Let's be honest, most men drift. We wake up, we scroll, we work, and then we just rinse and repeat. And we know we're softer than we should be. That's why I built the 31-day resilience reset. This is not a devotional. It is a field manual for men ready to stop drifting and start fighting back. So, for 31 days, you'll train your spirit, mind, and body with scripture, prayer, and daily challenges that forge real resilience. Go to www.undaunted.life/31. life/31day to download this resource for free. That's undaunted.life/31day. Start your reset today. This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. Willie, welcome to the great state of Oklahoma. You've never been here right? >> Man, I love this state. >> You should. I mean, it's not that far from West State. I've I've said that. It's my Oh, yeah. I love love love this. I'm here a lot, too. I do a lot of things in Oklahoma. Um, but yeah, I just love I love the people. I love the bunch of aspects of Oklahoma. I love >> Well, the word is is that we got all y'all's good duck hunting up here now that it's kind of shifted to here in Arkansas. Is that the truth? I'm a novice duck hunter. >> It has shifted somewhere other than where we're at. >> Braleast couple seasons haven't been that great. I think it's Jay. I think Jay Stone is the problem. What do you think? >> No, the problem is we don't have any water. So, >> yeah, >> we need water. They've lowered the river that we hunt off of cuz they're supposed to be fixing it, fixing the lock and dams or something, which means we just don't have a lot of water and it's been really dry um back home. So, um no water equals no duck >> no ducks. I do know that much. >> Yeah. Well, that that's the kind of thing I tell people a lot. Like, >> well, we can blame Stone. >> Yeah. Well, I mean, I think he needs more blame in his life. But we love you, Jay. We love you. Um, but that's why I try to tell people all the time because I didn't grow up hunting at all. Right. I wanted to, but just no one in my family hunted. No one fished, no one camped. Like, no one did any of that stuff. And so, I just played sports and went to school. >> But, like, that's one thing that a lot of guys in the audience really like is cuz I'm just, I guess you could call it vulnerable, but I'm like, "Hey, >> I'm a novice hunter." And when I go out with people that know what they're doing, whether we're hunting, you know, ducks or white tail or, you know, orics, whatever, I just try to shut my mouth. Just shut my trap and just be like, just pick up on what they're saying. Don't try to pretend like I know something that I don't. Cuz then they they should be able to rid me cuz I'm a, you know, a grown man that didn't grow up doing that stuff. But it's like I want to learn so James and Eli, >> right, >> don't make beginning hunting mistakes in their late 30s. You know what I mean? Like they'll just grow up around it. >> It's probably smart. Yeah. smart to not talk as much and just learn. >> Well, for some reason we do that, you know, especially men do that. They >> It's like you make fun of people and then when it makes you not want to do it, right? It makes you become more intimidated and >> it's some kind of macho thing. I don't know. But yeah, it should be like, "Hey, that's fine." You know, if you didn't have the opportunity to grow up doing it. Um, and then you're right. Yeah, you can you can change up for your kids. Well, I've even told people like, you know, at the beginning of every year I do a episode called How to Avoid Being a Crappy Man in the Year and I have like, you know, 18 20 whatever things. And one of my favorite things on there is don't pretend like you know something that you don't, >> right? >> And so like because what what happens is you you do two things when you do that because how many people have tried to talk duck hunting with you and the moment they use certain words or phrases, you know immediately that person doesn't know anything about duck hunting? Mhm. >> Like if you don't know the lingo, you're going to look like a fool, but then you're also stealing an opportunity from somebody to teach you something. So like when people don't know anything about jiu-jitsu, >> but they actually want to learn. Like yeah, I'll ri them a little bit about not knowing anything about it, but then then I get to teach them and I get to like transfer my knowledge, you know, through that process. But you're right, most guys have too much ego. They don't want to >> stop long enough to >> people who Yeah. people who do try to you know that person do you know the person who always tries to like no matter what you say and they've got like some take on it you're like >> that's right >> you can just say >> I I don't have a clue I don't know what that is I don't know you know but there's there's certain people I've got one in my head right now that's like every time he's like oh yeah I know exactly you know and he goes through and you're like you don't you don't know that >> it's more empowering to say yeah I don't really know because like you know >> yeah just say I don't know I don't Yeah, because I'll get >> You don't know. How do you know? I'm like, well, obviously I don't. I just said I did. So, >> well, I've had people try to trap me before because I have authors on the show and I have different people on the show and I give a lot of opinions and right because you know, no one wants to listen to a podcaster that doesn't have a fully formed opinion about something like that would be really boring. Like, oh, I don't really know what to think about this news story. But like people would be like, well, what do you think about this book? And it's a book from an obscure author from an obscure like part of non-fiction. And I'm like, yeah, I'm not never heard of it. And it's like, you've never heard of who's its what's its? You've never heard of this book. And it's like, well, no. But I could like take a title of a book and pretend and then look like a fool if they ask me a follow-up question. It's just like, if you don't know, you don't know. Like just, hey, no, I've never heard of this author. Is there something in that book that you think would be beneficial to me to read? >> Right. >> Right. Just ask the followup and kind of go back. But we just, you know, we miss the opportunity all the time. >> Yeah. And you should be more Yeah. encouraging to not, you know, rather than again try to belittle where people like, you know, yeah, you just don't want to be like that. That's part of your ways to be not a crappy man. >> There's a lot on there, man. Uh ways not be a crappy man. I'm trying to think of something cuz it just came out. So, it's like uh hold your uh hold your sources for truth to a high evidentiary standard is one to where it's like if someone purports to say they know something about something but provide no evidence. you should not listen to that person. >> And I talked about that in a news context, but also it matters in a gospel context as well, >> right? Because if you can't defend your faith or whatever, which I mean, you you did that with, you know, Gossipeller and, you know, some other resources that you're doing. But and then it's other stuff like don't be late. Don't let sports ruin your night. Like the number of nights that I've ruined for people because my favorite team or favorite fighter didn't win or something like that. It's like how dumb is that? >> I learned that the hard way, man, >> with LSU. >> Yeah. Well, I still remember the game. Actually, I I ran into the coach who was coaching and I said, "I've just got one question to ask you." And I asked him this question about the guy called a timeout, but they had already exhausted all their timeouts, >> right? So, that's 15 yards, I think. >> Yeah. We lost the game and I was mad. So, that happened on a Saturday. Monday, I'm still mad about it. And then I thought, what am I doing? Like, what am I doing? >> How am I letting a bunch of 19year-old men not where I'm at, make decisions and win or lose, and it's in any way affecting my mood or my thought, and I said, >> "No more." >> So, I told the story recently, you know, it's embarrassing, but again, like I'm telling people things so they don't do it right? So, huge baseball fan, huge St. Louis Cardinals fan. 2011 World Series. I go to game two of the World Series. This is like bucket list thing, right? Cardinals won game one. >> Hang on. >> What's up? >> What year is this? >> 2011. >> This is when they played Oh, Rangers. >> Yeah. >> When did they play the Red Sox? >> I think I was 13. >> Okay. I was at I was in one of those. >> I was at one of those games and they lost, too. But I was >> Anyway, I acted better at that game than I did this one. So, I go to game two. Cardinals won game one. They're winning in the ninth inning. Jason Mott blows the save. Cardinals end up losing. Right. So, we had some friends that live just outside of St. Louis that were like, "Yeah, after the game's over, just, you know, stay here and then just drive back home tomorrow cuz, you know, 7 hour drive or whatever." >> Yeah. >> I was so overwhelmed with negative emotion because the St. Louis Cardinals didn't win a baseball game that I didn't play in, by the way. They didn't ask me to pinch, hit, or come out of the bullpen or nothing, right? You know what's wrong with them? Maybe they had won. Had they done that? >> I could barely speak, Willie. When I got to their house, >> here's a host family. They got a little baby. >> Is that when you're lost your vocal cord? >> Yeah. Well, you know, that was a longer road. Uh, but hey, that may have been when my vocal cord collapsed. Maybe that was the whole thing. >> That was a little celestial spanking, >> man. And I look back on that time because of that couple. They go to our church now. And they've been friends for 20 plus years. >> And I just think what a fool. What an absolute fool. Yeah. >> That I was to treat this family, this Christian family that opened their doors to me. >> And it was actually my wife, the the lovely Kelsey, undaunted wife downstairs that you met. She she looked at me one time this before we have we had kids. And I was, you know, kicking the dog cuz the Cardinals were losing a game in like May or something like that. >> And she's like, "You're you're kind of disgusting. I can't imagine having kids with somebody like that. You're a crappy man. >> Well, it was just cuz you want to talk about idolatry. >> Oh, >> right. Like cuz I'm idolizing cuz again with college football it's kind of weird cuz Yeah. It's like you're losing your mind about an 18-year-old that dropped a pass. >> Yeah. >> Like he's he's 18 years old. Like he's barely at of the age where he can trust a fart. You are getting onto his job. >> Well, he not not then, right? It was it wasn't at the time. Well, >> they were getting paid. >> Hey, when you listen to Coach O stories, which by the way, Coach O, that dude needs a documentary. You think we can make that happen? is A&E. You have any connections at A&E? You think we can get them? >> No, that documentary have to be on like HBO or something. >> Yeah, >> that would be insane. But yeah, I mean it's just >> you just said that's it. You and that's when you learn. >> Well, and so the thing is now is I can still feel that crazy ginger energy in me when I'm like watching a game. >> Mhm. >> And so what I've done for years now is if I really care about the outcome of a game, I just won't watch it. >> Mhm. >> And people are like, "But you're robbing yourself of all the excitement and all the whatever." I'm like, "No, no, no. Actually, what I'm robbing myself of is three hours of living and dying with every pitch, >> living and dying with every possession, living and dying with every 10 yards, right? >> It's just like, I'm just not going to do that. My boys will never see me lose my mind and cuss and break something or whatever because some play went the way that I didn't want it to go. >> Yeah. And yeah, I'm missing out on some fun comebacks and some walkoffs and some, you know, knockouts and whatever, but it's like it's just not worth it. It's so super not worth it. >> Yeah. >> But, you know, >> Well, yeah. I mean, there's a way that you can do both. I mean, you don't have to. >> I mean, I'm not emotionally mature enough to get there yet, Willie. But maybe, >> maybe when I'm 40, which is >> Did you not watch the other night the Steelers are playing the uh >> Ravens? >> The Ravens. So, I'm not, you know, I'm not I don't really have a dog in this hunt, but um um but it was so crazy at the, you know, because then cuz I'm kind of pulling for Aaron Rogers. I think anybody that's closer to >> our age, you're like, "Yeah, >> yeah, let's go." >> And uh and um and so looked like they had then the guy misses the extra. It was like cra I'm like, "Oh my gosh." Like it was so nutty. He like hadn't missed one in five years. And then they just go right down the field. It looks like it's over. The guy makes unbelievable catch and then their kicker missed it. And that's what I'm saying. That's such a >> You can't It's hard to find that anywhere other than sport, you know, like you don't have these like >> Right. >> And and like I said, it wasn't my team. It wasn't >> uh but I do I did enjoy it. And um so yeah, I kind of find that balance. But but I did you know that one time and I said no more. >> Yep. >> And like if we lose which now the way college playoffs are, you can lose now. It used to be if you lost it's over. You're done. >> And so it's basically the whole season was the playoffs and so now you've got a little breathing room and that's and then when I felt like LSU was out of it and then I Yeah. And then I got I get in I get into hunting mode and then I'll miss like four games in a row and uh which is kind of funny. Hey guys, real quick. I know a lot of you train for very specific things. So maybe you've got a mud race coming up, a mountain hunt, a 5K, or maybe you just want to keep up with your kids or you just don't want to let the old man in. But for a lot of you guys, whether you're working out at the Glowbo gym, or even your garage gym, you get there and you just don't know exactly what to do. 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That is six weeks free on the best-in-class physical and mental training app in the world. So, stop wasting time. It's time to get real fitness results. Let my friends at Mountain Guide the way. Again, go to mtntuff. That's mountain.com promo code Kyle. Well, one of my hacks is I will just not have a favorite team. And so, like I can watch college football. I can watch March Madness. I can watch, you know, fight or something like that. And I just don't have favorites. >> And so there are teams that I prefer to win and teams that I prefer to lose. So if LSU cuz I I generally like LSU cuz I met some LSU fans when I was in like high school or whatever. So I generally like LSU more than I like >> Mississippi State. But if like LSU is playing Mississippi State on Saturday and they're both ranked and it's, you know, a night game at Baton Rouge, which is one of my bucket list things to go to a night game in Baton Rouge and to eat some Cajun food all day. >> Definitely need to do that. >> But I will figure out who I'm going to root for when I turn the game on sometimes. Right. >> Yeah. >> But if it's just a good game, like this team versus that team, I'll just kind of all right. Well, I think I'll pull for Miss in this one just for funsies. Right. >> Right. >> And then if they win, like I get a little bit of a charge or whatever, but this is how my boys do it. five and three. They they'll see a team wearing orange and then they'll see a team wearing white and then they'll be like, "Well, I want the orange team to win." I was like, "All right, boys. We're going to root for the orange team this afternoon." >> Yeah. >> And so they don't know it's Clemson. They don't know anything about Davos Sweeney. They don't know anything about anything. They're just like, "Ah, the orange team is playing the white team, >> right?" >> And it's just it's just a lot more fun that way. But I mean, it really just for me just comes back to identity. Like where am I going to find my identity? And I used to find it in >> the sports teams I liked and then my hobbies or whatever. And it's just like, you know, with this podcast and with people kind of looking at the things I'm doing and saying and also here in this own household, it's like I just can't I just can't give my energy. >> It's so temporary. It's so fleeting. All the things that you you know, especially sports and I remember I taught a lesson one time and I said if you know the roster of the I think I said the New Orleans Saints because I was in Louisiana. If you know that more than you know the scriptures or the word, then there's a problem. Like, >> well, I want to like I want to talk to you about that because, you know, legacy has been something a word that's kind of been stuck in my brain for a while cuz I heard this guy on this podcast. He was he was talking about how he inherited like his grandfather's Rolex, right? So, it was just some, >> you know, Rolexes grandpa got, but I mean, I guess that's the only watch that, you know, continues to appreciate in value or something like that. >> So, grandpa gave the watch to dad, right, to his father. >> And so, he watched his grandpa wear that watch >> all the time. >> And he got to see his dad wear that watch. And then he got it. Same watch, right? It's an immaculate condition. >> And the the he's like he's not just wearing a watch, you know what I mean? He's not just like, "Hey, I have this watch so I can tell the time." He's like, "This is this is my grandpa right here. This is my dad." >> Right? >> And then I was trying to think like, "Hey, do I need to get some watches that I can like pass down to my boys and all that?" And then I'm like, "Oh, shoot. Rolexes are expensive." So, if you're a jeweler out there and you're a huge fan of the show and you just want to like send a couple of Rolexes my way, we got a PO box at the bottom of our website. But then I saw this video of this guy. He held up a Bible and it was like, so here's the normal size of the Bible and it was like this thick. >> Mhm. because his dad would read the Bible four times a year and he would take little pieces of paper and as he was reading the Bible he would jot down notes and he would like you know I didn't have this here as a prop I normally have this on the table but he would just take it and slide it in where he was taking the note >> and so his dad his dad's Bible was like that super worn in and I already told the story of you know this Bible you know when you were in um with us in in Jacksonville like I got you know the symbols put on right there Um, and my boys are going to see me carrying this Bible all over the place. And I'm like, that's legacy. And I saw that that video of that grandfather, that grandfather over uh Christmas, he recorded himself reading the entire Bible and he put them on like thumb drives or whatever. And that was what he gave his grandkids for Christmas. >> Wow. >> And he gave them like study notes and different things like that. And I'm sure like if you're seven and you're like, I really wish I had gotten a PS5 or something like that, you know, what's this? But at some point that kid's gonna be like, "Oh my gosh, >> my grandpa sat down in front of a microphone." But like that's, you know, legacy, you know. >> How many kids do you have? >> Two. Two boys. >> Make sure you have two Bibles that you >> Well, it's funny. I have two of these now, right? So I I got two of them. So there's no no splitting it and all that. But I mean, I just, you know, think about for you and really the the legacy of your family, right? And where it could have gone >> with Phil and K. >> Yeah. >> Versus where it's going now. And like >> that's where it was headed. Yeah. >> But just seeing like even you cuz Yeah. I mean there's the fame and the shows and the you know mass singer and there's there's stuff right like there's money and there's real estate and all the things >> but everything comes back to the gospel >> right >> for for you. And it's just like if you want to talk about legacy you can hand down property and that's great and you can hand down stuff and money and gold bars and guns and all that stuff and all that's positive. >> Yeah. >> But if you don't have a gospel legacy in your family and that's what I'm trying to start with my boys, you know. Well, you find out what's most important. One of the things I This may sound morbid, but I get a lot of um obituaries >> because we're mentioned in them. Duck Dynasty's mentioned in the >> and so it's fascinating and it's fascinating to read someone's obituary >> which is just a couple of paragraphs, right? >> Yeah. And it's not even generally you're not the one who's writing it about your entire life. >> Yep. >> And we were talking about the rosters of teams and and some of them are so sad like cuz you're you're like that's it. That's it. They love the they love the Oklahoma Sooners and everybody knew they were g, you know, and so which is what you hear a lot because a lot of times it's like they love to do this and they're they were always watching Duck Dynasty, you know, and so that's why >> and I see them from all over the country, you know, from Michigan and West Virginia and because that gets mentioned, it gets uh clipped and sent to me and uh but I just read them and I thought, "Wow, that's your whole life, you know, and just a couple of paragraphs and losing field this summer. We really thought about it, especially with stuff and what's left and what um um like mom is she's kind of got a little bit of what Phil had in a different way. Um but she never even ask it's it's amazing the stuff she doesn't ask about >> doesn't ask about the house or the stuff. It's none of that. It's just, you know, which is so strange, you know, like can you imagine, let's say you're 80 years old and you're you live somewhere else and you don't even come into this place, you know, but it's still here and it's still Yeah. >> And you wouldn't even come over. You wouldn't, you know, isn't that bizarre that you know, cuz you think like, ah, everything's here. My whole life is here. This is where my kids and all these memories are tied and this is where you had your studio. And then you just realize that so much most of it just doesn't matter. And that's what matters is the effect you've had on other people, especially with the gospel. >> Cuz that's what we talked about at the funeral. It was all about, you know, the lives he had changed and all that. We didn't talk about bottom lines and businesses and, you know, even ducks, you know, and even hunting for dad, you know, that got to where it wasn't even he, you know, couldn't do it. I wasn't even talking about it. So it was uh so you yeah you kind of learn you know hopefully you learn you learn from that going ah and so I've started to think that way and think you know time and what you put your time into and um you still have to work you still I think it's you know you still have to go out and you know um you still have to do normal things. It's kind of like with the sports like you can't be where you get where you're like when I watch anything you know like because you can still you know enjoy things and not and you don't want to be the guy that's all they're thinking about is you know cuz that gets kind of morbid you know where it's like >> where it's always looking at what what's life going to be like when you're dead but it is good to have a reminder like momentum >> I think you should think about it a lot you know you can just do the numbers >> like how old are you >> 39 turn 40 this year. >> All right. So you'll be 40. So just do the law of averages. How much you know >> 25 30 years 32 about it. We don't we don't have a longevity uh thing in my family. So 32 years that's 32 more summers that's 30 you know let's say it's 30 >> and you know and what happens is that starts getting less and less you know cuz you look going um you know you think about like I remember with my dad mom I' I'd be like >> in 10 years we're going to you know cuz like that's the way I thought like in business it was like we're going to >> and I remember dad going 10 years I'll probably be dead in 10 year you're like oh crap That's true. You know. >> Yeah. Well, I was even talking >> once you turned 70. And so, but then I thought about just all the ways like people >> live their lives, how they purchase things, how they it's like a we get a >> what a six-year note on the truck or a 30-year lease on a house or or you know, a mortgage and that's that's time, you know, and so just do the math of that and then as you get older, you're like, "Wow, you know, and then those time frames maybe not like there's even deals I get in today and it's like, oh, you can own part of this company and in 10 to 15 years it'll be and I'm like hang on >> like how much will I you know >> um >> uh so I think it to have that in mind I don't think it's a bad thing I think it's a good thing just to realize how short life is >> well because it brings everything back to the gospel I was talking to this guy named Brian who's um buddy of mine and he's in my coaching program called Dominion and I think he was talking about family member but he was like it was weird to be in a house watching strangers rummaged through grandpa's things. >> Mhm. >> To see what they wanted to buy at an extreme discount. >> Mhm. >> And then you think about, oh shoot, what about my house? What if I were like watching as a drone followed strangers around my house giving me a live video feed of people going through being like, "Oh, these underwear don't seem that bad." And all right, these baseball cards maybe, but no, those are I think I'll take those. 10 bucks. And then you're like, >> "Wait a minute." like all this stuff whether you're collecting things and and again I'm not anti-hobies and all that right like I think you should have some ways to blow off steam or whatever but you know last year and I've talked about this a lot on the show it's like we lose Phil >> we lose John MacArthur >> we lose James Dobson we lose Charlie Kirk >> we lose Vodie Bacham >> Yep. And it's like >> and Hulk Hogan >> and Hulk, you got to mention Hulk Hogan, right? You got Hulk Hogan in there. You got some other folks. But it's like >> for the sake of the gospel, you have these men that are like just giants. >> Absolute giants of the faith, >> right? >> And then you're like, okay, but who's going to take over for them, right? Like, who's going to replace Phil? Who's going to replace Vodie? Who's going to be the next Charlie Kirk? And what I try to start telling people is like you guys realize we don't get a onetoone switcheroo right? >> Like no one's just going to waltz in and be the new Phil Robertson. Like we don't get that. Like the the real answer is how many of us are going to start taking our roles as gospel spreaders, as heads of our household, as people that are going to catechize and raise their children up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. How many of us are going to start taking those roles seriously because we're not, you know, having to be like, "Oh, well, I don't need to say it. I'll just send somebody this sermon from, you know, John MacArthur and let him explain it, so I don't need to know it because he's going to he's going to know it for me." >> But again, like talking legacy, like that's the legacy of Phil. It was Bible always nearby and the gospel on his lips at all times. And you know, it's encouraging for me to, you know, get to spend as much time as I've been able to spend, you know, with your family and in West Monroe and and different things to see >> now the generational legacy of y'all's kids >> getting into gospel centered ministries and, you know, whether they're doing it professionally or just on the side, but even just people that aren't doing things on Instagram, but just in everyday life, just living a gospel- centered life. >> Well, um I think I think you're right. you don't you don't replace some people um you can't with like a one person like I see aspects of Phil in a bunch of people um so you can see that living out um um in in a lot of people and I think if you go back to so you got to go back to Jesus which is what you and I um believe and that, you know, believing the gospel and believing that, you know, God came down to earth and in Jesus. So when Jesus left, >> well, who's going to who's going to replace Jesus? Like, >> but I'm sure that was the thought. >> We need that guy. We, you know, this whole thing, >> you know, nobody can do it like he did. And I'm sure we're all like that. There's I'm sure there's people who depend on you and me and going, "Well, nobody can do that like Willie or nobody can do that like Phil or nobody can do that like Hulk Hogan." Um, >> of course, Hulk Hogan. Yeah. >> So, who's going to do that? So, what you saw was you saw aspects of Jesus in all of these men and women who had followed. And that's where you start and which is what he said was going to happen is you're going to, you know, then I'm going to live in you and through you. So the Holy Spirit shows up. So there's another whole thing going on where you can actually and then people will step up, you know, would um you know in Acts chapter 2, would Peter have gotten up and spoken like that if Jesus was still there? >> Probably not, you know. And now that it's on him, uh, which is so remarkable, too, that Peter did that because he had just screwed up. So, he just kind of screwed up. And, and I think a lot of men will >> once we screw up, we then we're like, >> we're disqualified, right? We're disqualified from, you know, we're like, we were talking about football earlier, like, >> you know, once LSU or Texas or Oklahoma, you know, once you've lost, then you've screwed up. you're beyond, you know, it ain't going to be you, it's going to be someone else. And so, I do think we disqualify um ourselves especially from our mistakes. And so, um, but Peter didn't. In fact, in act Act Acts chapter one, he was the one organizing everybody trying to replace Judas. >> Yeah. >> And I kept waiting for somebody to go like, "Who made you the leader of the South?" Like, aren't you the one who just, you know, we would have been, you know, can you imagine up at these churches we get to now, you know, and you stepping up going, "Hey," it'd be like, "You just screwed up and now you're up there at some meeting." We'd be like, "No, you'd be in a you'd be in the timeout box for for what? For five years, for and again, as we're talking about time and as we're talking about legacy and as we're talking about our life, that's a lot of time spent on the sidelines." I think we do we wait too long. And we're just like, uh, maybe one day, you know, maybe I'll figure this out so I can be more bold. I think um I can speak of Phil cuz I I I grew up with him and so I saw him. At the end of the day, it was really just simple. It wasn't crazy thinking and strategizing. It was just um someone's across from me. Yeah. >> I'm going to talk to them. I'm going to be kind. I'm gonna ask about their story and I'm going to tell them the good news. And there's one. And there's And I think that's why God um had a plan for us with the show. I think he had a plan. I think we were doing this before with on a smaller version. And I think God said, "I've got a more people that I want you to, you know, get this message to." And I probably would have said, "What's your plan? What do you think? You know, we're on the dead end of a dead end dirt road on a river. How exactly are we going to get the word out?" And he said, "Uh, just just wait. It'll, you know, and then voila, you know, we're um some of the most recognized people, you know, around, you know, at this time." And so um so it does it opens up the doors and then Phil then where he was doing that there then he figured out oh now we got this thing to we got the internet it reminds me of um on oh brother thou when uh when the grandpa and they're going in the radio station he goes Paby hey we going to press the flesh here you know we politic he goes we ain't one in a time we mass communicate and there's this like brilliant shot of this little tiny radio station. Um, and so Phil kind of figured that out and said, "Oh." And so then he starts doing that on this on this podcast thing, which was kind of originally was in the woods with Phil and Phil hated the TV show. He hated the production. He hated all that stuff. But he was the first one who got video cameras. As soon as the show was not running, Phil's out there >> video and all this. And I'm so thankful we had that, you know, so we've been able to capture, you were talking about the um the guy giving that to his kids and like we have so much stuff captured to feel >> to do that. But I I think sometimes we we're trying to figure out how we we spend years trying to figure out how rather than just wake up and do it. I had a guy actually it was it was near that it was when when we were together was in Jacksonville. I was by the pool and a guy I've actually told I think I told the story there >> where he comes up and he's like man I've been you know four years I've been trying to figure out what God is he wanting me to lead this big church or or do you know do more and I'm sitting there thinking what have you been doing in four years waiting for this to happen you know >> and then I asked him do you know the I said do you know what the gospel is and and I said do you know where you could find that in the Bible like if you tell someone that but could you could you take this Bible Well, could you open it up and go, "Well, let me just show you, you know, let me show you where this where this is so that you can see it for yourself." And um he was like, "I'd have to get an app." And I'm like, "Um, well, maybe before you're leading a bunch of people, maybe you should need maybe you should find that out." >> And uh and so there's a good spot where that's at. >> That's what we were talking about before. Yeah. Yeah, we were talking about. So, I think don't over complicate it. What will you do tomorrow? What can you start doing today? What can you and you know, um I mean, it's just it's it's as simple as that. So, rather than try to figure out, oh, who's going to be Charlie Kurt? Charlie Kirk just did a lot of the you can now we can go back and see what he did and pretty much a lot of it's just going out with people speaking talking to people every individual then becomes a bigger collective of all this broader stuff and um working in a team I think passing it down is huge. I think passing that on to other people is huge. That is the entire concept of what Jesus did. He gathered a group of people and said, "I'm fixing to leave now. It's on y'all. Then you go get people and then those people get people." We know that it worked because it was 2,000 years ago on the opposite side of the planet from where we're sitting today. We're still talking about it 2,000 years later in a completely different language, completely different nationality, people of how we got here. And we're still talking about that. So I know that whatever they passed down that got passed down year after year. And again, was it some grand plan or scheme? No. These people didn't have any money. They weren't famous. They weren't warriors. They weren't politicians. They were just a bunch of people who passed this down to other people. And again what they do on a onetoone in fact when you go to the book of acts is it's kind of where I spent a lot of time with gospel because I was fascinated about this idea of passing this on and to think about my parents and if that had went the different way my whole life be I wouldn't be sitting here I would not be here. >> I don't know where I'd be. I wouldn't be here. Phil wouldn't be my dad. I mean Phil would be my dad but like I wouldn't have grown up with him. They would have been divorced. it would have, you know, he'd have probably died probably, you know, the the way he was running. And I was just so fascinated. So, if you go in the book of Acts, you're like, what was the grand plan? Well, in Acts chapter 2, we have this big Peter gets up and he there's 3,000 people. So, there's come to the Lord. So, there's a lot there. But after that, if you notice, most of it's just ones and two small group. It's not big giant things. Well, because I think people see the show, they don't see the work. And so you bring up Charlie Kirk. So we've seen the clips, we've seen the interactions, we've seen him dunk on the libs or like whatever the thing you're into with what Charlie Kirk did, but undergirling all of that is a lot of time in study, a lot of time reading, >> a lot of time praying. And you can see his affect change over the years where 5 years ago it was just strictly capital C conservative politics, but it was wrapped in the American flag and wrapped in, you know, Jesus a little bit, but then it became very gospel centered the last year to two years before his assassination. >> And so, you know, it's kind of what we were talking about off air with like how I consume content because it's kind of hard for me to read even to this day, even though I read all the time. So, I just try to get as much content in as possible because when it's time to do the show, >> whether it's recording this, recording over there, speaking live or something like that, >> it's just go time. The lights are on. You got to say stuff and you, you know, you got to try to add value to people and bring them back to the gospel. But most people just forget about like they they see the shots go up and go in the hoop or not, but then they don't see the hours and hours and hours of shots that were taken with no cameras around. Mhm. >> And I think especially for Christians, which this is why with Gospeller, some of the devotionals you've done as a follow-up, like some of those other things is helpful for men because it gives them some sort of a plausibility structure, some sort of like scaffolding to figure out, okay, this is how I can actually do it. Because I get so frustrated, Willie, with guys that are just constantly getting ready to get ready, >> right? So, they know they need to drop some weight. They know they need to start working out or whatever. And so, they spend months researching running shoes, researching the types of modalities they should do. Metcon versus zone 2 cardio versus blah blah blah, whatever whatever. >> They never just put shoes on and go walk >> or go run or get down on the ground and do a push-up. Same thing with like sharing the gospel or whatever. You'll get the kind of stiff arm excuses like, "Well, hey man, I'm not a I'm not a pastor. Hey man, I'm not a theologian. Hey man, what if they ask about dinosaurs? What if they ask me how old the earth is? Like, what? You know, I saw a big boat in Kentucky once and now I'm supposed to believe that everything's 6,000 years old, but I don't know how to defend it. What do I do? >> It's like, yeah, >> that's not what you're tasked with doing, right? There are people that are pros at answering those questions, right? They're professional apologists and they're spectacular. They write great books. They do great debates and all that. >> Your job is to say, "This is what Jesus did for me. This is where I was. This is where I am now." now. And for some people, that transition story is going to be a lot more dramatic, right, than others. >> Yeah. >> But it's like, I was a depraved, black-hearted sinner that had no hope for eternal life, >> right? >> But God sent his son down to this earth to die on a cross. >> He was raised from the grave. He ascended to heaven. And all we're waiting on is for him to come back and get his bride. >> And then you just you can't save him anyway. That's why like the more you read the Bible, you realize, oh shoot, >> I can say the words, but I can't do the act of saving. >> Well, it's not a sharing your faith is not science, >> right? >> It's art. >> Yeah, >> it's art. It's um meaning I can you can tell one person that story and you can tell another person that same story. One person accepts it. One person says, "Not not a chance." And so, um, why was Paul Paul said, "I pray," he was praying that God would give him the words to explain the mystery of the gospel. Well, he knew what the gospel was. I mean, Paul wrote half the New Testament. >> Why was he still praying to try? Because people weren't some weren't coming around to it. Yeah. >> And so I do think it's smart to think, oh okay. >> Well, he was speaking to a bunch of different audiences, too. All Jewish audience. Okay. Then an all Greek like, you know, >> but even in that it's all different, right? That's right. >> It's all So now we're talking about relationship. We're talking about, >> you know, how would we communicate? And um and in order to get the story across and to to strike a a nerve, there's often times I'm like, "hm, let me try this. That didn't work. Uh let me try something else." Because you mentioned Charlie Kurt like dunking on the lips. But was he really dunking on the lips or was he really caring? Why would he care? >> Right. Do you see how tender he would be with people that identified as transgender? Yeah. He was always so tender with those people because he was trying to bring them to truth. Why would he care? Why would he care about what was >> what what what would he gain? What would he profit? What would he No, I see him like when you see him talking to people, there's a genuine generic caring about another person and really wanting that to see if their ideas were good or bad or maybe they weren't thought out. Maybe they were just, you know, and maybe it led to, you know, which is really, I mean, that's the gospel is the same way. It's like, well, let me let me share this with you and maybe this can help you out. Maybe this can give you, you know, uh, some of that peace. And so, that's why I said it's not a science. It's it's an art. It's, you know, um, we take the idea of like the church. It's like I I can tell one person, "Hey, would you like to have community?" And people that would and and a person be like, "Yes, that's really what I need." And I can tell another person the same thing and they're going, "Chris, >> no. Do you realize how much I I grew up in this place and they did this and they said this or I was abused." I mean, you know, there's real stuff. So the idea of a big group of people coming together for one person sounds exciting and another person sounds like hell on earth and they're like no that's the last thing I want. So therefore you have to those that's the adjustment you have to make. You have to you have you're still telling the the gospel doesn't change the story doesn't change and what Jesus did but I think our methods I think how excited we are about it. I think um you find it could be one thing. It could be something that you just you couldn't I mean there's so many friends that I've had um like like Mark do you know Marcus Latrell? Has he been on your show? >> No, he hasn't been on the show but I'm very aware of him of course. >> So Mark Marcus I I'd come I shared with him a lot and uh and can you imagine the perspective of death and life? Yeah. I mean like on another level obviously that I'd never even hung around. the the normal stuff, you know, are you scared of dying? You know, I mean, you know, this person has seen way more than most people on the planet. And um and the something that broke through to him, it was beyond my I still don't understand what exactly. it was more through a science and a like it was on a different realm kind of that I you know general conversations and whatever that was and so science is part of it for some people they need to they've got to get through >> you know some of the issues I see it with you they say with really smart people you I mean Jordan Peterson or who are these like I can see them the thing well he wrote a whole book about it you know you can see this wrestling you know with God and and so that can be with a bunch of different on a bunch of different levels. And so I think sometimes we make church like we go in there and we're kind of giving this generic thing to all these people, but there's so many different levels of where people are and whether or not you're I think it's different whether or not you're rich or whether you're poor, whether you're certainly probably an American versus a you know um someone that you know a Venezuelan or a Brazilian or um whatever that you know because all that's going to factor in on how we're going to tell again we're not changing the passage, but way different ways of of how you do that. Just just read the book of Acts and see how it was done. There was there was all kind of like questions Jesus asked. Uh the rich young ruler, he comes and says, "Ah, go sell everything you got." He didn't say that to other people. >> Yeah. >> You know, other people he, you know, he so was all these different uh ways that were that how it was done. And so I think we as Christians have to we are so lazy and we're just you know we're >> we're not even >> well one we don't know we don't even read this you know >> we've got it down to like I get a verse a day and I read that and go like that's awesome maybe I could you know but we don't and so once you know this I always I think about like a quarterback going back to football you know like we talking about the Steelers so Aaron Rodgers walks out there All right. So, when he's looking, you know, it's like the fourth quarter. What is he look like? Do you think he knows the place? Of course he knows the place. >> Of course. Yeah, he got to He's not going Hang on. Like, >> looking at his wristband trying to >> Look at this. Am I supposed to throw it to >> That dude is looking He's looking at the defense. >> Yep. >> And he goes, "He's here. He's there and okay, that means this spot and probably in the NFL it's probably this half this table. This is the opening. This is where a ball can get over this around this and meet this guy. >> And so think about if we share the gospel like that to where if I sit down with you, >> well, I know what this says. >> Yeah. Like I know what's in I I know what's in here. And so I'm looking at you and I'm talking to you and I'm finding out where you're at. Are you a believer? Are you not sure? Are you anti? You know, and and those are the questions I'll ask. Sometimes we just need to I feel like ask better questions. So So you you may go up to someone and so this is a common question. Hey, do you go to church? >> And that's us trying to be. >> Yeah. Figure something out. >> And so the person, what do you want the answer to be? >> Yes or no? >> Do you want to be yes or do you want to be no? If it's no, >> like no tells me more. >> Well, no, you're like, I get to invite you. >> Yep. >> Hey, would you like to come with me? Would you like to sit with it? >> Or if it's yes, that the problem is when when we hear a yes, we don't there's no followup. We go, "Oh, cool. That's awesome. You must be on a the right relationship with Jesus Christ and on your way into eternal salvation based on you said yes I go to a church. Um the term going to church is not even a term that's we are the church. We don't go in right >> if I go somewhere that makes me feel like when I leave it I'm not there anymore. So it's kind of now you understand why the idea of people like well I go there and then I go back to what back to life back to regular. You never leave you. You're you're constantly around people. Yeah. So >> when when people meet together, I'm not anti- going to church. I'm, you know, and I understand what the concept is. I don't I don't I try not to use the term. I don't say like, "Hey, let's go to church." You know, uh we go wherever that's at, if it happens to be on a Sunday morning, if it's whatever, most of the stuff in the book of Acts is not on a Sunday morning. It's at night. It's in the middle of the night. It's, you know, it's all throughout the week. So you know the the we can ask better questions. The Ethiopian in Acts chapter uh 8 um he the Holy Spirit leads him beside a chariot. The guy's from Ethiopia. He just went to Jerusalem to worship God and now he's heading back to his home. Now he's reading the book of Isaiah. Uh I would have missed it. H >> I would have thought this guy's good. Who goes from Ethiopia all the way to Jerusalem to worship God >> for no reason? >> And I'm reading the book I'm reading the book of Isaiah on the way back home. >> I mean, that's uh today you just went to church on a Sunday morning and you're on you're at the gas station, you got your Bible out and you're reading it on your steering wheel. Well, if I pull up beside you, I'm going to go like, >> "Amen, brother. Let's go. Let's go. This guy, not only you're a ble, you're fired up. >> So, I would have missed it. I'd have I'd have rolled up beside him and been like, I think the Holy Spirit like I think it's the wrong chariot. >> Like I was thinking the guy be cursing, you know, and like a cigarette hanging out of his mouth or, you know, it's the look I'm thinking. And so he asked him a question cuz he trusted that that's where the Holy Spirit wanted him to be. this is the guy he's supposed to be talking to. He looks like he's doing the right things. And he said, "Do you understand what you're reading?" That's a great question. And he says, "How can I unless someone explains it to me?" >> Right? >> So, that right there cuz when you were saying like we we're not saving, but I know we're not, but we need things need to be explained to us. You were talking about hunting earlier. >> Yeah. You were like, "Hey, I don't know some of the things I didn't grow up doing." Well, you need somebody to explain it to you. That's right. You don't need me to say like, "Well, what kind of wuss are you? You didn't you don't know what >> Well, no. Like, you need someone to explain it." And so, he says, "How can I?" So, he jumps in there with him. Starts with that very passage uh in the book of Isaiah, which is also why you need to know what's in the Bible because if someone does ask you, it's great. You know what? been like, "Shoot, Isaiah, who is that? What is that?" You know, >> so and he was talking about the um the lamb being led like a sheep to the slaughter. So he starts with that and explains to him Jesus and all it says is the only thing it says in there. It says he explained the the good news of Jesus. That was it. That's all we that's all we know. And then as they're going along, he looks and says, "Look, there's some water. Why shouldn't I get baptized? So he's asking the question back to him is can I get baptized? Like there's some water. Obviously that was part of the story of the good news obviously. And so they stopped the chariot and he and he baptized him. You know, I would have come up with like at least five good reasons why I probably should have went back home and got baptized. you know, I'd have been like, why don't you go down there, gather all your people, your friends, you know, y'all, and you can explain to them what you're doing. >> But there was this kind of an an immediiacy about that where he just says, "No, we're going to stop, do this, and he sends him down to Ethiopia." Um, so the question he asked, so he didn't I think what happens to us, we look, we ask questions. You go to church? Yep. Oh, great. And we and we're just like, "I tried." >> Yeah. >> I tried my best. No, you did. That That's a terrible question. >> Yeah. >> You know how many people like I would say that somebody go, "Yeah." And they would call the church. It's the one I go to. I'll be like, "That's funny. Never seen you there." Like, >> yeah. >> Yeah. I ain't been a minute. You people say they watch Doug Dynasty. Oh, I love that show. My favorite show. Oh, yeah. Uh, who's your You like Uncle Sai? Who is that? Which one is that? is that the who which and I'm like you haven't watched it all which is fine I don't you know yeah but it's it's funny how we think oh we we love that people do love like that show or they >> or yeah I go to the I go to church it's like when's the la when when's the last time you even I don't know a couple of years but in their mind they're going ah this is where >> so I think sometimes we need to just ask better questions and then to think this okay so we go to a church Um, we're going to bring somebody in there. Now, this is if you're not going to talk to, you're going to bring them and they're going to sit beside you. Now, let's say they have no they don't believe any of this stuff. The first song I'm, you know, my my arms are up, my eyes are closed. I'm just whailing away. I'm singing. I'm probably crying. And this person's going "What? >> Why am I here?" >> And the guy's, you know, and everybody's like doing this thing. and we're talking about the redemptive work of the Holy Spirit and we're we're all brothers and sisters and we're these people looking around going it would you know um it'd be like going did you say you sold insurance? >> Yeah. A couple of different times. Yeah. >> Can you imagine if you wanted me to know more about insurance and you said Willie come to look look Oklahoma City we're having the national insurance convention. Do you do you go to a insurance convention? >> They're all over the place. >> No, I don't. Like, come with me. >> That's right. >> And we get in there and they're like, mortgage rate, we're gonna, you know, and we start going through all this and people ARE JUST LIKE, YEAH, >> I LOVE my disability policy, >> you know, and I'm going, >> you people have lost your mind. Would that make me per se? I'm not saying it's a bad thing. It's just like maybe that's not the best method. It's just they hope they get it, you know, because a lot of times even in a church, like it's according to what's going on that day, but you may not even hear the gospel. >> Oh, in a lot of churches, you're going to get some life lessons with a little bit of scripture on the back end. >> And again, I'm not cuz I'm not whatever happens on Sunday morning is it is what it is, but p it's for believers generally. >> It's for people to and so you may not hear someone walk through the gospel. You may not hear what the responses were the gospel. And how many people sitting in >> may not hear about >> the chair are not saved. They've been there for years. They're a churchgoer, but they're not a Christian. >> That's it. >> Yeah. For totally. And so, yeah, I think I think they're a great place to probably convert a lot of people cuz they're probably just there and they're they're trying something, you know. >> Well, think about it. We live Yeah. I don't know what Oklahoma's technically a place without a region, but we're not technically the South. We're not the Southwest. We're not the Midwest. Yeah. Louisiana. Yeah. >> But we're none of us are sure. >> Yeah. We're southern. >> All the other states are wondering who are you? >> We're southern adjacent. Okay, so that's what we are. Um, but what I call it, I call it country music theology. >> And so, uh, your grandmama and grandpapa went to church. Um, you know, when you vote, you vote Republican. You, uh, you know, and you like listening to country music and God's pro all that stuff and so you get to go to heaven when you die. That's what a lot of people think. >> Mhm. And then there's also a lot of people, Willie, that have been to few church a few times. Maybe they themselves got baptized when they were a kid and they're like, "Look, man, I believe in God. I believe Jesus was a real guy that, you know, died on the cross and all that." But it's kind of where you mentioned Jordan Peterson earlier. They believe that, but they don't believe in. Mhm. >> So they believe that Jesus was a Middle Eastern Jewish construction worker that died on a Roman cross at the behest of the Jewish Sanhedrin roughly 2,000 years ago. They believe all that happened. And even Jordan Peterson is on the record saying he believes that Jesus was resurrected from the dead. >> But he is not, as Joby has taught a lot of people, puoed is the Greek word. He has not put his faith in the fact that that happened for him. Right? That's the difference. >> And I go back to something. >> You know, you know that for sure. What's that? >> You know that for sure about Jordan. >> Well, yeah. So, he he was on the record. He was actually with uh Alex Okconor who's an atheist podcaster guy and he asked him like, "Hey, let's say a cameras pointed at the the mouth of Joseph of Arythea's tomb." >> When was this? >> This was last year, year before. >> And he's like, "What would you expect to see 3 days after Jesus was put in there?" And Jordan said, "What I expect to see Jesus walk out of the tomb." >> Uhhuh. And I mean the whole world's been trying to get Jordan Peterson to say something along those lines in an atheist podcaster just asks him a fantastic question and he says that and he said in another interview with another atheist uh the diary of CEO I think it was or it was another one >> and he's like do you think Jesus is God and he says yes I believe Jesus is God but at no point in any of his public speeches has he talked about that being a real reality for himself. He's talking about it in the ethereal, in the philosophical, maybe even in the historical. >> What are you saying? Are you saying you don't think he's >> a believer? >> So, I've I've gone on record saying as of right now, I don't think you could you could put together a prosecutorial case to convict him of being a Christian. He knows a lot of stuff. >> He knows more scripture than a lot of pastors. >> But maybe, but that's what you need to hear so that you'll feel better so that you can then say that. But you may not he may be totally fine with God and be like >> listen I'm I'm certain >> even though you didn't hear it like this is >> he doesn't owe it to the public to say it. I agree with that. >> Yeah. Or or how he says it or it goes back to we were talking about like what do you have to know cuz you I never thought about that. You're like, "Would you say you have to a podcast has to have like certain conviction or some certain things that they're, you know, like that?" Maybe that's why I don't have a podcast cuz there's a lot of things I'm like, I don't know. >> I don't really know. >> I don't I don't I don't know what like why do I have to be the one who goes But I think we do that with poo. It's almost like with Jordan Peterson that it's kind of like what you were talking about with your hunting. >> Yeah. >> It's like we're going you're not doing it. No, you're this is what you're supposed to be saying. And maybe the guy's just like I'm not saying >> maybe he's just saying it his way. >> He's like this is where I'm at and this is I think the the stuff if you knew probably what was going through his head on what he was really the struggles of trying to you know cuz I think he's such a almost like an extremist where it's like if this happens and this goes then this then he he plays it so far. Most of us don't. >> Yeah. Most of these cats in Oklahoma are gone. I go to church. I'm, you know, I'm not playing this all the way down to like, >> yeah, I'm checking the box. >> What happens if >> so and so and so and so, what would you say here? And I think Jordan's definitely doing that. And so, I think he probably has put his faith in Jesus, but he just doesn't, you know, there's still there's massive things that he doesn't understand. Uh, you're like, well, who else would be in that camp? uh someone like Peter who totally denied even knowing who he was after three years of being with the guy >> and was constantly confused asking follow-up questions like it's like dude I I told you I told this happened >> said I don't know him how long have you been married >> uh 16 years >> can you imagine if you were at a conference and people were asking you were you married and you said, "No, not at all." And like, uh, what's what's your wife's name? >> Kelsey. Yeah. >> Well, I thought Kelsey I thought you're Kelsey. Who? How do you spell K? >> Yeah. >> Can you imagine coming back home? >> That'd be rough. >> Once that was out where you didn't just say you weren't married. You didn't just take the ring off. You didn't even You said, "I don't even know who that person is." That's the level. How long would that How long are you in your marriage? How long would that How long would that take y'all to get over that be a minute over that mistake? Either way, >> if she did it with you or you massive, massive, massive. So then will we determine I think we today will be like, "Wow, Peter, he's not I don't think he's a Christian." How could you go three years and deny, you know, oh, and then when it gets rough and then you're just going to sit there and start cussing people out and lie over and over and over? I think with Peterson, >> so I was saying I would be careful about how we were like he wasn't even a Christian. >> Well, so what I've said with Peterson is I don't think there's someone who's been more important in modernity for Christendom that is probably not a believer than Jordan Peterson because of all of his respect for scripture. He respects the scripture more than a lot of pastors do. But there was another podcast he was on where he got absolutely frozen in his tracks, which almost never happens because the podcaster who was a Christian asked him a very pointed question because everyone asks him the same question. Do you believe in God? Do you believe in Jesus? Are you a Christian? Like that kind of stuff. And he always goes, I don't even know how to answer that. And everyone's like, well, of course you do. It's either yes or no, and it's binary. And you move on. But this podcaster basically was talking about where it talks about, hey, if you deny me before a man, I will deny you before my father, >> right? and Jordan was stopped dead in his tracks because you could tell that the questioner cared about Jordan >> and cared about his salvation. And so that was ting in a positive way how he was even asking it. And so the guy was like, "Help me understand because you won't claim God and claim Jesus before man, but scripture in Jesus specifically says that if you deny me before man, then I will deny you before my father." >> Mhm. And Jordan was just like, "That is a really good question." And he never really got around to answering it. And so, yeah, I think when people start judging, like my joke is, which like a guy like John MacArthur, like if you start judging someone's fruit, right, if they're a Christian or not, no one's less assured of their salvation than after listening to a John MacArthur sermon about the assurance of salvation. Like that's just kind of a thing because nobody's fruit is ever sweet enough according to those strictctures and standards. Mhm. >> And the deeper you get into theology and the more you think your team is right, like it can cause some issues, >> right? >> But I do think it is good to look at someone like him and see the net positive of of what he's saying and what he's doing and the amount of people he's leading back to the church, whereas it would be hard to prove that he believes something that he has not postulated or said himself publicly. But even going back to I guess the through point for this entire conversation is you talk about are are you loving the person that you're even interacting with that you're asking questions whether poorly or in a good way because there was a friend of mine years ago his name is Mike Ritland he's a great guy retired Navy Seal dog trainer you know just wonderful guy we're having a conversation on the podcast and he's you know he's got a pretty pretty foul mouth and he just kind of talks the way he talks and I kept bringing up God and this is after I'd been on his show and this was like a second or third appearance on my show. >> And finally he gets he gets kind of mad at me and he goes, "Kyle, why the f do you care if I believe in God so much? Why do you care?" And I didn't take the the rage bait or anything. I just go, "Cuz I love you, Mike." >> Mhm. >> Because bro, look, if you're right and I'm wrong, >> Mhm. >> we're both worm food. Like I will have wasted a lot of time and energy and money on this whole Jesus thing that's not real. But we're both just highly evolved chimps. figured out language, pants, and fire. And you know, we used we evolved from chimps who evolved from fish who evolve from goo, who evolved from stardust. And none of this matters, >> right? >> But if you're wrong and I'm right, >> it's eternity. And so I am compelled to share with you the truth that I have staked my life on >> because that's not only what I'm told to do, but that is part of the work of the process of the Holy Spirit, like >> bringing people closer to the father. And he could tell like he didn't, you know, fall down on his knees and say, "Oh, I want to be baptized and all that." It wasn't dramatic, but he knew I loved him enough to share that. I mean, look at Pin and Pinellet that of Pin and Teller, >> ardent atheist. He said publicly, he's like, "If you actually believe in Jesus and believe in all that and you don't share it with me, you hate me." That's a special kind of hate. >> Exactly. Which that's Yeah, that would make total sense. And um back to Jordan Peterson. The other thing is I realized too you're because you're talking about a lot of stuff he says on podcast like I've done a lot of podcast too. I don't know. >> Like if you looked it off, you're like like people do that with the TV show. They're like remember when you I'm like actually no. I don't remember like you know we >> we do a lot of talking and so I don't know exactly what um but I think to be vulnerable for him I think he is vulnerable um and and he's trying I think he does he's done a lot of stuff for that and so I I just I'm not as you know like people are I'm just I've heard people are like ah he's not a Christian but but then I'm going we are pouring out the grace to everybody else you We're like, "Oh, they're a Christian. They're," you know, I'm like, "You don't even know." >> Like, if you like I've hung out with people going, >> "Well, that's a weird way of showing it, you know. I mean, you got to come back to the fruits of the spirit." You know, I think Galatians 5 is a great kind of a black and white, like the acts of the sinful nature are this, the fruits of the spirit are this, you know, uh those who live like this have crucified this, they don't they're not like that. So oftentimes I'll read that to people and I'll say which one describes your life more you know is it peace ch l um love joy patience kindness or is it you know immorality and fits of rage you know and if you're not sure let's ask >> people around you >> that live with you >> cuz they'd probably be more sure you And um and if that's you know once you recognize that if that's the case and if they're not they're not and I I think we got to be willing just like your friend. You're like hey man I love you and I'm I'm I'm going to keep bringing this up over and over and over. Think about your children like you're going to keep doing that for them for their whole life. You know whatever it is you're not going to be like okay I tried. Um, and so you're going to keep doing that because you do care about them. >> And but I think sometimes we we blow we're like if if you don't accept it and then we're like, "All right." >> Yeah. >> Moving on. But can you still be friendly? I mean, there's still people I've got >> I'm super good friends with atheist and people who are not uh and I try other I try other tricks, you know. I think, okay, so I'll call them and I'll say, "Hey, I'm I'm trying to talk to an atheist and I know you're one, so help me out here." And I use them. >> Yeah. >> Like, I'm trying to figure out this so that I can try to get the gospel >> as the And what you're you're getting it to again, but you're like going, >> "Hey, I'm not preaching to you. I'm >> Yeah, >> I get where you're at. You're my test, >> but help me to maybe bring this guy." And so, uh, I use I use mixed direction a lot with people. Like, if I'm talking to you, there may be a guy sitting right here that I'm like, I'm going after him, but he may not be able to handle this. I'm going to tell you or I'm going to tell you a story about maybe my father. >> So, it's like I'm not I'm not talking about your story, but let me tell you what. Yeah. >> Did that recently on a golf course. So I was sitting with a guy and I started telling the story cuz we made a movie about it. So it was I propose, you know, I was just telling him like, "Hey," and then he did this and his life was like, and I knew I was speaking right to this guy's life, but I wasn't going like, "What are you doing? What are you up to?" >> Yeah. >> Never had to ask, never had to tell him. He's sitting there listening going crap. >> Now, if he says, "Hey, man, that's me." You know, then we can talk further. If he hears it and goes like, "Fine, I don't," you know. So, I think we just, you know, I think of all kind of use all kind of ways to because I would do that in life. I do that in business. I do that in, you know, I don't I don't just do one thing like, well, we couldn't sell the duck calls. We called Walmart and said, "Do you want to buy them?" They said, "Nope." And you know, I'm like, "Okay, hang on." Yeah. Okay. What if I give you this? You know, what if I give you And so, we constantly do that in business or with all kinds of things. So, I'm going to do that with trying to get that across. One, it starts with caring because I got to care about people. And um it's it's John chapter 4. It's the woman at the well where Jesus goes up. He talks to this woman. Well, he she knew something just by him being friendly to her, right? >> You know, she's out there by herself. She got a checkered past. Um and then he simply said, "What was the question there? Can I get a drink of water?" Like I always tell people if you can start there if you could just ask me. Hey when I came here I said can I get a drink of water >> in undon >> what receptacle would >> and so he starts with this woman he already showed her that he cared about her. Why would you know y >> and he asked her for something he starts talking about living water. She has no idea what he's talking you know and that's another thing. Don't be surprised when people it's like the insurance convention. Don't be surprised when they don't have a clue what you're talking about, >> right? >> You know, I I think people are Isn't it funny how people are so shy? They're like, "Can you believe that these people?" Of course, I believe it. They're led by the evil one, >> right? >> You know, can you believe that they did this? And it's like I would be shocked if it were people who claim to be disciples of Jesus Christ act like that. Yeah. >> Yeah. Romans says we're inventors of evil. So why why are you >> That would shock me. It doesn't shock me that people are like they don't profess anything beyond their own selfishness and survivability, whatever it is on this planet. It doesn't nothing shocks me what people do they steal. Do they go back to the fruits of the spirit? Do they do those things? Yeah, that's what they do. Um that's what I would do. Um as well if I you know I would cheat and lie and do all you know um and I would do that as a pattern. And I'm not that I'm, you know, not a perfect person, but I would, that would be the pattern of my life to try to get as much as I could for myself. I wouldn't care. Why would I Why would I be talking to you right now? Be like, are you paying me? Are you going to like hook me up? Are you going to do something? >> I mean, my wife's going to come back with the gold bars in just a second. But yeah, >> and this goes to other people who are listening. And then it's passed on. And so, and hopefully this, you know, um, because I realize again, I just buried my father. I realize what's important. I can do the numbers. Yeah. 53, he was 79, 27. We better get going. And then I I want, you know, I like thinking I think for men, we need task. We need stuff, you know, and I like to I like the idea of where God's like, I need, man, I need you on my team. I need you to do some stuff. >> Yeah. >> And um and here's some things that I' I've got for you. I think men respond to that. I think we don't talk. We're so scared to say that. Oh, you can't. You're trying to earn something. No, I'm not. I'm just saying I want to be on a team. I work for God. I'm in the kingdom of God. I am on this earth. Unlike my father, I'm still on this earth. >> Yeah. >> Unlike everybody who's ever lived, they're gone. They're not there. Now, they're in heaven. They're maybe they can see what's going on. Maybe they I don't know. Again, I don't know what's going on, but I know this. I'm still here. So, I'm like, what can I do, Father? What can I do to help along the kingdom of God while I'm still here? >> Well, let me ask I want to key in on that just a little bit because it's like, okay, give me something actionable cuz if we were talking in like a corporate mindset or context, everyone's like, yeah, of course. Like you would not expect for your boss to give you no tasks to do. >> It's like look, we're paying you a certain amount of money. You have to give at least that amount of value for us to continue this arrangement. >> But part of the thing that has been such an issue for men, and I I talk to men all the time about this, cuz 90% of our audience is, you know, men, and 95% of our audience is men, and they're like they always go to church, and they're like they they don't always have the words to kind of elucidate it. But what they what they would mean is man it just doesn't seem like they have us in mind like the the sermon go ahead >> say that again >> it doesn't seem like they have me in mind in mind >> this would be the man in the church that is somehow disconnected in the church >> but who is the they who is they don't have us in mind >> the church the church doesn't have us in mind >> who is the well wait a minute are you talking about certain >> think church staff >> leadership pastor's leaders ship. That's what I want you to say. >> Not the ecclesia, right? Not not the gathering, >> not the church you're talking about. >> Not the capital C church, >> whoever the coordinators of the group would be. And and we can call them pastors, we call whatever they are. >> So you've Okay. >> Yeah. And so >> I just want to make that clear who we were talking about. >> And so they walk in and they're like, well, again, they they can't always explain it this way, but it's like, well, just, you know, >> she said they walk in >> the Yeah. >> They walk in the place. Yeah. I get I see where you're going. >> See where I'm going? >> Well, no. Here, peel back that a little bit more. So, here you knew where I was going with kind of like what I'm saying. You're saying they walk in, they feel like uh they walk in where? They walk into a building >> and they're evaluating the building. >> They meaning the whoever the people who are in charge of this building and the people are at this particular address on the street, >> right? >> And they feel like that would you say they don't have them in mind or what? You know, right? Um, yeah, that's a problem. >> Well, you and I, we talked about this for a while. >> What if it's a business? What if I walked in Chick-fil-A and I don't feel like they understand the stuff that I like putting in my mouth and chewing up and swallowing and paying $15 for? Actually, Chick-fil-A understands it perfectly. >> Yeah. >> Chick-fil-A knows. They know what it is that in that sandwich and they know what they do and they put it out there. But if I go to another place and I'm like and they're rude and the, you know, and the chicken's not doesn't look as good and it doesn't taste as good, I never go back. I don't keep walking in >> Yep. >> to the same restaurant because that's what I'm supposed to do. if you're not blowing me away, you know, with the food, the price, the staff, the friendliness, you know, um, then I'm just not going to I'm not going to choose to be there. You and I, we talked about this very briefly in Jacksonville. I I guess how long have you been chewing on this concept of like the church gathering? And I want to make sure we're clear cuz all the heresy hunters out there are trying to clip clip something and like put it online and be like Willie doesn't think you should go to church anymore or anything like that. But like I think you should be a part of a church every day of your life. Like here's what's funny to me. You live in Edmond. >> Smack dab in the middle of Oklahoma. >> We're in the middle of Oklahoma. Okay. So, how far uh you took me? What way did we go? >> We went audous route. >> We went audous from here. >> Okay. So, actually uh by the way, I need to stop I need to stop by CVS. >> Yeah. Yeah, we got you. I think we can make that happen. >> My My deodorant My deodorant exploded when I opened it today. It fell all over the >> What kind of deodorant do you have? >> It was uh I can't tell you. It's a secret. >> Okay. But there's a clue. >> But they got it at CVS, guys. But there's a clue in that. Um, so it falls apart. I literally parts of the cake that I'm doing this and I was like, "H, okay. So, how far?" So, if we drove to um Yeah, this was a >> If we drove uh 10 miles, >> let's take a circle. >> How many church buildings? Oh, >> there's one actually. Right. I saw one. We just passed one, right? >> That's right. >> How many church buildings would there be? I mean dozens if not more, >> right? How much did those dozens how often are they coordinated and do stuff together weekly, monthly, yearly, >> the different churches? >> All of them. Yeah. >> Basically never. >> Never. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, so meaning the programs here >> Mhm. >> whoever the they is that's running this one and they running this one and then they running this one, this group's running this one, >> and they all think they're doing it the right way, >> right? But none of them do anything together. They don't do stuff together. They don't say, "Hey, you know, >> no joint programming." >> But yet, so are they churches or is that the church? You know, as we read the New Testament, it's like the church in Edmund, the church in >> wherever >> West Monroe. M so what's the you know what's the status of the church in generally other towns you know Ephesus Rome Corinth you know um so are they not all one are they one church supposed to be they're supposed to be but they're not >> right >> they don't even know each other in fact they almost they would be kind of competitive like like they wouldn't say hey if you're not into our music. Uh there's a church. >> Yeah. Go to that >> one church right here. They've got the most incredible. If you're into like worship music, like they they're awesome there. So go there. >> That's No. Yeah. >> Put your money in the bucket there. You know, >> if you don't like this or you know, our pastor's been here for 30 years and he's a little dry. We've all heard the stories. If you've been here 30 years, you've heard them all 30 times probably. But there's another man. There's a couple down here run. you should. Yeah, >> you may should be there. They're not doing that. So, that is I'm just trying to figure out cuz you said they were like, "Well, he doesn't think you got I'm just like which one exactly is supposed to be the one that I'm you know." >> Well, you know what you sound like? Sound like a Catholic. No. And this is why because when I interact with with Catholics, we don't have a ton of those here in Oklahoma or at least they avoid me. But I will ask them a question about Catholicism cuz I'm honest honestly interested. And I usually take a shot at the pope uh for fun, but then they'll be like, "Oh yeah, if I were to become Protestant, which church would I go to?" That's always their go-to thing because of what you're explaining, the fractured nature of all these churches that claim Protestantism, right? >> Mhm. >> But then they do things a billion different ways and a lot's been made of the different Protestant denominations. But then they're like, "Well, that's why you should be Catholic because you believe there's one holy Catholic church." But then the Eastern Orthodox say the same thing. They're like, >> "I just think there's one I think there's the church. It's all of us. It's all of us together. We're all the church. All every >> So, let me ask you this because >> I'm not saying every building cuz I'm not I'm not in union with pieces of property, >> right? you know, something happens at one at any but I'm a a group there's a group of people. So meaning if you went into a building >> um there may be we were talking about that there may be 30% of the people that are actually disciples of Jesus. 70% of them no maybe it's the opposite. Maybe it's 70% of them yes 30% of them no some you may go in it may be way more it may be way less. there maybe just people sitting in there. They have no idea, you know, why they're even there. But I think all of that is the group. And so I I I I'm not anti-church at all. But man, I'm golly, I just some of the things we do, I just I just question and go, is that the best way? Is that the is that the best way to do this? Well, at the end of last year, I started like because at different times, like, you know, that's how Joby and I really got connected and really started becoming good buddies is because he's like, "Man, what's your problem with big churches?" Because every time you talk about big churches with big parking lots, you just assume they don't disciple people. And that's just not the case. >> Yeah. >> And so, you know, that started our we had a very volatile start to our friendship and relationship is what I'm saying. >> But at the end of last year, >> that's a good point, >> right? It was a good point and I accepted it immediately because I was like, "Oh man, that's not what I mean to say, but that sure is what it sounds like, isn't it?" >> Right. >> But I was like, "Man, maybe there's different ways of doing church because of the different personalities and different people's standpoints. Not as far as like standpoint epistemology, but where they came from, you know, what their family was like, you know, whether they've experienced any hurt or pain at at some point in their life, their their tastes in music or speaking styles or whatever." And then I started asking people, I'm like, "So the the seeker sensitive church that's like, "Hey, come as you are. We'll play secular music in the lobby and, you know, we'll play the, you know, we'll do the smoke machine and we'll do the TED talk and, you know, we won't challenge you that much." Can God save people at church like that? Yeah, God can save people at not a church like that. So, we can assume that he can save them anywhere. But then it becomes a question of, well, do you stay at a congregation like that that serves milk for longer than a couple years? Do you transition to more of a Bible church or more of a disciplehip driven church and all that? I think that's a question as I'm kind of considering even in my own head as I'm trying to process like >> how is God using the church specifically and then you can define the church as the capital C church which is the overall concept that you're talking about or the lowercase C church of >> notate right >> that's the problem the problem is when you when you start when you think about the church and you're like that's where it happens for an hour and 15 minutes that's No, that's in fact I would say if if you believe it, you missed it. >> You missed it, >> right? >> You think it's an hour and 15 minutes, you missed it, >> right? So, what do we do? >> Break people out of that. >> You take the hour 15, do whatever the heck you want to do on that Sunday morning. >> Can I get six days and the other half of that day? >> We will change the world, man. We will go revival if I had that. >> Mhm. And that's why I feel like that's if you think like I put my time because why? Because I go there and I lead there. And for a lot of people that's it. That's all there. So is Joby and them doing disciplehips? Of course they are. I've been there >> very much. >> One I I tend to only talk about places that I've been or people that I know. Like like how many people are talking about people they don't know who they are. You know >> how many people are talking about you right now? >> They don't know me. You don't know me. you've you you know so if you've like I've been to that Job's place I didn't know actually a lot about that place and I mean I knew Tibo went there and I and I go there and I'm just but you know what blew me away not not when we're there I mean obviously that was a it was awesome but it should be like it was a great like it can be awesome moments I was impacted by every all the other people everywhere I went throughout that town that was that knew that that church had impacted the church in that and it's it's just one there's other places there too >> but how much they had been impacted by that group of people >> under that group of >> the gospel >> I mean at the hotel they're like oh >> Joey oh that church you know whatever and he's a strong leader but you don't >> stuff like that doesn't happen without a ton of people who are doing a ton of >> be the first to admit it that's right >> yeah he's just uh you know, but I do think you've got so that so I can speak to that cuz I've been there and I've seen it and um >> now the problem is what do you you know um is the Sunday morning thing you brought up the milk and well you got to figure out what it is that you're trying to do on a Sunday morning. There's not a that this is this doesn't give us the whole playbook exactly on what exact you know. >> So what exactly are we looking for? What do you want it to be? Well, you've got a big group of people. So, you've got a totally different probably education level. And if well, especially once the bigger you get, you know, you've got people who um are probably college level educated. You probably have people who are dropped out of high school. You got workers. You've got laborers who, you know, you've got people who grew up in a church who know all the little terminology. You have some that have no idea what any of this terminology mean according to where you're at. Even in America, like half them may not even speak English. You know what I'm saying? So like, so you've got all this big. So you're like, what to do? We've got it about down to an hour and 15 minutes, which is tragic. So, it's so fast. We've got to move so quickly. It's like you're listening to your podcast on six feet cuz you're trying to Well, that's what they're trying to do with the people cuz they're going, >> "Well, this is a place where, you know, we want to have community. We want to hang out. >> We can't. We need you to leave. got to get you through the assembly line. because we need the parking spot because you know and and what and so what I found was a lot with churches was there will be meetings from Monday through Saturday all these meetings none of the meetings are about the gospel none of the meetings are about sharing the faith none it's parking logistics turn times comes, you know, coordination of when this transitions into this. And I pro I'm telling you, man, I've seen that where it's like I call them Friday afternoon ministries, meaning Friday afternoon, somebody they're sitting around table, we got what's going to happen on Sunday morning. Any questions? Lighting we're good. Sound we good. How's the band? Here's the deal. Here's the message. Here's the transition. Boom. See you guys Monday. So they do the thing on Sunday. They come back and they go, "Well, was there any hitches whatso? Well, we went 3 seconds." So, you know, and this is over and over. And perfection is when everything went off, the parking went off. Did anybody get saved? >> Anybody get saved? >> Did anybody learn something? Did anybody confess a sin? Did anybody meet someone new? We were talking about sharing the gospel. The worst place to share the gospel at is at a church building. It's the one place where we don't talk. We're we're listening to one guy generally talk. You're just listening to one guy. You know how many people think that that makes them probably more holy? So like I'm a hunter. It'd be like somebody going, "Hey, do you dare hunt?" And I go, "Uh, um, I'm asking them, "Do you dear hunt?" "Yeah, I watch you. I watch you on YouTube. I watch you on the outdoor channel." Well, that doesn't mean you hunt. >> Yeah. >> Well, I mean, I watch it all the time. >> Golf Golf is a better Yeah. You a golfer? Watch every tournament. Oh, I love it. >> Do you watch? No. No. Do you go out and like >> take a driver and hit a ball and then hit the fairway and then hit, you know, then putt? No. I just watch other people. Well, how many people are going in there? You're sitting there watching somebody else and yet you're thinking you're I'm that. Well, you ain't talking. >> Yeah. >> You're You're not even It's the worst place to talk to other people at cuz usually we're crowd in there and told to leave as soon as it's over and get them a cup of coffee, get them a deal and get the next group in there. That's for bigger churches. >> Sure. So, smaller churches, >> maybe they can't hang out and [ __ ] but it's all about what that what is that hour and a half? What is it for? So, cuz I'm not saying it needs to be all cuz what happens is then people go like, "We need some meat." Well, if you're only wanting to get your meat at this particular thing, >> at this particular time, >> you again, you've missed it. The meat that I get from the Bible ain't from any hour and a half thing on a Sunday morning. >> Yeah. >> I'm going to get it all throughout the week because here's now with technology, I can listen. I don't have to. I'm not doomed. Like 20 years ago, we're like, "Oh no." Like guy like me in West Monroe, you're like, "I'm in West" or think some other tiny towns, you know? Um like I'm in this tiny town. There's three church buildings. They're all terrible. These guys are terrible communicators. What do you do? Move? But now >> I've been asked that question before. Now you can go get I can listen to the I can listen to Matt Chandler. I can listen to Joe. >> You can listen to AI pretend to be Charles Spurgeon is what you can do. >> I'm not Does that take the place of a church? No, it doesn't. But what I'm saying is at least I'm not going I got to go listen to brother Earl, you know, that's been doing this for 50 years and he's terrible. You know, he's just not and he doesn't he doesn't know he can't do anything else and nobody wants to fire him and he we don't want him to starve to death. So, we just let him get up and communicate with the whole message of the church. Um, there's a building back home that they did a parking lot and I was so excited. I was driving by it's I drive by every day and drive by and I I could just tell how many meetings there were like how many business meetings there were over this parking lot, you know? I was like got the price, got the estimate, you know, I could I just know what's going on this tiny little church. It reminds me of where I grew up. And um and they laid the parking lot and then trucks are there as I'm driving by. I'm just going to work and I'm looking going, "Oh, they're doing it. They're doing this parking lot." And so the whole it's the property is probably a couple acres, but the parking lot is just in front. Now the other behind the church building beside it's all just level grass. People could park there. Yeah. >> Um >> and I I they finally finished it. They had it striped. You could tell they were probably like, "We did this, you Uh, so I went and counted the the spots. >> 16. >> So 16 spots. >> Okay. >> What kind of vision does it have to sit in a building that one is that big that would have a spot for 16 people? You actually pull the parking lot. So rather than go like, "Hey, what about the back, the side, all of it needs to be parking?" Mhm. >> You got 16 spots. And that's where that's the mentality. That's the growth. Like if they doubled, they would run out of Parkinson. If one person went out and shed their faith with somebody lost or whatever, cuz they're not trying to grow. They're not trying. They're just comfortable sitting in a spot for an hour and a half and doing the thing. That's that's what And that that I'm not saying it's bad. I'm not saying it's the end of the world. I'm not saying it's awful. I'm saying whatever whatever you want to do in that whatever it is in that time if you don't want to get me some people then go the other way and they're like I'm gonna we're gonna make this so deep and heavy and then I'm looking around at my kids going they're just like cuz they're not ready. So it it that's a tough group to you know I think you worship God I think but study and learning all that I think most that probably that probably needs to take place during that week you know and community is that's yeah you're going to need the community on what that is but I'm I'm weird with comm I mean because I go I'm >> I'm out with a lot of groups and so uh I'm rarely even home on weekends anyway and So, um, but yeah, people are going to need that. So, I don't know. So, it's just that's the questions to ask, you know, and just see where that is and ask those ask those pastors. Ask those preachers. >> Go ask them. Go talk to them. Sit down and have a meeting. >> Yeah. I mean, that's >> that's what I do. I just go I go talk to them and why why do y'all do this? What do or why do we do this? And you know, I thought it was so strange cuz I moved uh cuz you've been you've been to where I live like and I moved compound I moved from this building >> where dad and them were and I moved up the road to a different building >> on a Sunday morning. You would it it's the weirdest. I've done a lot of stuff in my life. Yeah, >> that one I mean it was people were losing their minds >> like in the family or people all over the town. >> Yeah. >> Whole town. My mom said everybody in this town was talking about that from sitting here. >> And how long ago was that? >> Oh, like shoot. >> Wasn't that long ago? >> 10 years. >> Oh, was it? >> Eight years ago. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. And uh yeah, I was at the coffee shop. The lady that was serving me at the coffee shop, there's a blind of people. And let's face it, everybody knows how I am in that town. She was one that went to the She's at this building. >> The new one or the old one? >> The old one. >> Old one. Yeah. Yeah. >> She goes, "Where have you been? >> How do you even answer that?" >> Where have you been? I said, "What do you mean? I'm at the I'm in line to get coffee." >> That's right. >> I said, "What do you mean? Where have I been? I haven't seen you at church. Well, do and I I actually in the line waiting. I said, "Do you mean where am I sitting geographically on a location at 10:00 on a Sunday morning? Is that what you mean?" Yeah. Do you go to our church or do you not? It was like, "Are you with us, >> right? >> Are you against us?" And I said, "Aren't we all kind of the do you not think a mile and a half up the road? Is that not the church?" Well, she said, "You you know what I mean?" I said, "Actually, I don't know what you mean." She goes, "You need to go where you grew up." I said, "Let me just ask you, do you go to the church you grew up in?" "No, I'm not from here." I said, "Then you don't either." >> Yeah, we're in the same spot. you don't you didn't you don't go to the church that you but that was the she says well that's your family and I think she meant more not my like >> right >> that your church home >> where church home is our family >> and I'm like well you know that's weird I don't know how y'all's family treats each other but if that is my family you're acting really strange as my family member like when John Luke went to Liberty Right. >> I didn't stop talking to him. I didn't stop asking him. I'm like, "Well, you're not here, >> right?" Cuz he didn't go to where you >> my son. Like, you know, >> I'm like, the question I asked him was, "How is it going? How was school? How was Liberty? How was >> So, what was interesting, I I wish he would have just when I came up the line said, "Ah, Willie, I haven't seen you in a long time. Miss you. How what all what kind of ministry are you doing? What are you into?" Oh, actually, uh, I'm sitting here on the Oh, that's cool. What other things do you have? You know, you talking to people? You, you know, that's what really, that's what a family should really do, I feel like. >> Yeah. >> Right. Like, cuz it wasn't how is your life? Are you struggling? Are you, >> you know, >> it was where exactly are you sitting? And I'm not comfortable with where you're sitting on a Sunday morning because that's family. And I'm like, "Y'all are weird family acting like that." >> Yeah. >> Um, so for a lot of the communication, it just I just didn't get asked anything. Like it was just like us. But well, I guess he's not with us. Like we're not on the same team. I'm like I thought we were all on the same I thought we were like we have the Bible. We're It's like but this is what this is our program. This is what we're doing. So I don't I just don't like that. I don't like the way we're doing that. >> So did it kind of make you feel a little jaded about like just the reaction? Is that kind of where this is? >> Well, I don't know. I mean, I don't feel jaded. I just I just thought it was interesting. I was like, "Wow, what a weird what a weird thing to happen." >> Well, take it back >> cuz I'm not even at the other one now, >> right? >> I'm not there either. >> But let's take it back. I mean, we brought up football about 15 times. Like, how many Let's talk Lane Kein, right? The new head coach of the LSU Tigers. Go Tigers. >> Go Tigers. So, in 24 hours, we saw people in Mississippi talking about how much they loved Lane and his family and how, you know, legacy and, oh, we just love you and where you've taken the Rebels and what a season and all that. >> We're going to go the national championship. >> Some of those same people were at the air strip or airport >> cussing him, flipping them off, saying he's the worst. And you know, we did this in Oklahoma City. I say we colloquially because when Kevin Durant decided to leave here and go to the Golden State Warriors, you know, 24 hours ago, people had their KD shoes wearing their number 35 Thunder jersey and oh man, he's the best and he may be the greatest, you know, thing we've seen since Wilt and all the things. >> And then he decides, yeah, I want to go play in the Bay Area and it's Judas and it's like it's this whole thing. It's because we want the guy on the team, >> right? like in and I I say that in a team sports ball context, but also in a in a context of like we want you on the team. We want you at our church. We want you coming to our Sunday school class. We want you meeting in our home group. And then if you decide to go somewhere else, we feel personally offended that you don't like the team as much as we do. What is it about this team that you don't like? What's better about that other team? And it's this adversarial >> setup, right? And so to that aspect, it's got to be like, you're right. We we ask where are you geographically located at a particular time on Sunday morning, but we're not asking about the fruit that's coming the rest of the week. >> But you don't like that either, huh? >> Doesn't feel very healthy, does it? >> Yeah, that's what I'm say. You know, because really, and I actually I don't think anybody's going to ask an honest question going, what is it that we're doing? Let me tell you what a lot of people don't want to hear is that they don't want to hear what we're doing that that maybe is not positive. And that's tragic. And that's what's different in business. business, we go, "No, we're >> we're doing something wrong here. Our sales are down. Our what, you know, >> um church groups, no, they don't ask us questions." >> No. >> And so they don't, you know, um it was funny. We were talking about Easter and uh Easter Sunday and so I'm in the meeting and the guy says uh I said, "How many how many bishers did we have last year this place?" And I love and passion light up you uh we had 600 visitors 600 v we had to do this sir watch pass when they they just it's like yeah we have to do this we have to do like uh there's extra things we bring in it's just like 600 I said 600 people wow that's I know it right 600 people I said how many people came back the next week how many how many how How many visitors did we have the next week? Guy goes, "Well, the same as we had the week before Easter." I said, "No, none. >> No growth." >> I said, "Well, you know, in the business world, you know what we do? We change something ain't working." >> Yeah. >> If you're not getting anybody, in fact, I was looking for I was looking for a person. And I was going to do a special thing where it was like I wanted the person who said, "Hey, I'm one of those guys who come on Easter Christmas." >> But I went there and got converted. That's where my life changed was on Easter Sunday. There's like a thousand people at this place. I said, "Can we find a person?" Like, I just wanted I need to talk to them. Nobody. Couldn't find anybody. >> It's an indictment. >> They couldn't find anybody. In fact, it's the worst day of it should be the best day to convert people on Easter. That should be the number one day of like that's where I got baptiz that's where I got, you know, cuz I showed up at this place. It's probably I would say the worst the worst day. One, everybody has plans immediately when that thing's over. They're all dressed up, so everybody's working on the outfits and the, you know, all the kids. And I get it. Like, I lived it. Um, and they're just not they're not trying to say, "Let's use the biggest opportunity." It's just to actual convert. I want to convert people this morning. You're here. I got one chance at you. Let's go. And it tends to be more holidayish, you know, it's great. Jesus came back from the dead. Hey, man, let's all Hey, let's get out here. I know you got eggs to hunt and food to eat, you know, and then we move on to the next thing or whatever. >> So, I don't know the answer to that. I I would, man, I would love it to be, but you don't have to have, you know, I would just, that's what I'm saying when we're at churches. Why don't they think like business, you know, in some way like go well that didn't work, you Well, think about it like if a business sells everything on Black Friday, but then they don't because the hardest thing to do is to get a new customer, >> right? Second hardest thing to do is to retain that customer. But if you lose them, the odds of you ever getting them back are essentially zero, >> right? >> And we we certainly don't think in those terms, you know, when you're going into ministry. It's almost like what we were talking about on the way here. It's like if you go to a college that teaches business or entrepreneurship and the people teaching you are people that have studied the theory of those things but have never practiced it. >> It's just going to tinge the the instruction in a certain way. So, um, what what I would see, well, I think Lee Stroel said it like new Christians or evangelism, whatever you want to call it, um, bringing people to the Lord is actually new customers, >> right? >> Like that's the department. >> Mhm. >> And so, I mean, what of a business? What essentially how big is new customers? It's pretty much the whole business, right? >> Yeah. >> Why is McDonald's still running commercials, >> right? They've never allowed the market to saturate. >> I'm just saying we all know where they're at. We know what the food actually we say that, but I actually went to McDonald's recently. I was like, crap, they got some good stuff. Like, I didn't know, you know, they've got interesting different I mean, I didn't know like y >> I haven't been there in like a decade or so. Um I was like, "Wow, they've got all kind of different kinds of food that I didn't know." And so they've, you know, because they'll look up and they'll be gone. >> Yeah. >> They'll all, you know, I mean, think of the chicken business, you know, I mean, dag them Chick-fil-A got, you know, sitting that thing for 15 minutes waiting on that food, you know, there, you know. I mean, there's like it's a situation in my hometown like >> I've been to that Chick-fil-A. It is. You know, we have two. We have two back. We have the only backtoback Chick-fil-Ass. I asked the Kathy >> and they confirmed it. So, there was a drive-thru one, >> then they bought a property and they No, I'm I'm sorry. I'm sorry. There's one that's only drive-thru and then they built the big, you know, go. Yeah. The kids, all of them got drivethrus, but it's got the double. So, the back of their parking lots are connected. Like, they're connected. Well, the guy left it open. And he was like cuz while they were building it they just left it open. It keep hitting the same numbers as it did before with the so we have literally >> Chick-fil-A's touching to and he said it's only one like that in the country where y'all have two different they don't even have the same like they some of the items weren't on the It's weird. They're like you have to go the other one. But what'll happen is they're taking that business. So, I don't want to lose people to the world. I mean, I think there's a move. I think there's definitely a movement happening. Um, there's a movement happening towards faith, towards things that are real. There's a backlash against not really a lot of established things, you know. Oh, yeah. You said government and big entities. And we're like, wait a minute. You know, >> 2020 broke a lot of people's faith in a lot of different things. >> And I think the church is part of that. And I say the church, I'm saying the church leadership and all this >> old ways of doing stuff or just well that's what you're supposed to do. And and I think the younger people are like, well, tell us why. Like tell us why exactly, you know, what are we talking about? What are we doing? And um and they've got to step that up. And um so I'm excited. I'm excited about what we're doing. Uh we have a little ministry we do that's I won't call it a church. That's a It's a definitely eklesia. Um, but I essentially just wrote down 20 things that I saw churches get themselves in a bind over. >> Time, parking, all this stuff that and I just said, "Let's see if we can build one that's not You know what's funny? It's really hard not to do that. Not to fall into the same traps, >> right?" Because you've seen it so much. >> Because I would say, "Hey, we got a group." And they'd be like, "Who's the preacher?" A bunch of us. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. But who's the one? saying, "We want to know." >> Who's the senior pastor? >> That that's what they want to know. >> Yeah. I don't know. Do you want to speak? Do you want to get up and talk? They're like, "Oh, can I?" Yeah. But like, what are the rule? You know, I mean, read those read those church gatherings back in the New Test. They were chaotic. You know what I'm saying? We would be so uncomfortable with some of that. People were just jumping up and, "Hey, I got something to say." >> Well, think about even as we talked about how you consume scripture. So, we're, as I told you, we're going through Romans right now on the forging table. And if you're doing a Romans devotional, you know, you're doing RC Sprouls Romans devotional. It may be a week's worth of content on Romans 1 and then a week's worth on Romans 2 because, you know, it's a year in Romans or whatever, >> right? >> How was Romans the letter consumed in the first century? The entire letter was being read by a local member of the eklesia who could read out loud. >> I know because most people couldn't read, >> right? And also, were they reading one or two passages? Cuz the thing about Romans is it's got different themes and it builds here and like, oh, it feels like he's really going after the Jews. Crap, now he's really going after the Gentiles. So, I felt pretty good him when he was getting after the Jews, but now he's getting after me. I don't like that very much. But if you're studying it in little bitty chunks, you miss some of the flow and the narrative of the entire letter. But it wasn't, you know, 16 days where it's like, all right, we're going to read chapter 1 again. We add a chapter and a verse later. It was read in its entirety. John Tyson, who we've talked about and who we've hung around with at the same time, talks about how many of us are just reading the Gospels. He's like, we don't we don't read the gospel in a sitting. We read a chunk of the gospel. We read a story from a particular gospel. We're not reading a gospel. So, we miss the narrative arc of what God pre-ordained for us to learn in modernity with the transferral of this particular set of >> gathered documents into one volume, >> right? And we just we lose a lot of that when we when we look at the model of what we're doing now, which is, you know, popularly either TED talk with Bible verses sprinkled over the top so you can keep your tax exempt status or hey, we have to go so slowly through this because, you know, like the what did Piper did like Romans? It took him seven years to get through Romans, right? Yeah. Yeah. And so that's really hard to kind of know where you're at in the narrative of what Paul's even trying to get us to understand which is we are so depraved and there's nothing that we can do about it. We can't work our way into salvation and it's grace through faith that gets us there. >> Yeah. I think some of it I always say it's like TVs, right? Like so if you go in my house I have a man cave. I have a TV. >> Yeah. what it say >> and I watch, you know, like there's a lot of news, a lot of sports. Um, so if you go in the living room, uh, you know, it's funny how a little bit of life's changed, but that's still the place where they'll we'll get like the other night we watched a movie in there. Um, they'll watch American Idol or they'll watch Survivor. And so that's some of the kids. And so, um, in the bedroom, that's where Corey watches TV. Like, Corey likes to watch TV until she goes to sleep. Um, she's watching the stupidest like British baking [ __ ] Just garbage, you know, and I'm just like, um, and then if you go in the kids area and that's where you have cartoons or, you know, and so that's just in my house. And so um you know if you went down to Phil's house back when he was alive he he was what you been down he's watched like it was always wester like >> gunm smoke or something >> gunm smoke some black and white western >> so that's the thing I mean you we you know I think sometimes we kind of want you know like the old churches are like it's like they all made us watch Gunsmoke because that's what they like. Mhm. >> And so we're sitting in there, it's like, "Oh, this is terrible." You know, this is old. And so, um, and so I think it's it's okay, you know, you have different some people. I mean, go across the planet, go to Africa and go to church, you know, it's different. Like, >> yeah, >> it's a lot different. I mean, at least places I've been, you know, um, you know, there there's like a community like we were singing and dancing all together, you know. um and go to other pl you know so you'll see different flavors and bird and that's okay that's because people are you know it's how they want to you know I wouldn't expect a guy that's 75 years old to worship the same as a somebody that's 25 you know or 15 or >> um and so I think that's that's kind of hard when you when you're trying to get it all together and say h how do you and so I I realize it's tougher and that's why I think you've got set that up where people can um learn outside of it. But also, one of the things I think we're lacking is is is actual teaching. We're not making people teachers. I think like we used to. So, um so I would encourage us to to train other people so that they can teach, you know, cuz like like you can get up and listen to a guy and you're like, >> are you talking about like seminaries are missing the mark? like not teaching people how to teach or >> see I don't think it should be that formal. I think I mean it can be. I'm just saying >> it can be done either way. >> You should bring up people in your congregation >> that can that know how to teach the Bible. >> Yeah. >> Um >> even in a one-on-one context like teaching someone how to disciple somebody >> or get up and Yeah. >> or get up and deliver a message to the entire congregation >> or to a certain portion of it or whatever. Yeah. >> So should you don't Yeah. I think that's the part when you got these really slick um great communicators. I mean, you're listening to them and most people are going like there's no way. I mean, the other night I was listening to I was like and I'm looking at the crowd. I'm going most of these people are like there's no way you're ever going to get this much knowledge. Like this cat knows like he's went to seminary but he's also studied and so he knows a lot of stuff and so people are like there's no way I can do that. I think if we're not training people how to teach, then you're just going to have one person that you're basically paying some money to and they're the ones doing the communicate. I think that it's got to be all of us, you know? >> Well, and they're the ones doing the studying and then again, like I said earlier, when people just turn their brains off because it's like, well, I don't need to study it because I just my pastor is going to do that for me and then he's going to explain it to me. Even going back Yeah, you're going back to the guy in the chariot where it's like, no, someone needs to explain this to me. But, uh, here in a minute, we need to go get you some non-exloded deodorant. But, um, Got to get out. Yeah, I got to speak tonight. >> Yeah, you got to speak. >> I told you we was going to go. Oh, look. We done blown way past. >> I tried to I tried to stop you and you just wouldn't you just wouldn't let me. So, we'll make this last question since we talked about legacy and you're already counting down the years cuz you you saw when when Phil uh went home and you know, you're counting down from where you are now. >> I mean, when all's said and done, right? >> So, when when your days on this earth are done and you know, you're no longer the duck guy or the guy on television or the bearded guy in the airport or whatever the thing is. >> Yeah. like what what do you want people to say about you? What do you want your legacy to be? Because it's not like, hey, what's on your tombstone? That's going to say, you know, husband, father, you know, that kind of stuff really. >> Like what do you want your what do you want your legacy to be for the long run? >> Um, I don't know. That's a great that. See, a question like that would probably take me 45 days to answer. >> Well, you can have about 45 seconds. So, >> yeah, there's no way. I I think, you know um >> I do like what uh what did Charlie say? That was um what did he say? >> I know what you're talking about. >> What did he say to Was it Gavin Newsome when he was talking? Um what did he say? I want them to know. Um it was something about faith. >> Yeah. Yeah. It was basically his dedication to the Bible. I can't remember the exact quote, but I know what you're talking about. >> Yeah. I I like Yeah. Crap. I wish I but when he said that that um yeah I mean I think I would hopefully be a gospeler you know somebody's like the guy had the gospel on his lips you know um for a lot that would be um he was a known gospeller >> and that's actually the term from like the 1800s that's what they would call people probably people like me like I'm not a pastor I'm not a um because it wasn't that it was just people who were known to share the gospel specifically to share the good news either in front of a lot of people or personally. We do that a lot and so um and so yeah, I would I would like that. >> All right, man. Well, let's get you ready for your speech. >> Thanks for coming. >> Let's get ready to rumble. Awesome, man. Enjoyed it. Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive fivestar review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast or shoot me an email to info@undantton.life, that's info@undaon.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www.undton.life. And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is their song Perpetual, which is off their self-titled debut album on Faceown Records. The links are in the description. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the Lion of Judah.