TOMMY GREEN | Holy Drone Violent Worship (Ep. 950)

Let's be honest, most men drift. We wake up, we scroll, we work, and then we just rinse and repeat. And we know we're softer than we should be. That's why I built the 31-day resilience reset. This is not a devotional. It is a field manual for men ready to stop drifting and start fighting back. So, for 31 days, you'll train your spirit, mind, and body with scripture, prayer, and daily challenges that forge real resilience. Go to www.undaunted.life/31. life/31day to download this resource for free. That's undaunted.life/31day. Start your reset today. This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. All right, guys. We got a special guest on the podcast today. His name is Tommy Green. He is the front man for the legendary Christian metal core band Sleeping Giant and also the front man for Holy Name. So, I know I've never done this for an interview before, but here I am. I'm repping the actual band Let's Go. I know the black V-neck is the normal uniform, but hey, I'm rocking the mustache now. So, it's a whole new year, I guess. New year, new me. But anyway, I've I've wanted to have Tommy on the show for the long for the longest time. And I got introduced to him through Brook Reeves of Impending Doom, who was previously on the show earlier this year. And the main reason I wanted Tommy on is because of his reputation and for his band's reputations for being legitimately Christian. And so that's what we talked about a lot in this particular podcast is like look there are Christian metal bands that I've talked about that were on Christian labels but they themselves weren't Christians or they thought they were Christians only later to be like yeah I don't believe any of this stuff. So, you know, so teologically speaking, they were never saved to begin with. And just being seeing how disappointing that was, but Sleeping Giant and Holy Name have been stalwarts in the Christian metal scene. And you know, for for years, we had Holy Name as the intro outro for our own podcast here. And just so we talked about the importance of worship music and not just CCM and how people hear Christian contemporary music and think that equals worship and vice versa, but how there's a lot of different genres. But we even go all the way back how he got into music, how he got into the hardcore scene, how some abuse and violence that he suffered as a child, maybe even led him to the style of music that he embraced. Then we just talked about really what it was like being in a band where it's like, "No, no, no. We're not Christians in a band. We are a Christian band and we're trying to glorify Christ and the things that we're doing. And then we we talked about a lot of different things. I got him to talk about even like his his music, Mount Rushmore, metal Mount Rushmore, all the frontmen. Uh got a little weepy myself there towards the end because he and I suffered a very similar tragedy and I was shocked even at my reaction whenever we started talking about it. But I just really really enjoyed this conversation. And we I just remembered we started out talking about jiu-jitsu and how important it is for men to kind of learn how to protect themselves so that they can protect others and how he kind of came from a more pacifistic uh background because of the violence that he saw growing up. You know, he thought it couldn't be used for good whereas I didn't really have that, but we both kind of ended up in the same place. But Tommy's just an absolutely genuine awesome dude. It was an absolute pleasure getting to connect with him. And we're certainly we're already planning out the next time that we can get uh him in here to talk and hopefully we can do that in studio. So you can be looking forward to that. So guys, I'm not going to keep him from you any longer. So without any further ado, let's get into it. Tommy Green, welcome to Undaunted Life of Man's podcast. [clears throat] >> Thanks, man. What's up? Hi. >> Well, I mean the what's up part is you and I did 20 minutes of a podcast before I hit the record button. And it wasn't that I it wasn't that I meant to hit the record button. It's just that we were talking so much about cool subject matters. I was like, "Well, okay, eventually we got to get this podcast going." But here we are. We've done it. >> We did it. >> Well, hey, it's because I just mentioned jiu-jitsu and then all of a sudden you like keyed in on that and you're like, "Oh crap, I didn't know that you trained." So, so I guess to to give our audience, you know, we'll get into the music stuff and all that. And so, uh, just, you know, talk a little bit about, you know, your familiarity with with jiu-jitsu and all that. Because everyone I feel like is on their jiu-jitsu journey. I even consider men who have never done it before to be on their journey. They just haven't gotten there yet. Like this morning I told I told my wife I'm like I don't want any friends that are not at least a blue belt. And she was talking about this particular dad. She's like does he even train jiu-jitsu? And I'm like well no. She's like well how could he be a blue belt? I'm like exactly exactly he needs to [laughter] train. So but anyway what what's your familiarity with all that? >> So cool. Yeah. Thank you. Um I I mean I started Well, I'll say it like this. So, I I uh I wish I would have started it a long time ago. And I had I just had an I had a >> I think coming from the hardcore scene that I had grown up in, like the music scene, it was it was in Salt Lake specifically, it was incredibly violent and it was just a it was a wild place. And so before I became a believer in Christ, I was around horrific stuff and big- time decisions got made like that. People's lives were changing because of violence and jail time and I mean it was just wild. It was like gang stuff and that it was just that's what it was. So, I saw real violence like for real. And um I think anything that sort of reminded me of that level of aggression or the ability to like hurt someone else when I first became a Christian, I thought, you know what, I need to become uh there was like a commitment in me. And it and I was just talking about this. Some of this I've had to almost like grow through and and and in repentance figure out what this is. But it was almost like uh it used to bother me. He says, "Be be wise as serpents." Yeah. >> And harmless harmless as doves. And I was like, "Huh? I want to be the type of person that can be a peacemaker, not like a I don't want to be a coward. And when I'm scared, I I want to know how to react when I get hit with all the adrenaline dump when there's a conflict." Like, you know, you just got to be able to handle it. But I saw people go from zero to like 150 so often that it was like violence just meant abusive demonic energy. And so I wish that I would have leaned in. We had a a grappling club at a church that I planted in Redlands, you know, 20 years ago. And I remember going and, you know, choking out a dude with his hoodie, you know, like and I remember like this is cool. Like it's great. Like it's fine. But I just felt like, yo, I don't want to ever I don't want to hurt anyone. And I had so much fear and so much uh scared, ego, pride that I didn't want to react and hurt someone as a pastor and screw up the witness that I had in the city. I didn't want to be that guy. And there's plenty of that, you know, weird ultra masculine attitudes in the hardcore scene anyway. So, I just like, well, I will be a peacekeeper and then we'll figure this out over time. But the minute I got into jiu-jitsu, like it was probably five years ago, I just felt like, man, it's like the gentle art. Like I I remember telling my son, I was like, "What I love about jiu-jitsu is you can end a fight. You don't have to be like a crazy striker. You don't have to stand up and bang with someone. Like you don't have to hurt anybody to put them to sleep." Like, and I was like, I just love it. So I just I got that a little late. So I started I'm I'm 45ish. I don't know how old I am. Chie Green, how old am I? >> I don't know. I'm 45ish, 46 there, so something like that. But I started when I was around 40 and um I started at a Gracie uh Salt Lake City spot. And just like the Combives program, I love that they had like a a way to kind of get to street readiness and you just watch the way that dudes think they can fight and how it all goes down. And I was like, "Oh, okay, cool." So I got my three kids into it. So my son is now 16, but he was like, you know, 11 or and then my daughter Piper and my little girl Poppy. They were all going to like the little kids classes. And really my aspiration was to complete the combives training and then just be a dude that could volunteer in the kids classes and just be with my kids. So, um, when I roll now, I no ghee at the gym that I go to, uh, just as a hobbyist. The guys are saying that I feel like a blue belt in my pressure, but I just am kind of committed to being like a, uh, I'm just sort of committed to being like a a a 19 stripe white belt for the rest of my career. So, that's like that's kind of my commitment is like I'll be a forever learner and if if progression like that happens, that's cool. Um, and I competed once, which was sick. And there [clears throat] was like no one old enough or heavy enough to be in my division. So, they like pulled some young kid that was like super buff like into my spot. And we went against each other twice and that was it. I was just like, "Okay." [laughter] It was cool. So, anyways, I love it. Every time I Every time I leave, I'm like, "Bro, this is the best." Like, it's so awesome. But like I said, like the young dudes are gas and I'm brakes. So I just feel like I just get checked all the time and I'm just like try to stay heavy and slow them down. [laughter] My whole thing. So there you go. >> Hey, well the the thing about it is is there's a and I've talked about the virtues of jiu-jitsu like so often and yes, like because you get into a fist fight with someone on the street and you knock them out, they fall, they hit their head on the pavement. I mean, there there there's maybe going to be c criminal charges for some of the things that happened. And you know, if you can take someone down, control their body. Uh cuz I remember talking to a guy that's just like, you know, why do I need to learn how to grapple? Like I always carry a gun and a knife. And I'm like, does every situation require you to stab or shoot someone? I mean, and and one day >> that's going to change your life forever, bro. You're going to call jail. Call jail. Tell them you're coming if that's your attitude. Like, bro, it's a big deal to hurt somebody like that. it there's ramific everything has a wake like you can't do that like I'm just gonna stab a dude it's like then you're going to jail like you will lose your job in the short term probably if you don't have anyone to bail you out you're screwed have fun sitting in county cuz you stabbed a dude for what like what are you doing like >> figure out another way bro [laughter] >> well and so we did our our Sunday school guys we did a self-defense night because a lot of us train jiu-jitsu and have done some you know muai you know kickboxing boxing and that kind of stuff. >> And so that guy came and look, he's 6'1, good athlete, decently strong. And a guy that just got his purple belt who's not, you know, a world beater, but he's he's not terrible. And they started to roll. And so I, you know, cuz I had this ruptured bicep, so I couldn't use my body to destroy anyone. So I decided to destroy him with my words. And so as they're grappling, I'm just like, and he's getting mauled. And I'm just, "Hey, buddy. Hey, just just grab your gun. Just grab your gun. It's right there in your belt. just go ahead and grab it. Well, his arms weren't where he wanted his arms to be, right? And he couldn't just grab it. And I'm like, "Hey, you're on your back. You've seen, you've said this before. Just stand up." You don't understand why guys don't just stand up whenever they're on their back. It's the easiest thing in the world. You're on your back. Just stand up. He couldn't stand up. He couldn't move. He can't couldn't reach into his belt line. And I was like, "You can go." And after the the round was done, cuz I was laying it on pretty heavy. I was like, "You can go one of two ways here. You can pretend like that never happened." and you know just oh you know that if if that were a real situation and my wife and children were about to be raped and murdered I would respond and I would see red and all that or you can realize holy crap I just got exposed I'm not as bad or as tough as I thought I was because you can't train and get to purple bell brown bell black bell level without getting your butt kicked constantly for years and guys just don't really understand that and you know for me it sounds like you had kind of like a natural pacifist bend at the and then you kind of were disabused of that. For me, I never really had that pacifist bend, but it wasn't until I did a debate, this was years ago, in Justin Brierley's show, they they brought me on to debate Shane Claybornne, who's like a a pacifist Christian activist guy. >> Yeah. And so he's just like, you know, anti-gun, antiviolence, and he destroys people's firearms for them and all those different things. But, you know, we meandered through this conversation and I tried to explain to him when Jesus said, "Turn the other cheek," he was talking about verbal sllights. That's that's why he was referring to the right cheek, right? That's a backhanded thing. That's a verbal slight there. This idea that Christians are just supposed to cower and sit there in the fetal position as they're being beaten on his nonsense. Um, you know, there's biblical claims for why the crusaders, you know, did what they did to push back the evils of Islam hundreds of years ago. But it was whenever I put him in the scenario of Glasgow's crash in the middle of the night, you go, you know, it probably wouldn't be him, but in this scenario, let's say he's the one that got out of bed to check and see what was going on. Well, by the time he got back to his room, oops, bad guys in the room, there's his wife. So, bad guys between him and his wife. What's your plan? And his plan was, you know, I'm going to call the police. I said, 'Well, you live in Philadelphia. Uh, roughly uh 3 to 4 minute response time is national average in large cities, it's usually a lot longer than that. So, when seconds count, you've got minutes until the cavalry arrives. What's your plan? And I eventually got him to the place where, you know, I would do everything I could. I'd grab a chair. I'd grab whatever. And it's like, well, that's your problem. bad guy's got a gun and all you have is your limp wrist and a chair. Like what are we going to do in that situ situation? Because there's an image bearer of God that's about to be violated and you do not stand ready to protect her. And so that's that's the the drum that I beat for a lot of guys is some guys are built for war. They come out of the womb, you know, rougher than a old leather boot. >> Some guys have to develop it. Like I'm on the ladder end. Like I wasn't born tough like that. I had to cultivate it by just doing hard stuff and making mistakes and getting my butt whooped year after year. You know what I mean? >> I think mine would I would say if I can add any little because I think what you're talking about is a it's [clears throat] awesome. And then I'd say for me like for four young men let's say who for me I was affected by as a young man both sexual and physical abuse >> right >> in the household and in the family and all that other stuff. I think the idea of what that does to your own self-image and how you're allowed to connect with your strength and stuff. It's like it's really hard when you're like well or addiction and that kind of thing. It's like when you see that the big like the people that look like you that came from where you came from. What's he what does St. Peter say? St. Peter says the empty way of life handed down to you by your ancestors. So >> some of that's your parent, your father, your grandfather, your great it's like some of us have an empty way of life and that empty way of life is all we know. And if part of that empty way of life is men use their strength in all of these really perverted and corrupted ways against other people, then as a young kid, what I would say what that did to me was I wanted to almost curse whatever that strength was that I had, whatever. >> It's like I don't want to be like that. So I don't It's like you have an instrument, you have a tool, and you don't know how to use it. like you don't even know if you're allowed to because the only time you've ever seen that used it's been bad >> or it's been hurting other people. So defending yourself or defending someone else that's corrupted. And so to retrain your brain around the fact that it would be okay to stand your ground, it would be okay to defend someone else. It would be okay to defend yourself. like some of us have to really work through that because it's been messed up, you know, like so many things have. And so I appreciate what you're saying in terms of like, yo, there's just certain times and and you hear it like music, film, poetry, writing, sometimes you don't have an option, man. You better figure it out. Like you're going to have to stand you're gonna have to stand and fight on some level. That will happen. That can happen. And in a world full of, you know, wild people, there's a fairly high percentage chance that you're going to end up in some level of confrontation with someone else. It doesn't always have to be violent or physical, but like you better figure out how you're going to relate to that tool that you have, this this part of what it is to be maybe masculine energy or a protector or a defender or a provider or whatever that is. So, I I appreciate what you're saying and I think in in a in a perfect world, right, in heaven, the lion lays down with the lamb. Like, we're not ve we're not there yet. And so, it's unfortunate because you want to kind of pull heaven into earth now. And unfortunately, there there are those times. I've seen it and I I hate it. I've I I would really struggle inside with like, man, was there another way that we could have done this? And unfortunately, sometimes like you got to bully back, dude. I'm sorry. Like if someone's going to push it, it's like >> Sorry, dude. You just got to check that guy and and it's not going to happen another way and I'm scared and I'm I'm sad and I'm frustrated that that's what it is. And that's another person. That's somebody's person. And right now I got to confront that really hard. It was very hard for me for a really long time. So that's what I would just admit is like >> everybody's an image bearer. It sucks when you got to figure out what you're gonna do. [laughter] When you're like, I don't know how to do this. Like, >> well, Tommy, as you were saying that, it reminded me of when when Jesus went to the tomb of Lazarus knowing what he was going to do. By the way, uh it it you know, when it talked about how he wept, when you look at some of the original language, it said he was like basically snorting with anger. >> Well, then you have to Okay, so I think most of us, like, especially if you're a ginger like me, we've snorted with anger before. We know what that means where you're not even saying words. you're just making it's just like you know the the little guy from Home Alone like like it's just it's that kind of a thing. >> Jesus is snorting with anger which shows us also that anger can be righteous because Jesus is ultimately righteous. So there's one thing but the other thing is what was he angry at? >> Yeah, >> he was angry at sin and death and it wasn't his time to kill sin and death yet and put it in the grave forever. And so I think for us as as men, >> there has to be a level, Tommy, of predecision that we we are going to be so angry at sin and death that we will stand ready to respond to it. Because guess what? It's not always going to be, you know, running into a burning building to save a family or defending a woman who just had her purse stolen and chasing the guy down and giving him, you know, giving him a whooping. Sometimes it's going to be, well, your wife's not acting very well right now, but you were called to love her sacrificially as Christ loved the church, so good luck with that. she doesn't deserve it right now and you don't want to do it. But that doesn't matter. Your feelings don't matter. Your decision to do the actions required in this process and again we're all being sanctified. That has to apply now. And so I think for a lot of guys, you know, and I'm not the first person to point this out, but you know, men think of that, you know, that Hollywood scenario where it's like, you know, they've got the wife and the kids and they go, "No, take me. I will sacrifice my life and you will let them go." Right now, that might happen for you, but the odds that you have to sacrifice your life one time to save other people is not nearly as high as the likelihood that you're going to have to sacrifice yourself and die to yourself daily in order so that others may flourish. And that again starts primarily with your wife, secondarily with your children, and tertiarily with everybody else on planet Earth. But you you said something that I I thought was interesting and I don't know if I'm drawing a connection that's not really there, Tommy, but >> there are people that are naturally drawn to dark things. Like >> those could be dark spirits, dark ideologies, rougher things, tougher things. I'm curious if because of your your upbringing and the things that you were exposed to and the things that you saw and also what God put you, you know, put in you before the foundations of the earth were laid. I wonder if that led you to the hardcore scene because sometimes we just hear certain genres and it doesn't ah I don't like that and then other times we hear it and it just agrees with us. But do you think your upbringing and the kind of that whole hardcore scene had some sort of you know connection? I you know it's one of those like nature nurture questions like ultimately I >> I think so and I I don't >> Yeah I I was talking about it with somebody else the other day. Um, yeah. I I think what it is is people are I think everybody is hardwired with a there's something inside of all of us as we're made in the image and likeness of God. And so I think every single person, and this is me just processing out loud, so Kyle, I reserve the right to be wrong and I reserve the right to change my mind. Like [laughter] it's fine. But but I think when you say that I go, you know what it is? Is that I think everybody made in the image and likeness of God has got something inside of them that God put there that's crying out for truth. And the truth that we're crying out for ultimately the fulfillment of that is the person of Christ. Like the theanthropos, the God man that makes truth not a concept but a person. Like we're crying out for the person of God. And I think when people discover truth, they latch on to it. And so I think in music, it wasn't a style, it was a quality of truth. >> Yeah. >> And you I could feel it in music. Some people Yeah. Some people feel it in art. Some people feel it only in film or TV or business or construction or building. Like they feel a truth. Like it's like the voice. It's this it's the quality of the creator in a way that like resonates with them. And I think it can be out of tune, right? Like it can totally be corrupted and weird and whatever. But when I was a little kid, I remember being really drawn to hip-hop. I really liked I like the words. I like the rhythm. I like like the pacing of it. I I like that they were telling a story and it felt like they were representing a world that I didn't understand yet. Like I couldn't understand, but I I got it. And then so then maybe what I went through um I just kept looking for it. And so I would just say they play the good notes. That's like what I still say sometimes. I'm like, "Yeah, they play the good notes." What that I think probably means to me is that quality or that frequency or that tone that seems to land for me that reminds me of something outside of myself or something beautiful or something powerful or something real. That's I would just say I think that's what it is, man. So yeah. And I think the abuse and the the shadow and the stuff that affected me and sort of the demonic stuff that I I sort of bore witness to when I was a little kid. I think that absolutely colors the way that I could see the world. But I also wonder if part of how I was designed >> um as a creative. It lents itself to that. So yeah, man. I I don't know, but I think so. Like when you say that I'm like, "Yeah, probably. Probably." >> Yeah. you're clearly high in trade openness and so you can be drawn to any number of things. Uh whereas like if you're highly conscientious it's like all right we got to be task oriented. We got to stay on task and you usually like more order in your music. But I remember being a little kid >> and I would listen to classic rock and oldies with my dad. But then the first time I heard Metallica now the first time I heard Metallica I was in sixth grade and it was the Reload album. So, not Load, not Anjustice for All, not Black Album, not Master of Puppets, not Ride the Lightning, not Kill Them All. It was people's least favorite Metallica era. Right. >> But I loved it. I loved The Unforgiven 2. I loved it. It agreed with my pallet. Then I started going to this youth group, not as a non-Christian. No one in my family went to church. That's just where all the cute girls were. That's where my friends were. So, I just wanted to be around. Yeah. >> And then I got introduced to kind of Lincoln Park hybrid theory pod fundamental elements of Southtown and I was like, "Okay, so Lincoln Park wasn't Christian, but they were clean." And then you had POD that were Christian, but they're talking about like Zion and like they've got like the all these weird rap rock elements. But I I can distinctly tell you the day uh my life changed as it pertained to how I consume art and specifically how I consume music. My buddy sent me home with two albums, Living Sacrifice Reborn and Zo Blood and Fire Bring Rest. >> I literally I'm getting chills just thinking about it >> because I'm a non-believer at this point right? >> I'm going to church and it's all these hymns and you know, we'll get to the CCM stuff here in a second, but like I remember putting that in my little CD player and immediately loving it. Now, a lot of people have a natural aversion, almost a gag reflex to that kind of music, specifically when it comes to the vocal delivery because it's screaming. But also, the music can be chaotic, hard to follow. You can't just, you know, snap along with it and like, you know, you know, bebop your way up and down the street. It's different. >> But from that exact moment, it made sense to me. like the music made sense to me and then it kind of opened up and then you get into, you know, your underos and your Dead Poetics and your your X Toes like all that kind of solid state tooth and nail stuff like in that early era and then you know then you learn about some of these bands and you realize they weren't Christian ever and so I want to talk about that as well. [laughter] Uh, so I I'm teeing up a lot of things we're going to talk about, but for you, I'm curious. What were some of those initial bands where it's like, okay, yeah, you know, you listen to the radio when you're at home or in the car, but when you start getting into your own vibe, your own music, those tones you were talking about, what were some of those bands and that hardcore, you know, metal underground scene? >> Yeah, it's a great question, Kyle. Thanks, man. Um, you know what? Actually, one of the first ones that I remember was like a bridge. It was a bridge to me was um well, now they're kind of having a moment, which is wild. So, this is this would be like a thing. One of the first records that I was able to buy by myself when I think I was 13. So, it started in punk rock and like Grunge because I moved I moved from California up to Washington State with my stepdad and my mom and he was a youth pastor. And so we landed outside of Seattle with a church full of like all these like grunge rock kids and they listen to everything and I wasn't allowed to listen to music which was just bananas to me. So I showed up and all these dudes are feeding me all these really great records and it's 1991 in Washington and it's all happening right then. >> Yeah. >> So I'm getting everything right. Like so it was like classic rock um uh Sound Garden and Allison Chains and Nirvana and uh Crass and Dead Kennedy's and you know so Give Me Convenience or Give Me Death was like one of my first like the Dead Kennedy's record. I just remember being so stoked on the drums when Nirvana's Never Mind came out. I remember being so pumped on the fact that it was on the radio but there was a because he wrote pop songs. You know what I'm saying? So it's like I could hear it. >> That was really important to me when I started playing drums when I was I think 12. Um, so it was punk rock and like grunge and that whole world and then um I think I was 13 and one of the first records that I got was by Helmet and it was called in the meantime and he sang [clears throat] some songs and he yelled other songs but the music was always heavy and I remember thinking I like this a lot and then dees adrenaline record was such a cool kind of crossover like I just was like shocked cuz it was so heavy. I saw them at Warp Tour um Instagram >> and they're still crushing it. They're still crushing it, >> bro. And they're I mean, and then this [clears throat] So anyway, so but the first like hard like weird hardcore band, I think I was 14. I might have been 15 and it was a band from Germany called Acme. And of I didn't know anything about I saw articles in like Hit Parader and like rocking about um New York hardcore bands, you know, like Shelter or Civ or like whatever. And I'd be like, "Huh, that's interesting." But I didn't really know what that was. Like I I knew it was a thing, but I wasn't sure. >> The first record that I remember hearing that I was like, "Can I borrow that?" was this band Acme. And the record was called To Reduce the Choir to One Soloist. And it was like beautiful. Like I understood the riffs, but he sounded insane and it was like double bit. It was like >> it was diff It was so much more aggressive and so much more powerful than any of the like metal I had heard at that point or any of the punk rock that I had heard at that point. It just like went up a level and I was like, "What is this?" And so that was probably the first one. And then um to be honest man it was like it was Acne and then uh there was a couple like the Earth Crisis Destroy the Machines record or Gamora Season's End or like any just the yelling I just remember being like man this is like different cuz they just screaming the whole time and then when I would read the lyrics all of a sudden it just was like I could hear what they're saying and then immediately it just like clicked in for me. So, it was a bunch. There was a bunch going on back then, but that's that's what I remember being like 15 years old and first hearing those guys screaming the whole time and it was like, "Oh, this is like helmet but like or some of those parts from Death Tones, but like there's no melody and it's not traditional song structure and you never know what's going to happen and okay, this is great. This is way cool." So, >> hey guys, real quick. You may have noticed a lot of companies out there that are advertising and marketing that they're American companies. But guess what, guys? All of their manufacturing and all of their jobs are overseas, right? These companies are manufacturing overseas in order to increase their profit margins, but they're allowing globalism to put America and Americans behind. And I've been [clears throat] wanting to partner with an American company with really all across the board, American companies that prioritize American workers, their families, and keep their word. And guys, I have been working with this company for so long. We're going on, I think, four or five years now. That's why I want to remind you that we are partnered with Origin. Origin is an apparel company based in Maine. And what do they make? They make, guys, literally the best jiu-jitsu geese on the planet. And they are the only jiu-jitsu geese that are made completely in America with all American products and completely with American hands. And I use the Rift 2.0 and the Nano Pearl geese exclusively. Now, they also make jeans. That is their best seller. They have very, very awesome stretchy jeans. And they also have work jeans and bootcut jeans. They make amazing hunting and outdoor gear. They offer handmade leather boots to include steeltoe boots. My personal favorites are the Whiskey Main mocktoe boots in a natural wedge sole. I wear those around all the time. And they also make great workout clothes. They have everyday pants and shirts. They're getting more into kind of men's casual stuff. They have indestructible hoodies. They're launching new apparel all the time. It's just an amazing amazing company. So guys, if you haven't already, you need to check them out and support a company that supports Americans. Try Origin out today by going to origusa.com. That's originusa.com. Use the promo code undaunted to get 10% off your order. Again, that's originusa.com. Promo code undaunted to get 10% off your order. Well, I think people that are in any kind of a scene and and you know, because again, being a scene kid is different from being a participant in the scene, right? That's not the same thing. But like I think there's cuz some people look at the music, oh, it's just subversive, it's distracting, it's just noise. And then some people are drawn to the fact that it's not popular, right? So they like the band all the way up until they blow up. So they loved Under Oath until they were number two on Billboard with whatever record that was and they're like, "Oh man, they sold out." It's like, or they're successful. They didn't really change their sound. They just got better. And so, uh, but I guess I'm curious for you, like at some point you realize, okay, I can just be a consumer of this type of stuff. You know, you you go from like rock to to more heavy metal to hardcore. And then, I mean, you kind of branch out. There's there's postcard hardcore, there's kind of like, you know, the heavier punk rock stuff. There's metal core. There's all this kind of stuff. But at some point, you decide or you were drawn into the fact that maybe you could do some of this. She said, "You know, when you play drums at the age of 12, but you know, I'm kind of, you know, fast forwarding a little bit, you become a frontman for uh a a a band that is so important >> to the Christian Metal Underground scene for two main reasons." And we'll get to Sleeping Giant overall and then I'm going to slobber all over you when we get to Holy Name. But it's it's [laughter] but the thing is is because >> the the songs take people back to when they first started singing them. They're there in scientists have studied this. the songs you listen to when you're 15, 16, 17, when you're still about 10 years before your brain's fully developed. Like, you can't remember why you walked in the kitchen, but you can remember the lyrics to a b-side song you listen to when you were 15. Well, what is that? There's something there in your overall development as a person. But it's because you created anthem type Christian music with Christian themes, but you're still believers. That's the other part of it is it wasn't like the mask was ripped off at some point. And again, I promise we're going to talk about that. And it's like, oh, these people were never Christians to begin with. They just wanted to get paid by Cornerstone to come play on the second stage or something like that. But when did you kind of decide or kind of like dip your toe into maybe I can create music, not just consume it? >> Oh, that started really early. That's I think why >> I started playing drums when I was 12 and I would we were covering grunge bands. I was in a goofy grunge rock band that was trying to play talent shows when I was like 12 or 13. Um, and I was playing drums. I just wanted to play drums. I I thought it was so awesome. I think when I moved to Salt Lake City from Washington State when I was 14, 15, we I was way into punk at that point. It was like it went from like grunge rock to like I want to play as fast as I can. And so I was just super into like punk rock. Um, and so I was in a bunch of punk bands. And then you start dovetailing into like, you know, agnostic front and minor thread and state of state of cause for alarm and all these guys like the S SOA dudes and Discord Records and all of a sudden you start crossing into like what is this like other stuff called hardcore punk like what is that bad brains and like all of a sudden now you're now you're in all of it and um bouncing souls are playing shows with like random so I'm I'm just watching the scene kind of unfold. I I started playing as soon as I could and we started creating as soon as I could. And so when I got to Salt Lake, I didn't know what really the like hardcore scene really was. That's when I really was introduced to like the local hardcore scene. And I started playing drums in a [clears throat] band, a like vegan straightedge band that was called Cherum. And I was [clears throat] one of the first members in that band. And I was not a believer. was pretty satanic as like a kid, secular humanist, just didn't believe in it, you know, whatever. And um we did that for a little while and then I met a bunch of dudes from Southern California when No Innocent Victim came out on tour and so NIV came out and I hung out with them and that was probably 1998. Um anyways, and so I remember liking them. They reminded me of people in my family that love the Lord. It was a similar feeling. I was like, "Oh, these guys I know this vibe. this feels like comforting to me in some way, but like I I can't I don't care about what they believe, but they were super kind to me. And so I I booked shows for them. They would come through um 98.99 into 2000. And then um I was just playing drums. And my friend Eric was like, "You should move out to California and play drums with me and my brother." And so I moved out to Redlands to be a drummer with Eric and Ryan. And in the meantime, we started a band for all the young kids in our crew that just needed to be in a band. And we had a bunch of singers. And that band was called Death Star. And I was like, can I sing? I just want to sing because I never got the chance to do it. And so I got to be one of the singers in Death Star while we were waiting for the other band that I was supposed to be the drummer for to like take off. And so Death Star took off almost immediately just because it was so fun. And in the midst of that, my life blew up and I I ended up everything I had been building in my life, everything I thought I was into, all that stuff, like my entire world collapsed. And that's when I was kind of like humbled, brought very low and was was found. That's when I got like saved by by the Lord. So, I was just nothing at that point. And he he just loved me. And I was like, "Yo, I didn't know this was real at all. I had no idea that you were real. I am so sorry. Can I tell everyone?" [laughter] So that was like so I was I was in Death Star and and I was leading I started a Bible study for kids that just didn't want to go to church because I didn't want to go to church either >> and I had no idea what I was doing and it was so presumptuous and stupid. But a bunch of people started coming. And so this Bible study turned into a church for hardcore kids in Southern California um called Tiffany, Tiffany Outreach. And that was my first like church that I planted. And then we were booking shows and had people coming through the church to play. And I was playing drums in a few other bands. I was in a band called Plague the Red Letters, which was super awesome with some of the dudes that were in um Sinai Beach and impending doom and like Yeah. So we were just booking shows. Uh Suicide Silence played at our church. I think 400 kids came to the church. [laughter] It was just like we just we were doing all sorts of stuff. Donnie like all the Donnie Brook dudes like every we were just like a spot in Southern California. So we were a part of the scene. But I was a single dad at this point and I was trying to pastor and I didn't have a lot of time. So I I had left I had left to just pastor and like be a part and that's all I was doing. and I was playing drums a little bit and then some friends came to me and said, "We'd love for you to sing in a band. Um, would you consider singing in a band?" And they said, "Yeah, but I'm only going to talk about Jesus because that's all I care about." And they're like, "That's all we care about. That's fine. We just want you to sing again." I was like, "Okay, cool." So, they started So, is uh uh uh Travis and Corey um came to me and were just like, "Yo, do you want to do you want to do this band?" And so that's how Sleeping Giant like started was like I was pastoring a church and I just figured I'm just going to do what I would normally do anyway here and we'll just see what happens. And that was 200 five end of 2004 end of 2005 is when we started and our first show that we played was like my bachelor party show the night before I married Chrissy Green. So February 17th, 2006 was our very first show and then I got married February 18th. And so anyway, so yeah, so that was how Sleeping Giant started was it was it was centered around me really failing failing at life big time and and the Lord saving saving my soul and then me trying to give back in some way and then the band was almost like a natural offshoot of that. when I think that part of the thing is a lot of bands have reputations and so I I remember who was it u oh uh it'll come to me here in a second but I remember the band they played the song Vultures metal band the Vultures they it was with the guy from Lamb of God uh gosh it's going to kill me I'll go look it up here in a second but I remember that band had a reputation both of their guitarists were insanely good but the biggest jerks in the world and so you knew when you went like Hey, you know, enjoy the concert, but don't try to talk to them, right? It was kind of one of those things. And then and then there are bands, uh, A Life Once Lost. Uh, and then there are bands that where it's like, you know, whether you like the music or not, they're just the best. Like, you know, I've become over the last several years, uh, friends with all the members of Skillet. They couldn't be nicer human beings. All of them are actually believers in Christ. And of course, they play big arenas and big shows, sold out shows all over the world. >> I've never I've never met them, but I know a bunch of people that know them. But yeah, so they're just like humans. They're just people. >> Well, that's right. They're just humans and they're just regular people and they just love the Lord and they want to tell you about it. But the the reputation that Sleeping Giant had and this was for good or for ill based on the person like giving their opinion was they're just going to talk about Jesus, bro. And like you know this isn't No, no, no. Like this is like those dudes suck. OH GOD. OH GOD. OH GOD. >> THIS IS going to be a set, right? This is going to be a set with songs in it. Whether you're playing for 15 minutes or 45 minutes, whatever the thing is, but it's not just the lyrics of the songs that's going to do the speaking. You are actually going to be the speaking and you will be preaching and inviting people and even compelling people to to accept Christ uh or to allow Christ to find them, whatever your preferred uh you know, sotiological vernacular is. But like the ultimately the the thing is is that was y'all's reputation. But this is where I want to kind of get into the side is I remember being so >> excited that there were bands that played music that I liked that also were Christians, right? Only to find out in adulthood that no, actually not Christians. So like Zo was my favorite band for the longest time, but don't meet your heroes. Uh you know, Dan no longer says he's a follower of Christ. Uh Asly Dying was huge in the scene whenever I was, you know, going to a bunch of shows. They they were on like metal blades so they weren't a Christian band but there were you know biblical themes as part of their songs and Tim Lambis you know said he was a Christian he has since fallen away or again preferred vernacular maybe he never was a Christian can't lose one of his sheep right but then the same thing embodiment >> said yeah we just signed with a Christian label because it was like we can get paid 50 bucks to play at a bar or a thousand bucks to play at a church and so we just decided not to cuss smoke drink and have sex with the groupies while everyone was around but we never really believed any of this stuff. And so I'm just curious for you as a guy that was making records, you know, doing stuff with Face Down and touring with bands from all all over the the spectrum, you know, secular, Christian, all that. What's your read of that situation for people that literally took the Lord's name in vain by claiming >> belief in God or even claiming Christ, all the while knowing they don't believe any of this stuff. They just want to get paid and they found a niche that would pay them. Yeah. So, the the question is what? Yeah. How do I relate to that? Um, >> as one of the guys that didn't fall away or that wasn't actually, you know, playing a part, you know, >> dude, I got a, you know, I was a bank manager for a while, like when I first started in Sleeping Jack, like when I I had to move from California to Salt Lake. Um my my daughter's mom moved from California back here. Um and that's why we've been here for a long time. We left California right when the band had started. It like started growing and I was like I got to get out of here because my daughter just left. And so I got a job with the bank so I could transfer. And so um all I knew how to do at that point was like be saved by Jesus and cry about it. Like that's I was like I don't have a skill set. I got over like bragging about the Lord and like basically being a mess, you know? So I I got a job at this bank and moved out here and and so I would be bank guy and then I would fly back to California for like some show and then I would come back and be like, "Welcome to Wells Fargo." Like so I was just like working on this bank and I remember that there was a training we did and it was um >> it was like how to spot counterfeit money. >> Yeah. >> And um we would just we were counting bills all the time. I mean, hundreds of thousands of dollars I've had in my hands just counting, you know, straps of $20 bill for like I mean, you're just you're dealing with cash all the time. And so they're like, you know, the way that you understand the counterfeit isn't by studying the counterfeit. Um, the way that you understand the counterfeit is you just deal with the real so much that the minute the counterfeit bill crosses the counter, you can like you're like you can just feel it. You're like, "No, this isn't it." I say that because I didn't become a Christian I didn't become a Christian for a band and I didn't become a Christian because it was cool and I didn't become a Christian because of my friends. I didn't I didn't become a I didn't become a believer in Jesus because it did anything for for my image and I didn't I didn't become a Christian because of bands. Um and so when I got saved, I remember in Southern California, we were in the zone that we're in right now where it hasn't been cool to be a Christian band for a long time. It's like a dead zone. You know, there's a bunch of young bands that are starting to come up. So there's going to be a new like revival of Christian hardcore is going to happen again market. It's like clock that it's going to happen right now. Like it's on and over the next few years hopefully there'll be another wave of faith and people feel encouraged to believe in God again and some of the people that left are going to come back and it's just that's just like the cycle of it. So when Sleeping Giants started we were in this time right now where it was just like gone. Everyone was like we're just Christians in a band. We're not a Christian band. like we don't know what to do with that. And I got saved and was going to die and he saved me. And I was like, what are you embarrassed of? And it was like, I don't care about any of you at all. Do you know how real he is? Like, I'm about it. And it was like boom. And all of a sudden, people were like, it's okay to just believe again. Boom. >> And it like started this thing. >> Great. I didn't do it because I believed in the I was looking at the other Christian bands like you sissies, what is the matter with you? You have the ability to reach out to people and tell them about Christ, not about your band. Your band is stupid. Like, who cares? Like, that's where I was. So, to come on tour with a bunch of dudes that are just trying to figure it out, man. I mean, these poor guys, they're 20 years old. Like who knows who they are when they're 20? Like who really know? Like so all these guys are living on the road. It's not a real existence. It's like there's so many things against you trying to be an itinerate kid in a bunch of different cities surrounded by all this insecurity and performance and I mean your money and your you live in a van down by the river. Like if you don't do good you can't go home. Like there's all this stuff swirling. So, I would just submit that couple things. Becoming a Christian in the hardcore scene or being a Christian metal artist on a long enough timeline is going to wreck your faith if it doesn't if it doesn't heal it. If you're not actually connected to the church, you're screwed. Like, you are screwed, bro. Because on a long enough timeline, you're going to see just enough lame, weird >> Christian people that you're going to be like, I don't want to be a part of this community anymore. And when you go all over the country, you see all of the Christians. You know, it's not like when you just live in a city and you have a small community, you're like, yeah, these are my people and I love the Lord and I my my my view is this big and I work and I take When you've gone all over the world and you've seen all of Christendom, that's like good, bad, and ugly. it really affects the way that you're going to relate to the church. And I just think the longer these guys stay on tour without any real sense of home or connection to the church, the more damage it does to their ability to actually just like trust and be a part of the body. So, you can't be a Christian without the body. You just can't. Like, there's like no such thing as a solitary Christian. Like, that doesn't exist. That's like a it's a fable. Like, you cannot be outside of the body on your own. You will die. So, you do that in a van acting like you're ministering to all these people, but you really don't have any root in yourself and you're not connected at all. Dude, it's like a minefield. What are you expecting? You know, >> y >> and that stuff's corny, dude. If you're not about it, just say you're not about it. But how dare you use the name of Jesus to try to sell records, you morons. You are not >> cool. That is the dumbest thing I've ever seen. And I've also seen the wave of bands that were like, if we're a Christian band, we're going to get the opportunity because Christians are dumb and they just show up for everyone that says they're a Christian. And so it's like, yo, if we as Christians aren't just going to be about Christ, then we're going to let morons ruin our Christianity. And the point is, eye on your eyes on your own plate. You just stay focused on Jesus for yourself. And if people are going to disqualify themselves or they're not going to run the race well, I'm going to outlast by the grace of God some morons that are just like pretending. I'm not a pretender when it comes to him. I am struggling my way through this, but I'm going to stay connected to the body of Christ and I'm going to continue to pursue the head who is Christ and I by the grace of God I'm going to get to the finish line. But the idea that this is like some easy thing, it's like this is spiritual reality we're messing with. So kids are going to pretend that the spiritual reality called like the epic conflict between light and darkness is something you can just play with cuz you're a minstrel, bro. I mean, do you think that's going to save you? Really? Like, so I don't I don't blame them, but I don't mess with them either. I there's certain people that we toured with that I was like you're fake and so you're only gonna get like this much of me because I don't believe you and I don't I would do the same thing with like goofy metal bands that saying about like I'm going to kill this person. I'm going to cut off their head. I'm like you're you're a fake. Like what are you singing about? Like you're not saying anything real to me at all. So I don't I don't believe you. Like if you like if you're not about it I don't believe you. And what I wanted was people that even if they didn't agree with me, like I have a friend who just said [laughter] like he's got crazy demonic tattoos everywhere and he's like, you know, 666 on him and like huge baffé like thing and he's he's a dear he's a friend and he just said he got interviewed by this guy and they're like interviewing him and he's like listen I don't believe any of this stuff. He's like, "Yeah, these guys." And he looked at me in the band, he goes, "They actually believe this stuff. They're crazy. Like, [laughter] I'd rather be that." It's like, I really believe this weirdo Jesus magic stuff. I'm in. So, I don't mind being a weirdo for that. And so, that's the level of reality I'm looking for. And what I love is the the sound and the quality, the reality, the truth in the hardcore scene of the pain and the the disillusionment and the the stuff that people are really going through that needs to be expressed. That's where I was. That's who we were. That's where we stayed. So when I bumped into performers using whatever the image was, >> I was unimpressed anyway. I didn't care. if you were a jerk. It's like, dude, I can't wait for you to be done with this tour because I'll never talk to you again. But like, I I wasn't gonna be affected by their hypocrisy. I was trying to make sure that I wasn't a hypocrite myself. And that takes enough effort, bro. But I, you know, I'm I'm saddened because >> it's a cottage industry or whatever. It's like it sucks that people can do it because of the business. We I didn't do it for that. I I they and they don't have anything in my ministry and I don't have anything in their ministry obviously. But that's what was unfortunate was it felt like the really really sincere people either had to leave because they just could not be a part of this or >> it just they would get washed out and there just felt like there was less and less of us that were like really truly about it. And that's that's okay, I guess. Like I don't know. >> Well, here here's the thing. God will not be mocked. And so we're kind of in this cultural moment right now where people are okay with saying the word God and even saying the name Jesus. And there are artists across the musical spectrum that are saying things about Jesus, making songs about Jesus. But this get gets back to really one of the center points of my entire ministry. So for years I was asked to do a full episode on it and I did it uh years ago. But it the episode was called Contemporary Christian Music is for women and affeminite men. >> [snorts] >> And what I did in that episode is I laid out how when I became a Christian as a 15-year-old at First Baptist West in Lton, Oklahoma, that when I would hear contemporary Christian music on the radio or something like that, I was just like, it just like it would hit my ears. I just didn't like it. It's kind of like you eat black licorice, you either like it or you don't. You eat, you know, mint chocolate chip ice cream and if you're a satanic, you like it. And if you're not, you you know, uh you hate it, right? You know, if you're of a god, you hate it. It's the worst. Throw it in the garbage. But what I'm saying is is like I didn't understand why this music was so bad and I thought something was broken in me. Then I get into the Christian underground metal scene and the lyrics and all that kind of stuff. I'm like, "Oh, okay. There's other genres." >> But then there just kept being that thing as I was being forcefed this same kind of music at church, whether it was, you know, popular CCM or whatever and even, you know, you would get the occasional hymn. And it was basically like, "Hey, if you don't like this, there's something broken in you." And one day, I talked to enough men, Tommy, that feel feel the same way I do during worship. They don't have a pride problem. They don't have an issue. They just hear this music with, you know, lyrics where if you took out the name Jesus and put in the name, you know, Jimmy, it's going to seem like they're singing to their boyfriend. So, it's kind of homoerotic and they kind of naturally put their hands over their crotches or their hands in their pockets and they're just like, "Oh, I can't wait for this to be over." And the the [clears throat] reality the real thing is is you know just like the church being a part of the body is not optional. Worshiping God through song is not optional. But it's not just CCM right there is Christian hiphop. There's Christian, you know, country. There's Christian pop. There's Christian SCA. There's Christian metal and all the different genres that pull out from there. But Tommy, years ago, I'm sitting down having lunch with a worship pastor, a local worship pastor here. And I was just like, "Yeah, you know, I just I'm not really into CCM, you know, you know, radio Christian stuff. It's just not really my thing." And he literally fervently said, "Kyle, I'm not sure you're saved." >> And I was like, "What? What?" Because I don't like the way this genre sounds to me. And then here's the other thing, and then I'll turn it back over to you. What these dumb dums don't understand is there are a bunch of Christian [clears throat] contemporary musicians on Air1 and K Love and they go to the Dove Awards and all that that don't believe in Christ. The lead singer might, but maybe the drummer doesn't. Maybe the uh the basis doesn't. Maybe the the roies don't. The producers don't. The managers don't. The people at the label don't. They're in it to make money. And they're in it to make money off of gullible Christians who literally buy anything. That's why something like Purix or whatever can make a terrible, crappy, awful movie, but Christians will listen to it and they will watch it because we feel obligated because we got to have something cool as Christians. But I just want to get your read of that situation because I've been told by people because intro outro music of this show has been, you know, uh, Void Awaken and Holy Name and August Burns Red and people are like, "Well, those are demon notes. Why would you start your show with demon notes? That's obviously satanic. You know, I repost a holy name music video and they're like, "Well, look at those skulls in the background. Why is everyone wearing black? Does that guy have dreadlocks? Did you know that back in the tribal times when they were worshiping pagan gods, they would blah blah?" And so, it's all these arguments about how this genre, how a certain genre can somehow not be redeemable by God. It's like, do you think there are notes that can be sung or beats that can be hit that God can't use for his gospel purposes? What's wrong with you? But anyway, now I'm preaching. I'll turn it back over to you. I know it's a lot there. >> Oh, [clears throat] well, there's a couple things, right? Um, and I would say it like this, like I, you know, I would I would even argue with them and I would say to you, there was a point, there was something you said that I'd go, hey, you know what? I get what you're saying. And [clears throat] um, there's a psalm that says to you, O Lord, even silence is praise. So I would just argue that what people are really talking about is like stylistic differences and choices and and who in the world like if you read like ultimately when the church was formed worship for them when the Christian church was formed worship centered around the eukarist like do this in remembrance of me they'd meet in their homes they'd have the Lord's on the Lord's day they would celebrate and they would read the psalms and they would listen to the stories of the gospel reading of he did this and this is what he did. Like the apostles would be sharing about what Christ did and who he was and it was like they they it was a different type of expression. They didn't have electricity. They didn't have amplifiers. They didn't have instruments like that. Like it's like what are we talking about? Hold on. >> Who [clears throat] says worship is music anyway? Like as a music like hold on one second. Let's back up for a second. If I'm mute and I can't sing, am I unable to worship? If I can't see, if I can't hear, if I can't read, how am I supposed to be a Christian if I'm not allowed to engage in this like modern expression of what we say Christianity is? So, let's go all the way back to the beginning for a second. Worship is deeper than music. Praise is deeper than music. And pray praise in song is one form, but like that's not it. Like >> that's right. If if you look at even seven Hebrew words for praise, it's like to bow low, right? Like in Psalm when it says, "Let the praise of the Lord be in my mouth." That word praise is baruk, which means bow. So it's weird because we read our translations and we think it's this thing. I'm going to jump and shout. I'm going to sing. I'm going to yell. I'm going to scream. I'm going to do all we're talking high praise. But worship is a is a posture of of the heart. It's a quality of who you are. It's the practice that Christ prescribes. And some of the stuff that we're doing is like additions. Like these are new things. So like how are we going to argue over some stuff that didn't even exist a hundred years ago? Like you can't like anyway. So what I would suggest to anybody that's going to say is like, "Hey man, worship of Jesus is deeper than music. So stop arguing about your musical preferences or saying that this is good and this is bad because like you said, we could poke holes in anything. Your favorite Christian favorite Christian artist could have three or four really sick musicians that help record that have no interest in Christianity at all, but everybody thinks they're like super anointed because they're really talented at their instrument. It's like the mean the if the ends don't justify the means. Let's just stop for a second, >> right? >> What is worship? What did Jesus say worship was? You guys figure that out before you start tearing down other people because they worship different than you. Let's make sure that we're all actually like in accord first. And then just it's not it's not just music, man. Because like the music that people use for worship now didn't even exist 50 years ago. So it's like what are we what are we arguing about? So my thought is like I'm doing this now as an expression of gratitude and love and praise for God. But like if it all ended tomorrow like I did a song we did a song with uh with Brooke. Brook Doom did a song for a man of God and we talked about it where I said, "Hey, you know what's gonna be funny is if these people don't figure out what they're about when the power goes out, >> everyone's going to be in real trouble because now there's not electricity in the room. What like what what does the church do when the lights go out? Who are we then?" And so he did a song called, you know, welcome to the church in the dark. And it's like, what happens when all of our trappings and all of our crutches and everything goes away? What is worship? What is praise? What is the church? Who are we? How could they do it back then and we can't do it now? So anyway, so all that to be said is like I I agree with you and I think that it's consumerist stuff. It's just because what's popular doesn't necessarily mean that the quality is there. And I think for me because I've been sort of affected by that consumerrist like performancedriven culture, I have a really hard time with a lot of mainstream Christian music now anyway cuz I know behind the scenes it's just like the regular record industry, which is really like messed up. So, I don't want to be mean to other people, but I I have a really hard time personally engaging with a lot of the popular Christian music because I don't think it's very good and I don't know what they're talking about and it feels really self-absorbed and like, >> well, that's what they're talking about actually. That's that's what they're talking about. They're talking about how how much God is into them and how they're the point and how the Bible's not just for them. it's about them somehow how they're David in the story of David and Goliath and like it's all those things and part of the other thing is is like some people love the repetitive nature of worship music because it's hard for them to memorize songs and lyrics and so if it's a 12minute song where it's chorus chorus chorus verse two chorus bridge key change course chor course again they love it and and it's written in a way to evoke emotion and so you want to get an emotional response from these people before the guy gets up and gives his TED talk. And so if that's your thing, I understand that's very palatable to a wider audience and people are easily manipulated by music. That's why you can watch a movie >> that way for sure. >> That's why you can watch a movie and if we turned the the score off, you would feel nothing. But all of a sudden, we throw some Han Zimmer on there and you are at the edge of your seat sweating wondering what's going to happen in space to Matthew McConnA. And so like that's that's part of the thing that that happens to a lot of people is we don't understand how easily we can be manipulated. And here's the thing. When I'm in the mood, I love Shane and Shane. I love Phil Wickham. I especially love when they cover things like, you know, some old hymns and all those different things. And there's even some random super, you know, repetitive, you know, Christian songs where the theology is not absolutely terrible slop. And, you know, I can get into that. But most of the time, more than 50% of the time, my mood is in a more aggressive manner. And when and here's the other thing, like I didn't grow up in a tradition, Tommy, where there was a lot of hand raising in in worship and all of that. Like it was Baptist church. There was a lady that brought a tambourine one Sunday. No one ever saw her again after that. And so I don't know what they did. I don't know what they did with that woman, but I you know, I've been praying for her soul since then. [laughter] But I can remember being down in front at a POD concert when Sunny's doing his thing and I was worshiping. I can remember uh when at a for today concert where they're about to play uh oh gosh I can't remember uh it was like the first the first track off their first album and I turn to my buddy and I go I'm not going to be responsible for what happens in the pit during the song but I was worshiping God through aggression. >> And so that that that brings me to 2021 >> here I am Tommy I'm minding my own business right and then you know I'm just absolutely minding my own business and then out of nowhere a song found me. I would I didn't go looking for it. I didn't go looking for it, but it's this song by this random band with this camelc case name. They couldn't just separate the words out. So, it was holy name, one word, not holy, and then name. And so, I'm like, all right, I don't don't know what that's about. I don't know what's going on in this artwork here. And it says, "Meet me somewhere quiet." And I I was like, "Well, this is supposed to be loud music. Why is it quiet?" And then I put it on and I'm like, >> "I've never heard anything like this in my entire life." like >> it was it was so unique >> and it was so >> worshipy but also heavy and then I I can't remember what the next one was. Maybe it was Perpetual, maybe it was something I I don't really know. >> Yeah. >> And so you you do the Sleeping Giant thing for a while, right? You put out your albums, you know, you do the Face Down thing like this is a this is a thing. You established yourselves as one of the most legendary, legitimately Christian, metal, hardcore, metal core, whatever band genre you want to put it in of that era and then you disappeared, right? Everyone thought Tommy had fallen off uh fallen off on, you know, the earth's flat obviously, so we thought you fell off and uh we're never coming back and then Holy Name happens, but it's not Sleeping Giant remixed with different guys. >> It's something different entirely. And I've wanted to ask you this singular question for years, and we finally made it happen. You categorized it as holy drone violent worship. >> And I was looking at my closet this morning and I actually remembered years ago I bought a holy name shirt that because it said violent worship on it >> because I remember violent worship makes sense to me in my brain and my pallet when convictions said that they were aggressive worship. I was like no no no they yes that that fits in my brain. You know when Michael Felker was talking about it on my show years ago I was like yeah that fits. But just take me through the story of not doing music for a while and not just rekindling Sleeping Giant, but making a completely different thing that sounded like frankly nothing else that I've ever heard. >> I'm I'm really I mean that's a I mean that's high praise, Kyle. Thank you. I um Thank you. Yeah. I I don't know. Uh we so um holy name holy name is like what I was there's a sound that and there was something I was trying to find for like a long time and uh there were moments in and out where I would say like if we could just do this. So we we ended Sleeping Giant in 2018 um and then uh and we brought that to a close. We our last show was 12 years to the date of our first show. I I had a friend, a mentor that said >> uh a few years before that, he said, "Tommy, everybody's got a vision for the beginning. No one ever has a vision for the end." >> That's right. >> So, I was like, "Okay, I'm going to get a vision for the end." >> And we are going to put out our last record. We'll do a couple farewell dates. Instead of a music video, we'll film almost like a documentary to just tell the story well. and then we'll end 12 years to the date of our first show and we'll be done because it was it was a lot. There was a lot of the you know band stuff is crazy and so there's a lot that went into that. So when we ended that, that was a big deal for me. And and I I really was like done and I was glad to be done. And then we get a a year, two, three years. Um I I had been writing music by myself for a long time, you know, more acoustic kind of like prayer room plan by myself with the Lord in my house. Meet me somewhere quiet. I wrote I still have the recording of it from 2014 in my living room. me just playing by myself on the guitar. And so right around COVID, uh, we usually had a bunch of people come to Salt Lake City from all over the world once a year. We had kind of a church planting group of hardcore kid churches and stuff. Anyways, everybody would come to Salt Lake once a year for the Rev gathering. Everybody would fly in. We couldn't do it because of COVID. And so I remember telling everybody, "Hey, why don't you guys all record a song wherever you are and we'll make it like the COVID mixtape." And that way the Florida crew and our UK church and the Texas dudes and the California dudes and the Arizona guys and the Colorado guys, like all of us can kind of share together. And uh the UK crew is in was in Birmingham. We had just launched the church like a year or so before. They're in that Christian metal band, Meet Your Maker. >> That's them. They're from Birmingham. They're incredible. But yeah, they did a song and then one other group did a song and I I was like, "Well, I'll do one then because you guys aren't like [laughter] doing the thing." So I I I sent some songs to my friend Joe who was part of the tribe. He was in Minnesota and I said, "Hey, can you make a couple of these songs heavy?" And he was like, "Yeah." And so I sent him mine and just said, "Can you?" And he was like, So I sent him Meet Me Somewhere Quiet, the version that I did on the guitar. And and then he was like, "Okay, let me let me think about this." So he put it together, kind of heavied it up, and then sent it back to me. And I was like, "Sick." And at the end of it, when it gets like all crazy, it's cuz Joe just wants to kick walls. So he's like, "I want you to worship and I want to kick walls." And I'm like, "That's great." So we did that. And in a lot of ways, I just told him, I'm like, "I'm look, this is a sound I've been looking for for a long time." >> [clears throat] >> And even just to bring it all the way back, you know, the first some of the first records that I really responded to, like Helmet, he it's all heavy, but he sings some, he yells some, and I was like I I grew up in that '9s era where it was it was beautiful, but it was like dissonant, and it it didn't always sound pretty, but it was somehow pretty. And it was like I I just all those influences all came together. So when we put out Meet Me Somewhere Quiet and and Holy Name started, it was a way for me to process through everything that I was going through at the time. And so I really really appreciate the fact that it meant uh something to you and and to start going down that direction. It felt like a gift being given to me because I really needed to be able to express somehow and I wasn't I didn't know how to do it in in any other way and so it just something had to kind of give. So, I was so appreciative of Joe being able to kind of help translate the stuff that I was hearing in my head and then we just started writing stuff together and putting out singles and people really liked them and I I really like it. It's like my fa it's my favorite, but I'm like I really like it. And so, we just kind of kept going and then JD hit me up and was like, "Hey man, do you have any more of these?" And I was like, "We probably could." You know, and so that was how we ended up putting out a handful of songs. And then Face Down was like, "Do you want to give us some more? will put out a record and um and then by the grace of God kind of everything else happened with like I just I've had visions of what I wanted to do for a long time and so this feels like the first time I've been able to kind of like do the stuff that I've I've been imagining you know for a little bit. So >> Okay. And so the category of holy drone violent worship please explain that because I get the last two but holy drone like bring it all together for me. >> Yeah. like, well, I think in general it's like I just knew that there was a there's a it wasn't meant to be strictly emotional, but there's an idea that like that that I there's got to be that like undercurrent of like beauty and weight and like heaviness. I don't mind sitting in a song for a while. I don't mind doing that. So like fall on your knees [clears throat] is like 8 minutes long. And when we sent it to Latru, we sent it to Ryan. And he goes, "Hey, dude. This is like a seven and a half minute song. I would cut like and I'm like, >> we cut nothing. Like this is the song. Like we we're in this." And so Perpetual was actually started as a trap song. My friend Eddie had a he had a trap project called Drug Train. And um he he's a dear friend. And so I was like, "Yo, would you ever make a beat for me so I could like worship Jesus over Drug Train stuff?" And he was like, "Yeah." So he came over and made this like hip-hop song. And I sang the lyrics to Perpeta over this like kind of slower like hip-hop song and I sent that to Joe and I was like make this heavy. And so Perpetual is actually Chrissy Green's patron saint years later. But I like she was an inspiration when we first read her story. St. Perpetual was an incredible martyr. And so I had these phrases in my head when I was singing the drug train song, you know, like perpetual, like it just kind of came out and it was like almost like post Maloney kind of weird. And I was like, "This is great." So I sent that song to Joe's like, "Make that heavy." Like anything I had done kind of by myself, I just sent over and I was like, "Do you want to do something with this?" And so we just kind of put stuff together and and put it out there. So, the holy drone to me is like I I want people to to be able to engage and I want I want to slow certain things down. I want people to be be able to like really connect and for some reason there's just that quality to me of like yeah, I just want it to feel like it's different. I don't I don't know. That's that's what it was for me is like we'll go fast and we'll be heavy for sure, but sometimes I'm just going to like do some we do whatever we want. So that's that's just kind of like where that all fit. So, >> well, let let's go let's go to uh the live record y'all did in uh 2023, the live in Chicago, because so so here's the thing about it. I typically will skip live albums because they sound so bad because dude, bad. >> But I just listening to the first track My Way being like, "Oh my gosh, the sound is so good." And I didn't know and I didn't watch the video of it until later, but I was like, did they just like fake it, play live, but then they just put a bunch of, you know, effects on it on the back end or something? Was it the acoustics of the room they were in? But the thing just sounded incredible. >> And then, you know, go ahead, please. Yeah. I mean, explain cuz I I couldn't figure it out. >> It's both It's both and so like we we recorded everything live in Chicago in that room. Everything was tracked to a board because we didn't want it to be like [clears throat] I don't know some of my favorite records that are like live records I mean they're just muddy and they're gross and you're like all right it's fine whatever. I didn't want it to be that because on some level we had I had friends with me >> and I know how hard it can be >> to yell and scream when you have it just it's hard. And so I wanted it to sound awesome. So, we recorded everything to the board and you know what? I had to ret track a bunch of my vocals because the symbols from Rookie kept bleeding into my mic. Yeah. So, we got to the end and it was like, oh man, it's like close, but like we got to redo some parts. So, I had to ret track a bunch of vocals. We we made sure to like compress and produce the the screamer guys. Like, all that stuff is real. So, we did everything we possibly could live in that space, but we also controlled the environment. We played every song twice. So, we got two versions of it >> to make sure we had everything that we needed. And then we just produ we produced it like a record because I wanted it to sound good. Even though really it was for that live performance. That was like our first show ever. And I just wanted, if I'm honest, what I said was I don't we're not in a position to tour. Joey has four girls. He manages a warehouse for this spot in Minnesota, now in South Dakota, we can't tour. So I said, you know what, the world says right now, if we put something out there, people are going to find us on the internet. So let's tour on YouTube, let's make it awesome and tell a story and like this will be a very real thing for us and that can live out there and then maybe people like it. I had I did not expect the homie Brian to show up. I didn't know I >> right that well that's what I wanted to ask about next. So let let me actually kind of tee that up because I remember watching and I don't know if it was the thumbnail like you know who that is in the thumbnail [clears throat] when you ever see it. You don't need the name. It's it's Brian Welch head from corn. You know obviously he had his uh man this is 20 years ago now when he when he came to faith. Um and you know he did that I am second video kind of explaining kind of where he was. You know, I remember distinctly watching that and him he could he heard his daughter, his little girl, singing the lyrics to Adidas, which is all day I dream about sex. And he was like, "Oh man." And I mean, he's drug addicted at this point, like alcohol. Like it was crazy. And the Lord just snatched him up out of that. And so like I remember getting and watching Fall on Your Knees, which I know everyone has to pretend like they like the B-side better. That's my favorite song that y'all done because it takes so long to get there. I love Brooke. Brooke. Brooke from Impending Doom. He's the one that got us connected. And like I just you love that he just doesn't care about like, hey, I'm going to make [clears throat] this record and it's going to sound dingy and it's going to like it's going to be violent and these lyrics are going to be the way that it is. This is impending doom. Deal with it, nerds. Like I love that that style in terms of what he does. >> But then when that when that song starts, >> you know, Brian comes out in this enormous jacket coat. I was like, man, it must be freezing in there. and he's got the dreads and he plays that song with you guys and that went viral like not only the entire the entire like live recording but that recording of that specific sign >> man it goes viral and it's it shows the power and the gravitational pool of an artist like uh Brian who's been doing this uh with K for 30 years >> but at the same time it did bring up questions for people like hey is does Head take this Christ stuff seriously or doesn't he because it makes sense that he does the holy name stuff, but what about the stuff that Korn's singing about? You know, cuz >> Brian to a degree has to answer for the lyrics that Jonathan writes and performs, right? And and so so it kind of brought all that up. But I'm just curious like how did he get connected to to coming in to to do that part, you know, because that's not a small thing. This is a guy that's been with a record label for a long time. He can't just donate his his his guitar. >> He had no business doing it. I mean, if I can be honest with you, he's a dear friend [clears throat] of ours. like he's a personal friend and we've done even like outside of this like we've done business together like we've invested in projects together and we're actually co- co-investors in a company out here in Utah together like we we've done a bunch of things together as people but to be honest with you Kica >> from like right around the time 20 2015 to 2016 was when Chrissy Green and me were first um connected with the problem called human trafficking, right? And we were contacted by a teenage kid that needed help. And that year of going through that process of trying to help this kid marked us from that point forward. So when we started the the run against traffic charity work that we do to try to like fund raise for counter trafficking, we've already been really marked by a lot of like pain and trauma in this horrific kind of world and story. 2018 marked sort of the 2017 to 2018 marked a whole lot of changes happening in our faith. We were connected to a ministry and a a Bible school I taught at and it was being led by a a covert narcissist that was grooming women on his staff. We had to shut the school down. And so I watched, you know, failure, failure, I just was watching a lot of pain. [clears throat] My brother Connor passed away really suddenly in May of 2018, just after the Sleeping Giant re final show. He came out for that. That was the last time I got to hang out with both of my brothers and then he died a few months later. It was really sudden. Then Chrissy and I went through four miscarriages over the next year and a half. So I was and her mom died of cancer during that. My uncle died the same weekend. Like we just we just got slammed for a period of time. And a lot of my uh framework theologically was falling apart. And so I was really struggling and and Brian's been a friend like for a a while. And so when we were going through a lot of this stuff, he was a dude I would call to pray for us cuz I'd just be like, I know you pray. I know you care about us and right now I don't know how to hold some of these things in prayer. Um would you just be praying for our baby because we had a miscarriage and then we got pregnant and then my son was uh 18 weeks and we lost him. And I I've got video of him being fine and then a week later he's he's gone. And I'm like, it it messed me up um big time because I felt like it was it was almost anyways I was connected and and that was so painful. We get pregnant again four, five, six months later and I called Brian. I was like, "Bro, we're pregnant again and praise God, but like we are still healing and someone needs to be able to pray for this baby. Like can you pray?" And so I had a couple friends that were outside of our world that I just be like, "Please intercede for our family." like you know so he was very connected and so as this is all happening I start creating music and when he'd come to Utah to hang out with me I would just show him some of the stuff from time to time and he would be like dude this is incredible like I he wanted to sing on meet somewhere quiet that's why he came to Chicago that's what I thought he wanted to sing the be with you like he wanted to do that you know like and I was like yes so he gets there and he's so like wild that he's like so am I playing guitar or What? And I was like, "You're here to sing? What are you talking about?" He's like, "No, dude. I'm going to play guitar. I don't want to sing." And I was like, "Okay." So, he ended up playing guitar and falling knees, but it was like he had been a big champion of Holy Name the whole time. Every time he'd come out, he'd be like, "Bro, do you make a new music?" And he was just trying to encourage us. Like, he was just so kind to us personally, believing for me and Chrissy Green. He like loves Chrissy Green. And just he's just a friend, right? So he was like he'd come out if we meet people he's like if you read Tommy's new stuff dude it's awesome and he'd like put it on put it on and he would he just loved the music too. And so um when I told everybody I was like I'd love for you guys to come out you know I'm basically filming the one and only time that I know Holy Name's going to do anything because I didn't we didn't have big aspirations for any of this stuff. Like it was just like I wanted to put it out there and I wanted people to be able to see it but I can't go on the road. I'm not we're not doing that. So, I called everybody and said, "If you can make it to Chicago, we've got this plan." And I didn't really know if it was going to work or not. I wasn't really sure who all was going to be there. And so, he showed up and it was just like I was so grateful. And then he threw the curveball at me of like, "No, I'm not singing. I want to play guitar." So, then we basically took him in they took him in the back and basically he learned it in 30 minutes and then came back out. So, he's just a boss, right? So, it was just one of those things where like he just showed up to be a friend to me and he had been a big supporter of the project up to that point. And he just that's what he does for his friends. That's how he is for people. He'll show up for people randomly, especially if they're going through a hard time. He'll show up and be like he's just really cool at that. He's very very skilled at [clears throat] >> he he's like me and that we're both kind of circuses, but there's a level of depth to this dude because of who he is and what God's done in his life and all this stuff. And so he's a very very good friend to me and to Chris. And so anyways, that's how that happened. That's how he showed up. >> Hey guys, real quick. I just wanted to remind you that we have an official Undaunted Life store. You can go to shop.undaunted.life or check it out in the show notes. Guys, we're always going to have hats and shirts and a bunch of other awesome stuff. Go there, support us, wear the mission. Again, it's shop.uned.life. Check out the link in the show notes. shop.undaunted.life. Well, and first of all, I think men are especially bad about uh flying over this, but I'm so sorry about your uh the miscarriages. >> Um yeah, you know, my wife and I, >> we have four kids, but only two of them are here. Um [clears throat] you know, we lost our first two babies and uh >> wasn't expecting to go here, but um after the first one, you're kind of told uh hey, [clears throat] you know, one in five first pregnancies, you know, they end up like this. it's no big deal. And you're like, okay, well, >> but then the second one, >> it's like, >> wait a minute, that was a that was a human being made in the image of God from the moment of conception. >> And where are they now? And how does that work into whether or not they're elect? And you know, where am I going to ever meet this baby? Was it a boy? Was it a girl? >> And men just don't talk about it, right? Because you got to focus on the woman and make sure the woman is squared away. And that is a good, honest, righteous thing. But then everyone forgets about dad to where like, hey, how's this affecting dad? You know, that's his progeny. That's the arrow. He tried to shoot in the next generation, but it was extinguished before he could even get it out of his quiver. And we don't know why. And there are a lot of men even in this audience that you've lost babies, >> you know, [snorts] maybe unexplained, you know, infertility on your side or her side or both of you. And I just want to say I think as men, you know, I'm I put I was put on this planet to equip men to push back darkness. And you can't do that if you ignore it. And uh you can't do that if you ignore uh even the dark things and thoughts in your own soul that you leave unmentioned because you don't feel like anyone's going to take you seriously or you don't want to come off seeming like a puss or like you're weak or that you can't handle it. And so I did just want to acknowledge that um right there. But um to kind of yank the wheel back to the left and get it back on the highway. >> I know a lot of people that that love Holy Name >> that you know they know y'all aren't touring. They know that's not really going to be a thing. You you can do a show here or there kind of a deal. >> But there are people that are wondering like, "Hey, are we going to get another LP?" Right? So we've we've gotten, you know, we've got the LP, we got the the [snorts] >> you know, the EP. We're kind of in this new world of singles, right? So no one releases albums anymore. you 15 singles until it's my favorite. I love >> I'm still getting used to it. I'm still getting used to it. >> Awesome. >> But for the future of Holy Name, uh like it is >> we're we're writing right now. Like we really are. So [snorts] Sleeping Giant and like doing the reunion shows that we did a month ago. The last five, six months, that's been a huge project. Um and it took a lot of time and energy. I had to like I met with a vocal coach trying to figure out how to like scream again because I can't I'm not like Ryan Clark or like some of these other bosses that are like good at scream. Like I just screamed because I meant it, not cuz I was like good at it. And so anyway, so I I do um I met with him just to be like I I haven't screamed like sleeping giant scream for eight years. >> Can you help me? Because I if I do that I lose my singing voice. Like I just do. It's just gone. And so, um, I had to kind of commit to try to figure it out. And so, anyways, did the Sleeping Giant shows, uh, a month ago, and that was awesome. And then, uh, Holy Name is doing two shows in Anaheim at the House of Blues with Fly Leaf like next week. So, we're doing two dates there in Southern California, which is cool. But, yeah, me and Joey have been putting together songs and uh, pre-producing stuff with Ryan, who's down in Oklahoma. And um anyways, yeah, my my heart is to do something similar to what we did before where and I'm just saying this just to let people in on the process, like I really like as a performer being able to put out only the songs that I actually like. And what tends to happen when you're committed to a record is you end up putting out songs you're never going to play, that you're not 100% on, that no one's ever going to hear live. They're almost like filler songs on records and you never touch them. I'm not interested in that. that's like a waste of time to me and I only want to respond and do the stuff that I'm like that's that's a good one. So, the reason that EP happened is because we right in the middle of trying to put a bigger thing together, we had these couple things show up and I was like that's good and that's good. That's awesome. And Blood was a song that Joey wrote by himself years ago and that was like his song and I was like, "Hey, that's an amazing song and I can hear like Lacy from Fly Leaf or like I can hear a female lead on that song. Like that's like that's a killer song, Joe." And he was like, "No, like it's okay, like whatever." And then eventually I wore him down and I was like, "Can I sing on that song? That song's awesome." And he was like, "I don't know. Like it's really it's his song, you know, and I was like just give me a shot." So anyway, so that's why that happened. But my heart for this next project is we will do something similar where we will begin putting out singles because because I want to make sure I'm putting out the stuff that I really enjoy. And I can't do that if I'm worried about writing nine other things in the next two weeks or we don't have a project or whatever. So we'll be doing that. We've got we've got a handful of songs right now that we're working on and then I've got stuff in the pipe. So I really love Holy Name. I really really love Holy Name. I hope to make it awesome and keep making it even better and better and and so yes, there is >> Well, if you need a sounding board, if you need a sounding board on the new tracks, you just send them over. I'll give you my honest feedback. Uh I'm nothing if not incredibly honest. I mean, we've gone everywhere in this conversation. Like, we've laughed, we've cried, we've all the things, but as we wind to a close here cuz we're we're already way past time and all that. I want to do some lightning round questions and some of them are going to make you uncomfortable, so just deal with it. Okay. So, all right. But the first one, I want you to give me your metal band. And you could spread metal out as far as you want to go. Your metal band, Mount Rushmore. So, these are your top four, right? They're not necessarily the top four best or your top four favorite, but if you had to put four metal bands up on Mount Rushmore, who would be on it? Now, I'm going to give you a second to think about it. I'll give you my list, and I kind of even cheated on my list. I hate when people change it, but it's like, okay, Metallica, you know, they've done it for forever. I'm going to go see them at Sphere in Vegas in November as part of my 40th birthday. Like, you know, crazy, right? >> Crazy. >> Even though Meet Your Heroes, uh, just from disc one all the way through their latest stuff, Zo, I just I it's hard to describe how good and unique Dan's voices in that band, you know, August Burns Red in terms of metal core. Like everyone talks about how Kill Switch Engage carried metal core. Aley dying carried metal core. The most consistent metal core band maybe ever is August Burns Red. And then it's like a running gun battle for me between Holy Name for today, Every Time I Die, and Impending Doom. And so I'm just going to let y'all figure it out. I'm going to let y'all do your own little Hunger Games thing to to figure out who gets that final spot. But if I was forced to to kind of have my list, that would be my list. You know, it's it's more than four, but hey, it's my show. I get to do what I want. So, I uh wasted some time for you to get there. Whatever way you want to do it. Give us your four bands on your metal Mount Rushmore. >> I'll just go and I'll go chronologically just to try to like put it >> make it easy. Let's go. >> Okay. So, um Black Sabbath >> would be number one. Like it's >> No, this is just metal in general. I mean, they invented the genre. So, >> I would say Black Sabbath. Um, and then I would say for for me, um, metal band would be or like whatever, Black Sabbath gosh, Dead Kennedy's. Okay. >> And then I would say at the Gates and then I would say Here. >> Oh, okay. You got some New England hardcore. >> The first three the first three hate breed records like the >> Anyways, they they did a hate breed neglect split they did like but anyways the fir if I just had hate from their inception >> to Perseverance just that era. I think if if an alien came down from somewhere else and said, "I need to know what hardcore is from like the eight 70s and 80s influence all the way to current day. Give me one band that carries kind of all of those influences but like distills them down." >> I think it's Hate Breed Satisfaction is the death of desire. I think that set the standard for what everybody has like been doing for the last 25 years. My my extra credit little addition would be Blood has Been Shed, which is like one of my favorite New England bands, but that's that's basically some of the members of Kill Switch Engage before they were in Killsw Switch Engage. So Howard and their drummer are both in Killsw switch or were in Killsw switch but Blood has been shed is like >> very unique time signatures, super talented, heavier than everybody, super [inaudible] and I think kind of Christian sometimes. So that's like my So but I would say probably Black Sabbath, Dead Kennedy's At the Gates because I think they're they're just to me the most beautiful. They're so beautiful to listen to. And then hate breed more more so than like a a Weezer or a Madball. I got to just say like a hate breed, dude. Hate. >> Okay, let's go with it. Hey, I love the Perseverance record. You know, I had my two 12-in uh you know, subwoofers in the back of my car riding around lot in Oklahoma blasting some hate breed. Okay, so that was your band Mount Rushmore. >> Sure. >> Now, let's go frontman Mount Rushmore. So these are the leads of and so whether they play an instrument or not or whatever and I didn't really think about what my list would be but if you had to do a frontman metal and it could be some of the bands from some of the bands that you just mentioned but for whatever reason give us your four top front men in metal history for you and this isn't because you're trying to make the people of Rolling Stone happy. This is for Tommy. >> No no best frontmen. Four frontmen. Um, Louisie Armstrong, uh, Jimmyi Hendris >> for me, um, Chino from Death Tones. Incredible. >> Yeah. >> Um, >> my favorite frontman, who's someone that I was just like terrified of. [laughter] That's a great way to think about it, dude. You know what? Actually, just for for hardcore stuff, I'm going to say Freddy Madball. Freddy Madball. He's incredible. Been around for a long time. That's sick. So, there you go. >> Okay. If you had to delete every album you've ever made and only one could remain, [clears throat] which album would it be? That's Sleeping Giant. Holy Name. Anything you've been a part of. If you had to delete every album and only have one left, which one are you leaving for humanity? Bro, that's a really good question. >> That's why I asked I like out of all the little digital books that I've been a part of, what's the one I would leave? >> Yep. Everything else gets deleted for human history, you get to leave one. >> The holy name full length. >> Okay. That's what I figured you would say. >> I I just It's It feels like a a mature version of a lot of the stuff we're reaching for in Sleeping Giant. it. I I don't know, man. Yeah, that's my f It's my favorite thing I've It's my favorite thing that I have done in that in that world. I'm I'm so grateful for all the stuff, but like, man, I really really love that project. I really love it. I don't know. That's the guy. >> Okay, last question of the day, Tommy. We've been everywhere, but we've all come down to this one moment, and I think you know where I'm going to go with this. >> Okay, >> we have to delete every song you've ever made, >> except one. >> Every song except one. You get to leave one song for humanity that represents Tommy Green. What's the song? Meet me somewhere quiet. >> Okay. Of everything you've ever done, THAT'S THE ONE. >> EVERYTHING. IT WAS LIKE THIS IS THE time capsule. >> If I, you know, visual time capsule would be the fall on your knees video. That would be the thing that's like here's this guy. this is what he was about. Look at his weirdo world with all of his crazy friends. That's cool. But in terms of like what am I really trying to say? The whole whole reason for the whole reason for my existence is Christ. So that's about as close as I can get, man. >> All right. Well, Tommy, we went way longer than I thought we would, but we were on a roll there for a little bit. But hey, we've talked about a bunch of different things. That's all for me. Is there anything else you want to get off your chest? I would just say to anybody that watches this, I would really love it if uh the what I'd love to say is just that um one of the primary things that Chrissy Green and me are committed to is um establishing and building support for the the survivors of human trafficking in America. So, please check out againststraindustries.com if you're not already committed to giving to somebody that's doing um advocacy, education, and prevention, long and short-term afterare for people that are coming out of it. If you're not already committed in the space, we'd love for you to consider um supporting, donating, following along, becoming a part of our community. So, um, against trafficindustries.com and Chrissy Green wrote a beautiful book called Many More Like Me, which is the story of how we got involved in it in the first place. So, husbands and wives, it's a heartbreaker, but it's beautiful. So, thank you. >> All right, guys. We'll make sure all that stuff is in the show notes, but Tommy, I doubt this is the last time that we're going to talk here on screen. So, >> we'll run it back. Come on, let's go. >> All right. Sounds good, man. Thanks again. >> Thank you. >> There you go, guys. I hope you enjoyed my time with Tommy Green. But before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost at Undaunted Life. Our mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. So, I've got Tommy's Instagram here so you can be connected with all the things he's talking about. And then there at the end, the Against Traffic Industries, I've got that website here. Guys, make sure you go on and support his mission and all the things that he's doing. Thank you everyone for listening to this episode. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive fivestar review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@undded.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook. And check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming. www.undaunted.life. The music on this podcast is the song Conqueror by the Christian metal band Void Awaken. Be sure to stream their music on Spotify, Apple Music, and wherever else you get your music. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the Lion of Judah. [music]