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[MUSIC]
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This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast.
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I'm your host Kyle Thompson.
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Let's get into it.
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Our guys today, we've got a return guess on the podcast.
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His name is Justin Briarley.
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So Justin is the host of Unbelievable.
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That's a radio show and podcast on premier Christian radio in the UK.
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He's the author of the book Unbelievable Why After Ten Years of Talking with Atheists.
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I'm still a Christian and he was on our podcast on episode 189 so you guys can check that
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out as well.
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So in this podcast, we spent about half the time, they're really the beginning part on
0:44
this thing that they're doing over there with premier Christian radio, which is called
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the big conversation.
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So these, they bring these individuals, usually a Christian and usually an atheist to talk
0:53
about these big topics.
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And so we had Francis Collins actually opposite Richard Dawkins and so we really, really dig
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into that because Richard Dawkins kind of admits that there is a pathway to convince
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him that God could exist, right?
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And it was, it was a stunning admission.
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So we talked about that.
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But also Justin's got a book that he's going to be writing that's going to be coming out
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next summer.
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And it's about the meaning crisis in our culture.
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So we talked about that a little bit.
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And then I also got into it with him, not got into it with him.
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It was obviously a very, very polite conversation, but towards the end, I was able to ask some
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questions that I wasn't able to get to during our first interview.
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And I asked him a question about specifically why he had this debate on his show where there
1:29
was a transgender person, so a male that thinks he's female and then a Christian pastor and
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how he and the Christian, the Christian pastor used feminine pronouns when referring to this
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man on the interview and how that was just shocking to me, that people that are Christians
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that, you know, are supposed to be about truth and all these different things.
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And so I asked him about that.
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And again, it was a very, very cordial conversation.
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He wasn't mad about he was actually appreciative as soon as the, you know, the interview ended
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that I pushed him so hard on that.
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And I really did appreciate his answer, even though I did come away vehemently disagreeing
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with his position.
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And we talked about a few other things in the podcast as well, but I'm not going to keep
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him from you any longer.
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So guys, without further ado, let's get into it.
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Justin Briarly welcome back to indaunted life of man's podcast.
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Oh, thank you, card.
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It's an absolute pleasure to be with you again.
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I'm just glad that I didn't say anything that make you made you too mad the last time
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that we were, I was on your show or you were on my show because, you know, every time I
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talk somebody with a British accent, I feel like I really have to mind my P's and Q's and
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make sure that I'm pronouncing things correctly.
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But you were just telling me off air and I went ahead and hit record.
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You guys have a new podcast out that actually sounds really awesome.
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So I'll just tee you up.
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You talk about the podcast you guys have.
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Unapologetic from Premier Unbelievable is the new podcast.
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It's basically a weekly show where I sit down with a thinker to talk through some particular
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issue around Christian faith, evangelism, theology.
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So we just started it up just literally two weeks ago.
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And yeah, we're really excited about it, we've got some big, big people, big names coming
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on it.
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John Lennox plus some really interesting guests, you know, across the kind of apologetic science
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and faith.
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And so yeah, unapologetic, we call it unapologetic because it's about apologetics, but we're
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not sorry about the Christian faith.
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We believe the good news of Jesus is worth sharing.
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And it's just, it's just about giving Christians the confidence to do that.
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So that's, that's what it's all about.
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That's excellent.
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We'll make sure that we link to that in the show notes guys.
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I mean, everything that you all put out is you could tell that it's been thought through
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and that you're really putting full effort into it.
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So I'm sure that'll just be another great offering from you and everybody else.
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And guys, if you're listening to this on time, we're right in the middle of another one of
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those great offerings.
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And that's the big conversation.
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We're actually right in the middle of season four.
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Again, if you're listening to this on time, so first of all, congrats on the fourth season
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of this, by the way, that's pretty awesome.
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But for those in the audience that are actually unfamiliar with the big conversation, kind of
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give us the 30,000 foot view of that.
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Well, look, it started back in 2018 and we got together with the Templeton Foundation
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in the US who are a kind of grant making body.
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They help people to think through the big questions of science, faith and philosophy.
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And with their help, we were able to bring some really big thinkers together in a video
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studio for the first time.
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It was really when we launched our YouTube channel through the big conversation.
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The very first guests I had for the very first show were Jordan Peterson and Susan Blackmore.
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Susan Blackmore is an atheist psychologist.
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Jordan Peterson probably needs no introduction for your audience, Kyle, but a well-known
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Canadian clinical psychologist who was just on the cusp of going absolutely stellar at
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the point where I managed to land him.
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And so, yeah, from that point, we've just seen the series really blossom, loads of really
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great thinkers who we've had from both sides of the, you know, of the fence.
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So lots of significant atheist people like Stephen Pinker, Daniel Bennett, Richard Dawkins
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as just, you know, come on the latest series, opposite some big Christian thinkers as well.
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So opposite people like John Lennox and Enthi Wright and Francis Collins and others.
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So yeah, we're excited about this new season, which is all about tackling the big questions
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with big thinkers, starting on the kind of whole science and faith thing.
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But we've got an episode coming up on the consciousness and the mind.
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We've got an episode on conversion.
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We've got Michaela Peterson, interestingly, this season is going to be one of our guests.
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He's obviously the daughter of Jordan and yeah, so we've got some really interesting
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dialogues and pairings coming up.
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Yeah, I actually want to read through some of these names and I don't know how to pronounce
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them all perfectly.
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So they'll always, they'll sound better.
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Feel free to hop in and connect me.
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But June 3rd, Rowan Williams and Paul Kings North conversion, Kings North conversion culture
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in the cross, June 17th, Ian, McGill, Chris and Sharon Dirks, is there a master behind
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our minds?
5:32
And that's actually from a live event that's being filled to an unbelievable the conference
5:36
in May, July the 1st, Graham Opie and Guillaume Bignon is a French name.
5:42
He's got a great story.
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He was converted as an adult.
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He was a French atheist and he's got the most extraordinary conversion story, both an intellectual
5:49
and experiential journey.
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He's opposite Graham Opie, who's one of the best known atheist philosophers in the world.
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He's from Australia.
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So that's going to be a great conversation.
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Yeah, they'll be talking about rationality, religious experience in the case for God.
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And then as you mentioned on July the 12th, Michaela Peterson, Jordan Peterson's daughter
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and John McCray are millennials and Gen Z ready to believe in God.
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That is actually a free live online event.
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So guys, there is a link in the show notes to where you can go and check that out, make
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sure you register for that.
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And July the 15th, Lord Martin Reese and John Wyatt, robots, transhumanism and life beyond
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earth.
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Now, you're probably thinking that I missed one, but I did and I'm just teeing it up here
6:22
at the end on May the 20th, you kicked off season four with an absolute banger.
6:27
So highly respected scientists, Francis Collins debated noted atheists as you just talked
6:32
about Richard Dawkins, and this is actually Richard Dawkins's first substantial debate
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in 10 years with a Christian academic on the existence of God.
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And so how did you guys pull off getting these two together?
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And then I was a little disappointed that they weren't in the same room.
6:46
I would have loved to have seen these guys breathing on one another.
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So why wasn't it done in person?
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Well, just because they're both busy guys and Francis Collins schedule just didn't allow
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him to come to the UK.
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So we decided to do it remotely as so many things are done like this, but it was still
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a really good discussion, actually.
7:04
I mean, I always prefer doing things in person if at all possible, but no, I mean, how do
7:09
we pull it off?
7:10
I mean, I've got to be honest here, Kyle, I wasn't expecting Richard Dawkins to say
7:14
yes when I emailed him because he's kind of been on the show in a kind of ish way in
7:20
the past.
7:21
I managed to get a kind of a brief interview with him, a kind of debate he did with John
7:25
Lennox in Oxford several years ago.
7:27
I kind of then brought him on by phone for a kind of three way discussion on the Old
7:31
Testament several years ago as well.
7:33
I hadn't reached out to him in a while though, and I thought, you know what, it's a long
7:37
shot.
7:38
And I know he says he rarely does these kinds of discussions, but I thought I'm going to
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try.
7:42
So I have his email address and I send him one about around Christmas time, actually.
7:46
And I said, would you be interested in coming on with Francis Collins, who I knew was interested
7:50
in coming on.
7:51
And to my great surprise and delight, he said, yes, I highly respect Francis Collins.
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So actually, that's someone I'd be interested in talking to.
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So I think we just had the right person at the right time.
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And so yeah, and they actually had a really good nature discussion.
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I mean, they they disagreed, obviously.
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But one thing that I noticed is that I think I think Richard Dawkins has mellowed in recent
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years.
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I think he's no longer quite the dogmatic atheist that maybe he wants was.
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And he's realized he's actually closer, ironically, to some people on the Christian side than
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some of his secular peers for similar reasons to, you know, what we've talked about before.
8:29
People like Jordan Peterson and Dave Rubin and others who don't necessarily call themselves
8:33
Christian, but find that they're more easy bedfellows often with Christians than with
8:36
some of their secular folk because Richard Dawkins, as you probably know, he's kind of
8:40
had his own sort of cancellations by from from his own community.
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He got rescinded as humanist of the year by the American Humanists Association because
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he has been critical of the transgender movement and things like that.
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So it was interesting because I think I think he felt actually Francis Collins, at least
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was someone he had a highly high respect for in terms of his work in genetics, also because
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they had shared a mutual friend in Christopher Hitchens, well known atheist who Francis Collins
9:07
actually was also a friend of and helped in his final, you know, diagnosis for esophagal
9:13
cancer by providing a genomic analysis of that cancer and helped to extend his life in
9:19
his final month.
9:20
So there's a lot of, you know, a lot of mutual respect in that way and that led to a really
9:24
good conversation between them.
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Absolutely.
9:57
You could tell that there was a mutual admiration for one another and we're going to dig into
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several points of the interview here in just a second because I do want to ask you, but
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I would be remiss if I didn't think and mention this from the very top, there seemed to be
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a little whistling past the graveyard from both of them to start the interview because
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COVID really wasn't a center point.
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I would have much preferred them not even talk about COVID, but they both kind of cascaded
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people from the very beginning that, you know, have chosen to forego the COVID vaccine essentially
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as simpletons that have been taken up by conspiracy theories and neither one made any mention
10:26
of regard for natural immunity for adverse effects from the vaccine from every time there's
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like a data drop from one of these manufacturers that it shows the efficacy of the Jabs is kind
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of not what we were sold.
10:38
But then Collins later in the interview, he furthered the now almost entirely debunked
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theory that COVID jumped from an animal to a human at a wet market in China.
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And I was flabbergasted.
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I'm like the only saving grace is if this was recorded like a year ago or a year and
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a half ago, but you know, he basically said everyone that disagreed with him was a conspiracy
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theory.
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So for me, if I'm being honest, Justin, that was a sour note on the whole discussion.
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Now, as I'm going to ask you about here in a second, there were, there were things that
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would more than overshadow that from the conversation.
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But if you gotten that feedback, because I was just like, this was a completely unforced
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error, I thought.
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Yeah.
11:11
I fully appreciate that there are a lot of people who would say actually that the evidence
11:15
is on the table that what France has presented there isn't, isn't the full, full picture
11:19
by any means.
11:21
This was recorded sort of back in February.
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And I think that maybe was, you know, there was still some question marks, even at that
11:27
time over, over exactly, I think the evidence has become clearer since then.
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So I don't know where the Francis would, would maybe, you know, put that slightly differently
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now.
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You know, I hadn't invited them in all honesty to discuss the sort of origins of COVID.
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It was, I was more kind of asking from a theological perspective, what their position was, just
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in the whole, the whole idea of, you know, viruses and God and creation and so on.
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But yeah, I mean, they were on the same page, certainly.
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In fact, I was surprised at how much they were on the same page in a funny way, because
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I thought Dawkins might, might be a little bit more skeptical in some regards about some
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of the COVID procedures and, and so on, and, but, but as it turned out, you know, they,
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they were not dealing along and agreeing wholeheartedly for most of that.
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So, so perhaps they, perhaps in a way, Francis knew that as well that the Dawkins was pretty
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much on the same page on that one.
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Yeah.
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And I would say again, if, if you're really that offended by that when you're listening
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to that conversation, just roll your eyes and move on because those, those weren't really
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the hinge points of the conversation.
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I just thought it was a little odd, but I do want to talk about this exchange that happened
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early in the debate.
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When you ask Dawkins about the new atheist movement and how that's changed over time and how there's
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been some, you know, political underpinnings of that and how cancel culture has gotten
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involved.
12:44
You mentioned that just second ago as well.
12:45
He answered this way, I'm not that interested in that kind of thing.
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I'm interested in what's true, not how many people think this or how many people think
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that if there are trends in society towards this movement or that movement, who cares?
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I mean, let's talk about what's true now, Justin.
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That was actually pretty hilarious to me because Richard Dawkins seems to care a whole heck
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of a lot about people thinking this or thinking that he seems to care very deeply about the
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trends in society.
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And he is actively trying to trend society towards atheism and he's made a crap ton of
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money in the process of doing that.
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So you didn't ask him about it.
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He didn't press him about it, but don't you find that a bit disingenuous from him?
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Maybe.
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I mean, what I was really kind of wanting to, what I wanted to open up potentially that
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point, but I think he wanted to divert away from it was the fact that in secular culture
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that we have seen the kind of the secular side of the equation actually splitting into
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lots of different categories, you know, the people who affirm various political ideologies,
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transgender, race, gender, sexuality and everything else.
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And the fact that in a way, you know, and I didn't kind of go, I didn't press this as
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much as I could have perhaps, but the new atheism really, in my opinion, has kind of
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fallen apart because they just couldn't agree on anything.
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Once they'd agreed that God was a bad idea, they couldn't then agree on anything beyond
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that.
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And you've had all of these warring factions.
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And I think, as I said earlier, Dawkins in a way has become a victim of that because,
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you know, even some of the people who crowned him as humanist of the year, only 10 years
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ago or something have now turned on him and said, you're no longer welcome because you're
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not affirming this, that or the other, you know, sort of ideology.
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So that was kind of what I wanted to kind of maybe open up and just see if he had something
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to say about that.
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But as you say, he kind of, you know, swerved that one a little and said, look, I'm just
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interested in what's true and what's not.
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I don't want to get into kind of political debates about these things.
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But the reality is, as you say, you know, Dawkins has a long history of kind of, you
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know, doing exactly that, you know, making, you know, taking a very particular side on
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a particular social issue.
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So, you know, to suddenly sort of, I think he's realized in a way, in a funny way that
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what's good for the goose is good for the gander, that if you're going to kind of put
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your all in on religion and that kind of thing, well, hey, you might just find that that comes
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back to bite you when you try and put an opinion in on another issue that people find almost
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sacrilegious or is very close to their heart.
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And so I think he's been surprised probably, if I'm honest, by the strength of opinion
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and, you know, the backlash that he's received when he has dared to say something even slightly
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critical of particularly the transgender issue.
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So yeah, he kind of, I got the sense that he wasn't keen to kind of open up that kind
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of worms with me.
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It's fine.
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I hadn't invited him there to debate those issues and he kind of, he kind of sidestepped
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of it.
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Well, and right after that, he said, can we please talk about science and yeah, you pull
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out your binder and it's like, okay, let's talk about silence or, you know, science.
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But it does seem like that's becoming a red pill moment for a lot of people.
15:51
You even have prominent liberal folks that like, you know, Joe Rogan or a Bill Maher saying
15:55
things that seem very right wing now because especially in this country in the United States,
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the left wing of the party of the Democratic side of things has gone so unbelievably far
16:03
to the left.
16:04
It's unrecognizable to a lot of people now.
16:06
But really just in the big moment of the big conversation between these two happened around
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the 35 minute mark.
16:12
So guys, if you go and watch this or listen to us later, it's around the 35 minute mark
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depending upon where the ads are.
16:17
But Colin said this, but you said that, well, it's happened just because of the laws of
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physics.
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I want to take this back to that step.
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Where did those come from?
16:27
And this is how Dawkins responded.
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Well, let's get to that then because you keep getting to that.
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I believe that's a very profound if somebody, again, he's just talking.
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So if somebody was going to convince me of the need for a God, it would be there.
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It would not be in my own field of biology.
16:44
And you know, I was paying attention.
16:46
You know, I was watching the video and all that, but I was just like, whoa, wait a minute.
16:50
Like that was the stop the press's moment because Collins is like, Hey, laws of physics.
16:55
Like that's not your world.
16:56
But where did those come from?
16:58
And to hear one of the one of the most rude, smug, self-righteous people on the planet
17:03
on the atheist side of things, to admit that there is a possibility that he could be swayed
17:09
on God was shocking to me because I expected Dawkins to be the guy to be like, if someone
17:14
were to actually convince me that God was real, I would assume that my brain will have
17:19
would have stopped functioning that I had, you know, when you've heard atheists use that
17:22
type of thing as well, but that was shocking for me, Justin.
17:25
Was it wasn't for you when you heard it live?
17:26
I was.
17:27
I was like, I was like, whoa, that's quite quite the admission.
17:31
That's more than you would normally hear.
17:33
And as I say, I think that's partly why I say he's mellowed a bit because it would have
17:37
been unusual to hear even that much of a sort of an admission that hey, there could be a
17:42
case for God in this particular area.
17:45
I think in that way, you know, I've heard interestingly similar things from people like
17:49
while he was with us, Christopher Hitchens, who also said something like the fine tuning
17:52
of the universe presents the most significant challenge to his sort of atheist perspective
17:57
because it does feel like there's a really strong argument there.
18:01
And so it was interesting to hear Dawkins also say, and I think one of the reasons is simply
18:07
that it's much harder, I think, to avoid the kind of philosophical metaphysical questions
18:13
that you have to arrive at when you get to something like, where did it all come from?
18:18
And as far as I can see, atheism has very little to say to that, actually.
18:22
There's very little resource for atheism to kind of counter the fact that there is anything
18:29
at all seems remarkable.
18:30
The fact that there are these laws of physics, which seem so elegantly formed and the numbers
18:35
that are involved to allow life to develop in the universe.
18:38
Again, it seems like that's one of the areas where quite frequently I find atheists are
18:43
at least the most open to saying, well, there might be something here.
18:47
Now, of course, the conversation went on and it turned out, you know, Dawkins still doesn't
18:51
like the idea, but this was also a significant thing for me is why doesn't he like the idea
18:57
of God as a potential explanation for where those laws come from?
19:01
And the reason he gave, really, was he just doesn't like the idea.
19:05
I mean, it wasn't really a kind of, you know, I've got a really cogent argument for why
19:09
God can't be an explanation for this.
19:11
It was like, it just doesn't like the concept of a kind of God behind it.
19:16
He prefers us what he calls a simple explanation.
19:19
He says, I'm so in love with the idea of evolution, which is this idea that complex
19:23
things come from very simple sources.
19:25
He said, the idea of a complex being like God being behind the whole show, that just
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doesn't feel right to me.
19:32
So it was more a kind of an argument from emotion, if I'm honest, than an actual argument from
19:37
reason, because actually for me, well, firstly, I don't agree with him that God is some kind
19:42
of complex explanation, I think, in a sense, God is the most basic, simple thing of all
19:46
because it's the thing that grounds everything.
19:49
It's just not made of physical parts like the universe is, and that's just, you know,
19:54
by definition what God is.
19:55
But at the same time, it was interesting because it was more about dorkin sort of sense that
20:01
I just don't like the idea of God, and that's why I'm choosing not to see that as a satisfactory
20:06
explanation.
20:07
And he kind of said it in as many words.
20:09
He said, I suppose that you could call it a presupposition.
20:13
And that for me was another really interesting admission that, you know, everyone has their
20:17
biases and that dorkins, at least on this occasion, was willing to admit, have an atheistic
20:21
bias that I just don't like the idea of God as an explanation.
20:24
And I was quite pleased that he was sort of honest enough to say that.
20:27
Yeah, I was shocked.
20:29
I think if you had put him opposite just about anyone else, I don't know that you would
20:33
have gotten him in such a jovial mood where he would have given you that type of feedback,
20:37
which makes me wonder about some of these ardent public atheists is that are they kind
20:43
of buying into their own thing?
20:44
Are they higher on their own farts?
20:46
Can they admit when they don't actually know something?
20:49
But you know, for me, I think part of the emotion, Justin, if I were to guess is because
20:53
he does he knows that if God's real, that judgment also is real.
20:57
And it's very easy to live your life devoid of judgment.
21:00
And just to say, I don't believe in any of that, but to have to think through giving
21:04
and accounting someday of the life that you've led and how you've dealt with people and not
21:09
like in a Muslim sense or in a Buddha sense, but in a very Judeo Christian sense that you're
21:13
going to be giving an account to God and you have to lean on the blood of Christ.
21:16
I think that's where the emotion gets in for him.
21:19
And guys, there's way more things that I could have brought up about this interview.
21:22
Again, it's in the show notes.
21:23
You can go check it out yourself, but Dawkins brought up the multiverse theory and every
21:28
time I hear someone bring up the multiverse theory, I just roll my eyes.
21:31
I think it's nonsense.
21:32
To be clear, Dawkins did not say he was a proponent necessarily or a believer in the
21:37
theory to be clear, but he brought it up as a reasonable explanation for the fine tuning
21:42
of the universe because that's what we were just talking about.
21:44
Now it's always shocking to me, Justin, that these really, really, really smart people
21:48
that always want to rely on hard facts and data and proof and all these different things,
21:52
they get completely romanced by this idea of the multiverse of which there are no facts
21:57
data or proof to back up.
21:59
Like it's just shocking to me.
22:01
So it's like, you can't fathom all knowing all just God, but yeah, let's just go ahead
22:07
and say there's a multiverse.
22:09
Help me, Justin.
22:10
It drives me insane.
22:11
It's an interesting point.
22:13
I mean, the multiverse, there's different versions of how you might get to a multiverse,
22:18
you know, from the scientific side.
22:20
The problem with it is it's completely unobservable by definition.
22:23
You could not physically observe such a thing if it did exist.
22:27
And for many scientists, that simply puts it beyond the realm of science.
22:31
You know, if you can't physically test for something or do an experiment that could in
22:35
principle reveal it to you, then you've got to ask, is it science or is it just an interesting
22:39
idea in someone's head at that point?
22:41
You know, there are those who kind of say, well, the maths predicts that something like
22:46
this could happen at the very beginning, what's called the expansion point of the universe,
22:50
that this would happen.
22:52
Again, the problem is it's highly theoretical.
22:55
So the reality is that I think a lot of reason people go to the multiverse, the only reason
23:02
probably Richard Hawkins really knows anything about the multiverse is because it's the best
23:07
thing on the table, apart from design, when it comes to our universe.
23:11
It's the next best option.
23:13
Is it a good option?
23:14
Well, actually, I don't think it is.
23:15
There's all kinds of actual good philosophical scientific reasons.
23:18
I think why multiverse theory itself is a non-starter for starters.
23:23
If physicists would say, if you have a multiverse, you have to have a multiverse generating mechanism,
23:28
which in itself would have to be incredibly finely tuned, the second problem is there's
23:33
a philosophical problem, which I won't go into full detail on, but it's called the Boltzmann
23:37
brain problem, which is that if there were a multiverse, then we should not expect to
23:42
see the universe.
23:43
We actually live in our universe is highly unlikely on a multiverse scenario because it's a very
23:48
big, highly finely tuned universe.
23:51
What we should be seeing is a very small patch of local order where it's much more likely
23:55
that you would be just a brain popping into existence and observing its surroundings and
23:59
then popping out of existence.
24:00
That's what you and I should be if we are actually multiverse.
24:03
That's far, far, far more probable than the actual universe we do exist in.
24:08
That seems to, again, suggest, well, we probably don't live in a multiverse scenario.
24:12
There's philosophical scientific reasons why a multiverse for a lot of people is a non-starter
24:16
anyway.
24:17
I think the main problem is that for a lot of people, it's kind of a get-out card.
24:22
It's a get-out card.
24:23
It's a get-out of jail free card from having to go down the very uncomfortable idea that
24:27
there might be a God who's actually designed this universe because that is the next obvious
24:34
conclusion that you would draw from this extraordinary nature of the fine-tuning of the universe.
24:40
I can understand why a lot of skeptics would reach for the multiverse say, "Okay, I don't
24:46
like the God idea.
24:48
Let's go down this route instead and put our cards on that table."
24:53
It's a really interesting one.
24:56
As to people's motivations, I guess only God knows ultimately exactly why people choose
25:01
what they choose.
25:02
Right.
25:03
I think you nailed it, Justin.
25:04
This is a way for them to explain things away because if you can say there's an infinite
25:07
number of universes, then obviously one of them is going to end up being finely tuned.
25:11
I do hear people talk about that.
25:12
Now, the weirdest thing, though, here's the really weird thing about the multiverse
25:17
hypothesis is if there is a multiverse, what it means is that there is basically every
25:22
possible thing that can happen will happen in a multiverse somewhere.
25:27
The really weird thing is that if you are an atheist who believes in the multiverse, you
25:31
have to believe that there is actually a universe in which someone called Jesus walked on water,
25:35
and water into wine rose from the dead because all of that is possible in a universe somewhere
25:43
in the multiverse.
25:44
So in a really bizarre way, it's possible that everything in the Bible happened if we
25:49
are actually living in a multiverse.
25:51
There's all those kind of weird kind of counterintuitive conclusions that come from believing
25:56
in a multiverse.
25:57
There's a universe somewhere where Richard Dawkins is the pope.
26:00
There's a universe somewhere where Kyle Thompson is the next Mark Driscoll.
26:07
I don't know.
26:08
It's a weird concept because everything that can happen will happen if there is a genuinely
26:15
infinite number of possible worlds out there.
26:17
Yeah.
26:18
It's just a mind-numbing thing.
26:19
I mean, the moment I mentioned the multiverse, I could even feel certain people in my audience
26:23
like short circuiting.
26:24
So I guess I am curious because sometimes when I listen to the debates that you do, Justin,
26:29
or the ones that you're moderating, I feel like they're impossible to follow.
26:33
And it's not because you're a bad moderator.
26:35
It's because the intellectual horsepower of your guests, sometimes it is absolutely unreal.
26:41
So I need you to, I guess, to make me personally feel better.
26:44
How often do you feel like it's impossible to follow the debates on your show?
26:47
Because when you have people going, you know, 20, 25 minutes down the rabbit hole of multiverse,
26:51
it's like, are there like 14 people on the planet that can keep up with that conversation?
26:55
Yeah, I mean, some of them have gone kind of really deep.
26:59
And there are ones where I've definitely struggled to keep up.
27:02
And I know that if I'm struggling to keep up, you know, I'm not saying that I know it
27:06
all, but I've been around the block and I've kind of done a lot of these conversations.
27:09
So if I know if I'm struggling to keep up, then a lot of people in the audience will
27:12
be.
27:13
And that's why I kind of tend to reserve those really highly technical ones to just occasionally
27:18
rather than making them really regular, because I want people to be able to join in, obviously.
27:22
I mean, there are some though, like it's not just science, it's like, you know, when I
27:25
had empty right on with James White, so James White, if people know, is a kind of reformed
27:31
Calvinist sort of scholar, differs strongly from Tom Wright, empty right on his view of
27:36
justification.
27:37
I got them together.
27:38
This was several years ago.
27:39
And that I was struggling to keep up because they were quoting Greek at each other.
27:43
And they were you, you know, it was, it was like, okay, and but they were having the time
27:48
of their lives, you know, debating each other on this, and I was just their truck desperately
27:53
trying to say, okay, can you just remind me what that means?
27:55
And can you, you know, so yeah, it's like that sometimes, but, but I think sometimes
28:00
it's good to actually, I think sometimes, as long as you don't take it too far, it's
28:05
a good thing to kind of challenge your audience, to kind of force them to kind of get it, just
28:10
be slightly outside of their comfort zone, because often that's the beauty of your podcast.
28:14
You can rewind.
28:15
You can listen again.
28:16
You can maybe go look something up.
28:17
I always feel like if I kind of know everything that everyone's going to say in a podcast,
28:21
I'm like, well, you know, was that a good use of 50 minutes of my time?
28:25
If I felt like, hey, there were things in there, they said that I wasn't really sure
28:28
what they meant, but maybe actually I'm going to go and find out then, then I think maybe
28:32
I've been stretched.
28:33
And that's, that's never a bad thing.
28:34
Absolutely.
28:35
I think that that's a good thing as well.
28:36
But there, there are some where it's just like, all right, for the last 20 minutes, I,
28:40
I'm not sure they've kept speaking in English, because I remember that one within T right
28:45
in James White being like, I know I speak English.
28:47
I'm pretty sure I speak English, but I don't know what these guys are saying.
28:51
It just didn't compute to me.
28:52
So, you know, in terms of, you know, we'll, we'll kind of put a bow on the Collins and
28:55
Dawkins interview.
28:56
I personally find Dawkins to be an incredibly unimpressive human being personally.
29:01
I just don't feel like he's, there's a whole lot to him, especially with his philosophical
29:04
takes on things.
29:05
So I obviously thought that Francis Collins won the debate if there is such a thing.
29:09
So from the feedback that you've gotten, you know, who do, who do most people think won
29:12
that debate?
29:13
And I'm going to make you not be a polite Englishman for once.
29:16
And you're going to tell me who you think won the debate.
29:18
All right.
29:19
So tell me.
29:20
It's, it's so trickism because inevitably everyone, you know, is rooting for their person.
29:24
So, so, you know, most of the atheists who've been in touch, you know, you know, have said,
29:28
yeah, they think Dawkins won it.
29:31
Most of the Christians say Francis did.
29:32
I mean, not all Christians, let's face it, our fans of Francis Collins either.
29:36
So I had quite a lot of people saying, couldn't you get Dawkins on opposite someone else?
29:39
That this person or that person, but you know, this was the match and this was the people
29:44
I wanted to bring together.
29:46
Most of the feedback though is actually just been actually about how glad they were that
29:49
it was a really good substantive discussion.
29:52
They were so glad that Dawkins was willing to make some of those concessions that we've
29:55
already talked about.
29:57
And to that extent, a lot of the atheists who've been in touch, they haven't sort of decided
30:02
to pick a side about who won or who didn't win.
30:04
They've just said, this is why I listened to Unbelievable Justin.
30:07
This is why I listened to the big conversation because you brought these two people together
30:10
and they had a good, honest discussion and they left as friends.
30:14
And for me, that's a win.
30:17
My hope is that, you know, for a lot of the atheists who do listen, I think, I think there
30:22
was plenty in there that will have helped to say, actually, Christianity is an intellectual
30:27
option.
30:28
Okay.
30:29
No, it's probably not going to answer, have answered all of your questions in this one
30:32
discussion.
30:33
But actually, you can have a solid Christian faith and you can believe that, you know,
30:39
because there are good reasons to believe that there's a God behind this universe and
30:43
that there are answers to the reasons why, you know, suffering and evil and viruses and
30:47
that kind of thing exists.
30:49
I think one of the sort of, for me, one of the most interesting moments was when Dawkins
30:56
really went for Collins on the issue of miracles and he kind of took that view there at that
31:01
point where you can't be a good scientist and believe in all this crazy stuff that happened
31:06
in the Bible kind of thing.
31:07
And I thought Collins stood his ground very well there and just said, no, actually, I
31:11
think I can have it both ways.
31:12
I think, I think if there's ever a point in history in a person for whom this kind of
31:18
stuff makes sense, it's Jesus, something happened in those 30 years of his life, which transformed
31:23
the world.
31:24
And I've got, and I think we've got good reasons to believe what they said they saw actually
31:28
happened.
31:29
And I was so glad for him, you know, as a, as a, you know, renowned scientist to stand
31:34
his ground and say, I'm also a Christian who believes that Jesus Christ really rose from
31:38
the dead.
31:39
Because that's where door, the end of the day, where the Dawkins believes in some kind
31:43
of dayist God behind the universe, well, maybe you can get him to that point, but it's not
31:49
going to save his soul, frankly, it's only meeting the person of Jesus Christ who's going
31:53
to do that.
31:54
And that's why I was, I was glad that Francis, you know, took it there in the end.
31:58
So is that your way of saying that you think Colin's one?
32:02
My sympathies were obviously with Colin.
32:04
So yes, I believe the stronger arguments are on Colin's side.
32:08
But if it's just kind of who, who had the best, you know, sort of debating style on the day,
32:16
it was probably closer to a kind of a draw than, than maybe, you know, Colin's wiping
32:21
the floor with Dawkins or vice versa.
32:23
You're just so nice, Justin.
32:25
You're just so nice.
32:26
Okay.
32:27
I don't want to go any further, but I will echo the sentiment that you've gotten that
32:29
I was shocked to listen to a cordial conversation because I think the same week that you released
32:34
it on your podcast feed, you release a classic replay from Lawrence Krause and Rodney Holder.
32:39
And I found Lawrence Krause to be the biggest jerk.
32:42
Like I, I like at one point, I'm like, this guy freaking sucks.
32:46
Like I don't want to hear him talk anymore.
32:48
He's so unbelievably smug.
32:49
Like it was just so unpleasant to listen to it just made me mad as I'm like riding down
32:54
the road.
32:55
So I was glad to kind of get that.
32:56
So to put a bow on season four of the big conversation, I know you're happy with it.
32:59
I'm assuming you're going to move forward towards season five.
33:02
Are there any changes or improvements that we can look forward to for season five?
33:05
Oh, for season five, well, we've hardly even begun planning for that, but we, we would
33:09
love to bring Jordan Peterson back on if he's, if he's available.
33:12
We tried to get him on for this season, but he just, he's a very busy man.
33:15
So, but who knows?
33:16
It would be great fun to have Jordan Peterson back, you know, five or so years on from when
33:20
we first had him.
33:22
And there's lots of other conversations that I'm really interested in having.
33:25
I mean, there's, there's so many interesting thinkers out there.
33:28
Jonathan Hight.
33:29
I don't know if you've come across him.
33:30
He's, he's, he's a part of the American mind.
33:33
Yeah.
33:34
Coddling of the American mind.
33:35
It's a really interesting secular thinker who's, who I think is one of these interesting
33:39
Peterson S characters who's actually reevaluating the place of religion and saying actually,
33:43
you know, we, we, we can't necessarily live without that story that yeah, there's, there's,
33:48
there's, there's lots of great, great thinkers out there and we're, we're still well, we're
33:52
just about to start working on that one.
33:54
We've yet to finish recording season four.
33:56
So, so we've, we've got all that to come still.
33:58
Awesome guys.
33:59
Well, like I said, I said to everybody from the very beginning there in the show notes,
34:03
you can find all the information to that and then obviously stay plugged in with all the
34:06
stuff you guys have going on over there for whenever season five comes out and also the
34:10
rest of your podcasts and everything.
34:11
But one thing I did want to talk to you about as well.
34:13
So we'll transition out of, out of the big conversation is you mentioned whenever we were
34:16
emailing back and forth about getting this interview on the books that you are writing
34:20
a new book about the meaning crisis in our culture, right?
34:24
I think that's something that everybody's recognized and a lot of people are feeling
34:27
that.
34:28
But I guess, you know, for generic starters, why are you particularly so interested in this
34:32
topic of the meaning crisis?
34:34
You know, so much so that you would write an entire book, you know, what's kind of the,
34:37
the main thesis of the book, you know, when can we expect its release go?
34:41
Yeah.
34:42
So basically, I mean, it actually starts interestingly the book with the new atheism, the first chapter
34:46
is on the new atheism, but it's really a chapter on why I think the new atheism has failed,
34:50
why it's fizzled out effectively, why it's become quite old hat in a way.
34:54
And it's because, you know, when it was writing the crest of its popularity, there were all
34:59
these writers, you know, Dennett, Dawkins, Hitchens and Co, saying, you know, religion,
35:05
we need to ditch it because we're going to face this great new future where science and
35:09
reason basically lead us forward.
35:12
And, and those promises have failed this merely because we're actually living even in our technologically
35:19
savvy culture.
35:20
People are more depressed, more anxious, that they are, they are falling out with each other.
35:25
The culture wars have never been so, you know, so high.
35:28
And, and you've got to ask yourself, well, what exactly, what answers did the new atheism
35:32
bring?
35:33
Precisely none.
35:34
Because as I said, the problem was as soon as they'd agreed that they didn't believe
35:38
in God and that religion was evil, they couldn't agree on anything else.
35:41
It didn't actually offer any answers for how to live life because, you know, ultimately
35:46
science is great at what it does, but it does not actually offer you a way to live your
35:51
life.
35:52
It doesn't offer you answers of that kind.
35:54
And so the first chapter really deals with the fact that the meaning crisis in a way has,
35:57
has been amplified by people like Dawkins, you know, the, the rise of secularism because
36:03
what that was really showing us is that we've lost the story that Christianity has given
36:08
the West for the last 2000 years.
36:11
And but that we're still living kind of in the echoes of it essentially.
36:14
And so when we see people marching for justice, when we see people campaigning on trans rights,
36:20
when we see all of those kinds of political ideologies coming through, it's basically
36:25
people who have replaced the Christian story for a different kind of sacred story.
36:29
They've basically turned away from that form of religion to a new form of quasi religion,
36:34
because we're still meaning seeking creatures.
36:36
We're still fundamentally religious at our core.
36:38
It's just that the story that once shaped our lives now has to be replaced by something
36:42
else and people are reaching out to all kinds of these things.
36:45
But the problem is any religion that doesn't have Jesus at the center of it is going to
36:50
fail you.
36:51
Any religion that doesn't have grace, forgiveness built into it as Christianity does is going
36:56
to quickly become toxic and cancel culture and everything else.
36:59
So for me, that's, that's part of what's contributed to this meaning crisis because people don't
37:04
know how to live anymore.
37:05
It's why Jordan Peterson has become so fantastically popular among a certain generation, especially
37:10
of young men because they don't know who they are.
37:13
They're having an identity crisis.
37:15
They're having this, you know, this meaning crisis.
37:17
Suddenly, Jordan Peterson comes on saying actually fairly common sensical things, picking
37:24
up on some ancient wisdom, and suddenly he's like the new guru.
37:28
Well, whatever he did, he did it in a way that obviously connected with these guys.
37:32
But what the rest of the book really does is it teases out some of these thinkers like
37:36
Jordan Peterson, other interesting secular thinkers like Douglas Murray, Tom Holland,
37:41
the historian, Paul Kingsnor, who I've got on another edition of the big conversation
37:46
who recently converted to Christianity.
37:49
Some of the interesting scientists, brain psychologist Ian McGill Christ, who's, you
37:53
know, coming to see that the way that the brain itself bespeaks a kind of cause beyond
37:58
itself.
37:59
There's all kinds of interesting thinkers coming out of the woodwork who are now taking
38:04
a very different path to the new atheist and saying, we need to reconsider the religious
38:08
story.
38:09
We need to reconsider Christianity specifically.
38:11
And they're not Christians per se.
38:13
But they're coming back and saying, did we throw the baby out with the bathwater?
38:18
Maybe this Christian story has more going for it than we thought.
38:21
And every conversation I'm having, and I've been having these conversations now for the
38:24
last five or six years, is it's so interesting because the conversation has moved from that
38:29
kind of slightly arid kind of does God exist, you know, the new atheist kind of conversation
38:34
to a much more kind of, how are we going to live now in a post Christian culture?
38:39
And for me, that's where the conversation is moved to.
38:41
And I think the church has an extraordinary opportunity, actually, because people are
38:46
starting to realize that because they didn't get any answers from the new atheism, they're
38:50
looking again for where they could find answers and they're gradually finding that they're
38:54
not going to find it in these political ideologies, and that maybe, just maybe, there might be
39:01
something in this Christian story that, you know, their parents or grandparents or great
39:04
grandparents once believed in.
39:06
So that's kind of in a nutshell, you know, what the book's about, the kind of what we're
39:12
calling, actually, we've decided on the official title of the book is going to be the surprising
39:17
rebirth of belief in God, because I think there is, interestingly, the pendulum is swinging
39:23
back again after, you know, a good century or so of it swinging towards atheism.
39:29
I think that's very interesting.
39:31
I'm really excited to read that book and we'll obviously have you back on to talk about it
39:34
after it comes out.
39:36
But you mentioned Jordan Peterson again there.
39:38
And I feel like Jordan Peterson is so close.
39:41
Like whenever I listen to his videos or listen to his podcast, I feel like he's, he's right
39:45
there in terms of really understanding who God is and if I were, you know, one of my
39:49
goals is to have Jordan Peterson on our show at some point, I'm sure you can hook that up
39:52
for us.
39:53
Just make sure you put that on your to do list.
39:54
I'm a wedded.
39:55
But okay.
39:56
Excellent.
39:57
Well, the thing is, is like everyone likes to ask him, do you believe in God?
39:59
I would ask him, why would you want God to exist?
40:02
Like, I think it's a slightly different answer because I think Jordan Peterson came to his
40:07
biblical lecture series that, you know, was a YouTube phenomenon years and years ago,
40:12
with this overwhelming sense of awe as to like the hyperlinked nature of scripture.
40:17
Like he couldn't believe it.
40:19
But hearing him go on Joe Rogan podcast this year and talk about the Bible and the way
40:23
that he talked about the Bible to a man who doesn't even know for sure that Jesus existed,
40:27
Joe Rogan has questioned publicly whether or not this Jesus of Nazareth was an actual
40:31
historical human being.
40:32
I feel like he's so close, but I always have to throw this out there to people as well.
40:37
As much as I like Jordan Peterson, as much as I've spent hundreds of hours listening
40:40
to him and reading him and all those different things, I think people need to be very clear.
40:44
He's not a Christian.
40:45
He's not a pastor and he's certainly not your pastor pastor, which doesn't mean you
40:49
shouldn't listen to him.
40:50
It just means that you should take those things with a grain of salt, pray for him.
40:54
Like God doesn't need him to become a Christian, but can you imagine what that would look like
40:57
for society?
40:58
I just wanted to kind of throw that out there.
40:59
I don't have a question there.
41:00
The question I actually wanted to ask you before we move off in the new book, which again
41:03
sounds fantastic is the church Justin has accepted its position of being downstream from culture.
41:11
So culture is worshiping at the altar of Black Lives Matter of the LGBTQ revolution of the
41:17
insert whatever political party and your favorite thing to talk about.
41:20
QAnon, if you're on the ride or being an ultra Magga or whatever the thing is.
41:24
But when the church decided on when it happened to accept the position of being downstream
41:28
from culture and trying to look like culture and be like culture and get culture to accept
41:32
it.
41:33
I feel like that is whenever people stopped taking Christianity seriously, especially here in
41:37
the West, because if you're just trying to be a less cool version of the cool stuff that's
41:42
happening in culture, why are you shocked when people don't want to opt in?
41:45
I mean, am I crazy?
41:46
Yeah.
41:47
No, I think you're on to something there.
41:49
And I think it's kind of the problem with Christian culture, especially evangelical Christian
41:55
subculture, is that it's done a very poor job of basically just copying the trends of
42:00
culture.
42:01
And people can smell that a mile off when they know that you're basically just there
42:04
to try and attract them in with something that sounds a bit like Coldplay and looks a bit
42:09
like that latest video or whatever it is.
42:13
I think this is interesting to me, because actually this is something Tom Holland has
42:19
said.
42:20
Tom Holland is not, I'm not talking about Spiderman Tom Holland here.
42:22
I'm talking about the historian Tom Holland, author of the book Dominion.
42:26
And he again is a very interesting character because he's not conventionally Christian,
42:30
let's say, but he has, he's written this magisterial historical work on the way that Christianity
42:36
has shaped the West and the way that even the most ardent atheist humanist is actually
42:40
really a product of the Christian revolution.
42:43
But, but he has said, when it comes to, you know, what will attract people like him back
42:47
to church, he has said, it's not going to be, you know, you guys just doing the latest
42:52
thing and basically copying and looking like the culture.
42:55
I want something that feels really different that takes me out of this kind of quite banal
43:01
vapid culture.
43:02
And that's why he has actually started going back to church.
43:06
But the kind of church he goes to is a very ancient one.
43:09
It's the oldest church in London, in fact, he's got this very high Anglo-Catholic kind
43:13
of tradition, which, you know, to many people will just feel completely alien in itself.
43:18
But I think what he likes about that is it feels, it feels like it's from another world.
43:23
It feels like it's something that isn't, you know, just more of, you know, the same
43:28
trike cliches and the same kind of trying to keep up with the cultural trend stuff.
43:33
It just feels like it's just doing its thing and it's been that way for the last thousand
43:37
years or whatever and it kind of, it transports him because it says, no, this speaks to me
43:43
of a different world.
43:44
So there's that kind of thing where maybe church does need to just look and feel different.
43:48
It needs to be unapologetic about the fact that, you know, and the other thing he said,
43:52
and this was a really interesting one, and this was actually repeated by Douglas Murray
43:57
when I had a conversation with him and NT Wright, Douglas Murray and Tom Wright both basically
44:01
said, keep Christianity weird basically, don't basically try and turn Christianity to sort
44:08
of basically dumb it down and dilute it into whatever, you know, is deemed acceptable by
44:15
society today.
44:17
Because again, for exactly the reasons you've said, it then just becomes another option.
44:22
It's like, well, I might go to the church or I might go to my golf club because they're
44:25
basically the same thing at this point.
44:28
And to that extent, you know, it was so interesting to hear two secular people saying, if you're
44:34
going to be a Christian, be a proper Christian, you know, tell me about all the weird stuff,
44:39
you know, tell me about all the demons and the angels and, you know, believe that stuff
44:43
because otherwise it just feels like another kind of, you know, you know, dumb down version
44:48
of something that I can already have here.
44:51
So that was really interesting to me because I think, and I see that interestingly among
44:56
a lot of, you know, really intellectual people, when they do come back to faith, they come
45:00
back to quite a full bodied version of it.
45:02
They don't go for some kind of really trendy, modern, progressive, liberal version of faith.
45:08
They want something that's like really kind of like, you know, it's different.
45:13
And I think sometimes the church needs to grow a pair and say, this is what we need.
45:18
This is, you know, people aren't coming just to kind of have a, you know, a little add-on.
45:23
If people, if it's worth getting your life changed, then, you know, let's, that's give
45:26
people something that really makes a difference.
45:29
I think you may have stumbled on the, the exact way to describe it add-on, like it's
45:33
an all-a-car thing.
45:34
Yes, I will go ahead and have shrimp with my steak, please, because when people go, especially
45:37
to these mega churches here in the United States, it's an hour long, you know, you get
45:41
picked up in the parking lot, you get brought to the front door in a golf cart, you go get
45:44
your coffee and your chips, you go in there, you listen to a 20-minute rock concert, then
45:48
you listen to some, you know, dude that's, you know, wearing $700 sneakers telling you
45:53
this really cool TED Talk type, you know, sermon with a few Bible verses sprinkled on top that
45:57
he just kind of threw in last minute so he can still get the tax exempt status.
46:00
And it's like, what is, I could go do something else.
46:03
Like I could go watch a movie, I could go do something else entirely.
46:06
So this all sounds really awesome.
46:08
When is that book going to be coming out?
46:09
Do you have an idea?
46:10
It's going to be July 23.
46:12
So it's about, it's still, you know, a year or so away.
46:14
But it's just, and I want it now, can you hurry up?
46:18
I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, you're going to have to develop the Christian virtue of
46:22
patience, Kyle, because the book is still, is still in development.
46:26
But yeah, we'll just, you know that I am not patient at all.
46:30
You know that.
46:31
And I know you said that just to convict me, but let's kind of get off of that subject.
46:34
But in all honesty, that sounds fantastic.
46:36
And I feel like you are very, very well equipped to write that book because of the just long
46:41
track record of conversations that you've had.
46:44
And the thing is, is, and I'll just say this for me, I always put myself in your shoes
46:48
when I'm listening to your show and being like, what is Justin thinking right now?
46:52
Because he's hearing these things go back and forth.
46:53
Of course, you're watching the clock and you're watching for breaks and all that.
46:56
But you're absorbing this and you're able to kind of turn around your own brain as well.
46:59
It's kind of like when a person that's a dealer and poker, they're watching so many
47:03
hands that they're not playing in.
47:05
And so they get to just kind of be a fly on the wall and understand, oh, I would have
47:09
probably done this or I would have done that.
47:10
So I think you're going to be a great person to write this.
47:12
Now, what's funny about you coming back on the show, Justin, is I wasn't expecting you
47:16
to come on until you wrote another bestseller.
47:18
And so, you know, we can obviously do that in the future.
47:20
But I went back to my notes from our first interview and there were a bunch of questions
47:24
that we didn't have time to get to.
47:25
Okay.
47:26
I think we were a little bit short on time that day and all the different things.
47:28
So I have a couple of those that I think we can sneak in before you go out today.
47:32
So I want to talk to you about episode 232 of your podcast.
47:36
Okay.
47:37
Oh, you'll have to remind me.
47:38
Yeah.
47:39
No, no.
47:40
Tell me exactly what 232 is.
47:41
You're the brain.
47:42
I'll tease it up for you like because I hate when people do that, they're like, on page
47:46
three of the thing that you wrote, it's like, come on.
47:49
That was a episode called transgender people and the church and you had on two guests.
47:54
One was Christina Beardsley, who is a biological male that thinks he is a woman and is also
47:57
apparently somehow a priest in the church of England and an American pastor named Preston
48:02
Sprinkle.
48:03
Now, this, this episode was from years ago, guys, but, you know, I remembered it because
48:06
I remember something that happened in that episode that just caught me weird.
48:09
So in that episode, you kept using feminine pronouns when referring to Christina, who
48:15
is again, a biological male, which is to say male, right?
48:19
So in light of what the Bible teaches us about gender and, you know, the order of creation,
48:24
do you think it's appropriate to tickle the ears of someone that's experiencing, you know,
48:30
gender dysphoric disorder of some kind just to make them feel better or to, you know, pretend
48:35
like it's an altruistic politeness, you know, even though what they're feeling isn't true
48:39
or right.
48:40
I mean, can we not be like Jesus and directly point to the sin, point out the sin without
48:47
crushing the sinner?
48:48
I was, I got to, I got to be honest, I was a little disappointed in you, even though I
48:52
have an idea of what you're going to say as to why you did that.
48:55
But I just, it was shocking to me that you continue to refer to this biological male using
48:59
feminine pronouns.
49:00
Yeah.
49:01
Well, I'm probably going to say what you're expecting me to say, which is that in that
49:06
kind of scenario where I've invited Christina on, you know, to represent the transgender
49:11
perspective, I'm not going to, I'm going to try and be as courteous as possible in that
49:17
situation.
49:18
And whatever my personal view is on, you know, the reality of transgender, I was happy to
49:24
use the pronouns that Christina preferred me to use.
49:27
And so to that extent, I thought I'm not going to, for me to have kind of gone in and, you
49:33
know, deliberately used he instead of she in that scenario, I think would have derailed
49:37
the conversation in quite a significant way.
49:39
We wouldn't have had a conversation, frankly.
49:41
And I wanted to be able to, to be able to have the conversation because that's what the
49:45
show is about bringing obviously different perspectives together for that.
49:48
I mean, and as you will know, you know, Preston himself also used the preferred pronouns of
49:54
Christina as well, because Preston's perspective is that that's something you can do in good
49:59
conscience as a Christian, even if you don't necessarily agree with the ideology of transgender
50:03
ultimately that there's a kind of, there's a balance that needs to be struck between
50:07
kind of standing up for truth, as it were, and actually, you know, just just doing things
50:13
that are helpful in that moment in and culturally and sociologically to get someone to the
50:19
table and to have a conversation in the first place.
50:22
So that's, that, that's kind of where I, where I stood on it.
50:25
It doesn't, you know, my own, in all kinds of conversations, you know, my own personal
50:30
views are kind of going to be put on the back burner in order to just facilitate the conversation.
50:34
And that was one instance where that might be the case.
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51:04
Yeah, I certainly understand that, that position.
51:08
And I guess the easy fix would have just been to use his chosen name, right?
51:12
So I don't care what you call yourself.
51:13
Oh, your name's Christina now?
51:15
Sure.
51:16
Yeah, let's go with that.
51:17
I think that would have been an easy thing for you and for him to do.
51:19
And I guess the question that I ask for people because most people would do the exact same
51:23
thing that you impressed and did.
51:26
But I guess the question I would ask is, is it actually loving to play into someone's delusion?
51:31
So would you, if somebody said that they were a dog, would you, in order to be polite, take
51:37
them on a walk?
51:38
You know, there are people that think, I think they're furries or something like that.
51:41
There are people that think they're furniture.
51:43
So in order to be polite to somebody, would you go over to their house and sit on them
51:46
as if they were a chair or a couch?
51:48
And I guess that's kind of where I put it like, I get it.
51:51
You don't want to be needlessly combative, I guess, or incendiary.
51:56
And I understand that as somebody who grew up in the South in America, like you want to
52:00
be polite to somebody.
52:01
But at the same time, some things are just flat out true.
52:05
Could you not have just said Christina the entire time?
52:07
Because I don't think that's loving that person by saying, yes, this is definitely something
52:11
that is realistic.
52:12
Yeah, in all honesty, I can't remember exactly how often or in what context I used the pronouns
52:19
rather than just the name of Christina.
52:21
To be fair, it was very sparingly because it just didn't come up in the normal cadence
52:26
of the conversation.
52:27
I wouldn't actually have to use he or she, you know, when I'm just directly addressing
52:31
people anyway.
52:32
So I'd have to go back and listen to exactly what the context was.
52:34
But no, I'm sure it did happen.
52:36
And to that extent, I guess, you know, I totally get that and I understand why you would take
52:42
that position.
52:43
I think different Christians just draw that line differently.
52:46
And for me, you know, yes, I would not sort of be comfortable, sort of affirming someone's
52:52
view that they are a dog or a chair or something like that.
52:57
I think, you know, because this is just a widely held position and issue in our culture.
53:05
And I'm just aware that there's lots of people who do.
53:09
I was in this instance, happy to just, you know, go with the flow in that instance.
53:13
Again, I don't think it's, you know, I, you know, even when I call someone an atheist,
53:20
you know, I don't think anyone actually is an atheist, you know, if I'm perfectly honest,
53:25
there's a part of me which where I don't think an atheist really exists at some level.
53:30
Because I think, you know, I believe in what it says in Romans, that we all actually have
53:33
the law of God written in our heart and that actually, you know, there's something there,
53:37
which, but I'm not going to kind of shove that perspective down someone's throat and say,
53:43
well, I'm refusing to call you an atheist because it feels at that point that I'm kind
53:46
of just banging on a particular kind of theological issue.
53:50
I know that's a bit different to the transgender thing, but for me it's about sort of, yeah,
53:55
which battle are you going to fight at which moment?
53:58
And I would rather kind of just be able to bring them to the table rather and let Preston
54:05
in the sense who I've invited to be the person to kind of have the discussion with Christina
54:09
to do the talking and I, you know, I think the audience knows that the fact that I choose
54:15
to use the pronouns doesn't necessarily indicate everything about my position on the subject,
54:20
you know.
54:21
Well, I appreciate that.
54:22
And the thing is, is you and I definitely disagree on this, but that's fine.
54:26
That's one of those issues that this is not a salvific issue that you being on one side
54:29
of the line or the other side of the line, you know, talks about, you know, your status
54:33
with Christ or something like that.
54:35
But I think for me, it's just whether or not a category is real.
54:37
So I'm kind of with you.
54:38
I never really thought about it that way that there's technically no one that is an
54:40
atheist.
54:41
It's kind of like spiritual, but not religious.
54:43
That's not a real category.
54:44
Like that's not an actual category.
54:46
That's just something that you said in your Facebook profile to seem nuanced and really,
54:50
really special and intellectual.
54:52
So we're going to come out of that, which might be a little bit incendiary or uncomfortable
54:56
for folks, not you.
54:57
I know you've dealt with this before.
54:58
So last question of the day, because I've heard you talk about this a lot and you talked
55:01
about it on your show, you talked about it in your book, but you mentioned CS Lewis often.
55:06
And he has seemingly had a tremendous impact on your personal walk with Christ and your
55:11
overall worldview.
55:12
We have a book list on our website called the 100 books every modern Christian man should
55:16
read.
55:17
And you know, the categories are finance or management or apologetics.
55:20
We have a category called CS Lewis, like he's, he's that big of a thinker in this space
55:25
that I think he warrants his own category.
55:27
And so what about his writings, I guess, intrigue you personally so much because you could find
55:33
some, you know, reformed, angry Calvinists are like, "CS Lewis is a, you know, he's terrible
55:37
for these 47 reasons and I have the Greek to back it up."
55:40
And like, I understand that there are people that get really uncomfortable with Chronicles
55:44
of Narnia and, you know, some of the imagery, but why is CS Lewis so important you?
55:49
I think he first of all, he has a fantastic story.
55:51
So I think it's the fact that his story of going from atheism to Christianity itself segues
55:56
so well with what he then writes about Christianity and about the, you know, his apologetics
56:01
and his argument for God.
56:03
So there's a great story behind it, which, and I love as much almost reading about Lewis
56:07
and his journey and his life as I do the actual books he's written.
56:11
But I don't know, when I was a teenager, you know, I fairly knew in the faith, but having
56:16
intellectual questions, Lewis was kind of one of the people I was immediately put into
56:21
contact with and he immediately spoke to me and I think it's because he had this ability
56:27
to just make, he was a master of analogy and example and he was able to clarify issues
56:35
so helpfully, particular problems or objections to God, you know, just in a sentence or two,
56:40
he'd be able to kind of really nail it and be able to show you why, you know, that's
56:44
not a problem or why there is a good reason to believe that there's a God.
56:49
So for me, it was, he was just a very compelling writer, a very, you know, he had that gift
56:55
of being able to use analogy.
56:57
He was also, it kind of awoke a kind of, the great thing that CS Lewis did was he put together
57:03
the intellectual and the imaginative together and for me that's why I think, you know, Narnia
57:08
is such a brilliant series of children's books is because it not only kind of tells you the
57:16
Christian story obviously through Auslanen's search, but it makes you want it to be true.
57:21
It does it by, as Lewis put it, it sneaks past the watchful dragons of our imagination.
57:28
By appealing to our imagination, Lewis actually helps us to see why Christianity is so good
57:34
and for me, that's, that's been one of the great things about Lewis's writing, not only
57:38
showing you that it is true, but why you would want it to be true.
57:42
So for me, it's, it's all of those together come to make him still one of the most unparalleled
57:46
Christian thinkers and writers of, you know, the last 150 years, there's, there's very
57:52
few people who come close and, and yeah, I think he will continue to hold that, that
57:56
kind of badge for for many years to come.
57:59
Yeah, I think it is an astonishing amount of depth that you get whenever you dig into
58:03
the writings of CS Lewis, there's always something there, mere Christianity is just one of those,
58:08
you know, cornerstone books for a lot of people in the faith, regardless of where you end up,
58:12
you know, on your theological journey or something like that.
58:14
So I'm glad I got to hear a little bit more of your perspective on that.
58:16
But Justin, we talked about everything on this podcast, but we're running out of time.
58:20
And so, and I got to get ready for our interview that we're going to be doing next summer.
58:23
Okay.
58:24
So I got to get all my, I got to get all my ducks in a row, but that's all for me.
58:27
Is there anything else you want to get off your chest?
58:29
I just want to say thanks for the opportunity for having me on.
58:32
And yeah, we would love, love people's input as we continue this big conversation series.
58:36
The big conversation dot show is the place to go if you want to watch the current season
58:40
for, but hey, if you've got people you want to see on the show, tell me about it, Karl.
58:44
And I'd love your listeners to tell me as well.
58:46
You can always get in touch and tell me what kind of conversations you'd like to see in
58:49
the future.
58:50
Well, I'll tell you right now, I want to, I want my dust up with the writer of Jesus
58:54
and John Wayne.
58:55
[inaudible].
58:56
Like I, I'm owed that and she needs to stop ducking me, Justin.
59:01
Okay.
59:02
I can't, I can't work miracles, but I can always put another email in and we'll see what happens.
59:08
Fair enough.
59:09
Okay.
59:10
Thank you for coming back on Undaunted Life.
59:11
A man's podcast.
59:12
God bless you, Karl.
59:13
Great to be with you.
59:14
There you go.
59:15
Guys.
59:16
I hope you enjoyed the return appearance of Justin Briarley on our show.
59:17
But before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost at Undaunted Life.
59:20
Our mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that for just spiritual
59:24
mental and physical resilience.
59:25
So I've got a lot of links for you today.
59:26
I've got a link to the big conversation website.
59:28
I've also got a link to the live event sign up for the Michaela Peterson and John McCrae
59:32
conversation.
59:33
And then a link to Justin Briarley's website, a link to the unbelievable show if you're
59:36
in the UK audience or the American audience, I've also got a link to episode 189 when he
59:39
was on our show back in the day and also a link to his book on Amazon.
59:43
All right, guys.
59:44
I got you completely covered on your Justin Briarley stuff.
59:46
All right, guys.
59:47
Thanks so much for listening to the podcast.
59:48
We do appreciate it.
59:49
Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five
59:51
star view.
59:52
If you want to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, you shoot me an email
59:55
to info@undaunted.life.
59:57
That's I-N-F-O at Undaunted Life.
59:59
You can follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for
1:00:02
everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way.
1:00:05
Let's go to www.undaunted.life.
1:00:07
And as always, we want to thank the band August Burns read for allowing us to use their music
1:00:11
for our content.
1:00:12
The music on this podcast is their song, "Cutting the Ties," which is off their 10th anniversary
1:00:16
re-recording of their album, "Leveler."
1:00:17
The links are in the description.
1:00:19
I'm your host, Kyle Thompson.
1:00:21
Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience.
1:00:27
Keep seeking the lion of Judah.
1:00:35
And I know you want it to start.
1:00:40
Be sure to let the world know you will be revived.