0:00
Are your ad campaigns lighting up the dashboard, but not the pipeline?
0:04
That's bullspend, and marketers are calling it out in dashboard confessions.
0:09
My boss asked for results, so I opened my dashboard for the only positive-sounding metric I had.
0:15
Impression.
0:16
Cut the bullspend.
0:18
See revenue, not just reach.
0:19
Linkedin delivers the highest return on ad spend of major ad networks.
0:23
Advertise on Linkedin.
0:24
Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a $250 credit.
0:27
Go to linkedin.com/campaign, turn to auditions apply.
0:30
Struggling with weight loss?
0:31
Prolon's five-day fasting mimicking diet is a clinically developed nutrition program
0:35
designed to promote fat loss while protecting lean body mass.
0:39
Developed at USC's Longevity Institute, it assists the body in entering a fasting-like
0:43
state that helps reset metabolism and target visceral fat.
0:47
In just five days, Prolon offers a science-backed approach to weight loss without extreme restriction
0:52
or guesswork.
0:53
Get 15% off plus a $40 bonus gift when you subscribe at prolonlife.com/now.
1:19
This is Daunted Life of Man's Podcast, I'm your host Kyle Thompson.
1:23
Let's get into it.
1:25
Alright guys, we've got a special interview for you today.
1:27
Do I look extra happy?
1:30
Do I look joyful?
1:31
Do I look like I'm glowing?
1:32
Because I should.
1:33
Because we got one of the hardest guests for me to try and secure for this show.
1:39
We finally got him.
1:40
And that's Vodie Bockham.
1:42
Yes, the Vodie Bockham talked about him a ton on this show, talked about him a bunch
1:46
on social media, shared a bunch of his videos.
1:49
We've got him on the interview for today.
1:50
If you don't know who he is, he is a reformed pastor, author, church planner, and sought-after
1:55
speaker.
1:56
He's also the Dean of Theology at African Christian University in Yousaka, Zambia.
2:00
He received his MDiv from Southern or Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary and his demon
2:05
from South Eastern Baptist Theological Seminary and did his postgraduate study at Oxford University.
2:10
He's also written a bunch of very, very incredibly important books such as fault lines.
2:15
A lot of you guys have read about that.
2:16
That's the social justice movement, evangelicalism, looming catastrophe, and also family shepherds,
2:23
which I've talked about a lot on the show, calling the equipping of or calling and equipping
2:27
men to lead their homes.
2:29
And it's just a fantastic book that Ryan who's been on the forging table that he gave to
2:33
me.
2:34
And that was like, I had read some Vodie's other stuff, but I hadn't quite read that yet.
2:37
So it's just an absolute integral book.
2:39
But then today on this particular interview, we talk about his latest book, which is a
2:43
rerelease of his first book, so that's the ever loving truth.
2:46
Can faith survive in a post Christian culture?
2:49
And so let me, let me talk a little bit about why I wanted him on and then we will get into
2:54
what we talked about in the interview.
2:55
So I kind of have a Mount Rushmore that I haven't really voiced out loud of people that
2:59
I've wanted to get on my show and Vodie's one of those people.
3:02
I think the way that he speaks into culture and the way that he preaches the gospel is
3:07
incredibly, incredibly unique.
3:09
He's of course written some very important books like family shepherds and fall lines
3:12
and different things like that.
3:14
But I've just been very, very attracted to the way that he's approached the ministry
3:18
and evangelicalism and a lot of things and I've just admired him from afar.
3:22
And to be honest with you, I think the first time we tried to secure an interview with
3:26
him was three years ago, if not four years ago.
3:28
And I've just kind of like as time has progressed, kind of tried this, tried that to try to secure
3:32
the interview, but we finally got it done and I'm so happy to bring him to you today.
3:36
So the scaffolding for our conversation is essentially the ever loving truth, the brand
3:41
new book.
3:42
I'm gonna ask him a little bit about jujitsu there at the beginning and kind of what it's
3:44
like being a pastor in Africa versus being a pastor in America.
3:49
But when we get into the ever loving truth, we talk about how truth in and of itself is
3:53
under attack in our culture, how there's this lean towards religious relativism and tolerance,
3:59
so-called tolerance, philosophical pluralism, actually pluralism comes up in the discussion
4:04
a bunch today and it makes sense because that's where we are in this postmodern moment.
4:09
But then we also get into how Christians need to draw a line in the sand at some point,
4:12
say, wait a minute, I'm, I'm not going to worry about people saying I'm a Christian
4:16
nationalist.
4:17
I'm not going to worry about people saying, Hey, you should stay out of the culture wars.
4:20
There's a certain point where you need to stand up for the cause of Christ.
4:23
He talks about how we must preach and share the gospel into culture and I actually ask
4:27
him to give a gospel presentation.
4:29
So he gives me an idea of like, depending on the context, this is what I would say and
4:32
this is how I would present it, how as Christians, we shouldn't believe that we're guaranteed
4:37
to not suffer, that we should know that suffering is coming for us for the sake and the cause
4:41
of Christ.
4:42
And then also, you know, you know, what do we, what do we do in terms of Americans, whatever
4:47
we feel like, you know, our pastors, our mega church pastors or our pastors that have basically
4:51
sold out to the culture are going that direction, like what do we do as people that are just
4:56
in the pews trying to live a good life.
4:58
But we do also get into this, this move or this thought that, you know, anti intellectualism
5:03
is actually good with an American Christianity, but also how that holds intention, the liberal
5:08
state of some of the seminaries and kind of the, the vacillation between the two, we get
5:12
into tokenism, we get into ethnic Gnosticism.
5:15
There's a big phrase for you today.
5:16
Then at the very end, I ask him about the state of biblical manhood specifically in the church.
5:21
And there's a whole lot more stuff that we got into, but guys, I could not have been
5:24
more thrilled that we got this interview secured and how it went.
5:28
And we're going to work on getting him back on early next year, because we didn't even
5:32
touch fault lines or family shepherds and in this interview at all.
5:37
And we just barely scratched the surface on biblical manhood.
5:40
So we're going to try to get him back on to, to make sure that we can hit all those different
5:43
subject matters.
5:44
So all of you can be happy and satisfied.
5:46
But guys, I've belabored it enough here in my introduction, but without further ado,
5:50
let's get into it.
5:51
Vodie Bockum, we finally made it happen.
5:53
Welcome to on Daunton life of man's podcast.
5:56
Oh, thank you.
5:57
It's good to be here.
5:58
Now you didn't know I told you off here, but we've been working to try to get you on
6:01
here for years.
6:02
Hey, we're just another interview on your Docker for today, but we're going to try to
6:05
blow your socks off with our amazing questions and energy today.
6:08
But the very first question I got to ask you is about you, Jitsu, because I saw a picture
6:14
of you in a gear while back and I saw like this Facebook group, like it was the, what
6:19
was it?
6:20
The BJJ club of Zambia or something like that.
6:22
And you're one of several pastors that I know that that trains you, Jitsu.
6:26
So I know that Joby Martin down in Florida, where you're at right now trains Matt Chandler
6:30
down in Texas.
6:32
There's a lot of prominent pastors that are getting into Jitsu.
6:35
So why, why are you into it?
6:37
Like this seems like something you shouldn't pick up as a hobby later in life.
6:40
You know what I mean?
6:42
Yeah.
6:43
And it's interesting to see that happening now.
6:45
I mean, I've been in it since 2012.
6:48
So it seems like it's been growing lately among pastors and other people.
6:53
But for me, it was something that I got into with my oldest son, you know, we homeschool
6:59
our kids and my oldest son was finally finished.
7:03
I spent the last four years traveling with him full time because I became his full time
7:09
teacher, you know, when we got to high school.
7:12
And then when he was done, I missed him.
7:14
And so we started looking for things that we could do together.
7:17
And he was interested in martial arts and I didn't really like, you know, the martial
7:21
arts stuff and especially all the world and you stuff and everything else.
7:25
And so then we found Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and I was like a duck who found water, man.
7:32
And I just, I loved it.
7:33
I love the fact that it wasn't connected to all the other spiritual issues.
7:38
I love the fact that, you know, whereas other martial arts are really based on, you know,
7:44
strength and power and hitting somebody as hard as you can or kicking somebody as hard
7:48
as you can.
7:49
Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, it's known as the gentle art, it's about some doing an opponent with
7:54
the minimum force necessary.
7:57
It is incredibly skills based.
7:59
So I love the fact that when I started, I couldn't handle most guys.
8:04
Yeah, that's right.
8:05
It all is bigger and stronger, you know, I can handle most guys.
8:09
So the biblical idea of gentleness, the biblical idea of masculinity, there was so much about
8:16
it.
8:17
It was incredibly attractive, the idea of discipleship, man, I just, I was done, you know, I loved
8:24
it ever since.
8:25
Well, that's the interesting thing about it is because it's typically the football players,
8:29
the former football players that come in and they're like, look, I'm big and strong.
8:33
Who are these little guys, these nerds?
8:35
And then it's just like, wait a minute, like I'm way more helpless than I ever could have
8:39
possibly imagined, but you're absolutely right.
8:41
I've matured so much.
8:44
And even in my faith, my resilience has grown because it's like, okay, trying to figure
8:48
out what this particular scripture means is not nearly as hard as getting mauled by a
8:52
16 year old, because we have a 16 year old and our gym who's like, his record's like 250
8:57
and 70.
8:59
Like he's a professional already and he's 16 and it's just like, you can't have an ego
9:03
anymore if you're going to train jujitsu.
9:06
And so, you know, since I got my purple belt now, it's like, okay, we've got to, we've got
9:09
to elevate everything and get it going.
9:11
So that's awesome that you got into that.
9:13
Now, one quick thing before we get into the brand new book is, as a lot of people know
9:17
right now, you served as a pastor in America for a very long time.
9:21
And that was until 2015, when you decided to move to Zambia, Africa.
9:26
And there's a lot of reasons for that.
9:27
I'm not necessarily wanting to get into, you know, the history of that.
9:31
I want to know what the differences are because I've been see, I live in Oklahoma.
9:36
So I've been marinated in this Christianese kind of country music theology my entire life,
9:41
just because you were born on this red clay, you're a Christian, but then the comparison
9:46
for you living in Texas and South Central LA and other places in America, but then going
9:51
to Zambia for all of us ignorant Americans, what are the differences between how Christianity
9:56
is viewed in those two places, America and Africa?
9:59
Well, in Zambia in particular, Zambia is a constitutionally Christian republic.
10:06
So Christianity is the official religion of the nation written into the Constitution.
10:12
So whatever it is that you experience in the Bible Belt with people believing that they're
10:17
Christian because they're born in Oklahoma, Texas, whatever, ramped up several times when
10:26
you have people who are born in a nation that has in the preamble of its Constitution that
10:31
this is a Christian republic.
10:33
So in that regard, it's very much like being in Texas.
10:38
You know, Zambia is the size of, about the same size of Texas and it's got half the population.
10:45
So it's really interesting in that regard.
10:48
There's a lot of very theological emphasis there.
10:56
The charismatic movement is huge because of the way that it sort of conflates with African
11:03
traditional religion and African traditional worldview.
11:06
So that's a much bigger issue there than I ever, you know, I did confront in the US.
11:13
But other than that, it's similar to a lot of ways.
11:16
So one thing that I've heard about folks in Africa, people that have done mission work
11:19
in Africa is that people in Africa accept miracles way more, I guess, tacitly than Americans
11:27
do because in America, we're all very skeptical.
11:29
And I have to see it to believe in those types of things.
11:32
But because of a lot of the cultural norms in Africa, the miracles of the New Testament,
11:37
they're just like, yeah, that makes sense that somebody could do that.
11:39
Is that true?
11:40
Is that kind of a good assumption about, you know, people in Africa in terms of how they
11:44
view that?
11:45
Yeah, I'm always hesitant, you know, when we talk about people in Africa because it's
11:50
a huge continent, 55 countries on the continent, you know, and in the North, you've got Muslims
11:57
and whatnot and then Sub-Saharan, you know, you have a lot of animism.
12:03
But you know, in general, because of the influence of animism, there is much more, that people
12:14
are just much more ready to accept the supernatural.
12:17
It's like that in all animistic cultures, you know, their worldview is really open to
12:26
the supernatural.
12:27
I mean, they live with, you know, going to witch doctors so that they can get witch doctors
12:32
to perform supernatural things for them.
12:38
And so it's just much more of a normal part of life.
12:42
So because of that, you're right.
12:45
There's a lot less resistance to the supernatural aspects of the message of the gospel.
12:50
Gotcha.
12:51
Well, we'll get more into the American church here in a second, but we need to dig into
12:54
your brand new book, which guys, if you're listening to this now, it is the ever-loving
12:58
truth.
12:59
So this is in the show notes.
13:00
You should pick it up.
13:01
The ever-loving truth can't faith thrive in a post-Christian church.
13:04
And spoiler alert, the answer is yes, but you give us a couple of hundred pages basically
13:08
it's like a post-Christian culture.
13:11
Correct.
13:12
Thank you very much for that correction.
13:13
And so post-Christian culture, that is where we live.
13:16
That is what we're steeped in right now.
13:17
But yes, there is something that we can do and there are a lot of things that we can
13:21
do as Christians to make sure that we can push people towards the ever-loving truth.
13:25
And the first sentence of the book, Vodie, is truth is under attack in our culture.
13:29
So just give us the 30,000 foot overview.
13:32
Why did you write this book?
13:33
Why now?
13:34
Why the fully revised and updated version?
13:36
And then we'll actually dig into the content.
13:38
Yeah.
13:39
So like you said, this is the revised and updated version of my first book.
13:44
So it's just about 20 years ago when I first wrote the ever-loving truth.
13:50
And one of the reasons that we did revision in an update is because on the one hand, many
13:57
of the things I was talking about then have just sort of blown up and manifested in ways
14:03
that were expected and some even worse than were expected.
14:07
And of course, there's a lot of new stuff on the horizon, but all of it coming from the
14:12
same roots and the same foundation.
14:15
And all of it as a result of the fact that in America, we are living in a post-Christian
14:20
culture.
14:21
We're living in a culture that was evangelized and thoroughly evangelized, a culture that
14:26
was a byproduct of the Reformation, a culture that has its roots and foundations in Reformation
14:33
thinking, Reformation theology, Reformation ideology.
14:36
The culture that now has completely not only rejected and turned its back on that ideology,
14:43
but has gone to war against that ideology.
14:46
Right.
14:47
We're seeing the fruit of what happens when a culture does that.
14:52
Of course, if we look across the pond and we look at Europe, we see what that looks like
14:57
even further down the road as Christianity is very hard to find now in Europe.
15:05
And Europe has almost completely paganized.
15:08
In the United States, we're seeing much of that, but several years behind.
15:13
We are behind because in America, if you only look at America, it's like, okay, whatever's
15:17
happening in California doesn't stay in California, it'll typically spread.
15:20
But if you widen it out to the wider West, it's Europe and then it kind of devolves to
15:25
Canada and then Canada kind of flushes it down here to America as the way that it seems like
15:29
it goes.
15:30
But in the book, and guys, we're barely going to be scratching the surface today.
15:33
So get the book so you can really dig into these, but you describe how the quote unquote
15:37
truth wars are being fought and how these there are these common cultural belief systems.
15:42
And there's three that you name where you talk about religious relativism.
15:46
So that's, you know, all religions are essentially the same.
15:49
And then you have tolerance as the ultimate virtue.
15:53
And then the third is philosophical pluralism and there's no absolute truth, postmodernism.
15:58
But I want to focus on the second one, tolerance is the ultimate virtue.
16:02
And what's funny about it is as soon as I read the headline in my margins, I wrote the
16:06
11th commandment and then like a paragraph later, you talk about the 11th commandment,
16:11
which is thou shalt be nice.
16:12
So I want to read this quote from the book here, tolerance once meant putting up with
16:16
someone or something in spite of the fact that one did not like or agree with the person
16:20
or idea.
16:21
Today, however, tolerance demands that we not only put up with, but even embrace and celebrate
16:29
the views and practices of others.
16:31
Furthermore, the new tolerance demands that we value others, views and practices to the
16:36
degree that we value our own.
16:39
So we live in a culture now where, yes, Christians and conservatives and conservative Christians
16:44
alike, thou shalt be nice.
16:46
Hey, I'm going to go alone to get along.
16:48
Hey, let's do pronoun hospitality.
16:50
Okay.
16:51
I know that you're not a man, but I'm going to use this male name and these male pronouns.
16:55
I'm going to lie so as to not potentially offend you and your sensibilities.
17:02
And that is pervaded every type of culture.
17:05
We're just seeing a little bit of pushback with conservatism with Christians, but talk
17:10
to me more about how this idea of tolerance, capital T tolerance has really degraded a lot
17:16
of the foundations of what we're supposed to be as Christians, but also Westerners.
17:20
Yeah.
17:21
I mean, the irony of course is that genuine tolerance actually loses its meaning because
17:30
genuine tolerance is meaningful within the context of a culture where you believe that
17:36
there's absolute truth, where you believe that there's right and wrong, where you believe
17:41
that there needs to be debate, right?
17:45
So that we are actually dealing with one another and tolerating one another in a meaningful
17:52
way, but this new tolerance puts us in a situation where we have to abandon all ideas of truth,
18:01
which means we have to abandon actually the foundations upon which genuine tolerance is
18:08
built.
18:09
So because we've made a commitment to tolerance while basically cutting off our nose to spite
18:17
our face, what we end up with is a world that becomes completely intolerant, completely
18:24
power and authority oriented, where we use the power generally of the state to force other
18:32
people to agree with us, which is not tolerance at all.
18:37
And the thing is, is if you have to force them to do it, there is no genuineness to it in
18:43
the same applies for Christians in the church to where they're saying things that, like I
18:47
said, they know these things aren't true, but they're saying them because they want to
18:51
go along to get along.
18:53
And I think a lot of people now are drawing a line in the sand.
18:56
And again, guys, I'm basically skipping over section one of the book and the, you know,
19:00
we're giving it short shrift because there's so much here to discuss.
19:03
But section two of your book is called drawing a line in the sand.
19:07
And it's, it's really a call to Christians.
19:10
It's a call to arms in a way, but not in the way that people are going to clip this out
19:13
later.
19:14
So I want to read this quote here from that section.
19:16
While I am not suggesting that Christians take up arms in a literal way against our
19:21
post-Christian culture, I am suggesting that it is time to draw our own line in the sand.
19:27
We need to make a decision.
19:28
We will stay behind the line, letting the battle against religious relativism, tolerance
19:32
and pluralism overtake us, or we will step over it standing up for the cause of Christ.
19:38
So as I've said a lot, Vodie is people, Hey, that man, I whoever wrote that really did
19:44
a fantastic job.
19:45
But here's, here's the thing, Vodie is Christians and conservatives have let people kind of push
19:50
them up against the wall and push a little more.
19:52
And then they get to a point where it's like, don't push me anymore.
19:54
See, you won't like me when I get angry, but they never get angry.
19:58
There's never a hill we're dying on.
20:00
They're not going to die on the hill of protecting the unborn.
20:03
They're not going to die on the hill of not generally mutilating children.
20:07
They just can't find something that's worth a fight.
20:10
And one day they will wake up, Vodie.
20:11
They will realize that the war has passed them by.
20:14
They never put on their helmet.
20:16
They never put on their breastplate and they certainly never grabbed their sword.
20:19
And then they're going to be looking around wondering what happened.
20:21
It's like you, you are what happened.
20:23
So talk to me a little bit more about this line and the sand that we need to draw.
20:27
Yeah, it's not going to be.
20:29
People are there now.
20:32
All the things that we're facing in this culture now, people are already there.
20:36
And I need to back up a little bit and say that this book is based on an exposition of
20:41
Acts 4.
20:44
And what I'm doing is I'm walking through, you know, Peter and John, they're experienced
20:51
they're in Acts 4 when they, you know, heal the man at the beautiful gate and then end
20:56
up before the Sanhedrin.
20:58
And I'm showing this parallel of what they experienced in a pre-Christian culture and
21:04
how it parallels with what we experienced and a post-Christian culture.
21:08
And one of the things that I point to is that neutrality is not an option.
21:14
Right.
21:15
Neutrality wasn't an option in the pre-Christian culture, right?
21:20
These guys, you know, it wasn't, hey, you guys go on, do your Christianity thing for a number
21:26
of reasons they couldn't allow that.
21:29
And the same thing is true today.
21:32
Our culture cannot be neutral to us.
21:35
And the reason that it can't is because what it demands of us is antithetical to biblical
21:42
Christianity.
21:43
What it demands of us is to not be Christian and to not believe what Christians believe.
21:49
Our culture demands that we reject creation.
21:53
Our culture demands that we reject the male/female binary.
21:57
Our culture demands that we reject the decalogue, right, and biblical morality, biblical law.
22:04
Our culture demands that we reject, you know, any claims to Christ as, you know, unique
22:11
and any claims to Christ as essential.
22:14
Our culture demands that we give those things up because to hold to those things disqualifies
22:20
us in a culture that, you know, basically exalts these principles that we've been talking
22:27
about.
22:28
So because of that, they can't be neutral.
22:30
They won't be neutral.
22:31
Hey, guys.
22:32
Real quick.
22:33
If you were anything like me, you don't like paying for stuff that you think you're capable
22:35
of doing yourself.
22:36
So a lot of people end up doing that with their IT at their businesses.
22:40
And the problem is, is if you're not an expert at it, you can leave yourself open to attacks.
22:45
So I literally just heard a story about a company that DIY'd their servers and data security
22:50
and that kind of stuff.
22:51
And they got hacked and they had all of their important business files stolen and they ended
22:55
up having to pay the hackers $15,000 and ran some money to get their files back.
23:01
Like seriously, like 15 grand just to be able to run their business.
23:04
So I don't want this to happen to the business owners in my audience.
23:07
And that's why I want to introduce you to my friends at LMS tech.
23:11
So LMS tech is an IT security company that can help your business with all kinds of IT
23:16
headaches.
23:17
Network installation, configuration, security and monitoring, server set up and maintenance,
23:22
cloud data storage, email management and security, antivirus management, industry specific
23:27
compliance.
23:28
So this is like HIPAA financial services, insurance, credit cards, that kind of thing.
23:32
And even custom software implementation like CRM and HR tools.
23:36
So while you focus on making your business successful, let LMS tech secure it.
23:42
I trust LMS tech with the security for my business here at undaunted life.
23:46
So I think you should give them a shot as well.
23:48
So to receive your free IT and data security assessment, visit this website.
23:54
Get security dot tech.
23:56
That's get security dot tech.
23:58
Don't risk your data ending up in the wrong hands.
24:00
Invite the experts in to protect your business again.
24:03
The site is get security dot tech.
24:06
That's get security dot tech to get your free assessment.
24:09
The links to all of that will be in the show notes as well.
24:12
And they've got the labels ready made, big it, small minded, like conservative as and
24:18
they're using that as almost like a curse word type of a thing, but you're absolutely
24:22
right.
24:23
It's we're shaking hands with the devil thinking we're making nice with culture.
24:26
And it's like, look, culture is going to chew you up and spit you out and not even think
24:30
twice about it.
24:31
And most Christians are just like, Oh my gosh, I'm just trying to be nice.
24:34
And one thing that you talk about in the book and you're very fervent about it, which
24:37
is no surprise because you're a preacher is you talk about the fact that we as Christians
24:41
must preach.
24:43
It is not an option.
24:44
We must preach.
24:46
And the thing is is how we share the gospel though, is we've almost been taught to share
24:52
it in a way where it needs help.
24:53
You actually have a small quote in the book where it says, for some reason, we have bought
24:56
into the idea that the gospel needs help.
24:58
And I'm reminded of something that you said, I don't remember when, but you were talking
25:01
about, you know, how father was walking a son through a strawberry patch and he's eating
25:06
strawberries and he gets the taste of the real thing.
25:08
But then he started feeding his son, the artificial version, pop tarts and soda and all the stuff.
25:13
So much so that he got used to the artificial that when he went back to the strawberry patch,
25:17
the real strawberries weren't sweet enough.
25:20
So what is it about how we've been taught or inculcated into this ideology where we think
25:26
the gospel in and of itself isn't good enough?
25:28
Maybe we need to soften it or sweeten it or do something to alter it in some way.
25:32
Yeah, you know, in 2 Timothy chapter 4, Paul basically gives this call to Timothy to preach
25:40
the word and to be ready in season and out of season, rebuke, reprove, exhort with great
25:47
patience and instruction.
25:48
And he says, because the time is coming when men will not endure sound teaching.
25:54
But instead though, run off into myths, right?
25:58
And they're gathered teachers among themselves, right, who tickle their ears.
26:03
I mean, this is why.
26:06
And if you look at that carefully, what Paul is warning Timothy of is the temptation to
26:14
shave off the edges of the gospel because we want people to like us, because we want people
26:22
to like Jesus.
26:23
And whenever the culture tells us in no uncertain terms, we don't like this about Jesus.
26:31
We don't like this about Christianity.
26:33
If we're not careful, our tendency is to then try to present the gospel in a way that we
26:39
downplay the things that the culture has told us that they don't like.
26:45
But what the culture is telling us that they don't like is the essence of the gospel itself.
26:52
And so if we go shaving off here and shaving off there and eventually our gospel is no gospel
26:58
at all.
26:59
And so now what people are doing is basically, here's how we share the gospel.
27:03
Listen, your life right now is probably at a four or five on the happiness meter.
27:10
If you come to Jesus, I can get you up to seven, eight, nine, right?
27:15
And basically, that's the way we share the gospel.
27:19
We don't talk to people about sin.
27:21
You know, we don't talk to people about judgment.
27:23
We don't talk to people about penal substitutionary atonement, you know, Christ dying for sin.
27:29
We don't talk about that because our culture has told us that it doesn't like that.
27:34
It doesn't appreciate that.
27:35
And even worse, it's offended by that.
27:39
And therefore, because we want people to like us and we want people to like Jesus.
27:43
We shave off those parts of the gospel, which means our gospel is no longer a gospel at
27:47
all.
27:48
And in modernity, we love competing in the offense Olympics.
27:51
And it's like, Oh, who can be the most offended?
27:53
This is going to give you the most unearned moral superiority.
27:56
I want to skip actually now because we're talking about the gospel.
27:59
I want to skip to section three, and then I want to bounce back to section two.
28:02
But in section three, you have a section header called what shall we say?
28:06
And simply, why should we trust the Bible in its modern form?
28:11
Is it truly the word of God?
28:12
And you know, we get into all the objections, but what I want is from you, because you've
28:17
done this a million times to the listeners out there right now that are fervently wanting
28:21
to share the gospel, but they don't know how to, right?
28:25
Give us a gospel presentation in its full-throatedness that we could put into our own words to share
28:31
with the lost people that are around us.
28:34
Yeah, I always like to get to the kind of meta narrative, and it's sort of what Paul
28:39
uses on Mars Hill, right, and I like it because it's very easy for us to remember.
28:47
There's four things for us to remember, creation, fall, redemption, consummation, right?
28:53
There is a God who created the world, and you just impersonalize this, right?
28:58
But creation, there's a God who created the world, right?
29:03
He is God, fall, man fell into sin.
29:09
The man that God created in his image, in his likeness, rebelled against God and fell
29:14
into sin.
29:15
And because of that, there is judgment.
29:19
His holy and righteous God will judge us, must judge us.
29:24
Redemption, God sent his son and the person of the Lord Jesus Christ in order to pay the
29:31
price that we owed for our sin.
29:35
God made him who knew no sin to be sinned for us, and we might become the righteousness
29:39
of God in him, right?
29:41
And then consummation, God has set a day on which he will come and he will judge, therefore
29:48
repent so that you can't experience salvation and not judgment.
29:53
Again, if we can just remember those four things, creation, fall, redemption, consummation,
30:02
then we can show the gospel.
30:05
And the beautiful thing about that, the reason I like sort of giving people that framework
30:09
is because to the degree that you grow in your understanding, and to the degree that
30:15
you have time with people, I mean, you can flesh that out with so much scripture and
30:22
with so much doctrine and with so much theology, or you can very quickly, in a couple of minutes,
30:31
with somebody, you know, the sort of one, two, three, four of the gospel, you know, without
30:36
sort of, you know, watering it down.
30:39
So for me, that's, that's, that's what I like to encourage people.
30:42
That's great.
30:43
I appreciate that.
30:44
And you made the exact point is you have to let how you share the gospel be contextual
30:48
to who you're talking about.
30:50
And you know, if this is a stranger in the airport, it's going to be a different presentation
30:53
than someone you grew up with that you've kind of seen their family and know their struggles.
30:57
And you know, I've taken people through books where it's like for months and months and months,
31:01
we would go through, you know, like the reason for God by Tim Keller.
31:04
People have some people like Tim Keller, some people don't, but that book is really accessible
31:08
for somebody that has no understanding of scripture or anything.
31:11
They haven't even entered into those conversations before.
31:14
And then you could start getting into things that are a little bit weightier and beatier.
31:18
But something that I have seen as well, and it's kind of like this, I don't know, like
31:21
this church camp phenomenon to where it's like, you know, I don't need to preach.
31:26
I'm going to let people witness me by my lifestyle, and I'm going to ask for credit and you address
31:31
that in the book.
31:32
But I think it, I think it goes back to the anesthesia, right?
31:35
That's it.
31:36
That's it.
31:37
I literally wrote that all times and when necessary, use words.
31:41
Yeah.
31:42
So the first person I ever heard, yeah, the first person that I ever heard kind of dragged
31:46
that ideology was Matt Chandler to mention him for a second time.
31:49
But he was like, when has that ever happened in history?
31:53
You know, you mow your lawn with a smile on your face and life gets you down.
31:57
You're like, I'm going to make lemonade out of this situation.
31:59
He's like, that doesn't happen that way.
32:01
So why should we avoid that creep towards?
32:04
It's almost a form of cowardice because it's like, hey, I don't want to have that awkward
32:08
conversation and cross that awkward line with my neighbor.
32:10
I'd rather just give them a thumbs up every time I see him.
32:13
Well, but to see if that goes back to what we talked about before, that's, that's what
32:17
happens when we shave the edges off the gospel, right?
32:20
People don't like the message of the gospel.
32:23
People are repelled by the message of the gospel in that ironic Jesus told us they would
32:28
be, but people are repelled by the message of the gospel.
32:32
So this whole idea of, you know, lifestyle evangelism as it's, as it's called goes back
32:39
to this idea of I've got joy, you know, I've got a piece of happiness, prosperity, you know,
32:49
look at me in the way that I'm on my lawn, look at me and look at my family.
32:53
And here we are.
32:54
We have this wonderful, perfect picture and don't you want that?
32:59
And there's a couple of things wrong with that.
33:02
Number one, there's Mormons out there who are living life that way as well.
33:09
Yeah.
33:10
Absolutely.
33:11
And that's what they're known for.
33:12
Right?
33:13
The second thing is that the gospel and what really separates us as Christians is not what
33:23
the gospel does to us or for us when we're happily mowing our lawns, but what the gospel
33:31
means for us when we're on our deathbed, when we're on in our worst day, right?
33:38
When we failed miserably, you see, that's where the gospel has its bite.
33:45
That's where it has teeth.
33:47
That's where it has meaning, right?
33:49
So the power of the gospel is not, you know, I am in Christ, therefore I can mow my lawn
33:58
happily.
33:59
The gospel is I am in Christ, therefore, when I blow it, when I feel miserably, when I get
34:08
bad news, when it's horrible and when it's awful, that's when I know that in spite of
34:15
that, that I am in Christ and for me to live as Christ to die as gain, right?
34:21
So you know, this whole lifestyle evangelism thing, it misses what is essentially the most
34:27
beautiful aspects of the gospel.
34:29
Absolutely.
34:30
And the thing is, is we're not leaning into the gospel.
34:32
We're kind of leaning away from it, but trying to still have a finger touching it.
34:35
It's kind of like the idea and part of it I think is because we're so terrified of suffering.
34:40
We live in a bubble wrapped world where we don't have to go and track and hunt and kill
34:44
the animal and drag it back to the village.
34:46
We can just go to the store and buy the animal in cellophane already.
34:49
We don't even have to think about the fact that it was once alive, but you talk about
34:52
that in section two to pop back to section two of the book, the joy of suffering in his
34:57
or the joy of sharing in his suffering.
34:59
Okay.
35:00
So I want to read this quote from that section.
35:02
The reason many of us struggle with suffering is that we don't view it from the proper perspective.
35:07
Our culture has painted a picture of suffering that places it outside the arena of Christian
35:11
experience.
35:12
We have somehow brought into the myth that belonging to Christ is the equivalent of purchasing
35:17
a get out of free suffering or get out of suffering free card.
35:21
But this belief is simply not true.
35:23
The Bible paints a picture of suffering that is quite different.
35:26
In fact, the New Testament promises suffering to those who follow Christ.
35:30
Really just yesterday, Vody, I was reading Matthew 10 versus 16 through 25, basically
35:35
say, Hey, this is Jesus saying suffering is guaranteed y'all.
35:38
So gurgid loins get ready.
35:40
It's coming for you.
35:41
And I have these people like I had a friend in my life who lost his job and he started
35:45
questioning whether or not God existed.
35:47
And I was like, buddy, you're doing this while sitting in a house that's air conditioned.
35:53
You've got a cell phone.
35:54
You've got food all over the place.
35:56
You're overweight because you eat too much of it.
35:58
It's like, what are you talking about God doesn't exist because you have a temporary
36:01
blip in your, your, your vocational life.
36:05
But that's where we go.
36:06
It's because we're so non resilient because we try to avoid suffering whether in, if you
36:11
read the New Testament, you don't get this idea that following Christ is going to be
36:14
an easy deal.
36:15
So, so where do we get the idea that it is going to be easy somehow?
36:18
But again, remember what we said, we keep coming back to this, right?
36:22
When we change the gospel that we preach to a gospel of come to Jesus and he will make
36:28
you happy.
36:29
That makes perfect sense.
36:31
It makes perfect sense that a person would he hit a pax like that.
36:35
And all of a sudden start questioning whether or not the gospel is true.
36:40
Why?
36:41
Because the gospel that they believed is inconsistent and incompatible with that because they believe
36:47
the wrong gospel.
36:48
That's the problem.
36:49
It all goes back to, you know, building on the wrong foundation.
36:54
I think you're absolutely right.
36:55
And part of it is because, and again, you, you talk about this in the book as well for
36:59
a 200 page book.
37:00
You sure, you know, squeeze a lot of stuff in there, but you talked about the, the Americanization
37:05
to make up a word maybe of Christianity.
37:08
And there's a short quote in the book where you say much of this capitulation to secular
37:11
cultures demands stems from the fact that over the years, Christianity in America has
37:17
become more American than Christian.
37:20
And so this could, this could get into a discussion about Christian nationalism and all those
37:23
types of things.
37:24
And you do say as well, and I just told someone this yesterday, and here's another quote from
37:28
that section, American Christians have been fortunate.
37:32
We live in one of the few societies in history that has not persecuted the followers of Jesus.
37:38
So those things are absolutely true, but we, we American Christians, we live in this fear
37:43
of people almost finding out that we're going to be a Christian and having to like say the
37:46
word Jesus out loud, like we, we'll say our normal sentence and then we'll drop it when
37:51
we say Jesus and then we'll bring it back just in case, you know, someone over the years
37:54
has set the coffee shop, but it's just, again, it's, it's a, it's a false facsimile of the
38:00
real thing that we've gotten with American Christianity.
38:03
But talk to me a little bit about this new way of fighting against Christianity in America.
38:09
And that's branding people as a Christian nationalist, because again, I think you pointed
38:13
out or other people point out, it's like we're going to be nationalists of some kind.
38:16
So we might as well be Christian nationalists, like if you have any pride in your nation,
38:20
that's used as a bludgeon by which to beat up American Christians now.
38:24
So talk to me a little bit about that struggle.
38:26
Yeah.
38:27
And if you, if you look back at this whole idea that we started with this idea of the
38:33
new tolerance, right?
38:35
And the idea of relativism and pluralism and tolerance, the knock against Christian nationalism.
38:42
And again, it's white Christian nationalism is very important that you put the white on
38:47
there because that's a, that's a, that's a neo-Marxist triple word score, right?
38:52
Right.
38:53
Yeah.
38:54
If the, yeah, you got, you got three oppressor groups there.
38:57
You got white folks, you got Christians and you got nationalists, right?
39:01
So it's a neo-Marxist triple word score.
39:04
And when you live in the midst of an environment that has, you know, tolerance as it's, you
39:13
know, ultimate virtue and when pluralism and relativism are things that you hold in high
39:20
esteem, then all of a sudden the idea that, you know, you would hold to some ideology,
39:30
some firm ideology and the idea that you would believe that there is a foundation upon
39:37
which the culture is built and that we need to hold firmly to that foundation that we've
39:44
been blessed because of that foundation.
39:46
And now all of a sudden that becomes a very unpopular and very unattractive.
39:54
You focus on your physical and mental health, but once the last time you checked in on your
39:58
financial health, many Americans feel financially anxious yet many are doing better than they
40:03
think.
40:04
Fairwinds credit union, we give you a clear snapshot of your finances and a plan to move
40:09
forward with confidence.
40:11
With high yield savings and free checking, we help your money work harder.
40:14
Visit fairwinds.org for more information federally insured by NCUA.
40:22
When you talk about the foundation, and so I'm struck by studying or viewing the way
40:27
that old universities, universities that have been around for a while or seminaries that
40:31
have been around for a while, when you look at their founding documents, when you look
40:35
at the things that are etched into the stone in some of their main corridors and then you
40:39
look at how they operate now and it's like, where did we lose the thread?
40:43
Like what happened again?
40:45
Yeah, America's not going to last forever, but my goodness, I didn't think that the
40:47
foundations would erode so quickly.
40:50
So in the book, you very briefly discuss kind of the liberal state of American seminaries
40:55
because you studied at Oxford, you kind of knew what you were walking into.
40:58
You knew that it wasn't southern seminary, but you were ready for it in a way.
41:02
But then I'm interested in the tension that's between, okay, there's this liberal state
41:08
of America's seminaries and kind of we're looking at things through this kind of neo-Marxist
41:13
lens.
41:14
And then also this shift towards anti-intellectualism in American Christianity, where you have very
41:20
conservative Christians saying, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute.
41:22
I don't need all that data.
41:24
I don't need all that evidence.
41:25
I don't need archaeology.
41:26
I don't need anything.
41:27
I need capital F faith.
41:29
That's what I need.
41:30
And it's like both sides of this coin.
41:32
I think our fruit of the poisonous tree and I don't really know how to guide people between
41:38
like, yeah, let's not go crazy liberal seminary, but also let's not only depend on faith as
41:44
if this evidence is somehow bad or rotten.
41:47
Yeah.
41:48
And it's a great observation because we absolutely are there.
41:52
And I think what we've done is we've put reason and revelation at odds with one another.
41:59
And we were never called to do that.
42:03
So when you look at your worldviews, basically a person's worldview is either the meadow
42:11
narrative, right, that story about why things are the way they are, or you can look at the
42:15
elements of a worldview, what we believe about God, man, truth, knowledge, and ethics.
42:22
And you know, when you look at knowledge, for example, secular humanism, which is, you
42:30
know, what was sort of predominant when I was first writing the book or neo Marxism predominant
42:36
now, they're both atheistic and materialistic.
42:40
And so when you have an atheistic materialistic worldview, the way you know things is only
42:47
through observation, you know, only through reason.
42:50
And what a lot of people do is they go on the other side of that and they say, well,
42:54
that's where they are.
42:55
But where we are is we're on the side of revelation, right?
42:59
Yeah.
43:00
No, no, no, we are, we are reason guided by revelation.
43:07
It's not either or, no, it's, it's not that we, that we don't use our reason.
43:15
It's that we recognize that there is something beyond and superior to our reason, right?
43:23
And, and, and that is the revelation of God.
43:27
God has revealed himself, yes.
43:29
But the God who revealed himself also revealed himself through scripture that, that's reason
43:38
and revelation, right, you know, he didn't just, you know, every individual is going
43:44
to get this sort of, you know, download from above, no, he gives us scripture and he gives
43:52
us scripture in this, you know, wonderful, beautiful historical context.
43:57
And you know, to the degree that we better understand that historical context, we better
44:01
understand that revelation.
44:03
So I think the problem is that we are divorcing reason and revelation and we were never intended
44:07
to do so.
44:09
I think that's absolutely true and if you do that, you, you enable or you keep yourself
44:16
from being able to discern.
44:17
So when you go to the beginning of Matthew seven, which I was looking at yesterday, when
44:21
you're talking about judgment, it's the most often misquoted and misused verse, maybe in
44:24
all of scripture where it says, you know, basically we shouldn't judge it all.
44:27
It's like, that doesn't mean turn your brain off because in that same part of scripture,
44:31
it's talking about trying to differentiate, you know, dogs and swine versus other people.
44:36
And if you can't discern, you can't do that, and it's kind of the same thing.
44:39
There's the, there's a tension between reason and revelation.
44:43
There's also the tension between the sovereignty of God and the free will of man.
44:46
You know, there's a famous version quote that I can't remember about that.
44:49
But wrapped up in all of this voting is a discussion about justice because, and you
44:54
talk about this a lot in fault lines, which is not the point in today's discussion, maybe
44:57
a point of a future discussion.
44:59
But if you were an atheist materialist and you believe that we are highly evolved chimps
45:03
that used to be low of all chimps that used to be fish that used to be goo that used to
45:07
be stardust, nothing ultimately matters.
45:10
Everything's very nihilistic.
45:12
So we have to get our justice here and we have to get it now because there will never
45:17
be ultimate justice where every wrong will be righted.
45:21
So talk to me a little bit about how we as Christians can speak into a culture that sees
45:26
justice as something that can only take place here in our current moment on our current
45:32
planet.
45:33
Yeah, that is part of the problem is that we do not believe in ultimate justice.
45:40
And if you don't believe in ultimate justice, then everything has to be dealt with here
45:44
and now.
45:45
The other problem, of course, is the way that we define justice, right?
45:50
We define justice as equal outcomes, right?
45:54
Not as the right and proper application of the law of God, right?
46:01
God becomes the author of justice in, you know, Christian theism, or God is the author
46:07
of justice in Christian theism.
46:09
So, you know, we're wrong in the philosophy of it and in the application of it, which
46:16
again is why we need to be engaging our culture.
46:22
And I think this is, listen, a lot of this stuff that we talked about, these are problems.
46:29
There are things that are going wrong, there are things that are upside down.
46:33
But when I look at it, I definitely see the glass as half full.
46:38
The reason being is, you know, that the light never shines as bright as it does in the darkness.
46:46
And as things get darker and as it becomes easier and easier to distinguish between those
46:54
who are in Christ and those who are not, the gospel becomes clearer, right?
47:00
And the gospel becomes, you know, more dear to us in the midst of moments like these.
47:06
So I see it as an opportunity.
47:09
When so as things get darker, one thing that we also need is we need warriors.
47:14
We need pastors who are willing to step up and take the slings and arrows of culture to
47:18
protect their flock.
47:19
Because something I've told a lot of people about is like, look, I'm not going to have
47:22
to give an account someday for how I followed my lead pastor at my church.
47:27
He's going to have to give an account for how he shepherded me, though.
47:29
And so the onus is on him.
47:32
And I think that in this modern era of CEO pastors, it's not doing us any favors here
47:38
in America.
47:39
You talk about that a little bit in the book, I'll read the short quote, "In many larger
47:43
churches, the new criteria for pastors are modeled after corporate CEOs instead of the
47:47
descriptions given in Bible passages like 1 Timothy 3, Titus 1, and 1 Peter 5."
47:53
And you see these mega church pastors that have boards of directors.
47:58
They don't have elder boards.
48:00
They are whisked into the church.
48:03
They deliver their TED talk and their Bible verses sprinkled over the top of it so they
48:07
can keep their taxes and status.
48:08
And then they're whisked out of the church.
48:10
There's no, you know, back of the aisle greeting people as they leave.
48:14
There's no ministering to people in the moment after the service.
48:17
And I like to draw a distinction, Vody, and I, you would, you would co-sign this as well.
48:21
There are enormous churches in America that have pastors that operate like they have a
48:27
congregation of 50 people.
48:29
They want to disciple people and they love people.
48:31
Again, a great example for me is Joby Martin down in Florida, an enormous multi-site church.
48:37
And he is focused on discipling the flock and getting people saved and doing it in a way
48:42
that is not leading to more franchises being posted, but spreading out the message of the
48:48
gospel as far and wide as they're capable of doing it.
48:51
But talk to me about this rot of CEO pastors and doing church in a way to where it's like,
48:57
Hey, this is more, it's like deserving of the cover of entrepreneur as a magazine and
49:02
not like a standard biblical idea of how we are to run churches.
49:07
I think that's part of the fruit of God's blessing on the church in America.
49:17
I think the fact that the gospel has been so fruitful.
49:23
The fact that Christianity has been, you know, so welcomed and, you know, that we live in
49:34
this environment where we've been given this free reign where the, not only have we not
49:40
been persecuted, but, you know, our voice has been the loudest, our ideology has been foundational
49:48
and fundamental.
49:50
And because of that, there have been opportunities for wolves to come in among the sheep and scratch
50:00
itching ears, and, you know, again, back to 2 Timothy 4, I'm often asked the question,
50:09
you know, why do you think these churches, these bad churches are so successful?
50:18
It just seems so wrong, man, that these, you know, I mean, if I was God, I'd strike these
50:22
guys dead and I would say, why, why are these things so wrong?
50:25
And my answer is because the Bible is true, that's exactly what you would expect to see
50:32
if Paul's words in 2 Timothy 4 are true, right?
50:38
And so I think that what we're seeing is a validation of God's word and at the same
50:48
time the fulfillment of this, you know, this warning that we've been given.
50:54
So it's kind of a call to arms as well as a reassurance of the veracity of God's word.
51:03
I think you're absolutely right.
51:04
And again, that passage that you keep referring to in 2 Timothy 4 is verses 3 and 4, so the
51:09
time will come when people will not endure sound teaching and having itching ears and
51:13
keeps going from there.
51:14
And that's, that's the guarantee when I read this here recently, earlier this year, it's
51:18
like, ah, that's why Joel Osteen still has a church.
51:21
That makes sense.
51:22
It's because like, I know about the itching ears thing, but whenever you see these ministries
51:26
or these, I guess musical conglomerates as they could be easily described now where there's
51:32
no theology in their words, it's just kind of feel good boyfriend Jesus stuff.
51:36
It's like, it makes sense that they're selling millions of records.
51:39
It just makes sense.
51:40
And it's like, they're judgments coming as well because I forget what part of Matthew,
51:45
but it's like these false teachers and false prophets, they are like trees that will be
51:49
cut down and thrown into the fire.
51:52
It's kind of a crazy guarantee that that's coming.
51:54
So it's like, guys, there come up and says common.
51:57
So don't worry about it.
51:58
One thing I do want to shift to, this is a little bit more of a personal subject matter
52:01
for you, but you bring this up in the ever loving truth is, I guess that this concept
52:06
of tokenism.
52:08
So as the American church as a fourth right, kind of loving empathetic church, there are
52:14
ministries that are doing racial reconciliation wrongly, they're, they're kind of ignoring
52:21
James to and the sin of partiality and things like that.
52:24
But you have a very interesting quote, because again, you just barely mentioned it.
52:27
You don't do a whole section on it, but it's I am, however, increasingly sensing that the
52:31
goal is not saving souls, but presenting a more diverse image to the community.
52:37
And so conservatives loves to point out when Apple does a commercial where they pretend
52:42
their board of directors is a bunch of women of color.
52:45
And in reality, it's just a bunch of old white guys, but it's kind of the same thing that
52:48
you have these churches that will, you know, they'll bring in that, you know, token black
52:53
passer or they'll have that token person on the board and it's like, wait a minute, like
52:56
the point is not the way the picture looks.
52:59
The point is whether or not the gospel being preached is accurate and full-throated.
53:03
And for you, you've talked about this a lot.
53:06
You've, you've talked about it in your books.
53:08
How do you feel about this idea of tokenism because, you know, people all the time, like
53:13
you're, you're the subject matter of Reddit boards, Vodie, whether you know that or not.
53:16
Hey, why do white evangelical reform people love Vodie Bach?
53:20
I'm so much like it's this idea to where it's like, well, because he's awesome, because
53:24
the stuff he says is really great and I can apply it directly to my life and to the spreading
53:28
of the gospel throughout the communities.
53:30
Maybe that's why it has nothing to do with the level of melanin in his, in his skin.
53:33
But hey, I'm getting way off into left field here because I'm getting fired up, but talk
53:37
to me a little bit about tokenism because it absolutely just fires me up and just drives
53:40
me nuts.
53:41
Yeah.
53:42
Talk about pluralism in the book, talk about a couple of types of pluralism, right?
53:49
There's an objective pluralism, you know, the pluralism that says America is a, you know,
53:56
a multi ethnic nation, right, it's just objectively true, but then there's cherished pluralism.
54:05
So we go from America as a multi ethnic nation to America is better because it's a multi ethnic
54:17
nation and churches are better when they're multi ethnic churches.
54:24
So a church that has, you know, more ethnicities is superior to a church that has fewer ethnicities.
54:35
And so, you know, you'll get guys from, you know, Poland, Nebraska, where their town is
54:43
98.7% white and they're beating themselves up because their church is not as multi ethnic
54:52
as, you know, somebody's church in, say, Houston or Dallas or New York or whatever, right?
55:02
Because of this idea of cherished pluralism, this idea that says, you know, if you really
55:06
Christian and if you're really doing what the Lord wants you to do, then your church
55:12
will, I love the way that, you know, your church will reflect heaven, right?
55:17
And in heaven, there's going to be people from every tribe and kindred and tongue and
55:21
nation.
55:22
Well, do you know what's interesting about that?
55:25
It's really easy to talk about that when you're in America because America's multi ethnic.
55:29
I live in Zambia. Zambia is homogeneous, right?
55:35
So you don't have multi ethnic, you don't have any multi ethnic churches in Zambia.
55:40
Everybody's black, right?
55:43
Yeah.
55:44
Because that's Zambia and it's not America.
55:47
So does that mean that the church in Zambia is inherently inferior because it's not multi
55:54
ethnic, you know, I mean, again, it becomes incredibly problematic from the get go.
56:00
But it's a very American problem.
56:04
Yeah, it gets really awkward.
56:06
Yeah, it really does.
56:08
It really does.
56:09
Well, and I mean, I grew up in Oklahoma where the predominant race in Oklahoma is white,
56:13
but the city I grew up in, Lawton is a multi ethnic city because we have a Fort Sill the
56:19
Army base.
56:20
We've got good year there.
56:21
And so there's a lot of different types of folks.
56:22
So I grew up like I saw a picture of my sixth grade class.
56:26
There were probably 20 kids.
56:27
There were probably eight white kids, six black kids, a couple of Asian kids, a couple
56:31
of Native Americans.
56:33
And we didn't look at them as like, Oh, that's my Native American friend.
56:36
It's like, that's Joe.
56:37
I like Joe because he's awesome and he's good at baseball.
56:40
And so it's just like it's only whatever we get older that we get inculcated into these
56:44
ideas of, you know, Oh, well, he's this because of this upbringing and he's this because of
56:49
that or whatever.
56:50
But it really brings into the discussion, something that you talked about before ethnic
56:55
Gnosticism.
56:57
And so you did something I think it was for founders a few years back, we talked about
57:00
ethnic Gnosticism, which seems like a big, you know, difficult phrase to understand.
57:05
But it's basically this belief system that people because of the level of melanin and
57:09
their skin somehow allows them to have a higher understanding as to whether or not something
57:15
can be categorized as racist.
57:17
And so it's this, it's this mystical idea that this person has more knowledge on a particular
57:22
subject just because of how they look in a picture.
57:25
And so talk to me a little bit more because I mean, you did a whole hour on ethnic Gnosticism.
57:29
If I can remember, I'll put it in the show notes.
57:31
But how does ethnic Gnosticism kind of work into really everything that you talked about
57:35
in the ever loving truth?
57:37
Yeah, that's interesting.
57:39
I never, never, never asked that one, but I think when you, when you talk about the idea
57:46
of pluralism, I think you've got to go back to the idea of pluralism.
57:51
When pluralism becomes the be all twin though, when pluralism becomes something, you know,
57:59
that's cherished, inevitably what that means is there is a heightened valuing of minorities,
58:11
right, because again, pluralism by definition means that whatever, you know, the majority
58:18
of something is, we have other things that are not like it, you know, and when we have
58:25
other things that are not like it, and when we're seeking those other things that are
58:29
not like it, we put higher value in those other things that are not like it.
58:34
And I think in the American context, that means, you know, ethnic minorities.
58:40
And I think the idea of ethnic Gnosticism is really sort of the byproduct of us putting
58:47
the value in those things that are not like the majority, and basically seeing them as
58:57
bringing something that makes us superior, that makes us better.
59:03
I mean, it's, it's, it's usually problematic, and so now that's why we have all the discussions
59:09
about lived experience, you know, so on and so forth, yeah, and again, now we're moving
59:17
in the direction where when you have sexual minorities, which is again, an interesting
59:25
turn of phrase, right, sexual minorities, not sexual deviance, but sexual minorities,
59:30
right?
59:31
Yeah.
59:32
And, and now that becomes part of the whole pluralism narrative.
59:38
And so now you have to have, you know, people who are part of the alphabet mafia, having
59:44
their input, you know, but again, once you've decided that these values of, you know, pluralism
59:53
and relativism and tolerance are the foundations upon which you're going to build your culture,
1:00:00
then it's inevitable that we, we end up where we've ended up.
1:00:04
Well, we talk about building culture, and you also mentioned lived experience.
1:00:08
So here's the thing.
1:00:09
If you build your culture on the lived experience of individual people based on what they look
1:00:12
like, that's problematic.
1:00:14
I'm a good example of that.
1:00:15
In terms of my background, I'm Irish, which is pretty easy to see because I have no melanin,
1:00:20
and you know, I have this red beard and I look like I should be clicking my heels together
1:00:24
as I walk, but also I'm Choctaw Indian.
1:00:27
So it's like, wait a minute, my, my Indian relatives and ancestors rather, like we enslaved
1:00:33
people and we were enslaved.
1:00:35
If you want to be depressed, just look at how the Irish were treated by the English and
1:00:40
how they were treated once they came over after the potato famine.
1:00:43
It wasn't a pretty picture.
1:00:44
I can say that I was not really valued.
1:00:46
So someone will look at me as if, hey, you have this unearned superiority because you're
1:00:50
white and it's like, not play it like that's not, that's not how I grew up.
1:00:55
Like this is a very different idea because what you think my life has been like, you think
1:00:59
that I woke up on third base thinking I had a triple.
1:01:02
I woke up with no assumptions about where I would end up on the base pass as it were,
1:01:07
but we're rounding to a close here, Vody.
1:01:09
So this is going to seem like an awkward add on to the end of the interview and it's just
1:01:12
going to have to live that way, but that wraps up our discussion of the ever loving truth.
1:01:16
Guys, that is in the show notes.
1:01:17
Go and check it out.
1:01:18
And it's fun to say the ever loving truth.
1:01:19
So I'm saying love and L U V I in a possibly so ever loving truth, but I want to talk briefly
1:01:26
about manhood because hopefully we can set this up later to have a more deep discussion
1:01:30
where we can dive into family shepherds, a book that I've recommended on the show about
1:01:34
a thousand times.
1:01:35
I think a thread that runs through everything that we've discussed today is the abdication
1:01:40
of manhood by the modern man, whether that is a pastor, that is a feminine, whether that
1:01:46
is a passive leader of the family, you know, that guy that's a spiritual thermometer, not
1:01:51
a spiritual thermostat, but we'll leave it specifically to the church in terms of manhood.
1:01:56
I think that the church has done a [inaudible] poor job of modeling to men and catechizing men
1:02:02
in the ways of biblical manhood.
1:02:04
So now every man just gets to self initiate into their version of what they think masculinity
1:02:09
is.
1:02:10
So chasing women four wheel drive trucks, hunting and eating beef jerky.
1:02:14
All things that are great, but things that don't make you a man.
1:02:17
And then we get to this point where our families falling apart, our wife hates us, our kids
1:02:22
have rejected us.
1:02:23
We're losing our business.
1:02:24
We're under the church and we expect the pastor to model a way out, but he doesn't know how
1:02:28
to even explain biblical masculinity, much less model it.
1:02:32
So to save me from preaching, you go.
1:02:34
Give me your thoughts.
1:02:35
Yeah.
1:02:36
Again, if you go back to this idea of pluralism and the ideas of tolerance and the ideas of
1:02:43
relativism, relativism, especially if you look at it within the context of this neo Marxist
1:02:49
ideology, manhood is oppressive, right?
1:02:55
And because manhood has been defined as oppressive, because it's been defined as toxic.
1:03:04
We've been trying to figure out a way for men to not be masculine while simultaneously
1:03:15
being everything that men have to be in order for society, not to fall apart.
1:03:21
It's not going to work.
1:03:22
It doesn't work.
1:03:24
You know, as we say in Texas, that dog won't hunt, right?
1:03:29
And so, you know, on the one hand, we want for men to not be toxically masculine, but
1:03:38
then whenever some tragedy comes, if a man doesn't stand up, right, and play the man,
1:03:46
then we point the finger at him, you know, because he's weak and because he's failed,
1:03:51
right?
1:03:52
You know, we want men to, again, you can't have it both ways.
1:03:58
And I think that we expose the lie when we point these things out.
1:04:04
For example, you know, anyway, there's a thousand different examples of the way this
1:04:13
sort of manifests itself and works itself out.
1:04:16
But at the end of the day, the world needs men.
1:04:19
At the end of the day, God designed us the way that he designed us, and he did that for
1:04:24
a reason.
1:04:25
There is a huge difference between men and women.
1:04:28
I'm grateful for that huge difference between men and women.
1:04:31
It means that there's a responsibility that's placed on our shoulders.
1:04:35
Our shoulders are broader for a reason.
1:04:37
We're designed to carry more, you know, physically and spiritually and mentally and emotionally.
1:04:43
And the world needs us to do that.
1:04:46
And I think one of the things that people like about the ever loving truth is that it's a
1:04:51
very masculine book.
1:04:55
I don't, I don't shy away from that, I don't apologize for that, I lean into that.
1:05:02
And I hope people enjoy it.
1:05:05
I think that they will.
1:05:07
I think that they certainly will enjoy it and benefit from it.
1:05:10
But dad, Gama, if that didn't sound like a cliffhanger for our next discussion where
1:05:14
we're going to really unpack biblical manhood, have we done enough to prove to you that we
1:05:18
need to have another discussion to go deeper?
1:05:20
Oh, yeah, we do that.
1:05:22
All right, guys.
1:05:23
We made it happen.
1:05:24
But that's all for me.
1:05:25
Is there anything else you want to get off your chest?
1:05:27
No, just, you know, go out, get this book, help put it on those lists that people don't
1:05:34
want it on.
1:05:35
And you know, we'll all smile at that.
1:05:39
We're going to do our best to be disruptors and get this book on those lists.
1:05:42
Vody Bockham, thank you for coming on a Daunce of Life of Man's podcast.
1:05:45
Yeah, it's my pleasure.
1:05:46
Thank you for having me.
1:05:48
There you go, guys.
1:05:49
I hope you enjoyed my time with the one and only Vody Bockham, but before we let you go,
1:05:52
we are going to do a quick resilience boost.
1:05:54
Add on Daunce of Life, our mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that
1:05:57
forges spiritual, mental and physical resilience.
1:06:00
So the links I've got for you today, I've got a link to his website so where you can
1:06:04
check out all the stuff that he's done.
1:06:05
I've got a link to three different books.
1:06:07
So the book that we talked about today, The Ever Love and Truth, but also fault lines and
1:06:10
family shepherds.
1:06:11
And then we mentioned ethnic Gnosticism and that entire speech that he did a few years
1:06:15
back that YouTube video is here in the show notes as well.
1:06:18
Thank you guys so much for listening to this episode.
1:06:20
For ever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate and leave us a positive five
1:06:23
star review.
1:06:24
If you want to come speak live at your event or on your podcast to shoot me an email to
1:06:28
info@undaunton.life, that's i-n-f-o @undaunton.life.
1:06:32
Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else,
1:06:36
including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way.
1:06:39
Just go to www.undaunton.life and also we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing
1:06:44
us to use their music for our content.
1:06:46
The music on this podcast is our song Perpetua, which is off their self-titled debut album
1:06:50
on Face Down Records.
1:06:52
The links are in the description.
1:06:54
I'm your host Kyle Thompson, remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual
1:06:59
mental and physical resilience, keep seeking the lion of Judah.