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That's why I want you to take advantage of our partnership with the most powerful Bible software on planet Earth, Logos. So, Logos approached me about putting something together for the Undaunted Lifers out there, and we collaborated to create something I'm super pumped about, the Undaunted Life Study Bundle. So, here's the skinny on the bundle. There are over 200 individual resources, and they include titles from authors like Voddie Bauckham, Charles Spurgeon, R.C. Sproul, John MacArthur, Matt Chandler, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, William Lane Craig, Paul Washer, John Stott, Doug Wilson, Paul David Tripp, J.I. Packer, and a whole bunch more. And there are so many helpful resources in there. There's Bibles, commentaries, Old and New Testament study guides, devotionals, systematic theologies, courses dictionaries histories encyclopedias, non-fiction books, and more and more and more. And here's the most insane part about this deal. If you were to buy each individual resource by yourself inside of Logos, it would cost you over $3,000. $3,000. But, if you get the Undaunted Life Study Bundle, you'll get all 200-plus resources for just $349.99. Guys, that's $3,000 worth of stuff for 350 bucks. Guys, that's almost 90% off. And you know that you waste more than that on the hobbies that you have right now all the time, and these won't help you with your discipleship and sanctification journeys, right? It's time to get real and take control of your Bible study and spiritual development. Click the link in the show notes for this episode. If you want the link, it's logos.com/undaunted.life. That's www.logos.com/undaunted.life or the link in the show notes. It's super easy to sign up. Again, go to the show notes and click the link or go to logos.com/undaunted.life, sign up for Logos, and get the Undaunted Life Study Bundle right now. This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. Hey guys, it's a great day. Welcome back here to the forging table. Nothing's going wrong at all. The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. At the forging table, if the cameras ever work, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience by digging into God's word. I don't even know if these microphones are on, but we'll see uh on the back end if there's anything to uh upload into the the share drive. And we're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey. Everyone else is having a great day with me. That's Adam, that's Dagan, that's Russ. How's it going, guys? >> It's great. >> Everything's going great, right? >> camera supposed to be flashing? Is it supposed to be flashing? >> It's not flashing, and I know that to be true. All right, I figured you were going to interrupt me and kind of make it even worse, but here we are. Got my flash just a second ago, but that's okay. Hey, but uh in the break, Dagan mentioned something I never thought he'd mention. A jiu-jitsu. Uh not a jiu-jitsu guy over there. So, what was the what was the jiu-jitsu thing you were talking about? I was too uh busy screaming very, very positive words at uh equipment. >> Well, it it we ended the previous one in seven and eight and we were running out of time before I could bring it up. So, I'm glad you reminded me, but in in verse seven it says, you know, that a mind set on the flesh is hostile to God for it does not submit to God's laws. And I I was shocked that there is not a jiu-jitsu analogy in here somewhere. That hasn't come up yet. >> Well, I think there is one. Uh and so the thing is is in jiu-jitsu most of the time you just got you just have to submit. When I tell someone that's like trying out jiu-jitsu for the first time and they're like, "Well, so what should I do?" I'm like, "Just tap early, tap often." If it don't feel good, it doesn't matter if you don't know what the name of it is, just tap. And then a more experienced guy will tell you, "Hey, that wasn't actually a move. You're just kind of being a puss. Like, just, you know, deal with it next time. That's called pressure." You know, the best way to avoid pressure is to apply it. Stop being a >> That is exactly my my deal in jiu-jitsu. I did it one time and what was the big guy that has the the martial arts academy? >> Oh, Robert Lewis. >> Robert Lewis. No, you rolled with Robert? >> Yeah, and at one point and at one point >> It's like rolling with a tidal wave. >> he had me and I was like tapping and he was like, "No, you shouldn't do that." >> And I was like, "NO." >> HE'S WHISPERING. >> MY BODY, I know I was like >> My body, my choice, Robert. >> He was like he was like, "Nah, that's just discomfort. Push through that." >> Hey, I >> But it's true. He he would not have let me tap out right there. >> out right after that. So, now I'm getting >> You definitely did. No, but that's the thing is like >> No, he knew. He knew. >> There are certain positions where this is not a submission. So, like >> Yeah. >> you know, if you're in a someone's got you in a body triangle, which Adam has experienced my body triangle. If someone's got you in a knee on belly, which you've experienced my knee on belly, or for in Russ's knee on belly, or Rocky's side control, like we have some guys where it's like that is just a holding position that is so uncomfortable and you don't realize that you're able to withstand the discomfort. But I don't want to get too far away from what you're what you're bringing up. The the submission part is for the most part you just got to tap. I remember there was a guy this was years ago the Forge used to bring in a lot of like world class jiu-jitsu guys to teach seminars. And so what a lot of these guys will do is they'll teach some pretty basic stuff in the first hour, second hour they may do some more advanced stuff and then usually in the third hour they might, you know, roll with some of the people that are in there. And this is a multi-time world champion black belt. I don't want to say his name cuz he's embroiled in a little bit of controversy right now. But, he's calling people out kind of one by one and this is fun. This is not not like, you know, all right, you know, bear down. Let's try to see if we can beat the world champion. But, there was this one kid he was a white belt. He was maybe 16, 17 years old maybe 18, 19. He was very young. And this world class guy has him in an armbar and he's not really pulling it, right? And this kid is flying this way, flying that way, trying to roll out of it, trying to It got so awkward at one point this guy just looks over at our black belts and kind of goes And then finally everyone's like, "Dude, just tap. Just tap. Like, please." For most from the most part when it comes to jiu-jitsu and things like that it's like, "Hey, just tap. You just need to submit. Submit so that you can live to fight another day. Today's not the day to get our knee, you know, jacked up because you decided to try to tough guy out of a heel hook. Today is not the day to try to, you know, wait until that tunnel is almost closed before you tap in the guillotine. Like, sometimes the door slams shut without you realizing it." >> Yeah. Just say you love crepes, Ricky Bobby. Just >> But, but in but in this But, in this type of situation there are times when we just need to submit but there's almost never a time that we have to submit when it comes to this war that we talked about last week, right? The war between the flesh uh really with that hostility towards God. I think a lot of people they sub they submit too early, but it's it's not submitting to God's law. They're not submitting to God's will. They're submitting to discomfort. Right? And it's just like you you really just have to stick with this. But, you need a guide, right? So, Robert was your guide. I've guided people before where I'm like they tap and I'm like, "No, I do not accept. I do not accept your tap. You are uncomfortable. You can deal with this. Slow your brain down. Slow your breathing down." >> Did I tap wrong? That's what I That's what my next question >> Hey, I sat behind Robert in church last week and felt like I was on the wrong end of a before and after picture for working out. I was like, "That's a big dude." >> Well, I think I showed up and I was in the prime of like like working out and stuff like that. So, like I looked like I could >> did that matter? >> I looked like I could do something and then it didn't matter at all and they They But I mean they put me with Robert and Russell and Jermaine. Jermaine I actually did have more fun. I had more fun. He just smiled at me the whole time >> nice. It's cuz he's so nice. >> so nice. He was like >> taken your life in three seconds. >> He was like He was like, "Try to do this. Now try He'd be like, "Yeah, try to do that a little better. All right, there He Do it a little less sucky there. >> Do it better. >> But the whole time he's smiling at me. So, he ended up being Harrison. So, Harrison is now a full-fledged wrestler. Like he loves it, man. He's doing club. He's like he We're not a wrestling family, but Jermaine was his coach this year. And so, it's been really fun to get to see, you know, I could say, "Well, yeah, I rolled with your coach, you know." >> Yeah, well, you don't need to tell him how it goes. But like that's like the perfect analogy because like, you know, Russ and Robert are bigger guys, really strong and all that, but Jermaine 5'7", 150 lbs, you know, wiry frame, athletic build, but smaller guy. And just watching him very calmly and very in a very polite way just absolutely dominate other human beings. >> Yeah. >> That That's the example whenever I show guys, that's the light bulb moment. There was some YouTube streamer guy, I think Larry Wheels or something like that. He's like a big roided up, you know, gym bro guy. He I mean he's really really strong. They were going to bring him to do MMA gym and have him roll with some amateur guys. All right, so these guys are I don't know, probably purple belt, brown belt level, but smaller guys. I mean, Germaine's size, you know, maybe a little bit bigger. And this Larry Wheels guy is like 6'3, 250. And walking in, he's literally talking trash. He's like, "Guys, this is not going to be a problem. Look how big I am. Look how strong I am." He's like, "I'm about to show y'all there's a reason why we have weight classes." And I was like, I knew what was going to happen before it happened. So, he's standing there and this guy is walking up and they're ready to go and he's just standing there. And this little guy that's about Germaine's size takes him down and like guillotines him and submits him. But then you could tell he's like, "Oh, that was just, you know, that was luck." And then he had a guy literally push him up against the cage, got, you know, hands locked under his butt, picks him up, walks him to the center of the cage, spins him around, spins him around, spins him around, takes him down, mounts him, head and arm choke done. And he's [inaudible]. He's cussing, he's breaking stuff. He goes outside and he's slamming his car door, opening it up and slamming it. He gets in the car and he's like punching the the dashboard and all that kind of stuff. And I'm like, this, as funny as that is, this is a crossroads moment for that guy. He's either going to cover his eyes, plug his ears, and pretend like that never happened. And oh, if this was a real fight, I would have seen red and bodies would have started to drop and all that type of stuff. Or he's going to go, "Oh my gosh, this is something that I need to learn. I need to submit myself to learning this. I need to submit my ego to what's happening here." And there there is digging a direct corollary for the Christian walk. That's why a lot of Christian guys kind of get into jiu-jitsu. They want to do something hard, something tough. Because, I mean, getting good at jiu-jitsu is kind of a sanctification journey cuz you just get beat up for so long before you feel mildly competent. And I don't know that there's anything else like that out there that's worth it. There's plenty of hobbies that are hard to do, but they're not transitional or transferable skills like fishing or golfing or all that. You can't transfer that skill into any other area other than what you're doing. Whereas with jiu-jitsu, it's like this is something that could save your life or save someone else's life and you just don't realize how incompetent you are until you're exposed. And for And again, for a lot of for a lot of Christians, it's it goes back to what we've been bringing up from chapter 7 verse 15, "For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing that I hate." You're going to feel that all the time in jiu-jitsu when you're getting manhandled by somebody. You're like, "Well, I want to do this and it's not it's not working and they're like, there's got to be something else for me here." >> Well, if if it makes you feel any better, I had the same moment with Russ and mine was a neon belly. >> gave me the neon belly, too. Right after. >> Have you felt the neon belly, Dagan? >> Uh no. >> We can we can do that. >> This is probably >> You want to do that right now off screen while they're talking? >> I'm I'm I'm undecided. >> Okay. >> Uh probably probably 2017. So, it's probably almost uh it's probably 9 years ago and we had mats in my shop. We had a little tournament tournament in my shop. It was about when Kyle and I had just started kind of at the same time and um Russ I'd never felt neon belly before. Russ >> You know, while you're saying that, Dagan, just come over here. Just come back here and then we'll come back. I'm just >> Just one. It'll be it'll be okay. >> I've I've got a I've got a slap tear. >> Okay. Okay. >> You have a torn bicep. >> No, that's he he hasn't So, I'm going to go ahead I'm going to narrate this as we go. Okay, so Dagan's going to lay down. Dagan's going to lay down on his back and then Kyle's getting really excited for some strange way. I'm not really sure what's happening. And so, Kyle's going to try to hold him down. He's putting his knee down and then now he's adding more and more and more pressure to where now pretty much his knee feels like it is Poor Dagan. Poor Dagan. No, poor Dagan. >> I love >> I don't Is he crying? >> That's what they always say. They get neon belly and then they look down at you and they go, "Try to move. Try to move." And they know that you can't move. >> Yeah. >> So, so as you guys as you guys come back, so Russ is >> Do you want to feel it? >> I'm good. >> Okay. Just have I thought it was like n e o n belly. >> Neon belly? >> Like I'm going to slap your belly so this is a John Mayer belly. Like he's going to be like bright a purple nipple. >> It was like I was like neon belly and it's like no, literally he stuck his knee in my stomach. >> Hey, what would he you have done if he would have pulled your shirt up and just like >> Yeah, and you already thought it was jujitsu chain. >> I question I question that you actually agreed to go do it when you thought it was something called neon belly. >> that's even wilder. >> Yeah, I thought oh well, he's not going to actually do it. He's not going to give me a knee and I I I did grow up with a couple of Jewish guys who took jujitsu and so it eventually when I was like I think I was like in seventh or eighth grade we drove past Is it a dojo? >> Mhm. What is it? >> It's usually just an academy. >> or something and it was Mr. Gilkey's and it was karate and jujitsu and I was just like Oh, like I thought that they I was like man, good for them. They've got they're tired of all of the flack they've gotten over centuries and by God they're fighting back and we're going to >> You thought it was a cultural >> I thought they were taking jitsu and then I was like well, where's where's the Baptist jitsu? We should really start that. >> We should. >> So I've been interrupting. Can I finish my thought? >> Let's go back. Let's go back. So I was trying to make you feel better. 2017 so Russ does neon belly and I feel like his knee is going into my spine. >> Right. >> course I tap and I just remember him being >> And he's he looking down saying try to move. Try to move. >> No, no, no. He just he gets down and looks at me and gets close and like I remember him kind of taps on my chest and he looks at me lovingly and goes We don't tap to that. It's okay. >> That's right. It's going to be just all right. >> And then but it was in a nice soft sweet voice as he was trying to rip my It wasn't rip my spleen. >> Not condescending at all. >> No. No, and then we we just continued. So he's he added the pressure back and then I had to get out of the knee, do whatever I could possibly do, get the knee off my belly, which of course led to an arm bar, and then I tapped to that. >> Yeah. >> Which is kind of where that naturally progresses. >> Yeah. >> So, Dagan, I would tap to so much less than the knee on belly. >> Yeah. >> Like it like I I know that I would. >> I will never not hear knee on belly. >> Knee on belly. Knee on belly. >> I'm going to have to say it really deliberately. Knee on belly. >> Knee on belly is a jiu-jitsu move. >> Not a jiu-jitsu. >> to be the next jiu-jitsu. >> Knee on belly. >> So, I will say that So, Harrison, whenever he started wrestling, he knew nothing, and he's starting at like at this point in seventh grade, you know, there's a lot of kids that have been doing it for a while. So, he's going out and doing these tournament stuff, and he's I mean after a little while, the main thing that we told the coach was like, "Can you just help him know how to not get body slammed?" Cuz we feel like like that's one thing like getting pinned, but getting body slammed three or four times in front of everybody. So, we asked him about it one time, we're like, "Hey, man, are you doing okay? Like, are you good with this?" And he was like He's like, "Once I got past the point of wearing this this What do they call it? The this" He goes He goes, "Once I got past that I'm walking out in this thing, I figure everything else is kind of easy." >> That's good. >> Yeah, that's pretty true. >> And I will tell you like I'm I'm proud cuz a lot of people, you know, if they weren't into it, they don't want their kids to be into it, and I feel that. Like if, you know, James wants something, I'm like, "Well, our family doesn't really do that." It's like, "Hey, it's not about your interest, Dad. Get out of the way." But, you know, to let your son do something that you don't quite understand, right? Because it wasn't like a part of it like it made you feel that. But then the thing about wrestling is like to a certain degree just about any sport can make you tough-ish because practice is usually not fun, learning a new skill is not fun. Whether it's tennis or baseball or football or basketball, like there's going to be some struggle, some uphill battle, whether it's just, you know, you know, getting the skill set down or something like that. There's nothing harder than a wrestling practice right? The duel is almost like, great, let me put on this unitard and go out there and like hopefully not get embarrassed in front of my entire family tree. But that's way easier than practice because practice is brutal. It is It is so unbelievably brutal and it's also one of those things where effort counts, but only if there's equal skill sets involved, right? And that's the same thing with with jiu-jitsu. It's like, you walk in, you're athletic, you're tall, you used to play football, like you you've done some things and then all of a sudden you just get, you know, some guy might be a little bit out of shape, you know, some kid that's a little bit younger and all that and you just get mauled. >> Yep. >> And you're like, wait, this isn't how it's supposed to be, but it is that way and then you just have to reckon with, well, okay, what does this mean? Am I going to be defined by this moment of of getting dominated or am I going to keep coming back to try to figure out, if, you know, this skill set which is worthwhile. But the toughness that your son is going to gain from from just practice. If he never even >> He's like, we we talked about it all the time. He took a baseball in the face this year and had like a huge cut, stitches on it and he's everybody else is freaking out and he's just looking at it and he's like, oh, well, you know, we're get this taken care of. He's laying there getting stitches in his face and stuff and just sitting there and I'm like, a year ago this is not how he would have reacted to this stuff. >> wrestling. >> And he is just like tough as nails now. Another day he got a hook in his neck and it went all the way through and I had to shove it through. >> Oh, man. >> And uh he has set there the whole time. It was like a 20-minute or a deal on pulling out that hook and he has set there the whole time. >> you have to clip the barb off and push it? >> Yeah, but it was like poked out, but it wasn't past the curve and it wasn't past the barb on the exit side, so we had to push that. Then later the same friend that called me back at 4:20, he's a he's our doctor and he looked at it and he was like, man, you probably should have called me on that one. That was really close to his aorta or whatever. it is. >> Well, and and the one thing that I will tell you like even with with wrestlers like your son, you learn something about yourself whenever you make it through a practice and you're like, I can't believe that. I don't know if I could survive another one. And then you just show up tomorrow and you do the same thing and you survive again. And you know, whenever I you know, would lead workouts on Sunday night and things like that, I would always focus in typically on two people. And it was Shelby and Jermaine. And the reason why I would focus in on them is I was like, I'm trying to make them look uncomfortable. Both of them collegiate wrestlers at the University of Central Oklahoma, one of the most dominant collegiate wrestlers in the entire country. >> of why we went through the workout that we went through the night that I came there cuz >> he was constantly yelling at me every time, too. He's like, "Adam, get your legs up. Adam, get your legs up." >> need I just I just tried to go the whole time without him saying my name. I was like, that's all I care about. >> That's always going to happen. >> Well, the thing is is like I can tell because the thing is I think to this day I haven't been able to make Shelby look uncomfortable. And there's Jermaine, there's one thing. There's this move called hip hops, which is just for whatever reason it's the only athletic thing that does not agree with that man. Uh and so I just whenever whenever I do abs with everybody, I'll do nine or 10 different moves. I'll be like, "All right, next move we're doing uh V-ups. Uh Jermaine, you're going to do hip hops though. Ready, go." And then like I just make him do hip hops the entire time. But it's like when you can make somebody that is so acquainted with discomfort uncomfortable, then you know you've gotten them into resilience territory. Like we are pushing into some areas that they don't quite understand. The thing is I sometimes forget that there are other people other than those two that are that they were dying 15 minutes ago. And so it's like here I am still trying to torture these other guys. >> But it was good for you. You're here. You're alive. Talk about Kyle's growth because there have been so many times where Kyle did not do a very good job with that and ran people out of the gym and they never came back. But Kyle's done a good job of dialing it back and adjusting his uh intensity towards certain people and away from others and like letting them sort of acclimate a little bit before he starts giving them the intensity. Cuz if you give him, you know, Kyle level 10 day one, who can Who can manage that? Not very many. >> Yeah, and to your point, I felt really cared for when he was shoving his knee into my stomach. >> Okay, now he's not joking. So, explain explain what you mean. >> Because this goes back to what Russ did, cuz that's Russ did the same thing to me. Yeah, hey hey, buddy. I understand that's a Well, that's not a >> And like sincerely, it was like I never felt like he was doing something that he was out like there he was in control of it. It didn't feel comfortable to me. >> Yeah. >> It felt like he could make it worse for me by doing something very small if he if he would wanted to. >> Yeah. >> You know? And but he also felt like he could just, you know, he's like try to move, you know? And it's like I'm down here like I'm going to like I'm trying to live. And he's like try to move. Try to move. >> That's That's kind of like what in verse seven it's saying that they cannot submit. They're sitting there being like try to move. Try to submit. >> I I cannot. I cannot I cannot do it. >> Well, isn't there there's a discipleship connection here too not to, you know, take this, you know, any any further than it has to go, but like if you were being discipled by a person, not just discipled generically by the church or by the small group or the youth group or something like that, but when you have an individual that is discipling you, don't you have those moments as well? Those Russ tapping you on the chest moments where it's like And again, a disciple doesn't necessarily have to be older than you. They need to be more experienced as a Christian than you. So, it's not how many years you've been a Christian, it's how many hours. And so, you could be being discipled by someone much younger than you that has spent hundreds of more hours in the word than you have. So, just to make that clear. But sometimes you just need someone to pat you on the chest and be like, that's just discomfort. We're going to keep going. But then there are times where it's like, okay, no no no, this wasn't discomfort, something went pop. Now it's, hey, let's stop. Let's figure out what happened here. Like let's make sure that you're okay. But you're right, like that's that's the thing about jujitsu and with most most gyms, if you go into a do bro gym, you know, you might not experience this, but for most gyms, no one in there's trying to prove something to their father that left when they were five, right? There's no there's no medals given away for practice. And so, if you are the more experienced guy, it is incumbent upon you to take care of the other person. And so, there were a lot of times where I didn't know young in my, you know, white belt days, I didn't know I was I was dead to rights. And the person would essentially tap for me. So, they wouldn't crank the thing that they had because here I am thinking I can get out of this when there's a 0% chance that I'm getting out of this, so they they tap for you. And then they explain it to you later like, "Hey, I had you in this position. Had you kept going the way you were going, the odds of you getting hurt or you hurting me were pretty good. When you're in that position, you just have to tap, right?" And so, it's good to have that voice in an jujitsu gym. You may have a couple of dozen voices like that because if they're better than you, you just have to take the butt whooping because that's how you're going to get better. >> Well, and on the accountability side, like if you are have your mind set on the flesh, to have other people be able to put a mirror in front of you is important because you may not know the amount of trouble that you're in. >> Right. >> And you don't even know that it's that you need to be tapping out, bro. Like you're in you don't even know that you should tap out. And so, it's it's it it is a super important to put yourself in a position to put people around you that you trust that can be that mirror to you when when ultimately like we talked about before, >> before, flesh doesn't go away. >> Right. >> a fight and when you're when you're losing it a little bit, those other people are helping. >> When you say mirror, that what does Wes Huff say on the Joe Rogan experience? Like the law is a mirror. You if you try to clean the mud off your face with a mirror, all you do is smudge it and make it worse. That goes right back to verse seven for it does not submit to God's law. Like the the point is not, "Hey, be a very good do-gooder rule follower." Like follow God's law. The entire point is are we in Adam or are we in Christ? Like that's the entire thrust of the section. >> Yeah, I was just going to say it is frustrating. We've talked about that frustration in the last episode about we know what we should do and we know all the things that like are the criteria that puts us in the best position to live by the spirit, to have our mindset to the spirit, and yet we daily are waking up to the flesh and we are going that direction and then yet the word of God tells us about this idea of putting the flesh to death and then but we still are dealing with it, which is sometimes, you know, like the the C.S. Lewis book um oh, the great divorce where the lizard is on his shoulder and he's just kind of like tamed it but hadn't put it to death and things like that. Like it's a weird thing to conceptualize the idea of that we should always be striving to put the sin in our lives to death as my buddy Matt Carter right says, you know, just stop it. Stop it. Like sometimes you just need to go to a friend and say just stop it. Like do not allow this to be a thing anymore. I don't care if you've dealt with it from the time you were 12 to 30, whatever. Stop it. You're going, man. Get away from it. Um but then it's always tough to see that to where even whenever you put one thing to death, it's like whack-a-mole. You know, you put one thing to death and then you realize that there's other things and there's a next thing and a next thing and it is somewhat a constant a constant movement towards these areas that you wipe one thing off your off your face and you can see the next layer that you're going to go after, which is daunting and encouraging at the same time. I It's frustrating is what it is. >> So some of this uh some of the reading that I did about Sproul when it's from R.C. Sproul when he was talking about seven and eight, he tied it back to Romans 3:9-20. And so we've been talking about Paul, you know, weaving this story back and forth. And when we go back to chapter 3, verse 11, he's quoting the Old Testament here, and it says, "None is righteous. No, not one. No one understands. No one seeks God. All have turned aside. Together they have become worthless. No one does good, not even one." So, that was reassuring to me when I went back to that. And the same struggle that I mentioned in last week's episode about the difficulties of pursuing the American dream or you know, where it says like the rich man can't enter heaven because it's it's it's more likely for the a camel to go through the the eye of a needle, right? Well, it's it's this same thing here where we're there's it's the the question of a total depravity, right? Where we're so depraved, we're at the point to where we can't rely on ourselves. We're constantly in the flesh, just like you guys have been talking, going back and forth, back to it over and over and over again. And when we find ourselves in ourselves or find ourselves in those moments, we have to go to the spirit in order to get out of that. >> Well, in in the previous episode we talked about, you know, hummingbirds and buzzards. Well, if if if Paul just sat there and focused on or or any of us, but I'm thinking of Paul in chapter 7, where he's talking about I why do I do the things that I don't want to do? If you focus on those things, it's like if if if somebody who is suffering, if you want them to slip into depression, have them focus on their suffering. >> Mhm. >> Yeah, right? So, if you want if if the devil wants somebody to, you know, he's up there accusing the entire time. So, anytime you step into the flesh, it's that's who you are. And if you focus on that part, right? If you focus on the hard part of jiu-jitsu, then it on the practice and on all of that, like you're you're not going to enjoy really the fruit that jiu-jitsu brings. The hardship of all of that, of anything that you learn how to do. If you focus on the hardship, then you're going to quit. >> Oh, that that's what people talk about with uh Navy SEAL training with Buds. And uh you'll hear some of the people that run the training, they say, "You know when we get some of the biggest drops? It's not when they're doing log PT. It's not when we tell them to get cold, wet, and sandy. It's not whenever we're doing a billion pull-ups or push-ups or any of those types of things. It's the evening before Hell Week. We'll sit them all down in the surf, and we make them watch the sunset. And they know that the moment the sun disappears, we're going to crush them. A lot of people quit right then, when they're at a resting heart rate. But it's the anticipation of what's to come that becomes so overwhelming. And then you hear people like I think it was either Chris Kyle or someone else. Their entire thing was like, you know, cuz SEAL training's like 6 months long or something like that. Like it People think it's like a 2 weeks of torture. Like yeah, Hell Week's actually pretty early, but I think it's like 6 weeks, and then there's like 2 years of training before you're actually like a SEAL SEAL. It's something like that. And he's just like, "I just I knew they had to feed us. Like by the regulation of the Navy, they had to feed us three meals a day. They could keep us from sleeping. They could keep us from, you know, resting. They could keep us from doing all that stuff. They had to feed us. So, after breakfast, I knew all I had to do was make it to lunchtime. And then after lunch, I knew all I had to do was I had to make it till dinner, right? And I may not get to sleep again before I reach breakfast, but I know they got to feed me. And so, for a lot of guys, they they're they they quit at at some point because they can't see All they can see is the entirety of what's in front of them, and they're not just focusing on what is my next right step. That's why I'm kind of anti-goal setting, because it's like just set a standard and take the next right step. Right? It's okay to have goals, but just don't focus on it. >> I I love that, and I and I wrote uh down in the last episode uh Daniel, the Book of Daniel, but you you mentioned submit to early. So, at the end of Daniel, uh he has this vision, and it's really bothersome to him, right? And so he starts to pray. He prays for 3 weeks. Right? And then in 3 weeks, this angel appears to him and was like, "Hey, God sent me 3 weeks ago, but I encountered the Prince of Persia." Is what he refers it to, but it was a demon, right? And then basically had a 3-week long battle that Michael, the the Archangel, Michael was called in and and, you know, kind of cleared the cleared the ring a little bit and then he showed up. Well, there's lots going on there. One is when you cry out to God, he's he he responds. Right? He doesn't sit back and is like, "Man, I Kyle, I hear you. I'm going to see how you play out the next few days to see like we'll we'll see, right?" Like he responds. Another is we're talking about the battle between the flesh and the spirit. It is real. I mean, God is sending angels to your rescue that are getting intercepted and fighting to come to you, right? Um and then the last is man, Daniel didn't Daniel didn't pray for 2 or 3 days and quit. And just think, "Well, I prayed about it. I'll just wait for God to answer it." He didn't pray once. Uh he didn't I mean, imagine praying for 3 weeks about the same thing for 3 weeks faithful and then uh you know, praying. So, it's like pray until God answers, right? And and a lot of Christians don't do that. It's like man, I'm going to throw up this prayer that this that your sickness, you know, that your cancer goes away. And then that's it. It's like, "Man, don't do that. Don't submit too early regardless of the circumstance." >> Paul. The thorn in his flesh. >> Mhm. >> We know it was some sort of physical malady of which, you know, what kind we don't know. A lot of people speculate, "Oh, something to do with his eyes." But, you know, he talks about the pain he was in. So, it's like, "Okay, well, if he was having vision problems, I don't know that people would see that as painful." But, it depends on the context. Who knows? But it we don't have any evidence it was taken away before he was killed. Like we have we have no evidence whatsoever. And so this is Paul. This is a third of the New Testament that is struggling. His dark night of the soul was apparently persistent, right? And this is the same guy that while he's languishing in prison, post snake bitten, post shipwreck, post flog, post beaten, all of that, something, that thorn in the flesh, was the thing that he just couldn't get over. He got over all that other stuff that would have crushed lesser men, but this thorn was apparently so like flummoxing and confusing and painful to where it's just like it dominated his thoughts. God never took it away. And so for a lot of guys, I think we get in this entitled position as Christians where we think like we're owed, we're owed comfort, we're owed ease. And the only guarantee is that we should suffer as Christ suffered. And as we continue in verse 8, it's like okay, want to be a Christian? You sure? You sure about this? Because that means you're going to share in Christ's sufferings. Because there's nothing that's going to keep God's love from you, but look again, just go to the end of chapter 8 guys. If you want to read ahead just a little bit, go to the end of chapter 8 and look at the things that are listed there. Those are things that are coming for us. But it's again, it goes back to what I was talking about in Mark's sermon. He's talking about how it's not just that we were saved and are being saved, it's that we will be saved. We will be glorified someday, and we will count what we're going through right now, we like we won't even count the cost cuz it'll be completely negligible compared to our future glorification and our glorified bodies. And as we see in Revelation, where there's going to be a day as if every tear has never been shed. Every single tear will be of, you know, picked up as if it had never been shed to begin with. >> When we've spoken about unconditional election in the past, I know you've been vulnerable and mentioned like your fear about the boys, right? And your fear that if unconditional election is true, how is that fair how is that fair for my boys? I can't figure out how that lands with what we were just talking about. What what do you feel like as far as submitting to God and how it relates to that? And do you feel like that is a burden that is difficult for you to take off because it's clearly something you've mentioned on the show multiple times. And so it's something that's in the front of your mind, but is that something that you feel like is is maybe holding you back from where you need to be? >> Not necessarily like it it's it's a fine question where I feel like I've come to it is my job is not to worry. My job is to present as much gospel and put as much gospel kindling around those boys as possible because what I also believe is that I can't save them. >> Mhm. >> Right? I believe fervently that God saves first names, not last names. But at the same time, how many examples do we have of God delighting in saving a household? >> Mhm. >> A people. >> Mhm. >> Uh cuz I think I don't know if I asked Mark this on the show or if I maybe asked him in private or something like that. But it was like, "Okay. So, we got So, you believe he believes in the rapture, he teaches the rapture, all those different things. Like all of a sudden Christians are just going to disappear from the earth." And I was like, "Hey, uh what about those uh you know, husband and wife pairs that are both Christians and their newborn 6-month-old baby >> Yep. >> that elect, not elect, we don't really know yet and all that, but baby's here, parents are gone. What happens to the baby? And, you know, when you look at John Piper's work, when you talk with Mark Hitchcock and different things like that, they're they're like it seems that God often loves to save entire families and that God shows a tremendous amount of uh focus and love on children. >> Mhm. >> Right? And there's an age of accountability, uh you know, before which there's there's no reckoning with the sin. The kid couldn't possibly reckon with their own depravity. And so, then there's kids that die in utero, all like all those different things. And so, for me, I just kind of had to come to the fact where my biggest worry is like rapture comes before the boys, you know, before the gospel gets in there or something like that, but then there's still time even after that before everything's done and you don't have a chance to accept it again, but I just kind of had to accept my position to where it's like I I want the outcome to be a certain way, but I can't force the outcome. And that's the same for anybody that's got that one more in their life, that person that if they were to accept Christ, you know, it would change everything about everything about everything. You can put the kindling around them, but you can't set set it ablaze. That's that's God's work. >> I don't think that's the answer Kyle Thompson would have given six or 12 months ago. Like honestly, I see a lot of growth in you and that you've been able to get to that point and be able to give that up. So I think I think that shows a lot of growth. >> One, again, for anybody that else that's struggling with it, that's currently in the process of it, it's not something that I've completely figured out because those are those when you're laying down and you're trying to fall asleep and the things that just run through your head that you're worried about, that you need to be worried about. I understand why a man would be worried about that and some people are even worried about having kids and not, you know, like progressive leftist is like, I don't want to have kids because of climate change. For conservative Christian, you know, folk, it's just like, oh my gosh, what if they're not elect? Like and we have four babies because we were wanting to be fruitful and multiply, but not all of them get to go to heaven and because we honored one thing, we damned someone to hell. And so I I understand the theological problems with someone even holding to that opinion, but at some point it's just you have to understand where you're at in reference to what's happening. Like I used to get wrapped around the axle about the outcomes of games. Playing lose Cardinals baseball games, Oklahoma City Thunder basketball games and all that and it's like, bro, you're watching it on your couch. >> Yep. >> Like you're not even in the arena where you could, you know, butterfly effect potentially say that one funny joke while someone's at the free throw line that causes them to miss and then the team ends up winning by one point. Like you have nothing to do with anything about anything and you're letting it dominate how you treat people in your life, how you act, how you carry yourself at work the next day. And it's just like the sooner you can get to figuring out where am I in reference to the problem or where am I in reference to the solution, the the sooner you will take the correct seat. And you know, when it comes to my kids' salvation, the correct seat is I am to be the head of the household and I am to raise them up with the help of my wife in the nurture and admonition of the Lord and get as much gospel in, on, and around them as possible. That is my position and so I just have to accept it. >> Well, and I know people kids that have grown up in homes like that with intentional parents that are far from the Lord. And I've known kids that have grown up in a system or abusive or terrible relationships with non-believing parents who are missionaries, right? It is like we we are not responsible. God loves them enough to have a plan and a trajectory for them. We get to participate in that. The thing that we're called to do is plant the seed of the gospel. >> That's right. >> Yeah. >> If you've done that with your kids, it's all you can do. >> Yeah. >> The Holy Spirit will grow and nurture that. They're going to they're going to learn from you or whatever you know, arguments, they're going to learn watching you and your spouse make up from arguments. They're going to watch all of the good and the bad, but but that seed that was planted of the truth of the gospel is what grows and nurtures over time. And there is there is kind of this desperation cling as a parent, you know, like we you know, microcosm of that I've I've my oldest is uh just graduated high school actually yesterday and and we've spent this entire year was focused on where's he going to go to school? Like and it's and it's we're going down two paths of we know what he's good at, we know he's ridiculously smart, he's got a ton of opportunity, and we as his parents want to launch him into the most uh like the we see so much potential and we want him to maximize it, and we want to do what we can do to help him maximize that potential. Um and so, at the same time, we're believing and praying that God's will for his future would happen, right? And those two roads deviate sometimes cuz it's like what we know in our in our minds a little bit further down the road than he is and a little bit more mature, we see what makes sense from our perspective. And it's like okay, well, he's not leaning that like it it makes more sense for you to do this. >> Yeah. >> And what ultimately where he landed wasn't what we 4 months ago even would have said what we would say if we could pick something for you would be A, and he's picked B. Since he picked B, the things that God has revealed about what plan B is actually going to end up looking like is so much better than what we would have imagined for plan A. >> Yeah, well, you would have imagined it for sure. >> all of those things have lined up, and it's like oh. >> Well, and Dagan, like, you and lovely lady boy, like, y'all y'all are smart people, you you're godly people, you're submitted to the will of God and all that, but even as you're describing that, I remember being in discussions with Joby about what his eldest son was going to be doing cuz I met him when he was 16. And you know, he ends up, you know, going to Florida State, you know, but basically does one or two semesters and realizes, man, this just ain't for me. Like, you know, not higher education, it was what he kind of got into, what he kind of got pulled towards, you know, as he was out at Florida State, and the stuff he thought he wanted to study, and the types of businesses that he wanted to go into. And now he's, you know, if you look at, you know, his where he's at, it's like, oh, he's a college dropout. But what he's doing is he's working for like an outfitter, like a hunting outfitter, like out of Nebraska or something like that, and he's learning every trade about every hunting season territorially from Nebraska to Canada, from waterfowl to fish to big game to all those types of things, and he most importantly, he is in his element. Now, I remember talking to him at, you know, his Joey's kitchen counter. Remember asking him, and he's talking about finance. Like he wants to go into high finance and, you know, do stuff like that. Could he have made it through a degree program and been successful doing that? I have no doubt cuz he had the mental wherewithal and brain power to make that happen. He would have been He would have been in the wrong place. Yeah. He would have been in the wrong seat. >> and the future that I think you want for yourself is built in the flesh. >> Oh, yeah. >> Because it's all we know, it's what we know, it's worldly, it's it's it's I want I don't want my son to to struggle. Like I don't want my kids to struggle. But what do I what have I learned about struggle? >> You had to. >> Like you have to struggle. Like you like I I want I need to want my son to struggle. I need to he needs to battle. I we spend way too much time as parents especially I think in this generation and maybe a maybe previous generations would say this, like when they're little, we protect. That's your job. Where you're going around and you're plugging in all of these things in all the outlets. You've got baby gates everywhere. You are protecting them from the world around them. We have too many parents that are have middle school and high school kids and they're still in protection mode. They're fighting every battle for the kid. They're calling the the the friend who said something, I'm calling mom and I'm attacking and then and then what? Well, when you get married and you have an issue, who are you running to? You're running to mom to come in and and intercede on your behalf in your relationship when you have to transition from protection to preparation. >> Right. >> Right. And too many people don't do that. >> It's weird though. So, two things I want want to say and I think I think this goes right really well with what you were saying about your son is that for us to realize that we're not responsible doesn't mean that we somehow get a pass of responsibility. So like we have the responsibility to do this right. We have the responsibility to not be a stumbling block on either side of that. So not be a stumbling block by giving them um habits that don't have to do with like we go to church on Sunday. We do these things. Like you said, stack up the kindling around it. This is what we do. This is what it means to be a faithful believer. I'm going to show you that. I'm not going to give you a stumbling back block. I'm also not going to give you a stumbling block on the other side to where I do it all wrong in front of you and then you grow up pushing away from it because I was so dogmatic about how I wanted to be perfect in this, but be a different person at home and stuff like that. Um it's just that's where that's where so like in the same parents, the second thing is this same parents that that you're saying that like make the phone call or are too protective on some things though, I have seen those same parents are the ones that are oblivious to the real things they should be protecting their kids from. >> Oh, yeah. >> Same parents that are like >> social media. >> My kid is 10, 12, whatever. Their phones in their bedroom at night and all this stuff. I mean like we've all seen the skit where the dad walks in and he's like, "Hey buddy. You know, there's a stack of uh Hustlers over there in the corner. Just uh don't take a peek at those tonight, okay? And by the way, yeah, that that kid from school's going to be over there like just saying bad stuff about you all night long, but don't worry about that. You just have a good night's sleep, you know? Like it's it is a weird balance between trying to stay wise in all those things. That's really where wisdom is and that's really where this is talking about. It's saying you need to be in tune with the spirit and the spirit is in tune with the kingdom. You need to have And Jesus talked about this all the time. The kingdom of God is near. The kingdom of God is here. Turn your mind. This is what the kingdom of God looks like. It is basically you need to re-alter your thinking on all of it. You need to re-alter your thinking on the things that you think you're doing good that are going to make things out just like you want them. You got to give those up. And you also have to re-alter your thinking on the things that maybe you don't think matter that I'm saying they matter way more than you think they matter. And I want to make make sure that you're taking responsibility for those things. And it is a constant like the only thing that I can say that I do know is being a part of a strong community of believers gives you a existential existential chance at at doing that right and reading the word of God daily. And I would say with your spouse somewhere in that worship of that is like to communicate. And that puts you on the playing field of being able to do this well. But it's so so hard not to not to overstep in one way or the other to know when to take a step back, when to take a step forward. So >> Let me give you one more piece of reassurance in in what you're dealing with with your son making a decision that I think what you said was like you felt you you and your wife thought he should go one direction and he's going the opposite direction. Well, 25-year flashback if that had been the same decision for my wife, I never would have met my wife because she had the exact same thing with her parents where her parents said, you know, this checks every single box. You should be going to this school. Like this is the one that's the right decision for you. It makes the most sense. And she was absolutely convinced that that was not the right path for her. She needed to go this direction. And so she didn't know why and who knows really what the reason why why it was, but we met there and we ended up getting married. And so now, you know, I I would feel like that there was probably a reason behind that. And so, same thing to give you some reassurance, like, who knows what those things are. I'm glad that you're already seeing it, but like, it's going to be so much more incredible 15, 20 years from now when you look back and then you're like, oh, wow, that's why. >> Joseph's dad did not want him to be thrown in a pit. >> Yeah, yeah. >> That's right. Yeah, I mean, it's just it's crazy when you think of it the that way because you don't want that. You have You don't want to have to watch that part of your kid's story, and yet if you had a choice between that and and not getting to see them fully fulfill their role of what God's called them to, especially like in Joseph's situation, well, I think at the end of that, he was praising the Lord for, you know, what he had done, and that was part of it. >> Well, think of think of successful people cuz I was watching or I was listening to Joe Rogan who was recently interviewing a really fantastic I guess you could call him rock blues guitar singer guy named Marcus King. And all the people I shouldn't say all. An overwhelming majority of people that are successful in the arts, comedy, music, you know, painting, things like that, their upbringings were atrocious. They were so hard, they were so rough, there was abuse, there were just these horrible things. You were asking me in between recordings about a recent fight UFC fight between Khamzat Chimaev and Sean Strickland. When you hear Sean Strickland who, you know, against all odds beat beat Khamzat Chimaev to become the middleweight champion of the UFC for the second time, um his upbringing was as horrible as you could imagine with sexual abuse, physical abuse, substance abuse, just and you know, he says some wild and crazy things, and this is not me cosigning the things that he says during press conferences or things like that, but then you see what gets forged in somebody when there's that much pressure, right? And then when people become successful in the face of all this struggle and pressure, the number one thing they want for their progeny is to not experience struggle and pressure. >> Yeah. >> And so, my my commercial to parents out there is not to snowplow the the pressure and struggle away from your kids, but you might have to get more creative to introduce pressure and struggle into a kid's life when they're waking up on, you know, in high thread count sheets in a in a well-air-conditioned and well-lit, you know, house that's large square feet and you're taking them in a safe car to their private school and all those different things. You just might need to get a little creative. But, struggle is required. And that's what people don't understand. That's what people don't want. And I've talked about this a lot, but it bears repeating. The number of men that said, "This is what happened." I was doing Dominion interviews in It was a particular day, and it was interview after interview after interview where guys were talking about struggle. "Man, I just I'm really struggling in my marriage right now. Man, I'm really struggling to you know, with porn and masturbation. I'm really struggling to to find guys in my life that I'm blah blah." And finally, I kind of snap on this guy in a loving way, hopefully. Uh but, the this one guy said struggle and in the middle of his sentence, I go, "You know what? Actually, you haven't been struggling." And he just kind of got wide-eyed and looked at me, and I was like, "Because if you had struggled, you'd have more victory by now." Cuz what does it take to get over your pornography and masturbation addiction? Struggle. You got to struggle. How did you get 50 lb overweight? Because you stopped struggling. Right? Getting through that workout, getting through that second chicken breast or those those, you know, fourth and fifth eggs for your dinner or whatever. That's a struggle. It is much easier to eat the cheeseburger and the fries and wash it down with a milkshake. I understand that. Struggle requires a different path. Resilience requires a different path. And so, for us, they can We've had this discussion about the boys cuz my boys are six and four. It's like, we're going to make sure we put them in things like wrestling, like jujitsu, hard academic programs to where struggle is just part of the air that they breathe. So much so that when they're removed from an environment that has a lot of struggle, that that environment feels weird. >> Yeah. >> The environment that has a lot of comfort and a lot of amenities, that that's like uh almost like you got to get it off me. It's like I want them to have the mindset of the only person at the resort that's in the gym. Cuz the number one place that people are not on some all-inclusive resort is typically the gym. Anytime of day you're going to be able to get a good workout in and no one's going to be on your machine cuz ain't nobody going to be in there. I want them to be the the the adults on vacation that are getting after it. You know what I mean? >> Well, there's that circle, right? Hard times Hard times make strong men. Strong men make easy times. >> Good times make weak men. Weak men make hard times. Yeah. Hard times. >> So, it's like or easy times make weak men. Weak men make hard times. And it's it it is hard as a parent. Like I want I want to lift my kids up and I want to, you know, wrap them in bubble wrap. >> Mhm. >> Um but they're going to leave my home one day. And if I haven't equipped them to, you know, the if I haven't equipped them to fight, it it We're talking in Ephesians in church, you know, and it's all the armor. Well, you have to have armor to thwart off the attack, but you also have to have weapons, right? So, it's offense and defense. And you got to be able to to have both. You can teach them all the offense you want, but if they can't defend themselves, then it's like the they're toast, right? But we don't want to see our kids like that's a hard thing to watch. It's uh watching a 300, you know, where they send the kids out, the movie 300. >> Yeah. >> Where they're like Spartans at like age Like it was ridiculously young age. Like 10. >> It's like a go-gear I can't remember what >> Yeah, they're like, "Here's a spear." And they disappear into the woods, right? And it's like um they took pride that their kid was out that that it was time for them to go do that because they knew what was returning. You know, and we have to we have to have faith in what's returning when we send them into struggle. >> When this goes back to what Russ was saying, and so as you were saying that I was thinking about uh I met this guy uh back when I lived in Lawton he had gone to Cameron or something like that. He was involved with the the BCM or BS you BS you whatever it was called on campus and he was from Africa and he was from a particular tribe. I can't remember the exact tribe. I think it might be the Messiah maybe a different tribe. But at certain age they send you into the wilderness with a spear and nothing else and you have to come back with the head of a lion. And the thing is is here there are basically three outcomes that is experienced by the community. If you come back with the head of the lion, they will put that lion on the top of your hut or over the entrance of your hut so that everyone in the community knows a man lives here, right? If you don't return and it's found that you you died in the process or in the pursuit of that lion or even you got killed in the fight or something like that, also virtuous. There would be respect placed on your name because you did the thing, you just weren't successful, right? And I'm hearing this kid describe it I'm like 16. He's like describing almost like he's ordering dinner. Well, the the point is you have to wait for the lion to attack you cuz when his mouth is open that's where you want to put the spear, right? Because you know, you go through the base of the brain and all that type of stuff and it's like, "All right, we're not the same person." It's like, you know, this is this is very different. I thought it was just hard growing up in Lawton, Oklahoma. This is you have and you're barefoot while you're doing this, sir, so congratulations to you. So, those are the first two options. Third option is you return back to your community without the head of a lion and you are forever branded as a coward. And there's no second chance. There's no redo. There's no oh well, but what but what if I'm able to to bring sustenance or or positivity to my people through some other thing or I find a different way to grow a crop in this particular area. You are forever branded as a coward cuz you did not do what that culture calls manhood. And I just think about it for parents. For parents that have been holding up cuz when a kid is trying to learn how to walk, what do you do? You pick them up and you hold them. And then when they fall a little bit, you pick them up and reset them. And some parents forget to take their hands off the waists of their children, and now their kid is 10, 15, 25, whatever, and they're still holding on. You don't want your kids to be in the world with weak legs. They got to be able to stand on their own, right? >> Well, and and so many, you know, there there are so many stories today, and it's so sad about like, you know, uh there were some here in in the Edmond community where there's like 20-something year-old people getting, you know, in trouble for child pornography or something like that, where it's like, the story of that where, hey, I I don't know where that kid went wrong, or I don't know what he was kept from struggling from, but but if you keep your kids from struggle, you potentially wear the shame of them not facing it, right? Like, they come back without a lion's head, they did not face the struggle, and now we have a family that wears the shame of avoiding it, right? So, it's like, you'd ra- you're so much stronger, smarter, better on the other side of it, you know? Hard things are the gateway to great things, you know? And you're never going to get there unless you go through it. >> It for some reason that whole analogy is just reminding me of like, that is the shame of flesh. Like, we all signed up for this deal. Abraham made a covenant. We're like, yeah, you do your side, we got our side. We'll we get it done. All of us tried. Every single one of them went out, had to come back without the lion's head. Had to come back and be like, upon death, didn't get it done. Best I can offer you is a dead lamb. You know, or a dove or something push my sin back. And then we basically have Jesus who came and was like I'll do it for you. I'll go get your lion's head. Comes bring it back to our tent. Nothing we did. There's no second chance for us. We just have to accept you know, that we can accept that somebody else did it for us, you know. >> And that how many Christians can continue to struggle even after that to try to earn something they already own? >> don't live in the idea that he's already he's he's already claimed it for you. He's already put that lion head on your house and saying, "Hey, one of mine lives here." Instead we we still beating around the bush even though knowing that we can't do it but don't want to come back and face the shame still, so. But yeah. >> When I as we continue here what we wind to the close I I really want to talk about something in verse eight because again there's so many fours in this first section of eight. But one of the shortest verses in this first section of eight is those who are in the flesh cannot please God. So another way to say is those who are in Adam cannot please God. And so this goes to a discussion that I've seen come up for a lot of street evangelists, Christian apologists, that Cliff can't pronounce his last name guy, no one knows for sure that goes to college campuses and engages with these these kids. It's always this some version of this question. So are you saying people that don't believe in Jesus can't be moral? And I've seen a lot of apologists and even just general people struggle with that question. It's not that well, I'll just I'll I'll give you Keller's answer to that. It's that if we're in the flesh or in Adam uh we can do right. It's impossible to do right, but we can't do it in a way that pleases God because we do it with enmity towards him. Right? And I think that's the thrust of this verse. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Because you could do something moral. You could do something that's in accordance with the Ten Commandments or the extension of the hundreds of other laws, but your heart is not in it. Your heart is not in the right place. Uh it's almost like when your kid is begrudging in their submission to something that you have authority over, something that you are imposing on them for their betterment. Like you would rather them do it with do it immediately and do it with a happy heart, right? And so uh that that's just something that really stood out to me with with verse eight is that's helpful for me when someone is to say, "Look, the the most moral people I know don't go to church and all that." And I'm like, "Well, first of all, what is morality? To what authority are you appealing to to even say what's moral versus not moral? That assumes that there is a moral law, which assumes there's a moral lawgiver. Okay, great." But then it's like, "Even when they do well, it can't please God because they're still in the flesh and not in the spirit." >> And I I took So, that sentence, I took it for the words as it's written on the page for those who are in the flesh cannot please God. And I felt a little beat down by that, but then again, like we've said earlier, I'm looking for a but. I'm looking for a therefore. Thank goodness, it comes in the very next verse. The next verse, not only do we get a but, but we get a you. You, us, however, are not in the flesh, but in the spirit. Again, thank goodness. Just got beat down a little bit. Uh if I'm in and I feel like I'm in the flesh. And said, Paul says the same thing. He said that back in uh seven. Multiple times. Over and over and over. Wretched man that I am. We've all felt that before. We continue to feel that way. So, when you read those who are in the flesh cannot please God, that's defeating. That makes me feel like I'm a failure. Right. But here we go. Here comes the but. But, you are not in the flesh. You are in the spirit. >> I have a friend that uh actually we have a friend. I won't call him out here, but I have a friend that we've kind of gotten we've been around and around on this before on whether or not um outside of Christ anybody can do any good. And I I land on the idea and in this verse I think kind of um still shows that I believe that there are people that do good. And but I just think that that definition that that like this verse is key is that God has never has has never said that doing good is the thing that brings uh his delight. >> Right. >> It's profession and that seems like hard to say is it be like the only way you can make God so so really Christ is the only thing. But the Bible even says it like at the beginning that that he was pleased with him and Christ was delighted in us and because of his delight in us God's had this plan. So like the idea that our good can sometimes even look good to God. Like that's where I think that the where the difference is is I I believe I know people that do good things. I know people that do things that are kingdom-ish. Like honestly, you know, like care for the You can't say that, you know, caring for the homeless the same things that they've told us to do, you know, care for the widows, care for the homeless. These there's no laws like there's people that are not Christians that do care for those people sometimes better than Christians. That's good. I think what this tells us is God's not looking for good. He's looking for his son in us. That's the only thing that delights him is the glory of his son. And that when we have that we are his delight because because of that spirit, you know, we see because that spirit cries out Abba Father. It is like the voice of the son becomes our voice. >> And in whose name are we doing the good? >> Right. >> Right. So when someone does a a legitimately good thing if they were to say cuz when when I've done, you know, things like that, ministry type things, it's like, hey, I'm doing this in the name of of Jesus Jesus Christ who saved me, who's my Lord and my savior. Can I talk to you about him? Can I introduce you to him? Like that kind of thing. If you were to ask the atheist or the the agnostic or someone that's doing the same thing that I'm doing in the name of who are you doing this? They would almost be confused by the question. They're like, my name? In the name of me? In the name of my manager who sent me here to do this against my will? Whatever the situation is, it's it it's always a derivative of who they are and who they are in themselves. So, Adam, if you want to have the last word before we wrap up cuz Days of Our Lives are almost out. >> I want to go back to the How did Jesus end the Sermon on the Mount? It was with the man that came to him and said, Lord, Lord, and what was his response? I never knew you. >> Yeah. >> So, yes, you can go to Sunday school. You can do good things. Can you do good things? Yes, but are those good things going to earn you anything in the kingdom of heaven? No, absolutely not. >> That's it. Well, hey guys, I appreciate the discussion. We're going to come back next week and we're going to get into chapter 8 verse 9, chapter 8 verse 9. But before we let's go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost. Undaunted.Life our mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that will build spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Don't forget about the Logos or Logos Bible study software, the Logos Undaunted.Life study bundle as well. It's amazing. Check out the links in the show notes for that and also check out our links where you can get your own Forging Table starter set through a great publisher, Crossway. And guys, we are a donation-based ministry. So, if you're wondering how we can pull off stuff like the Forging Table and everything else we do with Undaunted.Life cuz we have guys like you that have hopped on board to support us in our mission to equip men around the globe to push back darkness. Please consider doing that. undaunted.life/donate undaunted.life/donate Thank you everyone for listening to this episode. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five-star review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@undaunted.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming. www.undaunted.life. The music on this podcast is the song Conqueror by the Christian metal band Void awaken. Be sure to stream their music on Spotify, Apple Music, and wherever else you get your music. I'm your host Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience, keep seeking the lion of Judah. >> For you are the king.