Hey guys, real quick. So, I've talked to men literally all across the globe about where they're missing the mark and how they want to improve. They normally talk about how they wish they were in better shape, they wish they had a better relationship with their loved ones, they wish they had more success and influence at work and some other stuff like that. But, here are some of the most common and biggest things that I hear. I wish I knew more about the Bible. I wish I could lead my family spiritually. I wish I could recall more scripture. I wish Bible study wasn't such a struggle. Well, guys, I've got news for you. You don't have to keep wishing. It's time for you to start doing. It's time for you to stop wasting your time and money on stuff that has no eternal value whatsoever. I keep hearing you talk about how you want to be more biblically literate and spiritually resilient, and now is your chance to prove that you mean it. That's why I want you to take advantage of our partnership with the most powerful Bible software on planet Earth, Logos. So, Logos approached me about putting something together for the Undaunted Lifers out there, and we collaborated to create something I'm super pumped about, the Undaunted Life Study Bundle. So, here's the skinny on the bundle. There are over 200 individual resources, and they include titles from authors like Voddie Bauckham, Charles Spurgeon, R.C. Sproul, John MacArthur, Matt Chandler, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, William Lane Craig, Paul Washer, John Stott, Doug Wilson, Paul David Tripp, J.I. Packer, and a whole bunch more. And there are so many helpful resources in there. There's Bibles, commentaries, Old and New Testament study guides, devotionals, systematic theologies, courses, dictionaries histories encyclopedias non-fiction books, and more, and more, and more. And here's the most insane part about this deal. If you were to buy each individual resource by yourself inside of Logos, it would cost you over $3,000. $3,000. But, if you get the Undaunted Life Study Bundle, you'll get all 200-plus resources for just $349.99. Guys, that's $3,000 worth of stuff for 350 bucks. Guys, that's almost 90% off. And you know that you waste more than that on the hobbies that you have right now all the time, and these won't help you with your discipleship and sanctification journeys, right? It's time to get real and take control of your Bible study and spiritual development. Click the link in the show notes for this episode. If you want the link, it's logos.com /undontedlife. That's www.logos.com/undontedlife or the link in the show notes. It's super easy to sign up. Again, go to the show notes and click the link or go to logos.com/undontedlife. Sign up for Logos and get the Undaunted Life Study Bundle right now. This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. Welcome back to the forging table. The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. At the forging table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience by digging into God's word and welcome all of you to come along on that journey with us. That's Dagan, that's Ryan, that's Howard. Uh so, we had an awesome thing because Dagan turned this over perfectly. But what in the world did the world just have to witness between the two of you? >> I tried to do a Superman >> You tried to do a Superman knuckles and then what happened? >> Howard was like Howard's like went halfway in and then like I was like, "Bro, you can't leave me hanging." >> That was a reenactment >> I mean, I already got long You just got to have longer arms, like I do. >> That was a reenactment of the first time white people ever fist bump. >> [laughter] >> That's what that was. >> They're like almost like >> And you do it like this. >> Do I grab them? >> You grab them. >> Oh, the shape we It's a double. It's a double fish shake. >> Hey guys, I We to do it this way. >> Hey, why are we making fun of our own country here? Okay, come >> Well, they deserve to be made fun of. >> Yeah, probably at some point. Uh but we're Guys, we're going to get right right into this. Um man, I don't know what it is like for you guys, like all kidding aside, how long have we been in Romans? >> Wow. >> I mean, I'm trying to remember when we started. I'll I'll look it up. >> It's been a year. >> the conversations leading up to doing this thing. >> Right, we're all on the back porch. Well, you weren't there, but but we For the rest of us, the whole crew was on the back porch, and I was pitching the idea of doing Romans. And I was like, "Guys, for a couple of years now, we've done one chapter at a time, you know, sometimes two or three chapters at a time, depending upon where we were in Genesis or whatever. But, I mean, just crawling through Romans, I feel like just the text has super come alive for me. I don't know what it's like been been like for you guys. >> It's been good to park on this, though. Like I don't think I've studied a you [clears throat] know, book this slow ever before. And I study with a group of guys on a Friday morning, and it's so funny they laugh because I'm like, "Hey, let's slow down a little bit." And they're like, "Oh, wow, like we're ta- You're you're taking forever." But I'm like, "Man, it's amazing how much more color and context comes out to it when you really park on it and flush it out like this." So, >> I feel like it's just one of those books you have to do it on. It's like Chandler always said, it's the Mount Everest of of of books. But like, we always had the model since we started this where it's like one chapter, one hour. But like, doing it this way has made me really like think about like, man, there's so many awesome things we probably missed out on just like keeping ourselves at one chapter, one hour. So, I'm glad we didn't do it with this. >> Yeah, so blame the process, blame me. I mean, I I I just look back on even all the mistakes cuz I remember from the beginning, those early episodes of the Forging Table, which I'm so thankful that we were able to start that and get that going and what it's modeled for men all over the globe. But I remember being like super strict, like, "Hey, no inside jokes, like no joking around, let's just stick to the text and all that. In the moment, I kind of let go of that, like the content got so much better and, you know, every not everybody enjoys the banter back and forth and the games and all the different things, but I get so many comments, especially from Mr. Thompson, my dad. He loves the banter back and forth at the beginning of the episodes. And also, it shows because that dustup we had a year or two ago when we were in Matthew where, you know, you and >> Oh, me and Adam at the table. >> And and it all worked out fine, everybody's fine, everybody's here, we understand each other, but I remember Joby saying, "That's my favorite Forging Table episode ever." At that point, we're working through Matthew, we had already gone through we hadn't gone through Genesis yet, but we did Nehemiah, we did a couple of Pauline [clears throat] letters, we bounced around some Proverbs and some Psalms, and he goes, "It showed you guys honestly were arguing your opinions and your positions, but that you truly loved each other. Like neither one of you was trying to crush the other one in the debate." And, you know, people have we've we've offended each other at this table and we've, you know, said some things and like, "Look, I mean, I had to do a mea culpa a couple months back because of the the wig idea that I got from Ryan I took I took way too far and it got it was funny and then I took a an exit and I just hit the ramp going at 150 [laughter] miles an hour into non-funnyville and I just kept my foot on the gas. >> I I did [clears throat] it and I wasn't expecting to wear it for like the whole time and I even say he's like, "Dude, I bought these so you wear them the whole time." And I was like, "All right, I'll do it." And my friend >> but >> I wish we would have brought it like we just never brought it up. It was like just me showing up with wigs and so >> That's what I thought would make it funnier. >> I never I never read the comments. Like I listen on Spotify. Spotify is [clears throat] the only place I like to listen. I never read the comments, but like for the wigs, like it was just awkward doing it, so I was like, "I want to see what people are saying." And like some people got joy out of it, but like what's funny is most people were upset with that I was wearing a pink shirt. They were like Like, what's with the wigs and the pink shirt? And I was like, it was just what I wore to church that Sunday. So, now I'm going to start wearing pink shirts. >> You should just to trigger people. If I wore a pink shirt, it'd be like I wasn't wearing anything cuz that's one of my three color options. Pink, red, and clear. Um but, I knew it was like literally not hitting the the striking the chord I wanted to strike when my dad called to check on Ryan. >> [laughter] >> He's like, "Hey, is Ryan doing okay?" And I'm like, "Crap, something happened to Ryan that I didn't know about?" >> It's like, "Yeah, you did." >> couple of weeks on the show, he's he's been wearing these wigs and it's just like he thought he was having like a breakdown like a like a midlife crisis that manifested not in, you know, hookers and and uh you know, Cadillacs and all that. It was like literally him manifesting as like trying out different hairstyles. >> Yeah, I was just like, "Hey, which what is me?" You know? Now, we actually like went and had some cigars with him and we were talking about it. He's like, "Man, he's like, "Don't let them let you do that stuff. Don't don't let them [laughter] stamp you know?" >> Yeah, you and my dad were loved ganging up on me. That's what I noticed whenever we broke bread and had some cigars. I don't know what that's called. >> then I get on this show and you all gang up on me. >> That's not true. You You invited >> bro, like >> Thank you. I do because I like to keep >> got a shirt that says "Welcome Matt" on it. >> And I love it. Like, I and it's true. Like, if you can dish it out, you have to be able to take it. >> Yeah. >> You know? And I can take it. Like, >> early You learned early from the perfume stuff or cologne and the >> No, let's call it perfume from now on. >> [laughter] >> Father's Day is coming up. I want to >> eau de toilette >> Hot Father's Day is coming up, but this is >> Father's >> Father's Day is always coming up. >> But, the next time I'm on, when we go over Romans 9, I will have a new scent. >> Now, do we have a cuz I I kind of know what the boys will be getting me for Father's Day. Like, so do we do we have an idea what the uh >> But, the scent is? No, cuz I told my wife cuz she's the one that has to smell me. I was like, "I don't a casual cologne to wear. And uh >> Casual you mean? >> Like a casual one where I Like if I'm coming to hang out with you guys >> Or like this? >> Yeah, like just casual stuff, like going to the store. >> So, why wouldn't that be something that you picked? >> Because I want something like that I wear around more that I'm around her more than I am you. >> Here's a better question. If you're coming to hang out with us or just go to the grocery store real quick, why do you need a scent for that? >> to [laughter] the grocery store real quick. >> Let me cologne up >> Wait, I've already told you the story many times. >> But we get new viewers every week, buddy. We I mean it's it's worth it. It's worth it. >> Seventh grade >> Give them the condensed >> Any story that starts with seventh grade is going to be a great story. >> Seventh grade home ec. There was this girl Tiffany who I liked. >> Are we using real names? >> I'm not going to give you her last name. >> We are now. >> Yeah. And I went up to her and I was like I was like, you know, finally got the cojones to go talk to her and I was like "Hey I'm Ryan." And she looked at me and she's like, "Are you the guy that crapped his pants in sixth grade?" >> [laughter] >> And I'm like >> yes? >> I was like, "No." I got like super offended. >> Does the next story start with in sixth grade? >> Sixth grade, there I was. >> Sixth grade, there I was on the merry-go-round. >> They're spinning me. >> Is this the alternative universe that we're in now? >> Yeah, here's an alternative No, I'm not good at those. >> Well, we can try it. >> But yeah, it's like, you know, I tooted >> And then it happened. >> That that never happened. I never I never pooed myself in like sixth grade, but I don't know. It just made me like wonder if I smelled bad, the fact that she said that. And so I always kind of had cologne. I just started wearing cologne like more then. And then I started getting really into cologne. >> And cuz it's like do people compliment you and say, "Man, you smell nice." And that's like reinforcing? >> many times about my cologne. >> Okay. >> Like at the bank or something like that. >> That'll do it. >> Yeah. >> So, was it a shart that that happened in that in that alternate universe? >> It never happened actually. I have sharted. I have >> have to get into a shart story. We can just stay in the pocket here and uh kind of the one thing we're But that still still doesn't quite answer my question. Okay, so Tiffany the jerk in seventh grade thought you pooped your pants and but you didn't it was just a rumor. And so you felt like you were a little steamy around other people, but here you are as an adult, grown adult, you know, 40 years old or whatever. And you're you got to run to Crest real quick, got to get pick up some groceries for dinner or whatever, but you're not scented up. Like that's the thing that I don't understand is why do we need >> Do you feel like So like >> a casual >> It's not like I spray every time I leave. Like I came over to like hang out with you guys. Like I've been wearing this shirt all day. I already sprayed in the morning. So and it's just like, oh, I'm not going to church or going out >> Deacon, have you heard about his ritual about how he applies? >> Oh my gosh. >> [clears throat] >> It's worth it. It's It's worth it. >> Well, hold on. Let me ask. So is it It is uh uh spray on the wrist and dab dab two dabs? >> Yep. I do two sprays. [clears throat] >> And then >> And then rub on my neck. >> Oh, no spray on the neck. >> But then I spray once here, once here. >> He's covered. >> And then whenever you do like a fancy dress up, are you also spraying cuz I've heard of guys that will spray their pocket square? Oh yeah. >> when they take out like guys that actually use their pocket pocket square by the way, they will pull it out or their hanky. And they'll you know, if they're drying their sweat off they want it to be, you know, putting a little bit on there. Is that a thing? >> No, I don't have a pocket square. I've never had I don't really wear suits cuz I have a fat neck so I don't like to wear ties. >> Well, you don't have to wear a tie. >> Yeah, you don't you don't you can just go open. >> I would not wear a tie. I gave my pocket square to a to a girl at a funeral one time and she like blew a casserole into it. And I And then she like went to hand it back to me. And it's like, you know what? That's yours. That's yours. Like don't like I do not want that back. >> Yeah, it was Did you spray with your cologne? What's the the John Varvatos or whatever? >> [laughter] >> Nosferatu? What are you What are you saying? >> that? >> Oh, I remember because I was John Varvatos. John Varvatos, yeah. And it's the Like we asked you why you wear cologne. You said because you like >> Cuz Cuz my wife got it for me. She said smell nice. And I said that I wear it because I like sex. >> [laughter] >> I'm sorry that I'm married. >> True. >> And my wife likes the way I smell. >> That's why I told my wife to pick out the cologne for me this year. That's why I told my wife to pick out the cologne >> I'm on board. >> Are you a cologne wearer, Howard? >> No. >> Okay. All right. So are you an everyday cologne wearer, Dagan? >> Situational. >> Okay. >> Situational. I'm everyday. >> Everyday? Even casual situations? >> Casual situations, I have a scent. And >> But you're you're you're like spraying cologne on your wrists, right? >> for nice stuff. >> Okay. >> What's the most expensive cologne you have? >> Uh >> Dran says I'd prefer not to tell you. >> Creed. Which one? >> Oud. >> Oud. >> That was going to be my guess. I should have said it. >> So what does oud cost? >> You know what? People can go and look that up. >> I'm going to look it up. >> It's like a good bottle of >> Just just >> How do you spell oud? >> O U D. >> Yeah, is that like secondary market bourbon prices? >> Just so you know, I've had this bottle for like three or four years. >> So a Bloomingdale's uh has a bottle of Creed oud. Sorry, it's pulling up. I'm trying to get the ounces here. >> 3.3 oz. >> Uh this is a 1.7. A 1.7 is $470. A 3.3 oz $630. Geez. >> And I got mine on a discount. I didn't pay 600 bucks. >> Now here's a question. If you had the 3.3 oz cuz I don't have any reference point for this. If you wore it everyday, how long would it take to go through that bottle? Cuz like I've got >> many dabs >> have whiskey collection I've got bottles that have been open for years that still have half in it or something. >> bought some Creed Everest back when 2023 and I've got a little bit left and I probably wear that more than the oud. And so it's been about about 3 years. Probably about 3 or 4 years. >> It's like a good bottle of scotch. >> All right. Well, y'all may not have enjoyed that but we did. It's always good to bring people up to speed and guess what? I don't really care about [clears throat] y'all's opinion cuz we're just here in the moment. Try to live it up. >> Just so we know. Here's what I got to >> Just so we know. >> Just so we point something out for Father's Day I'm not getting Creed. >> All right. >> I specifically >> We'll get some casual like Cree Curve. >> John Varvatos. >> [laughter] >> Okay. Uh some Stetson Musk. >> Available at a Macy's near you. Just know that the scent you have here will not compare to the scent that you will have when you're in glory. >> Amen. >> Speaking of glory. >> Yeah. >> Let's transition over to Romans. Um we're going to start we're we've been in Romans 8. That's kind of where I was going is like we man we've been in Romans 8 for if you're watch if you've been watching this we've been here for weeks and weeks going on months and I mean we're not halfway through Romans yet. Right? And we've just been in Romans and I mean the entire top shelf behind me is all Romans commentaries and different things like that and so but we're going to get into our discussion coming off of last week. You know, we we talked about salvation. We were getting into kind of like moments where the spirit was like groaning and you know, interceding on our behalf. Like why did Jesus in the flesh have to leave so that we could have the spirit. We went through all that. But we're going to start in verse 20 we'll do 26 and 27. So Howard, go and hit that. Romans 8:26 and 27 reading from the ESV. >> 26 and 27. Likewise, the spirit helps us in our weakness for we do not know what to pray for as we ought to, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches the hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. >> So, one thing that is a Nailed it. Nailed it. Nice job. Nice shot. Uh for those just listening, uh killed a what looks to be a fly. >> That's an ant. That's an ant. >> All right, not as impressive, but uh that's [laughter] okay. We can leave it in there as like for Hey, how about you circle it and put a date on it, right? So, you'll always know that here you were at the forging table. >> When I kill an ant, he is >> He's really thinking about it. You You named it already. Okay. >> Honey, I Shrunk the Kids. Anty. >> [laughter] >> Oh, he's still moving. He's not dead. >> Bro, you can't kill an ant. >> Man, it's like I think I literally killed it with Kyle's arm. >> [laughter] >> I don't think it's possible. There's not enough power in this arm. I need the Spirit to help you in your weakness. >> I smashed its back. >> I smashed its back, so it's like up here. >> Please put this thing out of its misery. Like that, okay, right? PETA is going to be sending me a uh Now, go ahead and eat it. It's protein. >> Oh my [laughter] gosh. >> With the word of God, sword of the Spirit. Just Hey, you slain in the Spirit. That's what just happened to that that ant. >> Boom, let's get into it. >> All [clears throat] right, so [laughter] >> It's like falling into the word, man. >> 26 and 27. All right, one thing that I wanted to point out just to kick off. So, likewise, the Spirit helps us present tense. But the Spirit himself intercedes for us present tense. That's why I think it's always good to remind myself, to remind you guys, remind everyone listening your salvation again is past, present, and future. The past element is your justification whenever you receive the Holy Spirit, whenever you became a believer. In future tense, we have our glorification, but then we have the present tense, which is for most of us going to be the longest time period. I guess that would technically be for all of us. Um but, you know, your sanctification journey is happening at all times, but as a believer, the spirit is helping us. The spirit is interceding for us. So, I want to kind of start out there [clears throat] cuz we are talking about the groanings. I will say I kind of got a little hung up on the intercedes part. Like, what exactly does that mean? But, let's just kick off the discussion from there. >> With the Okay, go ahead. Well, >> [clears throat] >> so what I got out in the first part of 26 where it says, "The Spirit also helps our weaknesses." So, what I like there is like Paul is assuming weakness, right? He's basically saying like we don't know how to pray like we should. And I You know, like when you see a golfer, I I I play golf and the US Open's going on at some point. I don't know if I can say when. >> We are in the past >> It doesn't matter. >> So, so say you watch a golf tournament, you watch a professional golfer like shank one. As just like a non-professional, it makes me feel so good. >> I feel justified. >> They do, too. >> Right. So, when I hear Paul like acknowledge weakness, like it makes me feel like I can connect with Paul in that moment, right? So, like even the apostles, they experience confusion and sorrow and like a prayer insecurity, right? Like they He's acknowledging weakness. He doesn't know how to pray. So, what what I think the comfort here is like when believers >> [clears throat] >> a lot of people get intimidated by prayer. >> Mhm. >> I think they feel like there's a right way to do it rather than just like getting started. And just There's a lot of times where I'm not either A in the mood to pray >> [clears throat] >> or B I don't really have anything specific to pray about. But, when you start praying, it's amazing like all I got to do is start. And then I I'll pray People will come up, work things will come up, um you know, requests will come up and and there's plenty to pray about, right? But, a lot of people have some insecurity like that you got to follow some guideline. And and in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said, right, when you pray this this pray this way. So, we have kind of a framework at least to get started. But, what I feel here, it's like when you talk about him interceding for us, what I feel like is like when we don't even have the words to express how we feel or what we need, that the spirit is going deeper into the groanings that do not have words and is basically taking those to the to the throne of the Father and translating them for us, right? >> I'm just going to I'm going to keep shouting this out because this this really flows off of what you just said. The Study Assistant, which is the AI chat function inside of Logos, is so incredible. Guys, if you don't have a Logos membership, like even if you don't do the Undaunted Life Study Bundle, like I don't care, but just get this because I typed in Romans 8:26, "What does it mean that the spirit intercedes for us?" The spirit's intercession addresses a fundamental human limitation. We lack the clarity to pray as we should. So, the spirit steps into the gap and prayer is expressed through groanings too deep for words. This isn't mystical or beyond God's comprehension. God searches the hearts and understands the spirit's mind, recognizing that this intercession aligns with his will. Now, this next part, this is this is amazing. [clears throat] The Greek word for intercession here carries a vivid image. And so, I'll throw myself under the bus and try to pronounce this word. The term huperentugchano, okay? Uh depicts This is great. Someone discovering another trapped in difficulty and swiftly executing a rescue operation. Suggesting the spirit's work isn't passive observation, but active intervention. When you're at a loss for words or trapped in confusion, the spirit supernaturally enters your situation and initiates a rescue plan. Dude, like I mean, that goes back to The plan from from beginning was God to send Jesus down here on a rescue mission for, you know, his his elect, for the bride of Christ and all that kind type of thing. But that what this is saying is like the spirit acknowledges you're you're in a bear trap. >> Mhm. >> And it's not it's not going up to you and be like, "Hey, man, that that looks terrible. If you need anything, let me know." Or, you know, "Hey, gosh, that that seems like a really tough spot. Is there Is there You have any ideas on how we can get out of here?" No, no, no. It's actively like pursuing and and interceding on your behalf to get you out of that trap. That's awesome. >> I want to read this passage because uh the commentary I was reading in it ties in I think beautifully with what you just said, Kyle. It's It's It's 1 Corinthians 2 10 through 14. It says, "These things God has revealed to us through the spirit. For the spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows the person's thought thoughts except the spirit of that person which is in him? So also, no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the spirit who is from God that we might understand the things freely given to us by God. And we impart this and he Excuse me. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom, but taught by the spirit. >> Mhm. >> Interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. I mean, just the richness of that like >> Yeah. >> the the depth of the spirit of God knows God, right? And that same spirit is in us. And I think that's just the beauty of like I've said in previous weeks of like, do we truly comprehend the depths of the spirit of God? Like >> It makes It makes me wonder and I think this would be a great ask the an ask a pastor type question. >> Ooh, let me get up my notes. I'll put it right in there. >> [laughter] >> Even though you're not a monthly donor and those are the rules you have to be No, no, no. You have to be a monthly donor or you have to be a Forging Table or you got to be me. Hang on, let me bring it up. >> Hey, I'm a monthly donor. You just don't have my name. I'm just joking. I'm not. >> Oh, man, you got me all you got me all hang on. Uh >> He's like, you are? >> Well, I got to find my uh whoa whoa whoa. All right, here we are. So, got to get past all of my notes and all my scenarios that I put them in to try and make him uncomfortable. I am ready. Ryan Horn, fire away. >> So, if the if the Holy Spirit is groaning and interceding for us, does that mean like God is praying that our eyes are open to his will when our eyes aren't open to it? >> I would yes. >> Because it's like, hey, I'm trying to set him on this path and I want him to see this path that I have before him, but his eyes are just not there. But then with the Spirit groans within us to like I don't know, to open our eyes to the beauty of what that path is. I don't know. I don't even know if that's a real question. But that's just what that's what that makes me think is just like I don't even know what's best for me. >> Mhm. >> But God does and God has me on a trajectory and yes, I have free will to either listen to the Holy Spirit or listen to the flesh. Is that is when I feel that conviction or I feel that that move in the Spirit, is that the Spirit groaning for me because I don't know what I need? >> I would I would agree 100%. I mean, that's that's what he's doing. He's trying to change your heart. He's trying to >> [clears throat] >> soften you, harden you in certain ways, I think, to to push you in in that direction. And I again, it's that sanctification process. And it's not only it's that suffering process. We're going to get into it, right? That suffering sanctifies us, right? And is he using those challenges, those hard times? I mean, I know a lot of the guys here at the table have been through things in the last, you know, 3 to 5 years that have shaped them, right? We all have those experiences that shape us. But, it's that spirit leading us, whether whether it's a a good feeling, a bad feeling, or driving you to the word at that time when you're when you're deep down. >> What's up? >> You go ahead. I got I got to find this to make my point. Go ahead. >> Well, I was just like I was going to tell a story. It kind of leads to 8:28. So, I don't know if we're That's too early. Okay. >> [laughter] >> It's kind of how I feel is um How many times do we have like our own plans and like think that our way is better? What's the For Springs song? Your way is better. >> You know? You want to sing it? >> No. [laughter] >> Okay. >> I'm not a I'm not good at For Springs. Um but, I write my own songs with the guitar. Deep cut right there. >> I think everyone missed it. >> You remember you always say that to me. I'm always writing songs with my guitar. >> Well, no. Are you thinking that thing you do? >> Yeah. >> No, he's like, "Oh, where was I? Writing songs with my guitar." Damn Geachin Shrimp Shack Shooters. Everyone's confused. >> Just get us back on track. But, um but no, it's like uh Like there was a time in in my walk I like I would say I was like the country music theology Christian and um was starting getting into the Bible more, but then an opportunity popped up where I was like I could chase prestige. I could chase like a huge territory. I could chase a name. And uh I did everything I could to set myself up for that. And like move my family out to Dallas, uh Texas. And um at the time I'm like, "Man, I got this opportunity in front of me. I'm going to be able to create something big. I'm going to be able to make all this money, you know?" And that first year within Dallas, like everything was falling apart. I had some family issues back in Oklahoma. And then come to to the fact that my wife and I's marriage is falling apart. Like divorce is being talked about. I don't even know my kids. And um And I'm like, Dallas was supposed to fix all this. I'm doing this to fix all this. And it's nothing's nothing's being done. But the will that I had for my family was I'm going to be able to make more money. I'm going to be able to have like my name's going to be up in lights. You know, and um that whole time in Dallas, God is shaping me and putting me around men who are just delivering the word to me. Like, I finally figure out what the gospel truly I my eyes are open to it. I didn't say I figured it out. My eyes are open to the beauty of the gospel and everything that I had planned was not the plan. Like, the groanings that I had were not the groanings of the Holy Spirit or what God's plan were. The groanings that I had was like, God, I just moved my wife out here to be closer to her family. Why she all mad at me? You know, like, oh, now I'm home more. I'm not traveling as much to Dallas cuz we live here. Why is she upset? Why Why do my kids annoy me? You know, like, oh, I moved out here. This is bigger territory. Why not Why am I not making as much money that I thought I could make? And And it was a lot harder and everything. But then I go back and I'm We moved back here and I look at what God did. And that's where like Romans 8:28 comes in. >> Yeah. >> It's not my will. Like, I can chase the name. I can chase the lights. I can chase the prestige. You know, but who am I if I'm not the leader of my household, spiritually leading my wife, spiritually leading my kids? You know, like, I Our whole plan was she's going to go back to work when they're in school. I'm going to get the house paid off, retire early, and get play golf. You know, like, that's that's that's That was my plan. And then she throws me for a loop. I want to home school. Well, you know what? I think you know, I think that's a good idea. So, we change our plan for that. And so, it's just like my plan is not his plan. His plan is better. You know, and sometimes that spirit is groaning to me to get on the right path. >> Well, what And go ahead. And so, you reference Romans 8:28. We haven't read it yet. So, bring it up. We know that all things work together for good for those who love God. And the important thing here is there's not a period there. And I feel like that that a lot of people just cut it off in there. So, I'm going to repeat it and say the end of it. We know that all things work together for good for those who love God to those who are called according to his purpose. So, you know, the thing that this is a really like misinterpreted or misapplied verse, right? Works everything out for your good. Well, the big the reason why is because it's not to your definition of good. >> [laughter] >> If it were if everything work if if everything if God could work everything out for Dagan's good, then I would be prosperous, healthy, I would uh you know, I would be able to eat McDonald's and look like Kyle's right arm, you know what I mean? Like I like I he could work everything out for my good, but it's like it's not through the lens of my good. It's like our definition our is comfortable, prosperous healthy safe improved fun easy. >> Like look at my definition of good. Like it was prestige. It was money. It was It was nothing about being It was Would that serve his purpose? >> So, God goes on or or Paul goes on and tells you what God's definition of good is in verse 29. >> Go ahead Go ahead and read 29 and 30 and we'll just we'll open up the whole thing. Go for it. >> Okay, sorry. >> And which [clears throat] version are you reading from? >> I'm in ESV. >> All right. >> Uh for those whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined, he also called. And those whom he called, he also justified. And those whom he justified, he also glorified. So, going back to like that his definition of for your good is does it make you more like Jesus? Right? That's That's the good it talks about in 29. Um Uh who is he is uh sorry um that he might be Uh he's also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son. So, God's definition of good is anything su- uh success joy celebration suffering hardship, loss, struggle, like all of those things that point us and make us more like Jesus. That is the good. We It's not all rainbows and unicorns. >> think about the good. And let's think about in terms of timing. Okay, so this goes back to what you you two were just just talking about. Okay, so everyone's got a story. So, usually how it's brought up is like, man, you remember rereading, you know, one of those classic novels or you you rewatch a movie and oh my gosh, you didn't notice that the first two times or first 100 times you watched it and then you notice something different. Right? Like every time I watch Gladiator, I get a little bit something like different from it because all the other stuff is already understood. So, I thought about recently I was uh so I was reading 1 Samuel 16 and so we've got uh King Saul, you know, he's he's in he's in a inner turmoil and conflict. And so, I'll read uh 1 Samuel 16:14. Now, the Lord Now, the spirit of the Lord departed from Saul and a harmful spirit from the Lord tormented him. Well, yeah, so if you watch House of David, if you if you've read through that before, it's like, oh yeah, you know, that was the start of his downfall there. It's like, oh, he's being tormented tor- tormented by the spirit. And then it's like, time out. Read it again. Now, the spirit of the Lord departed from Saul and a harmful spirit from the Lord tormented him. Wait what? From the Lord? That's been in there the whole time. Yeah. Why didn't I read it? The scales fell from my eyes when the spirit found it appropriate, right? >> Yeah. >> And so and [clears throat] I don't know what my plan is cuz again we're we're in the past {slash} the future right now. I don't know exactly how that works, but I'm currently working on a a big project that could be an Undaunted episode, a Sunday school lesson, and you know, a speech that I can give, but also a Daily Blade set of episodes. Because then I was like, wait a minute. I was thinking about the sovereignty of God in that this is a spirit of the Lord that is now tormenting Saul. We just assume it's a demonic spirit. Well, okay, if it is a demonic spirit, how is it operating? With the permission of God. And then I thought about This was in John. Do you have John up? >> I was going to Job. >> Okay, well, yeah, I'll I'll stop there and then we'll go to I'll go Do you have that >> Yeah, I got Job pulled up. >> Yeah, pull up that or read that part that you were going to right there. >> Um >> [sighs and gasps] >> Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. The Lord said to Satan, "From where have you come?" Satan answered, and the Lord Satan answered the Lord and said, "From going to and fro on the earth and from walking up and down on it." And the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is none like him on earth, a blameless, upright man who fears God and turns away from evil." And Satan answered the Lord and said, "Does Job fear God for no reason? Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands and possessions and have increased his land. But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face." And the Lord said to Satan, "Behold, all that has all that he has in his in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand." So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord. >> And so, Satan is operating not on his own free will, but under the sovereignty of God to make some sort of a point in Job is the oldest of all the the books in the Bible. And then it caused me to look at what we see in the upper room as recorded in John 13. So, I'll do verse 21 first. [snorts] After saying these things, Jesus was troubled in his spirit and testified, "Truly, truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me." Now, verses 26 and 27. So, when he had dipped the morsel, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. Then after he had taken the morsel, Satan entered into him. Jesus said to him, "What you are going to do, do quickly." How many times have we read that? We saw it depicted in The Chosen, saw it depicted in The Passion of the Christ, all those different things. But, let's go back to verse 27. Then after he had taken the morsel, Judas, Satan entered into Judas. Jesus said to him, "What you are going to do, do it quickly." I don't think Jesus was talking to Judas. He was talking to Satan. Satan could not do what he set out to do, which we had already established. He thought was the final steps of his master plan, right? When Satan was or when Jesus was crucified and laid into the tomb, Satan and his demons were celebrating for 3 days cuz they had won. They they had they had extinguished the the lion of the tribe of Judah, right? They had extinguished him. And then after the resurrection, obviously, it's like the rest of the picture filled in. It's like, "Okay, well, this is all lost and it's lost forever, but I need to take down as many souls as I can in the process." And so, when we look at it this way, when we're studying the Bible, the spirit is helping us understand what it says, right? That's a biblical mandate that we see in scripture. And so, when you continue to study, you don't study and go, "All right, cool. Romans 8, got it. Good to go." No, no, no. You keep going back to the text and you're like, "Wait, this has been here the whole time." That 1 Samuel passage, just passages is John, And then it changes your level of understanding. And then you think about it. It's the same thing as I'm just, you know, kind of spitballing out loud. When my grandmother was dying of cancer, I was very young. And so, how do you think my mom and dad explained cancer to me? I was like 6 years old. So, you can't really understand it fully. But if I was 26 years old and my grandmother was dying of cancer, don't you think the the content and the detail of the conversation would be significantly different? >> No, 100% >> And so, I think that that goes into all of this is like the spirit is interceding actively on our behalf and giving us [clears throat] the information we need when it's appropriate for us to have it. >> Yeah. >> Right. And I think that's incredibly important. >> And that's what I saw. Like when I read 8:28 and 29, it's like man, I thought my my will and like what I thought was good was going to be what was going to make my family good. And it was tearing it all apart. >> Which I I think everybody I think not everybody. I mean, there's people who don't give a crap. But I think for the most part, like we try to make plans that prosper and >> and but like go in the right direction. >> But what is like but what is prosper? You know what I'm saying? Like because where I grew up I grew up with prosperity. It was Joel Osteen type of prosperity. It was like I'm going to believe in in big numbers. I'm going to believe in big names. I'm going to believe in this and I'm going to I want to I want to be this person. I want to be I want to be known. You know? And then it's like it's like it's like you almost look at yourself when you say, "I want to be known." It's almost like Satan. And the fact that >> Yeah, it's a pride thing. I want to >> Satan wanted to leave wanted to leave heaven and go up against God. Why? Because he was tired of being looked through and not looked at. And it was like it was a very convicting thing where I was just like man, it's it's not about me and that's when the gospel like just clicked. It was just like self-sacrifice. I was like, man, I've been a horrible husband. I've been a horrible father. Um like I'm thinking and that I'm doing all these good things, but all these good things are not done one in God's name, they're done out of my selfishness. And it was just like how many times was he throwing roadblocks in front of me and I was just using my own will to get out of way of out of the way of those those roadblocks and he was setting it up for me the whole entire time. >> One and Brian, this is important cuz again verse 28 and we know that for those who love God all things work together for good for those who are called according to his purpose. Bad things are bad. >> Mhm. >> Right? >> Yeah. >> Like when you see when you see like the things that you were doing as a head of a household as poorly as you were doing that job when a little kid uh dies of cancer, um you know, I've got a really good friend that's uh suffering with a a terminal disease right now and he sent me a just a crushing text the other day about some experimental um drugs and trials he's going to be a part of also that he can try to walk his daughters down the aisle >> Mhm. >> and make it [clears throat] long enough to where he can do that. And it's just like bad things are bad. >> Yeah. >> Like bad things are bad. But the results of those bad things can be good. >> Mhm. >> Right? Look at our buddy Zach Foster who died >> Yeah. >> basically in the church parking lot in front of his wife. >> Yep. >> Right? A guy that was as pagan as it could be until a few years before he passed. >> And God just took him home. >> And the sanctuary was full at his funeral. >> Yeah. >> The gospel was preached repeatedly and clearly and his gospel legacy is already set in stone, right? And his daughter, very young, less than a 1 years old, >> Yeah. >> she will someday learn about the gospel legacy of her father. Bad things are bad. But that's not a period on the end of that statement, right? It's a comma. It's like, but the results certainly can be good. We can Go ahead, Howard. >> I was just going to say, I mean, I was listening to a or reading MacArthur's commentary talking about this and when he says all things, he goes through, you know, whether it's suffering, whether it's sin, and he uses that death piece. And he said, "Death can be used for good." And he used the example of abortion, right? He uses that death of abortion to create hate, right? We talked about it in Sunday school. If if there wasn't that, there would not be a drive for us to want to change that, right? And he uses that as a motivation for us to when we see sin, when we see death, and we see those things wrong, that drives us to want to make a change and change people's hearts, right? It's one thing like, "Hey, we want people to be loved. We want people to be comfortable." But like, when we see them in in pain and suffering, making wrong choices, you know, do we does it drive us to have a heart to want to change people's lives? And so he uses those things for his good, right? Like um Piper I it was just a short commentary or a short uh snippet that uh Piper had, but he said, "Do you have enough love or enough joy because of the Lord to want to change somebody's life, to share that joy with them? Or are you just, 'Hey, I want you to have a great, comfortable life. I want you to be the most effective person you can be.' Or do I want to change their life?" And I've got that much joy that pours out of me that I want to go change someone's life because of what he's done for me and I want him to do that for you. >> Kind of goes back to what like Joseph said in Genesis that, you know, what you meant for evil, God meant for good. And it's just like, what's meant for evil, sin, we live in a sinful evil world where Satan is on the prowl. But whatever Satan does, God can turn for good. >> Yeah, I I I'm guilty of this, but I think a lot of Christians are of we can sometimes have like a what have you done for me lately type of relationship with God, right? When things are good, we feel like God loves us. And when we're suffering, we feel like God's far from like that like that we're bad people and that God is displeased with us, right? Like that that that our circumstances good or bad are an indication of how much he loves us. Yeah. Right? And it's like you know, we all have stories. I've I mean, I've I've got some one I'm not going to share, but we've all got stories about people who have gone through things. I I I somebody that I love very much has gone through some really hard times the last year and uh started in February and by May was asking the question, is it crazy that I would be glad >> Mhm. >> that I'm going through this? Like in 3 months, they went from like I don't know like I don't even know if I'm going to live to see the end of the year to is it crazy that I would that I would find joy in this? And the answer is no. Because the the amount of people that pray for you during suffering and struggle, the amount of like when the church body comes together to rally around somebody who's hurting, >> Mhm. >> God, that is like so encouraging to your soul, right? That you're not that that that that's that's really what we look like at our most beautiful as we can here on Earth is being together and it's like your circumstances, no matter how good or how bad are not an indication of how much God loves you. Um and and we'll you know, the the next series, I guess we'll finish out Romans is we're We're to talk about how much God loves us, which is awesome and awesome way to end, but like that I I I have to remember that and me reading this in in 8:28 and 29 is just a recalibration for myself. Like, you know, don't don't beat yourself up and don't feel too good about yourself. >> Mark uh Hitchcock, our pastor, he talks I mean, we all go to faith, but one of the things he always uses is this analogy and I love the the the imagery of it, but uh you know, you take a tapestry. You see the the beautiful front of a tapestry, but when you turn that tapestry over, it looks like a mess, right? And you And he just talks about how how many of the the people in scripture, you know, their their lives have been a mess, right? But the beauty that he knits together in all of us, right? And when he when when he's the one when he's the master knitting it together and you pull it up and you turn it over, it's a beautiful thing. But it's a mess behind the scenes. >> I love that. >> We're just afraid to get messy sometimes. >> Yeah, that's the name of our Sunday school group is Mosaic. It's like a bunch of broken people coming together to make this beautiful mosaic. >> One of the things that popped out for me was on 29 and for those for uh for those whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son. And like you guys know where I where I sit on on predestination and everything. >> No, tell us. >> [laughter] >> I found so much solace when I read that even before I kind of believed in my thoughts on predestination or or the how I came to my biblical understanding of predestination, that he chose me from the beginning. >> Mhm. >> Like, I didn't choose him, he chose me. And I find like I find that like I find so much honor in that and the fact that like I, this broken person, he decided from the beginning he was going to weave and conform me into the image of his son. >> Mhm. >> And just like watching like like when I have those times where I I feel sanctified or I feel conviction, it's [snorts] like I'm not scared of that conviction. It's like all right, Lord, I hear [clears throat] you. I need to be more conformed to your son and you're you're working that through me. And it's not for my accord, it's from his accord. And the fact that he opens up my eyes to it is just like a beauty I'll never understand. >> Just to parallel on to that, it's just like I this this passage is is so rich, but you know, this idea of being conformed, it parallels to me we talk a lot about the imago Dei, right? We are made in his image, right? And this idea that with sin it's broken that down. >> Yep. >> And we're trying to be conformed back into that image, but because sin is so far, right? And it says and I the passage I think you were talking about uh is Ephesians 1:4-5. It says even as he chose us before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before him in love. In love. Like I don't sometimes we think it's just the process, but it's it's it's in his love for us. He predestined for us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ according to the purpose of whose will? >> His. >> His will. >> Yeah, and I think I mean really 29 and 30 you have, you know, the foreknowledge of God in verse 29, you have predestination in the first part of verse 30, you have the calling in the second part of verse 30, and then in the third part of verse 30 you have glorification and justification. That just runs the gamut, right? And in the whole of just just uh two verses there. And you know, really 26 through 30 should be incredibly comforting to the believer. >> Yeah. >> Mhm. >> And to the non-believer that reads that section, I assume it'd be pretty flummoxing. Like, well, how? Like, what what do you mean? Like, how in the world could bad be good? And that's what you see with these man on the street things when they you know, they have these atheists going after these preachers or these Christian apologists that are doing Q&A's or you know, when Charlie Kirk was doing his thing on college campuses and all that you'd have these these unbelievers these people people that are just steeped in what is described in Romans 1, right? And then they just they don't have a plausibility structure to steal a Matt Chandlerism, but they don't have a plausibility structure for how bad could be good because we're thinking too literally and too categorically. >> Yeah. >> It's like well well no no no, bad is bad, good is good, right? And even the people asking that they have a shifting morality, right? They have a subjective morality that they've dedicated their whole lives to, right? What's right for you may not be right for me and so on and so forth. And so with within that framework, it's challenging the base assumptions that bad can't be good. Like and like that bad can't be used for good, but it just challenge it right right from there. And I do uh before we wrap, check the time. Yeah, I want to go ahead and get into 31 and 32. And then you know, we we may not cover all 31 and 32. We may have to come back to it next week. Uh but they can go ahead and read 31 and 32 as we get into as the ESV calls it God's everlasting love. >> Okay, I'm glad you asked me to do this cuz 8:32 is like one of my faves. >> All right, well we'll we'll at least touch on it before we wrap. >> So verse 31, ESV. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own son, but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? >> Fire away. >> Okay, so when I when I was talking earlier about like this the situational like amount of like like our circumstances are are a direct reflection of how much God loves us, right? At any given point. Like verse 32 is like there is one measure for God's love for you. And it's Jesus on a cross. Period. For the rest of your life, all of eternity, there is that is the one thing that you can measure the amount of love that he has for you. Is he who did not spare his own son, but gave him up for us all. Right? Like, that's the measure of God's love. And then, the second part of that, I feel like like I I uh we're all married, right? We all went through the process of buying a ring and um uh we I got engaged, actually got engaged at the OU football stadium, like right after they did the the the new east side, and no one was there. So, all the women are like cringing that I did it at a football game. Nobody was there. We were there in the We were in the stadium stadium by ourselves, and I and you know, I go through the whole the evening, and I get my wife this ring that was like precious, the most expensive thing I ever bought. And um and then we're at dinner. Her her parents are there, my her family and my family were all at dinner at Charleston's in Norman after the fact. And she she like grabs my arm and asks, she's like, "Can I have the little box that it came in?" And I'm like, "Yeah, you can have the box. Like, >> [laughter] >> I can get you a thousand boxes for what that ring cost. You know what I mean?" It's like, if I'm going to do the big thing, I'm going to do the little thing. >> Yeah. >> And that's what like like we can't live in this in this relationship with God as though the things that we're asking him mean anything compared to what he's already done for you. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right? Like like God, can you like can you give me like can can you help my family situation? Can you Can you help me understand your word? God, like I'm I'm moved to a new town, like I need fellowship. Can you lead me to a church, and I need friends. It's like of course. >> Yeah. >> I'll get you a I'll get you a thousand boxes for your ring, Megan. You know what I mean? And And that like this is a massive calibration for me when I need perspective on how much God loves me. >> I think one thing that I looked at in this in this verse is, you know, in 31 it says, "If God is for us, who can be against us?" And I was like I thought about that and I was like, "If God is for us, who cares who's against us?" You know, like sometimes we forget about the truth of God. You know, to >> Like the victory we're already >> victory we're already living in. It's like that's what Paul is talking about this whole time is like us as believers we're living in victory and it doesn't matter what the naysayers may say or the people who say that there is no God or the people who says this or that like we already live in victory. So, if God is for us, who cares who's against us because we know the truth and we know the truth. >> Did you just edit Paul's letter? Is that what you just did just did a little edit on it? Did you think you think you're better than Paul? >> No, no, no. >> Who are you? All right. >> Well said that. Yeah, I mean I just Eugene Peterson that. >> [laughter] >> So, you know, it's like >> the message >> Well, we're going to get into this next week, but yeah, if you skip down to verse 35, "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulate?" Like this is the tone that I read it in. So, yes, I'm reading tone into the text. Careful, but I am reading tone into it. "Shall tribulation or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?" And then he's going to refer to Psalm 44 which we'll get into next week, but it's just kind of like that pretty much runs the gamut of all the crappy stuff that could go down, right? Imagine getting stabbed with a sword while you're naked and hungry. Like that that pretty much runs runs the gamut, but it's like even in the face of that, you got victory. Right? >> Even in the face of persecution we have victory. Like no one's going to see you know, what we see like bibl- in the in how we live nowadays like you know, our culture. Like our culture's going to view us as as out of touch or dinosaurs or however they want to put it because we believe in a biblical definition of marriage or of sexuality or anything like that. But, it's like they can be against us all we want and that's, you know, and that's fine because if God is for us, who cares who's against us? The only thing I care about is one speaking the truth and allowing that truth to bring people to repentance and trust in a holy God that has victory for them on the other side. >> Well said. Guys, I think that's a great place to leave it. Anything else on this batch before we hit it next week? Good. Good. Good. All right, guys. We'll come back here next week where we're going to start We may start back at a verse 31, but then we'll go to 33 as well. But, before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost. Undaunted Life for Mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Domination-based ministry. So, if you want to see this stuff continue, if you want us to see us equipment around the globe to continue to push back darkness, we need donors. We need guys just like you hopping on board. undaunted.life/donate. 100 bucks a month, 50 bucks one time, a billion dollars. 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Be sure to stream their music on Spotify, Apple Music, and wherever else you get your music. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience, keep seeking the lion of Judah. >> The lion. >> [music]