Hey guys, real quick. So, I've talked to men literally all across the globe about where they're missing the mark and how they want to improve. They normally talk about how they wish they were in better shape, they wish they had a better relationship with their loved ones, they wish they had more success and influence at work and some other stuff like that. But, here are some of the most common and biggest things that I hear. I wish I knew more about the Bible. I wish I could lead my family spiritually. I wish I could recall more scripture. I wish Bible study wasn't such a struggle. Well, guys, I've got news for you. You don't have to keep wishing. It's time for you to start doing. It's time for you to stop wasting your time and money on stuff that has no eternal value whatsoever. I keep hearing you talk about how you want to be more biblically literate and spiritually resilient, and now is your chance to prove that you mean it. That's why I want you to take advantage of our partnership with the most powerful Bible software on planet Earth, Logos. So, Logos approached me about putting something together for the Undaunted Lifers out there, and we collaborated to create something I'm super pumped about. The Undaunted Life Study Bundle. So, here's the skinny on the bundle. There are over 200 individual resources, and they include titles from authors like Voddie Bauckham, Charles Spurgeon, R.C. Sproul, John MacArthur, Matt Chandler, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, William Lane Craig, Paul Washer, John Stott, Doug Wilson, Paul David Tripp, J.I. Packer, and a whole bunch more. And there are so many helpful resources in there. There's Bibles, commentaries, Old and New Testament study guides, devotionals, systematic theologies, courses dictionaries histories encyclopedias, non-fiction books, and more, and more, and more. And here's the most insane part about this deal. If you were to buy each individual resource by yourself inside of Logos, it would cost you over $3,000. $3,000. But, if you get the Undaunted Life Study Bundle, you'll get all 200-plus resources for just $349.99. Guys, that's $3,000 worth of stuff for 350 bucks. Guys, that's almost 90% off. And you know that you waste more than that on the hobbies that you have right now all the time, and these won't help you with your discipleship and sanctification journeys, right? It's time to get real and take control of your Bible study and spiritual development. Click the link in the show notes for this episode. If you want the link, it's logos.com /undauntedlife. That's www.logos.com/undauntedlife or the link in the show notes. It's super easy to sign up. Again, go to the show notes and click the link or go to logos.com/undauntedlife, sign up for Logos, and get the Undaunted Life Study Bundle right now. >> [music] [music] >> This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. Welcome back to the forging table. The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. At the forging table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience by digging into God's word. We're welcome It's You know what? >> to redo the clock now? >> you don't. You don't actually because we finally got it right. We have someone here who's capable of doing the clock, so I'm just going to pick up right where where I went, okay? At the forging table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience by digging into God's word, and we're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with us. That's Caleb, back again. Let's go. Let's go. We got the horn over there. I think it's everybody's favorite forging table at this point. And then we got Jake. Jake, do you know why you're sitting next to me? Uh I don't know. I'm actually really confused and thrown. I don't think I'm going to be very good today. >> But let me just go ahead and, you know, inform [clears throat] you as to why because normally we put baby in the corner. And so, the corner is over there because with the angle we got of the camera of, you know, our main wide shot or whatever, when we have anyone that's like Shrek's size or, you know, Wickersham size or something like that, and we put them right there, they like engulf the person on the other side of them. And so, we normally put you over there. The problem is is every time you sit there, you can't stop looking at yourself in the monitor. [laughter] And the monitor is like right over there. And Jake will be like it's like when someone's talking to you, but they're talking past you. Like, "Yeah, Ryan, this, that, and the other thing, and whatever." And you're you're sitting there like, >> [laughter] >> "Are are you are you talking to me?" So, I never know officially whether or not you're actually talking to me. Sorry. >> [laughter] >> That's it? That's all you have to say for yourself is sorry? >> I got a question. Sometimes sorry is enough. Yeah. >> [laughter] >> Just trailing off, but he does he does have good microphone discipline. But yeah, he just can't like that. Why wasn't That wasn't a dig. You haven't had that problem in a very, very, very long time. It's been years at this point. >> Yeah. How many When did the 4G table start? I should probably like figure that out. >> We started doing it in 2022, but the first episode came out January of 2023. Dude. Nice. I don't know what >> Galatians one. Stop it. Stop it. Stop looking at yourself [laughter] in the Are you Can you not comfortably do the recording without looking at yourself? I don't know, man. Like I said, this is I don't know. What I was going to say it's weird cuz I can't even see myself. I don't know why. I know Well, there you know what? It's Cuz he's in front of There's a double Yeah, there's a double use of this apparently. Kyle can put me right here because the glare off my head blinds me on that TV. >> Right. So, lighting is an important thing. We have lights all over the place. Sitting here feels like I'm like wearing another man's underwear right now. I mean, it's just uncomfortable. >> you know what that feels like? >> Yeah. Not going to say anything. >> That's the question. >> [laughter] >> What was his name? I had roommates. Oh no. >> Audrey? Yeah. Wait, Audrey? Audrey? AUDREY. AUDREY? WAIT, YOU HAD A [laughter] ROOMMATE NAMED LAUNDRY? BRO, THAT'S A CHICK. REALLY? Do you have a >> Does Lady Winkler know this? Right. So, [laughter] so Jake, when you wear other men's underwear, is it like out of a necessity thing? You've been turning yours inside out for a week because laundry's behind? >> was an analogy. Analogy sometimes break down. >> We don't do those on this show. [laughter] We only do like straight to the text type thing. We never go off topic or whatever, but >> Never nuanced. Yeah, no, God, nuanced. Why would you even start there? Like, okay, let's just go ahead and get all the words [laughter] I don't like out of there. Should, could, would, maybe, sassy, nuanced, those types of things. Sassy. Right. Sassy came up. We were downstairs. >> [laughter] >> We were downstairs. Yeah. And we were talking with with the Kelsey. Undulating wife. Undulating wife. >> [laughter] >> And Kyle, I was not at church this morning because I have a sick 3-year-old, so you know, we do these tapings. It takes about 5 hours. So, I told my wife, like, you just guys go to church. I'll stay home with little Hank. And so, I guess they're at group in our at our Sunday school. Yeah. So, Correct. Yeah. So, we're at our Sunday school and then Kyle goes, "Man, where's Ryan? Who's going to argue with me?" You know? And uh And uh I was like, "We don't argue." You know, we were talking about downstairs and uh Lady Thompson was all like, "Uh you guys get sassy sometimes." Sassy. >> Sassy. And I didn't know I hated that word until it was [laughter] said in my presence. It's like how people don't like the word moist That's right. until someone says it. Yeah, it's like moist and people are like, "Ooh." And so, that's kind of I had like an actual visceral reaction to sassy. >> what word I hate is nail scissors. What What is that? >> says nail scissors. I've never heard that in my life. >> reading a book for my kid and like, I read this as like, "If a mouse wants a cookie" is the book. Right. >> And they say nail scissors. As if like Like I can't Like nail clippers? Yeah, but I can just feel like scissors going on a nail and It's not a thing. Yeah, I don't know. No, we we got to throw that book away. It's like makes me feel like they're taking nail clippers to my teeth when I say scissors. >> I don't know. Yeah, most terrible things are from there. scissors >> nail scissors Speaking of Canada, I mean, we love our Canadian listeners, but my God, this is several months after the fact, but how does it feel not only that we in the only sport y'all care about, >> [laughter] >> which is hockey, which is like our fifth or sixth favorite sport here in this country. Not only did we take the men's gold medal and the women's gold medal, we took the men's Paralympic gold medal from y'all as well. >> [laughter] >> We beat all of y'all in the final in hockey. We beat Team Canada in all of those games. I think Team USA won in overtime as well. Even more pathetic than that. It's actually pretty awesome. So, so where I went to school, where Kelsey and I went to school, the University of Central Oklahoma, I think well, at the time when I was there, it may still be, it was the only university that was an Olympic and Paralympic training site. Okay. >> And so, they had like the sitting volleyball teams would train there and different things. So, what they do in hockey, as far as I can tell, they've got like a little um uh like a sled >> that they sit on and they've got two kind of like shorter sticks. And so, they're like they're kind of using their hands like to move or like kind of skate around or whatever, but then they have both they have sticks in both hands and so, they can still pass and kind of do the whole thing, but I think the USA men's sitting Paralympic hockey team won against Canada in overtime just like we did against the women and the men. >> We need to rub that in Samuel Say's face. Poor Samuel Say. That guy, I mean >> I love Samuel, but man, he's He took the Canadian thing way too literally. Like he doesn't even live there anymore. No. I don't even know who that is. He's a statesman. He grew up in Ghana, I think, and then came to Canada and now he's immigrated to the United States, but he's still like rooting for Canada and claiming Canada and everything. He's got a lot of recessive genes, that guy. And so, like but that's a chosen one. Like Canadian like he could I don't know if he's still a citizen. I don't know how any of that is. So, what sports are left for them? What are they going to do now? Uh mountie races. >> [laughter] >> They they they take bets on Uh syrup sipping? Yeah, well syrup sipping and then they see [clears throat] which line of syrup dripping down from the trees going to reach the bottom of fastest. So they they take bets and do stuff like that. Ice fishing, you know, real Canadian stuff. How many pastors you can arrest for holding church service? Yeah, that's that. They set a new record and they keep [laughter] breaking it. So the communist hellhole that is Canada. But no, we love our Canadian listeners, especially y'all [laughter] up there >> for you every day. >> You know, it is it is actually like all kidding aside, it's kind of sad when I get emails from guys up in Canada because they're like, "Dude, it's it really is that bad, but not all of us are like that and blah blah." And I'm like, "Hey man, I know." But I'll even have them ask me like there was a guy that got into a really serious kind of situation and you know, we're kind of like need a firearm type situation and he's like, "But in Canada we have all these regulations like you can't even have like your firearm with your ammunition and if you want to take it out and go shoot like you got to let the local sheriff know that you're even like taking your own firearm out of your house and blah blah and stuff like that. And I basically told him I was like, "Look dude, like you got to be in one of those mindsets to where it's like if you're going to defend yourself using a firearm in Canada, you're just going to be okay with the consequences. Like so if you save your life, your wife's life, your family's life, a stranger's life or something like that, they're going to put you in prison. And like [clears throat] it's like, "Okay, given the given the two macabre horrible options of you go to prison for protection protecting somebody including yourself or you know, someone you love is hurt or just in it a stranger that's an image bearer of God gets hurt." Um you kind of have to be okay with that. I'm like, "I hate to say that, but those are your options at this point." But I wonder if a Canadian prison's like Club Med cuz they're so liberal over there. So I bet all the prisoners are real nice to each other. They're all like No, they're all like, "Hey Long story. Don't worry about >> [laughter] >> What are you talking aboot? >> Yeah, no. Um I mean, probably have to go to the sheriff just to use your own nail scissors. So >> Yeah, well I yeah, now I've got [laughter] the aversion to it. That's gross. See? Nail scissors. I told you. Now I got it. Wait a minute, does anyone have like super long nails going on right now like fingers or toenails? Cuz I got some scissors over there, we could like give it a go. We could like give it a try. What do you think? What? No? Not a fan? No. Okay. >> [laughter] >> Well, I guess we >> But what I am a fan of is righteousness. Oh, look at you doing a Grassmyer transition. That guy, you know, what where is that guy? That guy is like never available anymore. >> He and I talked like 2 weeks ago. Why is he so important? >> me. It was so awesome. You know what? >> like, "I never get a call from you." >> Grassmyer's, he would be one of those guys that would like walk into the studio right on time wearing sunglasses, like just kind of like bebop his way wink wink Oh, yeah. Where are the sunglasses? Can we actually put them on for just this recording? I'll do it. Bam. Let's go. You can even look at yourself >> Tom Cruise and Shrek made a baby. Bam. Shabam. [laughter] Look at it. Look at Here. Yeah, lean into my shot. Lean into my shot. Look at this thing. What What What is it? What [laughter] is it? Look at this thing. What What's your wrestling name? Vicious. >> Vicious? You better know it. Vicious looking delicious. [laughter] >> Time out. Why don't we have vicious shirts? I don't know. What do you mean you don't know? >> Was I supposed to get them? Well, I mean, the last time you were here, you brought me a present. It's like I just like I a present last time you were here. I didn't bring you anything. >> even know what he brought me? So, you as a baseball guy, you would you would love this. And so So, to set it up like 2 weeks before, he sees me in Sunday school and he goes, "I got you a little something for your like 10-year anniversary of Undaunted Life, which is this year." And I'm like, "Okay." He's like, "And you're going to freak out." And I was like, "All right." But, you know, guys say things or you know, we can be hyperbolic, we can be exaggerative. I don't know what that's about. Uh but, you know, it's a thing that people do. And then so, he tells Kelsey, uh Lady Thompson, Undaunted wife, what he got me. And when we got home from uh from service that day, she goes, "Jake told me what he got you. You're going to freak." And I was just like, "Oh my gosh." And so, I'm like going through my brain like, "What could it possibly be?" I was like, "And maybe it's going to be whiskey cigar related related maybe it's going to be baseball related." Like something I was like, "I I don't really know." And so, he beebops in here for uh the last batch of recordings and he sits down there in uh the big guy chair. And then right at the first thing, he just grabs himself. >> Yeah, he looks at himself. [laughter] He makes sure >> Step one. Yeah, step one. Step one, he makes sure his hair is still gone and then he's like, "Okay, great." >> [laughter] >> He's like, "This looks good." Yep. And then he just drops his bag. And by the way, bag it was one of those glitter bags. And so anywhere you put that bag, there's evidence that it's been there before. And [laughter] so there he puts a glitter bomb right here on the 40 inch table, right yeah. There's still like still a few of those in there with the sorry Jobie jar. >> [laughter] >> And then I take it out. There's a bag and there's a jersey in it and I see a red six. And I'm like, "Oh my gosh, he got me a Stan Musial jersey." And I'm like, "This is dope. This is awesome." And then I open the bag and then I undo the jersey. It is a signed Stan Musial jersey. And Browning's sitting right next to me and then we get on to talking about like baseball cards and all those types of things. And this was one of those times where like I had to like go to one of James' basketball games. So it was like we recorded one and then we came back later that night and recorded the the other three. And Browning came back with like a bunch of old Mickey Mantle cards, old Stan Musial cards and things like that. And they were they were kind of a little tattered, a little worn. And so these weren't going to be, you know, PSA 8, 9, 10 or anything like that. And then Browning eventually goes, "Hey, if you'll put the Stan Musial like you're going to frame that jersey, right?" I'm like, "Yeah." He's like, "If you'll put this card in the frame with the jersey, you can have this card." And I was like, "Are you serious?" And so by the next batch of recordings it will be up in the studio. So with with the the jersey and the card >> up, F. That's awesome. >> [laughter] >> I freaking hate the Cardinals. >> You can't hate Stan the Man though. >> I know. It's like I can't hate [laughter] Stan. You guys know I'm a huge, huge Chicago Bears fan. Yep. Correct. But also had the privilege of Reggie White being like a second dad to me. So I actually have a poster in my office with all my Bears stuff with Reggie White that says be a godly example. It's signed by Reggie White. So I have Packers gear so I get it. I get it. [laughter] So that's the difference not the team. But I mean so Reggie White you know, arguably the greatest defensive end of all the So how do you end up as a Bears fan when Reggie White is literally like a family friend? Like, this isn't like a dude that you saw at a signing event, whatever. No, he was like a friend of the family. How did you end up going with the wrong side of the ledger there? Because I was already a Bears fan before. My dad grew up in Illinois, and so we just kind of grew up Cubs, Bears, and fans. And then Reggie came along. I remember my dad came home, and he's like, throws me a Packers jersey. He's like, you got to wear this. I was like, you freaking crazy? I'm not wearing this. What's the relationship? How do you know? My So, my dad My dad was doing like some sports marketing stuff and got in touch with him, went over to his We lived in Iowa at the time, went over to his house in Wisconsin. Next thing I know, my dad's working for him. Wow. So, like, he would come stay at our house. Man, he's disciplined me a couple times, you know. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. He got me Is there a good story? I mean, there's got to be at least one. >> Hold on. Oh, actually, no one. Yeah. Yeah, now uh Did you get a whooping from Reggie White? >> a whooping one time from Reggie White. Did he just give you the club? Like he just [laughter] He chased me down the stairs. Chased me down the stairs, got me. I I I said something inappropriate to my mother. He was sitting on the couch, and my dad was not there. And like, when it came to Reggie White, my dad like I would always get in trouble for talking back to my mom or giving her a hard time, and they would always be traveling together. And so, they always played good cop, bad cop. And so, like, one time Reggie be the good cop, my dad be the bad cop, and the other time Reggie be the bad cop. And so, he would always like come back and forth. And so, yeah, like, he got me one time, and then he also blew me in for having an Aerosmith CD. >> [laughter] >> So, like, so like, we didn't really have a guest room cuz there was five of us in this house. And so, my room would be like like Reggie would sleep in my room, and I sleep on the floor. And one time I was like listening to I was listening to Aerosmith [laughter] in a [clears throat] like one of those compact CDs, and like all of a sudden I feel this tap on my shoulder. I pull my headphone off. I was like, yeah. He's like, what you listening to? And [laughter] I was like, for him, man, don't worry about it. He was like For him. So next [laughter] thing I know, man, it's about like 2 minutes later that light goes on and that CD player comes up and you if you if you have if you remember Aerosmith's Big Ones or greatest hits album, if you open the CD, it's a bunch of male nipples all the way around. So he opens it up and he goes This ain't NO FOR HIM. >> [laughter] >> AND SO AND SO LIKE GIVES IT TO my dad. My dad like talks to me about it, you know. Like my my parents were very charismatic. We could not we could not listen to like non-Christian music at that time. Like my mom had to listen to the lyrics of or read the lyrics of DC Talk's Jesus Freak the whole album before I could even listen to it. We're talking about DC like It's it's kind of funny because like when I was a kid it's like I finally listened to Goo Goo Dolls when I was like 14 or 15. But I'm the oldest of five and so I remember my bottom like my brothers who are younger than me, they're like 11, 12 listening to Blink-182. And I'm like I'm over here listening to Amy Grant. My [laughter] first CD My first CD was Amy Grant Heart in Motion. >> [laughter] >> Of course it was. My second CD that I got right after that was Petra No Doubt. And that was about as cool as you could get with Christian music was Petra. >> Okay. Yeah. Our childhoods were very different. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So no, but charismatic like So Amy Grant was your first Amy Grant was your first album? I It's either Amy Grant or Petra. I think I got them at the same time. Uh mine was TLC Crazy Sexy Cool. So that was my first CD that I got. Slightly different upbringings. Uh AC/DC Back in Black. That was your first CD? >> [laughter] >> You can be proud of that. >> First CD? Uh Collective Soul. Oh, that's cool. >> They're somewhat Christian. Let's go. Were they? Yeah, like the lead singer I think is No, they were Christian. No, no, they're not a Christian band but I think the lead singer is like a believer. That might be true. I mean a Hollywood believer. I mean you can look it up. I mean you do have a I do have a you that could help. But Hey, I want [laughter] to tell a great story about Reggie White though since we brought this up. >> hoping you would cuz I love the story. Okay, so I know where you're going. I love it. So I have I have alopecia. And uh >> Explain what that is. So I yeah, I I yeah. There's a reason I look like a naked mole rat and not like uh Jake. [laughter] So uh I have alopecia. I I got it like uh we moved to Iowa about third grade. It started around there. I started getting patches. And um about my seventh or eighth grade year, it was middle school. I woke up one morning and I was like no lie, I was like got out of the shower and I I had a big full head of hair like John Stamos. Like I had thick hair like John Stamos. >> Like your oldest son. That's that's like him and him. >> and but mine was like curly compared to his. Mhm. And um so I would and I had to grow it out long cuz I had bald patches, you know, I had to cover up. And so no lie, I was listening to Aerosmith's Don't Want to Miss a Thing that morning. Remember the song? >> song. Yeah. Putting on cologne. I >> [laughter] >> wasn't putting cologne on yet. No cologne on yet. Not yet. I did not spritz myself. So uh I like was doing my hair and I was fluffing it out to get the curls and I could just pull out >> Oh, wow. >> clumps of hair. Mhm. And I like I'm like I probably I think I said an expletive but I was like Or stern it. I was like >> [laughter] >> oh, blank, you know? And then I run upstairs and my mom, she's kind of like me and she's like oh, blank. >> [laughter] >> And my dad who's like the better one of us, you know, he's like hey, what do you who's talking that way and then he looks and he's like oh, man. And I was just pulling out clumps of hair. So they took me and shaved my head that day and I I that that was the last time that was that was probably around 1999. That was the last time I got a haircut was 1999. Um and then I found out after Reggie died. So Reggie passed away in 2004. And my dad and I went to the funeral. My dad spoke at his funeral. Um they were really close and we were flying back and my dad goes I never told you this, but when you all your hair fell out, Reggie went up to the school and talked to your principal and wanted to do an assembly to talk about alopecia." Mhm. And the principal was like, "Well, Reggie, we'd love for you to do an assembly, but I think he's going to be okay, you know?" And so >> Yeah. And so but like I never knew that. But that's that was the heart of Reggie White. Like I've been around sports stars uh all my life, you know, from from 6th grade Yeah. [clears throat] all the way up and none of them ever compare to Reggie White. Like I and it's sad because like for me it's like that's all I have to compare them so I can't even get down on them for like, you know, not living up to to somebody like Reggie White, you know? And but the guy just had so much character, so much heart, had a heart for people. Um, you know, I'm I might tear up but I yeah, I truly miss him. I mean, he's a he was a really good dude, you know, and and gave us a lot of wisdom. So and played some great football. So, you know, but yeah, no, great heart. But yeah, that was that's my Reggie White stories. So >> Well, man, I just I love that because when you hear Reggie White stories, there's a lot of stories kind of similar to that. And the [clears throat] thing I love the most is when I hear stories about what players or coaches or whatever do when no one's around. And so like I you know, I'm not an OU fan, I don't really care about OU football, but I heard uh what Bob Well, what would Bob do? Yeah, go ahead. So Stacy, actually Stacy used to work, my wife, Lady Winkler, uh she worked at OU Children's Hospital. So Bob like I think it's third year with OU, his daughter got really sick. It's in his biography. His daughter got really sick. They had to take her up to Iowa Children's Hospital. He prayed and was, you know, really, you know, was praying to heal her and she ended up being okay. Um praise God. But as part of that, he was like completely changed by the experience and so made it a point to go to OU Children's Hospital Oklahoma City and Stacy said he was there not it wasn't like he just showed up once a year. He would be there like once a week. He would bring players up there. He knew the children's names. He knew the parents' names. Uh my wife went to OSU and literally she is an OU fan solely because of how Bob Stoops acted and treated the families that she was interacting with on a cuz he would come and visit. Uh Stacy worked in child oncology. Um Stacy's tough lady. Yeah, man. >> Um so but [clears throat] she she was always just flabbergasted cuz it was just like and then when they would kind of be given that, you know, the the worst news, Bob would give them his private jet, his home in Florida. I mean, he would just make all the arrangements and they would get to go down there and kind of have one little last family time together. He's an impressive guy. Yeah, pretty cool. Yeah. I mean, I remember hearing those stories about Bob Stoops and like I remember Albert Pujols when he was still in St. Louis playing for the Cardinals cuz when he left the Cardinals his career was basically over. You know, who leaves St. Louis? >> [laughter] >> Anybody who wants to live. Big old losers. >> [laughter] >> But so he would he would do something similar. He would after after a big game, after playoff games, whatever, he would just drive to the children's hospital in St. Louis and then just go like interact with some of the kids. No and this was kind of like pre where you had to post everything online kind of deal and so like you know, he would just go and hang out with the parents and hang out he would sign for the kids and all that. No PR, no cameras, like you know, none of that type of stuff. And then years later I was talking to a gal who works for so it's not it wouldn't have been the comments who are the with the the triple-A team. So we've had some names. It was Red Hawks and then there was Dodgers and then there was comments. Yeah, but it was when we were just the Oklahoma City AAA team was the AAA affiliate for the Dodgers. And I remember her telling me the story about these AAA guys and none of these guys had made the jump quite yet, but a lot of them were right there on the cusp and this was at the time when the Dodgers had one of the best major league teams and then the best farm system. And so it was just kind of cool to get to see those kinds of players here locally. But anyway, she said, "I absolutely detest working with these players." And I was like, "What what do you mean?" She's like, "We will do these children's hospital visits. The players actually get paid to do those visits and they complain the whole time. They complain beforehand, I can't believe we got to do this. I'm busy, I got stuff to do. They complain when they're at the hospital, like all those types of things." And I'm like, "These are AAA guys. So some AAA guys are on decent contracts depending upon you know, where they were drafted. Some of them were drafted in the you know, 40th round and you know, they're lucky that they're even in AAA and probably are never going to go any higher and here they are complaining." And she was like, "This isn't one or two guys. This was most of the guys on the team. Anytime they would be on the rotation sheet to go and visit freaking dying kids in the hospital, they would sit there and bellyache. They play a child's game for a living and they're bellyaching about having to go interact with children that look at them like they're gods." >> They're playing a B movie child's game. Yeah. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. It's like godly. It's I I remember in high school we had like a whole wing where there were special needs students down there and the student council at that time we would actually they would ask us to go down and help out like at least once a week and they would rotate like okay, here's who's going. But there were so many of my you know, fellow students you know, in student council who were just like, yeah, I don't I don't want to go. Like they didn't like they didn't they didn't see the value in it and I went all the time. Mhm. It was um incredibly [clears throat] rewarding but I would offer to substitute. It's like, well, I don't really want to go down there and I'm like, I'll go. I'd I'll go in their stead. Here's the thing. I think if you're going to do something like that your heart definitely needs to be in the right place. Otherwise, I just don't know the what's the purpose in going. I'm I mean, I've never understood like I know why you should go but if you don't want to go, I actually would say just just say I don't want to go and I'm not going because you're not doing any good going up there and going through the motions. Yeah. Yeah, I don't I I don't really understand that. Like I I can barely even think about a children's hospital without getting upset and then you got these people that are like, you know, oh, it's just too inconvenient for them to actually go. I wouldn't want to go cuz it'd make me sad. >> [laughter] >> You wouldn't want to go? That's the only reason I wouldn't want to go. >> same. Yeah, I it'd make me sad. Other than that, I'd be happy to do it. Well, and I remember uh so when then we're going to to go and get into the verses, but I remember um whenever Willie Robertson was here in studio where I was taking him either to the hotel or back, um you know, to to the studio, whichever. And he was talking about um some of these times whenever he would get invited to go to these children's hospitals and all that and he would walk into these rooms and I mean, you have a kid that's could be hours away from passing, right? And so you have the whole family in there and it's just the worst possible situation. And he would walk in and start to get upset, but he said something shifted in him one day where he left the room, gathered himself and he goes I'm the Duck Dynasty guy. That's that's who they see me as. That's why I was invited here. I'm here to show them a good time, to give them a little bit of a reprieve and all those things. That doesn't mean you're not allowed to have emotions and it doesn't mean that you're not allowed to, you know, do all that, but then he went back in the room. He's like, "Hey, everybody." blah blah blah and he's showing the kids how to blow a duck call and he's like he's just being Willie Robertson, the the Duck Dynasty guy, the Duck Commander guy. And it's just the the mindset of being that type of person. It's where like, "Look, there's enough pain going on in this room. There's enough There's enough agony. Try to alleviate some of that. Try to take some of the burden off of these people." So, I love those stories. But, last last time we left off we got into the the first few verses of chapter 6. And so, we're going to be starting our discussion today on chapter 6 verse 5. But, Caleb actually, if you will just kind of bring everybody back into the fold here, read the first four verses of Romans 6 and then we'll move on from there. And what version are you going to be reading from? Uh NASB. All right, let's go. What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be. How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into his death? Therefore, we have been buried with him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in the newness newness of life. Absolutely amazing. Just tremendous truth for us to to really sit there and chew on. But, we're going to start the discussion now. We're going to get into verses 5, 6, and 7. So, that's a pretty good chunk right there. So, Caleb, go ahead and read 5, 6, and 7 and then we'll we'll jump off from there. >> [clears throat] >> For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of his resurrection. Knowing this, that our old self was was crucified with him in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin. For he who has died is freed from sin. So, there's a whole lot that we can discuss here. Obviously, for the next several chunks of Romans, you know, the question kind of looms, "Okay, then why do we still sin? Why do we still struggle with sin?" But, I really liked a commentary I read, a guy named Schreiner, on verse 7. So, for one who has died has been set free from sin. That's the ESV. Is that justification cannot be separated from sanctification? So, justification is boom, imputed righteousness, you are now justified in the eyes of a holy and just God, but the process of sanctification is the remainder of your time here on this planet. And how far you get and how fast you get there is kind of dependent upon you. And it feels like with, you know, justification, it's not by works so that no man may boast, but sanctification requires a lot from us. And so, let's go ahead and start our discussion there at 5, 6, and 7. I think when we look at sanctification, you're you're right that justification has to come first and then sanctification comes after, but we have to look at the bondage of sin in our nature. And so, when we look at that bondage, it made me think back of Jeremiah 17 17:9 talking of the sin of Judah um when he said the heart is deceitful among all others. And so, when we look at this and we look that we're crucified in Christ, our our heart is new. Um and so, and then we become, I think is what he's moving into is we're becoming a slave to righteousness rather than a slave to our own sin. What did What else do you What I mean I don't know. I I don't want to I went into this I I went into verse 5 and I got real focused on the word death here. Um Greek thanatos um which and then it's Obviously, we did not die in the flesh like Jesus did. So, I just I asked myself, well, how else did Jesus die? And that's actually a question. Cuz I was I was stumped cuz it's we died a death like his. So, how else did he die other than in the flesh? I don't know that you could rightfully say that he did die in any other way other than the flesh. Other than The flesh? I don't know if the flesh is actually talking about the actual flesh of a human being or is it talking about the heart? Well, it's it it dying dying it's if we've been united with him in a death like his. So, and that's that's where I was just like there seems to be a comparison here and I am not I'm not connecting on it. And I don't know if it's just that idea that you know, I mean Jesus taking on the sin of the world and taking all that sin down to hell to die a death taking our sin and dying dying that sin dying a death that if [clears throat] if it's if it's that like where our sin is I mean there's a death in sin or the death of sin through Christ. I don't know if that's the death like his. I I don't think that we should focus on the death and we should more really mostly focus on the resurrection. >> Well, but it's here. I mean there's this I don't disagree. >> die to sin but we're resurrected in him. >> a death like his and be united with him in a resurrection like his. So, the the rising in the newness of life I'm not I'm not struggling with. I was kind of just going like what is the death that we're dying? >> the focus that I think I think what we're dying to is we're dying to sin. I mean that's where it comes down that we have to understand the bondage of sin is our nature. So, we're dying to from our true nature into a Christ-like nature. >> let me let me throw this in there before cuz y'all y'all got a lot more arguing to go. That's later. [laughter] So, we can't be doing that too hard now. So, you're really focusing on the word death. I want to focus in here on the word like. Okay, so it's for if we have been united with him in a death like his. And so, in the Logos Bible software which guys y'all heard the commercial the pre-roll commercial Logos we have a tremendous relationship with them. We have the Undaunted Life Study Bundle. >> [clears throat] >> You guys have been 350 bucks on absolute nonsense and garbage. So, if you want to be spiritually resilient, if you want to lead your family, if you want to be able to catechize your children, you got to actually put in the money, put in the work. But whenever you double click on the word like, it brings up a word that I'm not going to try to pronounce, but it's uh similarity, likeness of form or appearance. And so I don't think I think it it's almost like it's more like a death akin to his. To where it's like it resembles his. So he he dies on the cross, he took on all of sin. And then he killed sin. I think is a way that you can look at it. He killed the penalty of sin. >> Yes, that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying, like that he >> [clears throat] >> that he killed sin. Yeah. I mean I think too like I can see where like with us like part of what we're dying to is our old self, right? Like I don't know how that translates to to Christ because he is who he is, he always has been, he always will be, right? So it I've that's to me seems a little different. Like we're dying to the way we were. You know, that's not necessarily the case for him, right? Well, what did he do before he died? He had no sin, right? He had no sin. >> Right, but like how was that the law? What did he do before he died? He absorbed the entirety of sin. He absorbed the entirety of sin and then he died. Right. So we're dying when he died our sin died with him. Mhm. [clears throat] And so so I guess similarly if we keep that going Jake, you know, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. >> Yeah. Because we we won't have a resurrection like his, it's going to be akin to his, the appearance of his. Because you know, he he absorbs all of sin, he dies, and he is resurrected given a new body. So for us in this this theme really continues for the rest of Romans six. >> Right. There there is a newness to us. There is a new revelatory nature of how sin manifests in our lives and you know, how we operate, you know, in relation to that sin. Yeah. What really popped out to me was we're no longer we no longer be enslaved to sin. I mean we've all heard like sing that song, no longer a slave to sin but a child of God. And that's the thing is is when I read this, the thing that really popped out to me is no longer being slave to sin. And it's like how much in our lives were we enslaved to sin before Christ opened our eyes. Like I was actually I was actually talking to my wife about this yesterday. And we were talking about our youth pastors. And I go man we had this youth pastor named Doug and I could never never like want to go to to to youth group because like all he ever talked about was like Jesus and Jesus' death and the resurrection. I was like he doesn't talk about anything else other than that. I remember I always complained about that. And I was like I was so enslaved to sin that I didn't even recognize the beauty of what Doug was trying to get across to me every Wednesday. I was like oh teach me the practicalness. Teach me a Bible story. Teach me this. But I could not open my eyes to the beauty of the gospel. Until my eyes were open to it now I we were talking about it last night. I was like man did I miss out on something great because of my own sin. I mean I think this whole you know the whole first half of this is it's talking about our relationship to sin, right? And [clears throat] I think a key part of that is what you mentioned Ryan which is about a slave. So we we don't think about I don't think we at least I know I don't think about myself as a slave to sin. I mean certainly before I accepted the Lord I was but even now like understanding that I've been set free from the consequences of sin but also the power of sin, right? And not not believing that and realizing that. But when you think of a slave and what they have to do you know they have a master obviously, right? They they serve someone. So one sure fire way to get out of that is to die. Yeah right. I mean or in terms of how can you escape or be released? Yeah, exactly. You have to look at slave as indentured servitude at that time too is what it's kind of being you know likened to is just like you owe a debt. You got to pay that debt or you die with that debt. >> And you have a master. Yep. You have a master now. Slave wasn't even a word yet. What was the word? >> Yeah, but >> [laughter] >> cuz I was the reason we we even had the English word slave is because so many Slavic people were were were taken and so by the Ottomans. >> Yeah, when you take again, if you if you actually want to do a deep dive into slavery, it's like it's going to bust up a lot of your presuppositions about who was enslaved and who was doing the enslaving and all the different things and so but that that's not necessarily this show. Um but but you're right. >> Oh, go ahead. I'm also curious on verse five, I mean is there any chance I I mean is there is he's talking of baptism here? Mhm. I had something from the Moody commentary from Logos pulled up. >> Well, I mean in four he mentions it, right? I mean buried with him through baptism into death. >> Yeah, so Moody says >> into his death for sure. Go ahead. Well, once he died, I mean I don't know if it has to I'll read this real quick and then we can go from there. The likeness of his death indicates a believer's experience of dying with Christ is not identical to his death. The believer did not die physically upon the cross, but the benefits of Christ's death are experienced when the believer trusts Christ. The union with Christ guarantees the believer resurrection with him in the future. The old self is not a reference to old sin nature. For Paul makes it clear in the passage that it's not a nature or part of the believer that is crucified, but the entire person. It is a reference to who the believer was in Adam under the mastery of sin. The person was crucified with Jesus on the cross and no longer exists. The believer is now in Christ, no longer in Adam under sin. Body of sin refers to the believer's body owned, dominated, and ruled by sin. Done away with means rendered powerless. Mhm. So. Yeah, I think I mean to your point, even with that in mind, it's okay, what is our what is our relationship to sin now? Which really gets into Jake, go ahead and read eight nine cuz that that's helpful as we continue this discussion. Verses eight and nine of Romans 6. Okay. Let me hold on. Now, if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again. Death no longer has dominion over him. Okay, so death no longer has dominion over him or mastery or control. We don't usually I really use the word dominion in in sentences anymore. But basically this the sin that we're experiencing, like sin no longer has penalty or power over us. That that's essentially where this goes because when Jesus absorbed it all, the penalty of sin, the wages of sin, which we'll get to at the, you know, very end of chapter 6, the wages of sin are death. But now there is no death if we are in Christ. And yet if we are in Adam, we are dead, dying, and heading towards eternal death all at the same time. And so I think that kind of goes to this as well. It's like, okay, what is what is our relationship to sin and how does it affect us not in terms of just the way we act, in terms of who we are, right? And the the overall trajectory of our of our spirit as well. Uh I mean, if you're looking I think essentially living with Christ automatically follows dying with him. Absolutely. So, if you're going to live with Christ, you're dying to your old self. I think Paul some of the language he's using here in Greek is refers back to old man. Like your old the old man. Right. Um but essentially, you know, one one always includes the other. Uh the looking at verse 5, like you're go even going back to verse 5, many interpreters think that living with Christ is something a believer has already experienced. So, Wait, say that again? Living with Christ is something a believer has already experienced. A a Okay, believer, yeah, yeah. Um, but it's interesting here in eight, you actually have some future tense language being used, which is likely referring to the coming day that when believers will be bodily raised with Christ. Well, I think when when we get into the dominion discussion as well, going back to the verse six, so verse six, we know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing or done away with, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. I loved a comment from Sproul's commentary, you know, we're no longer slaves, so we can no longer well, I mean, this was summary of the commentary, but it's like, we can no longer say, "I can't help it. I did this thing and I can't help it anymore." It's like, well, we don't really have that lane, but also, we have the grace to resist sin, but we don't have the liberty, because our liberty is weak, right? Our our our inner constitution, our um, our ability to resist is weak, and then that kind of goes back to the entire discussion of sanctification. So, our inability to walk out the dictates of a godly life all the time and in all circumstances is evidence that we need justification. Mhm. But the fact that we continue to stumble and continue to wrestle and gosh, we still have sin, hey, we're no longer slave to it, but we're on the sanctification journey now. Mhm. And so, that that I mean, I love that quote from MacArthur where, you know, the longer you've been a Christian, the less you'll sin and the worse you'll feel about it. Mhm. Because it's like, you know, you you begin to have mastery over a lot of the the sin in your life, but at the same time, when you do sin or when you do have one of those thoughts that is not of God, it's just like, "Oh my gosh, I'm still depraved. This freaking sucks." Mhm. Sproul Sproul talked about that because he Sproul had a smoking problem. Isn't that crazy? Yeah, that's really funny. >> to smoke cigarettes. >> grew up in an era where that was just like, you know, you just smoke cigarettes. It wasn't even a thing. >> ever listened to him, you know, it's not shocking. Yeah, well, I mean, [laughter] a little gravelly. Uh, that and the fact that he was on oxygen the last couple of years. But uh, but But he would tell a story about a professor like mocking him like when he was smoking cigarette with a straw just basically, you know, kind of coming down on him for smoking cuz And he goes, "Man, he goes, I know it's something that's doesn't help that my body, the temple, you know, like it's something I wanted to get past." But he was like, "It took me 10 years to go a whole 24 hours without smoking a cigarette. Then another 10 years to go a whole day." But like it was something he continually put >> is a day, I'm pretty sure. >> sorry. Uh a week. I'm sorry. [laughter] A whole week. >> Math hard. So, yeah. I I was thinking of 24 hour, you know, biblically, you know what I'm saying? >> [laughter] >> Are we going Are we going back to creation? Are we going back to creation? Dang it. Uh no. Uh but yeah, it's like it Even before Christ we're slaves to sin. And even with Christ we still are going to deal with sin. We're going to discuss that in chapter seven. I mean, chapter seven's all over that. Well, and I think for this discussion, let's go ahead Ryan, if you wouldn't mind, go ahead and read 10 and 11. So, we'll we'll be looking at kind of 5 through 11 for for a bit here. For the death he died, he died to sin once for all, but the life he lives, he lives to God. So, you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. Caleb, since you have the NASB, can you read 10 in the NASB? Yep. >> [clears throat] >> For the death that he died, he died to sin once for all, but the life that he lives, he lives to God. Okay, so I I wanted you to do that because I really want to key in on this and, you know, uh maybe this discussion will spill over into next week. Once for all. Hm. Okay, here we are. Limited atonement. So, when uh when Mark our our pastor was here uh at this table, I had him, you know, explain where the church falls on TULIP. And so, you have total depravity, unlimited uh or uh Limited atonement. No, it's uh unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and perseverance of the saints. And so, he says he's TULIP. TULIP. And so, he's not on the limited atonement train. And as I've said before, uh I feel like people on the limited atonement thing, a lot of people I feel like are saying the exact same thing, but the syntax is different. And so, they're just like ships passing in the night. Just right past each other saying the same thing. And it's like one of those times whenever you like nod emphatically and you go, "No." Right? It's just like, "Wait a minute. You were nodding." And then you said, "No." I'm confused. But, this is one of those things where whenever I was digging in, uh you know, once for all. Once for all. Okay, all. Who Who is all referring to? It's pretty clear. >> rather all-encompassing, right? No pun intended. And then in the Logos software, it has a reference to for for this part, it has uh once for all. And then it goes to Hebrews. Hang on one sec. I messed up. All right, here we go. Going back. Um it went back to Hebrews. One sec. >> [snorts] >> So, one sec. Goodness gracious, we're doing it live. So, um Wait. You wait. You wait, dad. I'm I didn't want you to be champing at the No, I didn't want you to have any dead air. >> Hey, I actually appreciate that. Yeah. And so, going back to verse 10 here, as I pulled up pulled up pulled up, here we go. All right, once for all. The reference is to Hebrews 7:27. And so, if we go to Hebrews 7:27, if I can. Goodness gracious, this is going poorly. All right, here it is. There's the hyperlink. He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered himself up. So, this is where I get confused. So, in the Hebrews passage, the writer of Hebrews, probably Paul, but we don't know for sure, it says, "Since he did this once for all." It seems to be a different uh cadence than the once for all here. Cuz the once for all here seems to be describing to whom he did this. And then the the passage in Hebrews is, "Since he did this once for all. So, it's more like a historical fact. Like, okay, since he checked this box, it doesn't really address the all part. And so, this is where I get kind of jacked up, and Jake and I have talked about this, but I thought Mark made a spectacular point when he was talking about baptism here at this table. He said there are basically five passages for people that are in traditions that think baptism is essential for salvation. There's about five passages that people like to focus in on. Right. But then there's like 150 passages that that talk about grace through faith, grace through faith, grace through faith, not through works that no man may boast. And he said, "A good, you know, way of operating is to look at the controversial passages in light of the overwhelming number of other passages that say something else. So, you don't judge the 150 by the five, you judge the five by the 150." And so, this is one of those moments where, yeah, I I see stuff talking about uh atonement, and I see uh you know, that's attached to election. You know, some people straight up are never going to do this, but it's like when he says he did this once for all, what does he mean? Like, all. That seems like all. What I've always thought, and I had I struggled with limited atonement, and what really got me on it was his death was sufficient for all, but only efficient for some. Say it again, cuz I think that's very important for people to chew chew on, but yes. His death was sufficient for all, but only efficient for some. So, it means he died for everyone, but his death is only efficient for the chosen. Sufficient for the chosen. >> Sufficient for the chosen. Okay. The elect. That's That's what brought me into the limited atonement account. That's where I can finally tell you I'm like a five-point Calvinist. But some people who are neo-Calvinists or however you want to call it, and I hate using the term Calvinist. I really, you know, >> It It's just It helps without having to explain. It's just one word to describe, yeah. >> Yeah. I just I disagree with Arminius's points that he had and and agree with the points that were made at the Canon of Dort. Um but >> Synod of Dort. I say Canon. But Isn't that similar to what you're saying though with saying [laughter] the same thing and just like missing each other? Yes. This is you whizzing right past one another. And really I'm just the whole uh this whole batch my job in this whole batch of forging tables is just to pull pins on grenades and then slide it to this side [laughter] of the table. That's the other reason why you two guys are on either side of the table and Caleb and >> Well, so we can't hug each other? Uh well, no, you'll be able to hug it out. I think Jake's got long Shrekky arms and so like he'll [laughter] be able to reach across the table. But that that that's a tripping point for me is on the limited atonement thing. It's like, "Okay, did Christ die for all or did he die for some?" Like those are those are categories and I feel like some of the arguments I hear about limited atonement, they they are making category errors the entire time. They're taking things outside of the world of all or some and they're making some third way argument and I'm like, "Uh that doesn't really address the all or some part." >> feel like that's a uh like grace is sufficient uh sufficient for all but efficient for some is like a third wayism. I think it's saying that God is powerful enough that what Christ did on the cross is powerful enough to save the whole world. Because it's a because it's been made available. >> It's been made available. >> But it hasn't been taken advantage of or uh put to >> Joby's analogy of the Chick-fil-A stuff coupon comes into play. Right. So. Which even that analogy falls apart and he would he would admit that and has before as well. And uh Captain Sunglasses over here has been awfully quiet and so I have no idea what that means but I he he's either waiting till the bottom of the ninth to kind of throw out some of his arguments or what? Like what are we doing here? Do you have to >> will be a time where you can't say anything and you have to like stop it right there. >> that's what he's planning [laughter] to do. That's what it's sounding like over here. No, I mean I don't know. I >> Come on, Top Gun. You do know. You've got [laughter] notes there. Wait. Okay, do you still know? >> No. No. >> I mean this guy's got a lady Bible. He's got like a lady iPad. I'm talking about Hey, Caleb has [laughter] graduated, okay? See? Does that have your name on it? You have your own camera this week so show them so everyone has the evidence. But does this one actually have all the books of the Bible? You put not yet. What still do you mean not yet? It's just not here. It's in its own little packet at my house. >> What are we missing? >> Just, you know, Just the beginning. >> and Genesis and Exodus? Okay, yeah. Who needs that in their Bible? So, let me let me I'm going to I'm going to quote I want to quote this is from Douglas Moo's commentary on Romans. Douglas Moo who was quoted by our pastor this morning. >> he got shout out, yeah. Um so, as postmodernism has emphasized to an extreme unnecessary degree at time, every reader brings his or own context to a text. Each of us reads the New Testament out of our own situation, children of certain parents, members of a certain church, adherents of a particular theology. We cannot, of course, escape our context, but we can recognize what it is and allow for it as we read the New Testament so that we do not simply read our own biases into the text. The significance of and I I actually prepared this whole thing based on Baptist. So, like I have completely missed the mark on where this was actually going. It's always next week. >> Yeah, well, I mean No, we might fire you. >> [laughter] >> But I mean here's my I'm really trying. Um Russell I I actually Russell used just a few weeks ago talked about like not wanting to help like I don't want to make my Calvinist brothers stumble. Uh people who think that way. And I told you this before like I'm I've been real convicted lately on just, you know, I'm not going to win anything here. God doesn't need my defense. Um I've just been real convicted lately over maybe it's not like for me to try and defend. Maybe I need to just go to the word and actually take my biases out of it and take just listen to what God is telling me. You know, as far as, you know, the five articles of remonstrance or the you know, the TULIP. I mean, I guess I've just kind of gotten to the point where it's just like I've gotten weary Yeah. of the debate. Yeah, I feel that. It's secondary. I mean, it's not Yeah. We've get so focused on it. I mean, it's like I don't honestly, I don't care how I was saved. I only care if I was. You know, [clears throat] and yeah, that's kind of where I've started just to land. It's like we talk so much about how and we have no freaking idea. None. And where I've actually started to just land is, okay, let's just let me focus a lot more on who saved me and following him and listening to him because if I continue down the path that I am, I feel like I'm just going to get lost in my own bias in scripture and I just that's not healthy. Well, I think it's it's a good it's a good idea to remove our presuppositions and our biases when we bring it to the text cuz again, we're we're in this post-enlightenment era as just people that exist in 2026. It's post-enlightenment. And so, every time we're trying to even evaluate the the stories of scripture, you have people that are just basically like, well, wait, where's where's the written evidence? No, there needs to be evidence and there needs to be hyperlinks and there needs to be all these other people and there has to be this many lines of reasoning and blah blah blah. That's post-enlightenment thinking. If we were existing in the year 842, we would not be thinking that way. But I I feel like what I've tried to do, and I really like the visual that that Joby has is he will hold his Bible up. Yeah. And then he says, where are you in reference? Where are your feelings and preferences in reference to this? Do they stand on top of the Bible as a foundation or are they below it? Okay, like like what are you what are you doing? Hey, my stuff is up here. Yeah, Bible Bible Bible, but also the DSM-5, but also the party platform for the RNC, also this that or or Or is it down here? So, what what becomes hard, Jake, and where you and I really agree is it's like, okay, there's there's what I think is in the Bible. There's what I wish the Bible said. There's what the Bible actually says. And then there's what the heck does it mean? Yeah. And so, we're all kind of in one of those areas like as it you know, references to the text because this is what Adam and I I love that you know, we've been able to see Adam uh be very open about his development and how he's uh really evolved over the last few years of being on the Forging Table cuz for him, he was in like well, uh you know, there's what I think is in the Bible. Because he just assumes it's there. He's been in Christian school his whole life. He's been in church his whole life. So, he's what what he thought was in the text. Then he went to the text and he's like, "Oh crap, this is just what what the text says." And then it's like, "Well, shoot, this is what I wish it said. But it doesn't say that. It says this." And so, now he's firmly in that last category, which is like, "So, what does it mean?" And that's that's part of the issue here is like, "Okay, so we can read these words." And where I do think it is actually applicable, Jake, and and helpful as we you know, kind of round to a close here is, "Okay, well then how to how can our understanding of the points of Calvinism or Arminianism or whatever, how can that help us in our discipleship journey?" Mhm. How is someone discipling us? What is their foundation? Where are they where you know, kind of what lens are they using to teach us with? You know, in your sanctification journey, how are the things that you can know affecting how you act? Because you know, getting to the very end on on verse 11, you know, our new life must lead to new actions. And so, for some people, they're they can't even focus on what the new actions need to be because they're so overwhelmed with, "Okay, well how did I even get to where I am now?" >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean, and the other thing is, Kyle, I mean, I'm discipling a I'm discipling a young man right now who's really going through some things, you know, just going through a divorce and um I you know, I recommend this podcast to him. I mean, I recommend The Daily Blade to him. And the last thing I kind of I was talking to Stacy about this and I she was like, you know, you're recommending the podcast. You know, if you're going on there and it's just like a debate over and over again, you know, is that going to be something healthy for him to see? And I'm like I think so. It could be. But if you know why I would say yes >> to Lady Winkler, I would look her right in her intimidating [laughter] face and I would be like, do you listen here, you sweetie pie? This is what I got to say to you. I would say, look at So, we we talked about this this morning. So, when I don't remember where it was, I think we were in Matthew when when Ryan and Adam kind of got in a dust up, but only you you kind of like took some stuff personal and you came back later and realized that you you maybe had had the wrong viewpoint of stuff. Adam didn't quite feel the same way, but we had to kind of clear the air off air. After that episode released, Joby sent me a message and basically said, best forging table ever. And I was like, why? He goes, cuz you can tell that you guys, you and Adam, fervently believed in your opinions in that moment, you were willing to defend it to one another and that you loved each other. Now, he didn't know that that you left feeling, you know, some kind of way and that you had to kind of circle back and all that, which you want to raise [clears throat] your hand if you're the person at this table that hasn't had to do that before. Yeah, no no hands being raised. Oh, no, I'll even talk about it in seven. Yeah, exactly. [laughter] Well, exactly, but I think that was the thing that was helpful is when you get to see guys that are lay Christians that are digging into this, digging into the Bible enough, digging into commentaries enough to where they can try to elucidate their opinion and where they fall on core categorical things. That's where something like TULIP is helpful because you can look at here are five categories of debate. Let me see where people fall on either side and where what what authority are they appealing to? Their opinions, their feelings, or to what the scripture actually says. But the other thing is too is this actually has to do with the scripture that we're reading. You know, it it has everything that we're we're talking about is a part of this. So like at some point we're not going to agree on everything. I don't agree with everybody on everything. I didn't even agree with the person who brought this up to me when I first started to discuss it because I grew up a charismatic Christian. So a lot of this was eye-opening for me, but the hard part for me is it's in the text and if it's in the text we have to discuss what's in the text. >> But hold on a second. Let me Let me push back on that. Tell me Tell me one theology out there who can't say who would not say what's in the text. Tell me one. Calvinism. Uh complementarianism. >> [laughter] >> Well, I'm just I'm just saying >> You can debate the text. >> single Every single theological movement out there would say but it's what the Bible says. I mean >> [laughter] >> Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. But let's Okay, well, look at Luther himself okay? Luther actually came out and said that James should not be in scripture based upon the faith without works is dead. Yeah, because that was eisogetical. I Fair enough, but what I'm saying is every single one every single one Well, but you're taking eisogetical scripture, too. How? Where? Everywhere where basically starts talking about election and predestination. >> Because No, 100% it's true. >> true because if you take isolated passages of the Bible and use them to support your argument. No, I don't. You do. I'm using the text. I use the same text as everybody else and just to point out the Adam thing No, let me finish this real quick. Just to point out the Adam thing, when we started talking about that, we go back to Matthew and you want to look at my notes, none of it had a Calvinist bent or sovereignty or election or any type of atonement. I can show you those notes. That's why I was taken off guard and that's why I was upset about the interaction that went down. >> Yeah, I want to talk about baptism today. So, yeah, you want to talk about baptism. [laughter] Sucks to be you. >> up limited atonement. Kyle brought up limited atonement. >> be throwing me under the bus, [inaudible]. This is my show. >> to say he wants to come in here and he wants to say that I bring in all of this. I didn't. So, time out. All right. I didn't say you did. >> Hey, no, you just said I did. Can we take the tape back? I said that you bring in isolated scripture when you talk about it. Yeah, I just turned both of y'all's microphones off. This is my show. I get the last [laughter] word. We may see about turning your microphones back on next week, but this is what I will say. This is the point that I would concede to what Jake is saying. Yes. Because when I've listened to debates on Calvinism, Arminianism, or young earth, old earth, or blah blah blah, all these different things, everyone, I think where you were kind of going, everyone will proof text, right? They will snag a a individual scripture or snag a section of scripture out and say, "This says this, thus this supports my worldview." So, they're backing into scripture as opposed to using the scripture as the foundation to build the scaffolding for their worldview. The issue becomes everyone is doing that, but are they doing it in an equally valid way? Which is what the the point that I think Ryan is making. To where it's like, "Okay, you'll have someone that says, 'Well, that's what the Bible says.'" But then when you go to the text, it doesn't say what they think it does, right? So, that's where the issue uh starts, and that's where we'll start our argument next week. So, uh no one can even hear y'all laughing or what you're saying. So, yeah, talk to your heart's content. It's just me and Caleb right now. Duo show. But hey, before we let you guys go, we are going to do a quick Resurgence Boost. Adonai Life Mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Next week we're going to get into verse 12, but before we get to all that, just know the Logos Bible Software, we got the Adonai Life Study Set. That's all in there. If you go to the show notes, there's a Crossway Forging Table Starter Set as well. And we are donation-based ministry. So, if you want to see knuckleheads get on here and continue arguing with one another, we can't do it unless you give us money. Uh we we This is why we do it. We are prize fighters here at this table, and the only way that we're able to pay everybody here, even though they're all volunteers is because you guys donate. So, if you want to hop on board, support us on our mission to equip men to push back darkness, undaunted.life/donate or check out the link in the show notes. Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five-star review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@undaunted.life. That's i n f o @undaunted.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook, and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www.undaunted.life. And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is their song Perpetua, which is off their self-titled debut album on Facedown Records. The links are in the description. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience, keep seeking the lion of Judah. >> [music] [music]