Hey guys, real quick. So, I've talked to men literally all across the globe about where they're missing the mark and how they want to improve. They normally talk about how they wish they were in better shape. They wish they had a better relationship with their loved ones. They wish they had more success and influence at work and some other stuff like that. But here are some of the most common and biggest things that I hear. I wish I knew more about the Bible. I wish I could lead my family spiritually. I wish I could recall more scripture. I wish Bible study wasn't such a struggle. Well guys, I've got news for you. You don't have to keep wishing. It's time for you to start doing. It's time for you to stop wasting your time and money on stuff that has no eternal value whatsoever. I keep hearing you talk about how you want to be more biblically literate and spiritually resilient. And now is your chance to prove that you mean it. That's why I want you to take advantage of our partnership with the most powerful Bible software on planet Earth, Logos. So, Logos approached me about putting something together for the Undaunted Lifers out there, and we collaborated to create something I'm super pumped about, the Undaunted Life Study Bundle. So, here's the skinny on the bundle. There are over 200 individual resources and they include titles from authors like Vodie Bacham, Charles Spurgeon, RC Sproul, John MacArthur, Matt Chandler, Dietrich Bonhaofer, William Lane, Craig, Paul Washer, John Sto, Doug Wilson, Paul David Trip, Jipacker, and a whole bunch more. And there are so many helpful resources in there. There's Bibles, commentaries, Old and New Testament study guides, devotionals, systematic theologies courses dictionaries histories encyclopedias non-fiction books, and more and more and more. And here's the most insane part about this deal. If you were to buy each individual resource by yourself inside of Logos, it would cost you over $3,000. $3,000. But if you get the Undaunted Life Study bundle, you'll get all 200 plus resources for just $349.99. Guys, that's $3,000 worth of stuff for 350 bucks, guys. That's almost 90% off. And you know that you waste more than that on the hobbies that you have right now all the time. And these won't help you with your disciplehip and sanctification journeys, right? It's time to get real and take control of your Bible study and spiritual development. Click the link in the show notes for this episode. If you want the link, it's logos.com/undaunted life. That's www.llog.com/undauntedlife or the link in the show notes. It's super easy to sign up. Again, go to the show notes and click the link or go to logos.com/duntedlife. Sign up for Logos and get the Undaunted Life study bundle right now. This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. Welcome back to the forging table. The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, or physical resilience. At the forging table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience by digging into God's word. and we're welcoming all of you along to come on that journey with us. Nailed it. All right, that's Adam, [laughter] that's D, and that's Winkler. Uh, so Adam, do we live in a simulation or do we not live in a simulation? Because I wasn't going to distract us from the beginning, but how are you going to throw grenades like that in between recordings? I I so off air I just said if if we were to be living in a simil sim ass s ass s ass s ass s ass s ass s ass s ass s ass s ass simulation simuled allegedly allegedly the the one common example that I've looked at that I've been like oh man that is a little freaky is what was that one children's book it was the Baronstein bears right everyone the Baronstein Baron Baronstein barrenstein >> but when you go read it was actually Baron Stain clearly an a barren stain why do all of us remember okay or stain or stein. It was not an a s t a i n stain. It was not whatever it is that you surely I've been pondering this a little bit. So you grew up with what? >> Uh Baronstein, but I also remember watching a cartoon as a kid and I'm 90% sure they were the Baronstein Bears. >> A nar. See, so I'm here by spelled that way, but they didn't say it that way. So you might I'm I am the the senior statesman here by four years. Okay. I I I grew up Thank you for the respect the respect. I I grew up Baron the Baron Stain bears. So I wonder is it something as simple as like hey like we we we couldn't buy the Baron Stain. They didn't want to sell it. They weren't making any books anymore. So somebody came in and did the Baron Stein Bears and stole the idea. >> Maybe Gen X maybe just Gen X could spell. >> Is there any [laughter] is there any like existence? Surely there's going to be like chronologically like a transition somewhere that could be explained. >> Well, we're not going to. So, I'm plugging into a few different AIs, but it's the same thing so that we don't have to do that here. Y'all can do it on your own. Another thing that's happened in the last couple of weeks is this idea that there's a movie Shazam. Y'all remember Sinbad did a movie called Shazam when we were a kid. Apparently, you remember wrong because even Sinbad's kids are like, "No, that movie never existed. It's not an actual thing." But when people like look at it, I plugged it into a couple of AIs. It's apparently Baronstein with an A. So I guess we all just pronounce it uh wait many people this is Grock. Many people vivid vividly remember it as Baronstein with an E like Einstein or Frankenstein. So I guess it would be Baronstein bears how you remembered it. >> Baronstein. >> Baron. Okay. >> I remember it. >> This is one of the most famous examples of the Mandela effect. A widespread false memory. The Steen or Stein in ending is far more common in English surnames. So brains often autocorrect the less familiar baron stain to the expected pattern. >> So the matrix is real is what we're saying. We're actually in two. >> Funny thing about that, I have some blue pills and some red pills. >> This is [laughter] this is the movie Shazam starring comedian Sinbad as a 1990s genie does not exist. >> Who said it? Who's that? >> That's that's Gemini. Like I'm like I remember like you said I've never seen >> I could have sworn he was in a movie that had a he was a genie. >> What is that guys? What is that? I remember it too. I can I can remember seeing >> like a poster with him like this. >> Right. >> Right. Not Kazam, that's Shaq, but Shazam, which was Simbad. >> It does. >> You plug it into what what did you type into >> I'm send you on your phone. >> I don't know. Uh whatever. Sure, I can get chat GPT. >> Okay, you do chat. Do you have another a different AI? >> Okay, so here you go. Why people remember it? Kazam, >> right? Which is >> and then Sinbad's 90s look, which was like baggy genie pants. >> No. >> Um, >> that's not what I remember. I'm going to plug it into Grock. >> That's just what it's saying is like why people have kind of formulated that. >> But it doesn't m even if that's true, it doesn't make sense that there's so many people who remember the same thing. That's the part that's weird about >> that is weird. Because I remember I remember that, >> right? And I can even remember I want to say he was wearing purple like it was a purple outfit on the movie cover from what I recall. >> Grock says it don't exist. >> That's bananas. >> No internet movie database in and you know what one of its explanations is? This is a famous example of the Mandela effect. >> Right >> there we are again. The widespread false memory. >> There are people watching this episode right now going this episode's fake. This is AI. >> [laughter] >> This isn't actually happening. Actually, >> I mean, is the Mandela effect somewhat similar to Dja Vu or totally different? >> How many of y'all have just been absolutely knocked on your butt by some kind of Dja Vu thing happening? Okay, more than I've like, which by the way, underrated Denzel Washington movie, Dja Vu, check it out. But >> yeah, it's an actual movie though. It does exist. You can go watch it. Uh, it did actually [laughter] happen. This isn't a deja vu, but there are times where I'm like I I experience it and I immediately recognize I have experienced this exact same thing in this exact same setting. And I'm like, was this a dream? Was this a premonition? Is this just a similar occurrence in a similar place? But it has 100% happened to me before. >> Not not to mention that even most scientists and doctors will say like, "We don't understand the brain. We don't know how the brain works. We have absolutely no idea." >> But here here's a prescription that'll alter your brain chemistry. [laughter] What could possibly go wrong? >> Right. Uh yeah, that's a great point. >> Yeah, [clears throat] we don't get it. It's too hard. >> Yeah, there's a problem with your brain. Oh, can you show me the brain scan? Didn't do one of those. Here's some pills. Yeah, [laughter] that this is all going to go perfectly uh good. But speaking of that, let's just transition out cuz I made everybody in the audience mad. By the way, Lord of the Rings is terrible. Pit bulls are wild animals. So, let's uh move [laughter] on with everything else. Oh, before we get there, just so y'all cuz y'all were castigating me for some of my choices in my top 10. You even like, oh, Titanic's in your top 10. >> I would probably put No Country back in there cuz that was my old list. But quick Mount Rushmore movies if you just had it right on the spot. Top four movies. Go. >> Lord of the Lord of the Rings. >> You have to say which one. >> The top four. >> It's my number one. >> Top four. >> Oh, I did not. >> But I look at I look at I look at all of them this. It's one big movie. So I just say the Lord of the Rings. One big movie. >> All 14 hours of the extended editions. >> Braveheart. >> Um, okay. Hold on. I had this earlier. Uh, oh, Ben her. >> Okay. And then uh probably probably Field of Dreams. >> Okay. Want to have a catch? >> Don't do that. >> Over here crying. I'm going [laughter] cry, too. So, it'll be both of us. All right. >> Braveheart's on mine. >> Okay. >> Heat. >> He Heat's so good. >> Oh, good. >> Uh >> he just watched Heat for the first time like couple months ago. >> It was good. Not a top five, but it's good. >> It It's like you just keep watching it. Like, uh it's crazy. >> So, it's a Braveheart Heat. Um, probably Godfather part two and then man, I I gotta reach into like something that's not as serious as that. Maybe Royal Tin Bombs. >> Okay. The the sheer lack of Gladiator from the first two is absolutely flumxing. [laughter] So, Adam, if you wouldn't mind saving us. >> Gladiator, Shaw Shank, >> uh, The Banded Brother series, and man, Interstellar's gotten there for me. And I'm going [clears throat] to put a real I'm going to go ahead and go with number five as in Glorious [inaudible]. Yeah. >> Something about that movie and a lot of Quinton Tarantino stuff. Whatever for whatever reason, I'm just drawn to it. It's just so different. >> What were you saying last week? >> It's the the dialogue. >> Yes. >> When you the interplay between car characters and Kristoff Waltz in Inglorious >> where cuz Quint opening scene of Englorious [inaudible] is one of the most tense >> and Tarantino said he wasn't going to make the movie. If he couldn't get the right guy to play this part and he just finally got to the place where he's like, I just can't make a movie with Hans London. I'm not going to be able to find him. >> That dude. Yes. Where he's in the room and the Jews are underneath and you see that man's face and you can te tell that he's breaking him down. Oh my gosh. I don't know how you bottle that up. I don't know how you put that in camera, but it's something special. And like once you real Maybe the older I get or something, you start realizing it's like [clears throat] I don't want just mindless stuff thrown at me. I want something that has some depth to it. And you see that passion and you see that depth and it's just it it catches you. I mean, I feel the same same thing in a lot of Shaw Shank stuff. I love that >> because here's the thing about Heat. The first time you watch it, you're just kind of blown away by by the story, by the ride that they're on. The greatest shooting like shootout scene I've I've ever seen. Like the it sounded amazing. Like Val Kilmer, not a huge part, but a great part. when you find out that he got paid way less, but all he wanted was to make sure that his picture would be on the movie poster between Alpuccino and Robert Dairo and they went they went for it like putting him up there. >> But the more times you watch that film, you see the dichotomy between Robert Dairo and Alpuccino. One guy supposedly on the side of good, one guy supposedly on the side of bad. They're the same guy. They're the same exact guy. They're just on different uh sides here. And then obviously, you know, some of the the high scenes and the chases and all that. It's just it's unbelievable. >> Isn't that Michael Man? >> Did he direct that? Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Very good. Well, hey, let's go and get into the scripture. But, uh, we now have y'all on the record, so the people in the comment section make fun of them for, uh, the movies that they choose to watch. >> I'm going to get roasted moms, but it's so good. >> It was a bold move, Cotton, uh, for for throwing that one out there. >> I haven't. Have you seen Death of Stalin? Sorry. I know that that's >> No. >> Oh, you Okay. You would like it? >> You would very much like it. >> Okay. >> It's actually one of the funniest movies I've seen probably in the past 10 years. You guys watch the Tom Hanks series? Uh, World War the World War II. >> We just finished it last night. It's so good. >> I'm telling you. >> I know. I want to watch it. The uh Guadal Canal, no idea about any of that. >> Yeah. Most people don't >> in North Africa. No idea about any. I mean, I knew we were in North Africa, but that series was so good to kind of explaining the global implications that were >> Yeah. Most people don't realize what happened in 1943 and what happened on the Eastern Front with the Russians and that the Russians beat him back and so like Hitler Hitler they were he was already on his heels big time by the time we got to 944 1944 things were almost over by the now that doesn't mean that we were able to just run over them. They still caused lots of problems but still you know they were in full retreat on the Eastern Front in late 1943 1944 >> Stalenrad went poorly [laughter] and didn't go well. >> Undaunted wife made this uh comment. She was talking about how um she remembers a lot of those details even about there was a line, a specific line uh it may have been in Africa or somewhere like that but there was a line that was set up by the Germans and she remember that line. But one of the great things about that series is they have so many like map renderings of you know the the Axis you know powers doing this the allies doing this and moving into these areas and then the colors are changing as they're moving across areas and so you're like okay >> cuz Terry Fakes must have been an associate producer on >> shout out Terry Fakes. Uh but no, like even just Japan because you think about modern day Japan, you just think about the the main island, you don't think about the entire uh you know swath of islands that they had including Okinawa, how far they had pushed into Manuria and China and those different areas. And so like when you talk about Imperial Japan, it just it's hard to do that if you don't have like iodetic memory because you've memorized what a globe looks like and how how far people had to go. But even just, you know, the war ends in Europe and then you send some of those same people straight to Japan. Yeah. That was not a small thing and just the logistics of the whole thing was preposterous. >> Well, and and to go fight uh go fight a people who there surrender wasn't a thing. >> Oh man. Yeah. >> Like and that that that show did a really good job of kind of of bringing that out because of course of course Japan's like when it's it's it's uh I'm bring shame on my family if I surrender. It's like they're not going to. And speaking of surrender, we, you know, it's a great time to bring up the Jews complete inability to surrender themselves to Jesus. >> There's your grass [laughter] transition. I did it. I'm very proud of myself for that. >> But I'm going to ruin it because they're [laughter] going to say one more thing. Well, actually, Adam's going to say one more thing cuz he was shopping at the bed there for a second. >> The the Well, yeah. >> Can you just do it again? Just do it again. All right. Hold it. >> I'm going to holster it. I'm going to wait. The only other thing the only other thing that struck me about that show was the indiscriminate amount of carpet bombing that just happened all over the just laying laying the entire cities to waste over and over and over. We did it. Japan did it. Uh >> German the Germans everybody just >> just crush everybody and everything was just shocking. I will I will say this, one of the things that was >> sobering because we have this, you know, we're 80 years past all this and so you'll have what's that guy's name? Daryl Cooper or whatever. He's like Tucker Carlson's favorite historian, uh, a historian who's never written a book about history, but, you know, we should apparently listen to him. He said that, you know, the the real villain of World War II was actually Winston Churchill. And you have, you know, even Tucker Carlson wondering aloud like America can't be the good guys because of what we did in Nagasaki and Hiroshima. But then what they neglect to talk about at all is I think there were 50,000 wounded and killed Americans just on Okinawa, just to get Okinawa, which was how far from mainland. Uh and so the the conservative estimates were that Americans were going to lose a million wounded a million casualties, killed and wounded just going into mainland Japan. >> Mhm. because we in the entirety of the war uh you know in the Pacific and in Europe we lost about a million casualties as as the Americans. The the Russians lost like 10 15 times that. But this this idea that [clears throat] if we had to go into Japan and fight them like they did on Okinawa, going into the tunnels and going into these different places and moving things across and also the amount of civilians, the Japanese civilians, because they were all willing to die for the emperor >> and they would have had to they you would have had to have killed them all. And so it's like when people talk about the lesser of two evils and they just look at that as like a tremendous blight on America. It's like, you know, with with two bombs and those civilians killed, you ended the entire war. And so we're not talking about and it was a good thing. That's not what anyone's saying, but it's like compared to the alternative, is that what we really want to say that you wouldn't go back and make the same decision? >> Yeah. I I think it helped that, you know, the purpose of dropping the bombs was just not some bloodthirsty, you know, >> Yeah. wararmonger thing. wararmongering thing that like we're going to try to kill as many of them as we can. I don't think that was that was the goal. It was obvious. It seemed like we were backed into a corner and we did what we had to do. Again, we didn't freaking start it. Wasn't our decision. >> Yeah. You focus in the eye that we're going to chop your head off. >> Mercy. Mercyy's a hard thing to kind of comprehend. Uh, I think you know when you start looking at some of the really difficult decisions you have to make such as like you know nuclear bombs or might I say mercifully bringing forth a savior for a people who need one. [laughter] >> Okay. Uh, it was >> I'm getting there. It's not as good as my surrender. Keep going. >> I don't think I have any more. Kyle [laughter] I run out of steel. Hey, that's all right. You know, >> I'm more of a relay racer. All right. >> That's okay. [laughter] Uh, you're the Yeah, I don't think you would have been the guy bringing it home for the last 100 meters. But [laughter] that's okay. It worked out okay because we are going to transition into talking so uh about you know getting into Romans 9 again. We were talking about the references to the book of Hosea in chapter 9 25 and 26 and then Paul just goes right into this description of Isaiah and so he's looking at things that are in Isaiah 10 and Isaiah 9. And so uh Dan if you'll actually hit uh because I think you'll be reading ESV just read 27 and 28 and that's where we'll kick off. >> Okay. And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved. For the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay. >> Go ahead. 29. Yeah. >> And as Isaiah predicted, if the Lord of hosts had not left left us offspring, we would have been like Sodom and become like Gomorrah. >> So, um there's a lot that can be discussed here. So if you look at Isaiah uh 10, so the direct reference is from 22 and 23, but I think it's important to read uh 20- 23. So I'll read it here. In that day, the remnant of Israel and the survivors of the house of Jacob will no more lean on him who struck them, but will lean on the Lord, the holy one of Israel, in truth. A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God. For though your people Israel will be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will return. Destruction is decreed overflowing with righteousness. For the Lord God of hosts will make a full end as decreed in the midst of all the earth. But the the thing that really stood out for me me getting into the latter part of even verse 28 is you know for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay. You know it's interesting you know we were just talking about what did FDR say about the the war? It was unconditional surrender. So when you talk about fully and without delay this is completely and finally this is not we're going to give you everything we got. we're going to knock you down and you're not going to want to get up. No, this is complete. This is final. Um, and that's really what's being uh discussed and described here. >> Yeah. There's there's not going to be a doover. It's final. This is it. You don't you don't get a second chance here. And I I also think >> going back like we did last time, we have to remember where we're at. You know, we've learned earlier in chapter nine that um in the Old Testament it said, "The older will will serve the younger Jacob I loved. Esau I hated. I will have mercy on whom I have mercy. I will have compassion on who whom I have compassion. So then he has mercy on whomever he wills and hardens whomever he wills and he's continuing to speak to the Jews here. That's why he continues to refer back to the Old Testament and he's look and we're coming through this whole difficult section about election. And now we're at the point to where he's saying though the number of the sons of Israel will be as the sand of the sea only a remnant of them will be saved. It also I flash forward to Matthew 7:13 and 14 which we start talking about the narrow and the wide gate. You know the the gate is wide for those to uh be in sin but the gate to get to heaven is narrow and only few will go through it. Right. So it's it's leading to the same thing where we're talking about only a remnant. It's not going going to be everybody. >> Yeah. And I think it's it's important here. So Paul is referring to something that the prophet Isaiah wrote down. And so when he's talking about Sodom and Gomorrah, I think it's important for modern Christians to remember why were Sodom and Gomorrah destroyed? Because I've heard prominent pastors talk about, you know, hey, I'm not going to yell about the things the Bible only whispers about. It's like one of the primary reasons Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed was because they indulged in sexual immorality like they were breathing air, right? It was just kind of like the air that they breathed. It was just something that they did. And you know, I'm going to assume it wasn't as quiet as a whisper when those two places were absolutely destroyed from by burning balls of fire from the sky. And so I think that's important for us. Why do we think Paul brought up this specific reference that Isaiah was calling back to in his prophecy? It's not an accident. >> I wrote down no one spared. I wish I'd gone back to look at this, but I can remember in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. I should know I should know who this was. Is it Jacob or who? Someone is speaking back and forth to God. >> It's Lot, I think. >> Is it Lot? Is it lot about how many the number of righteous >> the number of like can I can can we save uh if I find you know 10 10 if I can find and god says yes if you can find and it just becomes less and less because there's none there there's none no one's there and so that's why I wrote no one spared that should be pretty shocking to the Jews uh mentality here because it's like >> you know if they can remember that part of the story it's like The rem there's not much of a remnant left. >> It was Abraham, by the way, though. >> It was Abraham, not Jacob. >> Abraham debated with God about Sodom. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Like, and then I forget where it started. I think it was 100 and then went down to 10 or whatever, >> right? And and so it just gets smaller and smaller and smaller, right? >> I think Well, I think one of the interesting things you point out there is, okay, can you find 10 righteous men? Okay. Now, >> what made a man righteous back then? >> Because there was no law. >> Oh, yeah. >> There was no law. >> Mhm. I mean, we're we're we're saying, you know, it was their sexual immorality that got them destroyed, but there was no technical law against any of that. So, what would have made someone righteous? >> I mean, it does say that Abraham's faith would be counted towards him as right. >> There you go. So, it's his faith that actually counts here, >> right? >> That's when you actually start looking at again just going back to what is Paul drilling into the Jewish people right now. What's he drilling into Israel? You all have been working your way towards salvation and it doesn't work. Even even our forefathers, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, even Moses in the beginning, they did not have the law. You guys have been trying to work your way into heaven. And yet, your forefathers of the faith >> only had their faith. There was no righteousness that was counted to them other than their faith in God. >> Well, isn't that Romans 1 to where it's like we have written on our hearts, correct? Uh, you know, the the law of God and those types of things. And so, it's >> uh, you know, even pre-law. Yeah. >> That would it would make sense. >> Well, I mean, pre-word, I mean, look, I mean, look, we Bible is a living word of God. Uh, I'd say nothing other than that. But God, the Bible is not the only way to know God either. I mean, God has given us some beautiful, wonderful things in order to know him better. We He has given us creation. He has given us children. He has given us marriage. I mean, there's all these things that he's brought forth that just in his sheer love and his sheer sovereignty that we have the ability to know him in a way that no other part of his creation does. >> Humanity alone gets that gift. >> Well, and even like what does law do? It just helps you name a sin. A name's a sinful proclivity. Um, so even before a law is, you know, described or written down or something like that, you're basically just giving a name to something that we already knew was wrong. Again, kind of, you know, hearkening back to what we see in Romans 1. >> I think to piggyback on what you were saying as if we were to continue this to get to verse 30, like that's we're getting right down the same road of like Abraham and Isaac and and the Jews being lost. I mean, it's titled >> Gohead. Go ahead and read 30. Let's just read the rest of the chapter. So, start in verse 30. >> Yeah, it's titled Israel's unbelief in the ESV. So, verse 30. What shall we say then? And I I'm going to have to stop there. So, what shall we say then? Okay. Paul has said that many times. And I I did want to point out something when when I read that. If if we go back to uh 9:14, what shall we say then? Is there an injustice on God's part? By no means. Okay, there's a by no means there. And then let's come down and then we look at uh let's see uh nope, let's continue. So there is there is a by no means there. So a lot of time there's three or four other references here where Paul's repeatedly saying what shall we say? There's a by no means. There is not a but here. There is not a by no means. It's what shall we say then? If if he's consistent with what he's been saying, he like flips it. Okay. He doesn't flip it here. So what he's about to tell is right to the right to the Jews. What shall we say then? There's not a by by no means. The Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it. That is a righteousness that is by faith. But that is Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching the law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone as it is written, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, a rock of offense, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame." So, I wonder if the Jews would have heard this and said, "What shall we say then?" and expected this by no means or this but being there. And it's not there. He immediately goes into >> you guys have gotten it wrong. You've gotten it wrong from the beginning and you guys are looking towards something that's not there. You're looking inwards. You're looking to a righteousness based on this law that you thought brought salvation and it doesn't. And instead you're looking the wrong way. And because of that, the Gentiles have it and you guys don't. >> Right. >> When even here the fact that he's So that that last part that you read, Adam, that's referring to Isaiah 8:14 and 28:16. I mean, this is a foreshadowing like I I don't know how I can't remember how long it was uh before Jesus came that Isaiah was written down, but this is Isaiah predicting that Israel is going to reject the Messiah. Y >> right. And and it's like even the people whose job it was was to be ready for the coming of the Messiah were the head people of the committee like trying to make sure that Jesus was killed. And I mean the the stumbling stone like the whole idea is that you could be righteous because of the law. That you could follow the law enough and hey we're going to even invent some more laws so we can even be be even more righteous. But it was like they were trying they they weren't holding to the law in order to serve God. It was because they wanted control over their own righteousness. Yeah. Like they wanted some hand of control over it. And again, it's it's almost like a like you're taking the air out of their, you know, out of their raft a little bit by talking about, oh, you tried it with the law, but it's by faith. Oh, and some of the Gentiles have already gotten that already got that squared away. And as the Jew, you're trying to undo, but wait, I've been holding all these laws and I' I've I've kept clean and ceremonial this, and you know, I Sabbath and I do all these different things, but so what am I supposed to do now? >> Yeah. Imagine imagine the frustration you would have. Okay. Right now, if somebody comes back and says, "By the way, you Christians, you have this wrong." [laughter] And now I need to reel you back. And by the way, uh, you have like what you think has made you holy and righteous doesn't. >> Um, I was listening to, um, I saw a clip the other day from Theo Vaughn, okay? and he was talking about this like he you know he's occasionally dipped his toe in the water of maybe I'm on a faith journey and he said he was reading John five and it's the story of the man at the pool >> and he asked the question yes uh and he asked the question he asked the question Jesus to the man do you want to be healed >> okay so he asked the question do you want to be healed and von's going I'm really wrestling with that question because do I mean do I want to be healed? Like it sounds like I'm going to have to change a lot. >> And so now you start taking that same context into here again. I I I look at this is Paul is >> Paul's working on the resurrection of the Jews right now. That that's what he's doing. And he goes in here and he says, "Look, I know that I I know this is counter to everything that you've been taught taught by your parents, your your grandparents, your rabbis, everybody. This is counter to all of that. But I'm asking, do you want to be healed?" And there are people there, and you would say even outside of the remnant of Israel, there are people there that say, "I really don't. I don't want to be healed. I want to I think I can get there on my own. That that spoke to me and convicts me in a way so much because I deal with people when I try and talk to people about Christ. How often are you talking to them? And it's like, look, you're not painting this picture of how they've gotten there. You're not understanding that. I'm so interested in getting my message of the gospel across that you've not bothered to understand. Why do you even think you're good? Mhm. >> Why do you think you're righteous? What makes you go to heaven? What is all of this built on top of? And what Paul's doing is I'm simultaneously feeding into your history and how you think >> and then building on top of that that solid foundation that you've had. I'm now building on top of that with Christ who's now a new cornerstone for you. Do you guys ever find yourself like reading these kinds of things and like it's so easy to be like, "You idiot Jews. You [laughter] freaking Pharisees." Like over and over. How could you be so dumb? I say that all the time in my head. And then I just feel like I eventually have a pause like, "Adam, you're kind of an idiot, too." >> We talk about complete idiot. >> We talk about predecision on this show a lot. >> I have preddecided a long time ago that I'm the And so when I'm reading this, [laughter] I'm like, I would have been worse than Peter. I would have been worse than these Jews. Because you know, people talk about Jordan Peterson's brought this up before is everybody looks back at slavery and they think that they would have been one of the abolitionists. Everyone looks back at Nazi Germany and they would have been the one, you know, cuz if you've ever read uh Ordinary Men, that's about the Polish police force that they went from just being normal Polish guys to they were eventually part of the killing squads. They were taking out women and children naked into the woods and you know you shooting them in the back of the head and throwing them into mass graves. And it's like how did you get there? And it was like well little by little and then all at once. And so it's like if you ever think of yourself as the one that would have been standing up for righteousness and justice more than likely you would have been one of the people that would have just fallen right in line. >> I feel like I have I try to have that check with myself all the time because it's just like dude yeah this seems pretty simple. Seems pretty straightforward. Yeah. I got this. I got it. No, you don't. >> No. >> No. And and it and you know the Jewish people, they've got a history of forgetting. And even to the point where God's like like telling them, hey, you need to like you need to build these little piles of rocks to remind you of things because you're going to forget, right? And and it's like I'm the exact same way. I'm like >> if if I would just take some time to and when I start to get anxious about what is going to happen next, right? It's it's it's next with my business, next with my family, next in my marriage, next with kids, next next in retirement, and all these different things. If I would just take a second to look over my shoulder >> and look back and see this pattern of God's provision, like I wouldn't get into I I wouldn't be trapped in into all of this trouble of fear and anxiety. And I I feel like when we look look forward, we imagine like life is this, you know, this where we can't see around the bend, right? And it's like we get around the bend and then there's another bend and that that's that is life >> ahead. But then when you look back, it's a perfectly straight line. >> That's right. You can only connect the dots looking backwards. But also, it's like, >> don't don't we all cuz you talked about like connecting dots and all that. Don't we all want credit for past righteousness? >> Right. I'll only speak for me. I may have been in some fights uh with someone who will remain namely uh namely nameless uh my wife undaunted wife and I'm like >> but for the last several weeks I've da da da da look how good look how well behaved I've been in the past look at the list I check all boxes but then it's like look dummy in this exact moment you didn't do the righteous or good thing you didn't act as a good head of this household you didn't love me as Christ love the church she's never thrown that in my face but it's like we want credit and so If you're a Jew, >> yeah, >> you want credit for all the time you did. >> You feel like the way that you've been living and you are looking at your life through your lens of how you've been uh, you know, uh, applying the law that you have like an inherent claim on God's mercy. >> Uh, yes. Well, and it's interesting. So, their nomenclature at the time, okay, the is Israelites called themselves, and you can go back in Isaiah, they actually were started referring to themselves as the elect. Mhm. >> They were the elect of God. >> They referred to themselves as that. And now you have a again a former Jew. I mean, just think of the relationship chips that Paul is cashing in here. It's like my family, my friends that I was going to be a Pharisee. Okay. I was schooled to be a [clears throat] >> Wasn't he a Was he a Pharisee? A Pharisee? >> Okay. He officially was. >> Okay. Well, yes. Okay. So, um, he's he's on this journey and he's literally going in to Jewish people and saying, "Yeah, everything I was all about, like just a little bit ago, I was wrong and so were you." [clears throat] >> I mean, imagine I mean, look, I bet you every single one of us probably has some family member or a very close friend that is just like, "Man, I would just love for them to come come to know Christ." Yeah. And when you talk to them, they go, "But wait, man. I've been everywhere you've been." >> Yeah. Right. >> I've been I've been step by step. I know all the stupid stuff you've done, and you're over here telling me that you get to be different now. And somehow somehow this guy Jesus somehow has made you different than me. It's like I know your history. Well, it it makes Paul the perfect vessel for the message, though. Yes, it does. Because >> uh Pharisee of Pharisees, uh uh was a a pupil of Gil. He was uh a Roman citizen. Like, you know, something that, you know, came out throughout his his ministry and things like that. So, he was the perfect vessel for this cuz I've thought about this before because, you know, one of my bugaboos is when people talk about the Inagram and all that, but whenever I taught my Sunday school class, I don't know if you were in there. I don't think you were at at our church yet, >> but I taught on the inagram and I knew there were people in the room that really love the inagram and they read the Inagram books and they're like, "This is great. It's a great tool." All those types of things. >> They thought the exact same things that I thought. And so I'm doing this presentation in my Sunday school talking about the demonic origins of where the enagram came from cuz I went down a rabbit hole and like I finally had to just cut myself off and research cuz I would find an entire new sect of thing and I'm like, "Oh, it's going to be another week for me to just get down to this bottom." So I finally cut it off. But what I had to to set the stage to everybody in the room is I said, "Who's heard of the enagram?" "Ah, raise your hand. Who's taken the test?" And almost everybody raised their hands and all that. And then I go, "Who has made money presenting the Inagram to people?" My hand was the only one that was raised because I was using the Inagram to do uh consulting for seuite executives, helping them learn how to communicate with all the people in the seauite and help, you know, meetings be more efficient, all those different things. And so I'm like, what I'm about to say is going to be very uncomfortable for some of you. I am the chief sinner when it comes to this particular thing because I was propagating it as this morally neutral, you know, great thing that should be used not only in interpersonal relationships but in marriages. The church should get behind this. And so I think that that's almost what Paul's saying here is like, hey, I'm a super Jew, right? I'm I'm like super duper Jew and y'all are worried about the fact that I'm telling you to do unjew stuff like to go backwards and all that. It's like I am I am so much more like qualified to be mad about this. I'm more qualified to be mad than you are. But it's just true. So I got to tell you. >> And dude, what you said, it resonates with what he said in chapter 7 about himself. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do what I want. I I do not do what I want, but I do the very things I hate. And he continues, uh, for I delight in the law of God in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive of the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am. This is Paul introspectively speaking about himself. >> Well, and in in First Corinthians, you know, in the first four chapters, he's really, you know, in in Corinth, there's there's kind of these sex forming, right? I follow Apollos. I follow Paul. and and and Paul is like speaking out against that. He's he's like saying, "Hey, like like Apollos planted, I water like God gives the growth, right? Like he is the king." And I love it when uh we were talking about this in church. I think Mark was talking about it. Was it last week? Not this, >> not today. It was last week where he was talking about the qualities, >> the five qualities of healthy church. He went over the first the first couple. And it's and it's uh man like like leadership that puts themselves in the position of of saying like hey like by the way like I'm your pastor but I'm proof that we need a savior. >> Like that that needs to be something like with your like with your friend. It's like hey all that crap that you know that I've done is proof >> that I need a savior. >> Yeah. >> It's proof that I can't get there by myself. Well, it's Wes Huff's thing when he was on Joe Rogan and it was such a great line where he's like, you know, basically talking about the law. He's like, the law is a mirror. You can't use the mirror to clean the mud off your face. It only gets smeared around and make things worse. And so, cuz he was kind of going at Jordan Peterson a little bit, saying, "Hey, Jordan Peterson's more like kind of a fan of Jesus. He's more of a moralist than he is, you know, than a follower of Christ and those types of things." And so, he has a reverence for Jesus, but he has not, you know, transferred his faith into Jesus for his sin debt. And I think a lot of it comes down to even all the stuff that we're talking about comes down to zeal. And guys, it may seem like we're we're covering a huge chunk here, but really from verse 27 into the early part of chapter 10, uh well actually um uh Jay, go and read the first two verses of chapter 10. Sure. Because it really brings Hosea and then, you know, basically all three or four sections of Isaiah that we saw through the end of chapter 9. Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. >> So zeal, there are people that will evaluate your rightness based on how much zeal you show. So in modernity, there are people that are like, "This person must be right." Because they're yelling the loudest. They're yelling their position the loudest. uh they're not evaluating whether or not what the person is saying is able to be substantiated or is has any, you know, evidentiary basis whatsoever. They're basically just like, well, that person's really passionate, so how can I say they're wrong? It's the same thing you'll hear talk about. Hey, Bernie Sanders has been saying the same thing since like the 1970s. The guy's so consistent. Yeah, he's consistently stupid about what he said. He is very, very consistent about believing the exact wrong things about how a society should be run. The fact that he's believed it for 50 years is not a feather in his cap. It covers him in, you know, elephant dung. Like that's that's essentially what we look at. >> Muhammad Ali line. If I had not changed my viewpoint over 50 years and I would have wasted my life. >> Oh, I haven't heard that. That's good. >> But I mean, look at I tell people all the time, you should look back on who you were 5 years ago and like wait, I I believed that. I thought that I wore those. Like it it should be like you should be evaluating yourself as you go and be embarrassed. But like zeal and sincerity is not descriptive of how righteous you are. Especially since there were a lot of well-meaning, quote unquote, good-hearted Jews that were very fervently following the law. Y >> but the message is not, hey, whether you grudgingly followed the law or you did it with all kinds of passion and energy, that puts you in a different category. No, it puts you in the category of lost. And if you don't have grace through faith, you're lost. You know, I wrote down to what you're saying. I wrote down visible versus invisible church because I I just saw uh Howardon talk about this and I guess this was originally proposed by Augustine. And so the difference being the visible church, you know, someone who has zeal for God. It appears that they have zeal for God. You see the church, it's everybody in it and you know, it's all 5,000 people, but the invisible church being the ones who truly believe that none of us really know who that who that is. And so I think some of this could be, you know, to the Jews, but some of it's also to, you know, us today. >> I one of the things that because when I read the second verse, the very last word in here was knowledge. >> Yeah. >> I was not expecting that because if you look at it, for I bear witness that they have a zeal for God. Um, but not according to knowledge. I to me it's like why not faith? I think it's knowledge that faith is what makes the difference, right? That >> is that the dot is that the connect dots I'm not not connecting? >> That's what that's what I think he means in my brain is that like he doesn't mean knowledge of the law cuz obviously he they knew the law inside and out. It's like they're so they think they have the knowledge. They have the zeal for God, but the knowledge that they're missing is the knowledge that it's actually faith. Well, in and the the footnote for that verse for that that last passage of uh verse two of chapter 10 tells us to go back to chapter 9:31 which is but that Israel would purs who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching the law. And so they thought the attainment of the law and their knowledge of the law is what would preserve them or save them. But even going back up just, you know, half a paragraph into the the same letter, it says it's like, you know, they thought their pursuit of the law would lead to righteousness. That was the knowledge basis that they gave for their pursuit. >> Well, he he answers it in verse three also because it says, "For I bear them witness that they have zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For which is like a verse three and four." >> Yeah. Which is a continuation of verse two, but not according to knowledge. Verse three, for being ignorant of the righteousness of God and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. For Christ is the Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. And so that's, you know, not according to knowledge. According to not not having knowledge of what the righteousness of God and where it comes from and whose righteousness it is because the Jews are still stuck up stuck on that they can obtain righteousness by, you know, the works and the law and following all of those things. >> Yeah. I think uh one of the commentaries that I read uh actually referred back to Matthew 23:23 as like a really good example of the zeal that they would be talking about. So uh I'll read it. Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, for you pay the tithe of mint and anise and cumin and neglected the weightier matters of the law, justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done without leaving the others undone. blind guides who strain out at night and swallow a camel. I'm sorry, strain out a gnat and swallow a camel. So, it's it's interesting to me. It's like he you read these verses, you when you read Matthew 23, he's show it's like this is a perfect example of what they're talking about. Look how zealous you are. You're giving all of this. You're giving mint. You're giving a niche. You're giving cumin. You're doing your tithes. You're paying so much. You're putting so much in. And by the way, he also says without leaving those others undone. So you're still supposed to do those. Okay? Like let's not let's let's make sure we're clear here. This is not an anti-tiththing message that Jesus is delivering. You should be doing that. But you're neglecting the weightier matters, >> justice and mercy and faith. And so whenever I looked at like pointing that out, you can go, okay, this is the example of how zealous a Pharisee could be towards the Lord. It would cost a lot. But the one thing that they were not willing to pay was their own pride. is that I am willing to actually I'll give up a small fortune to say that to show that I follow the law and that I am a good and righteous person. And it's like, all right, now drop your pride. No, I can't do that. >> It's like the sort of like the parable of the rich young rich young ruler that you're talking about. You know, I've done all of these things. I've followed all of those from from the beginning. And Jesus actually doesn't correct him, >> right? He's not on contrary. >> He doesn't correct him and say that he's wrong. He just says, "Oh, really? So, you've done everything? How about you sell all of your things and give them to the poor?" And he left. >> Right. [laughter] >> Yeah. You know, I I I had written a note just just in kind of making the transition from 9 to 10 because in in when I was reading it, I kept reading it and and there's a pretty stark transition, right? So, like in nine, Paul, he's written probably the strongest passage on divine election in scripture, right? And then he follows that up by saying that he is praying for unbelievers to be saved. >> Mhm. >> You know, so if Paul believes so strongly in God's sovereignty over salvation, like why did he still pray for people's salvation? >> You know, it's like it's a big transition. And and what I what I kind of as I as I thought about that, it's I wrote um because God's sovereignty includes the means by which he saves people, right? prayer, preaching, witness, and hearing the gospel. Um, so it's it's God's sovereignty is is uh the way and our prayer and preaching and witnessing is the means. >> So I I have to ask a question because I get hung up on sovereignty a little bit because I think you maybe I just want to make sure that I understand the way that you all are thinking about sovereignty because I know I'm probably the guy over here on an island right now. So when you all talk of God's sovereignty, is this a deterministic sovereignty? Is this a foresight sovereignty? Is it all of the above? Is it is it uh and when I say deterministic, is it individually individually deterministic or is it corporately deterministic? So when you think of sovereignty like and you quote that because I don't think that anybody doesn't believe in God's sovereignty. It's just whenever I hear that word especially as it relates to election to me whenever those kind of get paired together it sometimes can end up meaning something that maybe I've got in my head it means one thing and maybe it's being complet I'm misinterpreting. They might say they might say that they believe in the sovereignty of God, but then when you have them express their theology or when you look at their behavior, it's clear that they don't. So that that's one that's one caveat that I would add to that. >> Well, but hold on. That that would be a negative definition. I'm just looking for a positive one like in terms of how you would define it >> because I don't like I said, I I am willing I would be ignorant not to change my beliefs if I actually agreed. But at the same time, I mean, I've I always say that scripture doesn't contradict itself, right? We would all agree with that. There is no contradiction in scripture. So, >> like every good accountant, every time I read something contradictory, I have to go back and try and reconcile it. So, whenever I read contradictory scripture to certain elements of doctrine, no matter what that doctrine is, then I have to go back and say, okay, well, then I have to figure out how to reconcile it. Um, and one of the I'll quote Aristotle here, mark of an educated man is to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Okay? So, I have to be able like if you're saying here's what this means, then I've go, okay, then let me give me a chance to go and reconcile that because right now I have not been able to reconcile it. >> So, to break down your question, you said is God's sovereignty individualistic or corporate? Right. >> That's one. >> I I think I would have to say individualistic right? >> Okay. So, you would say individualistic, right? So when I stand like if I stood up right now, that's God determining that I would stand up right now. >> That's determinism. That's not so >> that's that sounds very different to me. >> Okay. But so okay, so this is what I'm trying to re reconcile. So because I'm going if it's deter when I say deterministic individually or corporately when I say deterministic that means I'm thinking I'm standing up. Are we are we getting into like a free will discussion about maybe a little about whether you know God's >> Sorry, Kyle. >> You may wanted to avoid this. I'm sorry. >> No, I mean I definitely do this at the very end of a recording. [laughter] That's a great idea. Uh, no, but I it's important what Adam's doing because he's trying to parse out the multiple parts of your question because >> so let's start with sovereignty and then get back to what you said cuz so sovereignty is that God is in control not partially but supremely over all things and nothing happens outside of his his purview and outside of his will. >> Is that a fair broad enough definition of sovereignty? Yes. That y'all would >> Yeah, I'll go with that. >> I would I would agree with that. Like yes. >> Okay. And so then it's how how does that extrapolate out into the individual dealings of an individual image bearer? >> So okay so I want to ask this is what this is one of the things how do you reconcile that with Jeremiah 19. >> I don't have it memorized so throw. >> Okay. So Jeremiah 195 if you want to go specifically. Hold on. I wish I did have it memorized. Um, okay. So, 195, this says him speaking of the Israelites and their behavior. I'll do four and five. because the people have forsaken me and have profaneed this place by making offerings in it to other gods whom neither have uh neither they nor their fathers nor the kings of Judah have known and because they have filled this place with the blood of innocents and have built the high places of Bal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Bal which I did not command or decree nor did it come into my mind. So, how do you reconcile that the idea of the deterministic individualism or things not happening outside of his purview or his will? Because I've I've been able to reconcile this. I But I'm just kind of curious. Have you all wrestled with that? >> I've I've never approached that ever. But you're saying, so what the scripture says in Jeremiah 19:5 is this is this is God speaking through Jeremiah. And what he's saying is that God saying, "I didn't expect this to happen." Is that kind of >> he's basically saying, "I did not command it nor decree it. uh nor did it come into my mind. >> I mean, I think there's got to be other times in this isn't the only time that that's that that's happened. I would think there's been many >> Oh, that I don't know. >> I I would think that there's many times that that that perhaps I don't know if it's said in black and white necessarily like that. I'm thinking thinking through this on the fly. So, so Kyle, and I've heard you talk about this before, too, uh, or I've heard you talk about something, and I've kind of used this analogy, but because I I also believe totally in God's sovereignty, but one of the the way I kind of think about it is you've talked about going against like black belts in jiu-jitsu, okay? Or my example might be like whenever I would like get into boxing matches with my brother who's eight years older than me, okay? I might get in a few good licks. You know, I punched him. I'm doing my thing. And I'm like, look at me go. And then when he decides fight's over, the fight's over, right? It's like, uh, what's a more powerful to me? It's like, what's more powerful? The go the the God who basically says everybody does this or y'all do what you want. It doesn't matter. I win. I think you're talking about you're saying more powerful, but what you're actually describing is ultimate power. >> Yes. I mean, it is ultimately powerful. >> So, so what you're describing with within the Jeremiah passage like you're not the first time someone's brought that up. U Tony Evans has a has a note in his study Bible, and there's another one here. I think this is helpful. Um that that passage is not like contradicting divine sovereignty. It actually like >> upholds it. Um, so here's just a note. Evil is defined as what opposes God. And this distinction clarifies that God is good while what stands against him is evil. The Jeremiah passages emphasize God's moral character. He abhorses these practices and holds people accountable for them. This is entirely consistent with sovereignty that permits human agency without approving human choices. >> Okay. Yeah. So this is I've heard agency before, too. So I I don't know >> because if we don't have agency, then we can't love. for sure. Okay. So, but what is the difference between agency and free will? >> I think the definitions are fairly muddled. I would think people would put them in the same camp. >> Okay. I I >> some people would quibble even with the idea of free will. It's like, oh, you because the decision you made is based on how God created you to begin with. So, the decision for Michael Jordan to dunk a basketball is predicated on the fact that he was made to be 66 and athletic. Like, you know, you know what I mean? Like, >> sure. That's a that's a fair point. >> So, that's why some people I don't quibble with the free will. I'm just like, yeah, generally true. Whereas other people are like, "No, no, your your decisions are based on where God put you, where you were born, your immutable characteristics, things that you cannot control." Uh, and so you are >> you're brought to a different level of decision-making because you're given you're basically dealt this hand. >> It's an interesting point. >> And so, uh, but but ultimately in terms of sovereignty is again some people will describe sovereignty, but then whenever you ask them what they believe, they're not describing a god that's sovereign. They're essentially describing a god that's either more theistic or sorry not theistic theistic meaning that God created it all. He basically wound up uh you know the the symbol playing monkey and then he just kind of went through and then he's just looking down like look at these stupid monkeys. Look at look at what they're doing. Uh or the other side of it which is that God is shocked by how things have happened which means that he's not living outside of time. >> I wouldn't believe either one of those. I mean I actually I mean I do believe that you know ultimately he's outlined the plan and I think that you have you can see enough in the previous prophecies in the Old Testament and linking them to the work done on the cross in Christ that yeah you should totally believe anything that is being predicted in this book. Okay, at this point I think we can rely on this for future predictions. Honestly, I wish he had some stock tips in here. That would be great. But at this but I would say you can rely on those and I there's nothing that is going to happen outside of what like he's not going to get shocked by anything. I would totally agree with that. He wouldn't be much of a god if he could not foresee you know I even have a problem like when you start talking about god the idea of like a pre or a before or anything like that. It's like how do you describe that whenever there is no time you know when everything's just kind of happening all at once? I mean, God deals with time like I sit in this chair. >> I mean, it's just it's just a completely different concept. So, stuff that something that would be completely foreign to us. And so, um, you know, I've been wrestling with this for a long time. So, I mean, I don't think I'm probably shocking anybody here on this stuff, but I I think that where I started to kind of land on this stuff is, you know, that he is sovereign. uh and he is I mean his plan will come to fruition but there is an element here where I just kind of what I've thought is he's given us that free will to operate to love him back to love him in return to give our put our faith in him and that he has made provision for those for all of us like that you have the opportunity I've given you this provision in Christ to come to me but you have to put your faith in that otherwise you're ch you are chained to your sin and it will go to you that you will follow that sin right into hell. Um so I don't know if that makes sense but >> I feel like every time I've gotten on this thing it's it's a freaking merrygoround. It's like over and over when we go back and forth between sovereignty and free will non-stop because I've I've just been sitting here re rereading this verse over and over and over and I've I've reinterpreted it in my mind two or three different times like [laughter] is this is he okay? So he which I commanded not like okay he doesn't command anything and does he know everything that's going to happen? Yes. Does he know when it's going to happen? Yes. Does he know how it's going to play out? Yes. Would I say that I would think it's unusual for him to say that he hasn't commanded every single thing that's happened throughout human history. Like I don't know that that really bothers me all that much. That part of it. Like I'm not sure that that feels to me like a shot at his sovereignty sovereignty. Even even if he's just saying that something happened to happen that he didn't command. Like that's true cuz cuz uh Satan's here and Satan has power to do things, right? That's been that's pretty clear in scripture that Satan's here and he's doing things here that you know, not that God's not in control, but he's clearly stepped back and Satan is doing things that he's trying to control things that, you know, God's preference might be for some it to be a different way and it doesn't happen that way. Right. Well, he's allowing, this goes back to my leash on a dragon episode from earlier this year. >> He has the dragon on a leash. He has Satan on a leash. He is allowing Satan to do things that bend towards or that match perfectly with the will of God. Like that was not He was not like, "Oh, that crafty Lucifer, he's really got one. All right, I'm going to have to adjust my game plan at halftime." No, that was the plan from the beginning. the rescue plan was from the beginning because God knew what was going to happen and he set, you know, he he literally set everything in motion, but like he knew what Lucifer was going to do. He knew Lucifer would rebel. He knew that he would be sent down and he knew that Lucifer would try to crush uh the line of Judah. And so I I I think that's this is one of those things and it's not intellectually satisfying when someone says this because I remember when Mark did it last year when he said, you know, Puritan pastors when it would come to the discussion of sovereignty and free will, they would just step back from the text and they would just say the word >> mystery >> mystery. Mystery. [laughter] And that's part of the problem is given the day and giving the time of day, I'm going to be pulled more toward the free will side, more towards the sovereignty side. Then we go to the Bible and it's just it just says what it says and then it just means what it means and then it just relates to the story of the redemption of humanity. How it relates to the story of redemption of humanity >> and at some point we have to be comfortable with mystery and we got to wind to a close two clarifying questions. So number one on the on the when you talked about the um the the chain on chain on the dragon is that kind of like the active versus p passive wrath kind of idea like there's some things like the flood is active wrath right but then you could say like Israel's conquering by Babylon would be passive or maybe even what happened to Job would be passive wrath. >> Does that make sense? >> Passive in the sense that God stepped away and allowed >> correct. >> Mhm. Everything that's happened that seems bad to us was either ordained by God or allowed by God. >> Yes. So I mean, but that's ordained by God would be active wrath, >> right? On a sinful on a sinful people. >> So active being God >> God did it. God. So Sodom and Gomorrah, God flooding, you know, uh, destroying the earth by flood. God did it. I where I would quibble is with the passive language because it seems passive to us. Because if we knew our neighbor was about to do something to our other neighbor and we could stop it, well, we actually don't like that other neighbor very much, so we're going to let him do it. We're going to be the passive agent. >> But just like with sin, there are sins of omission and sins of commission. They're all still categorically sin. And so, categorically, God is still sovereign and in control. Whether it seems like to us he is forcing the issue or allowing it to happen, it's all the same because it's still under God's sovereign control. Okay, >> let's chase one more right turn. We didn't even get to a second thing. >> I forgot it. [laughter] >> This is So, we got we got just enough time for one more rabbit. You mentioned the uh the stacking of the stones. I freaking love this. I'm so glad you brought this up. The transfiguration and you mentioned earlier how Peter was sort of a You alluded that to some some way, man. >> Yeah. >> Go back and read the story of the transfiguration because here's Peter. >> Peter got so excited. >> This freaking idiot [laughter] and >> Jesus stay up here, MAN. JESUS IS AWESOME. JESUS G, you know, Jesus shows his glory and Moses is there and Elisha is there >> and it says more more than one. So Peter starts talking. He starts talking. He's like, "Uh, Lord, we we should build you build these the stack of stones is what made me think of it. Let let me build a stack of stones. One for you and one for Moses and one for Elisha." And then the greatest thing is it's like while Peter was still talking, which I'm like, [laughter] "Oh, that's so good." It's like while he was still talking it's like shut up Peter. >> Oh >> yeah. I never assume again I see a lot of me and Peter. I would never assume that I because I would be the guy like this is so awesome. We [laughter] can build A TENT FOR ELISHA OVER THERE. MOSES CAN HANG out over [laughter] his stinking mouth. Uh and so well and >> not to mention within 24 hours later he was denying him three times like well I don't know if it was 24 hours later but it was not long after that. >> Peter is a uh I'm not sure anybody wants him to be the first pope. I'm just going to go ahead and say that out loud. I don't know that that's the guy that you want to be the rock that we build everything on. Sorry to offend your former sensibilities [laughter] there, Jake, but we are going to have to leave it there because next week guys, we're going to get into because it was it was interesting some of the stuff that was being brought up. When we get into the latter part of Romans 10, you know, when we talk about, you know, the elect and the non-elect and okay, well, if they're ordained to be this, then why do we have to evangelize even and all those types of things? Because at some point Paul's going to elucidate and we may not get there for a couple of weeks, but he's going to elucidate like how do people even come to faith, right? Okay, so we've established that you trying to go for the law is not really going to get you there. So it's like, all right, well, how do you get there? And then how do we make sure that other people can even hear about how we get there? But guys, come back next week where we're going to start at Romans 10:5. Romans 10:5. And before we go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost. I'm Don Life. Our mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Don't forget about the logos logos uh undon life study bundle. Check that out in the show notes. We got a forging table starter set from Crossway. We love Crossway. They've been great to us. Also, we're a donationbased ministry. So, if you want to hop on board and help us out to be able to get this content to more people around the globe on dant.life/donate, check it all out in the show notes. Thank you everyone for listening to this episode. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive fivestar review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@undant.life. life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook. And check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming. www.undaunted.life. The music on this podcast is the song Conqueror by the Christian metal band Void Awaken. Be sure to stream their music on Spotify, Apple Music, and wherever else you get your music. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the Lion of Judah. [music] [music] Hallelujah.