Let's be honest, most men drift. We wake up, we scroll, we work, and then we just rinse and repeat. And we know we're softer than we should be. That's why I built the 31-day resilience reset. This is not a devotional. It is a field manual for men ready to stop drifting and start fighting back. So, for 31 days, you'll train your spirit, mind, and body with scripture, prayer, and daily challenges that forge real resilience. Go to www.undaunted.life/31. life/31day to download this resource for free. That's undaunted.life/31day. Start your reset today. [music] This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. Tom Rener. I'm not even going to do my normal intro or outro where I let everybody know who you are cuz this is your third appearance on the show. Everybody knows and everybody's thinking hockey right now because we're living in a time period where the United States of America. We are the gold medal winners. We own the Canadians. Okay. That's their only sport. It's like our fifth favorite sport. And yet we are the gold medalist. So we're thinking we're thinking hat-ticks. We're thinking hat-ticks right now. This is your hat-tick performance. Are you excited? Because I am. >> I am excited. I guess it's hat-trick for the hockey team because women's won goal, men won goal, and there's something else wait on the horizon to win gold. But hey, I'm not I'm not going to weigh too heavily on our Canadian audience. That is our second best country of the show and all that and we understand. But guys, guess what? You still have Mounties and maple syrup and a lot of snow. So, it's not like you got nothing out of this deal. You just don't have a gold medal. You got that cute little second place medal. Look at you guys. Good for you. >> Oh, you're terrible. You're terrible. >> I'm trying my best. I'm trying my absolute best. They live in a communist hell hole up there, so I'm just trying to make them feel uh as good as possible about their decision making. I've got friends in Alberta and they have similar sentiments. >> Well, I Hey, when we get emails from people, it is funny. The Canadians will let me know. They're like, "Kyle, you know, we're not all like that." I'm like, "Yeah, but it's way more fun to be pjorative, right?" That's like, it's way more fun to just assume y'all are all the exact same kind of person. But we love our Canadians, don't we, Tom? >> We love them all. >> As much as it's possible to love a Canadian, it's like loving a stepchild. It's like you kind of love them, but not really. I'm kidding, guys. I'm kidding. I think all of us are stepchildren in some way or another. But yes, this is your third appearance on the show. And the reason is is cuz you just won't stop writing books, Tom. Every single year I'm getting an email saying, "Hey, here's another book. Here's another book." How do you do it? How do you keep writing stuff? How do you keep having stuff to say? >> Well, first of all, I am not the brightest bulb in the chandelier. I'll tell you that. And that is not a self-facing comment. That is a reality. What I am able to do is I have connection with about a quarter of a million churches. Now, that's a big number. But in terms of churches that contact our organization, churches that want information and we do consultations and we listen and we coach. Here's the bottom line, Kyle. I'm listening to the churches and the churches are giving me the material. I'm listening to leaders and they're giving me the material. I am not this writing machine in the sense of I'm always coming up with ideas. I'm getting ideas and in some senses I'm stealing them because they weren't originally mine, but I amalgamate them together. And one book after another comes because God's doing some great work in churches. There are messed up churches. But God is doing some great work in churches. And I'm able to be the reporter, if you will, for that. So, you can't give me any credit. I mean, I don't even know how many books I've written. Maybe 45, but who counts. And when it's [laughter] when it's all when it's all said and done, it has been because others have invested in me and I've listened to them and I've learned a lot. Well, now Tom, I mean, even all kidding aside, you're the founder and CEO of Church Answers. Implicit in the name is that you got some, right? You got some answers. And so, obviously, you spent some time, and we've talked about this on your previous appearances on the show, guys. Go check out episodes 520 and episode 402. Hey, we're almost at episode 900, right? So, we we've been we've been doing quite a bit. We've been doing quite a bit since you were last on the show. But, I mean, you you do have answers, though, because you have your own anecdotal experience as a pastor, right? you have your own experience of sitting there not knowing exactly how you're going to lead the flock that week, whether it's through a sermon or or through uh some sort of ministry or pastoral work you're doing like in a home or at a hospital bed, but you're figuring it out. And now you're in this position where you do have a bevy of people from a bunch of different denominations, a bunch of different sizes of churches, and you're able to take all that information on the front end of the machine and on the back end of the machine, you have something that is at least vaguely helpful in one way or another. >> The best compliment I've gotten on my books in a long time is vaguely. >> Tom, hey, but think about it. Think about it. That's how I approach this show. I I never think this is the interview that's going to change everything about everything for every man. This is the subject matter, the philosophy that I'm going to, you know, dig into and extrapolate out that's going to change everything about everything. But the Lord works even through knuckleheads like me. He's drawing straight lines with crooked sticks. And there are men that have accepted Christ because of things that they've heard on this show. There are men that have rededicated their life that they got weward at some point. They got they got off on their sanctification journey. They hit the big pause button and now they're ready to hit the play button and they're ready to run again. Y'all do the same thing with church answers. I know it it's it's a burden for me that I carry, but I just try to take the next right step and I try to let the word of God be a lamp unto my feet because we're not guaranteed the flood light. How do you keep making sure that that you you keep the heading correct? I guess. >> Well, I did not mention to you I don't think in the previous two interviews I have three other sources and then I'll get directly to your question. Yeah, those three other sources happen to be my three sons and they're all pastors and I my my sons will call me or text me every single day. Sometimes it's for advice, sometimes it's to give advice, sometimes it's just to have a son dad conversation. And I am learning so much from them. All three of them are far better pastors than I ever was. Now, let's let's talk about the the the bumpers that keep me where I think I should be. First of all, I have to be a man of prayer. If I'm not a man of prayer, I am not listening to God. I also have to be a man of the word. Um, I'm one of these guys who wake up in the morning and I have a thousand ideas. The difference between me and Kyle Thompson is I have a thousand ideas and you have 50,000 ideas. [laughter] But I I try to do my 10,000 ideas, but I wake up and I I I'll admit to you, Kyle, I do not start thinking about, okay, it's time to listen to God. that's to my detriment. So, the habit, one of the habits I've gotten into is I read a psalm or a portion of a psalm. I do that before anything else. I get my mind focused on the things that are right and good and pure and lovely. And so, that has kept me on the path and that has kept me in a prayer prayer life that has allowed me to not necessarily have an hour in prayer. I remember the late Adrien Rogers told me one time, I said, "Tell me about your prayer life." He said, "It's not long, but it's a lot of them." So he prays a lot during the day and the that that is me. I cannot stay focused. Uh I I wish I could I wish I was such an in-depth prayer warrior that I prayer warrior that I was just listening. And then to top it all off the the listening to God through the word, listening to God through prayer. My daily prayer is this. I miss it sometime, but most of the time, God, allow me this day to come in touch with someone who I may share the love of Christ. Period. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> You talk about answered prayer. Yesterday, I was in an Uber with a Muslim and my question is always, "Hey, you got a church [clears throat] home here?" "Oh, I'm Muslim." Open the door. No, he didn't fall on his face, repent of his sins, and became a follower of Christ. But he did hear about Christ, I hope, in a clear way. You ask me a question. I've taken it pretty long. But th those those are the things those those are my guard rails, if you will, to keep me focused. Then with that, I can start listening. I can start listening to the church and try to distill what the what others need to hear. Now, here's another thing. In the course of a day, we will have dozens upon dozens of contacts, emails, other means of contact, comments in our in our community. And uh I'll hear the pain points from church leaders, particularly pastors, but not just not just just them. And like your audience, Kyle, our audience is uh maybe not as high as as high a percentage of males as yours, but it's a high percentage. And so I get to hear from them as well and I get to hear their pain points. Those are the type things that keep me focused. Now, have you noticed that I haven't said anything about my intellect, my wisdom, none of that. It has been listening to God, and then it's listening to God's people. Simple as that. >> Well, you can either think you're the conduit or the point. And I I think if you start thinking you're the point, it becomes an issue. But I do actually want to double click on something you said about the Psalms. So, I was doing uh I have a coaching program called Dominion where I'm coaching individual men and trying to equip them to push back darkness. And I was talking to a guy who's like, "Man, I kind of struggle with prayer." And you know, you obviously have to ask follow-up questions like, "What do you mean by that?" But then like it just hit me and I grabbed a Bible off the shelf and I go, "Hey, if you just open the Bible and flip somewhere to the middle, you're probably going to land in the Psalms." Like, if you just flip somewhere in the middle and then guess what? So, I just flip my Bible open. Here's Psalm 60. And I want you to just sit there and I want you to read that psalm out loud and that will become your prayer for the day. Now, here's the thing. You might be experiencing a time of plenty and here you are reading a psalm of lament. But if we know anything about Psalm 23, it's not that God delivers us out of the valley. It's that he's in the valley of the shadow of death with us, which also implies we're either in the valley, about to come out of the valley, or about to go into the valley. So, we're all about to enter those moments. And so, having those psalms of lament somewhere in your psyche, somewhere on your heart is going to be helpful. And let's say you are like let's say it's just a psalm of praise and you're in the valley of the shadow of death. You're telling me that ain't going to be helpful to you. So that's one way to utilize the psalms. But also, you know, you you bring up your sons there. You know, for me, I have a 5-year-old and a three-year-old, two sons, and you know that that's those are my arrows that I'm shooting into the next generation. >> But I I became obsessed with this idea. So, um, and I'm I'm putting you on the spot, but nobody knows. Do you know who Philip II was? >> No, I don't. >> Okay. Most people don't. And if I were to say Philip II of Macedon, does that unlock anything for you? >> You're going to keep on embarrassing me. No. >> Well, yeah. I'm going to embarrass the entire of humanity because there's about four people I know that can answer that question. But I bet you, Tom, I bet you Philip of Macedon thought he was the point, but he wasn't. But we all know his son's name, Alexander the Great. >> Okay. >> Oh, wow. >> And so you think you're the point. You're running this kingdom. You're the man. You're the of the walk. And then all of a sudden, you realize, oh man, it's not about me. It's about my son. That's how I'm approaching Undaunted Life. That's how I approach this interview. That's how I approach everything that I do with Undaunted Life is maybe I'm not the point. Maybe all this is a setup for James. Maybe all this is a setup for Elijah. Uh maybe this is all just part of the setup for them. Like Billy Graham, obviously probably the most well-known evangelist of all time. Most people don't know his dad's name, but I bet you at some point in his dad's life, Mr. Graham thought he was the point. And it's like, well, no, you were actually just the guy clearing the path for Billy. And so that's just a way for us all to to kind of approach that. But even as you as you talk to your sons, I I want to kind of know, everyone likes likes long-term trends. I was like, "Okay, what have things been you like since the '7s or like since the early 2000s?" But I just want to know from your experience and even talking to your sons. What have things been like since September the 10th of 2025? Because on September the 10th of 2025, Charlie Kirk was assassinated in front of a crowd of thousands of people and in front of the entire world on the internet. And I feel like something broke in the body politic at that point. But then also there are atheist sociologists that are assuming that the Sunday after he was murdered, he was murdered on a Wednesday, the Sunday after he was assassinated and martyed may have been the highest Christian church attendance in the history of the globe. right in the history of the planet in recorded history. And a lot of these people st they stuck with it. They they kept going to church. They kept trying to find answers or whatever part of the journey that they're on. From y'all's perspective with the connections to the hundreds of thousands of churches you have connections to. Have you seen a shift or a change just since last September? >> The answer simply is yes. And the yes is a big spike. We were not able to measure it quantitatively. So I will go with the information you have from the sociologist that it probably was one of the highest ever. So the question the the answer to your question right away is yes. What has happened since then? >> It is not at that peak anymore but it has not gone down to where it was >> and it there is a new if if you can call if you can call participating in the life of the church normal. There is a new normal. And guess who is primarily the leaders of this? Men. >> Young men. >> For many, many, many years, we would never hear men being the point, if you will, of going to church or going back to church. Now, this this renewal, revival, whatever the best terminology is, it is real. It is not as high as it was, but is certainly sustained. And I think that it's going to be more sustained and then growing again in the days ahead. >> Well, I think it's important to understand it's okay to be excited that, you know, Bible sales are through the roof. Highest they've ever been great. All all the people that make Bibles, they're they're making a bunch of money. Great. I'm I'm all for that. You've got young men. There's never been in all the different cohorts of the population a more religious and more politically conservative cohort than Gen Z men, surprisingly. But at the same time, we've never seen a more liberal uh and more atheistic cohort than Gen Z women, right? That's the products of four waves of feminism. That's the products of of a a million different things that you could look to. And so, there's a looming catastrophe. And I don't mean just from a replacement rate, birth rate standpoint. I mean, there's going to be a lot of God-honoring young men, some of which I know. They're looking around for a young lady that wants to be a helpmate uh made fit for him and, you know, wants to grow a family and, you know, be under his headship and all that. And they're looking around and it's a bunch of women that just want to to find a way to get another pants suit or a second apartment in Miami or get that that extra purse or that that sports car or something like that. And so there's this growing inongruity. And Tom, I just got to tell you, when I try to give an answer or some sort of a hermeneutic to explain that, I'm kind of left with very little. Like I do tell these men, hey, you're not going to find a godly woman probably on a dating app or a club. You're probably going to find her at church on a Wednesday or a Sunday. That like that kind of thing. And I I keep telling these guys like, "Hey, find some older, mature women that can help you in your search. They would love to play Cupid, right? And there's going to be this cute little girl that you didn't even know existed, and she loves Jesus, and you love Jesus, and maybe you get connected, and there's wedding bells in your future." But that's one of those things that I I I struggle with an answer, and I'm wondering if you have a better one. anecdotally and ancillary. Let me do the ancillary first. Ancillary to your comment right there, Kyle. Uh the live birth rate is one of the things that is scaring me the most. Some of it, of course, is uh the abortion issue, but most of it is these young people do not want to have children. >> These ladies do not want to have children. And so they are staying away from marriage uh presuming that it's going to lead to motherhood or in some cases fatherhood. I have in the many years that I have been alive being a baby boomer and being at the peak of live birth rates myself I have never seen anything like this. But I will say this, there are a lot of hidden jewels in churches today. Some of them are men, some of them are women. Okay? I'm not encouraging you guys who are listening or watching this podcast to start going to church for the self- serving reason of finding your mate. Although you might for just a little bit. You might consider that that's the best place to find find one. I can tell you this. Every time we do a consultation and every time we interview pastors and others, somehow the conversation comes up about a few of the godly women that they wish could find some godly men. They are there. They may not be in the great numbers that would make them evident to a lot of people, but uh that ancillary benefit of being in church and then you're going to see the godly people, not the perfect people, I think is real. And I I just I just encourage our men to find that person in the context of where God's people are gathered. >> What I would tell them also, don't settle because I know some young ladies that are looking for that godly man to lead them and all those types of things, but the temptation is to settle. The temptation is to stay in a relationship with somebody who's a project, right? So, you're missionary dating. Maybe I can save him. I see his potential. Like, I see stuff that no one else can see. And that very rarely has a positive outcome. And then also, same thing for men. Don't settle. Like, some of the men that I've counseledled and tried to help, it's like, look, you need to have really awkward conversations in those first couple of dates because you don't want to be dating someone for months, if not years, before you have a conversation like, "Do you want to have kids? Do you want to work or do you want to stay home? Where do you want to live? What kind of a lifestyle do you want? Do you care about retirement? Do you have boatloads of debt because you made a bunch of stupid decisions about your education and your buying habits? Have those conversations immediately cuz guess what? A young lady that is turned off by the idea of talking about her future family, that's probably not a lady with a perspective that you want to be dating for very long. Save your money, save your time, and don't invest it in somebody that's a sinkhole. And the same thing for it goes for for uh for both sides. Is that that would just be my encouragement? I mean, would you echo that or would you give something a little bit different? >> I would echo that. [clears throat] I got to tell you that uh uh my all three of my sons told me that they implicitly brought girls by that they were dating to see what dad said. >> I never said no or yes. They said, "But you have the most obvious body language of anybody on earth." So we could we we know right away. And uh they they said we ended up dad saying no to several and there were different reasons. Why just you? But we ended up saying no because we wanted to know, Dad, what you thought. You you got a grand slam with your wife, our mother. And so we we want to find out, can we do that with ours? And guess what? Every one of them. I mean, you talk about the the cliche of outkicking your coverage. They they did that with every one of them. And now I have loving grandkids and they're being raised in that godly home. So yeah, I echo it and I can just say there's a lot of possibility out there. >> Hey guys, real quick. So I remember back in high school I was training with these guys and they all got super jacked. But they were training and using these supplements that they were buying online and a lot of them had crazy side effects. These were not good things. There's no telling what all was in these supplements. And so I've always kind of been scared about what supplements I'm going to put in my body. And I decided when I do start taking supplements, I want to make sure I'm using products that are certifiably clean and also using only high quality ingredients. And that's why I want to remind you guys that I have started taking and that we are partnered with Jaco Fuel. So Joo Fuel is Jaco Willink's Americanbased supplement company. So what are they known for and what are some of my favorite products that they make? They make a lot of whey protein powder. 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Guys, if you take your health and wellness seriously, then you simply cannot afford to put cheap and inconsistent and dirty supplements inside your body. Try Jof Fuel out today by going to joofuel.com. That's jofuel.com. Use the promo code undaunted to get 10% off your order. Again, that's jofuel.com. promo code undaunted to get 10% off your order. All right, very good. Well, let's actually uh get into the meat of the discussion today because we do need to talk about your newest book. It's called Crucial Commitments: Five Simple Decisions That Members of Healthy and Growing Churches Make. This is a church answers resource. I want to read a quote from the book as it provides the central theme. Here is the central theme of this book. Your best hope for finding significance and purpose in life is through your local church. members who live out that purpose in their local church will lead a transformation in the congregation. So Tom, why this book? Why now? Why you? >> This book was written as a pinnacle. Not I don't know what my life expectancy is, but I do read mortality tables and and I do know it's closer than it has been. [laughter] I guess that's true. I guess that's true for everybody. And this is not my farewell address. I'll continue to write books, but I wanted to summarize the heart of what I think the New Testament is all about. And the New Testament is all about Jesus, the work of the Holy Spirit in the context of a local church. From Acts 2 to Revelation 3, that entire swath of the New Testament is either about the local church, written to the local church, written to a local church leader, or written in the context of the local church. We, the church, are God's plan. A for when Jesus ascended and left us his spirit. We're his plan A for the mission on earth. And he did not leave us a plan B. It's what God left. It's imperfect because it's a bunch of messed up people like Tom Rener and it's a bunch of messed up churches, but it is it is what God left us. And if we're going to make a difference, Cal, yeah, you can play Lone Ranger Christianity. It's just not biblical. Uh, you know, the the cliche is Jesus and I get get along just fine by ourselves. No, you don't. You don't get along just fine by yourselves. You get along fine with Jesus in the context of other believers. Oh, you know where two or more are gathered. No, no. That's not a passage about that you can go off and pray with someone and that is your church. That's that just means the power of the Holy Spirit is working because y'all are agreeing together. There is no reason for us not to be in a local church, including you're going to find up some you're going to find some messed up local churches. And unless it is a major doctrinal aberration, you're going to need to stick with those churches. >> Well, I think for a lot of people, it's like, well, it sounds like Jesus is more like your homeboy and not your Lord. Because if he's your homeboy, then you just take the pieces you like and you, you know, you run with those. You just ignore all the pnicity passages. But if he's your Lord, if he said it, you just kind of have to do it, right? Because that's what it means to to be a disciple. But let's even talk a little bit more about the, you know, kind of the the search for the perfect church while only finding imperfect churches. So here's a quote from the book. I mentioned these things as a simple reminder. You will never find a perfect church. Indeed, you will find many highly imperfect churches like the one in Corinth. But Paul never gave up on the local church. To the contrary, he exhorted and encouraged the members to make the church better. How were the Corinthians to make their congregation better? And then you've said Paul gives us an answer with two major themes. Theme one finding meaning in serving and theme two finding meaning by practicing biblical love. So I guess Tom the the question would be okay so operating as if the a perfect church is impossible to find. You know that would be a good start but then how would you know finding meaning by serving and finding meaning by practicing biblical love help you as you serve your local body of believers? We are wired as creatures that God has created. We are wired to be at our best when we are looking beyond ourselves. When we are looking at our own self-centered needs, our own desires, our own wants. God has not wired us that way. And therefore, we are not having a purpose in our lives. The local church is what God gave us to serve others. Here's my story, Cal. And uh it rain me back in if I if I if I go down too many of these rabbit rabbit holes. So um here here's my story. I pastored four churches. Then I went to be dean of a seminary for 12 years. During that time I was interim pastor of 11 churches. Then I went to be president of Lifeway for 12 years. During that time I spoke in a different pullpit almost every Sunday mainly to the constituents that we were serving. So I went through that entire period of four churches as pastor, then interim pastors, then filling pulpits on every week, usually a different one. And what happened to me, this is Tom's story. This is not anybody else's story, nor is it diagnostic or prescriptive, but this is Tom's story. What happened to me was I stopped being a church member. And and maybe some people are called to this itinerate ministry. Maybe some people, yeah, they are no maybe to it. They're But I knew that my heart was to serve the local church and I had not been serving. I made a commitment one day in prayer that I'm not going to preach again on Sundays ever. Now, if God wants to change that, he can. You know what, Kyle? The the kingdom of God did not fall apart when I stopped preaching. It was amazing how everything was just really, really good. So I I told my wife, I said, "I really feel like I just need to be a church member and just serve." And she said, "Timing is good. Our son is starting a church 20 minutes from us." I I knew that. She wasn't telling me something I didn't know. I said, "Yeah, we can we can encourage him and support him." She said, "Oh, I thought you understood what I'm saying. We need to be church members there." So we joined the church. We went through the first membership class. He I asked, "How can I serve the church the most?" He said, 'We don't have a janitorial crew. Can you and mom do that? We did. If you come to the church at Spring Hill on Sunday, the likelihood is, this is not Tom talking about how great he is, but this is how excited I am. You're going to find me in the parking lot waving cars around to find a parking spot. I love serving. My life has been more fulfilled in the last seven or eight years being a church member than anything I've done that may have gotten me a lot of attention and publicity and people said, "Oh, look at there. There's Tom Rener and he does such and such." I am finding such joy in doing the things where I know I get to serve others. I'm teaching a community group which is a Bible study. So my story is this. Yes, that's Tom Rener story. Not everybody has a Tom Rener story, but my my my story is this. You will find that meaning in the local church. When when I wrote crucial commitments, I was saying, "Okay, let's distill this. Let's let's let's don't put a legalistic checklist." Uh yeah, we talk about five things. Five is not an exhaustive list. It may not even be the best list, but let's talk about the starting point. And so what came from my heart to this book was, okay, if you want to find true meaning, you have to love Jesus with all of your heart. You have to love your wife as as as as Christ loved the church. You have to love your family, but you have to love your local church as well. And I don't think many people I think a lot of people aren't seeing that. For some, it's a legalistic checklist. for others it is just it is it is oh I I go to church at my convenience not when I need to not that I need to be serving. So this was theological this was researchbased but it was highly experiential as well. Tom I got to admit though if this interview had a dashboard there's a blinking red light on the dash right now. It's because you've used the same word over and over and it's member. You became a member of the church, which implies membership, which implies that the church actually does that. But whoop, breaking news. A lot of churches don't do membership, right? Because they got on this growth model train at some point. You know, they they went to some some growth classes. They learned how to make a multi-sight church and pay for everything in cash. And, you know, they don't even have an elder board. They have a board of directors, but it's just all their pastor buddies from other churches so that no one can actually kick them out of their own pulpit. So, they've kind of insulated themselves from everything. and they don't do membership and they don't even talk about it. I remember my wife and I years ago, we realized, oh my gosh, we've been eating milk or drinking milk forever, right? We've been drinking milk for 10 years. We were being entertained. We wanted our ears tickled. And like a baby, when you're not being fed milk, you're looking around for the teet. Where did the teat go? And you're looking for someone to feed you. We'll get more into the the feeding here in just a second, but before we get into the other subjects, just flat out membership. And again, most of these large churches, a lot of megaurches you could call them, they don't even do that. There's no standards to be a member. So, what that actually does is it actually aids the whole church shopping phenomenon. So, maybe you go to a congregation for a few months because the pastor's handsome and and funny and they and the the worship even though it's not congregational worship, so you can't hear any other voices, you can only hear the voices that are on stage and there's 17 people with microphones and only 14 of them are turned on. They're not singing a 17p part harmony. what are they doing up there? But you're just sitting there, you're entertained, but then the pastor touches on a subject that's important to you, and you don't really like his opinion on it. I don't really think this is the place for us. And then you start shopping, right? And guess what? If you're not a member, go shop. Who cares? You're not a member of this store over that store. It's just wherever you want to shop today. And so, I think it's such a detrimental thing when a church doesn't do actual membership where there are names and expectations. What say you? >> You have uh just that that last part of you. You describe consumer church to a tea and you you describe consumer Christianity to a tea. >> Let's let's just let's just do something pretty radical. Let's go to the Bible >> and let's let's let's look at 1 Corinthians 12. I'm not going to read it, but let's let's look at the essence of 1 Corinthians 12. It's talking about the parts of the body of Christ. And it's it's metaphors, you know, his feet, his hands, his mouth, his ears. It's it's it's a it's a metaphor. But what does the text say? You are what? Members of the body of Christ and therein. Therefore, this idea of membership didn't come from civic clubs. It didn't come from country clubs. They borrowed it from the church and then bastardized it. It came from the church that a member is a part of something greater and by itself it does not function well but with others it functions beautifully. What follows 1 Corinthians 12? 1 Corinthians 13. That's one of the toughest biblical questions we'll ever get. Chapter 13 follows chapter 12. What is chapter 13? It is the love chapter. What is the love chapter about? Well, you can use it at weddings and you can use it to express your love towards someone. But ultimately, when Paul was writing that, he was writing to Corenth and saying, "Hey, you fighting feuding people, let's talk about membership." And what it really means and what ultimately it means is that you are going to love others. And that is going to be the measurement of not only your commitment to them, your commitment to your church, but your commitment to Jesus as well. That's why first Corinthians 13 is there. It followed 12. And that was no accident. By the way, it went back to 14 and got back to dealing with some of the issues. And so that chapter, those chapters and others as well are reminders that membership is a thoroughly biblical concept. And if you are in a church that says membership is unimportant, and if they really mean it, and I want to be careful, if they really mean it, then you are in a church that is not biblical, it is taking the New Testament and going down a path that is not the right path. >> Well, here's another thing with with the Bible. When you're looking at First Corinthians, this is a letter that Paul wrote to the church in Corinth. Corinth, it's a letter, right? We just got a letter. And then you read the letter, right? If you get a letter, you don't read it in sections. You don't skip to a future a later part in the letter and then read that and then come back and >> Yeah. You don't really proof text it. And so it's like these things were meant to be read at once. They were meant to be read at one time to a specific group. And this was not, you know, to us, but it's for us. And so again, if you only go to the 13th chapter, it seems like it's, you know, pulled out of nowhere. No, it's part of a narrative arc that Paul, who was certifiably a genius, it's a narrative arc that he's trying to take you on. So, it makes sense that he would talk about what he talks about in 12 and then 13 and then into 14. But again, we added chapter and verse, you know, hundreds of years later just so it' be easier to reference. But to even go further into the the concept that I already introduced, and you bring a lot of this up in the new book, guys, it's in the show notes. You should go check it out. Uh the link is there where you can buy it. But it's like, you know, people say the church is wherever God's people are, right? And so it's like, well, I have questions. But then you say, you know, all they ever talk about is money. Even though you know Jesus, if you look at the words of Jesus, all that dude seemed to talk about was money. He seemed to talk about money a lot. You know, the pastor doesn't meet my needs, your everchanging needs depending upon your cycle or or where you're at with your boss or something like that. And then it's the I'm not getting fed part. And the thing the big wakeup call for me, Tom, is my god, are you going to be a baby your entire life looking around for the bottle or the te or are you going to start feeding yourself? Because the thing is is if you're choosing your menu, you're probably not choosing milk every time. Milk's fine every now and then. You're probably going to want some steak. You're probably going to want some potatoes. You're probably going to want to take something that's going to take a little bit of juice for you to digest, right? And stuff that you may have to chew on for a long time. I don't want to take the, you know, the metaphor too far, but yes, you're going to need some times where, hey, I really got to chew on this. I really got to really got to reckon with this. I got to ask some questions or or any of those types of things. But you talk about that as why individual people disengage. Now, are they disengaging just because they're they're slaves to their own desires and perceived needs? Are they disengaging because technically they were never engaged to begin with? What what's your read? >> There's uh you you're talking about two large groups there. One group is what I'd call the consumer Christian. These people are likely believers in Christ, but they're still on the milk and they they have not grown and therefore they do not uh they resist anything that is meaty. They resist any commitment. Then there's another group that uh I would simply call the the lost. Those who are part of a church, but they're not part of Christ. They haven't received Christ. They go to church for different reasons. Both of those groups are in churches in usually in significant numbers. Now what the church needs though and this is not about our need it's about for the body of Christ are people who are truly Christians who are truly committed to the local body and they will then deal with those who are not followers of Christ but still attending church are those who are consumer Christians who are flittering from one church to the next and skipping for a while. One of the stories I tell in the book is about a lady who said she wasn't getting fed. And she she just said, "I was thinking about leaving the church because I just wasn't getting fed." And and she she decided uh all the details can unfold in the book, but she decided that instead of saying, "I need my pastor to do this in the sermon." She started praying consistently before every sermon for some length of time that God would change her heart through the sermon, not that God would change the pastor to preach the right sermon. Someone asked her, someone called her up and said, "Uh, I'm not getting fed." She said, "Well, let me tell you, I used to be that way, too. Let me tell you what happened." That person in that church was was convicted and started doing the same. In that second church, she started telling the story to others. And before you knew it, there were people taking notes. There were people with their eyes open. There were people coming in. And the pastor still did not know what was going on. And so the lady in the second church goes to the pastor and said, "Have you noticed how we are just loving your preaching?" He said, "Yeah, but I don't know what's going on." He told her the story. She told him the story. And she said, "Pastor, we've been praying that God would change us and that the word of God would get in our heart." That pastor, he just started crying. He said, "I've never been in a church where people's hearts were so turned toward God that they were praying for themselves for the sermon instead of saying, "Oh, it went 35 minutes. It was too long. Oh, the temperature went on. Uh, we our church meets in a warehouse." And one of the unfortunate things about it is we haven't quite figured it out. There are times when one of the big fans comes on. We we wish we could turn it off, but there that's another story to itself. And this big fan, it can be pretty loud. And uh our church got blasted on one of the social media channels because of the fan. And and you know, I just I just wanted I didn't respond, but I just wanted to say, hey, you still were able to hear the sermon. The fan was only there for two or three minutes. You survived. God is good. I didn't. But that was a contrast between committed Christianity and consumer Christianity. >> Well, I want to go a little bit further on the consumer Christianity part because you do address church online briefly in the book. And the thing is is I'm pretty sure I attended the church that invented church online, the first ones to actually do that. And you know during things like COVID, that's all people were left with. And look, there are times like where I where I've been traveling for work or when I had surgery. I remember I had two vocal cord surgeries. So, here I am sitting there on a on a Friday and I've got this huge gash on my neck and I you can barely move because if you move wrong, you could, you know, tear your stitches. It's kind of a sensitive area. And so, guess what? That Sunday, I wasn't beboping my way through the lobby trying to dodge everybody trying to get their caffeine fixed at the coffee station. And so, there are times when church online is appropriate and is necessary. The obvious problem is when people think that church online at infant item is church. And I just got to be honest with you. You have these churches that are trying to do their best to grow their online presence. You have churches that are trying to set up churches inside the metaverse, whatever that is. You have churches that are trying to be on the cutting edge of AI plus quantum and to make sure that there's a space for their church there. They say it's for the gospel, but they would just want to make sure that their church logo is somewhere branded inside of this whole thing, the matrix that we don't quite fully understand. And the the thing about it is that I just want to say like guys, can you substitute the physical gathering for the digital one? Cuz here you and I, we've never met in the flesh. We've never shaken hands. We've never hugged each other. We've only uh interacted via the computer. And you know, I think we're doing our best to make it as interesting as possible for the audience and both of us, but there's always going to be a disconnect because we're not there feeling one another, sensing one another, all of those things. So, let's just talk a little bit about how a lot of people have bought what I would say is a lie that church online is actually church for the long term. >> Well, one of the myths we can do away with right away, Kyle, is that the church online is growing like all get out. It's not. Um, you look you look at any of the researchers that are following this trend. And basically what they're finding is most of the online attendants are people who are listening to a sermon for a second time or they're checking the church out for the first time to decide where they want to go visit and they're new in town. But the online attendance has had a precipitous drop since COVID and it has never returned. So first thing I would just say is the online church really is not existing in any significant number. The main thing I would say though is this Jesus was not in digital. He was incarnational. He was in the flesh. He was here for three years. Jesus was analog before analog was cool. much less much less digital. He He was He was our presence. He did not come simply to to text us a message. He came to abide with us. He came to be with us. That is why he was so adamant that when he left, he was not really leaving, but he was leaving us the Holy Spirit. And that Holy Spirit is going to be with us. And we are to follow the works of God, the son, the holy spirit in our churches. And we become like Christ. We become the mission of Christ. We are the body of Christ and we're carrying out his mission. There are times digital communication. I I love the fact that that I can be on Undaunted. I mean, the it's it's it's it's kind of humbling for me to to be on a cool podcast when I know how my my sons told me, Kyle, I have never been cool, even when I was young. [laughter] He they said, "You you you dad, don't even try. But to be on be on a podcast like this, I'm I'm I'm really honored. That's that's not pretentious." But here's here's the thing about it. What I do know is I am a part of a church. And I do know that I have brothers and sisters in Christ that I rub shoulders with every Sunday. And I do know we love each other. And I do know we sometimes really get dead mad at each other and and we don't like what others are doing. But like a good marriage, you work through those and you come out on the other side. And you talk about marriage 48 years with Nelly Joe. And you know, she she speaks so bluntly. She I I said, "How have you stayed with me for 40 years?" She said, "Unconditional love." [laughter] I try I try to think that one through. But that is biblical love. That's agape. We we know that it's it's a lot more than aasa sto agape. Uh I'm I'm going down paths. I need to bring you back in Kyle. >> No, I So what you're what we're circling the drain on is commitment. And so let's say the church has allowed you to commit to the church through membership. They're upholding their end of the bargain. You're upholding your end of the bargain. And you know it's going well. The problem then becomes when the people that want to be engaged disengage. And so I actually want to read about a detour that you talked about in terms of church involvement. You talked about kids sports. And so I think this is going to be a bugaboo and touch a bunch of nerves, but here we are. That's the entire point of the show. All right. Here's the quote. I've heard a lot of families lament the scheduling of their kids soccer games and basketball tournaments on Sunday mornings. But don't blame the sports leagues. Those organizations wouldn't schedule activities that conflict with church worship services if the parents didn't permit it or perhaps even encourage it. simply stated, "If Christians decided that church attendance was the priority for their children, the sports leagues would look for alternatives other than Sundays to schedule their games. Travel teams would be home by Sunday." No, we can't blame the teams and the organizations. It's a choice the parents are making. To which I would say, "Amen and amen." Because look, I had a pagan upbringing. We didn't go to church, any of those types of things. And look, I played on some pretty dang good baseball teams. So, guess what? We were playing Sunday morning, right? Because, you know, all the crappy teams got eliminated on Saturday sometime around lunchtime. And then the rest of us were still playing well into the night. And then, you know, we typically couldn't even afford the hotel room. So, we drove home only to drive back to, you know, Gobo or Marlo, Oklahoma to finish up this tournament on Sunday morning. But I didn't go to church. And so, but then I live in this community especially and and everybody lives there where it's it's travel baseball, it's travel volleyball, it's basketball, it's all these different things. I invited a couple to church and they initially said yes and they were very excited to come and then they go, "Oh, our daughter who's like six had a three on three basketball tournament scheduled for Sunday morning. >> Sorry, can't come to the church. I got to go do this." >> And you feel the pressure, Tom, like I I want to be there with these parents cuz look, my kids are five and three. We're not really in that thing now. But you get this pressure to where it's like, look, you know, your daughter's a pretty good little soccer player. She's 8 years old. 8 years old. But look, if she doesn't play in this travel league team, then she's not going to be considered for the U10 team, which is where all the best girls go. And then if they're not for that team, then they're not going to be on the U12 team. And then and then and then then and then and then they're not going to be able to get a scholarship to go play at the next level, if not to eventually try to be on Team USA or something like that. That's always the thing. Even though percentile wise, the odds of any of that actually working out that way are incredibly incredibly small. But the parents just go for it. They spend thousands and in some cases tens of thousands of dollars chasing these leagues and traveling all over God's creation. And it's not just sports leagues. It's lake weekends. It's whatever the thing is the rhythm of the family. But you are teaching whether implicitly or explicitly. You're teaching these children lake weekends are more important than the local congregation, this local sports team or sports league or this tournament. trying to get that medal is more important than being a part of the local body of believers. But I think a lot of people, Tom, frankly, don't think that they can turn the ship. They don't think they can be the family that says, "No, we're not going to play on Sundays." Because if you tell the coach that, then your kid doesn't get to play. And then, yeah, you want them to develop. You want them to have those friendships. You want them to have those tournament memories. Like, I still have to this day all those funny things that happened and all the big losses and big wins, but they don't feel like they can. So, I I guess what would you say to that? because it certainly has an impact on the local church. >> Churches can take the leadership in this instead of succumbing to the culture on this. One of my favorite organizations, there's no official affiliation with church answers. I want to make it clear, is an organization called Upward, used to be called Upward Sports out headquartered out of South Carolina. I think they have maybe 10 different sports. What their mission is is to deliver sports to a church to lead sports in order for the church to reach the community through sports. The churches that have adopted this. And again, this is my shout out to Upward. The churches that have adopted this are seeing the communities turn to the church instead of to the community leagues. And in many of these cases, the community leagues have come to these churches that have these upward sports and they're saying, "How can we work together?" Oh, let me talk to you about Sunday. Well, okay. Let's let's let's let's stop scheduling on Sunday. I tell you, Kyle, we surrender too quickly. I mean, we we can be weenies at times and just think the culture's got us. Our kids are not going to be uh in MLB or NFL or whatever the case may be because we didn't put them in these sports leagues. We surrender too quickly. We can have sports participation and other things. But we have to take the leadership and we have we as a church can take the leadership. And guess what? For years, we did take leadership. We have just surrendered. Well, I mean, there's surrender and there's also what you talk about in the book about, you know, how do we get here? Cause number five is church capitulation and and that's what the church has done. I actually do want to read this quote. I think it's important. I wish I could point to a single moment or major event that shifted churches from expecting commitment from their members to capitulating to the culture. I know that's a strong statement and I know there are expectations, but many churches seem to have given up. Many churches seem willing to take the leftovers from members instead of expecting church to be a top priority. Perhaps you have been moving towards reduced commitment in your church. As you think about where you are now, you realize that there have been very little there's been very little said or done to encourage you to a higher level of commitment. It's almost as if the church is okay with your modest involvement. Sports teams expect commitment. Civic organizations expect commitment. Nonprofit boards expect commitment. Why not churches? Why have churches become conspicuously silent about member expectations? I don't have a great answer for this. Maybe they're afraid if they make you mad, then you won't come. And if you don't come, you're certainly not going to give generously to their brethren. Uh, you know, they're not going to be able to meet their building campaign numbers. They're not going to be able to launch that extra campus, their next MC church or whatever. They're not going to be able to do any of those things if they if they alienate too many people with commitment to the local body of believers. And the thing about it is it's it's almost as if these pastors who are supposed to be leading their flocks, they're scared of the sheep. And how effective of a shepherd can you be if you're afraid of the sheep? You should have a a healthy fear of the wolf. A fear that leads you to confront the wolf when it tries to pick off part of the sheep. But if you're scared of the sheep in general, you're going to be completely ineffective when the wolf comes. What say you? >> Consumer Christianity that we've talked about on several points during this podcast. Consumer Christianity was actually one of the main tributaries leading to what we're seeing now where there is fear of the church members. There's there's there's fear that we're going to lose people. We're not going to lose people if our members are truly committed church members on the basis of 1 Corinthians 12:13. We're not going to lose them if we have expectations where we articulate it. Guess what, Cal? People want to be a part of something that is bigger than themselves. They want to be a part of something where a commitment is expected. They want to be a part of something where they can make a difference. If you tell them take it easy, listen to the preach and if you don't like it, we'll try to change it for you. Come when you will, we not only have capitulated, but we have created an ethos where we're not going to be seeing the type of effect that churches can have. Now, the good news is that churches, many of them are moving toward the high commitment model. They're moving toward the high expectation model. Uh, one of the books I wrote so many years ago, you probably weren't even born. uh was called High Expectations and it it became a book again it's you read it now it's kind of so what but at the time I wrote it I got a lot of flack what you're you're you're expecting expectations of church members you're expecting pastors to to say this is this is what a church member really looks like yeah but I had the data I I had the evidence I had the research and I showed where high expectation churches were really the churches that had sustained healthy growth yeah there might be the blips of the MC churches there might be the the the consumer church movement but the sustained healthy reach in our community growth those were the high commitment churches and the that research and others have one limited me that research and others began to let pastors know commitment is the right thing to do but it's also a good thing to do as well >> well and it's commitment but it's like there there are things that typically precede commitment is there not so before you commit to a person in holy matrimony before you commit to a board, before you commit to being a volunteer with something, you typically have to do some stuff on the front end. I don't know too many people that are just willy-nilly throwing around their commitments. But then in the book, you do uh make a hard turn where you talk about five ways to fix it. So, you spend time elucidating where the problem came from, the gravity of the problem, but then it's like, okay, here's the way to fix it. And you you mentioned radical prayer, attendance, imagine that, small groupoup involvement, giving, and evangelism. I want to focus on the first one and the last one as we uh round to a close here. The first one you talk about radical prayer. Here's a quote. Prayer may be the most neglected ministry in the church. Prayer may be the greatest need in the church. God has called you as a believer and as a church member to be a person of prayer. Now earlier you talked about an anecdote of, you know, when people committed themselves to prayer, how it changed things. But I think people get things wrong and prayer is kind of one of those weird deals because it's especially for men. You're talking to a lot of men. They're like, "I don't really know." Cuz they hear about these super holy people that have like a closet in their house completely dedicated to prayer and they just go in there and whail for hours every single day. And most guys on the job site are like, "I don't feel any need to do that." Like, and so they just neglect prayer altogether. So, they can't attach prayer to really any part of their life, much less as it pertains to the local church. >> You you you are exactly right that there is this idea that the the commitment is going to be hard to come by. It's going to be something that is not going to be easy. However, if you bring people into the church on the front end with clear expectations, when you begin to tell them that this is a part of the church, then those are the people that'll become part of the church that will be high committed. Now, you'll still have people who are attenders. You'll still have people who are consumer Christians. you you'll still have people who are unregenerate members or maybe unregenerate maybe not members but you will still have those people but the more that we set up this commitment on the front end you alluded to that uh before we get into something we have to say what is this all about one of the one of the big phenomenon that has taken place in churches today is for lack of better words a church membership class an entry point something where we not only communicate information which used to be the way you came in but also expectation, but then thirdly, assimilation. We're going to tell you what what the church is about. We're going to give you clear commitments about what it means to be a part of the church and why it's such a joy to serve. And then guess what? We're going to get you involved right away. Those three things in churches are really taking place now. That's an exciting trend. >> Well, I like that there's a trend towards that. And I got to be honest, there's something about your posture that changes when you pray for somebody, especially when you pray for someone you don't like. And so, I forget who said it. Uh, so I would love to be able to give them credit. Maybe I heard it from multiple different sources and just kind of like amalgamated it to something that's easy for me to remember. But it's like when you pray, and maybe this is this is a a hard, you know, co-worker, maybe this is, you know, one of your kids, maybe it's a, you know, it's a parent, another member of your family, maybe it's your spouse, a boss, something like that. And you just pray, "God, help me see this person how you see this person, right? You maybe someone you don't even know. Maybe it's a politician or maybe it's someone in culture that you're like they're destroyed in everything and you just say God help me see them as you see them because they are an image bearer right now. They might be evil. They could even be possessed but shouldn't you be praying for that person? That's one thing I try to remind myself especially whenever I'm critiquing somebody publicly that is clearly not a follower of Christ. It's like here I am critiquing their position on public policy when this person doesn't even know Christ and it's like that is the most important gaping hole in their life, not the fact that they're dumb when it comes to some, you know, obscure tax policy or something like that. And so really everything kind of dovetales and goes into the the fifth thing that you said could fix it, which is evangelism. Let me read this quote here. Jesus's commission reveals that every believer is expected to participate in evangelism. His words cut to the core. The church exists to witness to the gospel. If a church remains closed off from its community, if it clings only to its inner internal comforts, then it is failing to live out the command of its savior. Evangelism is not a side activity. It is the final charge of every disciple meant to be practiced through the local church. Evangelism is a crucial commitment. Now, a lot of us have been lulled to sleep, Tom, because we think, well, there are guys that get paid to do this. They are professional Christians. They get up on stage with the fancy lights and the microphone attached to their face and they're supposed to give a fullthroated gospel presentation. And even that's not a good guess and a good bet because how many people have huge flocks, huge congregations. There ain't no Bible coming out, right? They talk about your best life now or what I can do for you and all this other nonsense, but there's no gospel. There's no, "Hey, you're a depraved sinner on your way to hell and let's let's try to do our best to make sure that doesn't happen. Hey, let's try to put a bunch of kindling around you. So when the Holy Spirit does its work, we get we get the inferno, right? But then a lot of people, individual Christ followers, think to themselves, that's something for the professionals to do, not something that I individually have to do. >> These church members, even though they may articulate it and think that they feel the way that you are articulating, Kyle, deep down inside, they know that something's not right. They know that the best thing that has ever happened to them is Jesus. And they know that they're supposed to be talking about Jesus. They understand that something is missing. They many of them do not articulate it. We do this little survey when we work with churches. We try to find out what the members are doing consistently. The lowest score is evangelism. Of the purposes of the church, whatever you want to claim them to be, the lowest score is evangelism. Many of our churches are not evangelistic because they haven't been told they should be evangelistic. They have not been equipped to be evangelistic. And above all, they have not prayed for their communities. Some of the most powerful churches that I know today are averaging 75, 100, 150 and they're reaching their rural community because they have prayed. Yes, what you've said about evangelism is correct in that perception, but deep down inside all Christians know if you truly love something as deeply as Christ loves us, we cannot help but speak about these things which we have seen and heard Acts 4:20. We got to talk. >> Absolutely. Well, Tom, uh I'm always curious what you got next because we know you're not working on nothing. So, uh give us a peek behind the curtain. What's the stuff you haven't told anybody publicly yet? Come on, tell us what's going on. I don't mind telling it all. Uh finishing up a book called Analog Church and it's basically the church is move moving toward a truly incarnational as we talked about posture and what does that look like and uh uh what should we be holding on to digitally but what should we be letting go of and what does a truly in the flesh church look like uh where we're rubbing shoulders together. So uh I think it's called revival of analog church. I'm thinking it's going to be released the end of this year. I'd have to confirm that though. >> Okay, very good. Well, we'll always be happy to have you back on, but that's all for me. Is there anything else you want to get off your chest? >> By the time I by the time I finish uh this particular podcast, I'm ready just to take a breath and say, "Oh my goodness, that was fast, but that was good." >> All right. Well, Tom, we'll have you back on uh several more times if you'll uh if you'll have us. So, thanks again. >> Thank you, Kyle. >> Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive fivestar review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast or shoot me an email to info@undanton.life, that's info@undantton.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www.undton.life. And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is their song Perpetual, which is off their self-titled debut album on Faceown Records. The links are in the description. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the Lion of Judah. [music] [music]