Hey guys, real quick. So, I've talked to men literally all across the globe about where they're missing the mark and how they want to improve. They normally talk about how they wish they were in better shape. They wish they had a better relationship with their loved ones. They wish they had more success and influence at work and some other stuff like that. But here are some of the most common and biggest things that I hear. I wish I knew more about the Bible. I wish I could lead my family spiritually. I wish I could recall more scripture. I wish Bible study wasn't such a struggle. Well guys, I've got news for you. You don't have to keep wishing. It's time for you to start doing. It's time for you to stop wasting your time and money on stuff that has no eternal value whatsoever. I keep hearing you talk about how you want to be more biblically literate and spiritually resilient. And now is your chance to prove that you mean it. That's why I want you to take advantage of our partnership with the most powerful Bible software on planet Earth, Logos. So, Logos approached me about putting something together for the Undaunted Lifers out there, and we collaborated to create something I'm super pumped about, the Undaunted Life Study Bundle. So, here's the skinny on the bundle. There are over 200 individual resources and they include titles from authors like Vodie Bacham, Charles Spurgeon, RC Sproul, John MacArthur, Matt Chandler, Dietrich Bonhaofer, William Lane, Craig, Paul Washer, John Sto, Doug Wilson, Paul David Trip, Jipacker, and a whole bunch more. And there are so many helpful resources in there. There's Bibles, commentaries, Old and New Testament study guides, devotionals, systematic theologies courses dictionaries histories encyclopedias non-fiction books, and more and more and more. And here's the most insane part about this deal. If you were to buy each individual resource by yourself inside of Logos, it would cost you over $3,000. $3,000. But if you get the Undaunted Life Study bundle, you'll get all 200 plus resources for just $349.99. Guys, that's $3,000 worth of stuff for 350 bucks, guys. That's almost 90% off. And you know that you waste more than that on the hobbies that you have right now all the time. And these won't help you with your disciplehip and sanctification journeys, right? It's time to get real and take control of your Bible study and spiritual development. Click the link in the show notes for this episode. If you want the link, it's logos.com/undaunted life. That's www.llog.com/undauntedlife or the link in the show notes. It's super easy to sign up. Again, go to the show notes and click the link or go to logos.comlife. Sign up for Logos and get the Undaunted Life study bundle right now. This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. Welcome back to the Forging Table. The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, or physical resilience. At the forging table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience by digging into God's word. and we're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey. That's horn, that's wick or sham, that is useless. And so we were having quite the spirited discussion uh off air. Uh spirited is a good word to use for it because anytime we have something on the forging table where it seems like man those guys are really arguing. You have to remember we all know each other outside of this table. We all love each other on the table. Outside the table like we we well shut up youus. Uh you know what I'm saying people out there get your minds out of the gut gutter. The thing is is we we care for one another. We are part of each other's foxholes. Like we are matt carriers. We would carry each other to the feet of Jesus. And the thing that we try to model here with the forging table is like if we take this back down, we have to go to the scriptures. I'm reminded of what uh the great compliment that RC Sproul gave uh John MacArthur when they were both on stage together. This was towards the end of RC Sproul's life is he said anytime uh John and I go to the mat on something if I can take him to the scripture and prove to him and show him that his position his point of view is incorrect he will immediately upon recognition say yes that is correct uh I was wrong I will I will shift my perspective and so again it kind of goes back to what I was talking about a couple weeks ago it's okay what does it say what does it mean and then how does this apply to the character nature of God and how, you know, how does this apply to the gospel? Like no matter where you're reading in scripture, this it all kind of circles the same drain, which is God's redemptive plan for humanity, right? And overall God's good goodness. And so we've the last uh few weeks we've been going into Romans 1. And so uh now, I mean, we're just kind of continuing this. And so we'll get into the next section of scripture. And so we'll probably end up, you know, >> you said Romans 1. We're going back to Romans 1. >> My bad. We're not going back to Romans 1. Uh we would have to start way over. Appreciate the correction. Romans 9, Romans 9. And so we're going to start with verses 17 and 18. So Howard, if you can get that teed up because you know in the ESV 14-8 is the paragraph and the Moody commentary called this section God's election love. God's election love. What that is and and how does that apply? But let's go ahead and kick off today with our discussion of 17 and 18 of Romans 9. >> Verses 17 and 18. I've got it >> for >> Oh, he's reading new Bible. Sorry. >> For the scripture says, For the scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up that you might show my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all of the earth." So then he has mercy on whomever he wills and he hardens whoever whomver he wills. All right. So, this is hearkening back to Exodus 9:16 where it basically quotes that directly. Um, I mean, verse 18 is a brutal verse. It's a brutal verse. So, then he has mercy on whomever he wills and he hardens whomever he wills. Um, and he keeps that going beyond this point in terms of the description of what's happening in Pharaoh's heart, what Pharaoh is doing, what God is doing. Um, and really with verse 17, God's not really, the Reformation study Bible made this point. God's not creating fresh evil in Pharaoh's heart. He's not jinning up additional evil that wasn't already there. He's giving Pharaoh over to his evil desires. Okay? >> It was trying to be like, "Hey man, my will. Hey man, my will." And then finally it was like, "Okay, Pharaoh, your will be done." Okay, your will be done and you will suffer the consequences. And um but you know, we were talking last week, we were talking about, okay, we essentially were talking about, you know, election if it's unconditional, like you know, do you believe it's pre-ordained and all that, but Ryan, if you'll actually get uh 2 Corinthians 5 pulled up for me. >> Um because, you know, one thing I've told people that I do is before I start lifting in the garage, I've got a Bible out there and I'll just kind of, you know, go through some scripture and I'll read a chapter as part of my warm-up and then I'll I'll get into my lift. Uh but I was reading 2 Corinthians 5 uh chapter 5 and if you'll go ahead and read verses 14 and 15. Well the love of Christ controls us because we have concluded this that one has died for all. Therefore all have died and he died for all and those who might who those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised. So the key verse that stood out to me or the key part of the verse was and he died for all. And he died for all. So we're talking about election. We're talking about God's choice. Um and then we get into a discussion if we're using it in, you know, Calvinist terms, limited atonement. [sighs] Well, if he died for all, then how is his atonement limited? And so this was the hangup that our pastor, the three of us, our pastor Mark Hitchcock, we're you know in terms of tulip, he says he's tulip because he doesn't see the scriptural backing for limited atonement. And taking a guess here that he would probably point to 2 Corinthians 5:14 and 15 as one of those reasons because when it said he died for all and I know you know Calvinists like to separate off like oh it was only well what's the quote? It's only uh >> uh it's sufficient for some. It's efficient for all but sufficient for some. >> Yeah. Efficient for all but you know sufficient for some. It's like all right like we're really splitting hairs now because if we're trying to just see what you know what does it say? What does it mean and how does it you know what does it tell us about God and the gospel? Well all just kind of means all right. There's not some sort of weird uh translation and from the coin a Greek to the Germanic to English where we get kind of lost in translation. Nope. go all the way back to the original source documentation. All does mean all. Um that's kind of a typical pastor joke. It's like what do you think all means? Well, in the actual Greek, let me tell you, it means all, right? Like that's kind of the pastor joke. >> And so it gets us right here where it's like he died. Jesus died for all. That includes Pharaoh. >> And then when you get into 17 and 18, and again, 18 such a beautiful verse, it's like, well, you know, he's going to, you know, his name's going to be proclaimed in all the earth. He he's going to save who he wants to save. He's going to do all those different things, but at the same time, it's like we I I would personally say that, you know, the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross was efficient and sufficient for for all. >> So, >> if it was efficient for all, then wouldn't would that be a universalist view? >> No, because I would assume that everybody would pusho would place their faith into the finished work of Christ. That's basically what limited atonement is is that Jesus died for all but only certain people are going to pushuo. So that's only efficient for those who pushuo. >> This is how I would push back on that. It is when Jesus died on the cross he atoned for all the sins of humanity past, present and future. And so that when you talk about limited atonement, it in my view and what what I read and you know Mark would be able to elucidate it way better than me, >> but it's yeah, I mean we're kind of like [laughter] we're kind of like four dorks driving blind here. But um and but again guy these are four layman. None of us are professional Christians. We're just trying to go to the text and try to figure out what in the world it says and what application it could possibly have for our lives. >> But at the same time it's like did Jesus only atone for some of the sins? Because the argument could be flipped back on the person and say, "Oh, well, he he didn't he didn't die for the sins of those people." Because, you know, >> well, who's he? >> What's Jesus doing right now? >> Sitting at the right hand of the father. >> Doing what? >> Interceding. >> Interceding. >> Interceding for who? >> Us as believers. >> So, the elect. >> Is that correct? >> So, why isn't he interceding for everybody? Because he died for everybody. >> We're talking about atonement, though. We're not talking about intercession. Now, you're not talking about intercession on a regular >> basis. I hear you on that. I mean, like like I said, the limited atonement I've always been hung up on, though. But I can't >> and to to your point, keep your point. This is the one where again, I've said it a billion times. This is where people talk right past one another. >> Like you'll literally have someone describe their point of view and the person will go >> no. They will shake their head yes as they say no because it's just the language is right past. I mean that's where I think like you think it's soft but I think it kind of makes some sense that it's sufficient for all uh or sufficient for all but efficient for some because then you have to go down a universalist path >> that if he died for everyone he died for everyone since everybody's sins have been atoned for. So why why >> have you accepted the gift though? >> I think you only have to go down the universalist path. I think the what is the and I'm bad at this. What is the the part of the Calvinist tulip or whatever that um that basically says that like people don't have um >> irresistible grace. >> Irresistible grace. >> Yeah. >> So that is the part that's where those two connect to where those kind of have to hold each other up there because if you if you say that it's irresistible grace then that grace is the blood of Christ. So if the blood of Christ is shed for everyone, then everyone has been called to irresistible grace. And since it's irresistible, that would mean everyone would have to would have to be saved >> that couldn't resist it, >> right? And so that's that's where like I feel like that those I'm just from the outside, that's where those two things really have to hold together in the tulip to be able to to make that happen. And I've always said this like tulip if if we go off tulip um and we we look at tulip >> like each one intercedes for the other you know it's like you can't have total depravity you can't have unconditional election without total depravity like it all leads to to certain things you can't have the perseverance of saints >> if you hadn't been elected you know or irresistible grace and so I mean >> and it all boils down to sovereignty of God if you believe he's outside of time and all of it then the answer yes we did I mean, like if we look at like the sovereignty of God, it's just like, all right, just it just kind of all makes sense. Like, you want to call it limited atonement, explain it to me. That's fine. But I'm not going to go die on that hill of limited atonement. I am going to I It's just hard to believe in the unconditional election >> and not see limited atonement because >> only the elect are going to go to heaven. >> Only the named. >> Let's Let's since we're ballooning out into irresistible grace, uh, somebody read 19. You will sorry I got it. You will say to me then why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will and and okay so he's he's calling back uh why does he still find fault? He's calling back to verse 14. What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means. Okay. So 4 to 19. You will say uh you will say to me then again he's assuming the objection. Why does he still find fault? for who can resist his will. This is that irresistible grace part. This is the part that gets a lot of people hung up and me hung up because it's like, all right, well, if we can't resist it, then we're essentially automatons. Because if I have a robot that's programmed to do, you know, A and then I reprogram it to where it has to do B. There is no choice in the automaton. It must do B. >> And so it like it doesn't be like, well, I liked A better, right? A is more my style, more my speed. Nope. You are a machine. You're an automaton. and you're a robot, you will do what you were programmed to do. That is until I robots a real thing and Elon Musk, you know, takes over the world and we're all screwed anyway. But at the like at the same time, that goes back to okay, if it's irresistible and you're right, Ryan, it okay, that send you to okay, now it's election. Okay, so how are they elect? How did he decide? Okay, God decides, cool, sovereignty, all the things. But if it's irresistible, then I didn't have a choice in the matter. And then >> these are this is like one of those scriptures that I look at >> and I I am puzzled how to piece this together with other pieces of scripture and I I question do I understand what Paul is trying to say or do I just not know how much how much knowledge he actually had of how this all works? Because this to me seems um just in contrast to I don't know several parables that Jesus had himself where you have the bridegroom and you have the people waiting outside and some people chose to go and not worry about filling up their things and they weren't waiting. like it. There's all this there's all this um seems to be decision-m all these all these things to where there's an opportunity there for people to make the right choice and then that that invite is there to them and they don't they don't accept that invite and then they're somehow like put into a different category and yet Paul here is making a statement then who can resist his will and then you know later or another point of scripture it says you know that it's very obvious that God's will is for all men and if just Israel like if if that's the truth then all Israel should at least be saved because he said if you would come to me it implies that he wants them to come to him. So this is that piece where I'm like, man, I don't I don't I just don't know enough. I guess I don't. >> Well, the text the text doesn't explicitly answer. No. Yeah. So there's not an explicit answer on, you know, the irresistible grace thing like, okay, so how can God judge so harshly when he didn't choose like when when people didn't when he himself did not choose certain people over others? Like how could he also simultaneously judge so harshly? Because even going back to verse 18, both Moses and Pharaoh were sinners. >> Neither one of them deserved grace. They both deserved wrath. One got grace, one got wrath. And then even within Pharaoh, like I forget, I just I think I plugged it into the Logos AI, the study assistant, uh, Old Testament references to God hardening Pharaoh's heart. Exodus 4:21 7:3 9:12 10:20 1027 11110 144, 14:8, 14, 17, 10:11. Pharaoh hardening his own heart. Exodus 8:15, 8:32, and 9:34. And then the times that Pharaoh's heart was hardened, but no agent was named, whether Pharaoh or God. Exodus 7:13, 7:14, 7:22, 8:19, 9:7, and 9:35. >> It's clear as mud. >> Yeah. [laughter] Okay. So, over and over and over, the same thing. The end point is Pharaoh had a had a hardened heart. He either hardened it himself or God hardened it. And the answer is yes. And either way, and either way, God is sovereign over both of those things. >> I think it it comes down to that. I think we forget that we are a creation. >> We forget that we're a creation. We were created. We were created to do one thing and that was to worship God. >> That's a good point. Yeah. >> You know, and if if we go with this human element of I deserve this or I deserve that, that brings us to the that brings us to move away, I feel, from God's sovereignty and more towards like, well, that doesn't seem right. And then we start adding human elements to what is already righteous. >> Like we we go into this like we already know what the Garden of Eden was like, but we don't. We're just a creation. >> And like the the loving thing about God is that he has chosen he has elected a remnant. And we should just be lucky that we're >> chosen that our eyes were open to it. And then we should also just like we should we should feel as Paul felt in the beginning of nine like anguish for the ones that don't you know but in the end God is who's the like when we go into the next thing who's the potter to call out or who's the clay to call out the potter like who are we to call out God like who is Job to call out God >> you know and that's where it just comes down to it's like sometimes we got to remember our where our place is >> does does that I'm going to use the phrase beg the question. [laughter] >> Let's just go with it. Sorry, Jay. We don't know if it's right. >> I'm asking y'all, does that beg the question of like why why are we given the insight that we're given? You know, like the scripture says that that we know things that the angels long to understand and like >> Yeah. I mean, the the question from like what you were saying like about like when we go into this, we're just clay. We're just molded to what he wants us to be. And ultimately, he is we trust that he is sovereign over it. And we are I feel I don't know if luck is blessed, grace, mercy, whatever word you want to put on it. just means like I almost feel bad for being in the position I am that I feel like the Lord has sought me and that like I am his you know and so like it does to me it just brings up the question of like if we are just that and there is no function for us in this why even tell us about what it like why do we even have the scripture why does he want us to know more >> he wants us to see his power >> his beauty and his beauty, his power. Yeah. >> Like the the the Bible is not about you. The Bible is God's story of how he redeems >> this place called earth >> through his own power and his own might. And we are just along for the ride and get to see the beauty of it and he's he's exposing that to us. >> To me, this just shows that we keep trying to put oursel back into the seat of the judge. Yeah. >> We want to know why. You know, and this one makes me think of the RC Sproul uh YouTube video when they ask him like, "Why would a why would an unjust god >> or why would a just God >> why would a just God throw Adam and Eve out for just one sin?" And he comes back to him and says, "Come on, people." Yeah. Like he he told them if they ate off of the tree, they would die immediately. >> Yeah. >> But what did he do? He sent them out of the garden. Okay. And he was gracious and gave mercy to them. And we want to sit in the seat of judgment now when we see something we think is unjust and he's the author of just the author of beauty. I mean like >> well go back to the garden Howard like look at >> um I'm trying to get the exact reference but it's like so they initially uh whenever their eyes were opened they sewed fig leaves together to try to cover up their bits and then later they were they were given like basically animal skins. >> Okay. Okay. So, what had to happen to those animals? >> First sacrifice. >> Yeah. First sacrifice. The first blood sacrifice to provide a covering for human sin. >> Holy crap. That'll melt your entire world [laughter] for a week while you try to unpack that. And so, like it goes all the way back to the garden where perfection was supposed to be had, where there was not supposed to be any death or suffering. >> And now there are animals that are dead. The first blood that was shed on this planet was not like this was not the story of Cain and Abel. It was those animals that were sacrificed to provide a covering for Adam and Eve for their sin. And God in his gracious, >> patient mercy provided them a a sacrifice, >> you know, to to provide a covering for their sin, right? Um it's and obviously it just balloons out from there, but it still kind of brings us back even into the text with like, okay, well, how do we reckon with with what this says, especially when verse 19 does not explicitly answer the answer the main question that we're all asking? >> That's one of the things that I was reading MacArthur's commentary talking about it. He's like, I can't explain it, but it's what the text says, and so it's what I have to go with, >> right? and we don't have the ability to comprehend some of these things. He just tells us what it is, right? He he talks about the mercy that he gives us, but then, you know, it's still on you, but there's nothing I can do about that. He's like, I just have to be I have to be honest to the text and say what it says. >> I mean, that's the thing when we go back and we look at Job again. Like, I always like to come back to Job because Job actually talks to God after going through what everybody would think is unjust. Well, let's actually bring Job in here. Uh, Ryan, can you read uh go ahead and read um 20 and 21? >> Oh, okay. Um, but but who are you, oh man, to answer back to God? Will what will what is molded say to its molder? Why have you made me like this? Has the potter no right over the clay to make out the make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? So Job >> So Job >> 38 through 41. >> Yep. I'm I got 38 pulled up right here. >> Will you read the first three verses of that? >> The Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind and said, "Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge, dress for action like a man, I will question you, and you make it known to me." >> So dress for action like a man. >> Gird up your loins. >> Girting up your loins, baby. And one of the one of the ESV footnotes is First Kings 18:46. And the hand of the Lord was on Elijah, and he gathered up his garment. He ged up his loins and ran before Ahab to the entrance of Jezrael. >> Yeah. When it when it just comes down to it, it's like >> dress up for action like a man. Like you're going to come, you're going to question me, >> I am going to question you. Like I always like I don't love hearing it but like it just blows my mind when you hear people like well how could it just do this I'm going to ask God when I get to heaven it's like if you get there >> you know like and if you get there you're going to be on your face you're not going to be there why did you allow this to happen who are you >> cuz Job who was blameless in his eyes asked the same question and what happened to him gird up your loins >> like I feel like like I I think that's the the thing that really opened up for nine for me is that in growing up in like this word of faith charismatic movement, it's all about you. It's all about God providing for you and God doing the stuff for you and like the genie God and it was just like who do we think we are? It's like what RC Sproul said like who do you think you are? >> And it's like I have such a high view of myself and like when I was reading this I had such a high view of myself and a low view of God's sovereignty. Like we talk about the fear of God and I think one of the things that we find out real easily is if things don't go our way, do we really fear God or are we just like expecting him just to do just good things for us all the time? And that's that's kind of like where like Romans 9 just comes out to me where it's just like who do we think we are? >> Well, and then Romans 20, this is one of the the notes in the MacArthur study um study notes. Paul seems to be addressing those who seek to use this as an excuse for their own sin and unbelief as opposed to those questioning honestly this difficult doctrine. And so I think this comes back to something I talked about before. There's a major difference between a skeptic and a cynic. >> Mhm. >> Uh so a skeptic is going to ask probing questions out of an honest desire for what is true. A cynic can be provided with no evidence to the contrary of their position. They refuse to change their position. Right? And I've used this in the description of people that just blindly follow someone like Candace Owens. Blindly following someone like Tucker Carlson or Ian Carol or just pick somebody. And it doesn't matter what any of the evidence shows. Doesn't matter what the data say. It doesn't matter any of that. It's because the person that I choose to know, like, and trust, that I feel like I I I know them and that they wouldn't lie to me. I'm going to go with what that person says. And if you go one layer deeper and say, "Well, why are they saying what they're saying and claiming it as truth?" Oops. There's no evidence. There's nothing to undergur any of the claims that they're making. They're just making claims. And then you as the sheep, >> uh, you are basically just like, "Nope, they don't need to show me anything. I trust them. They will eventually be found out to be true." It's like you really want to you really want to bet that is that really what you want to do when everything else points in the opposite direction. And so, you know, verse 20 is kind of the answer to verse 19 was why does he still find fault? Why does God still find fault? Like for who can resist God's will? I think some people are asking that and they're not doing it with intellectual honesty, right? They're they're not actually trying to find truth. They're just they are ultimately using it as an excuse. Other thoughts on 20 and 21? Were you moving on? >> My question. Go. Oh, no. Go ahead. >> I didn't have anything. I just made an awkward noise. >> I was thinking about the great sheep detective. >> Oh, yeah. >> So, yeah. >> I thought you were going to make a new girl. You got something related to the great sheep detective. >> Uh oh, yeah. It was like you were talking about sheep. >> Mhm. And uh I remember like one of the like the old sheeps uh on there goes uh oh man he was like sorry I wish I had it pulled up. >> This is not good. Give me the basis. Maybe I know the >> Well, yeah. So he goes he goes do you know what humans call people that blindly follow and are dumb and can't figure anything out? And they're like no what? HE'S LIKE SHEEP. >> [laughter] >> SO, UH, so yeah, I was just like when you when you talk about like, you know, like sheep, it's like we are still when it comes to the creator sheep, >> you know, like he's the great shepherd. And that's where I think like the word comes in and and that's where that's where we're led and we're that that's how he leads his flock. And it's just like some of these things like Romans 9 are really hard to swallow. >> It's really hard to swallow. And like there's questions that I got asked like like I said like why would why would a loving God do this? And it's just like who are we to call like who are we to define loving and what love is? And like it just makes you kind of think like I will never know what >> what actual true love is. Like I can see it in the gospel but I can't experience it the way that God experiences it. I can't experience righteousness the way that God experiences righteousness. The only way I'm going to experience that is once I die and I go to heaven or Jesus comes back. And so it's just it's just something I'm in awe of. This this is one this is one of the reasons why Romans 9 is so tough is when you're when you're going through Romans 9 so granularly like this. >> Um you could you could get to this point. I mean this is some hard stuff. He basically says, "You're just a clump of clay that's been made into a vessel, and God has either made you to be honorable or dishonorable in your use." There's a lot of people could could stop there and be like, "That is straightforward. I feel like a very dishonorable vessel right now, you know, like in my life." And and they could just say, "Man, I must just be part of the dishonorable group." And and like if you read on in Romans, there is so much that Paul like he he is like I love how you said like he's setting the table. This this is a part of the banquet of feasts of what is Romans where he is he is trying to give you a balanced diet and this course of the meal right now is a big dose of humility and your servantthood under the sovereignty of God and just being like there's some stuff that doesn't seem that I like here and he's just asking you to swallow it down. It's like eating your your what is the food that you have to eat on New Year's to be >> black eyed peas, >> healthy, wealthy, and what? Black eyed peas. Never eat them. This is this is Paul's black eyed peas. He's saying, "I'm giving you some stuff right here. You're going to have to eat." And if we stop there, like I think that this is one of those one of those areas that if people are reading this, not to get too far down on the idea of like, well, what am I right now? Does that mean I'm I'm forever this? Because Jesus and and Paul talk about this later like Christ makes things new. That's the whole point is that this is a hard thing to swallow because right now he's saying that there's vessels that were just created for for dishonorable use and honorable use. Later on we see things that like he's talking about the transformation of stuff. We see Jesus talk about things that could not be renewed being renewed and things. So like it's a really tough thing to take this and then try to piece it together. be like, "Well, I do believe in the renewal, but that's not what he's talking about here. Just eat the green peas. Eat the >> Eat the black >> eat the black ey peas. Whatever this is, like eat it. Don't have to like it, but get through it >> and then carry on to find out what else what else Paul and what else the word has to say about, okay, you we experience this differently in the fact that we can be made a new in Christ." And so, >> I think Oh, go ahead. >> Oh, that's what I was going to say. I think that's the beauty of it. It's that so many times we get caught up in the um you know, am I elected or am I not? Am I a useless vessel? Am I a vessel of use? And it's just like we talked about it during the break, but it's you know, our our goal is to be conformed to the image of Christ, right? And we have no way of knowing if we're elect or if we're not, if we're a useful vessel or not. But are we in faith putting our faith in him >> and being conformed into his image? And I think that's that's where our heart has to rest. And it's like, you know, I've struggled with this thought of like, am I predestined? Am I not? Am I elect? Am I not? And it's I had to come to the end of it. It's like it says that some of us are chosen and some of us aren't. >> But he's revealed himself to me and I'm going to put my faith and my trust in him. That what he says is true. and that when I stand before the judgment seat that my actions and my deeds show that I had faith and believed and the actions that flow out of that that I will be given a reward and I think that's the piece that we have to work through that the rest of that will come and and and that submission to what what he says. I mean, >> I think I think you hit the nail on the head with humility. Like Romans 9 brings a lot of humility and humbleness to the reader >> and the fact that you didn't do this on you didn't do this. >> God's done this and he's done it before time >> and really you don't even know how you you can't comprehend. He's kind of kicking that out to be like >> all your logic falls out the table. We're dealing with God. >> Yeah. Like you didn't do this. God's doing this. It's not done in your plan. >> Mhm. >> Cuz we go back to Romans 8:28. May, you know, all good things happen under those who love God and and according to his will. So when we look at God's sovereignty, it's not for my goodness. >> It's for his goodness. It's for his will. It's not for my will. I'm just a vessel. And like that's where we go back to Kyle back in the day when we would argue about election and everything. You would be like, well, what's the point, you know, of you going out and and trying to spread the gospel and evangelize if people are already elected? Well, that's that's you thinking that I already know who the elected are. And when it comes to like I think it was Spurgeon that said it, he goes, "If the elect had like a yellow cross on their back, I'd be pulling up everybody's shirts trying to figure out who is the elect so I could spread the gospel." We don't know, but we are called to evangelize the gospel. So those who are meant to hear it hear it. And even as we're called, we we can't control the the ends or the means of somebody actually accepting, right? or God or God saving someone. That's why I try to remind people. They're like, I've heard this before that, yeah, you know, I was told to share the gospel and I did and just didn't work. >> Uh, say [laughter] more. Uh, well, you know, I talked to someone and you they asked me some questions and I gave them good answers and they they didn't accept Christ. I was like, >> wait, that's it? That that's that. So, it just doesn't work. Part of your job may not be to see it through to the end. part of your job might be planting that initial seed that somebody else waters like you're not going to exper you may not experience the first fruits now maybe you've got a really good way of doing things and you I think someone like Ray Comfort and some of the things that he does with his man on the street stuff and you have people that in a few minutes they go from ah I don't really believe in God to not only becoming a theist to giving their life to Jesus in one like you know line of questioning and he he basically just rinses and repeats that well that's his race and that's how he does it and he's you know been ordained to do that exact thing in that exact place with that exact person that may not be your role. We talked about the one mores a few weeks back over at church 1122 or anyone just just uses the concept of having a one more and people automatically think, well, if that person's my one more, then it's up to me. >> It's up to me to make it happen and I got to put in the work and the elbow grease to to really win this person over to Christ. And it's like, you know what? I'm not even going to stop you. If if that's your motivation and that's what you think, go ready. Go. But don't get bogged down if if they don't do the things that you want. And if you're honest to goodness kind of mad if they accept Christ and it wasn't it feel and you're like well that didn't have anything to do to me do with me. They went to a Billy Graham thing or they you know were watching you know some church online thing and then you know that's when everything changed or it was that last time when they abused that drug and they should have died but they didn't and then you know they cried out to God. >> Like it's like it didn't it didn't have anything to do with you really anyway. Right. >> Right. like you were the vessel like you were ultimately the vessel and are you going to be a vessel of wrath or a vessel of mercy and I mean if we continue on in the letter that's what we get to so uh Howard if you'll read 23 through 24 >> or sorry 22 23 and 24 what if God altogether choosing to show his wrath and make his power known bore with great patience the object of his wrath prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the object of his mercy whom he prepared in advance for glory? >> And 24. >> Okay. Even us whom also he also called not only from the Jews but al also from the Gentiles. >> Yeah. And so the the ESV calls them vessels of wrath or vessels of mercy. And so God has endured with much patience. God has long suffered, you dumb sheep. Right? And in his in his sovereignty, he has declared some to be Esau and vessels of wrath and some to be Jacob, who are vessels of mercy. Pharaoh and Moses, like I said earlier, both were deserving of wrath, but only one of them got it. >> Well, that doesn't seem fair. No, fair would have been both of them getting it. Okay? Both of them would have got the wrath. And like ultimately when it talks about um the ESV in verse 22 says uh the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction. Ultimately if you look at the the tense of everything it's basically saying that who prepare themselves for destruction. >> God didn't prepare them for destruction. They prepared themselves for destruction. Right. Um, and then it just kind of goes out from there. Like, but I mean, it's a brutal name to look at some people as vessels of wrath, but that is the ultimate vessels of wrath versus vessels of mer mercy. Those who are in Adam, those who are in Christ. It all comes back to that as well. Um, I've got a question that has nothing to do, this is not a theological position I'm trying to set up or anything. This is just a a real question that I'm really asking you guys in a Bible study. Um, did y'all find anything I find it really here weird here that Paul phrases these areas as what if God? What if God? What if God? >> Is there a theological theological position on any of this that gives allowance to the idea that is Paul trying to classify this statement as more uncertain? And he's like saying like this is not a truth. This is a this is what if like I that phrase there >> I couldn't find anything on the on the what if God or why that was contextually there. Um it just doesn't sit uneasy with me. I just had a big question mark was why does Paul phrase this as maybe lighter in his authority on these statements. >> I think the what if is more of like in the same way. So >> okay, >> um and I had to go back and read this through the NLT and I just pulled it up cuz like even I felt the same way. >> What does it say? >> Um I'm going to read 20 through 24 if that's okay, Kyle. >> Go for it. >> No, don't say that. Who are you, a mere human being to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, why have you made me like this? When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn't he have the right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another one to throw in the garbage? In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction. He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy who were prepared in advance for glory and we are among those whom he selected both from the Jews and from the Gentiles. >> Mhm. >> So it's like he's like showing like in the same way as we're I'm talking about this. So like he's talking about this one thing about the potter and the clay, but like rather that what if is like well in the same way even though God has the right to show his anger to destroy something or like what if God he's like trying to show a different thing >> a different example of the previous example. >> Yeah, that translation definitely makes it sound more assured. It's just this the ESV is a very I don't know >> it's philosophical like like he's kind of saying like I don't know guys have you thought about this like it would it would almost be more like if I was saying like >> well I don't have any authority to say this but what if God in his sovereignty that's how it sounds when he's saying this versus Paul being like >> let me declare this to you God in his sovereignty did this God in his sovereignty it just seems like a >> hypothetical he's setting up a hypothetical for them to think because again go all the way back to 14. >> What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means. Go to 19. You will say to me then why does he still find fault for who can resist his will? Now it's like I love this. He's doing what I like to do. Let me put another another worldly separate universe scenario in here. What if God just wanted to show off his power by showing off his wrath? How would he go about doing that? You stupid pot. >> Yeah. >> Right. Like here you are questioning the potter, right? You're qu the moulder of the clay. You stupid lump of clay. Like what if God did that? Okay. Give me an answer. That that's what it feels like that Paul's almost being like [clears throat] the answer call or not Spurgeon but Sproul calls that a statement of fact in the form of a rhetorical question. >> Okay. >> Right. >> I don't think anyone got that. Howard here basically >> Spr calls that a statement of fact in the form of a rhetorical question. >> Okay. >> Right. >> That does make sense. And I could see like I just genuinely had that question. I was like why is he being so soft on this this one piece here that seems like a very assured statement, >> but he's pairing it up with this very like I don't know guys just lend me your ear for a second like like just go on a little imagination with me. You know, it doesn't seem very polish. The way I took that and I think I think I'm reading that right. It's like, you know, we can do bad things, right? Even if even if we aren't one of the elect. And he chooses not to show us wrath now. >> Yeah. >> Like, right, he's patiently enduring that. And I'm just I don't think >> whether you're a Christian, a non-Christian, like I don't think we think about that. He's still being patient with us. >> We still have common grace. Yeah. >> Common grace. >> Mhm. >> But we don't kind of like the airline thing. We don't thank God every time an airline lands safely. It's the time. Yeah. Right. So, [laughter] >> well, just to kind of I I just, you know, plugged it into the study assistant into Logos. I said what is the significance of the phrase what if God at the beginning of uh Romans 9:22 says the phrase what if introduces a hypothetical scenario where God tolerates vessels destined for destruction in order to demonstrate his wrath and power ultimately revealing the riches of his glory through vessels of mercy. This rhetorical construction fundamentally shifts the argument's trajectory. Paul employs the condition the conditional to bypass a logical objection rather to to express genuine uncertainty. The what if does not suggest Paul is unsure whether God actually operates this way. Instead, it presents a coherent theological possibility that answers the objection raised in preceding verses. We look at 14 and 19. Um after the potter analogy analogy establishes God's sovereignty or sovereign right to shape creation according to his purposes, Paul uses the conditional to propose that God's patience towards those destined for destruction serves a larger revelatory purpose. >> Yeah. Yeah. Even so, like even in even in that it's just weird that like that labeled it he gives a hypothetical versus >> Paul just is so usually uh I I see what you're saying that he's using it as a way to try to emphasize the point by drawing them into their own questioning >> which is exactly what I do with the thing that you hate the most Ryan when I set up that separate universe scenario with all these different things like all right you're in baby Hitler's bedroom you got a hammer I wasn't talking about that. It was the hypotheticals of like, well, what if I what if I didn't make it to that penitentiary to share the gospel? Would those guys still heard the gospel? It's like, you were already there. You already shared it. You can't make up an alternate universe where that doesn't happen and then be like, where's God's sovereignty now? >> Except I can and I did because that's exactly what I did. I set up that universe. I'm just I'm just trying to be like Paul. >> Nothing like Paul. ME LIKE I THAT'S EXACTLY the same. >> That is not that is not what Paul did. >> The exact same thing. >> You didn't take something where it was like you had some truth, a statement of fact and then bring it back to another statement of fact. No, you took a statement of fact and then took all the fact out of it and said, "Well, what if this happened?" >> Uh so, uh it seems clear that you are uh you are subservient to your current level of understanding. That is what [laughter] seems clear at this moment. >> What? What? >> Yeah, that's a highlevel dig right there. You're going to be thinking about that one that for tonight. Yeah. You're going to be thinking about that. >> Dude, when I get back home, I'm like, >> "Hey, I challenged you. The last batch episodes come up with some sort of like alternate universe scenario and you're like, I'm not any good at it." But you've had about a month to kick it around in your brain a little bit. Like you don't have one, you can plug it into your your favorite AI or whatever. Oh, here we go. Right off the cuff. What is this going to be? >> What would Kyle currently be doing now if he didn't ruin his left bicep? Well, I can't answer that. Maybe they can. Y'all go ahead. What would I be doing? Let's speculate because that's what we're doing. We're in speculation. >> What would you be doing right now? >> What would his life look like right now if he had not ruined his left bicep? >> Uh, that's different from what it is right now. I don't know. Probably the only thing I could say is the schedule would be off cuz we did have to postpone >> like one meeting that we were supposed to record >> because I swore I could record four hours of forging table two days after surgery. And Adam goes, "On contrary, moron." [laughter] >> Probably we would have hit that deadline. We would have recorded that. I wouldn't even be here because that would have pushed me. >> Yeah. Into more podcast. >> No. Let's butterfly affect this. Well, what have happened? We were recorded when we were supposed to. All the way to Father's Day. You don't bust up your Achilles. Neither one of us are injured, right? >> That my That's the That's the scenario that Ryan started out. You said you had one. You you would be full. >> He definitely would have would have had a full beard cuz this is some type of try for help. >> What if I would have met [laughter] you five years ago? >> I think I'm handsome. Shut up. >> In Sunday school, >> but I had a full head of hair like John Stamos. Would we still be friends? >> No. I think it's because I felt so bad for you when we met. I was just like this poor fell. I thought you were Make a Wish kid. Uh, and so, uh, speaking of which, we do have to find a scenario where your, uh, current look could help us in some way to where >> I've actually already used that and I'm going to hell for it probably. Actually, I've been saved. I've been saved. You know, this was before I was, uh, before I was a believer, but, uh, I was at the Kid Rock Fuel concert in Norman [laughter] >> back when I was like 15 >> and, uh, >> Okay. >> And, uh, >> you said you had >> So, my friends snuck up onto the floor. >> Uhhuh. And I was the only one that got caught, probably because I was the fattest one trying to get over. And this ladyy's like, "Hey, hey, where's your ticket? Where's your ticket?" And I was like, "Uh, my leader has it." She's like, "You're leader." And I was like, "Yeah, I'm with Make a Wish Foundation." She's like, "Go ahead and go." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Not proud of that. Not proud of that. >> You were the only one that could have got away with that. >> I got away with it and I felt horrible for it. >> Even then, you had the Holy Spirit tap you on the shoulder like, "Hey, you know what? I like >> to make you feel better. I bet that lady knew you were a lion. She was just like, man, if he's willing to do that. >> She's like, what a loser. She's [laughter] like, "What a loser." >> She's like, "I never saw Total Depravity until I saw that guy trying to get >> He's willing to be a vessel." >> Dude, Kid Rock, though, you you were willing to be a vessel of wrath for Kid Rock and Fuel. So, >> dude, Fuel was awesome. >> Fuel's actually pretty awesome. >> Yeah. Uh, kid, that was when Brett Stallions was still uh the lead singer. But no, Kid Rock's portion was horrible. I didn't even as a non-believer, I was still like didn't like the fact that he wanted to turn churches into strip clubs. Like that was the thing that he said. So, it always just kind of blows my mind when you're like like I don't know some of the things with Kid Rock. I'm hoping the Lord's changed his heart since when was that 2001? No. So, >> okay. So, if you listen to his he was on Joe Rogan last year sometime and he was >> in a very haggarded like back roads, you know, trailer park marble red hanging out of his mouth kind of a way. He was pointing he was pointing Joe to Jesus >> and he was doing it in his own way using his own language. It's kind of that this happened at the UFC 250 or the UFC 250 event where there was one guy uh it's a Brazilian fighter, just forgot his name. He he he smashed uh Michael Chandler, absolutely destroyed him and so you're already kind of bummed that the Brazilian guy beat the American guy, but then he gave such a clear gospel call and in his broken English quoted John 3:16 and pointed every pointed everyone to the gospel of Jesus and all that and Jesus save my life and he can save your life. And he just like and it was and literally all of us were sitting there in Adam's shop and we all like started clapping afterwards. >> But then he had Josh Hokit who was like mfing this and f that and saying all this crazy stuff and they said before I GO I JUST WANT TO YOU KNOW GIVE ALL THE PRAISE TO my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Can't do anything without him. Also Michelle Obama is a man. And it's just like ah okay we could have done with some of that. And so Kid Rock kind of did you know a little bit of that with Joe Rogan. And then when you got to the alternative halftime show with TPUSA which he headlined. So he did the initial part of the show as the headliner as Kid Rock came out. Did the B with the BA thing with the beaver hat and the the theat the mink coat and all that kind of stuff. >> And then there was a little interlude and then it was Kid Rock by his non-stage name, whatever that is. I forget. >> Robert Richie. >> Uh Robert Richie. And he came out and did an acoustic version of Till You Can't by Cody Johnson. And my initial thought was like, why don't they just get Cody Johnson to do this? Why are we doing this with Kid Rock's alter ego, which is his actual ego, which is confusing? But then he he added a verse um that Cody Johnson gave him permission to do where it was basically, you know, you can you can always accept the gospel until you can't. That was the thrust of the final verse. So, the way I read that and so I' I'd love to hear other opinions is some guys they get they get high on their own supply and they buy into their own gimmick. So, the the documentary with Hulk Hogan, you know, Terry Bolea, you know, he wasn't Terry Bolea for the last 40 years of his life, he was Hulk Hogan. Like, he bought into his own gimmick until the end when he himself also accepted Christ and was baptized and, you know, his life, you know, changed right before he passed away. But with Kid Rock, it seems like he knows he has to be Kid Rock. He's got to wear the hat. He's got to do the rap rock thing. He's got to do some of the red dirt, you know, stuff. >> But if all if you just take all that stuff away, if you just drill it all down, >> like he knows the truth and he's pointing people to it and he's doing it in a very kind of busted up backwards kind of way. I think what we're seeing with him is we're not very far away from him just very openly coming out in condemnation of who he was for the first 25 years of his career, you know, as an acid rock rap rocker guy and being like, man, like I had this foundation of Bible and and God and Jesus and all that, but similar to what Ryan has said about his stuff is like, you know, he just thought he was a Christian cuz he was a pretty good guy and you know, but he didn't understand the gospel. I feel like that what the gospel is is becoming more clear with him. Uh, and I think because there are other people that I don't want to name that they they love to seemingly say the name of Jesus when it gets them some attabo because we're kind of having this cultural movement where where cuz it's like you won your Grammy and you thank God and everyone clapped but if you mention the name of Jesus it was like it kind of got a little a little awkward, right? But God will not be mocked. >> And so if you're using the name of Christ to elevate yourself like you like you're basically blaspheming that's using the God's name in vain. It's not just saying GD. It is like where you're using the name of God for your own personal gain. And that is an absolute warning to the people in the uh contemporary Christian music genre >> that they are singing from stage uh about Christ, but they themselves are not believers. The people in the band are not believers. The management aren't believers. The roadies aren't believers. The people in the producers, all the people at the label, they're not believers, but they're making money off the name of God. But rest assured, God will not be mocked. >> What do you What do you think the percentage of of that is I mean like in my mind I just think I was like >> surely there's nobody. >> What I can say is I remember even back in the day uh when I was first exposed to kind of mega churches and multicight and all that with Life Church >> uh it was seemingly clear that the the people leading worship, the lead singers were believers, but they would hire session musicians to fill in. >> So the basis, the guitarist, the drummer, the keyboard player, >> they were just session musicians. And so there was no statement of faith of any of these people. And I asked Joby about that as well, that same question about the people at his church. And they're like, "Yeah." He's like, "Yeah, we don't play that game." Like if if you don't believe this stuff and all that, you're we're not going to have you on stage leading worship. Like that just ain't going to happen. >> Is that where Joby called like sets the line is basically like onstage presence, we need to know your commitment to Christ. offstage presence like I wonder some churches how far that goes down the staff workings as far as like security team we need statement of faith from all you know where does that go >> maintenance yeah I I mean I can't speak for Joby's entire church because I haven't specifically asked him about it but I did specifically ask about the worship team and their worship pastors because they have like a guy that's kind of over all the different worship teams of the of the different campuses and all of that and if you are a outstanding drummer you don't ever lose time. You don't ever pull out your click track because you just want to like whail a little bit or all that and your fills are nasty and all that. Nope. If you don't believe in any of this, you're not going to represent Christ from this stage because that is like secondhand because if you look at it this way, Job's in charge of the whole thing, right? Because he's the the head shepherd of that group and you know, but he he submits to the authority of the elders. But you are basically giving tacid approval to someone being on stage that is blas like being blasphemous and and you know saying that they they worship God and that they're part of this and they're not. They're just getting paid a weekend check to to do three services and do all the rehearsals. >> That's that's what makes me think like when you talk about Kid Rock sanctification is a journey. >> Mhm. >> You know, it's not going to happen really quickly. You know, do I pray that Kid Rock like gets rid of his alter ego and kind of talks about how how how it was wrong and everything? Absolutely. But I know sanctification is a journey. I'm not going to judge somebody's salvation, but I can judge a fruit >> and I can keep a good eye on their fruit. Uh you talk about blaspheming um God's or using God's name in vain. It's like man made me think of the contemporary Christian music >> like that industry. Like you don't know how many people are just just making money off God's name. Like what was the band under oath? I think that >> there's a bunch. >> Yeah. Unfortunately. >> Yeah. They were like they're not even Christians, but they're like we want to get our start in Christian music, so we just put Christian themes and did Christian stuff. >> Well, I I remember uh there was a band specifically called Embodiment. That was a underground Christian metal band. And you know, I I I when I was coming up and developing my musical tastes and all that, that was the absolute peak of like underground Christian metal. That was when uh so many of those bands were coming up. And Embodiment was a band that later, they were on Christian label, they were on Solid State, and they did some releases through there. They literally said when they first started the band, they were like, "Well, we can get paid 50 bucks to play at a bar or we can get paid a,000 bucks to play in a church basement." So, we just didn't smoke and drink and cuss around the kids. And when the kids would come up to us crying after the show and asking if they could pray for us and all that, we would just let them. and then we would collect our check and go on. Uh because they're like, "We're going to be able doing this style of music. We're just not going to make it. We're not gonna get signed to Metal Blade. We're not going to get signed to any major labels uh to go do any of these kinds of things, but we can make a pretty good living, you know, playing rock music and being musicians in our 20s." And so, we just kind of faked it. >> And unfortunately for a lot of the bands that I grew up on, that's essentially what they said. Uh you know, my favorite band, I mean, I guess what used to be my favorite band, Zo. Uh, you know, the lead singer said he's kind of up and down, but now he says, you know, he he rejects the Christian faith. Alay dying was one of those enormous uh metal bands that played metal core and was all that. And the lead singer was supposed to be Christian, Tim Lambis. He's since rejected Christianity. He went to prison for uh trying to hire someone to kill his wife. Yeah. He he he thought he was talking to an assassin to murder his wife and it was an undercover police officer. >> And so he went to prison for that. and he's, you know, been rejected by all his old old bandmates for even after that cuz they all came together afterwards and forgave him and all that, but maybe there's some like narcissism or personality disorder stuff with him, but he's rejected the faith. And so, yeah, you're having people that are making money and I just think about some of the biggest artists and like when people want to lecture me about demon notes and how like Christian metal music sounds or all that, it's like, okay, not only are you grouping in all genres of of Christian worship music that aren't the ones that you hear on Air1, but you're taking Christian country, Christian hiphop, Christian ska, Christian uh like indie music, all that kind of stuff, and you're lumping it into this category of not being worship music when you can talk to guys that are in a Christian metal band and everyone in the band >> does Bible study. They believe what the word says. They will do these secular tours. My buddy Brooke Reeves of Impending Doom, a Christian death metal band, okay? And they're on tour with satanic artists. These are satanic artists where they are literally and he told me he's like the one of the funny things about a lot of these people, they're not even satanic. They just know that's a genre that they'll get paid to play and that there are people who are actually satanic that'll pay to come to their show. So, they're just trying to make money. Well, guess what happens? He's in the green room and he's reading his Bible, right? So, everyone else is getting high and sleeping with groupies and and doing all that kind of stuff and he's reading his Bible. Well, one of these big satanic kind of witchcrafty type bands, one of the guys, one of his uh best friends, it was best friend or family member was really, really sick. And so, he comes up to Brooke and says, "Hey, hey, Brooke, can I talk to you for a second?" >> And he's like, "Yeah, yeah." He goes, "Hey, man. you know, my buddy's sick and I don't I don't really know anything about prayer or the Bible or anything, but would you mind praying for my friend? These are people that don't even believe. They're not even theists, but they're like, "All right, I'm going to I'm going to go to the guy that reads his Bible all the time, not the guy that I get high and drunk with." And it's because these people are legitimately Christian people that have pursued uh in Christ for their salvation and justification. And yeah, I mean, that's my warning to to anyone out there that may listen to this. If you are making the money off of the name of God and you are not yourself a believer, you are closer to Judas than you are to any of the other apostles. >> That's basically um bar Jesus. Um Paul, you know, that's who he blinds him, which is I've always thought is so ironic that he blinded him because that's what Christ did to him on the road, you know, is blind him first wakeup call, you know, that's who knows what happens with that guy. But it is I mean Paul doesn't hold back for people like that. You know, you claim claim the name of the Lord. >> I think that's for me it's like I have I have more sympathy for a non-believer than for somebody who acts like a believer or says they're a believer but like spews something that's totally not biblical. Like >> I rather get on that person than a non-believer. Like if we if we can't if we can't patrol or make sure that the people within our our community speak the actual truth of what the Bible is rather than bow to culture and and itch and tickling ears like that's more of a problem than outside of the outside. So, I just got asked this for an ask a pastor actually. Uh, so someone privately texts me and this guy is a uh like he's a musician, he's an artist, and he he asked it in a lot of different ways, but he says, "Where's the line between contending for truth and unnecessary tearing down of another brother's ministry?" So, smuggled into the question, unknowingly, I would assume for this guy, but smuggled into the question is the tacid assumption that that person is your brother. >> I remember not. >> Remember the reconciliation with the one guy, >> right? Your brother. >> Yeah. There was a pastor who uh threatened me with physical violence in my DMs and uh because of a a comment I left on one of his posts and you know he then he started he he turned around and started like demanding that I reconcile with him and I can't reject the the forgiveness of a you know of a brother and all those different things. And it's like, you know, I talked to Joby about it at the time because he knew this guy, too. And it's like, man, you can't be reconciled to someone you were never reconciled to to begin with, >> right? You can't reconcile something that was never reconciled. And in in in this question again, where's the line between contending for truth and unnecessary tearing down of another brother? >> I think there are some watchdog ministries that just flat out miss it. They just get it wrong all the time. They think they know better. Like they are as cockure as cockure gets. And if somebody says something that's mildly out of step with their specific theology, they will try and tear them down. That's not what I'm co-signing. But there are people that are wolves in sheep's clothing, right? And so if we look at a James Taller Rico or a Kenneth Copeland or a you know, just just pick your your favorite flavor from inside and outside of the church sphere. These are people that are literally leading people astray, right? And so it is incumbent upon us. I mean, Psalm 97:10, "Oh, you who love the Lord hate evil." What's more evil than a wolf in sheep's clothing? Someone like James Tarico that will get up and purport to speak for God from God's book >> only to bastardize and change what the words say andor what they mean. >> It's about a culture. >> Yeah. And so and so this other guy, it's funny in my DMs I'll get this in consecutive [clears throat] DMs. One guy's like, "Man, you talk about politics too much. I'm going to unfollow you." And then the next one is like, "Man, you don't talk about politics enough. I'm going to unfollow you." And there was this guy that was basically talking about, "Man, I just feel like when you share some of the things you share, it's needlessly divisive." And I go, "Oh, no. The divisiveness is a feature, not a bug." Because in order to be discerning, you must be divisive. >> And what what did Christ come? He came to separate brother from brother, father from son. Like if you believe in him, you are separating yourself from other people. That is what division is. You don't. That is exactly what it means. And so if I'm going to point people to the truth, I have to divide them off from falsehood, right? >> And people just get they just get so sensitive about, well, it seems it just kind of seems mean that I'm pointing out the sin in somebody that's leading people astray. You you want me to cosign that? Is that what you want me to use my platform for? It's like, hey, use your 14 followers to do what you want to do. If you want to build up and and create a show and do all this other thing and do it a different way, then you go and do that. But don't critique me for the way that I'm doing it when what I'm doing is trying to stand up for truth. You just got a little tummy hurt because I use language that you didn't like. But again, division is the point. >> I think the the best way that I can put that into where our heart should be on those things is the shepherd mentality of a shepherd. A shepherd cares for his flock in a way that there are times when he is very aggressive and the and the flock has to scatter because he is dealing with a danger and he's got a wolf in the pack that he is going after. Um, and for the rest of the sheep that looks very like aggressive, but then also on the other side that shepherd brings those sheep and cares for them again. And that's where we have to find the balance is when when we when we go aggressive after a wolf and we scatter sheep, we also have to be very careful and like I think you have a heart for this too is like gather those sheep back up like like make sure that those those sheep are cared for. And that's kind of how pastors do it. I mean, like if you if you're in a church with a good pastor, like there will be times where from the pulpit or from the board meetings or whatever, you will see some aggressive action where he's going after a wolf >> and there's going to be some scattering of sheep. >> And then he's going to be trying to gather those sheep and make sure those sheep know that like there was a purpose behind that. I needed to to to get something done there. Now, let's come back together. Let's heal. which it does take some time to healing. Sometimes we as sheep in that moment like we don't know everything >> either. I think sometimes like congregants in in normal congregations, we get a little bit of this entitlement that's like, well, if you're going to do something, I want to know why you did it completely right? >> And it's like >> and you're not entitled to that. >> Yeah. Your pastor can't the the shepherd of that flock doesn't necessarily go around and tell every sheep what the plan is every single time that something is happening. And we have gotten this real like entitlement to be like, "No, I want to know exactly why you did that." Like, >> and and as we wrap up here, think think about the scenario that we're laying out of the shepherd, the sheep, and the wolf. So, if the shepherd notices a wolf coming after his sheep, and he just goes up and prays for the wolf, the sheep are not protected. >> If he goes up and lectures the wolf, the sheep are not protected. If he goes up and tries to shoe the wolf away, not protected. If he goes up and strikes a blow to the wolf that only wounds it, the sheep are not protected. The sheep are protected when the wolf is dead. That is when they are protected. I remember talking to uh my buddy John Cooper because he was you know trying to figure out if he was going to keep his podcast going and of course because that's not his main gig. It's you know he's a musician and you know he's been doing that for 30 years and doing great work there like legitimately Christian all all the guys in the band and all that stuff. And you know, this was right after Trump won and woke seemed like it was dead and you know, the LGBTQ stuff was quieter than it ever was and you know, all these different things. And it's like a lot of conservatives, right? A lot of Christian conservatives thought, man, we're we won. I was like, "No, no, no. Your enemy is down. >> He's not dead. >> This is only over when he's dead." And so again, if you are going to be a shepherd, whether you were called to a specific flock as a pastor is, or even if you're just acting as the head of your household, protecting your wife and protecting your children, which is part of your provision is protection. >> If someone's coming on after them, >> that is not the time for a dimminionative response. That is not the time for a tempered response. No, it is total victory. There are no other gradations of victory other than total victory. And again, the good shepherd destroys the wolf, rips it limb from limb, and once the wolf is done, then you go and get your sheep and take care of business. All right, guys. We're going to leave it there. We're going to come back next week uh where we're going to have a new batch, guys. This was a great batch the last four weeks, but we're going to start uh getting into latter parts of Romans 9, and we're going to get into the story of Hosea. Uh so, come back here and we'll get into verse 25 starting next week. But before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost. At Undaunted Life, our mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Do not forget about the amazing Logos Undaunted Life study bundle. You can check that out. The link is in the show notes, logos.com/donedlife. Also, Crossway, we've got an amazing forging table starter set. Five amazing resources that you can get at a halfp price discount. And then also, we are donationbased ministry. So, if you're wondering how we can take care of business the way that we do, how we can get this message out to people all around the globe to equip them to push back darkness, it's because we have individual guys hopping on board to be one-time and monthly donors. So, undonited.life/donate. Check it out in the show notes. undonned.life/donate. Thank you everyone for listening to this episode. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive fivestar review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@undant.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook. And check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming. www.undaunted.life. The music on this podcast is the song Conqueror by the Christian metal band Void Awaken. Be sure to stream their music on Spotify, Apple Music, and wherever else you get your music. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the Lion of Judah. [music]