Hey guys, real quick. So, I've talked to men literally all across the globe about where they're missing the mark and how they want to improve. They normally talk about how they wish they were in better shape, they wish they had a better relationship with their loved ones, they wish they had more success and influence at work and some other stuff like that. But, here are some of the most common and biggest things that I hear. I wish I knew more about the Bible. I wish I could lead my family spiritually. I wish I could recall more scripture. I wish Bible study wasn't such a struggle. Well, guys, I've got news for you. You don't have to keep wishing. It's time for you to start doing. It's time for you to stop wasting your time and money on stuff that has no eternal value whatsoever. I keep hearing you talk about how you want to be more biblically literate and spiritually resilient, and now is your chance to prove that you mean it. That's why I want you to take advantage of our partnership with the most powerful Bible software on planet Earth, Logos. So, Logos approached me about putting something together for the Undaunted Lifers out there, and we collaborated to create something I'm super pumped about, the Undaunted Life Study Bundle. So, here's the skinny on the bundle. There are over 200 individual resources, and they include titles from authors like Voddie Bauckham, Charles Spurgeon, R.C. Sproul, John MacArthur, Matt Chandler, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, William Lane Craig, Paul Washer, John Stott, Doug Wilson, Paul David Tripp, J.I. Packer, and a whole bunch more. And there are so many helpful resources in there. There's Bibles, commentaries, Old and New Testament study guides, devotionals, systematic theologies, courses dictionaries histories encyclopedias, non-fiction books, and more and more and more. And here's the most insane part about this deal. If you were to buy each individual resource by yourself inside of Logos, it would cost you over $3,000. $3,000. But, if you get the Undaunted Life Study Bundle, you'll get all 200-plus resources for just $349.99. Guys, that's $3,000 worth of stuff for 350 bucks. Guys, that's almost 90% off. And you know that you waste more than that on the hobbies that you have right now all the time, and these won't help you with your discipleship and sanctification journeys, right? It's time to get real and take control of your Bible study and spiritual development. Click the link in the show notes for this episode. If you want the link, it's logos.com/undauntedlife. That's www.logos.com/undauntedlife, or the link in the show notes. It's super easy to sign up. Again, go to the show notes and click the link, or go to logos.com/undauntedlife, sign up for Logos, and get the Undaunted Life Study Bundle right now. This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. Welcome back to the Forging Table. The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. At the Forging Table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience by digging into God's word, and we're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with us. That's Ryan. That's Zach. That's Russ. And here we are, guys. We've had this silly little timer. If you listened last week, you know we've had this timer for so long, but I quit. It is out of here. We are done with that timer. It is done. Is it broken? Did it break? Okay, it is in pieces. It is shattered. But, It's back. uh last last in the middle of last episode we >> [laughter] >> It They We're We're going We're going all in here. On last episode, I had you all guess in the latest Titus Kennedy book about, you know, people that were in the Bible archaeologically speaking, and I had you all guess how many people were in there. I let you look at the table of contents just real fast, and everyone got to guess. The guesses were Russell Eustace, 82. Ryan Horn, 68. Zach Todd, 92. There are 125 people listed, and so Zach, you have won the right to be the first person to turn over the turn over the hourglass. Do it. Do it. Do it, and let the English see you do it. Uh English. Here we go. I think it's the first successful time I've ever started our time on this show. >> You were the the the worst offender. Yeah, you were the worst offender by a long shot. I'm bummed out I lost, but of all the things [snorts] I've lost, I miss my mind the most. Yeah, well, you know what? Life can be a real crazy train, can't it? And so, we're just going to move on from here because yesterday we got through verse 12 of Romans 7, and so we're going to go ahead and get into this next section here. So, I will say there's, you know, when we get into Romans 8, I'm not sure there's a more quotable or more quoted book, and maybe even of the entire New Testament outside of the Gospels than what we see in Romans 8. But, this next section here is something that you'll see a lot of people even, just, you know, refer to in everyday life, and they don't even realize it's from the Bible. So, Zach, we're going to get into this next section here. If you'll just go ahead and read Romans 7:13 and 14. Did that which is good then bring death to me? By no means. It was sin producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. So, the thing with this entire next section, so verse 13 through really the end of Romans 7, there's a lot of different parts here that are controversial, a lot of different parts that that people will debate meaning and who's this referring to and those types of things. But, really the the first thing that I I want to get into, even as it pertains to to verse 14, where it's talking about the law is spiritual, like we're talking about spirituality, and Wiersbe pointed this out in his commentary, spirituality in the sense that we're dealing with the inner self here. So, uh and so we're dealing with a combination, rather, of the inner self and outward actions. So, it's it's the combination of both as what we're referring to. And then when we get into the next section, it really kind of the rubber starts to meet the road in terms of how this refers to an individual. But, let's go ahead and broaden out our discussion of 13 and 14. I think this really points out sin. And I think I've said this before, I think you might have brought it up, but how how many times do we is it hard for us to call ourselves sinners? And to say that we've done sinful things? And usually when we do sin, what do we say? We say we've made a mistake. Yeah, we're mistake-ers. Yeah. >> mistakes. Like, I don't know. It just kind of comes back. Like, I think the thing that really brought me to a core belief in the Gospel was coming to terms with the fact that I'm a sinner. Because even through all my church life and even as growing up, I never looked at myself as a sinner. I looked at myself as a person who just make mistakes. And if I'm just a person who makes mistakes, why would a holy God have to send his son to die on the cross for me? Just because I made some mistakes. It doesn't seem right. Yeah, it doesn't seem to go with the gravity of what the Gospel even is. Yeah. Right? Because it's like, do you need that level of atonement. Substitutionary atonement to atone for Oh, I said when I should have said Yeah. Like, is that what we're talking about here? >> we make That's what That's how we make it sound. It's like we're It's like we don't want to say that within the human element there is nothing bad. Like, we're just people that make mistakes, but we have to come to terms that we are sinners, and it's just really hard to do that. Any other sinners want to want to launch in there? You two are being awful quiet over there. Is it cuz y'all are thinking about golf? Is that what's going to happen? Is this going to be a theme right now? Because there's a silly little timer Honestly, no. >> [laughter] >> I'M NOT EVEN WHEN WE FIRST STARTED, I did have it up still from the break, and I I took it away. I was like, no. So, the people behind the curtain here is we because the Bible is more important than a silly little golf tournament that very few people watch or care about. And I will say, but right now, apparently, we're we're on some sort of holiday because this is Sunday afternoon of the Masters, right? And there's several guys that are all within the lead of getting some sort of green jacket, blue jacket, who gives a rip, you know what I mean? But, y'all are Are y'all stressed out right now because of where we're at? Do you want to tell people where we're at? >> No, not stressed at all. Do we want to give people a peek behind the curtain, like where we're experiencing this in history because we're technically in the present and the future right now? And the past. I don't I don't know how to explain that, but yeah, I want to go for it. Who's winning? Who's winning right now at this moment? >> Rose. He's 12 under. >> Does Rose have a first name? Uh yeah. >> Derek. Justin. Derek Rose. So, Derek Rose, he retired from basketball, and now he's dominating golf. Congratulations to Derek Rose. And uh McIlroy is There's like a tie for second by three people. But, isn't McIlroy the the Irishman? >> he just chipped on to where he might have a putt that could make him tied for the lead, so I don't know if it's eagle putt. I didn't get to hear. You started. I don't know. Oh, yeah, my my bad. Hey, you know, here we go, starting this Bible [laughter] study. My bad if that is a inconvenient timing. I mean, do we need to go ahead and just like kind of postpone what we're here to do for the people around the globe that are trying to >> would be the old covenant postpone the the Bible study. >> We're exactly in the So, that's not why we're doing this. Do you particles? I was trying to figure out, so there's something that's kind of stirring that we'll we'll get into later at this. I'm excited by it cuz it's something that's I I just now have kind of been opened up to it, and so I'm seeing some of these words, and I'm seeing where it's saying the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, and I'm realizing that he's setting something up here to where he's given us all this context of his own struggle. He's broke He broke broke this into this now how it affected me. Um I still have issues. I I have all this stuff going on. I have this wrestling with stuff, and then he's still breaking into the idea that the law, and you brought up last week that law here, um what I read is the same word, but it has different contexts at different times. One of them means a principle, and then one of them means the actual law. So, whenever you're reading this, you're having to try to figure out, okay, there's times that he talks about one or the other, and then there's times that he's talking about kind of a combination of both, that they can, at sometime, both be in sync with each other, and sometimes it's principle, sometimes it is Old Testament law. And so, here I'm just trying to figure out, okay, like, is this an in-sync moment? Is he saying the principle and the law is spiritual, but he's of the flesh, and so he's basically saying there's a disconnect between how these things even affect each other, that the flesh is what brings him sin, and that sin is a real thing, but sin was brought about by the knowledge [clears throat] of it being there that happened through the law, but the law was good, and he's kind of doing this deal where he's showing that us that these two things are dancing around each other, and he's kind of it's kind of like watching somebody tie a really sophisticated knot, and they're kind of making it look fun, where things are going all different ways, and all of a sudden they pull on it, and it's it's no more, they kind of like do a magic trick with it. I feel like I feel like that's what he's setting up here is this idea that like this seems really complicated, and we're seeming like they can't match each other cuz one is flesh and one is spiritual. How does the spiritual affect the flesh? And then later on we're going to see him kind of pull this all together. I like your analogy that you put together like that, but I kind of see it a little differently. Rather than it already being one string, it's two separate strings that he's welding together. And then when he pulls it, it's all one together. Because that's what that When he pulls it, he's going to pull it in eight. Right. I mean, this is just setting everything up in eight, because we're going to talk about flesh and spirit. Right. Right now we're just talking about flesh, and we're talking about, you know, why we're in need of a savior, why we need the spirit. And he wrote this in a way that almost begs us to not understand part of it. Like, it the wording is jumping back and forth and back and forth. I do, I don't, I am, I'm not. And it's like just asking us to have turmoil with it. >> he's like showing the internal struggle of what it is to be a believer. Because he's a believer now than he what he was before, but he still deals with the fleshly struggle. As we go further into this, we'll we'll talk about he'll actually talk about, I deal with sin. And then now it's like, all right, is he talking about his old self, or is he talking about his new self? But I think it's as a Christian and as a believer, we have that internal struggle all the time. Do we listen to our flesh and do what our flesh wants, or do we listen to the spirit? And that's the thing, like, what does sin bring us? What does What does sin brought you? Does it bring you happiness? No. And but it does bring you pleasure? Absolutely. Well, no, but like there's times in sin, like, we want to talk about sin, okay? Um sin that I probably could have dealt with. Let's talk about pornography. Or um you know, when you're when you're watching that stuff and you're going through it, which I've done in my past, like, at that moment it brings pleasure. And I'm like, hmm, this feels really nice. But then after the fact, you start thinking about what the Holy Spirit starts talking to you, and you're like, man, I feel really guilty about that. I feel some sort of conviction. Why did I do that? What, you know, this is what the Bible says, this is what the spirit's telling me. And so, I think he's kind of he's trying to bring that in, that sin may bring pleasure at that moment, but in the end it doesn't bring happiness. Right. You know, it only brings death and turmoil. Well, you talk about this a lot, too, Ryan. Like, I'll read this statement, and this is kind of an observation, but it says, "The brutal psychological conflict in a man's mind is not a sign of spiritual failure, it's evidence of a spiritual pulse. A dead man doesn't struggle, only a living man feels the weight of the chains." So, as I was as I'm reading this, you know, it's it's kind of almost like a Christian's perspective, because you've been given life. But for somebody who is spiritually dead, the the gospel message and the Ten Commandments specifically are maybe the very first thing that challenges their perspective to get them thinking about something different. Yeah. I'm going to go back to a Jake Winkler thing today, where he was talking about an ancient society that basically it was Nineveh that really worshipped um war and evil and impaling people and all of these things. Well, if you have somebody that comes in and says, "None of this is good. You're sinful." And it's for the first time that they're hearing this, then it gives them that conflict where they have to think through it. So, I guess kind of bringing this back to what Paul says, you know, he's really saying, um did that which is good then bring death to me? By no means, it was sin producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and so forth. So, I guess my my main observation here is just um this is absolutely critical. I could even see in, you know, in in our environment, the Christian principles, I think culturally are really well known. But in a lot of these places, they weren't necessarily. This may have been the first time you're being exposed to how radical this is, and that's what exposes you to to not being spiritually dead, to thinking about these questions, to having life, hopefully, come to your doorstep. >> Well, that's what the law brings. The law brings that set of morality Right. to an unmoral immoral time. And so, I I the way that I look at it is just like, all right, now my eyes are open to what God calls righteous. And now I know what that is, whether I'm a believer or not a believer, cuz like, if I'm not a believer, and my eyes aren't open to that beauty of what the what the law is, then me going back and having an adulterous relationship isn't going to feel bad to me. Right. You know, it's just going to feel I'm this is this is just a normal man type thing that I do anyways. And so, but when you once you have that law, and once you know what God calls righteous, that's when conviction steps in. And it's not con- And we'll go into eight, it's not condemnation, it's conviction. And then through that conviction there's what? Sanctification. Mhm. I know we haven't gotten through this, but I just wanted this just lines up, and I think we need to remember who the audience was and what Paul's mission in this letter. You brought it up last week, Kyle, that you got to remember that some of this was just just read as a whole. And so, this is something that put together just thinking through this as we're studying, but it's Paul wrote Romans around AD 57, and there's some context here that you can make arguments different ways, but this is just for for the basis of trying to understand his theme here. Around AD 57 from Corinth, addresses a mix of Jewish and Gentiles congregation in Rome. So, they had a mixed congregation around AD 49, Emperor Claudius had expelled Jews from Rome. Uh that you look that in Acts 18:2. When they returned under Nero, tension exists between Gentile believers who had led the church in their absence and returning Jewish believers who expected uh continuity with their traditions. So, he's got these churches that the turmoil really is he's got two different belief sets that are warring against each other, the the belief set that pays more attention to the flesh, the one that pays more attention to the spirit, and he's trying to commingle these in together, not for the sake of I just want to make people get along. He realizes that there is a major um gap in his teaching here that he he needs to address and make sure clarifies some things that he's taught earlier, cuz people were trying to insert some beliefs into some of his other teaching, and so he's using this to really flesh out this idea where you had talked before about the person asking the questions holds the power in the conversation. You see Paul knew this, because he gives statements, and then he is the first one to ask the question. He's setting the question up for what he knows will be the question after his last statement. And so, you see this maturity even as a a pastor as as his evangelistic work continues, to where he has matured to understand, when I say something, people tend to take that a certain direction, and so I'm going to cut them off. I'm going to ask the question I know they're going to ask, and I'm going to break into that. And so, uh we see that here. Good stuff. While y'all were you keep going. I'm like neck deep in something we were talking about last week, so I I may not even like I may be too outside of what we're talking about this week, but please go ahead. >> is probably not that big of a thing. Is this Is this a >> cloud output? No, this is something I've been working through Perplexity on, if I'm allowed to say. >> Okay, got you. >> We do not have an official AI robot sponsor of the show, and so yeah, go ahead, you can say whatever >> know Logos has an AI tool? So, I I was wondering about that. >> Yes, but I haven't been able to use it super successfully. Oh, you have it? Okay. So, I may need to like do a tutorial. >> I used it super successfully. Okay. Yeah. So, Perplexity, one thing I really like about is I can use it to log into my other things and give it my other resources, and I was wondering if if Logos had a plug for that. You know, like these other some of these other deals are >> Plug Logos into your Perplexity. >> this to where they can be used by some of this, and If they don't If they don't, they will shortly. >> one thing I really like about is I can use it to log into my other things and give it my other resources, and Yeah, a little bit, cuz Sprawl was talking about like carnal Christians. Yeah. >> Like how we have carnal Christians, and then you have I think it he he didn't he didn't bring it up. I think it might be like a perfectionist thing that came through John Wesley. But there is carnal Christians, and then there's Christians who are like came to like the second revelation or something like that. And he kind of comes back and beats back against that in that Paul's saying here that we're we're basically all carnal Christians. Like we're still going to deal with a carnal like a carnal um we're still going to have flesh. And that's what we have to weed through and that's where with the spirit helps sanctify us. So, he he kind of goes back against it that there's not this second layer of uh perfectionism that you can get in regard to spirituality, which we'll probably get a little bit deeper getting past 14. But, I just feel like when you read this, it's kind of showing like "Hey our flesh we're still going to have to to fight our flesh even after we we believe." And I think he's really bringing that up. Well, just go ahead and uh read 15 and then we'll keep that discussion going, Ryan. Read 14 to 15 or Uh just read cuz we just read 13 and 14, so let's just read. Yeah, let's read 15. Okay. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not know what to do I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing that I hate. And so, I don't know that there's a more common human experience than this. Where you look at something you've done, something you've said, a way you've acted and went almost like in an out-of-body way, how did I just do that? Right? And like under what circumstances like I remember um gosh, this would have been uh yesterday where uh you know, boys who are five and four, right? And so, they're not always going to do the things that you say or in the the speed or with whatever, you know, conviction and gusto you want them to do it. And at one point, I just like, you know, like I'm trying to get their attention, so I just slam my hand on the the on the woodwork to make a loud enough noise cuz I can't really yell with uh post two vocal cord surgeries. And you know, the smack of making that loud noise kind of startled both of them. And then I gave them the reprimand, which is what they needed, right? But, it was just it just ramped the entire situation up to a place it didn't need to go based on the input that I was getting from the children. But, I brought my own frustration to the situation that I can't yell, I can't talk in a way like it's very like honestly it's honestly goodness it's very frustrating that like I'm so thankful that I have the ability to talk, that I can talk for long periods of time because, you know, we were joking off air about how this seat right next to me used to be the most important seat in the room, not my seat, because when my voice would give out, I would have to write a little note and slide it over to the person to my right saying, "I can't really talk. I need you to kind of take over." But, here I am, I'm able to talk, but it's so frustrating when I can be at a restaurant or in our Sunday school class, people can't hear me across the table. And I hate you know, repeating myself and I I hate that people can't hear me or understand me. So, I brought all that frustration and everything to a situation that really didn't require me to get their attention in such an aggressive way. And I was immediately sitting here with I don't want to do that. Like I don't want to be that guy. I don't want to be that dad. I don't want to be the dad that scares his kid and gets them upset for absolutely no reason. I don't want to be the dad that treats a situation that's a two out of 10 like a 10 out of 10, so that when a 10 out of 10 happens, the kid just, you know, maps it in their brain as being just as important as the two out of 10. And yet you just sit there and I'm like, "I'm doing the very thing that I hate." And like that's just such a common experience for all of us. I I just want to ask you one thing. Uh which is the most important seat now? You know, I mean you just made it very clear. I'm no longer I'm I'm not in the most important seat anymore. >> seat and uh the last person to sit in that seat had golf up on their phone. And so, I would say the least [laughter] popular, the least important seat is probably the one nearest to me. So, it's probably yours. So, I'll get back to you with which one's the most important of uh seat two, three four >> to to bring it back to what you were saying, my the easiest way for me to see that is obvi- I mean, the easiest thing, that's why God gave us marriage is, you know, we're we are going through this relationship where we see so many faults of ourselves whenever we look back at things. And so, you know, I I definitely see that at times when you know that you've had a stressful day and you kind of already know that man, this is all the scenarios are there. It's It's like watching a a weather day in May in Oklahoma. It's like they've been predicting, you know, for three or four days that on a Thursday that all the ingredients are going to be just right for a huge tornado. And you're sitting there and that kind of happens with me to where I'm I'm actively aware that the way things are right now when I'm about to walk in, things are set up and all the ingredients are there. And I'm telling myself I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to do it. This is not going to I'm not going to let this control me. I'm going to, you know, do this a different way. And then about 5 10 minutes in, you realize you're right in the situation that you had completely told yourself that you were going to not be in. And it is so frustrating. I mean, I just wrote in this whole passage um honesty of the Bible. I mean, you just have Paul here just being so honest to say, "This is just the condition of flesh." And he's being honest for him. This again is in the first person singular. He switched to the first person singular in Romans 7. So, that that is the big that's the big question in all this part is is this Paul speaking about the current self, the past self, or the human condition? That's why this section's so controversial. >> Pre-conversion or post-conversion is like really where the argument lies. >> Well, yeah. That That would be current self versus past self. But, I mean there's the same argument that people make towards he is taking on the condition of non non um not non-belief, but the general audience of people that are in that situation. I don't really fall or fall on that line of things, but Where do you guys fall on this? Do you think it's pre-conversion or post-conversion? I I really don't know. I think it's post-conversion. Yeah, I I can't see the definitive argument for pre-conversion because he's talking in the first person plural or first person singular and he's using similar language to whenever he describes the thorn that's in his flesh. And he's never talking about the thorn in his flesh in the past tense. We have no evidence that the thorn in his flesh ever passed. And then and then just your current lived experience. Yeah. Right? So, I mean you obviously looked into a little bit more. So, the people that are arguing for that he's talking about pre-conversion It's called perfectionists. >> So, okay. So, so let me look at my notes here, but like John Wesley was a big one that kind of pushed out the perfectionist movement. And it's a belief that top perfectionism a second grace. So, holy holiness churches are kind of what were brought about with this. Um believed in a second work. So, like once you became a believer, you were a carnal Christian, but then you could move to a more higher approach in what they call a second conversion in which you reach perfection in spirituality. So, While you're still here on this planet or are they talking about >> on this planet. Yes. And through that perfection of spirituality and you you kind of see this move throughout denominations. Like I grew up in a very charismatic uh uh denomination and where like once you started like getting the spiritual gifts, you've reached some sort of perfectionist area. So, Sproul actually talks about this where he actually ran into a couple of guys who were perfectionists and he would bring up this verse and they would be like, "Well, yeah, that was that was pre-conversion. Now, you know, Paul's reached this level." And he kind of like breaks apart their arguments, but he said there's two types of Christians. Those regenerated by Well, he doesn't say this is what perfectionists believes that there there are two types of Christians. Those regenerated by the Holy Spirit assisted in I have to read my writing. Uh assisted in the spirit through sanctific- sanctification. And then those who are truly filled with the spirit in a higher plateau and achieved holiness or perfect sanctification. So, they're saying that Paul has reached this holiness and perfect sanctification at this time and he's just talking about a past self. >> And you know who wouldn't even make that argument? Paul. >> Paul. Yeah, Paul wouldn't even make that argument. That's ridiculous. >> that's like people that have an idea of some figure that they hold in high esteem and they kind of have an idea of how things were and then all of a sudden it's revealed that that person had a diary during that period and they read the diary and they read that, you know, one of the big moments that this person thought was really calculated all that, they find out it was a mistake, you know, that just kind of fumbled into this deal. I think there's a little bit of bias that we have when we're reading about Paul that I think some people really have a struggle with some of the openness that he's giving here because I don't want to say they don't want somebody else to use that as license. I mean, really it comes from a good spot. They're reading this and they're saying, "Man, I could see where I know somebody that because Paul does this, they could just segment this part of scripture, not read on to what he says later, and they could try to use this as a license to be like, 'Well, Paul just says that like this this this is just the way it is, you know.' And And so, I think even like it's easy to be like, 'How could they believe that?' Most people get to something like that because they are trying trying to reconcile something with a preconceived notion that they have and they don't like how that works in there. And so, they they just amended it. >> Well, that's like the legalism argument that we talked about the last episode. It's like, you know, legalism was used for a gospel plus type thing. And now because it was bastardized so bad, now people on the other side will take it and when you actually point out actual sin, let's just legalistic idea. You know, that's just you're just using legalism to point out my sin. It's like, "No, that's what the Bible calls for." And so, you know, people will take what Paul said here like, "Hey, it might I actually had a family member that I actually discussed this because we were talking about, you know, they do they do a lot of stuff in regard to, you know, um like Christian speaking and stuff like that. And we were talking about some people who use Christian speakers who probably aren't the best Christian speakers because you know what they're doing in their life outside of what what they're doing on stage. You know, and so he was making the argument of like, you know, we're not perfect. Like even Paul says, you know, I sin. You know, I was like, yeah, we may sin, but Paul Paul's repentant of that sin. He he fights with it, but this person that we're trying to platform, like what are they doing in their real life? You know, like how are they doing this outside of the platform? And that's something that we have to take into account and we can't use that verse to say, you know what, that their means leads to a good end and it's like not really if you know, they're doing all this stuff in the background because like we talk about the uh Ravi Zacharias and all these other guys. Like, you know what, we didn't know what they were doing in their personal life, but how has that ruined some some walks along the way? Especially if we know that. I got a comment and then a question. Yeah. So I I think for me, what Paul talks about here is probably one of the more comforting things that's said in the Bible because it's so practically um human's not the right word, but like I can identify with it. It helps me to understand that Paul who literally did, you know, miracles and saw amazing things was going through the same types of things that I think about and deal with. It's amazing. When Joby first came here to to join us, he talked about you and just said that he really appreciated that you were being genuine and going deep and and talking about, you know, things that were meaningful in in your life and in I think he really encouraged all of us and I have never forgotten this. He said, "You've got to go deeper. You've got to talk about those things that have really been impactful for you personally. That's that's that's really what we identify with as humans." And I think Paul does this perfectly, you know, 2,000 years later, which is amazing. Random question. I'm going to ask it cuz I've struggled with this. Um charismatic Yeah. kind of background and all that. I was having a conversation here about a month ago with somebody in my family. They grew up in that kind of environment. And they're all talking about the prevalence of going to church and everybody speaking in tongues. So I just want to take a quick poll. Where do you guys stand on that? Where do you think this is currently happening in a genuine way in certain churches and it's and it's just normal? I mean, cuz I I know that I read about it and I see it, but I I have a feeling if I walked in and I was in that environment and it's as as prevalent as people talk about, I I would just be extremely skeptical. So what what do you >> So yeah, thanks for pulling the pin on the grenade. Um Yeah, I'll I'll I'll go first with this. So like I agree with people and I think Joby said it's like he doesn't see an expiration date on like you know, the spiritual gifts and stuff that's described in the book of Acts. This gets into the sensationalist arguments, different things like that. The one thing that I cling to is cuz obviously there are shysters and wolves in sheep's clothing that are using this to raise money for themselves and to ingratiate themselves and all those different things. When we go back to the Tower of Babel, when all their languages were confused, people were confused by a language that existed that they did not know. Okay? So if you two were to start speaking uh French right now, uh you would quickly get beyond the two years of French that I took in high school and I would be confused by your language, but your language exists. Let me tell you what does not exist. THAT DOESN'T EXIST. That's gibberish. That's nonsense. And so we see from a lot of these different people that are praying in tongues right? They're praying in They're not praying in a language, right? They are just I'm going to put some random syllables and sounds together and then I'm just going to spit it out there either in this worship service or into a microphone at this crusade or some sort of event like that. And so for me, it's really almost hard, Zach, for me to even evaluate whether or not speaking in tongues has ceased happening because the overwhelming amount of people that we see, again, this is happening all the time without cameras rolling, but the overwhelming amount of examples we see of people using this and it's clearly not speaking in tongues the way that is described here in the Bible. That's that's where I would land on it basically. I think I [clears throat] I just want to clarify something or or maybe it won't be maybe it'll be contentious cuz don't believe it, but from my understanding of the scripture, there are different versions of of the tongues. And so like um Let me let me say this. I do not see anywhere in the scripture that we are to base someone's gifting This is where I'll start with the problem then I'll move back. The problem I have with it is whenever there is a basing of whether or not someone has the Holy Spirit based off of whether or not they are speaking in tongues. That Performative. Yeah, that is the problem I have with it. Now, I also would classify this in the same scenario of at sometimes, maybe this is a little extreme, but I've said it before about Calvinism versus Arminianism and to my brothers and sisters there in a charismatic church where they speak in tongues, if if you are assured of your spiritual your spirituality, the gifting of the spirit in doing that and that is something that brings you closer in relationship to the Lord, I don't think I don't think that I am in a position to I'm not your pastor, I'm not your shepherd. I don't think I'm in a position to stop stop you um and and to pull you away from that. However, like to what you were saying, um I do think there is conceptually a little bit difference in the Bible. There is the talk about you have people that spoke in tongues that were interpreted. And so there's some rub there on do you have an interpreter? That's a a big deal. But to the idea that there is a language that if it's not falling within the tongues language, there is scripture in the Bible that talks about the groaning of the Holy Spirit. That that I think that there are people that say that there is a prayer tongue um that is more of a groaning of our spirit and an interpretation by uh by the Holy Spirit. So somebody would have to check me on where that where that scripture is, but it does talk about >> you right now. There there is something there about that we groan in our spirit and that the Holy Spirit um can can take that interpret that. So that wouldn't be a language. I mean, whenever I think of groaning, I literally think of when someone is just poured out past the point of words and is just their soul is is crying out. I think that's what the context of that scripture is. first letter from Paul to the church in Corinth, so there's several references in 1 Corinthians 14. Um so we'll skip around a little bit, but 1 Corinthians 14:5, "Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues unless someone interprets." Mhm. Then in verse 13, "Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret." And then at 27 and 28, "If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at the most three and in each turn and let someone interpret. But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God." So when you're seeing these videos of people, there's usually not one person habbity bobbity. It's usually a whole bunch of people while Aunt Lucy's falling out in the aisle of Iowa, one guy's running on top of the pews. And so it's just it's absolute chaos. [clears throat] >> think that if that was led by the spirit, the spirit would also be leading them in discernment on how to handle that situation. But I'm curious, Ryan, did you find the context for the prayer groaning? I haven't found the context for it. I have multiple I don't I don't have an actual verse. What I have is actually books in regards to it. >> Okay. And so >> And your personal experience. Yeah, it's And what you brought up is exactly what I kind of grew up with. There was multiple factors. Um and I'm very very I'm I'm a soft sensationalist. And uh I like to tread very carefully with this because I do have >> sensationalist? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, um I I I I feel like America is out of the apple apostolic age because Christianity has boomed so much. But like when we talk about the Middle East or maybe even Eastern Europe or places like that, I think the spirit the apostolic spirit could still roam um there. Um but I'm very I'm because of how I grew up, I have family members that are still very much a part of this, so I like to tread carefully. Um but I've also seen the harm it's done as well. Um when it comes to speaking in tongues, I've seen it both ways. I've seen people use it as a prayer language. Um that what that part makes more sense to me because I can't tell you growing up as as somebody in the charismatic movement um in the church, I remember being in uh Sunday school as a kid and them trying to teach me how to speak in tongues. But when you read about it, it's more of a gift. >> [laughter] >> Um in the past Can you actually Yeah, I've heard you say that same story, but give it a little bit more detail cuz I think this is a very important point. I mean, we were So man, this was like I was very very young. I was like I was like seven. Six We moved to Iowa when I was about eight or 9. So, I had to be about 6 or 7. And we were we were in our Sunday school and our church has always been kind of that spirit-filled type of church. I remember like walking over people like slain in the spirit in the sanctuary. You know, there's ladies covered with sheets because they were wearing dresses. You know, very very very charismatic almost Pentecostal to a point. Nobody danced with snakes, but I remember they brought us up and they were like they were like we're going to teach you how to speak in tongues, you know, and like they have a microphone up to your face and like like all I could think of was that pierogi commercial where they're like oishki boishki or something like that. And I'm like oishki boishki? And they're like, well, let let the spirit come through. And I was like, if this is a gift, why are you teaching me? >> Right. And like I remember they kind of looked at me and they told me to go sit down. How old were you? I was 6 or 7. >> 7, yeah. I have I have a friend who was engaged and he was a very faithful guy. I mean, great pillar in the church and kind of one of these guys that had grown older and just never found somebody and never got married. And I remember he he started this relationship with this girl and had a very godly relationship. She was coming to the church and there was a period of time after they got engaged that he went and met her family. They had some attendance at her church and it was decided that he needed to be able to speak in tongues for the family to give the blessing, you know, that he was actually filled with Holy Spirit and believer. And it was tragic to watch it play out because you saw this guy who had been waiting for love for a really long time finally find it and then it ended up they broke off the engagement and broke up because he he would not fake it. No, you can't fake it. >> And and and he just and I think that it wasn't the idea they were saying fake it. But I think there was the idea that he realized there was some level of for him there was some level of self-manipulation that he could get himself to Yep. Yep. to to make it happen. And you know, it was really sad because I think he tried to do what he's called to do in that he loved her. He saw himself as her future shepherd in that relationship. So, he tried to to lead her in this and say, I'm you know, I'm going to I'm going to show you what this looks like from my standpoint where I don't allow myself to do that, but I'm fully committed to the faithful living. And he tried. I mean, to his credit he did not walk into their congregation with this idea of like I'm never going to do this. I I remember I'm sharing a story where he was in tears about it because he wanted it so bad. And he just couldn't produce it. And so, you know, it it is stuff I I will say so the reference of what I was talking about on the prayer when when people talk about the prayer >> that when you're finished with that. is Romans 8:26-27. It says, "In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not what we do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit because the Spirit intercedes for God's people in accordance with the will of God. So, I'm not making that argument. I'm just saying there there are those that speak in tongues that there's several yeah, that use that as a personal prayer language that do believe like there are Christians that do believe that it should not be done if it's not interpreted, but that they that there are Christians that still groan in the spirit is what they call it. >> and when it comes to that and I've I've been through that before. Like there's been times where I've prayed and I just didn't have the words, but I was just sitting Mhm. and something like that. It's like, you could you see yourself speaking in tongues there? Like could I say I spoke in tongues? Maybe. You know what I'm saying? But the thing that it comes down to is just groans. It's like I don't have the words, but the Spirit groans within me. And the the scripture says the Spirit groans. >> problem the problem with that sometimes and how they've moved and how they've used that speaking in tongues is I remember something like it's your prayer language. It's the language that you pray in the spirit that the devil can't hear. And that's how it was presented you know, to me. You know, it's like, "Hey, this is a prayer language that the devil can't hear." And it's just like seriously. >> Yeah, you know, like but but but you brought up a big thing, manipulation. Yeah. When the problem with these spirit-filled churches is manipulation. >> Yeah. And I have a family member who's really like I said, we've grown up in that spirit-filled type of charismatic church and they kind of I've moved a different way. They were still on that trajectory and they've been at two churches here in Oklahoma. I won't bring them up by name. But they they use the spirit-filled stuff to manipulate their people. They told this person the one church that this person went to that I see a spirit of infirmary over your family. You're not giving enough to the church that they put a spirit of infirmary over your family. Like that's what they were they didn't think that they were giving enough money, tithing enough money, and they were told that they had a spirit of infirmary over their family. Manipulation. And then the other church that they went to their daughter was in a camp and the pastor's wife comes up to her and goes, "I see secret sin on you. You need to tell me what that secret sin is now." Like if you see secret sin if your eyes are open by the Spirit to say this person sinned, you would know what that sin is and you would you would come and talk to them about it. >> with everybody. >> Yeah, you can do that with any human being. >> And so, yeah, you could do that with any human being, but that's how this person >> on the way here. >> was manipulating a child >> Right. to open up about her sin. Why? Because they want control. Yeah. And that's the problem that we have to look out at with these spirit-filled churches and because I've seen it and I've lived it. I've I've seen a family member walk away from the faith because they went to a spirit-filled church that was teaching people how to be prophets. You know, like look at Bethel's supernatural ministry or whatever. Like they have a school for it where they teach you to be a prophet. Like this is a gift that's given by the Holy Spirit. You can't teach >> we did have it because I do see like I think Paul's the one that talks about it at one point where he he uses it for the circumcision deal to say like who are we to say like cuz when they were baptized, they were received the spirit of tongues. And so like I I wish that there that it was still something that I could just like be like, "Oh, yeah, that's it. That's you know." And so, I don't know. I have to think about it. >> that you guys just described is is is what I was thinking. I mean, it feels a little bit manipulative. I think we It seems like we all agree that there's space for this genuinely from a from a biblical perspective. The way that I would envision this happening would be that, you know, somebody's truly overcome and it's probably interpreted or something, but it's it's not happening all the time. But thankfully it came all the way back to Romans 8, so the grenade at least is relevant to what we're talking about. But thanks for sharing. Well, when even as we get cuz we're going to um start continue going through Romans 7. When you get to the end, this would have been after what you just read Russ late in Romans 8. We're going to be getting into 28 through 39 of Romans 8, which is really the doctrine of sanctification. And so, there doesn't necess- well if it's a doctrine of sanctification, you have to okay, why does there need to be a doctrine for the subject matter? And then what is the definition of that subject matter, which I think is applicable to this discussion now because I've been told by people that sanctification is a happening. It's an occurrence, not a process. And I'm like that that no. Like of course not. Like cuz then that would imply No. the perfectionism argument that Ryan was making earlier that was even possible to be perfected this side of glory which would lead to the question of if it's possible on this side of glory to reach perfection why do we need the gospel? What's the point? >> the game at that point. I there's something I I got to get this out on this idea before we get too far from it just cuz I think it will come back later on. But I just wanted to bring up in 14 for it says, "For we know that the law is spiritual, but I uh I am of the flesh, sold under sin." Which was really hard like I I sat on that little piece like sold under sin, sold under sin. Why am I sold under sin? That make any sense? Um and this will come in later on something that and today I was studying some of this stuff and just this was really impactful towards it and he'll bring it back up in eight. But uh Josh Howerton Howerton um did a podcast and I wish I knew which number this was, but it was ranking Bible translations, which ones to avoid in it. If you go to like minute 19 um he talks about this idea of let me look at that this idea it's on my other page of the kinsman redeemer and about the idea that Kinsman redeemer? >> Yeah, that whenever yeah, kinsman redeemer. Whenever things are sold back then that the scroll one was sealed and one was open and like for property this idea that you had two two chains of ownership to something and one was the chain of ownership through the inherited right or the original person right, which if you've studied anything about the year of Jubilee, there's a lot that goes in that. And then one was the chain of ownership through through the um through the sold right of the open side of the contract. And so anyways, it's going to come a lot more in whenever we get into eight, but it is mentioned here and so I just want to point it out that whenever he's talking about this, he's already brought up the idea that something about him was sold or kind of like sold out from under his power through sin because he was under sin and anyways, it just made sense with this idea that like contractually in that original covenant, what he's been talking about is that he thought that by being in that covenant and understanding the law that could help him, but it just made him realize that his he's already forfeited. Like the law has just made him realize that he's sold off. You know, and there's a transfer of ownership. That's what's, you know, a whole part of this is okay, there's someone else that owns what is being discussed in this exact moment. He owns this sin. Yeah. I have that story about Sproul. >> Go for it. I I just want to read it. So, he goes, "A young man, 17 years old, whom I met when I was doing graduate work in the Netherlands. He was an American student from Texas studying exchange studying as an exchange student in Holland. I was coaching baseball there and since he was playing baseball, I had a chance to step beside him. He had come from a holiness church and he told me he had arrived at perfection or he had told me when he had arrived at perfection. When I began to discuss with him the teachings of Romans 7, he was quick to use the standard response that Paul was not speaking in the present tense. I bullied this poor soul by bringing out the Greek New Testament and pointing out the passage upon passage where Paul clearly was speaking in the present tense about his present condition. I told him that the sentiments that the apostle expresses in Romans 7 are those that we do not find in unregenerate that we do not find in unregenerate people. And such as his love for the law and his great desire to please God. After a lengthy discussion, I was finally able to convince him that in fact Paul was talking about his present condition. This is a part that blew me away. I assumed the debate with the young man was over and I asked, "What do you think now about your assessment that you have reached the level have you reached that level of perfection?" He said, "I am sad to hear that the apostle had not made it." Mhm. I said, "Do you really believe that at the age of 17 you achieved a higher level of sanctification than Paul had reached at the time that he wrote his magnum opus to the church of Rome?" He looked me straight in the eye and he said, "Yes, I am more sanctified at my age than Paul was when he wrote to Rome. Okay. Well, it just kind of blew me away. That, you know, like I I feel like like this is the problem with us not realizing like who we are and what creatures we are. You know, like we're a created being. You know, by a holy God and that we think that we on our own. Cuz he believes this on his own. He reached this sanctification based upon things. Like we okay. >> who informed that So, he's either a megalomaniac, right, who came to this realization of his level of sanctification all on his own or someone provided him the scaffolding for that belief to begin with. >> Well, that's where we would come back. We'd have to do the history on John Wesley. So, that's where the holiness church kind of came a part of was John Wesley's teachings. >> One of the again, I'm I'm not as uh >> Who knows who bastardized teachings though, too. So. >> I'm not as versed on that as as you would be or someone else maybe listening to this, but what we can what we can definitely see is what most what most of these groups will do is they will start putting you on a pathway by classes, uh certifications, certain levels of things that you have to go through, hoops to jump through, and then they will assign you a title based on what you've accomplished, right? So, think of it as a more structured version of what someone would do with like Awana, right? But within Awana, it's basically you are this age now, you're in this grade, so you have a new name. You're a Puggle or you're a, you know, whatever. And so, I think that that's very important, but for a lot of these people, it comes back to their works, which are what before a holy God? Filthy rags, used menstrual cloths before before God, right? That is that is what the that is what that's being described there. Is that is what your works are before a holy and just God. And think about the the the process of sanctification. And this is potentially up for debate. Now, I mean, we're kind of winding to a close here, but this is potentially up for debate. So, is the process of sanctification something that we can expedite or arrive at or or any of those types of things I've talked about before. I had years of delayed sanctification. I felt like I became a Christian, was, you know, on fire, did all the reading, blah blah blah. Eventually, you know, horseshoe back around to the beginning of the Old Testament, got bogged down in Deuteronomy, and then, you know, here you're kind of wandering for a while, right? No mentorship, no discipleship, no personal, you know, vim or verve or study in a particular direction. And so, it's like you can do things to increase your level of understanding, but here's the debate. Can you do things to become more sanctified or does God already have you on a timeline of he knows your days, he knows they're numbered, and he knows when you're where you're going to be at conversion versus when you were taken to glory? I don't know. This might be this might sound wrong. It might sound heretical. I I don't know, but I don't think there's like a certain level of sanctification. I think sanctification is just something we live out through conviction. So, I don't know if I'm ever going to reach this high level of sanctification where I'm never going to sin. I think I've reached sanctification when I do something that is unrighteous and I can recognize it and repent >> quote. >> Yeah, and repent and move and and move to, you know, what what is the right thing to do. So, I don't think I'm going to reach this thing of holiness or this thing of great righteousness because the only way I've reached this great righteousness is through Christ. It's not through me. It's through Christ. I can do I could never hit this sanctification this kid thinks he's hit, but I know when I die why I'm here and why I'm going to be able to come in is not through my righteousness, but through Christ's righteousness. And that's what's going to clothe me. Well, think about the application of the John MacArthur quote, what you've said and I've said and and a lot of people have said, which is you will you know, the longer you've been a Christian, if you're basically if you're doing it right, you will sin less and you will feel worse about it, right? That is a pretty good description, a real world description of what sanctification even is. Yeah. You your awareness of sin will be so much higher. You will have, you know, through the work of God killed certain parts of of your spirit that used to dominate you, but they're always still there, right? Because again, Satan has all of our game film, so he knows what's going to what's going to hit us. For some people, the draw is to the chemical. For some people, the draw is lust. For some people, the draw is power. And you may, you know, sanctify some of those portions of your life. You may try to kill that old guy that, you know, oh, that's the old me. You like, I've killed the old me. No, man, old me's not dead yet. He's on the ground unconscious, [clears throat] but he has not had his life snuffed out from him yet. >> back up sometimes. >> but yeah, that's the thing is I I agree that this idea that any of us can be sun come so sanctified that even in our mental state, go back to what we talked about last week with coveting, right? You could be sitting here coveting right now, no one knows it. We've got plenty of eyeballs looking at you. We've nice cameras and lenses that are recording us. And here you are coveting and no one knows anything about it, right? So, you could seem sanctified and not actually be sanctified, but to be purified to the point of perfection means that you are no longer existing here on this planet. Or you don't need Christ. You've done it all on your own. >> You wouldn't need him to begin with. Yeah. So, final thoughts from from you guys. >> Oh, okay. We started this a little bit late and >> till the next episode. >> Okay. Yeah, cuz we're this is going to be an actual good place to stop before we get into 16 next week. This is in line with this. I just wanted to read these cuz I think we're kind of bouncing around that like maybe there's not one that we fall in on some of these, but you have positional, which is past at the moment of the salvation. So, this is about sanctification. So, you're either positional at the moment of salvation, you are declared holy before God. This is sometimes called definitive sanctification. You are set apart by God. So, like it's kind of like it's said and done, which does align with what you were kind of struggling with on the idea of like is there levels of it or is it just sanctified or not? That would kind of play into that as well. Progressive means present, ongoing daily transformation of your character, desires, and conduct to align more with God's will. This is cooperative work. The spirit works in you and you actively respond in obedience to the calls of I meant this calls of the sanctification. And then there's glorification, the final and complete sanctification that occurs when believers are resurrected and fully perfected in the presence of God. Each of these have their context to where they have scripture that backs up the idea from them. But the way we see them like a lot of theological stuff, we'd like to compartmentalize and be like, well, that works. That works. I got to be here. But to just kind of wrap that up, I mean, there's all those all those things. I could look at all those and be like, yes, yes, yes. Yeah. And I could also look at all those and be like, uh uh uh. You know, there's little pieces to them. But the main thing is are we in are we in line to to fully be able to say I'm a person that cares about the sanctification of my soul not because that it wins me the prize, but because I'm excited that I am a part of the bride ship of Christ and I want to be presented to him in a way that says I appreciated what you did. I appreciated that you put me here and let me uh feel the sanctification that you that you graced me with. All right, guys, very good. We're going to leave it there. We're going to come back here next week where we are going to start in Romans 7:16. So, come ready to hear from us on that. But, before I let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost. Undaunted Life for Mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. 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The music on this podcast is the song Conqueror by the Christian metal band Void Awakened. Be sure to stream their music on Spotify, Apple Music, and wherever else you get your music. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience, keep seeking the lion of Judah. Void Awakened. >> [music] [music]