0:00
(upbeat music)
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- This is "Undaunted Life" a man's podcast.
0:21
I'm your host Kyle Thompson.
0:23
Let's get into it.
0:24
All right guys, today we've got a special return guest
0:26
to the podcast.
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His name is Warren Farrell.
0:28
So he is an author, political scientist, and activist.
0:30
He has written several books to include
0:32
"The Myth of Male Power" by Men Earn More
0:35
and the main focus of our last discussion
0:37
with him on this podcast was his book, "The Boy Crisis."
0:39
Why our boys are struggling and what we can do about it.
0:42
That is on our 100 books every modern Christian man
0:44
should read list.
0:45
Great interview, that is episode 376 of this podcast.
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He can go back and check that out.
0:49
He's described as the father of the men's movement,
0:51
but he is also an expert at couples communication.
0:54
And the main reason that he's on today's show
0:56
is because he has a new online course called "Roll Mate"
0:59
to "Soul Mate" mastering the art of discipline and of love
1:03
or the art and discipline of love.
1:05
I think I messed up the name there,
1:06
but it's "Roll Mate" to "Soul Mate."
1:08
And the cool thing about this interview
1:10
is I didn't get as much time as I would've liked
1:12
to really dig into all the content beforehand,
1:15
but he's so good at kind of describing what it is.
1:17
What's the reason behind creating this online course?
1:19
But it's essentially an online course
1:21
for couples to take in a weekend
1:23
or in a week or something like that.
1:24
There's seven modules.
1:25
And we describe all the modules,
1:26
whenever we get into the discussion.
1:28
But one of the cool things I did in preparation for this
1:31
is I put a question out there to my audience
1:32
on social media and I said,
1:33
"Look, if you could ask a couples expert
1:36
"or a marriage expert, one question, what would it be?"
1:38
And so I was just flooded with these great responses.
1:41
And so that's really the last half of this entire interview
1:43
is we're getting into like,
1:44
"Hey, what happens if this happens?
1:46
"What happens if that happens?"
1:47
And I don't wanna ruin any of the questions here,
1:49
but there was a very interesting and scientific question
1:51
there towards the very, very end
1:53
that I think will be worth your guys' time.
1:54
So I'm not gonna keep them from you any longer.
1:56
So without further ado, let's get into it.
1:58
- Warren Ferrell, welcome back
2:00
to Undaunted Life of Man's podcast.
2:02
- I'm looking forward to being here with you.
2:04
You always ask such great questions
2:05
and are so thoughtful.
2:07
So I'm really looking forward to it.
2:09
- Well, I love the glowing compliments from the beginning
2:11
because here's the thing.
2:12
The reason why I got you back on
2:14
is because I had to like beg you and plead you like,
2:16
Warren, I know I'm not very good at this,
2:17
but please come back on and talk to my guys.
2:19
They deserve to talk to you or hear from you again
2:21
because they loved our discussion last time
2:24
talking about the boy crisis.
2:25
We've had a lot of amazing feedback on that,
2:28
but you've got something new that you told me about
2:31
off air last time when we talked last year,
2:33
but I think it's gonna be a game changer
2:36
and could be a game changer specifically
2:37
for the guys in my audience.
2:39
It's an online course and I'm just gonna tee you up
2:42
to talk about it, but it's called Roll Mate to Soulmate.
2:46
And it's mastering the art of discipline of love.
2:50
And here's the difference.
2:51
We're all aware of those fluffy books
2:55
that are gonna fix your marriage
2:56
or those marriage conferences that you come
2:59
and hear some good speakers and hear some good ideas,
3:01
but there's no actual tangible.
3:03
Here's what you do.
3:04
Here's if you're feeling distant from your mate,
3:08
here are some ways that you can take that distance away
3:11
by communicating in a way that's better.
3:13
It's beyond knowing your spouse's love language,
3:16
which is very important.
3:18
It's beyond knowing they're Enneagram
3:19
or their personality style.
3:21
It's how do we do this tangibly?
3:23
So let me just kind of tee you up to talk about it.
3:25
Where did the idea for Roll Mate to Soulmate come
3:28
and then maybe give us the 30,000 foot overview
3:30
of what it's like and then we'll start digging in.
3:32
- Sure, I began to take an interest in this
3:34
when I saw that the boy crisis was often time,
3:38
well actually I've been doing this for 30 years,
3:41
but one of the things I've sort of increased my interest
3:45
in this was seeing that the boy crisis
3:48
was often happened as a result of boys being dad deprived.
3:53
And then I looked at that and said,
3:55
well, what was the dad deprivation often?
3:57
What did that stem from?
3:59
And it often stemmed from a divorce.
4:01
And so I said, what do you mean?
4:06
- You're good.
4:07
- You and I were just talking about the throat issues.
4:10
- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, there are.
4:12
And so let's see, and so I started looking at what,
4:16
you know, what did the divorces come from?
4:18
And some people were saying,
4:19
well, we have to make divorce legally more difficult.
4:21
I was saying that's sort of oppressive.
4:23
I'd rather make marriages happier psychologically.
4:27
And so, but what would make marriages happier?
4:29
And I started to, as I interviewed many, many couples
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and worked with couples in couples workshops for 30 years,
4:36
I started seeing that marriages fell apart
4:39
because nobody knew how to handle personal criticism
4:42
without becoming defensive.
4:44
And so each person began to start to say some version of,
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well, if I bring this issue up to my partner,
4:53
she or he will just respond defensively.
4:56
The defensive responses will only lead to
4:58
an escalated argument.
5:00
And the last time I brought something up in all honesty,
5:03
hoping to be, to solve the problem,
5:06
it ended up creating more of a problem.
5:09
So everybody sort of feels like they're walking on eggshells
5:12
and keeps their feelings to themselves.
5:14
And before we know it, nobody feels heard.
5:18
And women are feeling lonely and isolated
5:20
and only able to talk to their women friends.
5:22
Men are feeling lonely and isolated
5:24
and only able to talk to, well, usually nobody,
5:28
or a prostitute.
5:29
And prostitutes that I interviewed said,
5:31
it was more likely that men would be talking
5:33
about their need for, to be understood
5:38
that I started to see that in Japan,
5:40
there were institutions called The Snack,
5:43
where a man who was working hard all day
5:46
didn't have to come home and bother his wife.
5:48
He purchased a snack for about $50 to $100
5:51
and he was paying so much for it
5:54
because the Japanese woman was expected to listen
5:59
to his problems.
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So he wouldn't have to bother his wife with them.
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And he wouldn't have to feel disgraced
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in front of his wife for having problems.
6:08
And so I said, that's not very, that's not optimal.
6:13
But the big thing was how to make happy marriages
6:16
rather than just having boys be more involved
6:20
with their fathers after divorce.
6:22
And so as I began to look at that,
6:24
I started to see that it was the Achilles heel
6:28
of all human beings to handle, to become defensive
6:33
when they were criticized.
6:35
And so I started to say, well, what's that about?
6:37
And I realized that historically and biologically,
6:40
when we heard criticism was a potential enemy.
6:44
So it was functional for survival to get up defenses
6:47
if they're a potential enemy might have made you
6:50
or even better to kill the enemy before the enemy killed you.
6:53
And so that was functional for survival,
6:56
but it was totally dysfunctional for love.
6:59
And so then I began to see how much of a problem
7:02
I was up against, which was if something had evolved
7:06
for millions of years, could I expect to make a change
7:11
and maybe make an evolutionary shift just from a workshop?
7:17
And in a sense, the answer seemed like that would be ridiculous,
7:22
but I did was able to find a way.
7:25
And that was basically to have people temporarily
7:30
before they were criticized, begin to meditate
7:35
into an altered state of consciousness
7:39
in which before they heard their partner's criticism,
7:43
they went through six or seven mindsets,
7:47
mindsets like saying to themselves,
7:49
"If I provide a safe environment
7:52
"for my partner's feelings and fears,
7:55
"she or he will feel safer with me,
7:58
"which will allow them to feel,
7:59
"my partner to feel more loved by me,
8:02
"and a partner who feels more loved by me
8:05
"will feel more love for me."
8:08
So you're beginning to develop an association
8:12
of your partner's criticism
8:15
with the possibility of deepening your love
8:18
rather than feeling like you're being attacked.
8:22
That's just one of six or seven mindsets.
8:25
But I ask couples, I work with couples
8:29
to develop the discipline before they listen to a criticism
8:34
to have a time each week that I call a caring
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and sharing time where their partner
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takes the criticism of the fear
8:42
or the feeling that they have.
8:44
And they talk about,
8:47
and they first get into a very centered place
8:52
where they're developing an association
8:55
of the potential criticism with an opportunity
8:58
to be more deeply loved.
9:01
And of course, if you know that you're gonna be
9:03
more deeply loved, you don't need to become defensive.
9:06
You can become receptive.
9:08
You don't need to sort of tighten up.
9:10
You can sort of really relax
9:12
because you know that was coming next
9:14
as a deeper amount of love between the two of you.
9:17
I'm gonna be doing this with my wife tonight on Valentine's Day.
9:20
And so because it always brings us closer.
9:24
And so after 30 years of both practicing this personally
9:28
and also working on this in my workshops,
9:31
I began to, I did follow up phone calls
9:34
with the couples that took my workshop
9:37
and got all the glitches out
9:40
and was finally able to record an online version
9:45
of the course when Zoom cooperated
9:47
to come into the culture and into the technology.
9:52
And so I put two couples through the course
9:55
from beginning to end.
9:57
I had them ask questions and cross examine me
10:00
and say what didn't didn't work,
10:03
although by this time virtually everything did work.
10:06
And so that's now available.
10:10
So people can go to my warrenfowl.com website
10:13
and go to the couples communication tab
10:15
and get a copy of the seven hour course,
10:20
go through all seven modules and do it with your partner.
10:26
But what I found was that my talking,
10:30
my developing wisdom, what I called soulmate wisdom,
10:34
the name of the course is rolemate to soulmate.
10:36
And so I called the wisdom soulmate wisdom.
10:40
There are 10 of them.
10:41
And as I share the wisdom with people,
10:45
one of the wisdom is the paradox of wisdom,
10:50
which is that when you hear wisdom,
10:53
they are very good for the underlying foundation
10:57
of your relationship.
11:02
And they deepen that type of love.
11:04
But I found that wisdom disappear when criticisms appear.
11:09
And so the workshop had to be based not on me telling people
11:16
or giving people advice or the greatest amount of wisdom
11:20
I've been able to acquire.
11:21
But rather actually doing this experience with your partner
11:26
and it doesn't make any difference
11:29
whether that partner is a heterosexual partner
11:32
or gay or it's couples, even parents and children
11:37
have basically the same challenge
11:43
that they don't feel that they can share criticism
11:46
without being heard effectively.
11:48
And so then I'm taking the course also
11:50
and teaching people once they've taken the course
11:53
how to be able to hear people who disagree with them
11:57
who have not taken the course.
11:59
And so that's sort of like a 36,000 view
12:04
of the rolemate to soulmate course.
12:07
- LinkedIn is pretty amazing
12:09
at helping you grow your small business.
12:11
We cannot make your email response time faster.
12:14
We can help you sell market and hire in one place.
12:18
We cannot help you find space for your three desk drinks.
12:22
Why do you have three?
12:23
And while we can't help you find the perfect volume
12:25
for your presentation video,
12:27
LinkedIn can help you find the perfect audience
12:30
for your business.
12:31
Grow your small business on LinkedIn.
12:34
Learn more at linkedin.com/smallbusiness.
12:37
- Well, I appreciate all that detail.
12:39
And so there are seven modules.
12:41
And so as I've heard you describe it,
12:43
it's 10 to 12 hours worth of content.
12:45
You could do it in a weekend
12:47
or do it one module a day for a week.
12:49
This isn't something that guys,
12:51
if you're doing this again,
12:52
it's in the show notes, go and check it out.
12:54
You can sign up for it.
12:55
This isn't something like,
12:57
okay, you're gonna do one module this month.
12:59
And then when you get around to it next quarter,
13:01
you'll do module two.
13:02
Number one, you'll never get through module seven.
13:04
And you don't create any momentum, right?
13:06
To go from one thing to the next thing,
13:08
you've forgotten everything from the previous module anyway.
13:11
So you wanna do this in a truncated period of time.
13:13
And just indulge me for a second.
13:14
I'm actually gonna read the names
13:16
of each one of these modules and then I have a question.
13:17
So module one, find the gold, rediscovering your partner.
13:21
Module two is introducing or introduction to appreciation
13:25
into hearing criticism without becoming defensive.
13:28
Module three, part one of the deep dive
13:30
into hearing criticism without becoming defensive.
13:33
Part or module four is part two of the deep dive
13:35
into hearing criticism without becoming defensive.
13:37
Module five, from creating a conflict-free zone
13:41
to avoiding the four depleters of love.
13:44
Module six, solving problems that require more than empathy
13:47
and a lone power.
13:48
And then module seven, the three A's,
13:51
appreciations, ask, and apologies plus psychological a keto.
13:56
Okay, so here's the thing with all those.
13:58
There's gonna be one of those modules
14:01
that is gonna trip up the guys that are in my audience.
14:03
So you're talking to, you know, kind of a rough crowd.
14:06
You're talking to guys that, you know,
14:08
maybe aren't the most empathetic guys.
14:09
Some of the questions I was submitted for this interview today
14:12
have been really, really hilarious.
14:14
But what is gonna be that one that really,
14:17
maybe trips the guy up, you know,
14:18
the module he needs to be aware of
14:20
before he gets going into it?
14:21
- So one of the things I found is that men are about
14:25
as comfortable as a rule in a workshop on relationships
14:28
as women are in a football field.
14:30
It's what we're doing.
14:32
And so, and one of the reasons is that most therapists
14:36
will listen to both the men and the women,
14:38
but therapists are selected for people who are sort of
14:41
feeling, touchy-feely type of people.
14:44
And they're drawn to that occupation,
14:46
their nurture or protector types of things.
14:48
And so they tend to identify more
14:50
with the female than the male.
14:51
And so oftentimes the female will feel very enhanced
14:56
and supported by the therapist.
15:00
And the man will go away, you know, feeling like he's,
15:04
he now has two people against one.
15:06
And so this, and so, and what happens with men
15:11
when they do this couple's communication workshop
15:13
is that it doesn't really make any difference
15:16
what I, Warren Farrell, feel about your issues.
15:21
It is your wife or your partner, your same sex partner,
15:26
it's her or his job to hear completely what you are saying
15:32
and to not interrupt it, to be able to,
15:36
but more importantly, to feel emotionally
15:41
like when you express your opinion
15:45
that she is going to feel
15:47
by providing a safe environment for it,
15:50
she's gonna feel more loved
15:52
as opposed to feeling what we normally feel
15:55
is that when I hear my husband or boyfriend's opinion,
15:59
that that's, and it's a criticism of me.
16:03
I've gotta start defending myself because I'm afraid
16:06
that I'm gonna be abandoned or deserted or criticized
16:08
or just put down and it doesn't feel good.
16:11
So I'm gonna battle against having to feel worse
16:15
than I already do by his criticism and as a result,
16:19
then she comes back.
16:20
So his criticism generates a criticism of him
16:25
and then she withdraws emotionally
16:28
or in other types of ways or sexually
16:31
and he says to himself,
16:32
"Well, that really got me nowhere except that it got me
16:37
"into a much worse place than I was before."
16:39
So just let's avoid it.
16:43
So this role made to soulmate workshop is designed
16:48
to get around that problem by guaranteeing
16:52
that everybody will feel safe when they're being criticized
16:56
and then the guarantee is doubled by the person
16:59
who is hearing the criticism making themselves safe.
17:04
You're not safe unless your partner is safe.
17:09
So that's the first big issue.
17:12
I opened the workshop with teaching both couples
17:16
how to do what I call pan for gold,
17:20
pan for their partner's gold.
17:22
The gold rush was not the people who succeeded in it
17:25
were not people that focused on the stones
17:27
and all the non-gold.
17:29
There were people who focused on being able
17:31
to have a really keen eye for what were the hints of gold,
17:36
where the gold could be found.
17:38
And so my training involves training you
17:42
to see what your partner is doing right.
17:46
And then once you're trained to find that,
17:50
to train to be very specific about it.
17:53
So for example, let's say,
17:55
you bought your partner begonias for Valentine's Day.
18:00
And so I would be working with your partner
18:05
to sort of think about those begonias now.
18:08
Is that something that you like?
18:10
Is that one of your favorite flowers?
18:11
And if it is, to say, thank you,
18:14
not only for getting me begonias,
18:15
but also knowing that they're my favorite flower.
18:19
Well, what was the type of flowers that he got you?
18:21
Did he get you potted begonias?
18:23
And do you, does he know that you like potted begonias?
18:27
Because, or do you think he might know
18:29
that you like potted begonias better than not potted begonias
18:32
because you feel that you like to have something around
18:37
for a while rather than have it bloom and die?
18:40
And so if you think that that might be a possibility,
18:43
you appreciate that he got potted begonias
18:45
rather than just begonias as a whole.
18:48
If it did he get, do you have a good morning sun?
18:52
And maybe he knew that begonias flourished
18:55
in good morning sun.
18:56
Or, you know, he says, you know, instead of saying,
18:59
you say to him, you know, thanks for cooking that dinner.
19:03
Do you say thanks for cooking that dinner?
19:05
Or I teach the art and the discipline of being specific.
19:10
Thanks for cooking the turkey.
19:13
Thanks for making the turkey skin crisp.
19:16
How do you know about making that turkey skin crisps?
19:19
That the dressing was so moist,
19:22
sometimes the dressing is very dry,
19:24
but this was really wonderful moist dressing.
19:28
What's in that dressing?
19:29
It seems like there was spice beautifully.
19:32
It was at parsley, sage, rosemary, thyme, whatever.
19:35
You have to get over the Simon and Garfunkel part.
19:39
You go into other dimensions of what was specific
19:44
that you liked about that.
19:46
And so your partner, when you learn to both pan for gold
19:51
that is fine, what you appreciate,
19:53
and then you learn to be specific about the appreciations,
19:57
it leaves your partner feeling seen.
19:59
So remember I said that the subtitle of "Roll Made to Soul,
20:03
Made as a Chorus" is the art and the discipline.
20:07
So the art is doing things like being specific,
20:10
but the discipline is also doing things like being specific
20:13
because it's easy to think of something in general,
20:16
like, oh, you're a really great cook.
20:18
And it's much harder to discipline yourself
20:21
to think of exactly what there is that was great
20:24
about that, what you prepared.
20:26
And then the other part of the discipline
20:28
is setting aside a night a week to do this.
20:31
My wife and I do this usually on a better Wednesday night
20:34
and sometimes we get sloppy and do it Thursday or Friday.
20:37
And we always have dinner together with candlelight
20:42
whenever I'm in town or she's in town.
20:45
And so at dinner we will share usually three appreciations each.
20:50
And we try to be specific about it,
20:56
but we're still working on getting better and better at that.
20:59
And so it's a never ending process
21:03
of deepening your art and discipline of being specific.
21:07
And so that's where, so the wonderful thing about starting
21:12
with the art and discipline of being able to appreciate each other
21:17
is that both the woman and the man are really coming
21:21
into the course of being able to work on the tougher job
21:25
of what I call the caring and sharing appreciation time
21:28
of hearing your partner's criticism.
21:31
It creates a really beautiful framework
21:35
and a soft cushion to land the rest of the course on.
21:39
- When I think one of the first things that you mentioned
21:42
when you were describing the course is the defensive posture
21:45
and obviously that comes through
21:46
in a lot of these different modules.
21:47
But the sense I get is that if you are panning for gold,
21:50
if you're mining for gold,
21:51
you're gonna find more information that is useful to you
21:55
to keep yourself from becoming defensive.
21:58
Because if you don't know their motivations,
22:00
whatever they say, you're gonna be like,
22:02
well, what's that supposed to mean?
22:03
Well, if you're listening
22:05
and if you're an astute observer
22:07
of what they're trying to communicate to you,
22:09
if you know them even at a deeper, more intimate level,
22:12
then it's gonna keep you from having,
22:14
and you may be right,
22:15
you may be right that they are trying to get at you
22:17
with some sort of like underhanded comment or question,
22:20
but you're gonna give them more of the benefit of the doubt,
22:22
which is gonna cause that defensiveness
22:24
to come down a little bit.
22:25
So if you're crazy Irish like me or something like that,
22:28
you're not gonna be as ready to fight,
22:29
you're not gonna be as ready to go in there and get after it.
22:31
Now, Warren, in preparation for this particular interview,
22:34
I knew I wasn't gonna have a whole lot of time
22:36
to engage with the content or rolemate to soulmate,
22:40
but I knew that the guys in my audience,
22:42
I was like, hey, if you could talk to a marriage expert
22:44
or a marriage communication expert,
22:46
what's the one question that you would ask them?
22:48
And I was flooded with a bunch of great questions.
22:52
And so if it's all right with you,
22:53
I wanna kind of shift gears to maybe some Q&A
22:55
and all of these could almost take their own podcast
22:59
to really, really dig into the details,
23:01
but I got a bunch of questions that I'd like to get into
23:03
if that's good with you.
23:04
You good with digging in with Q&A for the fans?
23:07
- There's nothing I enjoy more than responding to
23:10
sincerely developed questions.
23:12
- Okay, sounds good.
23:13
Well, this first one's from an anonymous person,
23:15
so they must not be that sincere
23:16
'cause they didn't wanna give up their name,
23:18
but it's like, okay, what if you and your spouse
23:21
are growing and improving at different rates
23:24
or potentially in different directions?
23:27
And so hard to really know the context here,
23:29
but if I were to read something into it,
23:30
it's like, okay, maybe they're getting better at,
23:33
you know, learning or intellect
23:35
and maybe you're getting better at business
23:37
or maybe they're getting in shape faster than you are
23:39
and maybe that's not really your focus right now.
23:41
So you're growing and improving at different rates,
23:44
but also potentially growing and improving
23:46
in different things like, what do you do there?
23:48
Is that okay?
23:49
Is that healthy?
23:50
How do you make sure you don't grow apart?
23:51
I guess would be what they're asking.
23:52
- Yes.
23:53
And so the answer to that is you want a safe space
23:57
for you to be able to say exactly that to your partner.
24:01
And so before you do share that though,
24:06
normally speaking, when people hear something like that,
24:08
they sort of hear, oh my goodness,
24:09
is he talking about a possible divorce?
24:12
Is he, you know, and all the fears come up
24:15
and then if that's the case, should I get a lawyer?
24:18
And so she's thinking that while you're talking that
24:22
and that's exactly what you're afraid of
24:23
that makes you afraid to bring that up to begin with.
24:25
And so the first thing to do is to work on the care,
24:30
the caring and sharing process that I've developed
24:33
where your partner is totally seeing
24:38
that creating that safe space for whatever your view
24:42
of the world is, that's what she or he wants
24:47
to create a safe space for.
24:51
And the most important thing is that after your partner
24:56
says what she heard, let's say it's a she, heard you say.
25:00
And then and ask you whether they've distorted anything
25:05
and if they've missed anything or if they,
25:07
and you've asked them if they wish to add anything
25:10
when they've said everything that they need to say
25:13
and you've not distorted it and you've not missed anything
25:18
and asked if they wanted to add anything,
25:23
then your partner has fully heard you
25:29
then you listen to your partner's response.
25:32
And one of the things that I work with
25:33
is making sure that you have no expectation
25:36
that your partner's view of the world,
25:38
that is because your partner heard you perfectly,
25:42
does not mean she or he will have a view of the world
25:45
about that issue that is like yours.
25:48
And so your job will be to maybe hear
25:52
that your partner feels like you're not growing apart at all
25:56
or you're growing apart and they've been worried about it
25:59
for years or they're growing apart
26:02
and you're growing in a way that your partner feels
26:04
is not where she or he is at in life and in the world.
26:09
And even though you can both understand
26:13
why you're growing apart, that is sad.
26:18
And maybe this needs to end in a divorce.
26:21
Well, maybe you don't feel it should end in a divorce,
26:24
but my experience is that when people feel heard
26:29
and seen and their story is completely understood
26:34
by their partner, even if it's a very different story
26:37
that they don't agree with,
26:41
they feel really much more comfortable about that.
26:45
They find some way of doing another thing
26:48
that I train people to do in the workshop
26:52
is that once you feel like your partner
26:54
is compassionate and understanding you,
26:57
you're much more willing to develop win-win concrete decisions
27:02
that allow you to both work with what
27:04
your different ways of going are.
27:07
And we see this with, you see this so often
27:14
with somebody might be wanting to,
27:16
it's totally, like for example, at night,
27:20
I am made into relaxation, put into a relaxation state
27:25
by going deep into some type of experience
27:30
where I learn about what the universe is about
27:32
or some introduce to some intellectual topic
27:36
that I know very little about.
27:38
And that really stimulates me
27:39
and I feel really good about that.
27:41
My wife needs to watch something that is a story,
27:46
that particularly if it's a female hero,
27:50
that makes her feel inspired.
27:53
And that just allows her to immerse herself
27:57
in that and go to sleep more easily.
27:59
So we work out a way of making that happen
28:01
for both of us in a win-win set away.
28:04
But it's so much easier to work out those win-win ways
28:08
when you're feeling good and understood about each other.
28:13
You know, maybe one night we watch it her way,
28:15
one night we watch it ours, one night she takes a bath
28:19
and reads a book that gives her a wonderful story.
28:23
Well, I watch one of my Anova type of shows.
28:27
And so that's, you know, we work out those types of things.
28:32
But if we think that the other one
28:34
is basically moving away from us or making us wrong,
28:39
those positive win-win situations do not work out.
28:44
- Okay, very good.
28:45
I appreciate getting into that detail.
28:47
The next one here is from a fan named Eric, and it's this,
28:50
how do spouses lovingly encourage each other to be better
28:54
without stoking defensiveness and ultimately rejection
28:57
of the advice?
28:59
So this is kind of the defensiveness
29:00
that we were talking about earlier,
29:02
and it really relates to the last question as well.
29:04
Like, you know, obviously there's the other person
29:06
in their relationship may be very, very sensitive
29:08
to any type of negative stimuli of any kind.
29:11
And so how do you lovingly do that without just getting
29:15
like a rubber stamp rejection right from the beginning?
29:18
- Right, that is, it is not any of these things.
29:20
The last question in this question,
29:22
those are not biologically natural things to want to hear,
29:27
because the moment your partner says something,
29:30
like, you know, you're encouraging them to do better,
29:33
advice is, so there's a gap between the critic
29:38
and the criticizer.
29:39
The person who's sharing something like advice
29:43
never sees themselves as criticizing.
29:46
They see themselves as giving good advice.
29:49
The best intent of which is to make the relationship
29:52
closer, better, more powerful.
29:55
But the person hearing that advice hears any people hearing
30:00
almost any recommendation of the part of their partner
30:05
for any change in behavior or attitude experiences it
30:10
as criticism, and it creates inside of that person
30:14
a greater distance.
30:16
That is why, before you hear your partner's suggestion,
30:21
you don't say to yourself, oh, this is really a good suggestion
30:27
which will make my partner better,
30:30
'cause your partner's going to experience it as criticism.
30:32
So before your partner hears your suggestion,
30:36
she or he has to meditate into an altered state
30:42
where, as I mentioned before about where they're saying
30:45
to themselves some version of if I provide a safe environment
30:50
from my partner giving any description of a situation
30:55
that he or she wants.
30:57
My partner in that safe environment will feel safer
31:02
and therefore will feel more loved,
31:04
I will feel more love for him or her
31:06
because I feel safe to be able to say whatever I have to say.
31:10
I don't have to worry about it being too angry.
31:14
I don't have to worry about it being distorted.
31:16
I don't have to worry about it being inaccurate.
31:20
My partner's job will be, by the time I speak,
31:24
just to provide a safe space for my story of the moment.
31:28
Once your, I say of the moment with emphasis
31:32
because once your story is shared,
31:36
you don't always agree with what you said.
31:40
You might be really angry at your partner
31:42
which might indicate a desire to be with somebody else
31:46
or just to go off and take a trip by yourself
31:50
or see your family and not be with your partner
31:52
or have more free time or independent time.
31:57
But by the time your partner feels heard,
32:00
their intimacy feels greater.
32:02
Everybody wants more intimacy.
32:05
So the conclusion after they've told you they want
32:08
more time away from you and you've heard them,
32:12
they no longer want more time away from you.
32:14
That is the magic of leaving somebody so fully heard
32:20
and that you are working, you might say,
32:24
okay, so what I heard you say was this.
32:26
And your partner says, well, actually,
32:29
a little bit sort of like that but a little bit different.
32:32
And then your partner clarifies what she or he was trying
32:36
to really say.
32:37
And you go, well, no, no, I, that's what I said.
32:40
That's what I meant.
32:41
- Right. - No, what I work with you to do
32:44
is to not say that's what I said, that's what I meant.
32:48
But rather to continue working on saying what you feel
32:53
your partner said until your partner says,
32:55
that's exactly what I said, you got it.
32:59
You never say to your partner, I understand I got it.
33:03
I understand I got it is a polite way of saying shut up.
33:08
Your partner is the person to tell you she or he feels understood.
33:13
You don't tell your partner you understand.
33:16
And so your partner hears that you do from what you,
33:20
from what your interpretation is,
33:22
that she or he feels completely understood.
33:25
And so it's that type of process.
33:27
So the, what, what, all the questions here are not,
33:32
I can give you substantive answers
33:35
as to what's often happening.
33:37
But the solution is in knowing how to hear your partner's version
33:42
of what is happening and not have your partner's version
33:48
happen to be the version that Dr. Farrell says
33:52
is probably most likely to happen.
33:54
- Yeah, it's funny.
33:55
When you said the phrase fully heard,
33:58
I've heard myself do that here recently, just random.
34:01
Like I've been in these, you know, conflict arguments,
34:03
not with my spouse, but with other people.
34:05
So before I respond, I will even ask them,
34:07
do you feel as if you've had a sufficient
34:10
and ample opportunity to tell me everything you want to tell me?
34:13
Like, is there any detail that you wish you would have said,
34:16
but before I ask you any questions,
34:18
just to kind of like, hey, are, you know,
34:19
maybe you looked at my non-verbals and saw that,
34:21
maybe I was tuning out and like, you know,
34:23
it's just like, hey, I want you to feel as if you've been heard,
34:26
but again, I haven't done that with my spouse.
34:27
So that's really interesting to kind of think of it
34:29
in that paradigm.
34:31
So I will say, Warren, whenever I read this next question,
34:33
I immediately laughed out loud at how simple it was.
34:36
But then also, I just feel this guy's pain.
34:38
But JMac asked, why is just calm down, not working?
34:43
So obviously this is a guy that has told his wife
34:46
from time to time, hey, just calm down and shock of all shocks.
34:49
That almost never works.
34:50
It actually tends to send your spouse
34:51
in the opposite direction.
34:53
So why is the good advice of just calm down,
34:55
not always received very well?
34:57
- It's almost never received well.
34:59
- Yeah.
35:00
Basically you saying to your partner, you are doing something wrong.
35:08
You are at, and so your partner feels like she or he,
35:14
let's say she, is not only not being heard,
35:20
but so inside of your partner is a whole bunch of feelings
35:25
and fears that is making them not calm.
35:30
Your job is to provide a safe environment
35:34
for those feelings and fears to be expressed.
35:38
And when the expression of those are finished
35:43
and you say, you don't say what you were saying before
35:47
about is there anything else you want to say?
35:49
That's very good.
35:50
But the first thing you say is, so sweetie,
35:53
what I hear you saying is, and by the way,
35:56
you don't do this without doing the meditation first,
36:01
because it's not biologically natural to be able to hear
36:04
your partner's upsets, especially if it involves
36:07
a complaint about you, without altering your natural defensive
36:13
state first.
36:14
And so when she's really all excited, the thing to say or do
36:20
is meditate into an altered state.
36:23
And that's what I teach you to do in the role
36:26
made to soulmate course.
36:27
And you both go through this together
36:29
so you know how to do this and you're both
36:31
on the same track of doing this.
36:33
But the first thing you would say in that after you've heard
36:37
your partner's perspective is, so what is this accurate?
36:41
What I'm hearing you saying is this.
36:44
And then everything that's made your partner upset
36:47
that she shared with you, you say to them,
36:51
you say what you heard them say, and then you say,
36:55
is there anything about that that I distorted?
36:58
And then when your partner says, well, yeah,
37:01
you distorted this, you don't say, no, I didn't distort that.
37:03
You don't argue with that.
37:05
You come back and you keep working on it until your partner
37:07
says, no, you got it exactly.
37:10
And then you ask your partner, did I miss anything
37:12
that you said, because you may have not
37:15
distorted anything, but you may have missed an important point.
37:18
And then you go through that same process
37:20
when your partner says, yes, I think you missed this.
37:22
You don't say to your partner, well, I actually said that.
37:27
No, you keep working on it until your partner says, great,
37:30
that's exactly right.
37:32
You didn't distort it and you didn't miss it.
37:33
And then you ask your partner, is there anything
37:36
new that you'd like to add?
37:37
Because if you don't ask that, then your partner often
37:40
feels like, I have to get everything out in one shot.
37:45
Once your partner knows you're going to be asking,
37:48
do you want to add anything, they don't feel the pressure
37:50
to have to say everything that they're thinking
37:53
and keep mumbling on until they stumble on everything.
37:57
And so then your partner, you will see--
38:05
will not only calm down, but the more upset they are--
38:10
here's the really important point--
38:12
the more upset they are, the greater the opportunity
38:16
for you to provide a safe environment by listening to them.
38:20
And the more relieved they will be that when I'm upset,
38:25
no matter how upset, that even if I'm swearing,
38:30
that my partner will move into a place where he will hear me,
38:34
and that creates such extraordinary safety,
38:38
not only for the woman, but for the man who oftentimes
38:42
learns to repress feelings rather than express feelings,
38:45
and then oftentimes explodes in a volcano that's
38:50
something that he regrets.
38:52
That's a good-- your answer to that is a good reminder for me.
38:55
I'm the get-to-the-point guy.
38:56
When I'm usually talking with other guys,
38:58
it's like, look, I get the marbles out of your mouth
39:00
and just tell me what you need to tell me so that I can move on.
39:03
And sometimes I will take that into my communication
39:05
relationship with my wife in shock of all shocks.
39:07
She's not super appreciative of that way of doing that.
39:10
It's like she wants to take her time,
39:12
and she likes to chew on what she's about to say
39:14
just for a second or two before she says it,
39:16
whereas I'm like, stream of consciousness,
39:17
I'm going to start talking now.
39:18
And so it's like one of those things to just remember
39:21
to slow yourself down.
39:22
Now, I found this next question.
39:23
It's a very simple question, but I
39:25
thought it was very interesting.
39:26
This is a question from Sean.
39:28
What makes a husband worth submitting to?
39:31
And so obviously, the majority of our audience
39:33
is a Christian audience and a conservative audience.
39:35
So we're talking about the heterosexual dynamic,
39:37
obviously, of communication.
39:38
And under the Judeo-Christian ethic,
39:40
there is this complementarian view that both men
39:44
and women are equal in the eyes of God,
39:46
but they've been given different roles.
39:47
And one of the roles that a man has been given
39:49
is headship over his household.
39:50
And the biblical dictate to the woman
39:53
is to submit to the leadership of her husband.
39:55
Now, sometimes your husband's a Jack Wagon,
39:57
and it's going to be really, really hard to submit
39:59
to that person.
40:00
But let's talk about the ideal.
40:02
Since there's plenty of brokenness in a post Genesis 3 world.
40:05
Let's talk about the ideal.
40:07
For the ideal husband, what is that husband like
40:11
to make him very easy to submit to and worth submitting to?
40:16
He is somebody that you know you're always safe with,
40:21
that you can say and be who you want and need to be,
40:26
and he'll be there for you.
40:29
That's the ultimate protection.
40:31
And when women feel protected and loved in that way,
40:36
they are very submission becomes something
40:41
they desire to do, not something they're
40:44
doing out of obligation or out of role.
40:47
And this is so important, this question
40:49
and what your Christian audience, highly Christian
40:53
audience is asking, that I asked a minister who I really
40:56
felt was wonderful to take my entire couples
41:00
role made to soulmate chorus and tie it into scripture
41:04
to create a Christian version of it.
41:06
So if you go on to my couples website,
41:09
mywarandchild.com website, and you go to the couples
41:12
communication course, and if you're Christian
41:15
in your orientation, get the Christian version of it, which
41:18
takes scripture and says, here's what God says,
41:22
here's what Jesus says is ideal, and then
41:27
shows how the chorus is actually teaching you
41:29
and your partner to do what the scripture says is ideal.
41:34
So it's basically turning the scriptural advice and guidance
41:43
into your actual life.
41:46
Excellent.
41:46
Well, I'll make sure all that's in the show notes, guys,
41:48
so that you can easily find that.
41:50
Another question that was interesting, Warren, was this one.
41:53
And I guess all of us are looking at things like, OK,
41:57
let's say I screwed up all this advice.
41:59
Warren, you're so smart.
42:00
If I just did what you told me to do,
42:01
my life would be so much better.
42:02
But here I am being an idiot again.
42:04
And now you're after the disagreement.
42:06
So you've had your kerf level.
42:08
You've had your hubbub.
42:09
All the things went poorly.
42:10
And here's the question.
42:12
How can you have a better quote after the disagreement
42:15
unquote conversation?
42:17
So the disagreement has happened.
42:18
The conflict has happened, but you can't just go silent.
42:21
Obviously, I know you addressed this in your course
42:23
because you can even see from the titles.
42:25
But as opposed to just going inward
42:27
and only talking to yourself and only having
42:29
an internal dialogue, how do you dialogue with the person
42:31
that you were just at their throat a second ago?
42:34
Yes.
42:35
Well, if you are 100% apologetic, then you
42:42
can do it pretty much anytime.
42:44
And apology is very easily experienced
42:48
by anyone in a positive way.
42:51
And women know that it takes a lot of--
42:55
and men know that it takes a lot of courage to apologize.
43:00
And so that's an easy one if what you'd
43:05
want to do as an apology.
43:07
If you want, rather, though, to--
43:10
you don't feel your point was heard.
43:12
That's part of what made you angry.
43:13
That's what made the kerf level so damaging.
43:19
Then you want to go through a whole series of other processes.
43:23
First, your goal is to have a safe environment for you
43:28
to be able to hear your partner and your partner to hear you.
43:31
If you've had a dispute, it's almost 100% guaranteed
43:35
that your partner has not felt completely heard,
43:38
probably interrupted, argued with, and so on.
43:40
So you want to get to that place.
43:43
But while you're getting to that place,
43:45
one of the things that you do in the caring and sharing
43:49
in the workshop is something called the caring and sharing
43:51
time.
43:52
And so the discipline and art of communicating well of love
43:58
is to be able to set aside each week a time to do
44:03
this caring and sharing time.
44:04
So you and your partner have just had
44:06
this stressful sort of argument.
44:09
But you have, on the calendar, a time when, let's say,
44:13
it's Sunday morning or Sunday afternoon,
44:17
you come back from church and you have a time set aside
44:21
where the two of you will both be able to hear each other
44:26
and to deepen your love and to share whatever you were doing,
44:33
your perspective and hear your partner's perspective.
44:36
However, what do you do in the meantime?
44:38
And so part of the couple's communication course,
44:40
the role might disobe a course, is
44:43
do a whole series of things that you can do in the meantime.
44:47
First of all, you can move the caring and sharing time.
44:49
But before you do that, I teach you how to journal.
44:54
And so, for example, there's four steps to the journaling.
44:57
Step one is to write down 100% why you are right
45:02
and why your partner is wrong.
45:05
That's what I call the self-righteous stage.
45:07
That's what I say, yeah.
45:09
And then, step two is, well, just one thing
45:13
that your partner said that maybe you could have acknowledged
45:17
or that you, now that you're calmed down,
45:20
that you hear your partner has a good point there.
45:23
The number three is as much as you can possibly imagine
45:28
that your partner says that you can agree with
45:31
or at least see a portion of correctness in it
45:34
or a value to it.
45:36
And then the fourth is to write it
45:38
as if you were your partner completely empathetic
45:41
with your partner's perspective.
45:43
And so, that's one of six tools to maintain
45:48
what I call a conflict-free zone, 166 hours a week.
45:53
And so, the way that I ask you in the role-made
45:59
to soul-made course is to divvy up your week into two parts.
46:03
Part one is 166 hours of conflict-free time.
46:07
And part two is a caring and sharing time where you
46:11
and your partner are hearing each other completely and fully.
46:14
But in the meantime, I work with you to do
46:17
a lot of other things, praying and asking God for guidance
46:22
and for direction and for inner peace.
46:27
Doing things like something that is very people
46:30
and everything will come out of my mouth,
46:32
which is a fake it 'til you make it.
46:34
I tend to be very genuine in my orientation.
46:38
Faking it can be value.
46:39
So for example, you go out and you buy your partner flowers
46:44
and even though you're upset with your partner,
46:47
you've just had an argument.
46:49
But in the process of buying your partner flowers,
46:51
you in your mind anticipate your partner feeling touched
46:55
that you brought her or him flowers.
46:58
And so that anticipation of your partner feeling touched
47:02
or grateful or relieved makes you start feeling
47:06
less anxiety yourself.
47:08
And so your own anger calms down and anticipation
47:12
of your partner feeling loved.
47:16
Another example of how to maintain the conflict-free zone
47:20
is I get you and your partner to choose the music
47:25
that you feel is most romantic for you
47:28
that makes you always feel more loving to your partner
47:31
and to put that into your Spotify
47:33
or whatever type of music arrangement you have.
47:37
And then also the music that makes you feel
47:39
most upbeat and energized.
47:41
Sometimes just dancing with your partner
47:43
in a really upbeat way or dancing by yourself
47:45
in a upbeat way makes you feel really,
47:48
it changes the energy, it shifts the energy.
47:53
So those are some of the ways that I work with couples
47:58
to maintain a conflict-free zone
48:01
while they're waiting for, while they're visualizing a time
48:04
when their partner will hear them
48:06
as opposed to figuring out a better argument
48:09
you can give to your partner and slip in at some point,
48:12
which will only reinforce the escalation of the argument
48:17
and therefore the problem and the decrease in love.
48:20
- Okay, very good.
48:21
Well, hey, we've covered a lot of ground
48:23
and I know you got to go here in just a second,
48:25
but I tend to like to end my interview
48:27
with the best, most earth-shattering question
48:31
that I could possibly come up with.
48:32
And I wasn't even able to do it this time,
48:34
it was Brian Sumner.
48:35
So last question of the day, we really need your expertise.
48:38
Which way does the toilet paper go?
48:41
- So, you know, some people like, you know,
48:43
you got the husband likes to pull from the top,
48:44
maybe the wife likes to pull from the bottom,
48:46
but I know that creates a lot of consternation
48:48
and issues and marriages.
48:49
So which way in your clinical experience,
48:51
which way does the toilet paper go?
48:53
- Well, this is a good example
48:55
of that there is a technically accurate answer
48:57
and that accurate answer is completely without need to know
49:08
because it ignores what you need to know,
49:11
which is most people would risk their lives to die
49:16
to save their partner's life.
49:22
And yet they would argue
49:23
which way the toilet paper goes.
49:24
And so what you really want to know
49:29
is what pleases your partner?
49:31
What makes her happy, him happy?
49:34
And if your partner wants the toilet paper from the top,
49:38
you might share that you prefer it from the bottom,
49:41
coming out from the bottom,
49:43
you might share that toilet paper designers.
49:48
I mean, if you know, here's where if you know a lot,
49:52
you can get in trouble.
49:53
So I know that when the toilet paper was invented,
49:57
the patent required suggested that it gets pulled from the top
50:02
is that so do I make that argument?
50:06
Or do I hear that, do I hear that?
50:09
Do I hear that the most important quote argument
50:12
is not an argument, but rather hearing what your partner,
50:16
who you would probably risk your life to die for,
50:18
with how she or he would like the toilet paper.
50:23
And so you might, this doesn't mean
50:26
you have to always do what your partner says,
50:28
but you need to hear that that makes your partner happier
50:33
for whatever reason.
50:34
And there isn't a, and then you might negotiate
50:39
in the behavior change part with your partner.
50:42
Well, what, you know, you use this bathroom more frequently.
50:45
Why don't we always put toilet paper the way you like it
50:48
in that bathroom?
50:49
I use this bathroom more frequently.
50:51
You create some type of windwind solutions.
50:53
Or January, we have it this way, February, we have it this way.
50:58
And so on.
50:59
And so it's so important to remember
51:02
that the best answer is not the intellectually correct answer.
51:07
The best answer is knowing how to hear
51:09
your partner's desires and needs.
51:11
And that probably most people,
51:14
especially men, will take a will.
51:17
If their partner is about ready to die,
51:21
they would take a risk, a 50% risk of their life
51:25
to save their partner's life,
51:27
even at the possible expense of their own.
51:31
And if you would take, if you would die
51:33
so your partner will live, then maybe it's not too much
51:38
to put the toilet paper the way your part makes your partner happy.
51:43
So Warren, the question or the answer I heard was,
51:46
you pull it from the top or you're a communist.
51:48
So I think if we, if we kind of distill all that down,
51:51
I think that we would get there.
51:52
But Warren, I really appreciate all your wisdom
51:54
and all of your insight on all these questions.
51:56
I'm so happy for you to have this new course out there.
51:58
Again, guys, the name of the course is Rollmate to Soulmate.
52:00
It is in the show notes, but as for now, that's all for me.
52:03
Is there anything else you want to get off your chest?
52:06
- It's been wonderful talking with you as usual.
52:08
And I love your vibrancy, your energy.
52:11
And it's just always, I always feel when I come off
52:15
of talking with you that I feel even more energy myself.
52:18
- Well, very good.
52:19
Warren Ferrell, thank you for coming back
52:20
on Undaunted Life of Man's podcast.
52:22
- Absolutely.
52:23
- All right, there you go, guys.
52:24
Hope you enjoyed the return appearance of Warren Ferrell
52:26
on the show, but before we let you go,
52:27
we are gonna do a quick resilience boost.
52:29
At Undaunted Life, our mission is equiving men
52:31
to push back darkness with content
52:32
that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience.
52:35
So the links I got for you today,
52:36
I've got a link to Warren's website.
52:37
I got a direct link to the Rollmate to Soulmate site.
52:40
So you can check that out.
52:40
I've got a link to his amazing book, The Boy Crisis,
52:43
and a link to his previous appearance here on this show.
52:45
Thank you, guys, for listening to this episode.
52:47
Wherever you're listening to this,
52:48
please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five star
52:50
of you.
52:51
If you want me to come speak live at your event
52:53
or on your podcast, you shoot me an email
52:54
to info@andontin.life.
52:56
That's i-n-f-o @andontin.life.
52:59
Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook
53:00
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53:02
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53:03
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53:04
Just go to www.andontin.life, and as always,
53:08
we want to thank the band, August Burns Red,
53:09
for allowing us to use their music for our content.
53:12
The music on this podcast is our song "Cutting the Tides,"
53:14
which is off their 10th anniversary
53:15
re-recording of their album Leveler.
53:17
The links are in the description.
53:19
I'm your host, Kyle Thompson.
53:21
Remember, keep pushing back darkness,
53:24
keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience,
53:27
and keep seeking the Lion of Judah.
53:29
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53:57
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