Hey guys, real quick. So, I've talked to men literally all across the globe about where they're missing the mark and how they want to improve. They normally talk about how they wish they were in better shape, they wish they had a better relationship with their loved ones, they wish they had more success and influence at work and some other stuff like that. But, here are some of the most common and biggest things that I hear. I wish I knew more about the Bible. I wish I could lead my family spiritually. I wish I could recall more scripture. I wish Bible study wasn't such a struggle. Well, guys, I've got news for you. You don't have to keep wishing. It's time for you to start doing. It's time for you to stop wasting your time and money on stuff that has no eternal value whatsoever. I keep hearing you talk about how you want to be more biblically literate and spiritually resilient, and now is your chance to prove that you mean it. That's why I want you to take advantage of our partnership with the most powerful Bible software on planet Earth, Logos. So, Logos approached me about putting something together for the Undaunted Life-ers out there, and we collaborated to create something I'm super pumped about, the Undaunted Life Study Bundle. So, here's the skinny on the bundle. There are over 200 individual resources, and they include titles from authors like Voddie Bauckham, Charles Spurgeon, R.C. Sproul, John MacArthur, Matt Chandler, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, William Lane Craig, Paul Washer, John Stott, Doug Wilson, Paul David Tripp, J.I. Packer, and a whole bunch more. And there are so many helpful resources in there. There's Bibles, commentaries, Old and New Testament study guides, devotionals, systematic theologies, courses dictionaries histories encyclopedias, non-fiction books, and more and more and more. And here's the most insane part about this deal. If you were to buy each individual resource by yourself inside of Logos, it would cost you over $3,000. $3,000. But, if you get the Undaunted Life Study Bundle, you'll get all 200-plus resources for just $349.99. Guys, that's $3,000 worth of stuff for 350 bucks. Guys, that's almost 90% off. And you know that you waste more than that on the hobbies that you have right now all the time, and these won't help you with your discipleship and sanctification journeys, right? It's time to get real and take control of your Bible study and spiritual development. Click the link in the show notes for this episode. If you want the link, it's logos.com /undauntedlife. That's www.logos.com/undauntedlife or the link in the show notes. It's super easy to sign up. Again, go to the show notes and click the link or go to logos.com/undauntedlife. Sign up for Logos and get the Undaunted Life Study Bundle right now. This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. Welcome back to the Forging Table. The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. At the Forging Table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience by digging into God's word, and we're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with us. That's Caleb, that's Ryan, that's Winkler. Now, you are wearing less clothes than you were last week. What is going on, Ryan? >> It's really warm in here. >> It's really warm. Or or is it that you wanted the [ __ ] sure shirt? Do you know I >> Do you know I wear this shirt like >> prominent Yeah, I know. Of all the people that I knew, like I should have got you two of them, right? So you could do like a cut-off shirt one, and then you could do like a normal one. >> lose weight so I can wear it. >> Right, cuz I told you I already told you no more to Is that idea? I told you cuz you asked me years ago when I got you an Undaunted shirt. You know where this is going. You shut up. You shut your mouth. Shut your mouth. I'll get to you. But I But he he asked for a 2X and I said, "No." And he was like, "Wait, what?" I'm like, "No, you won't wear 2X's." I said, "You want to lose weight, right?" I'm like, "All right, I will get you XL's." Like, you don't get to get 2X's, right? I'm not going to spend three more dollars on your shirt so that you can have a comfortable 2X. You have to have an XL. So, Jacob, uh question. >> Sorry, Jake. >> Uh we've talked about this before and we've talked about the artillery that goes off whenever you work out on the treadmill and how Lady Weiglar has come and check on you. Ba bam ba bam ba bam. Um do you think if I said, "Hey, no more 6X shirts. I got to get you 6X's. Five X and below." Do you think that that would have an impact? >> I could deal with a 5X and below now. >> size do you wear? >> Uh it depends on It depends on the shirt. >> You're a 3X. >> Or Or Origin D. What do you wear? >> 2X. >> Really? Okay. So, like >> I like to wear uh XL XXL or whatever. >> Not 2X. I I heard XXL and 2XL are two different sizes. I'm not I'm not saying >> I'm It's 2X's. >> L or XXL. >> I'm told it's different. >> It's by who? >> By Academy. >> By What? That's not even THAT'S NOT EVEN A PERSON. IT'S THE SAME size no matter what they print on the tag. It means the same thing. >> Because like I have these 2XL shirts that like look like I look like a gangster when I wear them. Like I'm like Notorious B.I.G. Like it's just really big. >> Oh, yeah. >> And then I'll get like I'll get like a >> Well, every brand cuts them a little different. >> Oh, yeah. >> Or Origin 2 I That's one of the reasons I love their shirts. Like if you're a big guy, you should totally be buying your shirt t-shirts at Origin because they actually make them like if you're a 2X, you don't have like a lot of times when I get shirts, they I get a 2X, but they're like they come just down below my like belt. Like they're really really short. >> Yeah. >> But >> So, you get a little Shania Twain going on every time you wave at somebody. >> My wife gets mad about seeing my butt crack when I wear XLs. She's like >> But >> I love the idea of Jake rifling through I mean Ryan rifling through all the XXL shirts looking FOR A 2X. >> IT'S TRUE. >> OH MY GOD. >> IT'S TRUE. IT'S AMAZING. >> IT IS GREAT. >> HEY, I'm looking I'm doing I'm pulling a Jake. >> Okay. >> It's true. >> That's okay. Yeah. Uh if you don't get the joke, Jake loves looking at himself. That's why he sits next to me from now on. So he's shrinking me over here in the camera. But what >> Can I point out one thing? >> Of course. >> This is four and four with the clock. >> This might be Ryan the first time in the history of the Forging Table where this stupid unbelievably apparently difficult timer to work. That is four weeks in a row where we didn't have to do like some sort of inside joke about how bad the timer thing is and yet here we are still mentioning it. But you also mentioned something else. >> It's uh >> before this recording. You said hey here's cuz you know what what do we have? We got Jaco Hydrates, we got Jaco Goes, we got Macallan 18, shout out to Lady Boyd. You know, we've got all these things. We got our laptops, we got our Bibles, we got you know, we got all these things. But apparently all that wasn't good enough going into this recording cuz you requested something else. Do you remember? >> Oh, the knife? >> No, not the knife. >> I want the knife. >> The knife is for later. >> Okay. I was like I would use a cool knife. >> But you requested you're like oh you know what we really could use before this last recording some smelling salts, right? >> salts. >> But like I like last time we did this during the last batch or whatever, like I So when you when you open it up and you like pop the seal or whatever like it just doesn't end up like like working at all. So like this is So this is the old bag that we had and so like I thought if I kept it like in this like little ziplocky thing that it would be fine. And so the last time I thought oh cuz we had someone on I forget who it was they never done it before. So here we are. We're shaking this thing up and then okay and then we put it on our nose and we hit it and it's like it's kind of there but not there. >> It hits a little bit if you don't have nose hairs. >> Yeah and so if if anyone doesn't know exactly what the name of this smelling salt is, Ryan, if you'll go and give IT TO US. THAT'S THE NAME OF THE SMELLING SALTS. AND so Jake, I felt a a particular responsibility to you that I didn't give you the FULL THE FULL AND SO WHAT I DID WAS >> OH, NO. >> I went ahead and bought some more. >> Oh. >> And it is still it is still in the packaging. No, I'm not going to turn my address towards the thing that I'll need y'all sending me like photos of your feet or whatever. And shout out to Dawson, we got the Shepherd knife right here. Check this thing out. You want to talk about survivalist knife. And so here's the thing though. >> Have you done this, Caleb? >> The first Okay. >> Caleb has done this multiple times. >> Caleb is very very uncomfortable right now and I'm very excited about it. Okay. >> It's cuz he's sitting next to me. >> But here's the thing. The first time I did this years ago, the first time I did this, I'm in my truck and I pull out my pocket knife at a red light and I go to open up the mailer because basically there's there's the bottle that is sealed. It's got plastic around it. It's in the Juji Mufu you know, packaging or whatever. And then they shove that in the mailer. And so what I do is I open the bag with my pocket knife and I accidentally puncture the bag that the bottle the sealed bottle is in. No big deal. Sealed bottle, right? I had to roll down all the windows on my truck. I could barely breathe because I accidentally put a little into the package. So I'm going to be very careful and as I delicate cuz there's two of them in there. There's two more in here. >> Don't be around Caleb when he's skinning a deer. >> Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Might get after it. All right. So we got a little bit. I'm being very very careful here. All right. Okay, we're good. We can still breathe. All right. So being careful here. >> Is it a package thing? Hopefully Oh, you got two? >> Two of them. We're only going to do one. I'm going to keep this back. So here is ah, it's actually ridiculous. That's what it says right there. And so what we're going to do, we're going to do a little comparison, a little taste test if you will. We're going to do the old one first and then we're going to do the new one. So you're going to have You're going to have to do one cuz here's the thing, you want to take the top off and go ahead and put it under your nose. Keep your eyes closed. Not that close. Cuz look, like that's how that's how non-pungent these are, but I want you to put your nose near >> I'm not doing that. I don't have nose hairs. >> I know that. Okay, alopecia guy. All right, so there's the There's the bad one. There's the old one. All right, we'll put a little >> Let's do this. >> Go ahead. >> All right, Caleb, go ahead. Wait. Wait, wait, so All right, so hit Yeah, hit the old one. Hit the old one. >> See, that's what he did with the old one. >> Oh, Caleb. >> That don't That's why I put you in that seat, so you wouldn't go Ralph City. See? It's There's not a whole lot to it. Right? You can get a nice >> I got it pretty close. >> Smells Smells terrible. >> like a what I put on my steak. >> And what's What do you put on your steak? >> IT WASN'T VERY WASN'T YEAH. Wasn't very Smells like salt. >> All right, guys, I'm just going to tell you right from the beginning. >> This one doesn't smell good. >> new bag of >> doing that. I'm a little worried. >> The last one >> Not not like I just did. >> All right, so here we go. Here we go. >> Not smelling like I do my bourbon. If you do that, then Stacy's going to have to go check on you. >> to fall I'm going to fall over. >> Yeah, but you're right. Last time the bottle was sweaty in there and then it like got everywhere. >> Yeah. >> Okay, bottle's not sweaty. Okay, SHOUT OUT TO AH! ALL RIGHT, SO UH KELSEY'S DOWNSTAIRS LIKE >> SHE'S PROBABLY LIKE, "What are they doing to her?" >> What are these rejects doing? Uh All right, so here we go. We got Got to take this plastic off. Caleb does not look psyched at all. All right. Oh my gosh, it's different. >> He's shaking it up, too. >> Hang on. I It Oh, did you hear it? It just went It just It was like when Jake sat in that chair. Um Like had a nice little cheek compression. That's a deep cut for all of you just fall smell it already. Oh. Okay. >> I can't smell it yet. >> Dude, it stinks the nostrils. >> You smell it already? Yes. >> Okay, so Caleb Caleb so listen to me. Now listen. Keep your eyes closed. >> You're going first, right? >> So no, you're going first. I'm going last. All right? But the last time Okay, you can go first. But the last time I opened up a fresh one for whatever reason and I did this off camera. So I didn't even get any of the fun of uh people being able to make fun of me. I for whatever reason I approached it like I approached an old one and I felt it in my brainstem. I was like, "What in the actual heck happened?" So >> Man, I still got it right up my nose and sniffed it like a bouquet of flowers. >> For real. You hit it the hardest out of everybody. >> I was like >> Okay. >> He got a pretty close. >> one. Get another one. Yeah. Get another one Jake. >> No, I'm good. Went right up there. >> Yeah, did he Did you put the top back on it if you're not going to hit it again? >> I feel like I'm already doing it. >> Okay. >> I only got it in the right nostril though. Uh it's a little stuffy. >> It it is shocking how hard it goes. >> I FEEL LIKE I FEEL IT IN MY FRONTAL LOBE. >> YEAH. YEAH. OKAY, THAT'S THE OLD ONE. >> OH MAN, that opens up the sinuses. >> Caleb All right, Caleb, you have your own camera, baby. So let's You're already defeated. >> Man, I feel like it just opened up a booger or something. >> All right, there we go. You have a hole in your nostril. >> OH, TOO CLOSE. OH DUDE, WAY TOO CLOSE. WAY TOO CLOSE. >> QUICK, HAVE SOME SCOTCH. QUICK, HAVE SOME SCOTCH. >> YOU OKAY? >> OH. >> YOU DIDN'T GET IT OUT. Did you get out? >> I couldn't breathe. >> Oh my god, why did you GO THAT I I TO WARN YOU. >> GO HARD OR GO HOME. >> LOOK AT HIS EYES. >> WAY TO GO, CALEB. >> HE'S CRYING. >> I DID THE same thing to you the other man. >> You got it way too close. You have to have the more of a subtle approach. >> Yeah, you got to You got to You got to fade it in. >> When I did this, guess who was sitting next to me? Pastor Jay. >> Pastor Pastor Jay. >> Yeah, Jay did it too, but Jay was a little bit more reserved than the Caleb. Bro, you look like you're about to cry. That >> I thought he had it way down here. I was like, "What was that?" >> Uh >> Uh now you know why. >> I tried to explain. Okay, here we go. >> Fade it all round it out. >> Fade in. >> Oh my gosh. >> Dude, Jay used to pop HIS HAND UP. >> OH MY GOSH. YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT'D BE LIKE A caramel onion. Remember me talking about the caramel onion? If anyone ever said it's Here's a caramel apple and it's caramel onion, I'm fighting the nearest >> going to do that to you. >> I'll fight a woman. That That now that's going to get clipped on the internet. Great. Thanks. All right, here we go. Okay. >> He's so bad, man. >> Let me see Let me see that. Let me see that. I need my My left nostril like feels lonely right now. So, let me have it. >> For me, it's my right. >> Oh god. I need a Kleenex. >> I feel like my nose is bleeding. >> need a Kleenex? >> There we go. >> I'll get you I got you. I got you. >> I feel better now. >> I'll take a hydrate while you're up. Need some of that for when I have colds. >> Talk about something. >> That was good, that was beautiful. >> Let's talk about the five points OF >> MY AWESOMENESS. >> A, YOU'RE BALD. >> YES. >> ALL BALD people are awesome. >> B, I have the voice of a gen of my generation. Like a cross between Bono and Fergie. >> Bono >> Low-key, Ryan >> Thank you. >> Ryan can't sing, actually. >> I can't I can't. >> You can sing. I did karaoke with Ryan. He was He was majestic. >> We actually I took on a translucent steed. >> Which one did we We sang one together. >> Oh, man. We sang 500 Miles. >> Yes. >> And then Dude, did you sing No with your daughters? >> I did. >> That was pretty awesome. That's pretty awesome. WHAT WERE YOU GUYS SINGING? >> I I TOLD MY daughters I needed to go up and sing Meghan Trainor's No, which was My name is No, my sign is No, my number is No. >> And the only 14-year-old boy there was like "Man everything's no." >> I have to show y'all something >> Yeah. >> that Adam Smith taught me. Cuz I get the hiccups very easily. >> Oh, yeah. >> That last hit of aah got me the hiccups. In my whole life, when I get the hiccups, I'll get I'll get them for 3 or 4 hours. >> Oh, my. >> Oh, wow. >> But Adam showed me a trick. If you get If I'm lying, I'm dying. It works. >> We'll see. >> a like bottle of water or a big cup of water, and you get a straw, and then you block your nostrils and your ear holes, and then you chug the rest of the thing through the straw. It gets rid of your hiccups. See, they hurt so bad. Okay, so here we go. I'm going to show it to you. >> The only thing that could take out Kyle Thompson hiccups. It's going to be funny if he like does a hiccup and just spits that all >> Dude, this dude tried to spit water on me. It works. >> Well done. >> Get out of here. >> I always just eat a spoonful of peanut butter. >> Nice. >> Gone. >> Well done. >> Hiccups gone. >> So >> Adam Smith has saved me a lot of You still look uncomfortable. >> I I am. >> Bro, >> I am. >> Bro, you you got way too close. >> Yeah. >> He's still got more in you. >> got a little bit of skull knocking around in more water. >> I got I had I got COVID like first man. When COVID was first a thing, I got it like pretty quick. And I haven't been able to smell like for a while ever since. And I'm hoping that just like reversed it. I think I'm healed now. >> I'm actually so >> smell everything. >> So, one of the reasons I think I've been happily married for 20 years is Stacy actually does not have a sense of smell. >> It's got to It's got to be a factor. >> That's a win for me, but I'm actually curious if she would actually smell anything in the smelling salts. >> It's the thing with the smelling salts, it's not the smell, it's the ammonia ammonium >> ammonia >> ammonia >> that goes up your nostrils and burns. >> Yes. >> Right. Wait, so wait, she can't smell? >> No. She has no sense of smell. We're doing this. >> No sense of smell? >> Face timer. >> No. Does she want to do some smelling salts then? >> Yeah. We should face timer her and be like >> I'm actually That's what I was saying, I'm curious >> if she would have the same reaction. >> Why do you buy cologne, Jake? >> I knew a guy in college >> For men. >> I don't want you to feel lonely. He couldn't smell either. >> So, and he was involved in like youth group stuff. So, he would just eat the craziest stuff and all the kids would freak out cuz he couldn't taste anything. His favorite food was peanut butter and jelly cuz it felt cool. >> It felt cool. >> Yeah. >> It felt It felt cool. >> Joey Martin is the least cool person on the planet. Joey's the least cool person on the planet cuz he hasn't >> That's still my goal. I'm going to get him. I'm going to put him in a circumstance where if he doesn't do it like he just Anyway. >> I I have a question about the onions though. Does that mean you don't like fried onion burgers? >> Yeah, he doesn't. No. >> Woof. >> Oh. >> Why would I want to put earthworms on my burger? Cuz that's basically what it is when people do onion burgers. >> with onions, huh? >> do onions. >> Not at all. >> That's crazy. >> And cuz here's the thing, people put onions on everything. And they're like it's just for the taste, bro. How many of y'all Who had my chili? Check. Check. Check. >> It's missing onions. >> No, it's not missing It's not missing a darn thing. How many of you've had my smash burgers? >> Yeah. >> Check. Check. Check. >> So good. >> not on your Mount Rushmore burgers you've had in your life? >> It's true. >> Onions have never been anywhere near my Blackstone baby. >> That's true. >> And that's the only thing that could ruin my burger. Because when I make stuff, whether it's my salty balls, whether it's my jerky, whether it's my baked beans, whether it's my >> How do you go to salty balls and jerky? >> What? >> That's the only thing you're good at making. >> No. >> Is that right? >> You've had the burger. You've had the burger. You've had the chili. >> you take it back. >> You take it back. >> I'll take it back. >> Okay. >> Top three burgers of all time. Your brisket's good, too. >> Yeah, my brisket, yeah. Got brisket. Hey, shout out to the person who makes the worst brisket in the world, Zach Todd. >> Can't even figure out this timer. >> Like I swear to God, Zach Todd, and I know we've we've given a lot of crap about this before, but my goodness, that guy. He will like he's got to have brisket for dinner, and he puts it on at like 3:00 in the afternoon, and then he's like, "Ah, it's cooking too slow." And so he he chucks it up to 900° and then he turns it into a bicycle tire, and then he's just basically like, >> This brisket's horrible. Tastes like a leather boot. >> Isn't it Howard that makes your briskets? >> Yeah, Howard. Oh, no. >> I make Howard's briskets. >> Howard's briskets. >> Bro, dude, everyone's catching strays today that's not here. >> Poor Howard. >> It was It was Howard's birthday yesterday. >> It was Howard's birthday recently. >> Yeah. You know where I ran into him? Missy's Donuts at the best donut shop on planet Earth. Uh like I will drive past 20 donut shops to go, but he >> He lives like 2 minutes away from that place. >> He should be a billion pounds by now. >> No. He'd be my size. >> Yeah. >> That's trick size. >> Not Howard. >> Yeah, man, yeah. >> Howard and we actually we actually went to dinner with the Wickershams last night at Cafe Icon. >> Yeah. >> The best sushi place in Oklahoma. >> Oh, was it you? Oh, yeah. >> This guy doesn't know anything about sushi. >> He's a hater. What's your What's your point? >> Sushi is really good. >> No. >> Yeah, for sure. >> Sushi good. >> is very good. I like Patrick. >> Oh. >> Everyone's friends with Patrick. But >> Patrick is awesome. >> But he's awesome. >> Sushi is better. >> He found out it was Howard's birthday. He came over and he said, "We're doing sake bombs." Yeah, so Howard, myself, and Patrick >> did a sake bomb? >> We He just said, "Okay, I'm I'm going to yell I'm going to He said, "I'm going to yell sake and then everybody has to yell bomb." And so he yelled sake and then bomb and then we banged the table and then chugged it which I was like on on my list of things I never thought I would do with Howard Wickersham, a sake bomb is really high on that >> So, I got a funny sake bomb story. >> Oh god, here we go. >> All right, so we were in Chicago. My dad and I would go My My birthday's in December on the 11th, my dad's the 12th. And so we'd always go out to Chicago together to watch a Bears game. And uh one time we were meeting with one of the players at the for the Bears up in where their training camp was and there's this place called Tsukasa. When they told me like, "Hey, we're going to go there for dinner." I was like, "Okay." I'm thinking this is like a Mexican restaurant. >> That would have been my guess. >> We roll up, it's a sushi restaurant. And a hibachi. And so we're there. I got a buddy of mine, my roommate was with us, my brother, my sister, my mom, my dad, uh one of the player's wives at the time. And I'm like, "Hey, we're here. We're doing sake bombs." You know, I'm like 23, so I'm an idiot. And so we're like three sake bombs in. >> Yeah, watch out. >> And I'm like I'm like, "Sake bomb." And I So, finally the player shows up and he's like an hour late. And so we're like three or four sake bombs in. And I was like, "Hey man, let's do a sake bomb. It's my birthday." He's like, "All right." So, he tells the guy, "Hey, bring out the sake bombs." So, they bring us out sake bombs, but they bring him out one with a clear liquid and a red liquid. And we do the sake bomb and we take it and I I throw it down and I'm like, "Man, what did you have?" He's like, "You can't handle that, man." He's like, "That's straight vodka with a cranberry vodka on top. And I'm like, I can do that. And he's like, all right, let's order it. And my dad, I can see my dad's face. He's like, No. Please don't. And so, he's like, he's like, bring me two of those. So, the guy brings that two of them out. And man, I do the sake thing and I chug it back. And I throw it down like I'm a beast. And I'm like, he's like, dude, how strong was that? And I was like, it's kind of really sweet, not strong at all. And he's like, cuz it's cherry grenadine and Sprite. You ate ALL OF IT. >> OH, MAN. YEAH. >> YOU SET YOURSELF UP FOR that one. That's okay. >> Yeah. >> Uh but before we get into the text, Caleb, we need another update. Uh you still look uncomfortable. >> I mean, I'm I'm normalizing, though. >> Hot. So, do you want to describe for the audience at home? Well, first of all, why in the world did you go >> know. >> that close to your nose the first time? Like, why'd you do that? And then, uh how did you feel? How do you feel now? >> Uh I I just felt like I would go bigger or go home. >> That a boy. >> And it took my breath away. I could not breathe. So, when I tried to take a drink, when you can't breathe, IT COMES OUT. I literally couldn't breathe. >> Bro, you literally swung out of your shoes on that one. You absolutely went for >> her some credit cuz I did that and I literally threw up in the bathroom. >> And he was in your seat. And so, it was a bit of a problem like getting getting out of here. Well, when I first I WAS LIKE, AT FIRST I was like, what is wrong with him? And then you explained, look, I I have a condition. I don't have like nose hairs. And so, he didn't have any resistance. >> No, he's like, >> Yeah, it just went right up. He still He's still affected by it. He still has He still has a a few ticks from that kind of a thing. >> With that said, it was exactly what I expected. >> Okay. >> It's exactly what I >> Well, I'm so glad you were that uncomfortable and it it it definitely hit your expectations. >> my fears by doing it. I will not not do it anymore. >> Yeah. Well, that's well, but the the the Lady Winkler not being able to smell thing, that's still pretty interesting to me because she'll still feel it. I see, that's the thing I don't know if it's like cuz are we smelling that or are we like >> No, because if I don't have I don't have a real good sense of smell, I can smell little things, but no, I can feel that when I >> Yeah, that's more than a smell thing. >> Okay, so Jake, we're not going to do this for for public consumption, but I'm going to send this one home with you. And so, I just want you But you do have to video it and just send it to us, all right? >> Just the four of us. >> We're not going to edit it into this video, we'll keep it private, all right? >> I will I will I will yeah. >> Even better, do it while she's sleeping. >> Oh, no. >> No. >> You psychopath. What is wrong with you? >> That would be so awesome. >> Buddy, I adore that woman. There's no chance of that happening. >> What's going to happen she's going to freak out, hit the bottle, and it's going to go all over the room, and then they're going to have to move. They're going to have to bomb the house and like completely rebuild it. What is wrong with you? >> It took us a long time to build that, too. >> honestly I wouldn't do that to my wife, so I wouldn't especially do it to yours. >> But I would have stayed married. >> But it is pretty funny like when you see these guys on like on the NFL or whatever, they kind of get their bell rung a little bit, and they just get one of those little bitty packet and then go right under the nose, and they go right up. But I remember right right before we did this for the first time, a lot of powerlifters. So, when you have these like Hafthor Björnsson, Eddie Hall, like Robert Oberst before they're about to do a big lift, like they will open that and they'll take something in it it it it overrides something in your central nervous system, and then you redirect it to the weight, and these guys absolutely swear that there is a perform a very very temporary short time span performance enhancement. And, you know, when you're when you're deadlifting 501 kilos, 505 kilos, like well over 1,000 lb deadlift and all that, if you put 2 and 1/2 lb more on the bar, like it makes an enormous difference. And so, these guys are looking for like any little edge, and so they get it from uh the world's strongest smelling salts. So, these are PEDs? >> Essentially, that's what I'm saying. >> So, is this episode going to >> want to be a home run hitter like Barry Bonds, you just go ahead and hit these eyes before you go to the plate. CAN YOU IMAGINE >> I'M MARK MCGWIRE. >> BRO, CAN YOU IMAGINE like modern day Can you imagine like Shohei Ohtani going to the plate and he just In between pitches, he just pulls this out and it's >> Not even that. He's got it in his He's got it in the bottom of his bat. He's like >> Bro, IF HE DID IT HE WOULD hit balls 700 ft. >> absolutely. It's like one of those guys in a 70s movie. >> Oh. >> I think I think I think Schwarber might actually Hulk, you know, turn into the Hulk. >> Sure. >> Yeah, if there was a player that that was smelling salts, I think Kyle Schwarber is He is smelling salts. Can you imagine what he's going to do in beer league softball after he retires? >> Oh man. >> Oh, okay. One another quick story and then we'll get into the scripture. One of my favorite videos that I've ever seen. So, Jayson Werth, uh he played on the Nationals and >> Phillies? >> Yep. Yep, that's right. >> Okay, so he had a pretty good uh career. He was an outfielder. >> All-star. >> You know, tall lanky guy, all-star, like, you know, good nice beard, good good long mane. He had a He had a very successful career. There's this amazing video. Uh he go He's hanging out with some buddies and they have this uh this like baseball league. So, it's a wood bat baseball league. So, think your beer league softball, but these guys are actually playing baseball. So, they're actually pitching, they're actually catching, they're actually doing the whole thing. And I guess they just convinced him, "Hey, would you just Would you just come in like just for one game and just like just see some pitches and blah blah blah." And the video is amazing cuz it's being shot from like the first base side. So, like basically, you know, you have the catcher to the left and then you have the ump and then you have Jayson Werth right there. And first pitch, Jayson Werth hits this ball about 475 ft ft. An absolute moon shot. And then he was asked about that on a podcast and he goes, "That's the last time I ever swung a bat." Cuz he's like, "I had retired. I hit a bunch of of bombs in the show. I'd been in a bunch of great games, went to the playoffs, did the whole thing. And he's like, "Can't really end on a better note than that. Wasn't even supposed to be playing, got in there throwing a helmet, grabbed a wooden bat, and hit a ball to the moon." And that dude has not picked up a bat since. So, shout out to Jason Werth, but we need to get into Romans 7. And so, we've spent the last, you know, several weeks digging into Romans 6. And again, you know, with Romans, we're just approaching it very differently. We get as far as we get. We're not trying to take out a whole chapter at a time. I mean, Romans, as Matt Chandler said, is Mount Everest. And so, we're going to approach it with that kind of reverence. And so, we're going to get into chapter 7. And so, Caleb, if you will go ahead and read, you're reading from the NASB. Um you're going to read the first four verses of Romans 7. >> All right. I'm back to normal now, I think. >> Okay, very good. Well, we're about to find out. >> I'm good. Or do you not know, brethren, brethren, for I'm speaking to those who know the law, that the law has juris- jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living. But if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living, she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress through those she is joined to another man. Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may be joined to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. >> Okay, so this first part here, as far as my understanding and reading into some different commentaries, this isn't as much a description of what women can or can't do in in marriage, and what they can do to become an adulteress, or any of those types of things. It's basically trying to understand how do we bind to the law? Okay, so so the first three verses is, you know, the law binds and regulates our marriage. Okay? How do we get, you know, bondage and regulation through through marriage, a positive bondage? It is through the law. That's how we can understand it. And so, I loved what R.C. Sproul said in his comment Do you have that Caleb, do you have the the R.C. Sproul Romans in a year book? So, a lot of you guys have kind of asked about that. So, if you're looking for it online, it looks roughly like that. Show it off to your camera. The Power of the Gospel Year in Romans by R.C. Sproul Ligonier Ministries. It is a fantastic fantastic resource. And so, I loved what he said, you know, in in reference to verse four, you know, our spouse hasn't died. We have. >> Mhm. >> The law hasn't died. We have. >> Yep. >> And since we died, our marriage to the law is over. The law no longer has dominion over us. To which you might say, well, that's contradictory to the Oh, so are we just supposed to sin now? No, by no means, okay? So, because the law has been you know, consumed or fulfilled by Jesus, because we are no longer slave to sin, that does not mean that we can sin willy-nilly. Ryan, you've talked about cheap grace a lot with Bonhoeffer and how you used to, you know, carry yourself early on in your walk. But that's essentially what what we're talking about here is it's just talking about the law's jurisdiction and how we are to relate to the law and he's using marriage as a metaphor here. So, other things as we ease our way into Romans 7. >> I like how you brought up marriage. >> Me too. Because like when we look at the gospel and we look how the gospel's portrayed and how we just went over Ephesians at our church, they just did submission for women last week and love and leading for men this week. I like how Paul is sticking with marriage not only to to still show the gospel, to show that hey, even even even though we we are dead, we're dead. So, because of Christ, we're we're now free. So, we're dead from the law and through Christ, we are we are redeemed. So, I I just like how he brings it back to marriage. I love how marriage is used. >> Yeah, it's um like when he started off here talking to the brothers and I mean again here I reading it within the context I'm I'm thinking okay, he's talking to the he's talking to his Jewish brethren. And when he brings up marriage, I don't know if you guys are familiar with the Jewish marriage ceremony the kiddushin >> It's like 7 days. >> It's well, I mean just in terms of the steps. So there's there's the the bride price. The groom pays a price to the bride's family. >> Okay. >> Okay, which symbolize the value of the bride and the seriousness of the covenant, which you could say Jesus pays a price for us, right? For our sin. Then there's the marriage contract, a legal document describing groom's responsibilities, financial provisions for the bride. The word. Then you have the couple wine covenant. Okay, during the betrothal ceremony, the groom or his family representative would present a cup of wine to the bride. Saying, I offer you my covenant, will you become my wife? Uh if the bride drank from the cup, she was accepting the marriage covenant. If she refused the cup, the proposal was declined. After the betrothal, so they wouldn't go back and live with each other after all this. She'd go back to her family, he would go back and he would say his responsibility was to go and prepare a place for them. >> So leave and cleave. >> Yeah, so he well, generally he would he generally he would build on a room to his father's house. >> Oh, really? >> And I go back to in my in Gospel of John 14:2-3, in my father's house are many rooms, I go to prepare a place for you. So when you start looking at again, talking to the Jewish brethren, this means something even deeper to them when you talk about marriage because there is a covenant, there is the offering of the cup and again, if you want to go back to the cup, that's communion. That's communion in and of itself. So um I I look at when I start I liken like I mean, so much of what I look at things theologically is through that prism of marriage itself, which is supposed to look like our covenant with God is my covenant with my wife. And her covenant with me. And so, I I very much I appreciate the gift that is marriage because I don't know that I could actually have a picture of God's love without it. >> So, I'm actually curious for you guys that this this came up in a discussion I was having with somebody this week. Uh we're working on some some people to come on the show that have written some really big marriage books and we've had Gary Thomas on before and obviously we have good friends that are in marriage counseling and, you know, therapy and things like that. I I wonder about passages like this and passages like in Ephesians 5, which we went over this morning in church cuz last week, you know, he addressed yeah, submission for women, right? And so, he did uh Mark Hitchcock did a great job of going through those passages, but then, you know, he was very clear like, "Men, these passages are not for you. >> Yep. >> Good for you to know. They're not for you. Not talking to you, right? So, if you bring up these passages, you lose, right? That that's basically how that goes. And then today he hit us with the rest of it, which is how husbands are supposed to love their wives. And he's like, "Look, husbands have two jobs. Lead, love. Lead, love. That's it. And how are we to love? Sacrificially. We are to love our wives as Christ has loved the church." But by virtue of what I've done Well, there's actually no butt here. So, I I want to I want to take that back. But I And I said it again. >> All right. >> And And with that >> And therefore >> And therefore >> That's a fancy butt. >> There are a lot Shut up. There There are a lot of guys that I've talked to uh via this ministry, you guys that have talked to me in person, DMs, emails, all that. And, you know, of course there was always the I hate you, you're a you're a tool of the Jews, and there's all those morons, and then there's the people that are just like pouring their hearts out, right? And when you have people that have just been violated by their spouses, right? They've had they've they chose wrong, they married the wrong woman, or and and this is both ways, by the way. I have guys that will admit, my wife's a saint, I'm a horrible person, this is what I did to her, you know, all those different things. And then I just look at it, and you hear from these people, again, sage people that are just like, man, marriage is just rough. Like, it's just it's rough. I don't know anyone that's got a really good one, you know, it's just kind of is what it is, and most people pick wrong. The reason why the divorce rates are so insane inside and outside the church is because, you know, it's not just that marriage sucks and is hard, it's that people suck and they don't want to work hard, right? And so I I struggle to give guys kind of like a light at the end of the tunnel thing outside of just, well, you made a covenant, deal with it. Like, you know, uh buck up, buttercup, like, life's tough, get a helmet, like you know, you did it, right? So, you may think that you made the wrong decision, but you made it. And so, what what are we supposed to do? But then I I I struggle, Ryan, as they they're trying to figure out like how these passages and and we're given marriage as a gift to understand in some finite way just a modicum of how big Jesus' sacrifice was for his bride. But then you look at these guys, and maybe they're products of a broken marriage or generational broken marriages, and then now they're struggling, and they're like, crap, I'm just the latest iteration of this. Is this what my kids are going to do? And then you have a whole generation of kids that are listening to idiots like Andrew Tate or or all these people that are just like, hey, sire a bunch of children, but father none of them. And so, it's hard whenever I talk to those guys, especially when you look at Paul using this as an example, Paul's not even married, so what the hell would he know, right? So, there there's a lot there. >> I >> Holy take. >> I was I mean I would say to those guys Kyle that I mean I've been married it'll be 20 years in July and I always tell people I've been married for 20 years 18 very happy years. Okay, those first two years were rough. Stacy and I both cop to like we had a lot of growing up to do. I had not put away childish things yet and what I what I would say is I think the moment I decided to actually you know going back to this the moment I decided to die to myself and live for my wife in a way okay, but the moment I decided to die for my die to myself and live for my wife is when I actually found true joy and happiness. The fact is and I think Mark's sermons last two weeks have been amazing. But the fact is we we should be looking at it as a husband you should be looking at the word and saying I need to obedient to God. It does not matter what my wife does. And I will also tell you though the moment I started doing that Stacy did exactly what a godly woman would want to do. It's remarkable. So >> Feel like you found true happiness and joy by following God. >> Yeah. And what happened there? Peaked out the same thing happened with us and where HL and I in our marriage um We had a tough time. Um I would say after our second was born and there were was talks of divorce and everything, but we didn't know what a godly marriage was. Uh you know, we were the we were the cultural Christians, you know, go to church on Sunday just cuz that's what you do, but I didn't know you know, one I wasn't putting God first, but also I didn't know what a godly marriage was. I didn't even understand the gospel. And so that's where it's like once you understand the gospel, once you really grasp the gospel, it changes everything. It changes who you are, it changes what you believe, it changes how you go about >> So, Ryan, double click on that. So, so describe for the people cuz you may be speaking someone's language right now, but they don't quite understand. So, describe before you feel like you really understood the gospel because some people might think, "Oh, so you weren't a Christian?" I don't think that you could say that. It's like I think you would put, you know, your faith into Christ, but you you say you didn't understand the gospel and then you didn't understand >> the sacrifice of the gospel. >> Okay, so talk more about that. >> I didn't understand sacrifice. I didn't understand that, you know, why did Jesus die for me? I wasn't I didn't have any It goes back to what I talked about with Hammer and Hank, you know, I thought I was going to I thought I was going to heaven cuz I'm a nice person. If you would have asked Ryan Horn in 2015 if he was going to heaven, I would have told you yes. Why? Because I do good things and I'm a nice person. You know, I had the answer of a 3-year-old in regards to how I was going to get to heaven. And so, I didn't understand the true sacrificial love of the gospel. That's because I didn't understand my own sin. And I didn't understand my own depravity. I thought I was this good person. And I did I do good things? Probably, you know, but I was living for myself. I was living in even in my marriage, I was living for myself. I wasn't living for Christ and I wasn't living for my wife. I wasn't living for my kids. I was like, I take care of them, I get three meals a day, you know, I get I get the the husbandly duties and then boom, you know, I'm back doing my own thing again. And once I understood the sacrifice that Christ did on the cross for us and the beauty of that, that's my sacrifice to my wife and my sacrifice to Christ is nothing compared to what he did for me. >> To to kind of, I mean, draw the comparison here. I mean, if you really want to go if you're I mean, I, you know, people people have asked me like, "Hey, what do you do? Like, I'm going to get married. Do you have any advice?" And I mean um or you're you're married you seem pretty happily married, why? And I guess I would say it's it's the same thing in terms of your salvation. It's okay I if I started that it's because I I'm going to I'm doing it wrong. Yeah. If but I would say for me it's like well why you're so happily married? I have an amazing wife. My wife is here's what everything she does for me. Here's everything that she provides for me. Here's you know here's all the way she sacrifices for me. And then I would assume she would probably say the same thing. But in the way it's very others focused. You know in in the same way our salvation should be Christ focused. It's not not anything I'm doing. Okay, I can't check any boxes and make myself go to heaven. He checked the only box I have to check. I mean I think you know my heart goes out to the people that especially like the ones I would imagine that let's say two non-believers get married and then one of them becomes a believer. Like those are really the ones I feel like is it's really difficult. That's not to diminish you know other people just having just a two Christians get married and they're going through whatever they're going through. Um but I mean the overwhelming like thing that I when you when you think about marriage that the overwhelming thing to me is not not as much as like the responsibility that we have as a couple but it's more like the responsibility that each one of us have individually to put the Lord first, right? I mean you know and that's I mean as far as advice goes for for guys I mean that's that it has to start and end there, you know that it's like if you if you are dying to yourself and if you are trying to become sanctified, that's all you can do. You know you can't control that. The way that she responds but our our job is just to um to do the best that we can and try and provide a space where people can flourish, where everyone around us can flourish. >> You hit the nail on the head. It's we can't make them change. We can't, you know, if I'm if I understand the gospel and I know the beauty of the gospel, but my spouse does not, my job is just to live out the gospel. My job is to live out that sacrificial love. And pray and hope that at some point, you know, I'm not really at that point I'm not really worried about like, oh, I have a crappy marriage. I'm not I'm worried about that person in general where they're going to spend eternity. You know, and so that's where it's like we got to let God do his work, but what I can do is I can trust in him and I can do what he asked me to do. And that's a way of sacrificing. >> Well, we don't have to give an account for how other people acted. Right. Right. So, when we give an account someday of our life and you know, we have to answer whatever questions we have to answer or how all that works on the other side of all this, um you're you're not going to be asked about, well, this person responded to you in this way. Right, this person respond Well, no, no, it's going to be you-focused. What did you do? Did you Did you hold up your end of the bargain? And that is true. I do see a lot of guys, they put an unbelievable emphasis on what they've done and no emphasis whatsoever on what anyone else has done or what they have done to cause anyone else's behavior. And And look, I'm very I'm very black and white when it comes to personal behavior. It's like even if you have a bunch of really bad stimuli, a bunch of really bad stuff on the front end of the equation, you still have agency, you still have options. And you could be in a horrible, abusive, terrible, awful situation, but you still get to choose how you respond to it. That applies to married people, not married people, kids, adults, like the like the whole the whole nine yards. But you have so many people, especially men, they're just very focused on, you know, the raw deal that they got. I mean, I've talked to people that you know, a 3-year-old says, "Well, I'm going to go to heaven because I'm nice and because I do nice things and all that." Well, then you can could to someone that's in their 60s and it's like, "Well, why do you think you get to go to heaven? Because I worked hard my whole life. >> Mhm. >> Because I never killed nobody. >> Because I didn't do these things. >> I didn't do these things. Because I'm better than that guy. Because I'm whatever. And it's like, man, you want to talk about not understanding the gospel. >> Mhm. >> The got the gospel, and this is where something like total depravity is very helpful to understand. It's like, look, you're not as bad as you could be, but you're bad. You're depraved. You are not redeemable on your own merits. >> Mhm. >> Right? And that applies to the the person in prison for for murder, and that applies to the home school mom that, you know, has, you know, sat in the front row in school, and you know, supports her husband, and does all those different things. They can be just as equally depraved categorically, even if they don't, you know, think that way. Um I would say as well, uh well, let's go ahead and actually move on. Let's read the next couple of verses. So, uh Jake, how about you go and hit verses 5 and 6 for us of Romans 7, verses 5 and 6. >> For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive. So that we serve in the new way of the spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. >> So, I actually loved what uh John MacArthur, may he rest in peace, um what he said about verse 5, so aroused by the law. Um when he talked about aroused by the law, he said, look, our sinful nature was actually awakened when restrictions were put in place. People are like, how does it that make any sense? Well, it goes back to what I was saying with those kids. >> Yeah. >> Right? It's like, when they saw no restrictions, when they saw no borders, they're like, oh, we need to kind of stay close to home base. The moment they saw borders, they started to float around a little bit more. They started to push the edges. They started to go further away than they would have gone had there not been some sort of restriction. And so, that is what is aroused like in us, like these sinful passions or proclivities, you know, when when our sinful nature is awakened because the restrictions that were put in place, it was because the law gave us something to compare ourselves to. Cuz again, the law is a mirror, right? The law can't clean us up, it can only smudge us up even even more. But that that's an important point on these next couple of verses. >> Sproul brought up the function of the law. And so he brought up Luther and Calvin as he discussed it, and he said Luther, the law was to serve as a beacon to Christ, to push us towards him. And that's how that's how Luther viewed the law. And like it was kind of funny cuz he talked about Luther, he was like some psychologist said like Luther was crazy. Like literally crazy because like he was the guy that would go to confession and would confess for every little thing that he did. And to the point where his got like the the head priest was like, you need to let it go, man. Like you need to let it go. You know, he's like, no, but he took the law so seriously. And you know, having to live up to the law, he's like, man, I'm not living up to this. So he he looked at the law as a beacon towards Christ. And then he said that Calvin was looking at the law as threefold. One reveals the character of God, which we've talked about. Two restraints on sin, which you talked about. And then three continues to reveal what is pleasing to God, which is the mirror. And so it's like, man, when you really look at it, you have to look at what is the law and why why is the law in place? And so that's that's one thing that I really took out of this is like, what's the function of the law if we're supposed to be if we're were aroused by it. >> Well, you all keep that going cuz it may sound shocking, but when you chug an entire tall boy of water, the second time in the history of this podcast, I got to go tinkle. So I'll be right back. Y'all do your thing. >> What's What's your thoughts on it? Cuz you we have a different perspective. >> As far as >> Like what's the function of the law for like like your thoughts on the function of the law? >> I mean We may not have a different perspective. >> I I I was going to say I don't I don't think I I if you want to look at the law, I mean you can't say that we are still under the law. >> No. >> There's a new covenant. We're not really under it. I mean, even even the 10 Commandments, you can't say we're under all 10. Cuz Sabbath is >> Yeah, we go to church on Sunday. >> Yeah, I mean, the Sabbath is gone. So, uh not gone, but you know, it's it's not a law that we break that's considered sinful. Um obviously the other nine you would go, yeah, you don't do that. But to me, it kind of goes back I I always say that Jesus did not make it easier, he made it harder. >> Yeah, it's true. >> I mean, people, you know, it's like back then, you know, under the law, it's like just don't do these things. >> Yeah. >> Jesus is now saying, don't think these things. >> Right. >> Don't feel these things. You It's like it's not enough not to do them. You can't even think about them. And the conviction comes the conviction comes whenever you do have those thoughts, it's like you have to battle them right then and there. There's no There's there's no like, oh well, I'm just thinking about it. It's like, no, you you're not supposed to do that. >> Yeah. >> Um and so that's that's a never-ending battle. Like So, I I would say I don't think we're under the law anymore, but I would also say people who look at the law and go well, man, I could not deal with all of that. It's like, right. Christ dealt with dealt with that for you. >> Mhm. >> But are you paying attention to what Christ said? >> Right. >> And and and and like that's why Christ brought it further because he wanted to show it's not just cuz how many people could be like, I never killed anybody. >> Right. >> You know what I'm saying? >> Why are you going to heaven? >> Yeah, I never killed anybody, you know? But the thing that you have to look at is yeah, he it's a really low bar. It's like when I tell my wife, well, I never got arrested in high school. She's like, well, a really good bar, you know? But but that that's the thing, he made it harder to show why you need Christ. And so when it comes down to the law, how I've how I've kind of viewed the law now is it has like I'm saved. And I'm not saved because of the law. I'm saved because of Christ. But the law shows me what righteousness is and what to strive for. And what God what God considers righteous. And that's I think I think that that's what Paul's trying to get at here. And correct me if I'm wrong. >> Well, I think the other thing I would say is the law the law can't deliver you from sin. >> Just shows you. >> It just shows it to you. You can't you can't deliver it. You know, and that's that's where the when you kind of look at uh and and look, I mean we we we condemn the Pharisees a lot, but I mean I would say that there's uh churches everywhere still apply extra rules. You know, and they layer stuff up. Huh? >> Gospel plus. >> Gospel plus. I mean they they layer on extra rules as to this is how you are delivered. This is how you are you know, this is what it means to follow Christ. And I think whenever you start look you know, look at all the things that Jesus was rebuking the Pharisees for. And then to me it's like you should be looking even at your own church and going is this the same stuff? You know, look uh you know, I I give I tithe and everything as commanded by scripture. But I mean is it if somebody decides not to do that is that condemnation? >> No. >> I don't know. >> But there's but we get to I mean we're getting further into the text, but 8:1 there's no condemnation in Christ Jesus. So I don't feel like when I when I deal with sin, I don't feel condemnation. I feel conviction that I need to change. >> Fair enough. >> And so like if like for somebody who doesn't give, like maybe they're giving what they can. And this is this comes back to my my deal with Adam, you know, back in the when Adam and I went at it over Calvinism and Arminianism and I got all upset. I got really haughty in in my thoughts on, you know, what I've what I've read and, you know, what I've done within the church compared to Adam and blah blah blah blah blah and you know, I had that I had a really really really bad attitude towards that where I was you know, I was second-guessing what he does, you know, rather than feeling conviction on my own, I was pushing it off on Adam and condemning him. And there's nothing to condemn Adam about and, you know, and that's where that's where like conviction comes in. So, I don't know what Adam's story is. Just like I don't know the story for somebody who tithes and I don't tithe. Maybe they don't have the money or maybe they're given $20. You know, who knows, but like all I like it comes back to marriage. Like all we can do is focus on ourselves >> Mhm. >> rather than me focus on condemning Adam because I want to make myself feel better because I didn't like the way that went down. You know, and so that's where it's just like the law comes back to show me that why I need Christ. >> Mhm. >> You know, that's what that's what the law that's the function of the law now. The function of the law isn't me doing. The function of the law is to show me I am free in Christ. >> Well, also what does you know, our relationship to the law going back to verse six, but now we are released from the law having died to that which held us captive so that we serve in a new way of the spirit and not in the old way of the written code. Again, that's not saying the written code is not important that we don't need anything to do or into anything to do with it. But now we have we have the freedom to do good. We have the freedom to do good now. We don't have license to sin. You can't read up to this point of Romans. Again, you can take it out of context and take it out of the letter and think like, oh, well, that means we can kind of do willy-nilly whatever we want to do. But we're just free from the spiritual liabil- liabilities and the penalties of God's law. Again, because, you know, Christ came to fulfill the law and our again, I just keep on hammer home like the the slave nature that we have no longer has dominion over us. We are not enslaved to the sin nature or in any of those types of a way, but that we can still have a negative impact on other people, on non-believers, even on ourselves, our own sanctification process, if we don't look at our new standing as being a slave to righteousness. Right? So, think about it. We We've hit that a lot in this batch of episodes, that no one really strives for righteousness, no one really tries to uphold a standard of righteousness. The best a lot of churches and ministries can do is say, "Hey, here's the list of things you can't do, and here's the things you should do." And, you know, again, when you get into the discussion of righteousness, that's where it's incredibly helpful because look, we we have the freedom now to do righteous things for the glory of God, whereas before when we were in Adam, if we did something that could be deemed righteous, it's still filthy rags. >> That's my question. That's the question that I have to like everybody at this table. Do you think before becoming a believer that you could do the will of God knowingly while being a non-believer? >> Did you say >> You're doing the will of God knowingly do the will of God while being a non-believer. >> I think best The best you could do would be accidentally doing the will of God. >> Like but you wouldn't knowingly do the will of God being a non-believer. >> I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, I don't even think you can. I think you could you could uh avoid I think I mean everything everything in God's will it starts with you acknowledging him as as Lord of your life, right? So, outside of that or before that, how could you do anything that's within inside his will for you? >> You know what I mean? >> see if I can rephrase this. Are you asking are there essentially can I do good without the Holy Spirit? >> Can you knowingly do what God calls righteous? If you want me to rephrase it. Can you knowingly do what God calls righteous without knowing without having the Holy Spirit or knowing him? >> How does How does God commune with his people? He gives us the Holy Spirit and It's just something that made me think. >> And I And the reason I phrased it is cuz I actually had this debate with my Bible study group at one point, which is you know, is there actually good deeds that you can do? Like, can you do good? Can you do righteous good works um without the Holy Spirit? Or is it essentially just me patting myself on the back cuz I've done something nice? >> So, like >> Can I rephrase that real quick? >> Cuz I'm just trying to understand. So, like saying like, all right, I'm not a believer, but I'm doing righteous good things. Am I doing that because of uh because I just want to do it because in the end it benefits me in a certain way? Or am I doing it because I think it's the moral good? That's the question, but like I mean, I would say I would say there's a lot of people that do things that are we would define them as morally good. Even though they're not believers. And now, the reason I think they're doing that is because they're standing on the shoulders of centuries of Judeo-Christian values that essentially has taught them what morally good means. So, I do think they can do things that are morally good that are still in line with what God would call as righteous. However, however, I can't say that they would knowingly be doing it because they have no relationship with God. >> But what's their heart behind it? Is their heart >> I think it could be either one. >> Because that's where it's like for me when I'm like reading this and when I think about what Kyle says, like, now we can knowingly do good. >> Mhm. >> That's before in my sin, I may have done good things, but when I did those good things, what did I do them for? And I can honestly tell you, I did those to benefit myself. >> For sure. Even though I know it's good. >> Yeah. >> I did it because I wanted to benefit myself. >> Yeah, you wanted to either feel good about yourself or you wanted to be liked. >> moment or something like that rather than be towards God. And that's where that's where I'm just trying to find because like I I have a total belief in depravity. Like I just don't think and you know this, but I just don't think and like it's something I've had to reckon with cuz even when Grassmeyer's on here in all his abundant wisdom, you know, he's like, "You will never choose God." You know, and that's what he always comes back to. But I'm just like, "Well, could I ever choose good without knowing God?" Would the good always be towards myself rather than towards God's will? >> Mhm. >> Without knowing him. I don't know. >> It's a mystery. >> There's a I feel like there's a lot of things to unpack there, too, though. It's like does everything fall into the camp of moral or immoral? Or is there something that's, you know, amoral? >> Can try. >> Can the lines intersect? >> Yeah. I mean, I think there's always there's some things where we said, "Hey, I think this would be morally good, but also it's beneficial." >> Right. >> Mhm. >> The lines can intersect. >> the common good. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, no, no, no, no. I'm saying I'm doing something for the common good, but also there's a benefit in this for me as well. >> Yeah. >> So, like there's you know, and I'll use the example of like, "Okay, I'm going to go serve on a board of an organization." All right. So, I serve on a board and I want to help this organization. I'm passionate about what they do. Oh, and also it's going to be really great to make some connections with other people who are passionate about this as well. >> Mhm. >> So, those are two lines that intersect, but I wouldn't say that like, "Okay, well, because this exists, the the idea that this there is some benefit to me here." It doesn't mean that the other side of that is automatically I'll just use the word depraved. Doesn't mean the other side of that is like "Well no, this this it just cancels that out." >> what it goes to me is like, "Where's the heart at?" Like just like where Christ talks about like, "You know, where's your heart at?" It's not about the deed that you did. where where's the heart? >> And I think so let's >> Go ahead, Caleb. >> Well, if you if you think back to you before you were a believer, I don't know what age you all became believers at, but was there anything that you were like I mean almost every decision you're making you're like what's in it for me. >> Yeah. >> You know, what's the what's the cost benefit? >> Yeah. >> And I'm going to make sure I'm on the right side of that and then I'll make my decision. >> Well, even if you have a natural cuz some people have a natural giving attitude, sacrificial love type attitude. But let's look at other places in Paul's letter to maybe address what you're bringing up. So as we wrap up here, Romans 3 starting in verse 9. What then are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all both Jews and Greeks are under sin as is as it is written, none is righteous, no not one, no one understands, no one seeks for God. And then the other reference was Romans 8:7 and 8, right? So we're not there yet. We'll probably get there at some point 2027 um at this rate but Romans 8:7 and 8, for the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God. Okay, so we're just pause. If we're in Adam, our mind is set on the flesh cuz it has to be cuz it can't be pointed any other direction, okay? >> Yeah. >> For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God. For it does not submit to God's law. Indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. And so the intent behind our actions. So look at it as a non-believer who gives their shirt off their back to somebody that needs it, it it that's still not in service of their own righteousness because they can't even they don't have justification apart from from Christ. And so even their good deeds are filthy rags. That applies to the believer and the non-believer. >> Mhm. >> I think I think it's just our limited thinking also of like what we think is really good and really righteous, you You it's just it's not God's definition. >> Yeah. >> From a cosmic perspective >> then there's righteous things and then there's filthy rags. >> Yeah, well, I mean I I I I guess and I'll just go like why are they dirty rags? Okay, I mean it's there's no doubt that God is going to say like no, I want you to help the needy. I want you to um you know help widows. I want you to you know, serve you know, serve in your community, serve in your church. He wants you to do all of those things. All of that's a good thing to do. But the reason they're all dirty rags is because God performed the ultimate righteous act. >> Right. >> He died for every one of us. So it's not a matter of I guess I don't look at it so much as you know an an an unwillingness to choose God. I look at it more as there's a measuring stick. And the measuring stick is not one that you want to try and climb because you can't. Right. >> That's exactly right. And that is really the the story of the gospel and that's really the the scandal of grace and the beauty of the gospel all right there in one. But guys, we're going to have to leave it there. We got through Romans 7:6 and so next week we're going to come back with a new crew and we're going to start in Romans 7:7. So make sure you're ready to go for that. Before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost. At mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Do not forget about the Logos Undaunted.Life study bundle. The link there is in the show notes to that. Also, we have a link to the Crossway Forging Table Starter Set. And we are a donation-based ministry. So if you want to help us equip men around the globe to push back darkness, undaunted.life/donate or go to the link here in the show notes. Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five-star review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@undaunted.life. That's info@undaunted.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www.undaunted.life. And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is their song Perpetua, which is off their self-titled debut album on Facedown Records. The links are in the description. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience, keep seeking the lion of Judah.