Hey guys, real quick. So, I've talked to men literally all across the globe about where they're missing the mark and how they want to improve. They normally talk about how they wish they were in better shape. They wish they had a better relationship with their loved ones. They wish they had more success and influence at work and some other stuff like that. But here are some of the most common and biggest things that I hear. I wish I knew more about the Bible. I wish I could lead my family spiritually. I wish I could recall more scripture. I wish Bible study wasn't such a struggle. Well, guys, I've got news for you. You don't have to keep wishing. It's time for you to start doing. It's time for you to stop wasting your time and money on stuff that has no eternal value whatsoever. I keep hearing you talk about how you want to be more biblically literate and spiritually resilient. And now is your chance to prove that you mean it. That's why I want you to take advantage of our partnership with the most powerful Bible software on planet Earth, Logos. So, Logos approached me about putting something together for the Undaunted Lifers out there, and we collaborated to create something I'm super pumped about, the Undaunted Life Study Bundle. So, here's the skinny on the bundle. There are over 200 individual resources and they include titles from authors like Vodie Bacham, Charles Spurgeon, RC Sproul, John MacArthur, Matt Chandler, Dietrich Bonhaofer, William Lane, Craig, Paul Washer, John Sto, Doug Wilson, Paul David Trip, Jipacker, and a whole bunch more. And there are so many helpful resources in there. There's Bibles, commentaries, Old and New Testament study guides, devotionals, systematic theologies courses dictionaries histories encyclopedias non-fiction books, and more and more and more. And here's the most insane part about this deal. If you were to buy each individual resource by yourself inside of Logos, it would cost you over $3,000. $3,000. But if you get the Undaunted Life Study bundle, you'll get all 200 plus resources for just $349.99. Guys, that's $3,000 worth of stuff for 350 bucks, guys. That's almost 90% off. And you know that you waste more than that on the hobbies that you have right now all the time. And these won't help you with your disciplehip and sanctification journeys, right? It's time to get real and take control of your Bible study and spiritual development. Click the link in the show notes for this episode. If you want the link, it's logos.com/undauntedlife. That's www.llog.com/undauntedlife or the link in the show notes. It's super easy to sign up. Again, go to the show notes and click the link or go to logos.comlife. Sign up for Logos and get the Undaunted Life study bundle right now. This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. Welcome back to the Forging Table. The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. At the forging table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience by digging into God's word. And we're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with us. That's Usus. That's Wickers Sham. That's Horn. I went all last names this time. But also, I'm really big on creating moments. You know, you try to do that for people. You try to create moments. You try to create, you don't always want to get people to be emotional, but you, you know, you want people to be excited. You know, we create moments for our kids. We create moments when we speak and all that. And then here I go. You know, last week I created this this great moment where I, you know, said how much I liked you guys and I gave you these Bibles and all that. And what is Russ's first feedback to me after we turn off the cameras is hey man you kind of like trampled on the moment a little bit getting right into the scripture. And so for sure I guess here's here's your one also thought that it was like it was a little bit of like he was unsure what we were going to say he was like as soon as he got done telling us how much it meant for him to give us these Bibles he was like and we got to get into the topic right now and he just went even allow you to say thank you. So, um I I will say like if you hadn't have so rudely like cut that off, you know. [laughter] >> Um I was going to say that man, it's been awesome. I mean like um you know asking asking me to come do this um obviously like we've talked so much about u it has started to form a brotherhood and that's kind of encouraging to the guys that are out there maybe trying to start their own Bible study is I didn't know I mean besides you grass meer and Winkler but rarely was I think the first two I was on um y'all were there but then besides that the rest of the group I didn't really know and our commonality is coming in here being genuine with each other reading the Bible um genuinely discussing like where we agree, where we disagree, uh doing it respectfully and like all this stuff has really built like a really fun um what do you call that? Like interchurch brotherhood group there that like I really do cherish and and it's really nice that it's not just the guys, you know, from like my my church group and my Bible study stuff, but it's kind of mixed our our social church stuff together and and that's been really cool. Then for me personally, um I mean it's just been fun for me and you to get to kind of rekindle our friendship over Yeah. Like we we >> met on my 18th birthday. >> Oh wow. August I didn't know that. >> Yeah. August 6th, 2004 is the day we met at PLC retreat wherever we were at. So we've we've known each other for a long time. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I thought it was e-harmony. [laughter] >> Everyone's got jokes this week. No, but then like life goes on from there and we were we were buddies in college and stuff, but you were obviously like had tighter friendships than than ours even even being in that PLC program and stuff and so and then to be able to just kind of reunite over this and Jake get involved with this and he's in a Wednesday night Bible Wednesday morning Bible study that I'm in and so is Grass Meer and so then to kind of listen in on this a little bit and then be able to come and participate. It's been really fun and you know you've got a great group of guys over there. Um I'm just happy I could be a part of it and finally you've given me a Bible. I mean all these guys have been walking around with these things like >> you know what they're all broken in now. >> No, thank you brother. I appreciate it. Well, I I just want to say I'm just uh honored to be a part of this group and the men that uh have poured their their hearts into doing this and Kyle, just to to see what this podcast has become and see see your growth, right, and and your walk as a Christian and and how you've really stepped into that and uh how you're leading people, right? And you're not only leading people, but it's pulled us into that into this and helped us to grow. And I was having a conversation with a guy at work and he's like, "Man, I've just lost the joy in life." >> And I'm just like, "Do you have a group of men that are strengthening you that that are pouring into you?" And you know, 5 years ago, I didn't have a a group of men like this. And it's like, you know, God I don't know if he predestined this or not, you know, but >> we'll find out. Yeah, >> we'll find out. Right. So, uh, but but this has just been a beautiful thing as, uh, you know, when you walk through things like this with brothers over the last 5 years, like we've all been through things and it's just like it may be your time that you need this, but it it's sure been a blessing to be a part of this. And man, to be in the word like this, I, you know, I've had so much growth in the last two years of doing this and being a part of it. And it's just like to have that consistently in your life. um >> when it's something to look forward to and like cuz I don't ever want the the forging table for y'all to seem like drudgery and because it's like this isn't your job technically it's my job but I don't think people would want to listen very long if I was going through this sitting at this table with four microphones and only mine turned on >> absolutely not >> yeah it'd be an absolute disaster [laughter] absolute disaster but I mean you know and it's not just hey you know do you have guys do you have guys praying for you >> like are there guys just that are just like praying for you for your betterment for that dark night of the soul that you're in the middle or the darkest part of the valley of shadow dead are guys praying for you and then you know as Joby loves to say from you know Mark 2 do you have four guys that will pick up a corner of your mat and take you to the feet of Jesus >> because that's one thing when the Dominion guys so my Dominion coaching program >> they'll all come to Oklahoma for a meetup >> and they're around guys from the forge they're around you know my fight club guys they're around my Sunday school guys they're around all these different groups and we usually get together at Adam's uh shop to hang out there might be you know 30 to 50 guys there and And then it like hits all the Dominion guys all at a different time. They're like, "Wait a minute." >> And they'll ask me like, "Are all these people here for you?" And I'm like, "Sort of like the I I am kind of the center point of connection for a lot of these people." >> But I'm like, "When Joby talks about Matt Toters, when John Eldridge talks about Band of Brothers, when Matt Chandler talks about, you know, King's Table, when I talk about Foxhole, >> here's a few dozen guys that are willing to pick up a corner of my mat and take me to the feet of Jesus." And some of y'all have had to do that before. you know what I mean? Uh to remind me of what this book says and what I purport to believe about it. And you know, >> I don't feel bad for the men that have put no effort into creating that and then don't have it. >> Yeah. >> Sorry. I don't feel bad for you. >> Like like in general, I feel bad that you don't have that, but you've done nothing to create it. You've done nothing to be a foxhole guy. >> Yeah. >> And you you're not willing to pick up a corner of someone's mad if it's going to inconvenience you, >> right? And so, uh for me, I just, you know, Yeah. do whatever you want. Pursue whatever thing that you want to do. I can't control your life. I can only control mine. But it's like you lament the position you put yourself in. >> Yeah. >> Think about that. And then think about how you can undo the circumstances that you're in now. And so that's what I would uh encourage everyone to do. And one of the best things I mean, just think about the drudgery that people feel about going to Bible study. Oh, I got to go to Bible study. I got to go, oh, I got to go to Wednesday morning or all the guys are going to text me and ask why I wasn't there at, you know, whenever y'all meet 3:30 in the morning at IHOP or something. And so you're you're like you don't want that but you don't look forward to it. >> And you know again yes this is my job you know doing this content creation stuff like whatever but it's like >> you just have to take the next right step because when we launched this podcast in 2017 this was not an even an inkling of an idea to eventually do this. But watching [clears throat] the Robertsons do it for so long so well, even you know when Phil was here and even after he's passed away, the the the effort >> that Phil and Jace and Al and any of their guests put into preparing for the table and I was like, if we could do that even poorly, but if if we could do that to where we have >> we have that that desire to be ready not to perform, >> but to dig to am I right about this to defend provide an apology for why we believe what we believe and we're certainly going to have we've done that a lot and we're certainly going to have that in our batch and so uh just thrilled to have the guys around around me and like know all all kidding and jokes aside like I just can't believe men of your caliber are still wanting to be a part of this right and because as I've told people before that have been you know even tangentially attached on Dawn to life like this is this is not a free ride thing like it may cost something here because when my job is to equip men to push back, >> it gets really dark sometimes and it gets really dirty and we have to go into some really, really dark areas to try to push that darkness back and it's places that culture doesn't like very much. It's places that churches that don't believe in the Bible don't like very much and it's just what we're called to do. And you know, it would be really, really hard for me to be at the tip of the spear without guys like you next to me. So, >> have you ever heard of the idea of uh have y'all heard this still going around called type two fun? >> No. >> I heard of So, I brought it up in Bible study last week and um it a buddy of mine had sent me a real about it or something a little while back about uh he's somebody I duck hunt with and so like you go on all these miserable type you know set yourself up for misery for a couple hours to have a good time and so >> 3:30 in the morning. >> Yeah. So type type one fun is just like doing the thing that is fun in the moment. It's like whatever you think is fun in the moment. You go to a movie. Okay, you went to a movie. It was fun. It was exactly what the fun thing was. Um maybe it's roller coasters. Maybe it's, you know, a play. What whatever it is that you think is fun. Fishing. You catch fish. That's the that's the fun. But then there's type two fun. Type two fun the difference is that when you're doing it, there's like a great amount of adversity to get it done. And then once it's done in reflection, you look back and you're like, man, that was awesome. That is exactly what I wanted. But it was not smooth sailing the whole time. It was like climbing that mountain that you plan to climb. Going on that elk hunt that you know is going to be grueling just for the chance uh to get a shot. Maybe you don't get a shot, but you look back at the trip and you're like, that was a trip of a lifetime. It wasn't about It wasn't about the harvest. It was about the trip. Those are type two fun. those things that are grueling while you're doing them. Uh, and then I I told the group I was like, "It's crazy because if you're around enough people that do that enough, you will find the guy who in the midst of type two fun actually is having fun during it." >> Cuz like there's one guy that just Yeah. There's one guy that's just he has the mentality and like you're doing something really hard and you look over and everybody else is miserable, but they know it's going to be worth it. And then there's one guy in the group, you look over and he's just >> smiling. [laughter] Yeah, >> that's usually like >> I'm like that when I'm smoking Howard's meat, but I mean, you know, >> you like [laughter] this. You like this. So like, but that so like we were talking about that because uh we were going through Timothy. So, we were just finishing up first Timothy going into second Timothy and uh we were talking about how Paul is so so willing to call people into type two ministry that it is like there's there's type one ministry that is just pretty straightforward, you know, go serve in a Sunday school class for little kids or go, you know, just bring your Bible with you to the coffee shop and read and just like the stuff that it really doesn't have many barriers for. But then then the type two ministry style stuff is stuff that's grueling. Like go lead a Sunday school class of young marrieds that are going to be going through major stuff. They're going to be going through uh new babies. They're going to be going through the lack of ability to have babies, going to be going through parental issues. Lots of like you start getting into like real ministry stuff and you better realize it's type two ministry fun. like like when you have those breaths of fresh air to look back and to like pause and to absorb it in, you will realize, man, that was good. That was good. But it almost takes those pauses to to like absorb and be like, that was good. And Paul is notorious for just assuming that he's like, "Yeah, I just got stoned and beat up and left for dead. Let's go have another round. >> I got bit by a snake. Let's start a fire." Yeah. Yeah. >> But like, isn't the Christian walk basically type two? >> I mean, it's always going to be type two. It's like, you give me a hard time. You're like, >> uh, what what I want. I like hang out with the kindergarteners. He's like, why would you ever want to do that? [laughter] Like my wife's the same way. She's like I was like, I find so much joy in it. Like I don't even like teach her anything. I just go there and hang out with them. >> And it's just like, yeah. Is it grueling? Absolutely. Am I constantly getting beat on and like having to wrestle with kids and like kids are climbing all over you? Absolutely. But like how many men actually like go how many how many of those kids actually have men in their classrooms that can show them, you know, like what it is to be a man, >> you know, and so it's like there's there's things that that aren't the easiest things to do, but man, they are rewarding in the end, like you say. >> Well, and I I'll tell you this with um you know, you bring up, you know, people that smile through the pain and all that. Like I remember Shelby Bullard, who's a foxhole guy of mine, UCO wrestler, just absolute tough as nails dude. And I would be leading the fight club workouts and I would only look at two people. I would look at Shelby Bullard and Germaine Brown. >> And so because Germaine never stopped smiling. It's so annoying. [laughter] >> Uh and Shelby is stonefaced all the time. >> And I would try to make Shelby look uncomfortable and I would try to make Germaine stop smiling. Like that was like my that was like my and I would just forget everybody else who's already dead. I'm only focused on these two guys and trying to trying to put them in, you know, a bad place. >> And it's like I've learned so much from both of them with both sides of what you just said on that, you know, that type of fun >> to where it's like, man, this really, really sucks, but you're not going to be able to look at my face and tell that it [clears throat] sucks cuz we all know it sucks, >> but it's just stoneface. Or, man, this really, really sucks. I'm going to smile through it. >> I'm just going to smile through everything that's happening right now. And I mean that's that'll preach when it comes to to guys and what you're trying to do in your own individual life when no one's watching, but especially when other people are watching because when you are in the throws of your Psalm 23 moment, right? When you are in the darkest part of the valley of the shallow death, people are paying attention and you don't really realize that. And I remember a few years ago, uh, there was a guy going through some really, really tough stuff. And one of his foxhole guys was talking to him and it was just like, man, if if I had to deal with what you were dealing with, I would not be dealing with it the way you have been. I I I don't even know how you're still standing. And he wasn't it wasn't a false compliment. It wasn't an empty compliment. He meant it. He's just like, "I am so impacted by just how you have carried yourself in this seemingly impossible situation that you don't deserve, that you never thought you would ever have to go through." And just I mean, what a compliment that is to someone to say, "Look at your faith that that grew during this moment." I mean, you know, Russ, you and I are both uh dealing with, you know, I'm uh 3 months post surgery on a ruptured bicep. Like, you have a ruptured Achilles and all those different things. and you know, you're down. You're not able to do the stuff that you normally do. But if you go back to my Leash on a dragon episode from by the time you listen to this would have been, I don't know, four, five, six weeks ago. Um, one of my Dominion guys, I was doing a coaching call with him and he goes, "Kyle, do you think that God let you hurt your arm so that you could spend time making these connections that didn't only blow your mind, but has blown other people's minds?" And I've I've gone on record saying of the 900 some odd episodes I have out there, guys, if I die anytime soon, please share the leash on a dragon episode as my magnumopus, right? Let that be. Because there wasn't a whole lot of manhood talk and you know, Jesus was a manly man and all the stuff that I'm known for, spiritual, mental, physical resilience. The entire crux of that message was >> God's sovereign, his sovereignty is wider than you can imagine. So you can trust him. >> You're in your Psalm 23 depths of darkness moment. You can trust him. you don't know where the next meal's coming from. You can trust him. You were just betrayed by someone that you loved and trusted. You can trust him. And I I think that that's just one of those moments that it's good that we can all kind of lean on each other and grow in those moments. Um before we get into verse 6 of Romans 9, I did want to point something out because I thought this was great. If you don't have the the one volume MacArthur um commentary, that's something that's got to be in all of your different libraries. But when we go when we go back to Romans 9:4 and 5, they are Israelites and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, so on and so forth. If we go to the covenants, >> Mac actually like says which ones and he points it out and we're not going to go to all these references, but it's good that if you guys if you're watching this and you got your Bible open or your notebook open, take these down. Here are all the different covenants that are being described there. Number one, the Noeic covenant. That's Genesis 9:18-17. Number two, the Abrahamic covenant. That's Genesis 12. Then the law given to Moses on Sinai. That's Exodus uh 19 through31 and Deuteronomy 29 and 30. Then there's the priestly covenant from Numbers 25:10-13. The fifth is the eternal kingdom through David's greatest son, 2 Samuel 7:es 8-16. And then we have the new covenant that we see described. That's the sixth one. Jeremiah 31:31-34, Ezekiel 37:26, and Hebrews 8 uh 6. Uh it's Hebrews 8. I I put the reference down wrong there. But I mean, the thing about all of these covenants is they're all eternal and unilateral except the Mosaic one. Every single one of these is eternal and like applicably unilateral. And so I think that's a very very important thing. So, if you want to nerd out and dig into all those different covenants to focus in on a single word from verse 4, there you go. I've just ruined the next month of your life cuz you're going to be uh digging deep into that. But we do need to go ahead and get into Romans 9:6. Russ, if you will go ahead and hit that Romans 9 verse 6. >> Sure. But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel. >> Right. And so we'll get into the Israel part. I should have just had you read the first sentence. We'll just focus in on the first part of verse 6 right now, but it is not as though the word of God has failed. So one of the references there, the Reformation Study Bible does an amazing job with the the footnotes that that goes back to Genesis 17 and 8. I'll read that here. And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant to be God to you and your offspring after you. And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings all the land of Canaan for an everlasting possession. And I will be their God. And so again, what is Paul doing here in a singular letter with a lot of different arguments and high points, low points, parts that are a little confusing. He is defending he is he he's vindicating God's character >> in thinking that, oh, God's unfair, right? And we're going to get some by no means uh you know, in in in chapter nine. But you know, but it is not as though the word of God has failed. Because again, as any good salesman would, and he's not a snake foil salesman, but as any good salesman would do, you're anticipating the objection >> before the objection is voiced. You are providing a defense for that for that objection. And so, let's go and get into a discussion of the first part of verse six there. >> I think Oh, go ahead. Well, I was just say you're talking about that in sales, right? That's what I've been in sales for 20 years in my life. And it's like I I talk to my guys. I'm like, if you're going to go into a deal and you don't have two things to overcome an objection or three, >> you're sunk. >> You're you're you're not ready, right? And so Paul, you know, being the guy that he is, he is ready for these objections and he sets it up just perfectly, right? And he knows, you know, and I love what MacArthur, he kind of frames this up and he that this 6 through13 is talking about God's promise. He knows that that's what the Jewish people are trying to figure out. And it's like if the gospel is true, then is God's promise is it is it void? So, I mean, I just love the way that he sets this up through the rest of the chapter with this. >> I think one thing to look at is if we're looking at the new covenant, we're looking at the Christ's covenant. The Jews aren't coming to Christ. And so, it's looking as if God has failed because the Jewish people aren't seeing Christ as the Messiah. They're they basically sent him to the cross. >> Yeah. So from like talking about what he talked about through eight from verse one to eight it looks like people can set up well how come all the Jews aren't coming to Christ. Yeah. You know has God failed in this? And he sets it up from there. >> It goes back to what we were talking about last week where what I mean this is this is his magnumopus like hey salvation justification is an individual thing right? you were justifying an individual. And yes, God loves to save entire houses worth of people, right? We see that in the New Testament uh in the Gospels that God loves saving entire groups, right? But God doesn't save last names, he saves first names is one way to say it to where it's like you don't get to go to heaven because your grandma was a good devout Christian, right? That's that country music theology stuff that I that I rail against all the time. Uh but yeah, other stuff there on because I mean six six through >> I'm going to tie into seven. >> We'll get into seven here in a sec. >> I think the thing for me it's like Paul's saying here is if or the Jews are saying well if if this promise for our people isn't true, right? Then none of the rest of this can be true. We can't trust God, right? And so at the end of the day, he's like, this is the foundational truth that his promises are true. And to to fully break that out here, I mean, that's where it's like, if he fails in explaining this one, the rest of it's going to be really challenging. >> And I think that's where we have to look at and we'll get more into Israel. But it's like his word hasn't failed because we have to bring it back to the individualization >> because now when we look at what Christ has done on the cross, it's not just for the Jews. It's for the Jews and the Gentiles. And >> so it's no longer a called chosen people. It's descendants of and we'll we'll go back through those descendants of of Abraham that bring in the gentile race. Because you got to think and this is one part that I go back and forth on really understanding which piece of the audience try Paul is trying to talk to whether this is directed more towards the Jews or the Gentiles because it's either trying to curb the Jews to back away a little bit from their uh cockuress of like their special >> place and maybe maybe pulling back a little bit from having only assurance in Christ. Or he's trying to answer a question that the Gentiles could legitimately have by saying, "Hey, we're putting our faith in this thing." And by the way, the more we hear these Jews talk, they kind of had something that they already had their faith in, but then God kind of changed his mind. And he's addressing that to say, "No, uh, he didn't change his mind. This has always been set up. This is always what he promised. He promised them as a people that these things and let me show you the things that came from from them. These are the things that make them special. They are God's special people. They are God's chosen people. They're chosen just for the fact that even the Christ, the flesh, comes from them that is Christ. You know that that that's a blessing unto that nation all of its own. And so I look at both of these and and I kind of go back and forth to be like, is he wanting to catch the Jewish people offguard by this and really like hit them in the nose with this? Or is he trying to combat an argument that the Gentiles are starting to have where they're saying, "Well, we don't want to be like the second rate Jews that put our faith into this and then this goes somewhere else." You know, like, can we be assured that this is going to go? >> To me, it's No, I mean, go ahead. >> No, you go ahead. I was just going to say to me it's the the Gentiles are looking at the Jews of like, well, you're you're you're not as good anymore, right? And so he's speaking to them, but he's also speaking to the Jewish people. It's like, you know, we based on of all these things, it's like our we're special in God's eyes. Well, and now he's saying you're not special in God, we're not special in God's eyes. And Paul is going to melt all of this together. But he says and he he references uh Jeremiah 32:41-42, I will rejoice in doing them good and I will plant them in the land um plant them in this land and faithfulness and with all my heart and all my soul. So it's like he's telling him of of what he will do, right? And I don't honestly think his argument or he's trying to tell one one the Jew or the Gentile he's trying to I think what he's trying to come across is there's one argument. The argument is God's sovereignty. It's it's he's proving God's sovereignty is greater than whatever argument the Jews have or what the Gentiles have against whether he uh failed or not. It's like God cannot fail. He's sovereign in everything that he does. Here's why. Because if you look back at the Jews, he fil fulfilled his covenant because who came through the Jews? >> Christ. Christ came through the Jews. That covenant's fulfilled. Now that covenant for Christ comes and encompasses everyone. And then as we go through further then if we go back to 8 and there was something in 8 where it talked about God's children will be revealed. >> Mhm. >> Um uh in the in in the coming of Christ. And so what he's revealing right now is that the children of God aren't aren't from a line or a lineage of of a nation. The children are God is who he's chosen. >> Well, let's let's put a finer point on that. So let's uh >> um Howard, if you want to read, so just read six through 8. Um so we'll, you know, we focus in on the first part of six there, but just read six through eight. >> Six through eight. Okay. So um it is not as though God God's word has failed had failed for all who are descended from Israel are Israel nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary it is um sorry it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned. In other word, In other words, it is not the children by the physical descendants who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. >> Can I read that in ESV? >> Yeah, let's read ESV as well. >> That should be >> Go ahead. >> That was ESV. >> I think that was NASBY. >> I think that was >> because I I'll show you why. But is not through the word of God. It excuse me. But is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and that not all children of Abraham, not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but through Isaac shall your offspring be named. >> That's that's where ESV has. This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. What did yours have instead of named >> had reckoning >> be reckoned? >> Reckoned. >> And so, so the thing about this section here is so it actually hearkens back again because all this is interconnected. Romans 8:13 through 15. So if we go back for if you live according to the flesh, you will die. But if by the spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led by the spirit of God are sons of God. For if you did not receive the spirit of slavery, for you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of adoption as sons by whom we cry, "Aba, Father." A lot there. Aba is obviously a very intimate title. Um, and this is where we kind of get into the breakdown of the difference between being uh flesh but not offspring, between being, you know, flesh but not not sons. because all of the Israelites of this time, they are of the flesh of Abraham. >> Mhm. >> But they are not all sons. >> So like one thing that I always like to think of and I used to hear this a lot and when I grew up in cultural Christianity, I heard it all the time like like there was a certain group that's like within their sin and somebody is like coming to their defense, they would what do they usually say? They usually say we're all God's children. >> Yeah. >> But that's a lie. >> Churches will say that and also culture will say that. We're all God's creation, >> but we're not all God's children. >> And that's [clears throat] a really hard thing to reckon with. >> And verse eight is it is separating off two groups because we already talked about the separation between those that are in Adam and those that are in Christ. Those are the two categories. There is not a third and there is no gradations of either. It is you are either in Adam or you are in Christ. >> But verse eight, it is pitting of the flesh versus of the promise. >> Okay? So Jews are descendants of Abraham, right? And there are individual Jews that are chosen by God to be recipients of his co. So the Jews were recipients of his covenantal blessings. Right? That's where we got in with all the covenants that we listed earlier. Yeah. All those different things. Now we are getting into a justification argument >> to which amongst them are justified. Where does justification come from? We've talked about this. I loved it. Mark, you know, uh Mark Hitchco blew my mind with this, but it's like salvation isn't a past tense thing like we all think it was. like oh at church camp when I was seven I received uh faith in Christ or when I was 30 uh you know after a you know weekend bender that's when I received Christ okay so that is our justification that is past tense now we have the present tense of our salvation which is our sanctification journey right >> that's the uh what tier 2 fund or whatever you were talking about and then we have our future tense justification or future tense salvation which is our glorification right and so right now Paul is referring to the individuals within the Jews within the Jewish people >> within the Jewish people that are are being chosen to be to be like offspring because even if you look at you know we'll get into you know Isaac and Ishmael >> but Ishmael was of Abraham's flesh. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> But he was not offspring of God. He had not been been chosen to receive. >> But we go to that. Why wasn't he? >> Cuz God works in what? >> Yeah. >> God works in miracles. in his selective ordinance. >> And so out of the flesh, Ishmael was created because God told Abraham and Sarah, "I will provide you with an heir." They're like, "That's crazy. We're old. You cannot do that." God's like, "That this is my plan." Well, what did Sarah and Abraham decide to do? Make their own plan. So Ishmamail was built through flesh. He was born through flesh >> and not born through the promise of God. He was not chosen by God. Uh, so I I was I think MacArthur talked about this. He referenced Hebrews 11:4. By faith, Abel offered Abel's offer to God was a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, though which he um he was commended commended him by accepting his gift and through faith, though he did not or though he still speaks, excuse me. And so I think that's that piece that it uh it reckons back to Romans 2:28 and 29. Um, for no one is Jew who is merely outwardly nor um, sorry guys, I can't read today. >> For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But the Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man, but from God. And I think that's that piece here. It's just like they the Jews are still seeing themselves of just like we're the chosen people all based on these promises and they're they're missing this piece of it. It's a matter of the heart, not just this this tie to lineage and it's just >> I think that's where I think that's where Paul is in his anguish, you know, is because he's like >> you you have God's actual promise delivered to you through Christ. and you were a part of through his sovereign plan why he was able to die for our sins but you just don't see it you know and it's because your eyes haven't been open to it >> I I still think you know part of this I think he is he is still um giving the justification and he's he's going to get deeper into it but to conquer this idea that's building in the church of the uncertainty of can we trust in the sovereignty of God. Did it work out? There's some conflict there going on to where there's questions being asked by the Jews and by the Gentiles as well. How did that work out for the people of Israel? Like Israel as a whole was supposed to be the people and now they're not just the people. And so like he's starting to break this down to say now remember this was all based off of a covenant. What's another word for a covenant? A promise. So he's saying like the people that were actually lived in that prom like there is still a promise that has continued through them to bring about the Christ. That's what was promised. And now now we're stepping into the next step to where this is this is here >> and they're missing it. >> But that shouldn't mean that you should miss it. For all those that are listening, you know, to him at this point, he is saying don't get caught up in whether or not you can trust God because this is what happened. I'm telling you, he has been faithful even through all of this to bring Christ through Israel. And he kind of gives them like a bolster of like listing the cool things that have happened through them almost as a way to like I feel like he's still trying to push them past the idea of yes, you can trust him. >> I I mean, I think I think when I look at this, I look at it what Paul's trying to come to kind of portray is is kind of prove God's sovereignty. But when when you say people have questions, >> when you go further into Romans nine, it's like he quells the questions with a very blunt answer. Just like Job did, like when you look at the story of Job, Job goes through these horrible orals. Uh boils, family dies, um he's got sores, his brothers are basically calling him out in sin and everything. And he goes to God and says, "God, why are you doing this >> to you?" What is what does God say to Job? >> Were you there when I created this thing? >> He comes with a blunt answer is like, "My plan is sovereign. You don't understand it. Who are you?" >> Mhm. And I feel like with like we look at these questions and we we think of the questions from either the Jews or the Gentiles and and I can see that to a point, but it's just like when you get to it, it's not like it's it's a loving answer in regards to who God is, but it's a very blunt answer that people don't like. >> Oh, yeah. And I I feel like as as we grow to that, it's just like it's like what what when something happens, people always say it it is what it is, you know? >> No, it's it is what God ordained it to be. >> Yeah. But then when it comes to God, it's like it's who I am. >> Well, we I was talking about this with some of the guys on our Friday morning Bible study is that, you know, what did the disciples think that Jesus's ministry was going to look like in their mind? >> Oh, they thought he was going to be on the throne, right? They thought he my son be at my right. They're looking at revelation. Yeah. Military leader. >> Yeah. >> And when he's talking about, you know, um I'm going to go to the cross and those things. No, no, no. Not not that's not the way it's going to be. You know, we have all these thoughts of how we think things are going to be. And the Jewish people thought the same thing, right? It's not in the not in the form of which we think it's going to happen. And it was a shocker to them. It's like, wait a minute, what? >> Well, and I that's why I like, you know, because you know, if you don't like the shows, I don't care. But like one of the things that was helpful is when you see the so there's confusion right so we we see right straight from the gospels that and you know he does this parable and then basically it's just like oh what what like that's like the disciple the apostles are like what in the world is he talking about >> but [clears throat] then I love how it's depicted by the actor that plays Judas the the sheer frustration >> that Jesus is not doing what Judas would do if he was in that position. It's like, no, we can we can overthrow the Romans. Like we we can we can dismantle uh like the entire Roman Empire, which the gospel does do that and every empire, but like he didn't do it the way that God wanted him to or that he would do if he were God. And like, you know, we can >> it's in a fleshly realm, >> right? Judas was thinking of the flesh. >> Christ was thinking of the kingdom. And like that's the thing that we like that's where where we see Paul defending God here. Has God failed? No, he hasn't failed. And he gives reasons why he hasn't failed. And people think that God has failed because the Jewish people aren't believing in Christ. They don't believe in this new covenant. >> Well, what is it? Galatians 3:29. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, right? It's about spiritual Israel, not physical. >> Yeah. Flesh versus offspring. What does it mean to be called sons and that's that's gendered language, but it does speak right to be named. >> And and really the argument goes further. So we're we're going to do another chunk here. Uh Russ, if you can actually read uh so again guys, we're still in Romans 9. So Romans 9 9 through13. >> Okay. For this is what the promise said. About this time next year, I will return and Sarah shall have a son. And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born, and had done nothing good nor bad, in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works, but because of him who calls. She was told, "The older will serve the younger." as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated. >> So many references going on here. So if we back up to verse 9, about this time next year, I will return and Sarah will have a son. That's Genesis 18:10. [gasps] >> The Lord said, I will surely return to you about this time next year. And Sarah, your wife, shall have a son. And Sarah was listening at the tent door behind him. And then it shows that, you know, she was laughing. She she got a good cackle out of that. She did not think that was even possible. Then we get into verse 10 uh where it's talking about Rebecca. So if we go to Genesis 25:21. So Genesis 25:21. And Isaac prayed to the Lord for his wife because she was barren. And the Lord granted his prayer and Rebecca his wife conceived. And then when we get into the next part here where we get into Romans 9:12, this gets into Genesis 25 still, but now we're in verse 23. And the Lord said to her, "Two nations are in your womb, and the two peoples from within you shall be divided, and the one shall be stronger than the other, and the other shall shall shall serve the younger." And so, there's a lot of even cross references there. But then we get into Malachi. That's verse 13. As written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated. We were talking before recording, and I was like, I just completely space that that wasn't in Genesis. That that cuz that quote is directly from Malachi 1. So I'll read the first three verses of Malachi chapter 1. The oracle of the word of the Lord to Israel by Malachi. I have loved you, says the Lord, but you say, "How have you loved us? Is not Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the Lord. Yet I have loved Jacob, but Esau I hated. I have laid waste to his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert. I'll go ahead and read four and five. If Edom says, "We are shattered, but we will rebuild the ruins." The Lord of Hosts says, "They may build, but I will tear down, and they will be called the wicked country, and the people with whom the Lord is angry forever. Your own eyes shall see this, and you shall say,"Great is the Lord beyond the border of Israel." So, after Malachi is done pinning his, you know, his prophetic words and and all these different things as a as a prophet of the Old Testament, there is silence for 400 years before the arrival of Jesus. silence. So he begins the final salvo of what will later become known as the Old Testament with that >> wi with a call back to Jacob I loved but Esau I hated. Um one quick thing and then we we'll kick it off from there. Reformation study Bible was really helpful um for for my study of Romans chapter 9. It said that 11 through13. So we did 9 through13, but 11 through13 specifically clenches the argument in three ways regarding Jacob and Esau. And that this was great. It was really really helpful to me. Number one, they were biological twins. Yep. >> Okay. So they were equal as equal in nature of flesh as possible. They were twins in the same womb. >> That's number one. Number two, the older serve the younger, which is an inversion of cultural expectations. Like that, you know, right now, you know, if you're the eldest or, you know, if you're the middle child or the youngest child or something like that, you can kind of feel that. Back then, the cultural expectations on the firstborn, especially a firstborn son, were insane, right? They they were they were so highly regarded and protected. >> And to say the older serve the younger, that's another clinch of this. And then the third argument, the purpose of God for them was stated before they were born. It was not based on their actions or deeds or faith. And this goes right into what you read, Russ, in verse 11. Though they were not yet born, Jacob and Esau not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad. So the selection of God for what they would do had nothing to do with them having done enough good deeds or done enough bad deeds to warrant one calling versus another. Right? And so I think that that's it's just incredibly important and to have so many verses referred to here in this one letter. And again when it says Jacob I loved and Esau I hated we we kind of think that means ah he just loved Esau a little less >> than he loved Jacob. He's going to prefer to Jacob. No, no, no. [laughter] >> It was rejection. >> It It was antipathy. >> And when were those words pinned? >> 1500 years after their deaths. >> That's when Malachi is writing this. 1500ish years after Jacob and Esau died. >> And so the like it's not like, oh, it's not a fable now. It's not like changed meaning in some way. It's like, no, no, no no. >> Hated Esau. Complete rejection. Mhm. >> And it had nothing to do with how Esau reacted because he was rejected before he was born. And that I mean you're you could chew on that for a few thousand years and and we've had plenty of theological arguments for the last 2,000 years just even about that. >> I think Piper really like laid this out for me when I was like trying to figure out like how to best well explain what we're reading here. And when when I look at it, you you have two arguments that Paul's trying to make. He first starts with uh Isaac and Ishmael. >> And that's where I kind of allude to what I talked about um earlier on in the in the podcast is is that you have two brothers. You have Isaac and Ishmael, but Isaac is the chosen one. And he talked about how Isaac was chosen based upon when he talked about Sarah where God says I will come and within the next year you'll be with child. She laughs. She thinks it's funny because why? They're old. It would be a miracle for her to have children. And they don't even still think it's going to happen. So Ishmael is born as a child of flesh. >> So he was not the promise that God talked about. So now Isaac is that promise. Well, now when you talk about that promise, you have you have Ishmael who is a son of Abraham. and so is Isaac, but they're from two different mothers, >> not from the promise. And so that's where he takes it further with Rebecca and Isaac. He's now you have two brothers. >> Yeah. >> Who are born of the same flesh. They're the same bloodline. >> Mhm. >> And the first one born is what who's who's supposed to get the promise. But God says before in the beginning, he says before they were born had done nothing either good or bad in order that God's purpose of election might continue. He elects Jacob. He chooses Jacob. And then he that's when he comes back to Jacob I love and Esau hated. >> Even though they're of the same flesh and they're of the same blood, he chose to move that line through Jacob and destroy everything >> when it came to Esau. So, do you take it uh do you take it as I take I can see a piece here that just doesn't mesh well with like the idea. So, like I get the part that before they were born, the older will serve the younger. That was that was God's predestined um roles that they were going to play. But do you also take it? So like that was predestined. That happened before they were born, before they did anything good or bad. God had decided the roles that they would play. One serving the other, the younger uh over the older. And then it as it is written like that he's like adding on to this to say cuz Jacob I loved and Esau I hated. When that is referenced like there is a real reason why God hated Esau. They became like the kingom kingdom of Edom. I believe and like they were constantly >> um like ruthlessly uh against the Lord's work and so like it played it there was context then at that point to say like why that those two would be hated or why he would be hated. But do we think that do we think that God's sovereignty on on that that it was like predestined for for Esau to be hated as well? And then like my other question is, you know, like some pastor brought this up. I thought it was so good. It was we know the story of Jacob. He wasn't perfect. Like the real question is here too. Like it's easy to understand why Esau was hated. Why was Jacob loved so much? Like he wasn't perfect. >> Um but yet he was he was that that was the role that God chose for him to be uh over his brother from the beginning before he was even born is I don't know. There's something there that I can't quite grasp. So we keep on searching for it. >> It's it say as though they were not born and had done nothing either good or bad >> in order of God's purpose and election might continue not because of the works. Works. So works are not >> God's not looking at the works of what they're going to do in the future because he knows Jacob's going to do bad things. He knows Esau's go Esau's line's going to do what they do. >> He he calls of him who calls. She told them the older were served the younger. As written Jacob I loved Esau hated. That's where I'm I'm just saying is there a separation there between >> that he they were chosen for their for their purpose of the older to serve the younger and and also for the older to be hated or is there a separation there that he's saying that this purpose was chosen for them before they were born for the older to serve the younger and then that played out as being Jacob I loved Esau I hated >> so I I think this is helpful and so one thing guys um if you don't have the Logos Bible software And it it's such a huge thing. And they have a new AI function that only uses cuz if you've ever done any Bible study or theological stuff using Chad GBT or Grock or Gemini or or or claic any of that kind of stuff, the inputs are coming from pagans, right? These are non-believers, atheists that are that are doing these inputs and it's it's taking the whole of the internet into giving you an answer. What the Logos Bible Software does with their AI study assistant is only taking materials from within their libraries. Okay. Now, within their libraries, you're going to get a lot of differences in terms of how things are are presented. As an example, um before I get to this because I think this is going to be really helpful. Russ, I asked the Logos uh study assistant a couple of weeks ago. I was like, "Hey, everywhere where a shepherd or a pastor or a deacon or an elder is described in the Bible, isn't the language always gendered male?" And it gave me this kind of mealymouth like, you know, answer. It was a [laughter] very intright type of an answer where it was like, "Well, this and well, that and you know, some people would argue this, some people would argue that." And I literally responded to the AI >> with antipathy. I said, "Stop answering the question like you're trying to win a debate in a room full of liberals. would you just give me an answer that reflects the text? >> And the answer came back, yeah, all the language is gendered male. >> And I was like, okay. [laughter] So, even within this, you >> be abusive to the AI. All right. If the robots are going to take over, they're going to get us anyway. Okay. But I just typed in >> Mhm. >> Romans 9 9-13 calling back to Malachi 1-5. Tell me more about God deciding to love Jacob over Esau before either were born. >> Okay. So, it's pretty pointed, but still open-ended. So, it's going to take a second because it's uh you know, four quick sections here, but I think this is helpful and then we can kind of build out from there. Paul emphasizes that Jacob and Esau were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad. That's Romans 9:9-13. A crucial detail that frames God's choice as entirely independent of human merit or action. This temporal placement matters because it establishes that God selected Jacob prior to birth so that election would occur before they had done anything good or bad. And this election happens not by works but by him who calls. Okay, next section. The connection between Romans 9 and Malachi reveals how Paul interprets God's preference. In Malachi, God declares, "I have loved Jacob, but Esau I have hated." A statement that initially sounds like personal animosity. However, Paul's description of God's preference for Jacob over Esau should not be over interterpreted as a comprehensive theological statement about God's hatred for a particular people group. Instead, the language expresses God's selection of one over another for specific covenantal purposes. I'll read that again. Instead, the language expresses God's selection of one over another for specific covenantal purposes. Next section. God determined to make the older Esau serve the younger Jacob so that this promise in accordance with election might stand not of works, but of him who calls. The point isn't that Esau was inherently unworthy or that God arbitrarily despised him. Rather, God's election establishes which line carries forward the promise. >> Paul considers God's choice of Jacob over Esau to be representative, even paradigmatic for the the principle of election. Last section here, this rate and and just even as I'm reading this guys, Logos is not a it's not legioner. Okay, this is not we start with uh reformed theology and then build out from there. Okay, this brings in everything. Last section here, >> this raises the interpretive question of scope. Interpreters generally argue for either individual election or corporate election based on Paul's citation of Malachi 1:2 with those arguing for individual election pointing to Jacob and Esau as real individuals. While those arguing for corporate election note that Jacob represents Israel and Esau represents the Many commentators suggest Paul refers to both corporate and individual election, developing his premise about God's faithfulness by appealing to corporate promises to Israel that involved individuals. >> I'll read that last section again. This goes back to why is he doing what he's doing in 910 and 11? Because he's defending the character and nature of God. Many commentators suggest Paul refers to both corporate and individual election, developing his premise about God's faithfulness by appealing to corporate promises to Israel that involved individuals. And we're right back to where we were at the beginning of all this. We are in Adam or we are in Christ, right? And God is apparently pre-ordaining like who [snorts] he's going to use in order to get his purposes fulfilled. So I just I thought he's pre-ordaining who is in Adam and who is in Christ. >> Uh if we look at the example who he's going to use Jacob and Esau >> who's going to be a vessel of good and who's going to be a vessel of >> so I think that that's where the key difference is is what what he said there is he's pre pre-ordaining their purpose. Like this goes back he'll bring it up but you know Pharaoh and like that individual stuff like that. So like that is that that is one of the you know big questions on this is is this is this talking about the people's groups. Obviously God chose to pass on his promise through very selective means like he he had no qualms about saying that I'm going to pass on who you think I would pass my promise to >> and I'm going to carry it on with another another person another group. I think that's a big point that Paul is trying to make here on don't judge the Lord. He He has the ability and he has proven to be faithful even in his election to pass to pass his promise >> to not the ones that you thought that the promise was made for. >> Well, which you would go back and look at Israel. And so now it's like the promise is built for those who are in Christ, no longer the flesh. So if you look at a corporate aspect of it, it's those of in the Christian church. It's no longer a peoples of a people of a bloodline, but those of who are believing in Christ as the ultimate sacrifice. So the question then begs is election b is he now electing based upon when through creation those who are in the flesh or those who are in Christ. and women also and I don't know if begs is the right way because Jay Rynisner sat across the table and told me I didn't use that phrase right so now I just will never say it ever again because if like that begs the question and then I didn't beg the question so I don't >> begs to differ >> no you said you said begs [laughter] the question but I don't know if right or wrong yeah so we got we have to sorry Jay thing >> but then it goes okay does this just mean that because God is existing outside of linear time >> right so you know I talked about primordial real time like you know the first of time like we don't know that how much time was you know passed between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 like was it you know a millisecond was it you know millions of years we don't know >> did God already God already saw what they would become and what they would do and how they would operate and he wasn't working backwards and saying well all right since this guy's kind of a jack wagon we're going to make sure that he's you know on the bad side with the and then we're going to move it over this way uh with Jacob It's that he pre-ordained the role that they would play in God's chess game, right? Because there's this idea that God and Satan are in this like kind of like cosmic chess battle. >> No, it again, I keep going back to that episode. It is >> the dragon's on a leash. >> The great dragon of Revelation and Genesis 3, the dragon dragon. It's a dragon uh that it's I think it's a dragon, Howard. And so he's shush uh he he's he's on a leash, right? The the great dragon is on a leash, right? And he is doing everything. And you brought up Job, which was perfect because somehow someway, even though Lucifer was cast out, given a new name, cast out of the heavens, he still had face tof face access to speak to God and he spoke to God specifically about Job. And what is the oldest in terms of what we know? The oldest book of the Old Testament that anyone knows about when it was authored, the book of Job, right? It's impossibly old. We can't even fathom how old it is. And Satan had access to the throne of God to continue to have this conversation. But there's not a chess match going on. God doesn't have a plan B. This was all part of plan A >> somehow, which is enough to melt your brain forever, right? Like trying to figure out what exactly does that mean in terms of his sovereignty. And I don't have a a great cogent answer to that other than >> kind of have to reckon with what this says and, you know, then kind of try to surmize what it means. That's where I that's where I've fallen on so much of this is the concept that of course he knows and of course it was all done and of course it all is being done and of course it's all played out like to to God it he's not in where I'm experiencing this. And so like that's where I do think that um like we take our experiential version of like what what we're trying to interpret again like we're fish and water trying to describe to ourselves what wet means, >> right? >> And it's just so complicated because we're so intertwined in it that we can't really have the perspective at times to pull out and to see. And then we have verses like this. We have chunks of the scripture that like illuminate something to us and we're like, "Man, that's incredible." And we have other scripture that illuminate something else and we try to wrestle with those with those things and and and understand. Um, and sometimes like some things we're supposed to wrestle sometimes. I also think that it's like we have to also be in awe of somebody like Paul who very clearly understood it more than us, you know, and [laughter] he understood it more than anybody he was writing to. And that was frustrating for him at times and he just kept on saying the same stuff and they kept on taking one piece and weighing it more and he would have to be like, "Nope, nope, I didn't I didn't want you to do that." And so that's where uh it's it's fun and it's good and it's it's kind of that type two fun. It's like it's like it can be grueling to go through the scripture like that, but then in hindsight you kind of break away and you pause and you're like, "Man, that was awesome." Like there's something there that I don't understand. There's something there that that Ryan's more right about than I am. There's something there that I need to go research. And that's that's where stuff like this is is great. >> And so I there. Yeah. Last word and then we got to wrap. >> It's just where the Holy Spirit leads you. You know, it's like when I read this when I read Romans or Romans 9 the first time, like I didn't understand any of it. >> And then I read Romans 9 again, >> understand some certain points. It's like you talked about going back and like watching the Gladiator or like I'll go back and watch like like I watch this this will probably make me look dumb. I like to watch New Girl and I'll watch it like every I'll watch I love New Girl. So I'll watch I'll watch I'll watch I'll watch New Girl. girl got brought up. >> I will I will watch it. I I will watch it and I'll watch the whole season. Like I'll watch the whole series, >> but then I'll focus on a character each time because like dude, I love like like Schmidt and and uh Winston and I'll just like and I'll even look at their mannerisms when they're just sitting there not saying anything. >> But that's a new girl party or But here's the thing. When I read Romans 9, there's always a new thing that popped out at me. And I grew up very charismatic. I grew up a lot like um uh who in our group? Adam. Adam Smith. And Adam Smith and I were on the opposite sides of this whole election >> type of ideas because I grew up in the same path he grew up and I'd read nine and I wouldn't understand certain things. But then things started clicking and like I had to come away and say, "All right, Holy Spirit, like am am I taking my own flesh and trying to put my own flesh into this so I feel better about God's sovereignty or do I just need to dive into God's sovereignty and allow him to be the king and not me?" And this is how uh and this is how you know in terms of rapping um when you're bringing your flesh to the argument what you're doing is you're actually practicing something called standpoint epistemology. So epistemology is a study of things that are true essentially like how do you know your truth claims what undergurs those and a lot of people will determine what truth is based on their view right it's their standpoint from my standpoint and some people like to racialize that you know as a Native American uh gendered woman who's also queer and also this whatever this is how I see truth or whatever but your view of truth does not affect what is true so if Howard and I both uh have differing opinions on gravity. He doesn't think gravity's real uh because it's not explicitly talked about in the Bible. I think gravity's real. We both go outside and we jump. He's not going to go off into the ether and I'm not going to stay on the ground be based on our belief system. We will both jump and we will both come back down because what is true is gravity. We don't know why it's there. We don't know why guy God came up with it that way, but we just know that it is true. And so if you came from a more charismatic background, a more Armenian background, uh a more Calvinistic background, a more Church of Christ background, a more country music theology background, which is what I came from, >> what I try to do now, have not always tried to do that. I'm not approaching the study of the Bible in terms of how can I find more ammunition for my side >> because for me essentially growing up, you know, loose pagan, right? I I didn't have a team, right? Like I I didn't know the different denominations and what they believed and you know, oh this group's like if you're not reading the King James, you're not reading the actual Bible. And this group's like, hey, if you're not reading the original coin a Greek and Hebrew and ancient Galilean Aramaic, you're not getting the real thing. I don't have any of those teams, right? And some people, they grow up with this is our esquetology. This is what you will believe. This is our sotiology. How one is saved, this is what we will believe. Esquetology is a study of end times. And so whenever I'm coming to the text, what I am trying to do is reckon with part one. What does it say? >> Reckon with part two, what does it mean? >> And I guess if I were to add a part three, how does what I just read work into the entirety of scripture? >> Right? Just had a guy on uh recently where we were talking about different books of the Bible. And uh according to all this data, do y'all know what the least popular book of the Bible is? If you had to guess, >> Revelation. >> Revelation. Least popular. What do you think? >> Uh Romans. >> Romans. Least popular. Least popular. The one that's gone to the least. Research the least. >> Gone to. >> Yeah. The one that's the least least popular. If you want to change your answers, go for >> I want to change my answer. Uh I'm gonna say Deuteronomy. >> Deuteronomy. >> Hosea. >> Hosea. >> Fiman. >> Phileiman. Uh it's Oadiah. >> Okay. >> But let's say and I'm super tempted after we get done with Romans to go into Oadia just for the challenge. Just for the challenge of it. What if you approach Obadiah with what does this writing of this minor prophet describe about the character and nature of God and how does it relate to the gospel of Jesus Christ? >> So if you're trying to read from a reformed point of view, you're putting your thumb on the scale. If you're trying to read from Armenian point of view, thumbs on the scale. From a Methodist point of view, thumbs on the scale. From a Southern Baptist point of view, thumbs on the scale. What if we remove all those strictures like all the different strictctures that you would put in and your standpoint epistemology and just go? What does the text say? What does it mean? How does it describe the character nature of God and how does it end up with the gospel? >> Isn't that going to change how you read Oadiah when you're sitting there wondering what in the world are all these things happening to all these people with names that are hard to pronounce? Do do you think that that is like I I would assume in like my stance would be the best you could get to in my view is to acknowledge where your thumb is pressing. >> I think it's important you know where your thumb is, right? >> Yeah. I mean like to say like to say that I could not or that I don't have any >> impossible. That's impossible. Like even if you're a new Christian and like what do you do? You read something. Well, uh what is that new movie out? Sheep detective. Have you seen that? >> So like at one point the goat is walking the other sheep by the church and he's explaining what the church is and he is like pretty funny. >> What is that? That's where God lives. Oh cool. Yeah. Um they eat his son on Sundays. [laughter] >> It's like if you drink his blood. >> Yeah. They drink his blood. So like to that point like there's some of the scripture there's a reason why Paul you know encourages Timothy so much to like keep going and keep teaching and expressing and like growing people because even in even in you know Paul's time as soon as the church was started things got off track really quickly. I mean that I've referenced that book about church history last couple of weeks like man things got off really quickly. It also should make us reflect on the idea that I can't have a genuinely unbiased thought towards the Bible just because of my culture setting. Like I've been around it too much. The best I can do is to take moments of being like, man, I am applying that here and let me let me pull off to acknowledge where my applications or where my pressures come more than trying to be like I'm just going to I'm just not going to have them. At least like maybe I can recognize where they are. >> And the Days of Our Lives are currently out. There's another cultural ref. Any Day Days of Our Lives fans here at the table? Just me? >> No. Bam. Okay. We got new girl people right there. We got cheap. All right. But hey, we'll end with this. Another word from Paul. 1 Corinthians 13:12. For now we see in a mirror dimly and then face to face. Now I know in part, then I shall know fully even as I have been fully known. So, uh, I think for a lot of people trying to surmise who's got the right camp, whose flag is placed in the the correct space, it's like maybe you should focus on whether or not you're in Adam or in Christ. Your next step, making sure your spouse is in Christ. Next step after that, the children who you're supposed to be raising up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord that they are living in Christ. And then every other person, that is your focus. But guys, we're gonna have to leave it there. Come back here next week where we're going to start with Romans 9:14. Romans 9:14. But before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost. At Undaunted Life, our mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Do not forget about the Logos Undaunted Life Study Bundle. You heard the ad at the beginning. It is absolutely spectacular the amount of resources you get for what you have to pay for it. It's just fantastic. Crossway has created a forging table starter set. So, if you got a men's Bible study and you're a little bit stuck, five amazing resources that you can get at a 50% discount. And we are a donationbased ministry. So, if you want to donate to keep things like the forging table happening and helping us equip men around the globe to push back darkness undaunted.life/donate. Again undaunted.life/donate. You can check all of those links out in the show notes. Thank you everyone for listening to this episode. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive fivestar review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@undant.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook. And check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming. www.undaunted.life. The music on this podcast is the song Conqueror by the Christian metal band Void Awaken. Be sure to stream their music on Spotify, Apple Music, and wherever else you get your music. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the Lion of Judah. [music] >> [music]