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If you were to buy each individual resource by yourself inside of Logos, it would cost you over $3,000. $3,000. But if you get the Undaunted Life Study bundle, you'll get all 200 plus resources for just $349.99. Guys, that's $3,000 worth of stuff for 350 bucks, guys. That's almost 90% off. And you know that you waste more than that on the hobbies that you have right now all the time. And these won't help you with your disciplehip and sanctification journeys, right? It's time to get real and take control of your Bible study and spiritual development. Click the link in the show notes for this episode. If you want the link, it's logos.com/undauntedlife. That's www.llog.com/undauntedlife or the link in the show notes. It's super easy to sign up. Again, go to the show notes and click the link or go to logos.comlife. Sign up for Logos and get the Undaunted Life study bundle right now. This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. Welcome back to the Forging Table. The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping them to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. At the forging table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience by digging into God's word. and we're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with us. Last one of this batch, we got Russ, we got Degan, we got Adam. And uh you know, we never have talked about this on the forging table. Um but you know, uh in our last break, we kind of brought up tulip a little bit. We were talking about, you know, Calvinism, Armenianism, those kinds of things. And so we're not going to go on a 45minute diet tribe. Uh Adam, uh so don't be throwing any pulling any pins on any grenades cuz that'll be 45 minutes of fertilizer. We won't be able to get back. But you uh you two uh diagonally were bringing up a few things because if I were to surmise correctly uh Russ, you're you do not have a flag planted firmly in either camp, Armenian or um or Calvinist. Uh Adam, as of several years ago, flag planted firmly in your, you know, the theology you were brought up in, churches you were brought up in, which were very Armenian. And as you have dug more into scripture, and I'm not, you know, putting my thumb on the scale here, but as you would describe it, as you've dug more into what does the Bible say versus what do I think it says, >> the more you've just had to reckon with what the words say, you have been going and I'm not putting my thumb on the scale here. I'm not doing it. I'm being fine. Can you just chill out over there? >> You're not putting your thumb You're putting your whole foot on the >> putting my thumb. I'm not putting anything on the scale. I'm not even leaning on it. I'm not even blowing on it. There's not a feather on the scale that I put there. tickle ball move where the guy hit it up and then it wasn't going over so he blew it over >> pretty good and it was legal so that Yeah. >> No, I play real sports. I play like grown adult male sports like not like adult life-sized ping pong. Okay, >> just keep keep going. I think you're making my point. >> I don't think you're making my point. You don't even know what my point is cuz you won't shut up. But as you've read more into the scripture and as you've gotten smarter over time, >> yeah, >> uh you have found yourself being more uh more attract not attracted to but you you found yourself realizing, man, after decades of feeling a certain way, the more I've reckoned with it, I've kind of gone more into the Calvinist camp. And that's been, you know, through point of a lot of the discussions here with uh with Grass Meer and Horn and even when Joby and Chandler were on here. But y'all were kind of just talking about a few different points because as we went back into last week, we were talking about, okay, presence of the spirit, but then you still sin. What does that mean? Where does the spirit go? If God can't be in the presence of sin and the spirit's part of the triune nature of the godhead, oh gosh, what do I do? And the the the reality is I just think reckoning with what tulip is as tulip being a response to what the Armenians believed. I think it just helps you keep going back to the text as what does the text say? >> All the while understanding as I've referred to the lifeway legionir ministries uh state of theology of 2025. You have self-described evangelicals. These are people that say the Bible is the highest authority in their life. those people uh a majority of them believe that God accepts the worship of all religions including Judaism and Islam that uh a majority but a slim majority believe that God created marriage to be between one man and one woman for life. So that means there's like 40some percent of self-described evangelicals that don't believe that. Um, and there's so many things that just show that, okay, there are people that are self-described evangelicals that lean on this is what I think the Bible says because I kind of already know what it says. I don't really need to read it. And then there's the people that read it and then have to sit and go, gosh, what does that mean? What does that mean? And as humans, the reason why we create teams, schools of thought, philosophical, you know, camps, if you will, is so we can have a way to understand things. It's connected to why we have creeds and things like that. It's like, okay, we have to have something to come back to. So, if I get off into fairy tale land or in La La Land or as I'm thinking through, there has to be some sort of foundational truth that I can keep coming back to and being like, okay, I don't know about that. I can't explain Nephilim. I can't explain dinosaurs. I can't explain, you know, dragon versus serpent in the garden. Okay, but here's the things that I can know. We're drawn to the unknowable, but let's just continue to plant our flag in the things that are knowable. So, with that very very downthe-middle neutral setup, Russ, feel free to uh, you know, continue the conversation we had just before we hit go. I >> I think as you were I think somewhat trying to describe and I've heard Pastor Mark say this so many times, every time he I would say almost every time this issue comes up, he does such a good job of initially prefacing that this is not an issue on itself of salvation. And that is so important to mention, especially if you're not familiar with diving into this level of detail. Like don't ever let somebody don't let somebody ever tell you that you have to be a Calvinist to be a Christian. That is bogus. That's ridiculous. Same thing. You don't have to say that you have to be an Armenian to be a Christian either. So, you know, these are deep in the weeds and they're important. It's not that these things are are not important because the more I've dove into it, I've realized that I'm I'm concerned about some of the other views and like what that can mean and like if you're not convicted about your sin, sometimes it seems like you might stay in your sin longer than you should, if that makes sense. So, so it it in and of itself is not salvific. That's really an important comment that needs to be made to begin before we get into something like this. And so, uh, Kyle, the other thing that you mentioned that we said before we started was that I would say over the last probably two to three years of my life, I've been in scripture more than I can remember ever being, having been, you know, raised in a Christian school, raised in a charismatic church, gone to church all my life, went to a a private Christian uh, university. And so, I've been there, done that, heard all of the heard all of the things, but I I was not u spending time in the word like I am now. And so I I can't get away from the fact that my whole life I have felt that things should be a certain way, which have always been hardcore Armenian. And for whatever reason, I can't describe it, but the more I read, the more I get into scripture, the more I start trying to connect the dots, the more I start leaning towards initially the total depravity mindset. And I can quickly go from total depravity to unconditional election. And that's about as far as I can get right now. I have I have struggles getting further into the limited atonement camp, that one is is a a challenge for me. But, you know, of our friends, the ones who I feel the one who I feel like knows this topic the best is is Horn. And he will repeatedly say that he feels like all five tenants kind of rest on themselves. They all they are all uh dependent on themselves. And I can kind of see the logic to that. And so, I still feel like it's okay for us to wonder and it's okay for us to debate these things and to figure out which camps we live we we fall in. And it's okay to not be perfectly in one camp and not the other. Like I I told you guys earlier, I binged, and you've heard me quote RC Sproul over and over and over because I binged him a lot preparing for this, but I also listened to another guy, Leighton Flowers, I think it was, who's an Armenian, because I wanted to kind of hear his topics and his his comments. And so I think that's the proper way to approach this. You need to hear both sides of the argument before you make your conclusions. I still get back to the fact that when I hear an Armenian give his his defense of that side, it just for lack of better term, it feels more touchyfey. It feels more like I'm only reading this one piece and like if you same thing in Romans 8, you read in Romans 8 all the things we've been exploring. What happens in Romans 7 is important. It's really critically important. And so once we know our depraved position, it makes more sense what's happening in 8. And I struggle on the Armenian side of things anymore because I don't see them connecting those dots as well. A lot of times it seems like they will cherrypick different verses in different places to connect the dots and it doesn't seem like it lines up as well as I thought it used to. Does that make any sense? For sure. >> Yeah. I I think so. Like agree with everything. Um I guess we can just leave it there. I agree with everything. I'm kidding. >> Well, that's not Nobody wants to listen to that. I think that um you know what I was saying before before we turn the cameras on and stuff is that there are I do think so I number one thing I agree with Horn is is that really on the tulip side of things they do rest on each other when you get to the end of one it kind of really it kind of forecast where the other one needs to begin >> and that is sometimes where my problem with it is is I can see that when you need the scripture to say something to make your one level really like final finalized up and be able to move to the next thing. Um that it conveniently um we can read it that way. And so like I think that there should just be a level of humility whenever I think you know I've mentioned this before reading this book on church history really opened my eyes up to the idea. give the name again if you don't mind. >> Um it is church history in plain language. I can't remember the author. He was a professor and now his it's fifth edition. So it's been been around a long time. It's a big book 600 pages. Um but >> Bruce L. Shel H L E Y. >> Yeah. And I would recommend the fifth fifth edition. Um they they've updated it. His son I believe has part of that project. But it really kind of opens your eyes to the fact that you probably aren't right on a lot of stuff. Just if if history if if history continues the way of the church, we will realize that there have been times of maturing of the church doctrine and there have been times of correcting. There have been times of fallback. I mean, I I was blown away by by reading some of the people that were the antibbaptists and that the first ones um to basically say like that, you know, baptism should be a sign of their commitment. And so, kind of pulling away from some of the church doctrines was blown away to realize that Luther wasn't trying to create a new church. He was trying to reform the Catholic. He was trying to bring them back. um blown away by how how some of these men with great theology um if you follow out the rest of their lives did some very horrible things in the name of those theologies as well. >> Yeah. Including Luther. um all of that um you know just kind of lets me look at it from a perspective of I am probably not right on everything and I also know that the other side is probably not right on everything and so it makes me more comfortable to say you know that pervenient grace seems seems right to me that like I can I can fully be assured of my full depravity and still think that there is some something in there that the overall scriptures tend to speak towards God making us where there's a choosing. In the Old Testament, you see all the times that God has called his people. Well, they didn't answer. They didn't choose. And then later Jesus says, you know, if my if they would have come to me, I would have sheltered them like a mother hen. Well, it seems like a wanting of them and them not. So, there's all these things that point towards these things. And yet, I read these scriptures, they're very much like predestined, chosen, all these things. So on that, like if I my flag was floating around, it's definitely more on the Armenian just because there's so much of the Calvinist side that is so this is where we're at that that is the main reason why I know that's not where I'm at because it is so assured of its position at times which is a really good thing. I mean, if you believe that, then I think that you that's your only stance you can take is that like I firmly believe it and that's not anything bad. It makes it harder for someone that doesn't firmly believe that thing to say, we talked about earlier that if if there's verses that say different things, um then I think that we've got to we've got to say that even on my most certain thing, if there's still 10% of verses that say something else, I can only be 90% sure of this because and and of that 90% sure, I can be 100% sure that these verses don't necessarily really correlate with what I thought there. And I have to be okay with that. And that's kind of where I float around a lot of that stuff is the the next steps in tulip. I see where the next pillar starts a lot of times starts at a convenient. This is what I need it to mean to make this other pillar hold up. Let me let me ask a quick question, clarifying question because I I I hear what you're saying and I feel I feel the same like if you were to say >> uh Sproul and MacArthur Vot Bacham I think would be in that same group. >> Um very humility would not be a virtue that you would attribute to either of those men in the way that they preached. It was very I would say fire and brimstone type preaching. And and I would also say like most people look at a hardcore Calvinist as, you know, they wear it on their shoulder and that's who they are. They make it part of their being. And that puts a lot of people off. And I agree. I'm probably one of the ones that it also kind of puts off. And there's a lack of humility there. So if if that's true, I would also say the other thing I struggle with on the Calvinist side of things would be if I had a hardcore pro-Calvinist church and a hardcore pro- Armenian church, which of the two would feel and seem more welcoming? >> I would almost assuredly, I would think, say an Armenian church would feel more welcoming. If I had to guess, if I was an unbeliever and I didn't know anything and I was just going to walk into a church and hear a sermon, I think I would lean more towards this side of things. And so, and that's the way I've always felt. I've always felt like this is a more welcoming side, which does make me feel better, >> but that's kind of makes back to the same point of what makes me feel >> versus what the text says. So, so I'm going to go back to >> I would just disagree. I mean, that's how he feels, but I would disagree with it being the way you feel or what the text says because that's my point is the text says both things. >> So, but the text can't mean two things. That that's that's the dividing line is it can't mean multiple things. It can only mean >> I guess that's where I guess that's where I may I may I may find myself is being okay with there are texts that seem to point to one thing then other texts that seem to point to other things and I it's not the text is wrong. I'm limited on my understanding. >> So this is what I would say to to that point to the humility point that you brought up. I want to go back to a compliment that RC Sproul gave Jmack before they died. they were part of some panel discussion at some conference or whatever and those who are very famously they would trade barbs back and forth in a very well-mannered type of thing and they would debate and they would you fervently be in their own camp and before RC Sproul died he he gave this public um compliment to J-Mack he said if John MacArthur and I go to the mat on an issue and I can show him via the text that his position is wrong, he will change his position immediately. Whereas there are other people that are so fervently, regardless of where they're so fervently positioned in one particular camp that they can't fathom a way to change their position. Maybe because they published a book that had the other position. Maybe because they've given a bunch of sermons. Maybe because if you look at the founding documents of their church, they were firmly in one camp versus the other in terms of here's what we think and believe. But he told John MacArthur, which would be the ultimate in humility, hey brother, you have thought this for decades, you're wrong. Here's what the text says. And so when you talk about the welcoming thing, so I know we bring up uh Joby in church of 11:22 quite a bit here. If you were to walk into Job's church, you would not automatically be like, I am in a Calvinist environment. This is a highly reformed d whatever. But then if you were to extrapolate out all the different things that the church believes that the elders uphold and that Joby preaches from the stage, it is firmly reformed and Calvinistic, right? And the, you know, Job's kind of all shucksy, I'm from South Carolina, whatever thing is. It's just what the text says. Like that's that's his thing. It's just that's just what it says. And I, Russ, I've challenged him with that. I'm like, yes, there's what the text says, but that's not the final point. It's what does it mean? >> And so because that's not the same thing because two separate people can read the same text and come to completely different conclusions and then boom, you just got two different denominations out of one reformed ideology or reformation ideology. >> So So you say that and what comes to mind and this may sound this may be a ridiculous analogy but I'm rolling with it. you guys know um they don't even maybe make them anymore, but it was like you'd see you'd buy these like pictures and they were have like a >> geometric print on it, but then you could like see something. Can you do it? >> Yeah. Where you can like >> relax your eyes? >> Yeah, that's a crap. They don't work. I've never been able to Can you see that? And you can see it >> color blind. >> Everyone's It's like relax your eyes and eventually I'm just My eyes just cross over. Relax your eyes. Okay. Have you ever been color blind checked? >> Uh, I'm not color blind. >> My son My son had the same trouble. He came back and he couldn't see him and we found out he was color. >> Listen, if my wife listens to this, she's going to say, "I knew you were color blind." >> Please, Lady Boy, listen to this and give us like, "No, I've never been tested." Uh, I I'm I'm pretty sure that I'm not color blind. >> You're color blind. So, anyway, so I've never been able to see those, right? So, if there was a a gallery of those or a store where you buy them, which probably doesn't exist anymore, but at one point maybe it did. >> And all of us went through that store and just went from deal to deal and and I'm looking at one. I I got one of these for like Easter one year and I was I'm the I'm one of five kids and I'm the only one. All of us got one and I was so mad that everyone was looking at mine and it was like, "Oh, it's a football player." And he's like he's like spread out. It's a receiver and he's like laying out to catch a ball and I'm like, "What?" And then I took it to my sister and like two seconds. Oh yeah, it's like a wide receiver. It's like a football player. He's catching a ball. Never saw it. Right. >> Poor kid. >> So I know. I know. It's uh >> Nobody ever told him this could. >> Yeah. I'm I'm pretty sure everyone's like, "Watch, we can get dig into Cross's eyes. Relax." So it's like but what I when you talk about um that two people can read the same thing it's like I can look at that all day long and I'm not going to see what you see right so it's not like what does it say but what does it mean it's like it you know about I will read scripture right and then I'll meditate and pray on it and later that day I'll have an experience that gives me some type of point of reference of like I I apply it in my mind. I'm like, "Oh, I think I think that's kind of a a picture of what I read this morning." Like, and it's like it it it reveals itself to me. The spirit is like as I sit and meditate, it's like the spirit reveals something to me about it. Um, so then the question is is like, is the spirit going to reveal to me that this is a geometric shape, but to you that it's a receiver catching a football? So with with you saying that here's and I don't want to stray too far away because I do want to start getting into verse 12. Um this thought I started to reckon with it a little bit last year because obviously I've been uh very open about certain kinds of churches. Uh typically this if you could just colloquially refer to them as the secret sensitive movement being churches that hey you know these churches probably aren't doing it right. Most of these churches don't have an elder board. They have a board of directors which is all the the pastor's buddies. So he can't even be kicked out of his own church if he does something sinful and wrong, can't be disqualified from his own pastor whatever. And then the more I thought about it, because some of the biggest secret sensitive churches are here in our community, the more I thought about it, I thought to myself, I wonder if everything's just different points of entry. M >> so let's say your foray into faith not Christianity just faith is walking into a seeker sensitive church because they did some sort of you know series at the movies or you know Christmas come on invite your friends like you know that kind of thing and then you hear a very very watered down gospel adjacent sermon and there's enough intrigue to where you're like I think I'll come back maybe next week, it may be a year from now, but you're at least open to the idea. That's a point of entry. Then there are people that are raised fundamentalist Baptists that you know since they were in the womb, they were going, you know, Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, and you know, you were that's just that was your entry point. It's the only thing you ever knew. It's the only thing that you ever experienced for a Muslim in Iran who has gone from because of what's happened with the uh Iranian regime, you've gone from Muslim to atheist and then all of a sudden Jesus comes to you in your dreams and reveals himself to you and says, "I am the way, the truth, and life and only way to the father is through me." That's your entry point. So I wonder if people becoming Armenian or waking up one day to realize they are Armenian or they're fervently digging in the text. They're at a reformed church or they're at a Bible church and they're tulip or tulip or whatever the thing is. >> Armenians dig into the text too. Just want to see >> it's possible. I mean certainly not I mean you know it's not maybe not likely but I mean I'm just kidding. But maybe it's just an entry point. Maybe it's just a description of entry point and it's it's a it's a positioning question as opposed to a truth question because I fervently you have to believe that the text means one thing. Whatever the text you're you're you're going to means one thing. It's the interpretations of that text that can peel you one way or the other. But the thing that is not confusing and not debatable is that Jesus at the age of 30, a Middle Eastern Jewish construction worker, was an itinerate rabbi that did three years of public ministry. He made exclusive truth claims about uh who he was, that he was the son of God. Don't listen to dorks on the internet or to Muslim apologists that say that he never claimed to be God. It's they didn't kill him because he didn't claim to be God. Okay? So we need to establish that that he was the most certifiable fact in the history of antiquity is that a man named Jesus was arrested by the Jewish Sanhedrin was crucified and killed by by the Romans and was placed into the tomb of Joseph of Arythea. We have the substantiation for all of those claims outside of the Bible from uh Jewish historians, Roman historians, Greek historians. Great. Got it. And then you have to have you have to reckon with what about the hundreds of people that saw him alive 3 days later and in the subsequent few dozen days before his ascension. Right? Those are the things that we can hang our hat on. Now how all that extrapolates to how you came to faith versus how you came to faith versus how you came to faith versus how I came to faith and how all those roads lead to somewhere. That is where we start getting into the delineation of denominations of uh philosophical worldviews of theological camps. And so I wonder if all of that can kind of be wrapped around the axle of at some point are we going to be having a conversation like this in heaven where we all clink our glasses together and be like, "Well, dad gummit Russ was right. Dad gum horn was right. Dad gum Adam was right. Dad gum uh you know something more so like that." And it becomes one of those issues of like we saw through the glass dimly all of us. But some of us, you know, one of us was a blind squirrel and we just found the nut. And so I wonder if it's more so about entry points as opposed to the camp that is 100% going to be right in the end. >> Is that fair? >> Yes. And I I also would go back to in in first Corinthians. This is one of the the the entrances of of of the the introduction to the letter to uh the church in Corinth. And this is Paul speaking. I appeal to you brothers by name of our Lord Jesus Christ that all of you agree and that there be no divisions among you but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment for it has been reported to me by Khloe's people that there is quarreling among you my brothers what I mean is that each of you says I follow Paul I follow Apollos I follow Cphus or I follow Christ is Christ divided was Paul crucified for you or were you baptized in the name of Paul so I I continue to go back to that and I I remember I recently watched the video of this is a long time ago when Chandler debated Ferdick and the great the the thing that brought that home to me at the end is is the moderator at the end of that debate. One of the things I loved was that he sort of brought it back together and explained that, you know, both of those men have a different purpose and they have a different vision for their church. And I never had really looked at Ferdick as an evangelist, but like once they said that, that sort of made sense to me. Like Ferdick and some of these other guys, the seeker, how what did you seekensitive the seeker sensitive thing once someone put that in the in the concept of of them being an evangelist, I sort of got it. And I was I went back to Corinthians. I'm like that does have a place like him and Craig and other guys like they are reaching people that no one else can reach. And so I I don't feel like there should be this this division or uh negativity sent their way for for for their ministry. Now if they venture outside of the word, that's a different thing. They should be called to the mat for that. And I think the danger zone in in that kind of church, at least what my concern is is like you eventually need more than just milk, right? And that's I think the concept that we've tried to say so many times, like you can't just be continue to give milk. You initially need some you eventually need meat. And so some churches might exist just to give milk and that's probably okay. And then possibly some of the people in that church should go somewhere else, go get some of the meat eventually. >> Yeah. graduate. >> If you if you just stay there forever and all you're all you are is fed in milk, my concern is that you're never really given the full concept of what this means and what how you in theory are supposed to be transitioned and live a different way according to what this says is >> I I I think that that concept of the entry points is so good. I think I just wanted to say this one thing about the word and it being what it is. I was reading in you know Hebrews says that the word is alive and active cutting. It gives this idea that it is seeking out >> who's reading it and where it wants to cut the truth into them. And so even though I do believe like the word is the word it says what it says there is some live and active portion of it that may affect you affect you affect you differently. I mean, how many times have we heard a pastor say, "Hey, I'm preaching on this verse. I've read it 500 times, and today I, you know, this week I read it." That's right. >> And it hit me hit me differently. The word didn't change. >> Its activity changed in in what it was doing to that person at the time. So, that's that's one thing. >> And maybe the first time he read it, he wasn't ready for what the truth. >> Yeah. Maybe it needed to be the entry point to where it caught him that first time. Um, because he wasn't ready. the other side about the entry points. Man, Kyle, it actually it makes me really happy um to hear you say that. That's one thing that I I pray for this podcast um and pray for you and I've seen you grow in that um is is to recognize to recognize that God is doing something. And I mean especially like again I'm bringing back this book. God was doing something in his church in some of the worst theological moments in the church. He was moving in people. He was moving in uh in people that people did not expect for him to be moving in. I mean um people that that we may not let speak in a church at times. He was moving in. Um there is something to the idea. um for us to acknowledge that there may be some good works of God happening in some places that we wouldn't do it that way and that that's okay too that we can have peace in that and then there's some churches that are just foundationally different on how they're going about the work and that's that goes with every body like so we're all part of the body of Christ there's this concept that the churches themselves are all different members of the body of Christ now I don't know theologically ally I I've got to look in and question myself on that. But if if we're all, you know, it says that, you know, we're all different pieces of the body of Christ and and Christ is our head. And so it helps you evaluate why you go to church at some point and you meet somebody that has a ministry and one particular ministry that you could care nothing about. And whenever they tell you about their ministry and you look at them with just a blank face and they can tell that you don't care, they go home and be like, >> "Do do they even know Jesus? cuz I don't see how they can know the same Jesus and not want to be a part of like what is going on with that person and and and that's part of where the scripture says that like we all have different roles and we should be okay with that. >> There's a part of me that wonders if sometime sometimes in the churches themselves they're playing different roles in people's lives this entry point thing and then some of them just have a different idea of a tactic on when to get them to eat. So like my worry like what you said about that they don't just want milk. I don't think anybody is is creating a church and they're like hey man this is just going to be the church of milk. Church of milk. Someone in that church has a plan that they think if I get people to this point this is where my my entry to the next point and next point and next point. Somebody on one of the podcasts here recently was talking about um some some very faithful disciplehip stuff that had happened within Life Church, which I'll just say like a lot of people look at that and say like that's an easy entry point church, but they knew some inner workings of some people that they had had a ministry with that they were like these people do not seem like they've just been fed milk the whole time. I know at our church that uh there is a pretty good commitment and sometimes even at the you know I've heard Marty say before that there's some there's some people that have um feelings about the idea of like man maybe we should go into this and and there's probably some truth in some of that but I think there's something special about submitting to the authority of the church and knowing that your leaders have plans as long as they do have plans but that like I think I would say our church plans uh As of right now, now I think this moves through seasons, but as of right now, they have done a heavy Sunday morning entry point uh that people that have not been to church can come in, receive that, and then we try to make a big push towards Sunday school and Wednesday nights. That is where the meat comes. And I mean, I think y'all know enough guys that have gone to that church. There's some there's some meat being fed there through Bible studies, through other stuff. Um, and then I also think the church has to recognize in seasons that there are times that those those modalities adjust >> back and forth between between things. I mean, even at Faith Bible, I would imagine there's seasons when the pastoral ship understands that there will be a different influx of people at this time. Let's make sure that that we are sensitive to those things. So, I mean, I think it's all wise stuff. I think that even at this table like the wisdom on those things from from being around each other is actually growing among us. >> Um it's just make I don't know not proud but it makes me happy to see that like there there is some of that happening with all these churches >> when all um uh la last word on this before we dig into uh Romans 8. Um, some of the churches that we've already mentioned, um, and some of the pastors that we've already mentioned, I have it on good authority that some of them have come around to the realization, oh man, I think I've been feeding a diet of milk to my flock. >> And if you think about the strength, think think of an adult male, think about how strong you can be and how much muscle you can develop and bone density you can de develop on a diet of milk. It'll sustain you. you will live. You will not be that strong. You you have some significant limitations. And when you start introducing high quality red meat into your diet, all of the sudden musculature changes, performance changes, >> and there's some discomfort >> and there's there's some gastrointestinal issues that may come up. U but those are some growing pains that may even become growing pangs. And so there's going to be all of that there. Some of these people that bought into the the seeker sensitive model have woken up to the fact that hey maybe I've not been leading my flock astray because there are certainly those there are seeker sensitive churches where there is no gospel there. There is no gospel and there are pastors that are not even saved that are leading a flock of people that couldn't be saved because they're not hearing the gospel from their pastor. Right? I'd say not be saved because of what that pastor is doing to be clear. But then they're like, "Okay, we need to change these people's diet, right? We need to mature these people." And above all else, I need to teach them how to feed themselves. And so at some point, they thought to themselves, may maybe they got it. They started getting high on their own farts a little bit. They're like, "I'm the point. I have to keep feeding these people. I have to keep cuddling them and giving them the bottle or they will no longer uh, you know, be able to to progress." And then they realize, man, if I were to pull out the bottle, these are babies. When you pull the bottle or the teat away from the baby, what do they do? They cry and look for the nearest bottle or te, right? And so, it's only once you are able to sustain yourself and feed yourself that I think true disciplehip, significant sanctification can can even begin to happen. And I want that does actually dovetail into uh 123 and 14. Don, if you can read Romans 8 1213 and 14 and I want to make a point on 13 and then we'll jump off from there. >> So uh starting in 12 >> 12 13 and 14. >> Uh again, this is in the ESV. Um so then brothers, we are debtors not to the flesh to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die. But if by the spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led by the spirit of God are sons of God. So I want to really key in on on a section of verse 13. But if by the spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, this is in the present tense. So it could be are putting to death in the process of putting to death. This is in the present tense. So this is the the concept of mortification. Okay? So you've heard maybe about mortification, vivification, sanctification, glorification, all that. This is mortification. You're putting to death these things, but to be abundantly clear, and Keller helped make this clear for me, the death must be delivered violently and totally. Violently and totally. And so to go back to um uh where where were we in the past couple of weeks where it talked about uh verse seven of chapter 8 where the flesh is hostile to God. That kind of you know there's a hostility there. There's a war between the flesh and the spirit. You have to look at an army of a 100 men fed with milk versus an army of a 100 men fed with meat. There is going to be no contest there. If the only delineating factor between these two armies is not their training, it is not, you know, their experience with warfare, but it is their diet, one will prevail over the other. And so, if you are trying to mortify, to put to death the deeds of the body, the deeds of the flesh, you have to be as violent as possible, and you have to consider yourself total victory as the only option, right? And so, I think that's incredibly important here. And that goes back to the discussion we were just having. If you were on a diet of milk, there's only so much you can do to change what's happening inside of the the church that you are a member of. And at some point, you might have to realize in order to continue being the head of your household, you might need to graduate from that church to a church that is going to be delivering more meat to you so that you are more present in the battle between the flesh and the spirit. So, let's jump off from there. >> I I'm gonna have a hard jump off on that one. I feel this this comes from me being a son of a pastor is I sometimes wonder if people don't find excuses to not absorb the meat that is being handed to them because just just like they like the milk sometimes have people have gotten used to this idea of being handfed the meat. Does that make sense? Like if you're if you're I'm a big proponent of people being at the church that they're at um really in in like prayerful discernment. I I always think if somebody has switched church now, there's some social reasons on like kids and some things that I can understand, but I'm a big proponent that if somebody is telling me that they're considering leaving a church and it's not because of a uh what's the word I'm looking for? Falsehood in the scripturees. >> Heresy. Um, I'm a big proponent of asking that person to be like, "Man, I'm I'm glad that you've come to that assurance. Uh, how much time in prayer and fasting did it take you to come to that?" Because I I think that there's a call to us as a part of the body to have an actionable effect on our church in a way that if we feel like something is wrong, how long do we spend working on that and or trying to gain the understanding of our church leaders to ask them like, "Hey, I'm looking for this. I'm looking for meat. Where do you see that you're providing that? Am I just missing it?" And sometimes >> you see that as like submission to your elders, submission to your shepherd kind of a thing. >> Yeah. I see that as as a way to submit to submit to that and submit to the idea of um sometimes I think that people jump off from the I from the idea that it's easier to go some someplace else that maybe the feeding is more my style versus and then they can kind of lean back on me like well I wasn't being fed. Well, were you not being fed? Did you not like the style you were being fed? Or maybe that church was growing in how they were feeding and maybe they needed somebody like you to step up, right, and be like, >> "Hey, who's who's who's shoveling this median? Who's bringing it out? Oh, we don't have any. Well, I'm just going to go abandon these hundred other people I go to church with." Or maybe you go to the church leadership and they go, "Man, we know we're weak in that. >> Would you be praying about helping us start that ministry?" >> I just, and again, I am totally biased. This comes from a pastor's family where I saw people I loved uh leave leave the church, not just our church, other churches and come to our church at times leave churches for a lot of different reasons. And one thing I do know about the human condition is self manipulation is the most likely form manip manipulation you will succumb to. And so that that is just one area that like I'm really hesitant to give people a jump off a jump off platform other than to say like you need to be in prayer and I would say fasting and I would say you you need someone else praying and fasting for you that you that doesn't necessarily know all of your bias and that is just praying for you to have clarity because I think that that is a very uh strange place to be in. And then I think God God works it out too. I mean, I know a lot of faithful people that have have done different stuff and the Lord is not going to be thwarted by by that as well. >> Your perspective is unique. So, I I think some of what I hear you saying is that like you've lived it and seen, you know, I guess your father uh being the lead pastor of the church. So your father's a lead pastor and you know you've seen people that you grew up with and knew and felt like were kind of on his side or on your side or whatever leave for like um what seemed like um improper reasons or like reasons that didn't make sense >> that I'd say they made sense. I could just see the self manipulation of finding a reason and then just playing that out in your head. Mhm. >> I' I've got a buddy who's a pastor and I've had this conversation with him and you know what what he from from the pastor's perspective is is what he would like is for people to give him a chance, right? Kind of like what you talked about. >> Well, there's your opportunity if if we would do that. There's your opportunity to go and say, "Here's here is what I heard you say. Is this right? Or here is what I believe kind of the church is going for and what our focus is." I think this piece is missing. >> If the leadership rejects your like uh whatever that message is, there's your sign that you're maybe in the wrong place, >> but you've you could have opened the door for them to welcome you in. >> They probably already know >> and and they pro and that's he's he said that too. He's like, "Yeah." He goes, "I know our our children's ministry is terrible, but you know you know and we're working on it and all of those things." The thing that frustrated him the most uh is that he wished people would just have that conversation. >> Because if if it is an issue, he's like, I want to be able to love him on the way out, right? But but that's typically not the way it goes. It's people have you they they heard something that you said that they didn't like or for whatever reason you you're their their kids don't like going there because the youth is whatever. So they they've made the decision that maybe like this church isn't for us, but they don't uh in in his mind what the way the conversation would be like, hey, that's okay. >> Yeah. >> But what but what but they don't bring it to him. They they wait and then their attitude about the church changes. They still go to the church, but he said they the worst thing is when by the time they they it's like they wait and compile this long list of grievances. >> Now they are it's the hummingbirds and buzzards thing. Right now it's like I I think we want to leave. Now we got to have a big list of reasons to leave so when we go tell the pastor that we're leaving, we're justified in doing so. >> He he can't just cross one off. This is a whole deal. >> And he's like, "So then I leave that. they've already made up their minds to leave. >> So, that was happening anyway. And the only thing that comes out of that meeting is that I feel >> like that our that that our church sucks >> and I suck and I'm wrong and children's ministry sucks and that's why they're leaving. And he's like, you know, at the end of the day, it's just okay. >> I think there's a lot of hurting pastors out there. I think I actually think it's the most uh uncared for group in the Christian platform >> is pastors. I think that there are so many I think there's so many that know the things that are wrong >> and some of them don't admit it because they're weak, but they're weak because they've been beaten. >> Uh some of them have been faithful leaders of a failing congregation. I mean, like I always go back to Paul. Can you imagine him going to a minister's meeting and them asking him, "How's it going, man? How's your ministry? Is it thriving?" >> Well, I just got bit by a snake. Thanks. >> He's like, "Well, depending on the shipwreck, >> the shipwrecks and the snake bites and wherever I go, they kick me out." Oh, but you leave doors open. No, they actually like tell only reason I got out of there is they thought I was dead. I think I might have been dead. Christ may have resurrected me. I I don't really know. Everybody thought I was dead, but I'm okay now. You know, like there's so many times that we would judge we we judge churches. You know, you know who is the most humble about not judging churches based off of their platform or their congregation is pastors who have large churches. Most of the pastors that have really successful large churches are the last ones to judge another pastor >> by the numbers of people in their church. You know who are the worst about judging pastors based off of their church size are the are the pastors with the smallest numbers of uh congregants members. And I think that is a very good temperature of how we can tell like there are pastors that are hurting. There are pastors that are in a work situation. They don't they they don't know how to dig get out of a hole they're in. Uh whether it be like ministry-wise, uh meatwise, milkwise, whether it be uh financial, like and I think what they realize is if they're open about the it's not always up and to the right, then you start having people jump ship and people jump jump ships that they think are sinking. And so when pastors are vulnerable sometimes I think that's the fear. So >> one one thing so u Tom Rener who's written a lot of different books he's been on the show several times um does a lot of stuff with with churches. I remember I can't remember which which episode uh which interview with him where he was talking about this but he's like do you understand how many pastors are just thirst thirsting for one word of encouragement. >> And I it goes back to you know it doesn't take a whole lot to get Jordan Peterson choked up and you know praying for him. hopefully he can come back into the the public eye. We we certainly need need him back back in the fold. But, you know, when Jordan Peterson would talk about how he would go all over the world to do his speeches in front of these, you know, full arenas to hear a guy that, you know, used to lecture at the University of Toronto and Harvard and all that. Uh, kind of crazy to even think about that. He just said when I would interact with these young men, I would just be and he he would get upset and like start, you know, crying as he was describing it. I was just seeing these men that were just these young men that were just starving for a word of encouragement. Starving for a hand up. Starving be for that one bit to say like, you know what? You're not where you should be. It's your fault. The world's not against you, but you've not done yourself any favors. Let's pick oursel up. Let's dust ourselves off. Let's clean up our room. Let's take dominion over this small part of the planet. >> And then let's start critiquing the world. Let's start building. let's start going from there. And for pastors as well, again, I don't think pastors need to get a pass to where it should all just be, you know, uh compliments and rainbows and sunshine and all that. If they're doing things and saying things and teaching things that are heretical, that needs to be called out uh by the flock. They should have elders that should have put the kibos on that to begin with, but a lot of them don't even have elder boards as I've talked about before. But I think for a lot of pastors, there has to be some humility and recognition of what is my what does my congregation need? Because a sheep is a dumb animal. It doesn't have any predatory instincts. Like it'll walk to its death. It'll it'll run to its death. It's a stupid animal. But collectively, the sheep will be able to communicate things to you as their shepherd, which will allow you to be a better shepherd, to be a better protector and provider over them. And a lot of pastors are insulated from that because maybe they're whisked in to the back of the church in a black SUV. They go out and they do their little TED talk and then they get back in the black SUV and get whisked away. And they say it's because of security concerns, but ultimately it's because they don't want to deal with what ministry actually means. They don't want to hold hands uh with the person dying of cancer. They don't want to talk to the widow who who just lost their, you know, husband of 50 years. And they that that's kind of their style and what they want to do. And they've built an entire machine to to ensure that they can keep writing books, keep getting invited to the conferences, but not actually have to do the work of a pastor. And the writer of Hebrews tells us that that pastor is going to have to give an account for how they shepherded their flock someday. And it can't be well well like I didn't know. I didn't know that I was feeding the milk. There's got to be something more substantive. >> Let's play devil's advocate. What if your flock is 50,000 people? >> That's where you get into the people. >> I mean, how many I mean, how many people can you know? How many funerals are you going to go to? How many bedsides are you going to be by? Are you going to be there all day every day? Like you can't you can't you can't take that weight. So your point is 100% correct and and and makes sense, but like you can't you can't do that for everybody. That's why you need deacons. That's why you need elders. That's why you need people to help you. But you know that one pastor can't be expected to, you know, be that person for everybody either. >> You're actually backing into the argument for how big should a church be. >> Whereas most pastors are asking how big can it be? It's how big should it be? >> Well, one other Oh, go ahead. >> Well, I know some pastors that it's not only do we not want another campus, it's I want one Sunday morning service. We're going to be one body. We're all going to gather together. And if and if >> and if our building doesn't accommodate, then we're not doing even a second service because they can't be a body together in multiple services throughout the day. I liked what you said earlier about, you know, what would Paul, I think, did you say Paul, how would Paul describe his ministry? I think is what you said. And it reminded me of in in Galatians 2 when Paul has to oppose Peter. And if you remember the story, Peter is sitting there eating like a Gentile, right? You know, he's sitting there eating like a Gentile and enjoying life. And then it says James comes in with some certain, you know, other Jews and Paul removes himself and leaves and goes out. And did I say Paul? Peter Peter Peter removes himself >> and and leaves. And this is great because Paul says, "But when feas Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face because he stood condemned." Oh, that's so This is like Kyle Thompson written all over it. Kyle Tom loves this. I this should be the verse at the bottom of the undoned love website. I opposed him to his face. >> I do love it. >> Yes. >> And then so once uh him and this is crazy, Barnabas also gets led astray. But in the end, this is Galatians 2:14. But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cphus before them all, "If you though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?" How difficult would that have had to been for Paul to stand up to Peter that was in public at in at the church >> and he had been waiting I think I mean I'm trying to think of when when Galatians was in ministry but remember that he had his conversion he went to Damascus for 10 years then got the opportunity to go and meet those guys >> and then like while he was there he basically I believe it says like he got into an argument about the scripture with this certain group >> and it almost implies that they looked at him at that point and was like dude's legit, you know, like he's going to get stoned >> and then and then they got him out of there and stuff. And so like the credibility but also the the um >> the vulnerability that he takes at that point to be like these are the guys that signed off on me being able to be even called an apostle. >> Yeah. >> And I'm going to go do this. But I mean, it just shows the full the full confidence that he had in who Jesus said he would be. >> That's crazy about Paul is Jesus stopped him on the road. And does he does he say it to him? >> I'd have to look at what he says to him. I know he says, who's the guy that uh took the blindness away from him? Um he went to go after he was blinds and God talks to him and he doesn't want to go. He doesn't he doesn't want to go to him. He says, "Don't this is the guy that's notoriously, you know, been against the Christians." And and I know that God says to him, "He is my chosen one to go speak this to the Greeks or the Gentiles." Let's just look it up before I butcher this. And >> yeah, keep an Yeah. >> But Anias, that's right. And so like Paul knows who he he is, not even on the account of Peter, which we've talked about with the Catholic Church. It's weird that they say that their lineage of the popes came from Peter because you see Peter here actually get kind of thwarted by Paul >> in this. But it just shows the amaze the amazing ability that Paul had to have his security not built in what anybody else said about his ministry. Not anybody else said about him, his understanding. He knew who he was in Christ and he knew that he had a solid foundation of what Christ wanted from his people. So >> agreed and I mean I think it piggybacked on to what you said about the the difficulty of a pastor and I can't imagine the difficulty that that had to be and that had to be to confront Peter like that. That's not an easy thing to do. >> Well again it's so when we look at you know I talked about entry points and all these different things. Part of it is what does your church's theology assuming you have one uh what does your church's theology lead to? What does that lead your flock to do? And so that's one point when Mark was in the studio. Well, this wasn't when he was studio. This was a private conversation, but he was basically like, "Yeah, a lot of these big churches, they don't have a theology. Their theology is we need you to come back next week. We need you to give so that we can pay for that next uh campus and cash and we need to just launch another MC church and another MC State and we just got to, you know, keep the ball rolling." But he's like, "Uh, assuming there is a theology there, what does that lead to?" And so, uh, you know, this happened recently. There's going to be more to it and all those different things, but there are people looking at these churches and they're like, "Oh, you know, look at all what these churches are spending on buildings and look at what they're doing." Like, they could have fed the poor. And it's like, you know what, you're right. They could have fed a bunch of poor hungry people in and around their region of the United States one time for the amount of money that they spent on that building. But then when you invest that money in a building, you're investing in a foundational gathering place for a flock of people that if they are galvanized in a particular direction towards a particular ministry will then themselves give of their time, effort and capital >> towards the preservation of lives, you know, through pro-life ministries towards uh things that take care of the widows and the orphans to, you know, making people whole that leads to more human flourishing. And so I I think for a lot of people it's like, okay, whatever your theology is, wherever you're planting your flag as a church, what does it lead to? Like what are the fruits of what you're doing? Because there are certain things that are just, you know, there's a legal phrase that's the fruit of the poisonous tree. And so if you go about getting evidence in an illegal manner and it can be proven by the defense that you got that evidence via, you know, nefarious means that is fruit of the poisonous tree, thus inadmissible in court. And so with that being the case, there are ministries out there that do have fruit, but it's fruit of the poisonous tree. And so it even goes back to what we talked about in verse um verse 8. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. So can they do things that look and feel and categorically are good, >> moral? Yes. >> But those people foundationally are still in enmity towards God. And so they cannot please him with their actions because they are still in Adam. Um, as we kind of wind to a close here, one thing I wanted to hit on verse 13 again, uh, as I was reading through verse, you know, 13 again, 12, 13, and 14, because again, you see four at the beginning of verse 13. So that's referring back to 12. You see four in verse 14. That's referring back to 13. So read 13 again. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die. But if the spirit you put to or if by the spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. How do we do that? How do we present tense are putting to death the deeds of the body? One of the ways you do that is you constantly remind yourself of the gospel of Jesus Christ. You constantly preach the gospel to yourself. Where I feel a lot of Christians get to is they get to this point where they're like, "Oh yeah, gospel. Got it. Jesus sent down from God, died on a Roman cross, paid for my sins. I accept it. Get out of hell. Free card. Ready, set, go. You know, cheap grace. The rest of my life. Everything's all good, right? No, actually like yeah, if you extrapolate it down to the most simplest form, yes, but at the end of the day, you have to constantly remind yourself of somehow someway that you may not be able to elucidate clearly and perfectly when Jesus died on the cross that somehow counted for me for my sin debt that I owe to a holy and just God. So, how do we continue to put to death the flesh as we seek the spirit and the guidance of the spirit and we have the spirit continue to turn our attention towards those things that are of God. The only way to do that is through the lens of the gospel. And so, if you're not constantly reminding yourself and bringing yourself back to the foot of the cross on Goltha, you've missed it. You've missed the whole thing. >> Last thoughts as we wrap up this batch. >> I say what Adam said, you know, and it goes back to you. How do you put those things to death? I think you've got to allow someone like a Paul to have that much power in your life. Someone re very faithful, very committed. Maybe it's not even where y'all are doing ministry right there together, but like somebody that you know that there is that connection. I think that's good good insight. That's a good way to see the things that you need to put to death. >> Yeah. We talked about having people in your life that put hold a mirror up to yourself, right? And you know that mirror is framed with the gospel like you said and it's because you have good friends and they know the gospel and that they're you you you've spent time with them, you've prayed with them, you know them, you trust them. Uh that takes a long time. So get started if you don't have that now because that that's it. they they qualify themselves as as to be able to show you your reflection because of of a long commitment of friendship and and faith in Christ. So start building now if you don't have that. >> And guys, spend some time in Mark 2. >> So when you hear Joby talk about Matt carriers, again, we don't know the entire background of these men. I do not believe that the the invalid on the mat was unknown to these men >> because these men, these four men were willing to pick up a corner of this man's mat. Just think about the filth that was on this mat. This man was defecating and sweating and unbathed and he was on that mat and pretty sure this happened at Peter's house, right? >> They can't get through. Think of how crowded it had to be inside and outside to where they couldn't get him to Jesus. And these four men grabbed a corner of the mat. They destroyed Peter's roof. Do some research on the roofs of houses in this area of Galilee at that time. This would not have been a quick process. This would have been very loud. This would have been very disruptive and the consequences of which would have been falling down on the the the most fervent people sitting at the feet of Jesus. They destroyed another man's house. Why? To get him to the feet of Jesus. And so now we don't have Jesus. We have the helper, right? That we have the helper that he sent. He had to leave in order for us to get the helper. Do you have four men in your life minimum that will pick up a corner of your mat when you are down and can't, you know, get up yourself and will take you to the foot of the cross? Will they take you to where Jesus paid for your sins? Because if you don't have that, back to what I said earlier, you have missed it, right? Maybe you you've got some accolades, maybe you've done some good things in business, maybe you're you're super jacked and tan, maybe all the things, right? You've got a lot of things going your way. But if you've not made the investments and those kinds of guys, the guys that will take your phone call at 4:20 in the morning and immediately call you back because they realize there's something going on and I need to be ready to respond, you've missed it. You haven't put the right deposits in the right accounts and when you need to withdraw, there will be nothing there. Adam, any last word here? >> No, I can't second that. >> All right, fellas. Let's get out of here. Quick resilience boost before we let you guys go. Adam and Dawn in life. Our mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. You heard the ad at the beginning, Logos or Logos Bible software, we've got the Undone Life study bundle. It is amazing. Check that out. Link is in the show notes. Logos.com/unedlife. If you want the forging table starter set from Crossway, five amazing resources at 50% off. You can get the instructions in the show notes. And again, we are a donationbased ministry. So, if you're wondering how we can pull all this off, how we can pay for the electricity that drives all this stuff that works part of the time, it's because we have guys that hop on board and support us. undon.life/donate. Check the link out in the show notes. Thank you everyone for listening to this episode. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five-star review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@unaed.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming. www.undaunted.life. The music on this podcast is the song Conqueror by the Christian metal band Void Awaken. Be sure to stream their music on Spotify, Apple Music, and wherever else you get your music. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the Lion of Judah. Heat. Heat.