Hey guys, real quick. So, I've talked to men literally all across the globe about where they're missing the mark and how they want to improve. They normally talk about how they wish they were in better shape, they wish they had a better relationship with their loved ones, they wish they had more success and influence at work and some other stuff like that. But, here are some of the most common and biggest things that I hear. I wish I knew more about the Bible. I wish I could lead my family spiritually. I wish I could recall more scripture. I wish Bible study wasn't such a struggle. Well, guys, I've got news for you. You don't have to keep wishing. It's time for you to start doing. It's time for you to stop wasting your time and money on stuff that has no eternal value whatsoever. I keep hearing you talk about how you want to be more biblically literate and spiritually resilient, and now is your chance to prove that you mean it. That's why I want you to take advantage of our partnership with the most powerful Bible software on planet Earth, Logos. So, Logos approached me about putting something together for the Undaunted Lifers out there, and we collaborated to create something I'm super pumped about, the Undaunted Life Study Bundle. So, here's the skinny on the bundle. There are over 200 individual resources, and they include titles from authors like Voddie Bauckham, Charles Spurgeon, R.C. Sproul, John MacArthur, Matt Chandler, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, William Lane Craig, Paul Washer, John Stott, Doug Wilson, Paul David Tripp, J.I. Packer, and a whole bunch more. And there are so many helpful resources in there. There's Bibles, commentaries, Old and New Testament study guides, devotionals, systematic theologies, courses dictionaries histories encyclopedias, non-fiction books, and more, and more, and more. And here's the most insane part about this deal. If you were to buy each individual resource by yourself inside of Logos, it would cost you over $3,000. $3,000. But, if you get the Undaunted Life Study Bundle, you'll get all 200-plus resources for just $349.99. Guys, that's $3,000 worth of stuff for 350 bucks. Guys, that's almost 90% off. And you know that you waste more than that on the hobbies that you have right now all the time, and these won't help you with your discipleship and sanctification journeys, right? It's time to get real and take control of your Bible study and spiritual development. Click the link in the show notes for this episode. If you want the link, it's logos.com /undauntedlife. That's www.logos.com/undauntedlife or the link in the show notes. It's super easy to sign up. Again, go to the show notes and click the link or go to logos.com/undauntedlife, sign up for Logos, and get the Undaunted Life Study Bundle right now. >> [music] [music] >> This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. Welcome back to the Forging Table. Why are you laughing? The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. At the Forging Table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience by digging into God's word, and we are welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with us. That's Winkler, that's Horn, that's Caleb. Guys, we just did a nice little dinner, right? So, we're all full. We're going to do these uh next couple weeks worth of recordings. But somebody on the last podcast mentioned the lovely Lady Boyd, who sent her awesome husband, Dagan here with not just any bottle of whiskey, but a bottle of Macallan 18. >> Mhm. And so, I just thought, you know, I'm glad I made >> Things got a little testy a couple weeks ago between these two uh yuck [laughter] yucks over here. And so I thought We hugged it out. >> Yeah, y'all did hug it out. But this is that bottle from Lady Boyd. >> [clears throat] >> Did you break the cork on this one? I did not break the cork on this one. That is a stressful thing when you get an expensive bottle that's been sitting for a while cuz I if you ever have bottles sitting you should have every now and then just kind of go up and like give it one of those. Let that cork get a little bit wet if there's not a synthetic cork in there. But no, didn't have to do all that. But yeah, we need to have some official glasses that we do this little tasting with. And so you know if you get one of those like little chodey whiskey glasses you don't really get the the fluted nose or whatever. So you have to have a Glencairn, right? So that g l e n c a i r n Glencairn. That is the official glass that you should drink a lovely scotch like Macallan 18. But I thought what would be most appropriate is if we had the biggest forging tabler >> [laughter] >> Have the smallest Glencairn and so I want to see that in his hands. So >> [laughter] >> so Jake go ahead and lean into my frame so that we can see go ahead and put that in your big old paw there. Where did it go? [laughter] Where did it go? There it goes. Camera one check it out. All right, that's your little wee Glencairn. Feel like Gulliver. Yeah, [laughter] that's pretty nice. And then for Ryan we're going to step it up just a little. >> [laughter] >> Does this one have hair? So it doesn't have a bottom on it but that's a Strana Hands glass. Shout out Strana Hands from Denver, Colorado. And then Caleb Just a normal Glencairn glass. It's got Oklahoma State OSU Cowboys on there. And then I'll just I guess I'd rather have my little one. I guess I'll just [laughter] have this one. Somebody's making up for something. Somebody's making up for something. I don't [laughter] know what you're talking about. This is just the size of a glass. I just happened to grab this. I I I Irish cursed. So it's [laughter] fine. Hey, what are you talking about Irish cursed? Leprechauns. So guys feel free to pour yourself some lovely libations while we get into this. So guys we've been in Romans 6 for a while. We've had some fun the last couple of weeks. Uh we're going to get down to business here. We're going to see how far we're going to get. And guys, as you know, as we've talked about with every uh batch of these, we're approaching Romans very, very differently, right? So, we had done, you know, Nehemiah and Matthew and Acts, and we've done all these things where we're just going TO >> [laughter] >> IT'S A BIGGER GLASS, YOU KNOW? >> [laughter] >> YOU JUST YOU JUST DRIPPED. YEAH. 18-year-old scotch all over the word of God. And for all of you out there just listening to this, Actually, that's the word of horn over there. >> that's the word of horn. He [laughter] golly. He gave me a splash of scotch, not even a And he got it all over the table. He's He's just He just made his notes scratch and sniff. It's no big deal. >> Yeah. What is happening? That's all right. I want you to smell like booze when you're walking around. I am smell like scotch. >> All right. Especially that scotch. To the Apostle Paul. Yeah. Slainte Slainte Mhath. That is, I believe, Irish ancient Gaelic for "To our health." So, there we go. Macallan 18, ladies and gentlemen. That's smooth. Oh, man. It's so wonderful. It's so wonderful. The Macallan does it right. So, last week, we stopped off um in verse 15. And so, now [clears throat] we're going to kind of move on. And as Paul's been talking about, we've been having I mean, of all the things to have in there as a memory rhyme, I mean, you having a couple of drops of Macallan uh 18, you might actually write that as a note on there. Like, what those what those uh little little drops are so you don't forget when you look back at your notes. Yeah. Uh but, we're going to go in and get into uh the latter part of Romans 6 right now. And so, Caleb, if you would do us the great honor of reading the words of Apostle Paul, we're going to go ahead and do verses 16, 17, and 18 of Romans 6. And he'll be reading from the NASB. You bet. Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you're slaves of the one whom you obey. Either of sin resulting in death or of obedience resulting in righteousness. But thanks be to God that through you were slaves of sin or that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed. And having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. So, I'm going to be honest. You keep reading this section and you keep getting peppered with the same thing kind of same thing thematically as Jake pointed out last week. A lot of, you know, slave language and I I don't know if if one of y'all has your Logos up whenever slave or enslaved is talking about is it is it doulos because there's several different words because doulos basically means more so like bondservant. But I'm still just kind of struck, you guys, with even with the section with the same question that I wrote in the margin here in my great Crossway Romans Bible journal with the scripture on the left and the note pages on the right, then why do we still sin? Yes, we're no longer enslaved to it. Our relationship [clears throat] to it has changed as I mentioned like, you know, we got to go to war against it but you know, the penalty of sin is no longer there. The power of sin is no longer there. But the impact of sin still is and we still sin. I mean, and gosh, there are fervent believers in Jesus, disciples of Jesus that along their sanctification journey, there's also a way to destruction where they they don't make mistakes as Ryan pointed out last week. We're not mistake-ers in need of somebody to, you know, right our wrongs. We are sinners in need of a savior. And so, we're sinning against God, we're sinning against each other and I'm just still even in the section 16, 17, and 18, I'm just still almost haunted by that word. You know what I mean? And I I I looked it up on Logos and sir, it means servant servants too. Is it word doulos? Is it is that the Greek that you see there? I'll look it up as well. >> [clears throat] >> But I don't I don't have to read it. >> It's doulos. Okay. In verse 16? Mhm. Okay, so that word my understanding is more like bondservant. So, this is not like chattel slavery like No. I don't Later it's doulos. I don't think anything in in regards to slavery during Paul's time has anything to do with chattel slavery. Has everything to do with uh indentured servitude. Uh I mean, just reading some Sproul's commentary on it and MacArthur, they always move back to indentured servitude, not chattel slavery. Yeah, I mean Let's say it was. Let's say it was. Okay, let's let's say it was. I mean This is something uh I was I was going back and forth cuz you know at one point in some of the previous ones, which we'll go back to it, but he uses like two different words for knowledge. Right? And I think we can sometimes dissect that when sometimes these can be stylistic choices, they can, you know um I I liken it to if I say you're a coach or you're a manager you mean the same thing. Right? So, even if it's whether it's bond servant in you know, if it's servant or it's bond servant or slave, like whatever that might mean sometimes it is just truly like these are just synonyms. He's just using different He could just be using different language. Sometimes again maybe don't get lost in the sauce too much on I mean, I always I always go back to Jesus and Peter and agape agape phileo, right? And just using those different words. It's like, well, did it mean something different or did it mean something the same? I don't I don't know. Well, and even when you look at doulos, I mean, so the the um the Greek lexical information that I'm getting from there so, it's servant or slave refers to someone who is the property of another, right? So, this is bond servitude. This is you owe me or you're you're too poor to live. Like I'm going to feed you and house you, but you have to work for me for X period of time. People were at my understanding is rarely were you a doulos for the entirety of your life. This was like a a temporary state. For Jewish you couldn't be. Yeah, and so Yeah, after 7 years. Right. And so in verse 16, you are slaves of the one whom you obey. Well >> Like that's that's big. That's why I think we we do kind of have to look at what they mean with doulos because >> not saying you're wrong. No, no. And what just why I'm pointing that out is because as we get into how church leadership and church eldership is coming up many people are called deacons, you know, and deacons is is a servant of the church and um if you look at if you go back and you look at, you know, when deaconess and deacon and all that stuff is used it's used as a servitude not as more of an elder of a church. And so that's why it's just like I hear where you're going like does it really matter? In this in this context I don't think it does. You know, in other context sometimes that Greek does matter. >> You you you're trying to read things in context and you see two different words being used. And so like I said, it's sometimes it's taking the context in which it's been written um and who [clears throat] is he actually speaking to the you know, idea of the inductive Bible study and like going okay, it's who who who's he talking to? And sometimes when you start talking about like oh sometimes these words will matter. Like the fact that you're using different ones, it does matter. And sometimes it's just stop reading so much into the scripture. Well, if we get into seven when he talks about flesh like Right, really wants to get into seven. Well, no, I'M JUST SAYING >> [laughter] >> I SPROUL KIND OF SPROUL kind of like showed like what flesh means because there's the flesh of our sin flesh and there's actually like the flesh flesh. And like you you've got to like pay attention to, you know, they use the same word. So you have to pay attention to the context. [clears throat] And so it's like it's strange. But like no, like that's where I never thought Greek was a big deal. Um but there was a guy in our class sadly he's passed away, Charles. Charles was really big on the Greek. Like he'd hit you with Greek all the time and you you would learn and glean a lot of uh from him just based upon the wording. Well, in the Greek language is so much more descriptive and all-encompassing. And so, that's why when you go and look because you'll have uh dorks on the internet or pseudo pastors that will say things like, "Hey, Jesus never talked about abortion. Jesus never talked about uh marriage, much less gay marriage, blah blah." Aside from those things just being abjectly false, um you have to look at, okay, we're reading If you do a word search for abortion, you will not find it in the text in English. You won't find it. You also aren't going to find nuclear weapons. You're not going to find methamphetamine. >> You're not going to find the Trinity. Yeah, you're not going to find the word Trinity, right? Right. And so, there's a difference when something is named, listed, or described, right? So, that that's obviously very important. But also, you have individuals that whenever Jesus was talking about sexual immorality, even in cuz he would have said it in ancient Galilean Aramaic is how he would have spoken it, but it would have been written down originally probably in the Greek, and then, you know, eventually in the Latin, Germanic, English, you know, the down the whole way until we get to, you know, our modern our Bibles. But whenever [clears throat] they use the word porneia, everybody in the audience would have known what was being described. And I can't remember who it may have been Josh Howerton, I think he said something like this. He's like, "If I were in a room with 100 people, and my wife was in there, I could spend the time cuz it's me, my wife, and 98 other human beings. I could spend the time saying, 'That's not my wife. That's not my wife. That's not my wife. That's not my wife.' Or I could just say, 'This is my wife.'" And so, people again, this post-enlightenment type era, they wanted everything listed out. Well, Jesus never said the word abortion. He's never said the word transgender. He never said the word, you know, gay marriage or something like that. But the word porneia would be a description of sexual immorality that was anything outside of the covenant sex between one man and one woman that were joined in holy matrimony before a holy God for their entire lifetime or until death, right? And so, you don't have to ask the question, "Well, what about this? Well, what about this? Well, what about this? It's just basically does that fall outside of one man, one woman in a covenantal marriage before God? It does. Okay, yes, that is sexual immorality. But, it's this it's this word game that people love to play and it's just they they try to make themselves sound smarter than they actually are. >> It's like saying that God never said anything about, you know, you couldn't run over someone with your car and kill them that way. >> [laughter] >> You know, it's like well, he did say something about murder though. >> Yeah. Right. So, if I intentionally run somebody over with my car, that's not murder. Stop it. Yeah, it's not in there, man. It's not It's not in here. That's the problem. Well, you tried to fight me in public because I honked at you and you didn't know it was me. You were ready to throw down in the Paseo district of all places, speaking of gay. [laughter] As a As a passenger in Kyle Thompson's truck, I can I can attest to this. Yes, you [laughter] can attest that I did not say any four-letter words. No, I cannot attest. >> My wife was there and she said I did not. I I I I actually believe that. I don't know, but you definitely weren't Yeah, whatever. I was not happy. She [laughter] did She did say that. He said four-letter words with his hand motions. >> your point, I do have a question. So, okay, kind of again going back to context. So, porneia, I would say that the Jewish people for sure would know what sexual immorality was. But, if Paul's talking to someone who's not within [clears throat] the Jewish faith, would they know what sexual immorality was? Well, if you look So, there's the um going back to Genesis, we have where marriage is instituted by God and introduced by God as one man and one woman. And so, they wouldn't have they wouldn't have needed a further explanation if if people knew knew the Old Testament, right? They wouldn't need a further explanation of like, well, what about this? Well, what about this? It would have been outside the bounds of morality. And then also, to answer your question, when we talk about, you know, earlier on in Romans when you talk about the moral law or the law of nature, obviously, so just take this take this as an example. A homosexual union between two men, right? A sexual union between two men that are homosexuals. If you're an atheist, that relationship makes no sense because you can't propagate the species. Right. Right? And so even if you take New Testament, Old Testament text, you take, you know, a religious understanding of morality or all those things off the table, it has no utility to the propagation of the species. But then when you enter into a Christian morality and Christian morality shows that the only sex that is acceptable and God-honoring is that between one man and one woman in holy matrimony, that also excludes two men. Yeah. >> Yeah. To answer your question though, I I don't tend to agree like if they, you know, it's it's like dying to sin and walking in a new life, right? Like if you haven't been saved and died from your sin, like you're not going to be convicted on convicted on things you don't know are true. That's yeah, that's kind of where I was going. It's I mean I mean like the multiple wives thing is perfect example. Sure. I mean, but like okay, what was sexually immoral to the Greeks or the Romans? Right. >> Essentially nothing. Right. So if I'm saying porneia and and to them, they're like okay, sexual immorality which does go back to okay, if you are going to follow Christ, there is a true dying to old self. Mhm. And so [clears throat] uh it it like I said, but that's going to even now, like okay, people people now who will say, well, but the Bible does not outlaw this explicitly. Now, to the Jewish people, they would have known exactly what this is. Mhm. When he says porneia, sexual immorality, that's outlined in the Torah. They say, here is what you cannot do. This is what this is you know, they put boundaries on it. What I but at the same time if there's Romans reading this or Greeks reading this or frankly Ottomans reading this, then they would have had a very different view of what would be acceptable. And if they decided at that point to follow Christ, it's like okay, sexual immorality is within here. Are you prepared to die to that? So I think there's a So with the the natural law and the law the law that is written on our hearts, we go back to Romans 1. There is knowledge of morality that is inherent. Like that that comes via the via the cosmos, via nature, like that God gives to us that we know. Then people can basically add to it, and that's where the law comes in to where it's like, "Hey, let me be more specific. Let me put a finer point on this. This is exactly what I mean." And so but it again it comes back to the we could describe all the bevy of sexual proclivities and and outworkings and actions, or we can just describe what is moral. And it's like, "Okay, everything outside of this is immoral." But I I get your point. It's like, "Well, what was their what was their plausibility structure for any type of sexual immorality when >> And I I looked it up. So under Christian, Jewish, and Greco-Roman standards, including adultery, incest, and homosexuality is what porneia meant. So anything outside of the is illicit sexual activity outside the bonds of marriage. As defined by 1st century Christian, Jewish, and Greco-Roman standards. Well, but I'm saying, "Okay, so but what what are what are they carrying in? Like if I was Greek. Okay, so like for example, pederasty was extremely common in ancient Greece. Yeah. Okay. Would they consider that sexually immoral? I think they would. Because if they're into that, then then and they're probably married, even though it might have been a common practice that wasn't like Yeah. viewed upon, but it was still viewed as something you probably shouldn't do. >> look, I'm not I'm I'm I'm definitely not the trying to defend any of this. Like I yeah, I'm I'm more just like again, just trying to go back to that context. It is who's Paul talking to? And and and if he's talking to the Jewish people here, >> [clears throat] >> which I kind of think he is, um that means that's got a heavy meaning to them. >> But if you're if you're involved in ped- pederasty, uh like as a like as a It's well, it's not a common word that anyone uses anymore, [laughter] but like if you're if you're involved in that, um you would have people that would be they would have a a marriage, a man would have a marriage to a woman, but they would get their sexual satisfaction from a boy, right? And they that was culturally normal. But if we if we go back to Romans 1, the the idea is that they inherently knew that something was wrong and disordered about that, but in Greek life, everything was about hedonism. Yeah. Right? Cuz we we we weren't we were flesh at that point. And so we don't exactly know, did the Greeks actually believe in in Zeus and Athena and all that, or did they just act as if, "Hey, these are these are our myths, like these are our foundational myths as a culture, and we're just going to show respect or deference to them." But I don't think they had any concept that there was going to be you know, a a cosmic counteraction to their decisions, uh morally, if that makes sense. And I I was just pointing that out as to say is like more than likely if he used that word, he used it in a context that the Greeks and the Romans would understand that is something outside the context of marriage. So any sort of sexual proclivity. Yeah, but but even getting back around to your point, Jake, I think that people they would have understood because you could say the same thing, "Well, what about the people that didn't understand Greek? What about the people that didn't understand Hebrew? What about the people that didn't speak speak ancient Gal- Gal- Galilean Aramaic or something like that?" It's just it's the same thing if somebody were to say something to us in Spanish and we don't understand what they said, and then we ask an interpreter to give us an honest interpretation of what was just said, and they did so, then we use our language, our lexicon, our context to be able to judge what what they said or to operate based on what they said. And so I don't what I don't I don't necessarily too valuable to get super wrapped around the axle as to did the people reading this or hearing this understand what the word porneia meant? It's like in their context you might have to use different words. Which goes back to my original point which is that the Greek language could say more by saying less, whereas in the English language we just round and round uh just to say the same thing. I guess I would say I'm highlighting it somewhat. I'm highlighting the battle that you actually are under even right now. Okay, so what what would Americans right now define as sexually immoral? Any sex outside the context of marriage. We would. We would, but I'm saying non-believers. Yeah, they would they would say anything that's consensual. Correct. Is moral. It's it's so Yeah, consent is the highest law. Right. So imagine okay, imagine you're trying to spread the gospel and you're trying to tell someone about Jesus and why they need him. And and this they run [clears throat] across this. How are you how are you going to dis- I mean >> Let's go back to Romans 1. Yeah, yeah. Romans 1:18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men. Sexual morality would certainly be in that. >> Yeah. Who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them because God has shown it to them. And you know, just I'll go ahead and read 20. For his invisible attributes, namely his eternal power and divine nature have been clearly perceived ever since the creation of the world in the things that have been made so they are without excuse. So my argument to that would be it's kind of like when somebody says something. So you know when like a a politician, regardless of you know, what color tie they wear, when a politician gets cornered by like a media person that's on the opposite side. So a Republican gets cornered by someone at you know, MSNBC or you know, a you know, a a liberal person gets cornered by Daily Wire or something like that. And they basically put them to something where they know what's right, but they can't do it. The best example I've seen of this recently is when Donald Trump at the State of the Union address basically said, you know, stand up and clap. You know, you you have this chamber full of of lawmakers on both sides of the aisle. Stand up and clap if you think that our first responsibility is to protect Americans. Right. And the thing is a bunch of Democrats agree with the statement, but they could not be seen on camera standing and clapping for anything that Donald Trump said. And so there's what they will say publicly. So after your point, there's what they would say is acceptable sexually, but there's an inherent knowledge that is wired into them as homo sapiens, as humans or whatever, that what is what they are saying is right is not right. >> Sure. Let's say like I'm a non-believer and anything consensual is okay. My my wife wants to go and be with another man. Right. Well, I I'm standing on the definition that you know, moral sex is anything that's consensual, now I have to Yeah. be okay with that. I have to be okay with that. But are they really okay with that? It's just like what Kyle said. [clears throat] You know, they won't stand and clap for it even though, you know, Oh, you you You know what, Ryan? That's a very interesting point. Well, so to to his point, that actually happened. There was a documentarian that that went [laughter] Well, obviously obviously that has happened. But there was a a documentarian that went around and he was doing a documentary on open marriages. And so like they're they're interviewing these people and they're they're talking about how, "Hey, we're just free spirits and you know, it's all love anyway and wherever we get it." And so you had this man and this wife that were in this open relationship, but throughout this little mini documentary or something like that, it became very clear that the wife was pretty okay with being in a bunch of sexual relationships with a bunch of different people. The man wasn't really. Right. It was like it was like watching a hostage video. This guy was trying to convince himself out loud, "I'm actually okay with my girlfriend getting nailed by a bunch of other guys. I'm actually cool with it. I think this is a great thing. It's fine, you know, I I'm open to it. Hey, we don't have any We're not religious bigots. We're we're not going to allow ourselves to be controlled [laughter] by some sort of a system or or you know, political party or something like that." But you could just tell that it really bothered this guy. And it's because like he was suppressing the truth. He was doing everything he could to actually suppress the truth when he knew better. And she knew better as well, but they were so far down on the the you know, the road of depravity that it was harder for them to see where they're supposed to be. >> He's defined morality in a way that he's defined it. Now he has to tell himself he's wrong to get out of it. So That's tough. And that's where it comes back to where we're at in Romans. It's That guy's a slave to sin, but how are we going to become slaves to righteousness? Well, yeah, we keep the narrative going. So Caleb actually, if you would go ahead, let's do let's do 19 through 22 cuz 19 is is pretty good stand-alone, but just for context, I think it's good to kind of keep things going. 19 through 22. Yep. I'm speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh, for just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. Therefore, or you said 20, didn't you? Uh go ahead through through 22. 22, sorry. Therefore, what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death, but now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit resulting in sanctification and the outcome, eternal life. So ultimately, you know, as Ryan Well, let's go back to that point Ryan that you brought up either this week or last week or both, where most people don't actually shoot for righteousness. Like that's not actually the target that we shoot for. Yeah, I think it was last week cuz we talk about, you know, how pastors it seems like some pastors are really big and you get this from a lot more like fundamental fundamentalist, you know, movements or something like that. But they it's it's about behavioral modification, which part of the sanctification process is behavioral modification, but it's presented as if the behavioral modification is the goal. That is the righteousness. So maybe it's we don't listen to secular music or we don't wear, you know, clothes where you can see our ankles or, you know, we only do these things on these days of the week and we do these on the others. And so it becomes about the rule, typically the made up rule that was being followed, which, you know, goes back to the, you know, Pharisees and Sadducees. They made up additional stuff that wasn't from God so that they could be even more pious and even more seemingly righteous, but we don't actually look to righteousness as the standard. It's just like, "Hey, I have a goal to not look at porn so much or to not gamble or to not cuss around my non- non-believing friends or something like that." It's just behavior modification. I think so much of it, too, is like, yes, it's behavior modification, but it's also it's up to you, right? That's why you go to, you know, probably, I don't know, 50% of the churches out there and you you could confuse it with a TED Talk, you know, and like or a self-help book, right? Is that it has nothing to do with you submitting to the Lord or, you know, dying to yourself, humbling yourself, all those things. I mean, I think that the whole thing here that goes is that's so much in contrast with what the world would say is that there's there's they would say, what would they say about Christianity? Is that there's a ton of rules you have to live under, right? Well, Paul's saying the opposite. He's saying, "No, the law is the law is does nothing for you. Now, this is you're under grace, right? There's freedom in this." And that's what I think the the world would totally disagree with. It's like they look at what the way that, you know, living a non-spiritual life, a life where you're all about yourself, that's freedom, right? You know, where this is this is the exact opposite. Well, the only way that yeah, you actually get freedom is when you get limitation. And so I've I've said this before, but um when you look at an artist, cuz a lot of people that are more high in openness in terms of the big five personality traits, they these are people that will say like, "I I don't want to be restricted. I don't want anyone to put guardrails on me or any of those types of things." And so I bring these two things up cuz I think it's important. Anytime an artist picks a medium, there's limitation. So if you're a painter and you pick a canvas that is 12 by 12, you have limited yourself. There's only so much that you can do with that 12 by 12 canvas. Even if you pick the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, you are limited. Way bigger, way more options, but it's very limited. And there was some study done I should submit it to memory, but they got a bunch of kids in a van and they took them out and they wanted to just study what these these kids would do. So imagine a you know, group of fourth graders or something like that. And they go to this park and this park had no boundaries, right? It was just this wide open thing. They open up the van and then they saw what the kids would do. And you would think, "Oh my gosh, fourth graders, feral. They're just going to start running in all kinds of directions. We're pulling kids out of trees, pulling kids out of the swamp, whatever." These kids stayed near the van, right? They they did not want to stray too far away from the van. They wanted to keep the van in view. Then they took them to a similar place, but it was a large park that had an exterior fence, okay? And these kids went to all the edges of this huge park because there was safety in the boundary. Because they could feel the boundary. And so I think you're right, Caleb, where there's a lot of people that again are more free-spirited, they're higher in trade openness, all those different things and they think, "What I need is less limitations. What I need is a more ability to express myself sexually, artistically, you know, in relationally, all those different things." And then they start doing that and then they become Solomon in Ecclesiastes, right? And [clears throat] they they went down those paths, they they tried to seek out all those other different ways of living and it was like, "Man, it was just it was vapor, right? It was nothing at the end of the day." >> [clears throat] >> It's interesting. The the the the kids with the van and the the boundary, it's interesting. It's one of the things that I always I'll tell my daughter, like, "Nobody nobody wakes up and just decides that today, you know what? I've decided armed robbery. [clears throat] We're we're going all in." Like, you know, um it's a there's a there's slow and steady compromises um that I think that that lead you to actually decide that that is now acceptable. And so you look at again the kid in the van analogy it's like when you're operating within the boundaries and there's a lot of freedom. It's like I don't I I know I know that there is safety within this. Right. But when you're when there's no boundary you're just slowly stepping out each time and you're hoping you're hoping that you don't make a mistake that's so big Mhm. that it causes a problem. Problem is is most people are going to miss small over and over and over again and then eventually end up and it's like oh my god I mean if you talk to people who actually are like ex-cons a lot of them are just like can't believe I mean the ones that are repentant are more like I can't believe I let it get this far. Mhm. Yeah. Mhm. That makes sense. Well and again go go to verse 22. The very first two words but now Yeah. >> Yep. So it's set up set up set up set up set up shift but now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves you lost bondservants of God the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end eternal life. And so the reality is is that we are new. Like we are a new creation like we have been you know we we kind of hit on baptism a little bit. What was it what we were supposed to a few weeks ago or whatever or Jake wanted to cuz he had a bunch of notes on that. But it's like okay you know do you know that >> Yeah so chapter 6 verse 3 do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death. And in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father we too might walk in newness of life. When I was baptized at First Baptist West in Lawton Oklahoma when I was 15 I was buried with Christ in baptism and raised to walk in newness of life, right? And that's just burned in into my brain and it goes right back to that text. That's the but now part. And so it goes back to the if you are in in Adam, none of this really applies to you because there is no but now. It's but still, right? But if you are in Christ, if you are a new creation in Christ, that does not mean that your sin nature goes away, it means that your relationship to sin has changed. Sin no longer has dominion over you and no longer has power or punishment over you. And that's the thing is it's that what then is that even though that sin is gone and Christ has taken that sin, doesn't mean we continue living the way that we lived. >> Right. >> You know, we have to live in newness of him by no means and you know, that's where we we got to be able to put on righteousness. We got to be able to walk upright and and do the best that we can, you know, and the best that we can is to put our trust in God, you know, because we're going to have we're going to we're going to I fail every day. Um shoot, I shoot, I should probably repent most days and I should be, you know, proud of myself, but um when you repent, it changes something in you. You know, it's that it's that sanctification. That's how you know that sanctification is working is that God is moving on your heart on what he calls righteous and I I feel like um Sproul will talk about this and talk about how Satan likes to twist things. And you can we see how we've like twisted the law? Because I can show you that how I grew up, the law has always been twisted to me. And the fact that the law has been twisted is because, you know, you'll you're never going to be able to live up to the law, so the law is bad. And it's like necessarily that's not true. The law is good because it's a mirror that I can see my sin in and why I need Christ, but and it also shows God's righteousness. So it's not bad, it shows us righteous living, but we grow up with this twisted thinking just because we can't meet it, it's bad. So, you mentioned the whole righteous like we don't really preach or you don't hear a lot of preaching towards righteous righteousness. Mhm. Um I'm curious because, you know, my background is I would actually say that we were told here's the things you do that are righteous and then they made sure you did them in church. Mhm. Okay? Got it. Not saying that that's right. Not saying that that's what happened. [laughter] Here's my question. Do you feel like within the evangelical movement Mhm. that there is an aversion to righteousness because of the teaching against works? Or is there and then also just the hesitance to be identified with what the Pharisees would say about themselves? So, I've got I've got two things that kind of bring that up to me. I think it has to do with the sin within us and our our old self. And I have a 3-year-old. Yeah. You know, and uh Hammer and Hank. Hammer and Hank, [laughter] man. And he said he You guys you guys know me as a person and you know me theologically and everything. Henry said Where do you stand again? Uh yeah, where do >> [laughter] >> You can just open up your shirt and I think you'll know where you stand. Oh, here we go. You guys ready? Uh there For those of you uh he is >> [laughter] >> [ __ ] sure right there. >> uh 2 weeks ago I was like, "I'm going to leave this shirt on." >> Yeah. Just to keep We're going to have to sell this shirt. Keep it buttoned. That's good. [laughter] No. Um but no, like there's nothing in my family like there's nothing in my theology that's works based or anything like that. And and Henry uh Henry goes Henry goes, "I'm going to go to heaven." Mhm. We were I was doing a Bible study with the kids in in the morning and he was praying. He's like, "Dad, I'm going to heaven." I was like, [laughter] "Are you?" I was like I was like I was like I was like, "Glad you're [ __ ] sure on that." You know, uh but uh I go, "Why Why are you going to heaven, Henry? He's like, "Because I do good things. I listen." >> [laughter] >> And I was like, here's the thing, that kid has never been taught that. But that just shows you our inherent Right. sin that we're born with. That we think that it's merit and works and not the grace of Christ. Just because it's built into our our being. And so, I look at him and I'm like, "Nobody, That's that's not how we get to heaven." And I have the gospel conversation with a three-year-old, you know, trying to get him to understand, you know, you're saved by grace, not by works. But then it brings up a good point that you talk about. Why why are we so away from from uh from righteousness? Well, I I know about the legalism battle. I mean, I grew up Pentecostal charismatic. It was all about it was all about doing following these certain rules to get to a portion of holiness that nobody else could get to. It's almost like Buddhist nirvana type stuff. And it's just like, that's that's not where it's at, either. But then like So, actually Sproul brings this up. He said, "Christians today um want to be spiritual, pious, or moral. Righteousness is closely uh linked to self-righteousness." So, I grew up charismatic. You wanted to be hit a spiritual portion of your life to be considered holy or be considered a Christian. Or you're >> What does What does pious mean? >> Pious is like religious. So, You're just like that holier-than-thou. >> Right. Yeah, the holier-than-thou. And then you have the moral. And which the moral is like the country music theologians or the so- or social justice warriors. Right. >> You have those on each side. You know, and so, when you look at that, all these people like are using these things that they're trying to reach rather than actually talk about righteousness. Because when we talk about righteousness, what does that show us? That shows us our sin. And then when we when we're when we're shown our sin, what do we want to do? If I'm shown my sin and I'm not really a believer, or let's say I'm a young Christian, you show me my sin, what am I going to do? >> Justify it. You compare yourself to everyone else. We justify. >> I'm a Catholic. I say fix it. Yeah. >> [laughter] >> So, you were a Catholic. That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you're like, I got to do a couple of these Hail Marys and everything's good. You know, but like, no, if somebody if somebody came over to me and we're like, yeah, you're you're I'm going to make an excuse for it. I wouldn't be like, no, man, that wasn't sin. That was just a mistake, you know? And so that's where it's like, if we don't look at righteousness and we're not upfront with ourselves and looking at the law something that of what it is is to show what righteousness is and what God finds righteous, then I mean, I just don't know where to go with it, you know? It's just like, I don't know where to like where to tell somebody like, hey man, it's this is this is what this is what Christ is calling us to do. It's not legalism. >> Yeah. You know, it's not it's not saying like you have to wear these you can't wear these shorts or anything like that. It's just saying sexual immorality, this is what's moral. This is what this is how God created this. This is how you should act. This is what you should do. This is how you should treat people. When even getting back to what you asked Jake, which is like, okay, it's almost like there's this aversion to to righteousness cuz it's like, oh, we don't want to be people about work. So, it's almost like Okay. So, you have the Catholic Church and then you have the reformers and so the reformers yanked the wheel to the right. You know what I mean? Now, when you yank the wheel on any ideology, sometimes you yank and it go way too far, right? James. >> Right. Yes. Cage [laughter] stage. Right. Luther. Right. Luther. Get rid of James. Don't belong in the Bible. So, imagine agreeing with Arminius and then all of a sudden you hear the arguments for TULIP and then you yank the wheel to the right. Now here you are, you're cage stage Calvinist, right? And as Ryan, as you've talked about before on this show, like, you know, you look back on your cage stage in Calvinism and you're like, "Oh god, you did you" And I tell people all the time, you should always look back on who you were 5 years ago and be at least a little bit embarrassed. I I can't believe I wore that. I can't believe I believed that. I can't believe I argued that way. I can't believe that was my understanding about this topic. So, that's just part of your sanctification and maturity as a human being, as an adult. But, I think for a lot of people, they don't want to be seen as uh cuz they know it's like, okay, if I just check all the religious boxes, then I'm just some religious fuddy-duddy, right? I'm I'm the the MarDale Christian. I'm, you know, uh Ned Flanders type Christian. And they're like, so I don't want to be that guy. So, I still want to be cool and I want to be culturally relevant. And, you know, I almost want to be seen. So, here's part of the problem with, you know, Caleb, you brought up, you know, pastors that do these megachurch things, the Ted Talky type things. They want to be patted on the head by culture. Mhm. And so, they'll be like, "Oh, I'm not like those Christians, those pious Christians, those Pharisees, those people that are like super legalistic." People will use legalistic as a derisive term in a debate with somebody like that. But, [snorts] again, Ryan, you're you're spot on and it goes right back to the text. No one is talking about a standard of righteousness. It's appealing to the mean or appealing to some higher form of something that is preferable to you. Cuz even when you talk about these fundamentalist guys, it's always the stuff that they think are varsity sins or the things that they focus in on, right? So, you have somebody who's never had same-sex attraction and here they are like some fundamentalist Baptist preacher. And so, they just rail on homosexuality all the time. And they're fat. I'm not talking to you. >> like ridiculously fat. They're they're just slobbishly >> [laughter] >> horrible. Are you a fundamentalist Baptist pastor? Right? If anybody is not a fundamentalist, it's probably you. >> your wife again? Uh >> [laughter] >> no, but like that's >> Your pants are way too short, Caleb. >> they don't want to talk They don't want to talk about like taking care of their meat chassis that God gave them. They don't want to talk about, you know, slothfulness or, you know, uh partaking in different things. If someone doesn't have a problem with drinking or if they decided as an early early bird as a Christian that I'm not going to drink anymore, they elevate that to the to the varsity sin category, but no one's talking about God's standard of righteousness. They're picking and choosing the things that are typically easier for them to understand and control. >> And that's the thing about our conversation that we had a couple weeks ago. It's like you and I may not agree on certain things, but here's what we do. >> Y'all don't agree? But here's what we do agree on. Christ was born of a virgin. Yep. He died on the cross for our sins >> Mhm. as a propitiation. Do you believe that? Okay. I just want to Some people Some people get upset with propitiation. I just want to object. No, no, no. And he resurrected Yeah. 3 days later. Yeah. That's the foundation that we all have to go on. I like I like the What's my um I've been approaching a lot of scripture lately with the quote with a quote from the movie Rudy. Uh when Rudy's in the >> most beautiful thing I've ever seen in my life. >> [laughter] >> Rudy uh Rudy Rudy's in the Rudy's in church and he's praying and the priest comes up and he says um you know, he says, "Have I prayed enough?" And he goes, "Oh, I'm quite certain that's not the problem." And he goes, "Well, have I done everything that I can?" And the priest looks at him and goes, "Son, in my 40 years of priesthood, I have learned only two incontrovertible truths. There is a God and I'm not him." Yeah. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah. It's the truth. I think I feel like righteousness, when you say it as like it's a pursuit, that it almost sounds arrogant, right? Yeah. But really at the end of the day, we're talking about the sanctification process. It's the whole thing, right? So, I mean, anybody that, you know, if you if that's not something that you think is necessary, um then your your theology's off base, right? But I think the reason, like you asked the question of why the evangelical movement has maybe backed away from that a little bit. I >> [snorts] >> I honestly feel like because it it takes effort, you know, like it takes a lot of discipline. It takes a lot of work. Um and that's not even to say it's Okay, not to split hairs, right? It's work, but it's also letting the spirit fill us and work through us. All those things. >> split hairs because they're both bald or I didn't know I just didn't know where you were going. But anyway, start go ahead. Go ahead. Sorry. Squirrel, squirrel. Okay, go ahead. Keep going. You're right. I wouldn't have it any other way. You know, but like that's really it is. It's the it's the standard that you're calling someone to. This That's takes work. Yeah. >> So, I think it's it's just like the the What was it that Mark said? The mild mannered thing. Right. I don't want to really ruffle any feathers. I want to make sure everybody feels good when they leave. All that kind of thing. I I think that's why they backed off. >> think they backed off cuz they're lazy. It's countercultural. It's not going to bring people into the door. And so, it's like, "Hey, how can I just not talk about it, but still like if you come and ask me and come read my website, I'll tell you the truth. But let's just never preach the truth on the pulpit." >> what Luke Miles, uh whenever he came on the show again, so he runs TPUSA Faith. He he worked under Charlie Kirk and all that. And in his book his latest book uh that was foreworded by Charlie Kirk, I think uh it's called Pagan Threat. Uh one of the parts of the book it was talking about how these modern-day pastors it's it's really just it's a lot of laziness. Yeah. And so, because of course me, a little bit more militant, I'm like, "No, it's cowardice. And they don't want to do it. They know what's right. They don't want to do it." It's like, "Man, you just you just don't really understand how lazy some of these people are about the things." Because they know they probably should talk about, you know, how critical race theory isn't really biblical at all or how, you know, Catholicism or the problems with that or Mormonism or the problems with Marxism or something like that. Ah, but I'd I'd have to do some research and I'd have to maybe like go get some extra training or something like that. And so, it just really comes down to this overall, you know, laziness. Even though there is still cowardice involved, cuz there are people that are like they don't want to do the hard thing because they just want to keep pounding whatever drum they want to do. Their next series on how to be a better person in the workplace or how to, you know, spend your your money in a godly way or whatever that kind of thing is. And so that's just what they lean on. And just comfort. You know, it's like Yeah, what's comfortable? My church is growing, you know, 10% a year. Like I just keep doing what I'm doing and I know I'm going to do it for this long and I'm making plenty of money and yeah, I think he's just very comfortable. Yeah, why push? Like why why try to upset the apple cart? >> Right. And so I was talking it's actually funny. I was talking to somebody the other day and this person's, you know, very skeptical of pastors when they when they start selling a lot of books, when their church is starting to grow, when they, you know, start to have a larger social media following. It's like, what is this person saying? And he said he was initially very skeptical of Joby and his ministry. And I asked him why and he said, well, because I started seeing his clips pop up more on my social media algorithm and because I saw his, you know, his church kept, you know, expanding. And so he just goes, and this kind of gives you some insight into the seeker sensitive movement that we've railed on a lot at this table. But he just goes, because of those things, I just assumed that he was preaching a either a watered-down version of the gospel or no gospel at all. >> Right. And then and then I just I skipped to the end in the conversation. I go, and so when you started listening to him, what did you think? He goes, yeah, my initial idea of what I thought was happening because the model, the seeker sensitive model, yeah, big beautiful buildings, check. People on stage that can sing, check. You know, entertaining sermons that, you know, make you giggle every now and then, check. But when you hammer sin, depravity, and the gospel that hard, that is not in any of the manuals for how to grow a big church quickly at all. >> And so it comes down to is God moving, right? Is is the Holy Ghost, right? Here I Here I'm getting all Pentecostal. What is this? The Holy Ghost, like the the Holy Ghost is moving, the Holy Spirit is moving in people's hearts. It's attracting them to certain places and you have a church and a ministry that's not just taking evangelism seriously, but they're also taking discipleship and sanctification seriously. And so it flips the model on its head, but it gives you an indication as to who who the Lord is is blessing and uh who uh the Holy Spirit is basically doting on and helping along. Mhm. That's for sure. I'm curious, you know, we we we've talked a little bit about righteousness and I'm I guess I'm curious like what would you I mean what would you point to as like that is righteousness? Cuz if I'm supposed to live this out and pursue righteousness then then exactly what am I pursuing? Is it something I'm doing? Is it something I'm listening to? I'm never going to be offended. Um but I'm kind of, you know, again because there are other faiths that outline this clearly. This is what righteousness looks like. So, I'm curious from an evangelical standpoint what what are we to be looking out for and what are the things that we should be doing in order to pursue that righteousness or holiness? To righteousness. To righteousness. To [laughter] godly righteousness. I I feel like Paul lines that out in chapter one. Okay. I mean vaguely. I mean, we'd have to go back and look at moral law. We'd have to go back. When Christ came back Christ took ceremonial law out of it. We don't live under Judean law. But the moral law is still written on our hearts. And so I believe that righteousness comes down to what what God calls moral. And And In the Bible it shows us what he considers moral. Well, I I I would say yes to that. What I would add to that is because we all want to listen, don't we, Jake? Right? Here's a things you can't Think about >> I like checklists. Right. We we like her. [laughter] Dude, I'm a checklist person. >> Somebody's an accountant. Bro, I will put things on my to-do list that I've already done just so I can have the satisfaction I'm into that. Oh, I just feel so good. But, you know, I heard you know, someone asked me the other day, they're like, "Hey, I have a buddy that says this word." And he's like, "I think it's a cuss word. He doesn't think so. Who's right?" >> [laughter] >> And I'm just like, you know, I was just like, "Well, neither one of those words are in the English translation of the Bible. And then you can go to passages about no unwholesome talk and you know, not being coarse in your language and all all those different things and I think it's fine to to go there. But I was talking about this I it was either with Chandler or with Joby, but I was just basically like, "Hey, and you know, you could tell I was like trying to figure it out as I was saying it. I was like, "Hey, are there things that are sinful for some people and not for others?" And they were just kind of like, "Well, what do you mean?" I'm like, "Okay. Well, so for me, I've never had a drinking problem, right? So let's use this as an example. I've never had a drinking problem. I've never been inebriated to the point where I couldn't drive or function or make good decisions, right? So it's never had that grip on me. So can I enjoy some Macallan 18 to the glory of God because God gave us alcohol as a social lubricant and his first, you know, miracle was turning water into wine so that and yes, it was alcoholic wine so people could keep the party going. That's great. And so can I partake in this and it not be sinful? And it's like, well, the answer is yes. Mhm. But what about for my buddy who was controlled and consumed by alcohol, that made incredibly dangerous, like spiritually, mentally, and physically speaking, incredibly dangerous decisions that almost cost him his life, his marriage, his business, his relationship with his children? Would it be sinful for him to have a drink? The answer to that's probably yes because it's he had created an idol out of something >> Yeah. that I have not idolized. And so this that's where you have a sliding scale of sin whenever you go to like, "Okay, what is righteous behavior for one would be unrighteous for another because of how Satan and how sin nature has gripped them versus the original person." Are you using nuance? No, I don't know what that [laughter] is. There's no such thing as gray area. We only have black and white. Shut up your pie hole. Do I need to turn your mic off again? Do I need to turn your mic off again? Freaking jackwagon. No, I agree with you. I agree with you 100% on that. I mean, it's it's the Holy Spirit's going to speak to us, you know? Like Like I said, I don't know if it was this episode or last episode. Um but I talked about how I'm I can use potty jokes. I'm really quick-witted with derogatory potty jokes. And after listening >> Like you have an example or do you want to like share? >> [laughter] >> Last time I said something on here, I got in trouble. So You Were you Were you at poker night? Yeah, I was at the other table. Oh, you were Did you hear anything going on over there? Uh I didn't hear anything at your table. I heard giggles, but I thought it was because people were getting ready >> something to me about something and >> Don't JUST DON'T. >> [laughter] >> I'M NOT I'M NOT GOING TO I'M JUST SAYING I THINK WE GOT YOUR POINT. GO GO BACK TO YOUR SOMEBODY SAID SOMETHING to me. But >> [laughter] >> I listened to Mark's message and I felt conviction by it. You know, I felt convicted. And I'm like, "Oh, man. Like the fact he even brought up He's like, if you're quick to do it." Yeah. And I'm like, "Man, I'm so quick to do it." Like it's just second nature to me. Like if Kai were to say something and I would have a quick whip back. And I was like, "Man, that's something I need to work on." That may not be Somebody can be able to tell an inappropriate joke and it just be, you know, kind of funny or kind of random cuz they don't do it all the time. But for me, I'm so quick with it. Like I felt conviction on that. >> Well, but here's the other thing. Going back to what Jake was saying. So, you and I are both very quick-witted and so someone will say something and we It's almost like we have this Oh, there's a race to the joke. Yeah. And so I have to say it as fast as possible. But then, you know, like Caleb, you're more of a slow processor. You're more of slow cooker. We're We're like an Instant Pot that's been set on fire. And so uh the the difference being So, let's say that I say something you come back immediately verbally with a joke. But he also thought it. Right? Mhm. Sin. Bam. Both of you are busted. You know what I mean? So, you said it out loud. It was louder, more boi- boisterous, more easy to see. Same [clears throat] sin over here. Right? And go back to the standard for for Jesus and sexual immorality. It's like okay. >> in the heart. Right? Have you Have you undressed the waitress with your eyes and then, you know, pleasured yourself later to to that view or something like that? It was as if you had already done that. Like, have you hated your brother? You may as well pulled out a hammer and beat him to death with it, right? Like, that's that's the standard for sin. Right. And the the thing with with sin is there is a consequence for it. And so, I actually want to wrap up here uh with verse 23. So, Jake, if you will, in your best big boy voice, go and read uh Romans 6:23. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Okay, so there is a great quote that I that I've heard several people use before. It's from uh I believe it's from Dallas Willard. The gospel isn't anti-effort. It's anti-earning. The gospel isn't anti-effort. It's anti-earning. >> Mhm. So, when you use the wages of sin is death, all right, Romans 6:23, very very popular verse, right? Not for fun reasons, but, you know, it's a very popular verse a lot of people have heard. Wages assumes works. Right? Because when you do works, you receive wages. You merit wages. I did this for you, you give me money. I traded my time and talent, you give me money right? But when you see, "But the free gift of God is eternal life," free gift assumes no works. No merits. Mhm. Now we're back to imputation. We're we're back to the imputation of justification for our sins. And imputation is a one-way street. Mhm. >> Okay? And so, when you get into unconditional election or you you get into irresistible grace, right? That's where you have to reckon with verses like verse 23 because there is a dichotomy in the verse because we want to think in terms of wages, but it's not in terms of wages. It's in terms of gifting. And we don't get to choose the gift, we only get to accept it. What are the conditions for that acceptance? Mhm. That's where the debate unfolds, but we only have a few minutes. So, if y'all want to argue >> staying out of this. I'm not touching this. I'm not touching this. I'm not touching this. I'm not touching this. the afterlife on this episode by arguing, let's go. We can do that. >> I mean I was going to go actually kind of back to Jesus' parable of the you know, paying the wages and you know, the the workers who showed up later and still got the same wage. Yeah, showed up at the 11th hour. >> here's your here's your wages, okay? As you know, all of us read that parable and go like, oh, that's not fair. That's you know, like why are they all getting the same amount same amount? But it's because they didn't it's not a matter of earning it. It's a matter of I actually have received a gift that essentially you know, when we talk about the wages the wages of sin being death, I look at that and go, okay, well, if they got their just due, their wages would have been appropriate to but appropriate to the amount of time that they worked. Here, it's like no, you get this free gift and Kyle, you've talked about this a few times like our quick reaction to people who have been saved and come out as being saved and then they get that free gift. >> The skepticism that is Yeah. You know, and and and I guess I would say in this again kind of going back to that whole righteousness thing. In our own self-righteousness, we look at that person and like no way. How how they were so bad. Not them. And so I kind of I'm I'm going back to more towards just the wage you know, wages earned versus wages gotten. I guess I could you could say. So, I mean you mentioned just what does righteousness look like, you know? And I think [clears throat] you know, to me it's this it's just a constant. That's why like we know sin comes not or the temptation of sin comes knocking on our door every day, right? So, I think the the measurable unrighteousness is just a daily dying to yourself, asking to be spirit-filled, and to to live a life that, you know, is less of me and more of him. >> I I I mean, I don't I don't think it's more complicated than that. I I I always It's when you talk righteousness, prayer word worship. Mhm. I It It those three things in and of themselves are not going to make you righteous. But doing those things will lead to righteousness. So, I I bet it's going to be no surprise that I'm going to focus on sin here. Really? Your favorite thing. Oh, yes. Hooray. It's just because I'm so good >> You need to unbutton your shirt in order to have this discussion. >> It's not going to go into that. I just realized people that are watching this are going to think that you don't have an undershirt and I just [laughter] said that. Yeah. You don't want He is wearing the He is wearing the [ __ ] shirt t-shirt that was referred to several weeks ago. So, there it is. There is a fighting [ __ ] holding a Bible, five tulips, and a Christmas tree cake tattoo on its arm. Shout out. >> I I wear this as much as I can. Still waiting for Pastor Jay to wear this with me. Hey, you know what? [laughter] No one knew until just now that he even has that shirt. So, the attention It was basically Jay, me, you, and Adam that knew he even had that shirt. And so, [laughter] bam. All right, yeah. There's But no, sin here. What does sin bring? It says wages of sin is death. What does it What does it bring to you when you sin? Like before you were a sinner or before you were sinner before you were a Christian. Sin brings pleasure. Yep. Temporary >> pleasure. Temporary pleasure. But one thing it will never bring is happiness. Joy. And joy. And so, the wages of sin is death. I may have pleasure in the moment, but in the end I'm going to die. Yeah. And I'm going to have no joy. I'm going to have no happiness. But through righteousness and through what Christ has done on the cross for me, in the end, when I suppress that sin as I go through my fleshly moments, in the end I'm going to see happiness. I'm going to see joy. I'm going to see it not only in the near life, but I'm going to see that now as I as I run my life. With my wife and kids. Well, I think that's that's a great place to leave it and really like going back to the the wages comment, right? Wages assumes works. And as Christians, we want works. We want the list of works that work to get us righteousness. But in this particular equation, where works? For the wages of sin. For the works of sin. The works that we have done are to sin, which leads us to where? To death. And that that that is the only option. And so it's hard, especially if you're highly conscientious, if you're a note taker, rule follower, box checker, to to try to find yourself in that, but it's no more clear than we see there in Romans 6:23. But guys, come back here next week. We're going to get into Romans 7. And I'll just go and tell you these two jackwagons have been chomping at the bit to get into chapter 7. And so I don't know what Caleb, I don't even think I might have to pull any punches on I think they're just ready for it at this point. >> I'm looking forward to it not because we're going to talk about anything. Oh boy, look at the note section over there. Guys, you're going to have to come back next week to hear what's going to be going down. There's no Calvinism in this. >> [laughter] >> There's not There's not the word Calvinism There's not the word Trinity in there. But anyway, we're going to do a quick resilience boost before I let you guys go. Undaunted Life for Mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Don't forget about the Log on Undaunted Life Study Bundle. Guys, you have wasted more money on more stupid things. Why don't you spend $350 as an investment on your ability to be the head of your household, to catechize your children, to love your wife as Christ loved the church. Get that study bundle. Also, via Crossway, we have a forging table starter set, five amazing books at a 50% discount. Go to the show notes to check that out. And also, undaunted.life/donate. undaunted.life/donate. We are donation-based ministry. So, if you want to see us continuing this process of equipping men around the globe to push back darkness, hop on board and be a donor. Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five-star review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@undaunted.life. That's info@undaunted.life. [clears throat] Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook, and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www.undaunted.life. And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is their song Perpetua, which is off their self-titled debut album on Facedown Records. The links are in the description. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience, keep seeking the lion of Judah. >> [music]