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[Music]
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This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it.
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All right, guys. Today, we've got a special guest on the podcast. His name is Warren Farrell,
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so he is an author, political scientist, and activist. He's written several books to include
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the myth of male power, why men earn more, and the main focus of today's discussion,
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and that's this the boy crisis, why our boys are struggling, and what we can do about it.
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And that is only 100 books every modern Christian man should read list. That is in our show notes,
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and that is also on our website. Just go to undaunted.life/booklist. But Warren Farrell is
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described as the father of the men's movement. Okay, now that's going to be interesting to some
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of you if you know a little bit about his background, but I ask him about that right at the top of
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the overall interview. And it's just it was such a fun interview because this book is so unbelievably
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dense. If you're a father of sons, you have to read the boy crisis. Whether or and also for
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for mothers of sons, it's just such an incredible book. There's so much information there. And that's
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the interesting thing about this particular conversation is we couldn't get into all the
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different areas I wanted to get into. Okay, I did ask him about, you know, kind of his his
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past in the national organization for women and how he described himself as a feminist.
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But then we dig into the boy crisis and we talk about the negativity that surrounds fatherhood
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and also what happens to boys when their dads are not around specifically if they are dad deprived
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boys. We talk about, you know, basically what modernity has done to young boys that we don't
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live in this area of time where we have to struggle for survival in a lot of ways and how that's a
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deleterious thing for a lot of boys. Then we talk about the purpose void for a lot of boys in
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modernity. They don't really have a purpose to live for. But then we really do spend the majority of
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our time talking about dad deprived boys and kind of what it's like as a society. We've tried this
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experiment for decades and decades now where we pretend as if dad isn't necessary or needed.
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And then we just ignore all the warning signs that tell us that he absolutely is. And then we
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wrapped up our discussion day by talking about rights of passage. And again, guys,
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this might be one of those episodes where I normally do the episode and then tell you to go read the
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book. You might want to go ahead and read the boy crisis and then come back to this interview
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because he says so many things that since I just got through reading the boy crisis here
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recently, they just made so much sense to me because I've basically been marinated in this content
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for a long period of time. So I really, really enjoyed my time. But before we get into the
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discussion today, I do want to remind you about the upper room in the king's council. So attention
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to all the business owners out there listening to this or if you're an entrepreneur or soon to
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be entrepreneur, this message is certainly for you. So the upper room in the king's council,
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their mission is to create wealth and provision for the purpose of establishing God's covenant
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on earth. So they do that in a myriad of different ways and they make it very, very unique and it's
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set up for all of you individually. But they equip entrepreneurs like you guys with the tools
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and systems and frameworks that are necessary in order for you to develop and deploy those
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given visions and talents into the marketplace because if you can't make it sustainable,
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then what good is it? And then we talk about the upper room mastermind as well. We've talked about
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that on this show. But for existing entrepreneurs, you need a tribe of people, you need people that
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think like you do that are bold. But specifically, if you are a Christian that is leading a business,
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you need people that are kingdom leaders that are focused on the Bible, focus on the gospel,
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focus on the triune God, then that's what the upper room is because there are a lot of mastermind
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groups that are out there, but they don't really align with who you are as a person. But that's what
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the upper upper room mastermind group is. So they host virtual and in person events every month,
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focusing on business strategies that will help you increase and sustain your revenue over the
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long term, but they provide accountability and a lot of other things. It's very, very customizable.
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If you want a little bit more information on that group, go to episode 355 of this podcast.
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That's where I interviewed the founder. It was Riley Meek. He's the founder of both of these
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things. And the name of that episode is the King Entrepreneurship and Money. But then in that
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episode, Riley Meek specifically talked about how he wanted to do a specific deal for the
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listeners of Undaunted Life of Man's podcast, where he wanted to meet with you individually to see
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if this would be a good fit for you. And if that would be a good relationship moving forward,
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that's not something that he does for a lot of other people. So what he said to do is to text
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upper room. So that's u P P E R and then room R O O M upper room to 727 472 3860 guys that will
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be in the show notes do not try to do that while you're driving 727 472 3860 text upper room to 727 472
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3860 to get an application to schedule a one on one with Riley Meek of the upper room in the
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King's Council. Again, just one last time that's upper room U P P E R O M to 727 472 3860 to schedule
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your one on one with the founder of the upper room in the King's Council, Riley Meek. So guys,
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we're so thankful to the upper room and King's Council for giving us that deal. So that could
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be passed on you guys. And we are unbelievably thankful to Warren Farrell and to his team for
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getting this scheduled, you know, it's kind of difficult to get someone like that on the show to
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talk for any length of time. And gosh, we could have talked for way, way longer, but I'm not going
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to keep him from you any longer. So without further ado, let's get into it. Warren Farrell,
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welcome to Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm looking forward to talking with you.
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Hey, we were having a great conversation off air. And it's like, okay, we need to go and hit the
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record button because I don't want to get all the great stuff off air. But just as a means of
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introduction, it's always a little bit interesting because I do an intro and I kind of give everybody
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a little bit of an idea. But I've heard you described as the father of the men's movement.
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Okay. Now this might strike some people as odd, especially when they find out that you used to
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serve on the board for the national organization of women, you've described yourself as a feminist.
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So to some people, that's going to seem like a little bit of oil and water situation. So
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if you could give us a spark notes version, the 30,000 foot view as to you and your career
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and why people would describe you as a father of the men's movement.
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Yes. My career started in the late 1960s, when the women's movement surfaced, I took a really
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strong interest in it, changed my doctoral dissertation to focus on it. That got me involved in
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there was a big dispute in the national organization for women about whether they should have men or
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not. They concluded that if I could get start some men's groups to get the women out of the men
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out of the women's hair, and if that worked, they would continue to allow men in the groups.
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And so I did that and it worked very well. And I ended up starting some 300 men's groups and
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about 250 women's groups as I spoke around the country. I gave people the opportunity to do that.
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I was very much in favor of women expanding and still am in favor of women expanding their options
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and being able to be as significant in the world or do whatever they wish to do in terms of raising
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children, raising money, doing some combination of both. I'm still very much supportive of that.
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However, the women's, what happened in the meantime in the last half century is that boys and men
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have developed significant issues that very few people are aware of to the degree that led me
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to realize that as I started doing the research on that, after 14 years of research that led to
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the Boy Crisis book and to understanding a lot of men's issues, like male-only draft registration
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and men dying sooner on 14 out of 15 of the leading causes of death. And boys committing suicide
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increasingly as they grew older up until they're from age 14 to their 20s until it was five times
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as much as girls and boys not graduating from college nearly as frequently as girls in the near
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future. Boys will only half the number of boys will be graduating from college as girls. These
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are major, major problems, problems for our daughters, problems for our sons. Notice I said
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problems for our daughters too. We're all in the same family boat and when only one sex wins,
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both sexes lose. And I was increasingly seeing that we were doing a great job focusing on
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what concerned women, but we were not doing a great job focusing on what concerns our sons,
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what's hurting our sons. And we were not doing a great job after divorces to keep the father
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involved with the children. And we didn't understand how important that was after divorce. And we
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didn't understand how important it was that single mothers raising children with minimal or no
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father involvement. The problems that led to for both girls and boys, but particularly for boys
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without any male role model. And so as I began to see that, I began to speak up about that.
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And what happened was really fascinating. My standing ovations became sitting ovations,
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and my five or six referrals to new speaking engagements for each speaking engagement I did
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dwindled down to zero to one referral. And I went, you know, I basically went from 50 speaking
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engagements per year down to zero to one. And so it was really, so I knew that it was going to
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cost a great deal if I started to articulate men's issues and boys issues as well as women's
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issues. And so, and then I increasingly saw feminism focusing on victim is getting a sort of victim
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power saying that men were the oppressors and women were the oppressed. And that's just plain,
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not accurate. So I started explaining why that wasn't accurate. And in a way that most, most
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conservatives and most Christians got almost immediately. But many feminists just stayed with
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the men as the oppressors and women as the oppressed. And so I began to resist that. And as a result,
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you know, lost all the speaking engagement referrals that I got from the feminist movement. And but
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I'm able to survive. And I was wanting to make sure that that I did what I felt was right in life.
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Well, and your your work has been so it's been such a blessing to me personally because I followed
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your work for a while. And I reached out to you specifically because I don't like to just reach
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out to people like, Hey, I want to talk to you for a reason. I don't know. Like I want to talk
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about something very specific. And and you brought up a lot of topics there. And unfortunately,
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we don't have five or six hours today to get into all of them. But I do want to talk about one
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thing just briefly, because I just got another email today. And it's from these men that struggle
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to create men's groups. Right. And so they struggle with this whole concept of like, well,
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what do we do? Because some people, especially in the conservative Christian realm, they're like,
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Hey, y'all just get together. Here's a book. Y'all read the book all at the same time while
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ignoring the fact that most men don't like to read, while ignoring the fact that most men don't
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like sitting in a circle and talking to a group of people that they haven't accomplished anything
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with. It wasn't like they all just got done taking down a woolly mammoth. And now they're all sitting
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around talking about it. It's not just like they got done, you know, charging the front lines of a
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rival army. And now the battle's over and they get to circle up and talk about it. It's just kind of
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like this faux male bonding thing that they just toss people into. But what have you seen? Again,
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we could spend all day talking about this. But just briefly, what have you seen in terms of the
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benefits of creating these men's groups and how to create them and make them sustainable?
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Yeah, very, very important point. So one of the things that that often happens is that boys grow up
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with minimal what I call dad deprived, particularly if they're raised by mother from the beginning
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and with either maybe living with a man, but when a man and woman get together and have a child and
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they're living together, not married, that relationship lasted only an average of three to three and a
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half years. And then usually the father is minimally involved after that in the children's life.
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And the problem is that the boy feels abandoned. He has no male role model. He doesn't and the
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female, the daughter also is damaged significantly by the lack of father involvement. However,
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the daughter, the level of intensity of the daughter's damage is less. And so when I say
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damage, I mean, as parents, there's about 70 different measurements of what a successful child is.
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Is the child depressed? Are they addicted to video games? Are they addicted to porn? Are they
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alcoholics? Are they taking drugs? Are they doing well in school? Are they doing well in their
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social skills? Are they? Do they have friends? Do they have postpone gratification? Are they able
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to do things metrics like that with minimal or no father involvement? Daughters do worse than
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daughters with father involvement in more than 50 areas, actually 70 areas, but 50 major areas.
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And boys also do worse in 50 plus areas, but they do significantly worse than their daughters.
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That our daughters do. Boys without male role models and with in broken families tend to have
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many challenges with depression and with not knowing who they are, being failures to launch,
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not having that good postpone gratification and not having discipline, not having motivation,
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not having a sense of purpose, a sense of mission. And so why this is the case is why these outcomes
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was the, for me, the most fascinating stuff that I found when I was doing the research for
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the Boy Crisis book, I didn't realize the degree of that. But as I've been sort of talking about that,
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many parents are very, especially moms, they feel well, they recognize that if they are not in an
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intact family and the dad is minimally involved, they recognize that their son should have positive
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male role models. One of the ways of getting a positive male role model is having yours is
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for you to evaluate the minister, the priest, the rabbi, the imam, let's say it's a minister,
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and make sure that he's that there's a male minister or a male sub minister at a big church
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that would take care of creating boy groups for your son and groups for your son to get together
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with other boys about his age. And so for example, one of the things that is done in some of these
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groups is that the minister might pass out a mask and have all the boys fill out on that mask
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what the other way they present themselves to the world. And then in the back of the mask,
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their inner feelings and fears that they have, their insecurities that they have, the way they
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really feel inside. There's always an enormous gap, and the guarantee ahead of time is that
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nobody else in the room will see this, and the group will see this unless that person
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volunteers that that's their mask. And so then all the masks are read on the outside how the
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boy presents himself and what he's feeling on the inside. And what the boy sees is that almost
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everybody presents themselves as strong on the outside and feels insecure on the inside. Well,
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what a boy sees that six other seven other boys all feel exactly that same way. They suddenly
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don't feel so alone with those insecurities. And so they don't really need to be as they see how
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silly that mask is because everybody's experiencing it. And so that's just one of many, many examples
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that are confidential. And when I say confidential, I mean confidential that what is said in that
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group is not said by anybody outside of the group. It's not said, well, you know, John in that group
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said, you know, this about himself and, you know, ha, ha, let's laugh and mock him. Then that then
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that moves most young boys back into a fear of speaking up their real truths again. And so for
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you as a dad or a mom and getting male good male role models in your son's life, what I found is
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very important is that is to understand the history of masculinity. And the history of masculinity is
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that that throughout all of evolution among animals, among insects, women chose males to
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reproduce with that were alpha males that were protector males. And that worked very well for
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the safety of the children that worked very well for the safety of the community. And an example of
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that is that every generation had its war. And during that war, Uncle Sam or some equivalent said
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some version of, you know, we need you to fight in this war so that we will not be taken over by
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Nazis, for example. And boys and boys and young men were told they were needed. They responded.
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And they responded by being willing to be to being willing to die so that everyone else would live.
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Every generation of boys who was asked to to be will to die recognize that being willing to be
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disposable was very much okay with them if they save women, if they could save children, if they
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could save the society. The problem with that is the process that it takes to learn to be disposable
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disconnects you from your feelings and your fears. And that's good for the society to have
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saviors like that. But boys that are disconnected from their feelings and their fears, they start
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still feeling those, but it all piles up inside of them. They start putting on masks of strength
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that no one else can see. And after a while, they become disconnected from their feelings and
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their fears so that they don't even recognize that they have them. And that becomes toxic
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for boys. They often start time start drinking or or withdrawing into video games and boys are
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far more likely to be addicted to video games than girls are. And then if they don't have father
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involvement, they usually don't do nearly as well in school. They don't do as well on the track team
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or the football team or or as actors or musicians, they don't have the discipline to create
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the outcomes that they need. And therefore, they start to not be very attractive if they start
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dropping out of school, getting bad grades, if they don't have a they're a failure to launch,
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they're living in their parents basement. They're on an unemployment line. Girls who are looking for
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future young women who are looking for future fathers, they don't search on unemployment lines.
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They don't search in parents basement to see boys that are living at home. They don't they want
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boys who are winners, not losers. And it's boys don't perform effectively. They experience themselves
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as losers and girls make it clear to them that that's not their first choice for males to to to
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date. If they're really tall and handsome, the women will date them and have sex with them,
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but they won't go to the next step of having a long-term relationship getting married and
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having children with them. They'll eventually get rejected. So the boys who get rejected,
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they often turn to pornography because pornography is access to a variety of attractive women
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by the boy without fear of rejection at a price he can afford. And so he then begins to get addicted
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to porn. And when he gets addicted to porn, there's many problems with that. But one of those problems
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is that he becomes desensitized to normal sexuality with an intimate communication skills with a
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complex woman. And so he just starts treating the woman like a sex object if he ever does
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have a connection with a woman. And the result of that is the woman feels treated like an object,
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like a porn object. And she resents that and withdraws because she should. And then he feels
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rejected. And the result is that everybody loses. And so these are just some examples
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of the problems that boys face when they have minimal or no father involvement that I found when
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I did the boy crisis. And this is despite the fact that many single mothers, they're among the hardest
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working people in the culture. And they work very hard to make things good for their sons.
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They oftentimes feel overwhelmed. They don't have enough time to be able to be number one at work.
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And they often feel guilty that they're not taking care of their children to the degree that they
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should be able to take care of their children. They feel caught between a rock and a hard place.
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And as I said overwhelmed. And so we need to make sure that fathers are inspired, that we tell
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fathers that they are needed because when men are told that they are needed, they are even willing
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to, as we saw, die to respond to being needed. And we're not giving that message to fathers these
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days. The only people that are doing that is that Christians are doing and Mormons are doing a
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much better job of that than most people. But particularly on the political left, it's all about
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women and girls. And it's not about understanding that we're all in the same family boat. And as I
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said before, but only one sex wins, both sexes lose. Absolutely. And I think you brought up so many
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great things there. And most of that, guys, again, it is in this book, The Boy Crisis. Why are boys
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are struggling and what we can do about it? It's a book that you co wrote with John Gray. I think it
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was back in 2018. Thank you again for shooting me this copy. You brought up so many things there. So
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it would be I don't want to give short shrift to anything because there's so many of these things
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that I do want to talk about. But you said something right there at the end that I want to key in on
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because a buddy of yours, Jordan Peterson, I know you've been on his show and those things like that.
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This is something that he did here recently that has been very impactful for me, but also to a lot
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of Christians. When he did that YouTube video where it was the, you know, the message to the
22:05
to the American church or message to the Christian church, it was basically talking about men and
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young boys, specifically young boys, how churches should basically have big neon signs saying,
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we're here for you come in, we need you those types of things. But I've been in the men's ministry
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space for for a long time, you know, not nearly as long as you've been in the men's space. But I've
22:22
been doing this for quite a while. And the thing that I see Warren is the exact opposite of that.
22:27
Most churches may as well have a blinking neon sign outside that says, this is not for you.
22:33
We didn't have you in mind when we picked out the music. We didn't have you in mind when we picked
22:36
out the sermon content. You are not needed here. And then they're shocked, Warren, whenever the
22:41
volunteers are almost all women, when the people that want to go on the mission trips are all women,
22:45
when women and their children go to church and their fathers are somewhere else hunting or at
22:50
the shooting range or shooting baskets or getting ready for another fantasy football draft or
22:54
watching porn or playing video games or whatever. So talk to me a little bit more about what you've
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seen because churches are the only places that seem to put an emphasis on that, as you mentioned.
23:04
But my goodness, it's like they're slowing the uptake because it's like so many churches have a
23:09
dearth of men and they look around as if it's not their fault. Yes, yes, absolutely. Well said. And
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it is true that the churches and the Christian community have a much better understanding of the
23:21
importance of families and the importance of fathers than probably any other portion of the
23:26
society does have. And at the same time, the church is not conducted in such a way that is user-friendly
23:34
to men. User-friendly to men means things that are, it means having males participate
23:40
in the process. Men are not good at listening to lectures. They don't learn well by listening.
23:49
Men learn well by doing. And so it is very important for the Christian community to be able to
23:57
to sponsor outings that involve the children and the fathers and the mothers where they're
24:04
camping, where they're doing things around a fireplace during camping, where they're getting
24:11
men involved in projects to work with children. So we need in the Christian community to establish
24:20
ways of involving fathers that ask of the fathers to do things. The Christian community
24:30
needs to share with fathers exactly what they do that is different from what mothers do
24:39
that leads to children who have what I call checks and balance parenting. That is the best
24:46
of father-style parenting and the best of mother-style parenting. Those are the children that do the
24:51
best. But churches in no place in the boy crisis books, many, many areas of the differences between
24:59
dad-style parenting and mom-style parenting. And so when a father goes to church and he doesn't
25:09
hear that rough housing is really positive for his children. He doesn't feel supported in his
25:16
style of parenting. So for example, a dad will typically, maybe let's say he has three children,
25:23
two sons and a daughter, and he'll throw them on the couch and say, "Okay, kids, your turn is,
25:29
your job is to jump on my back and pin me down before I pin the three of you down."
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The kids go, "Oh, right dad, I'm good. I can't wait to do this." And a bond is beginning to be
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created between the dad and the children, which is a very important bond, which I'll talk more
25:45
about in a moment. But the mom, as understandably, I'll go off watching this and saying, "Oh my god,
25:51
I think that if they rough house like that sooner or later, somebody's going to get hurt."
25:55
Well, it's only about 99% likely that she's right. And somebody gets hurt. And then the
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mom feels guilty that she didn't say something sooner because she intuitively knew that. She
26:07
should have paid attention to her intuition. But on the other hand, she didn't want to be
26:09
controlling and she saw the kids were having fun. And she's caught between the rock and a
26:13
hard place on that issue. But she says, "Okay, now one of the children have gotten hurt. Okay,
26:17
dad's taking care of that and saying, don't do that again." So now dad has learned his lesson.
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But no, dad goes back to the rough housing after he gets a promise from the kids that they won't
26:29
behave so aggressively again. Or they'll think of their child. They won't stick their elbow in
26:33
their sister's eye. And mom goes, "Oh god, dad hasn't learned." And then the dad goes back to the
26:44
rough housing. And sure enough, mom's right again. One of the kids gets hurt again. And so now dad says,
26:51
now though dad says usually, "Okay, I gave you a warning. That's the end of the rough housing.
26:57
We won't rough house again until maybe let's say it's Sunday night now. We will rough house again
27:01
until Wednesday or some time later when you've been really good. I'll go back to the rough housing
27:05
with you." And mom goes, "Great that you stopped. But you're going to go back to the process. They
27:10
hurt the children twice. But no one understands that when the dad goes back to that process,
27:18
on let's say Wednesday night, and then the children violated, then the children are calculating
27:24
differently. Now they know that if they push their brother and sister aside, that they're going to
27:31
lose the rough housing that they want to lose, that they want to have. And so therefore they don't,
27:39
they have to think of their sister's feelings and their brother's feelings and their brother's
27:42
fears. And what would hurt their brothers, they have to make distinctions between what's aggressive
27:47
and what's assertive in order to get what they want, the rough housing. So what's happening here
27:54
is multiple, and each of the male, female differences, dad, mom differences in parenting
27:59
styles, has some parallel to this. But so just to make it really clear what this is entails,
28:06
what's happening here in the rough housing is first, dad is creating a bond with the kids.
28:11
And that makes the kids want to do what dad asks to do. Secondly, he's not just setting boundaries.
28:21
Like if you do that, and the rough housing, he's enforcing boundaries, which is when they violate
28:29
that and they hurt their brother and sister, he ends the rough housing for a while so that the
28:36
children know that they will lose something when they're not considered are their brothers and
28:42
sisters feelings, or their friends that are invited over his feelings. And so the result of that
28:48
is that the data shows that the children who rough house in this type of way with the father
28:53
are more likely to become empathetic. That is, you know, if a dad said to a mom, you know,
29:00
I want a rough house with the children so the children will become more empathetic. Like that's
29:04
the most counterintuitive and seems like a ridiculous statement possible. But what's happening there,
29:11
as you can see, is the children are now being required to think about someone else other than
29:16
their needs and immediate gratification. Secondly, the children are learning postponed
29:22
gratification. They'd like to push their brother and sister aside to win at the rough housing,
29:28
but they do or they're going to lose the rough housing. So now they have to think about their
29:34
brothers and sisters feelings, not exercise of immediate gratification, in order to be able to
29:40
get the long term postponed gratification of the rough housing. So they're learning postponed
29:46
gratification, postponed gratification is the single biggest predictor of success or failure in life,
29:52
postponed gratification is the single biggest predictor of success or failure in life. And
29:58
they're learning that they're learning empathy. Empathy is one of the most important character
30:03
development traits that a human being can have and every Christian knows this. And that is also
30:10
what they're learning in the process. They're building a bond with their dad that makes it less,
30:15
makes them resent less going along and paying attention to their dad because their dad is the
30:21
source of fun and excitement. And they want to not alienate their source of fun and excitement.
30:28
So these are just a few and when a boy and girl has this postponed gratification, they tend to
30:34
be able to fulfill the dreams that they have. If they're a good basketball player, football player,
30:40
actor, musician, artist, writer, they can exercise the discipline that emanates from postponed
30:49
gratification. Then they feel good about themselves and then teachers praise them, the parents praise
30:54
them. Their peers respect them. Girls date winners, not losers. Girls, if they're a boy,
31:02
are very happy to date the winners and not so happy to date the losers. And so at every level,
31:09
they feel better about themselves. And that leads to a life where they're less likely to withdraw
31:16
and to drugs drinking video game addiction and feel angry at themselves inside.
31:23
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31:53
for you. Well, and a lot of that information that you shared there, Warren, that's the reason we
31:57
have a book list on our website called the 100 books every modern Christian man should read.
32:01
Listen, and we have a boyhood section and the boy crisis is prominently featured in that section.
32:07
And part of the reason is because this is a it's a must read if you have sons. So I have a two-year-old
32:11
and a six-month-old bull sons. And so it's a must read for where I'm at currently in my life,
32:16
but also if you have daughters, because you learned about the expectations of the type of
32:19
male, you should want to welcome into the life of your young daughter. But there was a quote from
32:24
the middle. Oh, one other quick thing. There was a picture from the book that I showed to my wife
32:28
and she thought it was amazing. It was a picture of a dad that's like throwing a kid up in the air.
32:32
And then it's like, it's the actual picture where the kids, you know, maybe two feet away from his
32:37
arms. And then there's what the kid thinks. And it's that he's like 10 feet above dad. And then
32:42
there's what the mom sees. And it's that the kids basically off and out her space. And I show that
32:46
to my wife because, you know, she gets on me sometimes. She's like, Oh my gosh, you're going to hurt
32:50
those boys. And I'm like, no, no, I'm not. I'm going to protect these boys. But I thought that
32:53
was a great pictorial representation of what we were trying to say there. But there was a quote
32:57
somewhere around the middle of the book that I think is interesting because it goes into a lot of
33:00
the things that you you lay out in a very like I love all the references in the book because you
33:05
lay it out in a very academic manner, the problems that we're seeing with boys. So let me read this
33:09
quote here. But since as we've seen the boy crisis is a problem in all 63 of the largest developed
33:15
nations, changes are it's not your fault. Rather it is the fault of problems that have infiltrated
33:21
millions of families in developed countries, problems created, ironically, by a good thing,
33:26
easier access to the means of survival. So this reminds me of the poem that I can't remember
33:31
who it's attributed to, but it's hard times create strong men, strong men create good times,
33:36
good times create weak men, weak men create hard times. And I feel like we're in the cycle right
33:41
now, Warren, where we have a lot of weak men in culture and society at large, whether in politics
33:46
and in business and in entertainment. These weak men, these weak willed, mealy malt men,
33:51
creating these unbelievable hard times for people all over the globe, that they're actually getting
33:56
in the way of capital P progress, you know, as we see the progress of time going forward.
34:02
But specifically, this is a major, major detriment to the development overall of our boys, because
34:08
we're making it easier for them to not help dad out with the business because dad travels for a
34:14
living or dad works remotely. And he basically sits in his underwear all day staring at a screen.
34:18
And he doesn't have to go out in the field and help. He can get just as much dopamine in his brain
34:24
from playing football with his thumbs on a PlayStation as opposed to going out and playing
34:28
pickup football. And you spent a lot of time talking about pickup sports inside of that book.
34:32
But talk to me a little bit about that continuum that we're on right now where
34:36
times have gotten so unbelievably easy for us when it comes to the attainment of a mate or a food
34:42
or of just generalized comfort and how that's actually having a deleterious effect on us.
34:46
Yes, absolutely. I think the broader picture here is that throughout all of history,
34:52
boys were brought up with a purpose. Today, they have what I call a purpose void.
34:59
Okay, let's go back to the purpose. The purpose throughout all of history was when a boy was
35:04
becoming a man. Somebody said, for example, "Yeah, there's Uncle Joe. He was in the Marines. He died
35:09
in the Marines in the Second World War. He was really a hero, a great man. Yes, he died when he
35:14
was 19, but that's why we should really respect and honor him." And here this boy is being criticized
35:20
by dad, mom, and maybe peers and feels, "Okay, I have a way of really being a hero." And so I'm
35:27
going to train myself to be a great Marine and everybody will respect me. Well, he may die sooner,
35:35
but he ends up feeling like that. That's his purpose. Now, maybe he didn't go into the armed
35:41
services, but he learned that he's needed as a provider protector. And as a provider,
35:49
he'll be the one that has to earn the money. So he's a goofball in 10th grade, 9th grade,
35:54
but around 11th grade, he realizes if he doesn't go to college, if he doesn't get his act together,
35:58
he's going to be a loser. So he begins to get together in my class,
36:04
high school graduating class. Most of the guys turned around around the 11th grade,
36:08
and they started getting their act together to get ready for college. And they knew that they'd
36:13
be losers if they didn't. Or they went into some type of vocation where they could at least make
36:20
a decent living if they weren't academically inclined. But now, two things have changed.
36:27
We need fewer people in war than we used to die as soldiers than we used to. So many boys are
36:34
experiencing a purpose void in that area. And women are doing a much better job at sharing the
36:41
burdens of economic responsibility than they used to be. And so now, boys may or may not be needed
36:50
to supply income at the level, but never at the level of, it's absolutely mandatory for every boy
36:57
to do that for any woman that he wants at all, because some women are doing a good job with that
37:02
himself. So those are good news things. We want fewer boys to be killed in war, and it's wonderful
37:09
when women and men are sharing the responsibilities for earning income. However, it's left boys with
37:15
a purpose void. Now that purpose void has a purpose opportunity. And that is when a mom and dad look
37:24
at their son, and they have the freedom to say, you know, who are you, my son, not just a future
37:31
disposable male, or climb some type of corporate ladder to earn money as a human doing, but not
37:39
as a human being. We care about you as a human being. And because women are sharing more of the
37:47
economic responsibilities, you have some freedom to be able to not just have to produce all the
37:52
money when you have to produce all the money, what you end up doing is not doing things that
37:57
are fulfilling, because fulfilling occupations almost never pay as much as less fulfilling occupations
38:05
do, because the more fulfilling the occupation, like artist or writer or musician, the more people
38:10
want to do that. And therefore, the more competition there is for that, the supply goes up in the
38:18
relation to the demand, and therefore the price that you get paid as a teacher goes down. Or as a
38:24
musician or artist or writer, the hence the word starving artist. And so, but now with women
38:31
sharing more of that responsibility, the boy maybe has a chance to be able to teach in an
38:37
elementary school, if that's what his passion is. We're able to talk to our sons about passion,
38:43
that that was never a word that we could talk to our sons about. But if our children are nurtured
38:50
to have passion without discipline, then the more passionate fulfilling the occupation,
39:00
the more it requires discipline to be at the very top of that field in order to survive. If you're
39:06
a basketball player, in order to get a good income, you have to be on the NBA or the WNBA,
39:14
in order to have a good income. As an actor, as a writer, I know as an author, there's only about,
39:20
you know, one tenth of one percent of authors that can make a living doing that. And so that
39:25
requires an enormous amount of discipline. I get up at five in the morning to work in my books
39:31
that I'm working on. That's not what the ideal time for me to get up. But that's what's needed
39:38
to write a good responsible book and then promote it to the degree of being able to be
39:44
available aware. So those are the things that our sons have the opportunity to do. But as a rule,
39:53
moms tend to see the child's, the children's gifts, particularly the gifts of the son,
39:59
and then encourage the children to fulfill, to pursue their gifts, but often do not require
40:07
them to hold up to their end of the bargain in relation to what the parents can give. I'll give
40:15
an example of that. If a boy is, let's say, going to basketball practice or music practice or soccer
40:24
practice and wants to become a professional soccer player, and the father and mother are
40:30
getting special tutoring and taking them to and from the classes, and they're really breaking their
40:35
backs to allow the child to have exceptional skills in this area. And then the child says,
40:40
you know, yes, I want to be in the Olympics, but I have an invitation to go to a friend's
40:49
birthday party. And the parents think, well, we want the child to go to the friend's birthday
40:53
party. And then we want the child to be able to play that new video game if he or she wants to.
40:58
And before you know it, the child is not focused on the discipline that's necessary to become
41:03
outstanding in his or her field. And dad says something like, you know, sweetie, you can go ahead
41:08
and not become an Olympic gymnast. But if your desire is to become Olympic, an Olympic gymnast,
41:15
you won't have a chance to have a life outside of that that's that's well developed. And you'll
41:20
become, you know, here's the downsides of that. But if you choose that, and we're going to take
41:25
you to all these, these games and these places to compete, and we're going to pay for special
41:31
tutoring and things like that for you and work harder, then you have to have your end of the bargain
41:35
as well. And then the child may have cry and mama say, Oh, that's so mean. We can't make the child
41:42
cry like that. You know, that's, that's, you know, you have to think of the value to the child of,
41:46
of, you know, going to this to his friend's birthday party and so on. There's a lot of value to the
41:51
child in that. But if the child's goal is, is the other, then the child has to learn trade-offs
41:58
and sacrifices and choices to make. And then if the parents are going to cooperate and making that
42:04
possible. And that's so that's so this type of communication needs to happen between the father
42:10
and the mother and the child. And that's why in the boy crisis book, I took about the importance of
42:15
family dinner nights and structuring those family dinner nights in such a way as so they don't become
42:20
family dinner nightmares. So everybody can hear each other effectively. So everyone knows how to
42:26
listen very effectively to each other's perspectives and feelings. And there's, and then the parental
42:32
communication, the father and mother communicating with each other in a way that allows the father
42:36
to hear, you know, is it worth making our son or daughter cry or miss, miss, miss parent, miss
42:44
social opportunities to become an Olympic gymnast. And are we encouraging them too much to that?
42:49
And, and the father is saying, well, here's the trade-offs and, and that all requires very subtle
42:56
and caring communication, which both the mother and the father understand the best intent of the
43:01
other parent, and that the mother and father listen so carefully to allow the best intent to be,
43:09
to know that their, that their best intent is being heard. And that's, and what I just said to,
43:17
to do when a mother and father are communicating different things that they feel is right for the
43:24
child, both of them feel criticized. And one of the things that I've done for the last 30 years is
43:30
couples communication workshops to allow fathers and mothers to know how to be able to handle the
43:36
perspectives of the other parent in such a way that they can, that the other parent feels fully
43:44
heard and seen rather than do what we biologically do naturally, which is when we hear ourselves being
43:50
criticized, we respond to criticism defensively. That's biologically natural to do, because when we
43:58
heard, when, when people thousands of years ago heard criticisms, they thought it was a possible
44:03
enemy. And it was functional for survival to get up their defenses, to be able to defeat the enemy
44:09
before the enemy defeated them. And so here, be being defensive was functional for survival,
44:17
but it's just dysfunctional for intimacy and for love. And so we have to really learn to do an
44:23
evolutionary shift of hearing everyone in the family's perspectives, both to keep the family
44:30
together, but also to train everyone to know how to hear the perspectives that are different from
44:36
theirs. When you get into a lot of detail into all those things in the book, and just to go back to
44:41
a thing, an important point when you're talking about family dinner nights, you give some, I guess,
44:45
modules in here of some ways that you could help structure those family dinner nights,
44:48
which I know may strike some people's eye because it's like, well, we need to make it organic. It's
44:52
like, well, you can, you can give scaffolding to something and it can still be organic. And so
44:57
you do that throughout the book, which I found to be very, very important. Now, one thing earlier on
45:01
in this discussion of Warren, you talked about dad deprived boys, you use that phrase specifically.
45:06
So I'm going to read a couple of quotes from the book, because I think this, this might be the
45:09
most valuable thing that we talk about today, because you're talking to a whole heck of a lot
45:12
of dads right now. So here's a quote, the boy crisis's primary cause is dad deprived boys,
45:18
dad deprivation stems primarily from the lack of father involvement and secondarily from
45:22
devaluing what a father contributes when he is involved, which is wildly important.
45:27
Whether our children become financially rich or poor, or emotionally rich or poor,
45:31
depends increasingly on whether they grow up dad rich or dad poor. And then, you know,
45:36
this isn't a section of the book where you're talking about kind of the three main reasons for
45:39
this, the purpose void, dad deprived boys, and then also the heroic intelligence and how that
45:44
undermines health intelligence. But there's another quote here that might be my favorite
45:47
quote of the entire book, because it's so haunting. And it's this, dads like moms air and water
45:53
are essential to our lives. But we've tried to live without dads. We haven't tried to live
45:59
without moms air or water. I find that to be true into my bones. I find that to be true. But we see
46:06
that you don't have to be like, especially astute observer of society to see that we would never
46:12
denigrate moms or air or water or any of those essential things. But we look at dads as if they're
46:17
just this outbundee filled dumb fee thing that we can just kind of flick off into the ether and
46:22
we don't really need them. The government can be daddy. Okay, as long as the kids are with mom,
46:27
the government can be daddy or no one can be daddy. And it's just fine. But every
46:31
shred of sociological data point to a much, much different outcome for these children. So
46:38
there are a lot of things that you can point to warn that you could basically hang around the neck
46:42
of the boy crisis. But the number one thing you say is dad deprived boys is leading to that. Why?
46:48
Yes, first of all, exactly the case. And I didn't start out with this belief. When I submitted to
46:55
the my publisher for the boy crisis, I had 10 causes of the boy crisis. And each of them were
47:00
going to take approximately an equal amount of space. And I constantly found that the
47:06
other causes were not nearly as important if there was an involved dad. So for example,
47:12
if a boy grew up with an involved dad and an involved mom, and he went to a school that had
47:19
minimal amount of teachers that were males, if you control for the school that has a few male
47:27
teachers with one that has more male teachers, the children do slightly better in the more male
47:31
teacher school. But if the child grew up with only a mom as the primary role model, and it was a boy,
47:40
and the boy went from a mom only home to a female teacher only school and having very few role models
47:49
or role model that he couldn't identify with in the school, those boys did significantly worse.
47:56
And when I say significantly worse, I don't mean just in grades. I do mean on grades and especially
48:03
on reading and writing, but not which are the biggest predictors of the biggest academic predictors
48:09
of success or failure. Post bone gratification is the biggest social predictor of success or
48:16
failure in every other area. But those boys had significant problems. And so I began to see that
48:26
basically that the boy crisis resides where dads do not reside. And so then it became my my next
48:37
goal for the for the boy crisis book was to to say, okay, then exactly what do dads do
48:44
that's different from what moms do that leads to the children doing so much better when they have
48:48
both dads and moms involved. And I started seeing like these differences that I mentioned before,
48:54
like rough housing or teasing. And I know I was thinking, you know, teasing then the child cries
49:00
because the child is teased. That's not good. Well, as it turns out, it is good up to a point.
49:06
And the value of the saying the up to the point is because moms tend to to to err in the direction
49:12
of not teasing a child if the child will cry. And dads sometimes will err in the direction,
49:19
especially if there's a mom around, not minding if the child cries, because the child is learning
49:26
something from being teased. And so it's that's a worthwhile dialogue between mom and dad. What's
49:33
what's too much? What's what's not enough? And what is the value of teasing to begin with? Well,
49:38
almost nobody can explain that. So I started to explain what the value of teasing was in the
49:44
boy crisis book. What's the value of risk-taking? You know, every we talk about there being glass
49:50
ceilings out there, you know, of women rarely being the CEOs of corporations. Well, you know,
49:57
almost all the inventions that we that we have are male inventions that really make it big. Like,
50:04
you know, there are iPhones and everything else. And on the internet, I've mostly been
50:08
invented by males. So what's behind that? Almost all those males who do those inventions and
50:14
start companies and many of them fail, they're all risk-takers. But we don't teach our daughters
50:20
to do risk-taking nearly as well as we should. You know, when it comes to sexuality, for example,
50:27
we always talk about, you know, the STDs or how bad sexuality is, and this way, you could get
50:33
pregnant. This could happen. That could happen. That's a good discussion. But we don't talk about
50:39
the fact that, you know, if there's these fears around sexuality, that girls who are growing up
50:47
need to share the risk-taking involved in that, and the risk-taking and the fear of rejection
50:52
that comes with taking sexual risks, being the one to reach out and ask the boy out, being the one
50:57
to pay for the boy, rather than the boy paying for them, being the one to do the first hand-holding
51:01
of the first kiss. These are all risks of rejection that boys experience. Those risks of rejection
51:07
that boys experience teach boys how to risk rejection in life. It's unfair that we're not
51:14
teaching our daughters to do that equally to share those responsibilities. And so risk-taking
51:19
has some very important prerequisites to be able to take the risks in life to be entrepreneurs.
51:26
And so if we're going to not just say, oh, women aren't entrepreneurs equally to men,
51:31
we've got to, you know, have affirmative action to boost them up and give them more chance.
51:36
One of the ways we can really boost them up is by giving them training to do risk-taking
51:42
when they're young in the area where most fear of rejection, that is in sexuality in the younger
51:50
years when people are petrified of being rejected by the other sex. And see, these are just some of,
51:56
you know, many, many areas that dads are more likely to contribute to the family. And there's
52:04
another major reasons dads should be contributing to the family. It is not fair for women to have
52:10
all the burden of responsibility on their back. Women are overwhelmed when they have,
52:16
when they have the responsibilities of their children versus and the responsibilities of
52:21
producing money. We need dads to step up and share those responsibilities. And that means,
52:28
you know, inspiring, which is something the churches can do, inspiring fathers to be involved and
52:37
getting and understanding from the Boy Crisis book, what dads do that is different from what
52:43
moms do and having the church honor and practice some of those behaviors, having projects for
52:52
fathers to do with children, having fathers participate in the services rather than listen to sermons.
53:00
As I mentioned before, sermons are not ways of drawing men to you. Ask men to give a sermon,
53:08
you'll have them involved, but ask them to listen to a sermon and you'll have them turned off unless
53:16
he wants to run for a political office in the community. And he wants to be respected in the
53:22
community. Then he'll attend the church, but it's often not for him. It's for the respect that he
53:29
needs to have the political office. There's so much good stuff there. And one thing that I think
53:34
that this leads to is, well, we'll make this last question of the day, because I know we're running
53:37
up against time. But it's this idea that in modernity, we don't have rights of passage for young boys
53:44
that, you know, see their way into manhood. With the exception of a few
53:49
sects of religions here and there, there's not really this definition where the community says,
53:54
Hey, now you are a man because of this, this and this, there's no discussion of, Hey, here are the
53:59
things that I see in you that are amazing and what you'll do great as a man. Here's also some things
54:03
that you're going to have to contend with that are part of your personality and your wiring that
54:06
you have to be aware of. But also here are all the responsibilities that we expect of you now,
54:11
not only as a household, but as a greater community and those types of things, we don't see that
54:17
at all. And so what we see, Warren, and obviously, you know this, is that little boys will self-identify
54:23
our self actualizer or self initiate themselves in a manhood. So they get to choose his first time
54:28
I had sex. It was whenever I bought my own vehicle. Oh, it's whenever I moved away to college. Oh,
54:32
it's whenever I turned 18, and they just pick it or whenever I was jumped into the gang or
54:37
whenever I joined Isis, you talk about Isis a lot in your book, like those are the types of things
54:41
that I find very, very concerning, especially for these dads that are the male and in dads
54:46
that are just the set it and forget it, dads. They're not spending a lot of time with their kids.
54:49
They're not helping them develop. But for those beautiful fathers, they're they need some help
54:54
and trying to figure out some things that they can do for their sons to help their sons understand,
54:59
hey, this is where you are now. But if I'm if I'm being honest, I'm surrounded by a bunch of dudes
55:04
that didn't have that. And so they've had to reckon with what manhood is in their own life. I look at
55:09
my own father. His father was taken away from him when he was 13 years old, killed by a drunk driver.
55:13
And so at the same time, he's learning to be a young man. His man is taken away from him. And then
55:19
that's not, you know, a rare occurrence inside the culture that we have because of
55:23
death, divorce and everything else. But talk to me a little bit about about rights of passage,
55:27
because I find that to be an enormous need for our society, for the overall production of our
55:34
young boys and obviously just their overall development. Yes, rights of passage are very
55:39
helpful for boys. However, the real right of passage is cumulative and incremental and every day,
55:48
preparing a boat before, you know, we're cooking dinner. Here's what you can do to help based on
55:54
your age. We're cleaning up after dinner. You know, when I was growing up and we my family moved to
56:01
Switzerland and we went we had we weren't that wealthy, but we had one dinner at a really good
56:06
restaurant with tablecloths. That was unusual for us. And I was so trained to clean the dishes
56:13
off that my dishes off the table when we finished that I started taking the dishes off the table,
56:18
you know, in this really fine restaurant. And my parents got a kick out of that, but that was
56:23
because not of a right of passage, but every day it was a right of passage, learning incrementally,
56:30
the responsibilities that I was expected to do as a boy to was becoming a man. And when there is
56:37
and so so having so one of the things that really is so important, I think in the boy crisis book
56:44
is the is all the things that fathers and mothers working together can do to help create a responsible,
56:53
motivated boy with postponed gratification, a lot of discipline, high expectations that is
57:03
cumulative and changing and being discussed by mom and dad. So there's two super important things.
57:10
One is that incremental training for responsibility in our sons and number two is three things.
57:20
Number two is dad, you must know what you contribute to children's development. And you must communicate
57:29
that with moms because moms can't hear what dads don't say. Moms, you must seek that out. You must
57:36
seek out if you're if you're reading the boy crisis book, really dig into what dads do that's
57:43
different as a rule, sometimes roles are reversed than what you do. And what exactly the value is
57:51
so that and then let dads know the biological father know that now you understand why he is
57:59
needed, please come and help. Let dad know that you know not only that he's needed, but why he is
58:08
needed, men work with specifics. And then and then once you have the father or a stepfather,
58:16
which is not nearly as helpful, but you can do as you can have a stepfather be very good or very
58:22
very minimally helpful. And as to know how to communicate with that dad about the difference
58:30
between your style and his style so that both of you are able to hear each other and do the best
58:36
checks and balance parenting possible. I mentioned you off before the show that I've created a
58:41
I've finally been able to take the couple's communication workshop that I've been doing for 30
58:47
years and and put that online via zoom so that if there's somebody that is a couple that would
58:55
like to have better communication, they're they're welcome to go on the warrenferal.com website,
59:01
my website and go to the couples communication tab and just get a copy of that. And and if you
59:09
if you go through it and it works and it doesn't work for you, just let me know. I'll give you the
59:14
money back. It's not much money, but it's it's really the best thing I've ever done in my life
59:20
is being able to put that couples communication course online so that it will be available to
59:25
couples to to have at a much more reasonable cost. Well, I absolutely appreciate that.
59:30
And we will be having you back on to talk about that because I want to check it out for myself
59:34
because it's always a good thing to focus on your communication with your spouse if that's
59:37
going to be the most important relationship in your life. But we've covered a lot of ground today.
59:41
And again, guys, I cannot recommend the boy crisis enough. We didn't even scratch the surface on
59:45
most of the stuff that was in this book. So I really, really appreciate this book and the work
59:48
that you've done. But that's all for me. Is there anything else you want to get off your chest?
59:51
No, this is just wonderful talking with you. I really love your your spirit and your
59:57
enthusiasm, your straight forwardness, your questions, the fact that you read the book.
1:00:02
And then also your ability to listen. It's really a wonderful combination, Kyle.
1:00:07
Well, if you're going to send me a book and it doesn't have many pictures in it, I guess I have
1:00:11
to read the words. This is kind of how it goes. But Warren Farrell, thank you for coming on
1:00:15
Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. It's been a really, really has been a pleasure.
1:00:19
There you go, guys. I hope you enjoyed my interview with Warren Farrell. I certainly did. But before
1:00:23
I let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost. Add in Daunted Life, our mission is
1:00:27
equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental and physical resilience.
1:00:31
And one just last reminder here, text upper room. Again, we're talking about the upper room in the
1:00:36
King's Council, text upper room to 7274723860 to get your application to schedule a one-on-one
1:00:42
with Riley Meek, who is the founder of the upper room in the King's Council. But the links I've
1:00:46
got for you today, I've got a link to Warren's website. So if you want to get any of his books
1:00:49
or looking to any of the other stuff that he mentioned on the show, that is a great place for
1:00:53
you. And then specifically, I have a got a link to where you can go and buy your own copy of the
1:00:56
boy crisis. All right, guys. Thanks so much for listening to this podcast. We do appreciate it.
1:00:59
Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five-star review.
1:01:03
If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, you shoot me an email to info
1:01:07
at undonton.life. That's i-n-f-o at undonton.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and
1:01:12
check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this
1:01:15
coming your way. Just go to www.undonton.life. And as always, we want to thank the band August
1:01:20
Prince Red for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is
1:01:24
our song "Cutting the Tides," which is off their 10th anniversary re-recording of their album
1:01:28
"Leveler." The links are in the description. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember,
1:01:33
keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience.
1:01:38
Keep seeking the lion of Judah.
1:01:50
We need to make it as a virtue. You will be revived.