Hey guys, real quick. So, I've talked to men literally all across the globe about where they're missing the mark and how they want to improve. They normally talk about how they wish they were in better shape. They wish they had a better relationship with their loved ones. They wish they had more success and influence at work and some other stuff like that. But here are some of the most common and biggest things that I hear. I wish I knew more about the Bible. I wish I could lead my family spiritually. I wish I could recall more scripture. I wish Bible study wasn't such a struggle. Well guys, I've got news for you. You don't have to keep wishing. It's time for you to start doing. It's time for you to stop wasting your time and money on stuff that has no eternal value whatsoever. I keep hearing you talk about how you want to be more biblically literate and spiritually resilient. And now is your chance to prove that you mean it. That's why I want you to take advantage of our partnership with the most powerful Bible software on planet Earth, Logos. So, Logos approached me about putting something together for the Undaunted Lifers out there, and we collaborated to create something I'm super pumped about, the Undaunted Life Study Bundle. So, here's the skinny on the bundle. There are over 200 individual resources and they include titles from authors like Vodie Bacham, Charles Spurgeon, RC Sproul, John MacArthur, Matt Chandler, Dietrich Bonhaofer, William Lane, Craig, Paul Washer, John Sto, Doug Wilson, Paul David Trip, Jipacker, and a whole bunch more. And there are so many helpful resources in there. There's Bibles, commentaries, Old and New Testament study guides, devotionals, systematic theologies courses dictionaries histories encyclopedias non-fiction books, and more and more and more. And here's the most insane part about this deal. If you were to buy each individual resource by yourself inside of Logos, it would cost you over $3,000. $3,000. But if you get the Undaunted Life Study bundle, you'll get all 200 plus resources for just $349.99. Guys, that's $3,000 worth of stuff for 350 bucks, guys. That's almost 90% off. And you know that you waste more than that on the hobbies that you have right now all the time. And these won't help you with your disciplehip and sanctification journeys, right? It's time to get real and take control of your Bible study and spiritual development. Click the link in the show notes for this episode. If you want the link, it's logos.com/undaunted life. That's www.llog.com/undauntedlife or the link in the show notes. It's super easy to sign up. Again, go to the show notes and click the link or go to logos.comlife. Sign up for Logos and get the Undaunted Life study bundle right now. >> [music] [music] >> This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. >> Welcome back to the forging table. The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. I almost said or physical resilience. I guess you can just pick and choose on this podcast. [laughter] At the forging table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience by digging into God's word. We're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with us. That's Winkler. That's Browning. But Howard, I'm just going to tell you like I'm basically the Santa Claus at the forging table because you made a small [laughter] little statement as I was sitting down getting ready for this recording and you're like I feel like we should hit the smelling salt or whatever. >> I didn't say we should hit the smell. I said I almost need the smelling. >> You almost need it because guys, we're doing this kind of late because uh everybody But hey, you know what? Ask and you shall receive. So uh [laughter] the world's strongest smelling salts. But here's the thing, guys. I've already opened the bag. These have already been used, so they're they're not going to be as potent as some of the other ones, but it's probably going to be good enough. >> Has everyone at the table done this before? I've done it once. >> I've never done the smelling salt. >> The best part of that is I got to do it with Ryan Horn, >> Mr. P. We did. We did do the podcast together cuz that's when he puked. >> Oh, there you go. So, so Howard, um Howard, I'm I'm very upset cuz I was over here going, "Okay, well, we'll get to do a 9:00 one." And I was going, you know, we actually have an opportunity. Maybe it's 9:00. We could have had a nice scotch or bourbon uh and close this night out really well, but you know, Howard wants smelling salts. >> He threw out the [laughter] suggestion before you did, cuz if you had made that suggestion, Santa Claus over here would have just made that happen. And so, these are the world's strongest smelling salts. What's the name of that brownie? >> That's not good enough, Howard. What's the name of it? [laughter] >> Not good either. Give it to us, Winkler. That is it. That is the name of the smelling salts. And so, here's the thing on the smelling salts. Uh, give it a little shake. Open it up, but don't stick it straight up under your nose. Kind of like gently bring it cuz I can smell it through the through the cap right now. Just kind of gently bring it through. But you you got to get if you don't feel it in your brain stem, you didn't, you know, get a hard enough feel in your brain. Who wants to go first? I'll go last. You know, we'll make All right. All right. Here we go. [laughter] It's a competition. Y'all can arm wrestle for it. All right. Here we go. Give it a go. Give it a go. >> You got this. >> Last one for this group. Come on, baby. >> Boy, I smell it. All right. >> Yeah. Oh, no. Brain stem. Think brain stem. Get it. Don't smell that. >> Just put it up there close. Don't breathe. [laughter] Is that it? >> Wait a minute. Is that the That should be better. I got another one. [laughter] I >> I think Winkler has no nose hairs. >> It's not It's definitely not as strong as it used to be, but that's >> I mean, I smelled it. >> Oh, [laughter] let me compare. >> You know what? I think I I think >> that one's the newer one. >> It's a bad beat, Kyle. I think we need whiskey. >> It's not a bad It's not a bad [laughter] beat. You know what? That just means you got to sniff harder. >> Yeah. Yeah, that's definitely not. When when he started sniffing that hard, I was like, man, that's not >> I was like, you are going to knock yourself out. [laughter] >> Oh, all right. There you go. >> I don't [laughter] fall flat. Hey, let's just spread it on the table. See if that works better. >> Oh, yes. >> Okay. I got a good one. I got a good >> Well, you know, that just means I need to order more. Oh, there it is. You're going to be smelling that tomorrow. All right. Here we go. Looks like he's at the table. [snorts] >> Yeah. See, like [laughter] none of that would have happened. >> I went farther than all of you. That's basically what happened. You dunes. Come on, you cowards. [laughter] All right, I'm going to get on and order some more. Now, how am I going to transition? [laughter] >> That's what she said. >> Oh. >> Oh, get it. Get it. >> Or he said, >> speaking of transgender jokes, I got one. Uh, [laughter] why did the transgender eat salad, >> dude? cuz he was a her before. [laughter] >> Oh, >> that good one. >> Oh, man. Well, you know, you know the one with Michael Jackson, you know his pronouns, don't you? [laughter] >> Man, this is off the rails from the beginning. We're only 4 minutes in. But the reason we know we're 4 minutes in, Browning knows how to work. We >> figured it out. >> But we don't know when you're on the forging table again. And so this could all completely fall to bits by the next time. >> Next episodes, right? >> Are you on next one, too? I I believe so. >> All right, man. Well, you are officially on duty for the next one. But, uh, guys, we're going to go ahead and get into Romans 6. And so, where we left it off last week, so if you're not caught up, make sure you listen to these in order because we are scraping our way through Romans. But, we have all of these different through lines. All this very, very rich theology coming at us from Romans 1:1 all the way through the end of Romans 5. And then we get to kind of the wakeup statement at the beginning of Romans 6:1. What shall we say then? So that's the so what what do I do with this information like okay and is kind of the deal. Um but let's go ahead and read uh the first two verses. So Howard, how about you hit the first two verses and we'll start our discussion there. [cough and clears throat] Reading from the ESV, what shall we say then? Are we to continue in continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means. How can we who died to sin still live in it? And so, uh, the by no means, uh, there's there's a lot of different translations for it, you know, God forbid, like those types of things. And the entire focus of chapter 6, that's I mean, we're getting into sanctification now, right? Because we've been talking a lot about justification. uh you know there's glorification which is you know we're saved from the the presence of sin justification we're saved from the penalty of sin all that's set up for chapter 6 where it's like okay now we got the sanctification process this is the process from when you become a Christ follower this is the process where you're saved from the power of sin throughout the rest of your Christian walk before you were called home to glory right >> and so the thing that um we get into here is there's there's a direct repudiation of anti-nomianism here right from the beginning. So anti-nomianism. So you have anti and you have nomos. So anti means against and nomos means law. >> And so there was a very early heresy of anti-nomianism which basically means like all right no regard for the law like what you were talking about last week Jake where it's just like >> willy-nilly. I've got my get out of hellfree card like and so now I can just do whatever I want so that grace may abound. >> Whoopsy daisy. You got to read here. was like, "So, do we just start sinning more because we have grace?" Okay. And we just want we want grace to abound more, so let's just sin some more. So, grace covers us even harder. Yeah. This is just not how any of this works. And there was an interesting thing that came from the Sproul commentary. this, you know, the Romans in a year. And this really helped and I sent it to the group, but it helps, you know, explain the Catholic position, the reformation position, and the antinomianism position because it tells us, okay, what what is kind of the the equation for how we get justification. So with Catholics, it's faith plus works equals justification. That's the easiest one to see. So it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Faith, faith and all that, but you got to do stuff, >> right? you you got to be Catholic, you got you got to, you know, do these sacraments, you got to communion, you know, pray the rosary, like whatever, talk to the little guy in the box, like whatever the thing is, right? So faith plus works equals justification. But now when we get to the reformation, not reformed view, but the reformation view is faith equals justification plus works. >> So basically, we are not saved because of works, we are saved for works, right? because that's when you start getting into the evaluation of fruit and you know what exactly are you doing? It's not the works that saved us and it's not the works that continue to save us. Right? So Browning even talking last week where you were talking about how for a stretch as a child you were praying Jesus into your heart every night just to make sure you know there are certain >> there are certain you know sects of even Protestantism to where it's like if you die with any unrepented sin in your life you don't make it right. If you don't make it to the baptism of water, you don't make it. Right? So that's the reformation view. Antinomianism is faith equals justification minus works. >> Mhm. >> Faith equals justification minus works. >> But again, in the first two verses of chapter 6, we have a direct fullthroated repudiation of that. And so that that's just a good place to start here because this is a this is a so what time to get after it uh thing you know here to start Roman >> 6. The first thing I would say on that is that uh you know Paul being the the lawyer type that he is and and being a Pharisee knew what was coming right and so right off the bat he came strong with this you know and I think one translation that I that I read the the NASB says may it never be right out the gate. That is immediately his take on that. And I was listening or I was reading one of the MacArthur commentaries and he was talking about this idea of anti-nominianism and how we see that in the some churches today, right? That hey, we have grace but we don't ever change. That sanctification process never starts, right? Hey, raise your hand. Let's let's come to God, accept him, but then we don't the sanctification process never starts. And so that's that's something we see in a lot of churches today is like hey raise your hand but do we start that disciplehip process do we start that training process right you that's a big part of of your mission you know with sand to stone we have to grow young men and young women in this this walk in this journey in faith but are our churches doing that and I think it's very prevalent of like hey we want to receive the grace we want to receive the forgiveness and that that that warm fuzzy feeling Right. But do we continue in that sanctification process of our believers? >> Right? And and like with the um equipping of the saints, you know, you can go to so let's just say the church has a robust uh Sunday school class, whatever. Uh you can go to like disciplehip 101. >> Uh you can go complete that class. Maybe it takes you six months or whatever. Then you can go to 2011. You complete that class and you go to 301. Well, at some point you just kind of get to the end, right? Uh and that's it. Um and that's [clears throat] where your your believers in that church in theory might just kind of that's their ceiling, >> right? Now, they can go back and they could teach 101, 2011, and 301. >> Uh and then just keep repeating that process, I suppose, if they want to. >> [clears throat] >> My my thought is that, you know, as as our as fathers, we should be the ones raising our our kids in the faith, helping them become established and being pace setters. It also means that we should be being poured into by someone else as well. And so, like, in my life, I had a mentor that poured into me consistently for years and years and years and years and years. I mean, we're talking 15 plus years. And then I got another mentor, did it for several years or whatever. And the [clears throat] idea is that I was always staying at least a step ahead. So I always had something to pour in to somebody else. Well, now it's my kids. Um, so I feel like it's great if the church has this establishment program. Absolutely. They should utilize that. But there's [clears throat] going to be a point where you kind of hit a ceiling and then they say, "Why don't you go teach oneonone?" And you just end up back in there, right? And so then you're just hitting people at a ceiling. And maybe you're maybe maybe you're growing, maybe you're not. So, but yeah. Yeah. It's I think it's our job as as men and as fathers to be growing our kids. Um and then just continuing to set the pace and just pouring into them and whatever whatever we're learning we're we're giving to them. Yeah. Whatever we're learning the next week, we're giving to them. So forth and so on. So one of the things that um one of the things that when Luther came out with the idea of uh solid which is faith alone when he came out with that idea he was that was his he was accused of antinomianism um but going back to you know this idea that going back to the idea Howard you know on the I raise a hand I have the for fuzzy feelings and all right I leave church and now But right um I think if you are not if you don't feel compelled towards good works at that point and I'm not saying that necessarily you doing it but I'm just saying if you are not like I've said this before but I think Catholics get a lot of things right they just get it right for the wrong reasons. Okay. >> So communion I don't think there's anybody at this table that would say you shouldn't take communion. Okay. you're going to be led. I mean, you should that's something that we should desire is to have to take communion, confession of sins, not necessarily to a guy in a little box, but we should be confessing our sins to one another. Um, that is a good thing to do. That is something that will help sanctify you. Um and you know the other when you look at the other sacraments uh marriage and p you know uh perseverance of the saints uh these are all things that you're going to go yeah I I agree with all of these but they do that with again they do that on one side of the equation uh where where where somebody who is on faith alone would have it on the opposite side of the equation. The issue is though that I think there's a lot of people who go through the hand raising or the altar call and they go up front and they go, "Okay, I've done the thing and I'm in." And I think if you don't feel compelled or drawn, baptism is a great example. We we talked about baptism earlier today. I actually think do I think you have to be baptized to get into heaven? No. But I think to me it is uh like when my daughter got baptized uh at Faith Bible, I baldled like a just >> an idiot. Uh but >> you baldled like a good dad. >> I I baldled and and the way that I kind of described it is cuz my you know somebody asked me it's like why did that hit you so hard? I was like baptism makes no sense without the Holy Spirit. >> Okay, I'm just going to go get up on stage in front of a bunch of strangers. let another stranger throw me underwater. Um because faith won't let parents baptize their kids. I have my own little [laughter] >> I will be throwing my own personal baptism party. I get I get you. But the the thing is is and that's what I explained to my daughters like you want to go you want to be baptized and and we wanted them to wait till they were a little older because I was you know I don't want you to do this because well my friends are doing it. You know, this is this is not a peer pressure thing. This is this is faith. This is serious. So, I looked at it as I look at it as this is the first work, if you will, in your sanctification process. Or it should be. You should just be like, I have to get dunked. I want this so bad. >> I want to get in the water. I want everybody to know I'm I'm I'm team Jesus now. And so I do think that um like I said there's a lot of good things uh that the the Catholics are doing. They just don't necessarily it's just on the wrong side of the equation. Um and so anyways uh I I I don't want people to think that I just don't want people thinking that uh you know when you when you do get saved you know it you should feel compelled you should feel driven towards something. Well, yeah. I mean, because if you have the Holy Spirit now, obviously there's going to be conviction if you do things that are counter to what you should be doing. This actually came up in a couple different instances today because I was having lunch with a buddy whose I think a 10 or 11 yearear-old daughter just got baptized like last week and he got to you know baptizer and like it was this whole thing and you know she had indicated a you know a saving faith in Christ before that but similarly he didn't want her he didn't want her to just be doing it cuz her friends did and she didn't want to feel left out and you know this kind of this church camp phenomenon where all the kids just get in line and get dunked and then you know just so that they don't want to be the only one that didn't get dunked and they're they go home you know as a heathen. where all their friends are saved like they you know and so he said that one day his daughter just came into him and his wife's room and was just like look I I want to be baptized like there was no setup there was no uh previous discussion um and it's just like look I I think it's time for me to be baptized and you know then they felt comfortable with moving forward with that you know at our church they typically wait until a child is 8 years of age so that they can like make sure they understand what they're doing and you know some people would certainly quibble with that because like no if you accept Christ at 6 years old, you need to you need to get baptized immediately because you're living in sin uh in you know if you don't get baptized or whatever. But I was even u sitting in my barber's [clears throat] chair today and he asked me he was just like this is Christian and he's just like hey so what about the people that you know raise their hand you know at service or they they walk down to the altar call and all that and maybe even they get baptized and then there's absolutely zero life change. So inherent in the question is he's probably talking about an adult because typically if you've got a lovely sweet little eight-year-old girl. It's not like she's like got a blacktar heroin addiction and she [laughter] also is like you know acting out in all these crazy ways all a sudden she gets saved and then she's you know you know model student in the front of the class and all those different things. But typically with adults, you can see more of the depravity more easily, you know, with uh different addictions, whether it's chemical or sexual, different ways of acting out like uh you know, >> uh a bunch of sin behind them, right? You know, a bunch of destroyed lives or or property or whatever. And so basically what I told him is if you see someone who has raised their hand and said, I'm in the club, like I'm I am a saint, right? Not in the Catholic sense, but like I'm I'm you know, one of the one of the saved. I'm part of the brethren, right? They get baptized, which is their public declaration of an internal reality. The water is not salvific, but is a public declaration of a decision that's been made or something that's been imputed to you, however you want to word it. But then there's absolutely zero life change. >> I think it is your responsibility to almost treat them as if they are a brother so that you can still call them to repentance. So, it's like you're almost treating them like they are part of the club, but at the same time, you're you're leaving open the possibility that maybe not that it didn't take. Yeah. But that they really didn't mean it. There was some other motivation >> for their actions of raising their hand. And again, we talked about you get whipped up by the TED talk and the concert and the the dark lights and all the things. And then, you know, the the preacher went to sales school and he understands the power of saying, "And so I want you to raise your hand now and I want you to stand up now and I want you to come down here now." and you're and then you kind of get woken up and then you just like throw your hand up and then you're like, "All right, well now I got to walk down there and now I got to tell people, shoot, they put me on the baptism list. I guess I got to show up." >> But I think it is okay to evaluate fruit in people's life. And if you don't see fruit of gospel repentance, >> I think it is incumbent upon you to point that out. >> I got a great quote here by Donald Gay Barnhouse. He says, "Holiness starts where justification finishes. And if holiness does not start, we have the right to suspect that justification never started either, >> right? Because as we see throughout scripture, it's like I don't this idea that somebody had faith and they lost it at some point along the way. Again, I like how Joby describes it. It's like, so are you saying that Jesus can lose one of his sheep? >> That you can you can take a one of his sheep from his grasp. >> Yeah. I don't think you want to start making that argument. It's it's way more likely, if not definitively, there was never uh a a transfer of their faith from themselves into the finished work of Christ on the cross. And that you should point that out. >> Yeah. And I think that's still another one of those uh that's why it's important to have someone coming alongside someone because before they become a Christian, they don't I mean they may have knowledge of what they should and should not do. there obviously some internal things, internal truths they have to kind of struggle through uh and make decisions about. But like when they become a Christian now you've got like you've got the Bible and everything in it that then you can come alongside and be like hey I saw you do this thing or heard you say this thing or whatever that's is this would be a better way for you to act. you come alongside show them a better way and then you what your expectation is that over time you would see the fruit then come from that because I think some people come come into the faith and maybe they were you hope they were honest about it let's just say they are but they're naive they need they need people to come alongside to actually show them the truths right so I I and that's where it gets gray for me it's like well how long do you wait you know for for fruit to show up before you be like you're not a Christian you know whatever not that you would say that but just you start questioning things Um, and I don't know the answer to that, but I do think that someone needs to be shown the truth, be explained like what why that's important and then led in in a in in a better way. I mean, that's what 2 Timothy 3:16 basically talks about is when somebody gets off the path, they're guided back onto the path and and and back on the right road, so to speak. So, >> and the process doesn't stop. >> No, I mean, that's that's the thing. I mean, I know I know whenever I know for me there was like these big things, you know, sanctification's a little u it's a little back like therapy. If you ever gone to therapy before, like when my wife and I went to couples counseling, there was this whole thing like um they our our counselor said, you know, you're coming in here and when you first come in, you are lifting boulders off of your marriage. Like these the the easy things. It's like this is a big problem, but there's going to be all this stuff underneath. There's going to be, you know, some goodsized rocks and then there's going to be these pebbles and then there's going to be this dust and it's just like you just are not going to feel like you're ever going to get clean. And that to me it and I like when I heard that analogy it's like well what a great analogy for the sanctification process itself because yeah okay um if you're somebody it's like well I have I watch porn all the time and I'm addicted to porn and whatever and then you go well now that I'm saved that's out. Well that's easy. Okay, that's easy to see like that I can't do that and say I'm a follower of Christ. This doesn't that doesn't reconcile at all. >> But all right, now you start there. Okay. Well, what are the rocks? What are the rocks? Like what are you going out and doing with your buddies? >> Yeah. >> You know, and then it's what are you watching on TV? You know, and you know what what are you thinking about? Like you go to work every day. What do you think about who are you looking at? It it's just like you just it just slowly turns. I mean, you know, Howard and I have been to several Thunder games. I take my wife and family and everything and he will attest like when the cheerleaders are up on screen, I don't look at the screen. >> Yeah. [laughter] Same. >> My What's real funny is when I go to the game with my wife and she just goes like this. [laughter] Uh but it's, you know, it's definitely something like there is something to this process and over time it's it's like you are just it's you're never going to be fully clean. You just never will. It's not possible. But uh over time you'll just notice you'll be brushing dust off. You know those big things that you're dealing with, you don't you won't be dealing with it. They'll be so much easier to just avoid and discard. But then there's going to be all that stuff that you made compromises on early on that'll pop back up and you're still dusting off. >> Well, I think that's it's going to something you were all talking about the importance of the disciplehip process. >> Yeah. Because one of the issues with the seeker sensitive movement is that is typically attached to a church that so I was specifically talking uh with pastor Mark uh at our church faith bible about some other ministries um you know around our area and he he basically goes Kyle those churches don't have any doctrine >> like they don't they don't have any core set of beliefs other than more buildings like more butts and seats more downloads of the app more like whatever this the scorecard And so they're not even set up for disciplehip, right? It's almost like they punt on it. It's like, "All right, we'll do a do a home group, do a life group, do do something at home, and you know, you all just kind of do it on your own, and you'll figure it out, and you know, whatever. We'll just trust that things are actually happening." Because disciplehip is not, okay, we saw you raise your hand, one of the volunteers keyed in on you, and he gave you a packet on the way out the door that had a Bible and a CD with some worship music on it. >> You know what I like that that's not disciplehip. >> And so I I look back to whenever I became a Christian at the age of 15 um and you know got saved at First Baptist West and in Len Oklahoma and you know after I you know raised my hand and went down there and whatever I got pulled into a side room and one of the elders sat down and talked with me and just I guess kind of made sure I don't know a week or two later I get baptized. This was my second baptism. You know, the first one was, you know, I was in sixth grade and my mom would just drag me and my sister to this local Church of Christ. And one day on the way home, she's like, "Hey, you think it's about time y'all get baptized?" And I, as I've said, as as the joke, but I was serious, like I figured we would get Carl Jr. or Hardies afterwards. So, I was like, "Yeah, let's do it." Like, I'll get [laughter] I'll get some water for that. Um, and so it wasn't believers baptism, but then I had believers baptism at the age of 15. Uh, no no doubt in my mind that that was like, you know, a true repentant moment. And that was my first public declaration. And then nothing after that. >> I go to the salt seller in Lton, Oklahoma, or I mean I'm 15 so I probably had someone drive me in there to drop me off. And I go in there and I try to buy the most extreme teen looking Bible. And so I bought it. It's over there on the Well, it's actually back here on this shelf back here. >> And I just start digging it. Started in Matthew. >> Just started digging in. Well, I dig through the entire Old Testament. I mean, I'm running out of it looked like whenever, you know, Horn like highlights the Bible and it's like, bro, if you highlight everything except for four words on the page, just don't highlight anything. It's essentially [laughter] the same thing. We know it's all important >> and but that's how my Bible looked and I had notes in there and I'm, oh man, extreme is great and all that. >> Then I get into Genesis and then I kind of get bogged down in the Torah >> and I didn't have anyone to ask or anyone to go. And now when I look back, I was looking around for someone to feed me, right? I was looking around for somebody to do something for me. I could have and should have sought somebody out >> and asked some questions. Hey, would you mentor me? Hey, would all that. >> But even at, you know, a Baptist church that you would think would have like cuz this wasn't a seeker sensitive church at all. It was mainly it was a church for church people. Like there was no setup, there was no structure for any type of disciplehip. And disciplehip is so unbelievably important because if during the disciplehip process the person that is discipling you uh that is you know a mature Christian should be able to start to evaluate whether there is fruit there. >> Yeah. >> And then they can change the disciplehip conversation into an evangelistic conversation right to hey let's make sure we're we're saying the same things and meaning the same things here. But when you have all these churches that are just flying blind on the disciplehip process, I just I wonder how they think it happens. >> Yeah. >> Well, oh go ahead, Howard. No, >> I was just going to say I mean we talk about that disciplehip piece and you know Paul's really keying on keying in here on that putting off that old self. And I think if you have somebody like you're talking about that is mentoring you, they can help you take off some of that old self, right? And can convict you and say, "Hey, I I've noticed this in your life." Right? Because I think so many times and and I'm guilty because I I would say I'm a little bit of a people pleaser at times. I want to tell them the good things that they need to know, but we also have to have people that are willing to tell them tough things, right? And and have tough conversations and and make people feel convicted at times. And so um you know I'll just share you know a group of us guys meet and we talked about some things today and one of the guys you know he felt willing and convicted and shared that with all of us as a a group of men and you know how freeing that is when when that old self can be you know removed right like but that's a part of that brotherhood and that foxhole of of growing with each other >> you know the I it was I was 22 years old I I'm pretty sure when I started meeting with my mentor and [clears throat] it there was nothing like sexy about it. >> We sat down. >> He took me through something called the word hand. Now on the word hand you have hearing reading studying memorizing meditating and applying the word of God. He used that as an evaluative tool. And it took I 20 minutes to go through that. And he just wanted to know like well how do you how are you currently hearing the word? Are you going to church? You know, and we went down that path. How are you reading the word? Are you getting in the word, bro? This is where like 99% of people need to live because when you say, you know, you need someone across you that's going to convict you of stuff. If you can get them right here, that's going to convict them about 99% of the time. Now, you can nudge it along, right? What have you studied? Um, do you memorize scripture? I was like, bro, I don't memorize anything. I just went to school for like X, you know, read so many books. I'm not memorizing anything else. Get I had can't tell you how many verses he had me memorize and over the years, but we we memorized a lot. And then um obviously the meditation and the the big kicker was the application piece. And then what he did is he used that then and we would sit down and we literally do the dude did not assume anything. The first several times we had a quiet time together. We literally just opened the Bible, read for a few minutes. what stood out most to you? Is there anything that convicted you? Did you fall short on any of these areas or whatever? Uh and then what what do you think by the Holy Spirit spirit's uh guidance you could do about that? Those were three questions we answered every single time. And then over time after kind of getting that down and learning, okay, this is how you have a quiet time, he stopped doing that with me. And then we created something called a check chart. And this is where over I would say that check charts are great for a while because sometimes it just takes duty to move you to towards delight. >> Yeah. >> But um but we used a check chart and he's like all right well what do you want your standard to be reading the word every week? I was like well seven of course. So that was our that was my well that was my goal. And then he what's your standard like what's actually going to happen? I was like well I'll give me give myself a little bit of leeway. I'll put five. And so we did that on several different items and each week we I would just pass my ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch chart over to him >> and that's how he was kind of sort of evaluating like where I was from a discipline standpoint >> and then uh through other conversations he was getting at some of the fruit and like the experience like just what's what's been good in your life this week? Like what's what's gone wrong? How'd you respond to it? It was that kind of stuff. Those kinds of conversations we had every single week sitting across from one another and then we got into studies and did other things like that. But he spent time getting me uh rooted and established in the very very basics. And yes, we memorized scripture and that was that was challenging, but like bro, I can I can still pull stuff. Uh and it's very helpful for warding off temptation and keeping myself from sin. And I I cannot tell you how thankful I am to have had him in my life who didn't know me. All he had was a heart for other guys. He just had a heart for the guys. This I had this other gentleman put us together and we met at a bagel shop every week and I just got to know him over the years. But what I did know is that he was pace setting me. He was always ahead. He always had something to pass on. Uh he was reading and he would and what happened is he started passing his check chart over to me and I' I'd be able to see what he did, right? Good and bad, right? And we could talk about that. So it became mutual um like that. Um, and anyways, I I owe a lot to him for kind of where I am today because without him, I'm sure I would have made some steps forward in my sanct sanctification process, but I feel like I made leaps and bounds with his guidance all because he just loved me. >> Yeah, that's awesome. >> So, I was, you know, kind of going back to your comments about the church u that you attend and, you know, some of the disciplehip, you know, maybe not being up to par. Um, I'm curious, you know, uh, one of the things that I've always kind of looked at is, you know, I think there's kind of thinking back to the Megan Basham book, Shepherds for Sale. Uh, and if you read, um, if you read her like the the epilogue or the, you know, the post, you know, whatever you want to call it, um, she talked about why she's writing the book and where she was in her life at that time. And if she would have gone to a certain church that basically fed into some of the things that she believed at that time that essentially the disciplehip would have ended the first sermon she heard because essentially oh you're just affirming a whole bunch of things that I already believe. So I'm obviously doing the right thing. You know even if I'm affir if you're affirming one thing from the pullpit that she's going she walks in there and it's like well yeah that's what I believe already. So, what conviction is there? But one of the things I've, you know, um I remember when Stacy and I decided we were going to stop going to Catholic church, um this young man invited us to his church. He left a month later. I've tried not to take [laughter] it personal. >> Howard left. He left a month later and then uh but you know Stacy and I stuck around for a long time and I will tell you that it was probably the right church for me at that time because to be honest with you um I was I lived in a place where it was nothing but guilt and then now I'm at a church where there's not a lot of conviction coming from the pull pit. Okay. But it was probably the right place for me at that point. Um, and while I would say that there's not any like heresy coming from there, there's not a lot of conviction either. Um, one of the new guys in our Sunday school class actually, Scott, um, Scott actually mentioned that, you know, he started going, he listened to Mark and he said, "Mark's a great pastor." You know, we went, we were in a Sunday school class with a great teacher, but there's a difference between a great teacher and a great pastor. And Mark is a great pastor. like I leave there every Sunday going there's something for me to think about. There's something for me to probably uproot. >> And I think that's that's very positive. But I would also say I mean if you're going to a church that's like saying heretical things from the pulpit, yeah, you got to get out of there. But at the same time, if you're going to a I mean I do think sometimes switching churches and and and finding a new shepherd is is sometimes something that you do need to do. uh that it's part of the sanctific sanctification process as well. >> Well, it's not even finding a new shepherd. It's just finding a shepherd. Yeah. >> Because I keep calling back to the interview that Mark did um on the show that came out in mid-March. >> He was like, "Kyle, there are pastors at churches that aren't even Christians." >> Mhm. >> These are people that went to seminary. They have a degree, may even have a PhD. They're not believers. Mhm. >> They they found something in >> ministry that attracted them. >> Could be their own personal narcissism. It could be like a God complex that they have that they're trying to figure out through a God adjacent thing and they get a job because they can answer the questions right on a test essentially. >> Yeah. >> And then they're given a flock. >> Mhm. >> And so I mean the writer of Hebrews, I bring it up all the time. says that, you know, pastors are going to have to give an account for how they've shepherded their flock. But I mean, we know I was about to say, what does God do with a shepherd that wasn't a Christian to begin with? Well, he's going to be evaluated just like any other Christian with any other kind of a job. But I just wonder how the punishment will differ when they are leading even unknowingly leading other people astray because part of the thing is is >> you know, we talk about, you know, churches that struggle with disciplehip. Well, again, what does good disciplehip take? Well, it's going to take struggle. You got to like have some volunteers because you got to think, >> did did the guy that mentored you for several years, Browning, did he end up writing a book about y'all's time together? >> Not that I know. >> He didn't write a book. Wait, did he go on tour and and you know, like teach disciplehip classes around the country? Does he have a lot of followers on Instagram, subscribers on YouTube? No, he doesn't have any of those things. >> None of that. It's just a dedicated faithful [snorts] man whose legacy part of his legacy is what he did with you that led to what you're doing with sandstone. It's leading to the wisdom that you are giving to fathers who are changing their family trees with their sons and subsequently their daughters as well. >> Yeah. >> And you think about everyone's got that person that unsung hero, right? That is part of the process that led them to do something. Someone shared the gospel with Billy Graham. >> Mhm. >> Right. >> Do we know that person's name? >> We do know. >> Do we? >> Yes. Uh what's his name? >> Exactly. >> He's from the Navigator. Howard from the Navigator. [laughter] So, you know, >> there was this bad guy. >> There was this tent revival deal. Gosh, it'll come to me. >> Yeah. See, you're actually making my point, Howard. But that's the thing is >> he he made seats for Billy Graham and his buddy to hear the word of God. And gosh, who's the guy? Not Wes Huff, but uh >> it wasn't Wes. [laughter] >> So, so the >> Josh Howton has a video that talks about it. >> John Wesley. >> No, it wasn't John Wesley. >> Sounded [laughter] good though. You said it with confidence. But the point being is that there are so many unsung heroes that are just giving their time and talent away to help shepherd someone along. And then if you go to a church with a really good speaker who has the title of senior pastor >> or lead teaching pastor or whatever you know modern form of that they want to take but they're not shephering anybody. >> Yeah. >> They're not even shephering an elder board. They don't even have an elder board. They have a board of directors which are just their buddies that are pastors at other churches. >> An elder board that doesn't even get together if not on Zoom. Right. the an elder board that can't name a single member of the church because they're not involved in the church because they don't even attend there because they're not elders. They're on the board of directors. There's no consequence there because if you're the head guy, you've now insulated yourself from being taken away from your own pulpit. >> And then but the numbers are good. Yeah. The buildings you're building are big. You're building more of them, right? Your annual report looks nice. And that that's the difference is are we creating disciples one and then are we shephering those disciples along the sanctification journey two. >> Mhm. >> Like what's >> it's not optional. >> The the video that was shared in our text thread the other day uh the the the Chandler Ferdict debate which was are you growing attendance >> elephant room or whatever. >> Yeah. Are you growing attendance or are you growing attendees? you know, um, and and sometimes, look, I I mean, I'm one that believes that sometimes I can be one and the same. You know, you it's possible to do both. I mean, it's kind of hard to look at. I mean, I'm parking in the grass at Faith Bible right now whenever we show up. >> You're one of those [laughter] guys. >> There's no other place to park. >> He's one of those modern Ford Bronco guys. Look, I got an off-road. I'm going to pop a curb. >> Yep. >> Yeah. >> Okay. [laughter] Fair enough. >> Fair enough. >> I'm awesome. Uh so one one thing I did want to ask to is it okay if we circle back to baptism real quick because I do have a question. So okay so I hear a lot the u the public declaration of faith and it is that okay but to me it's a lot more than that sometimes I feel like you know because we we've decided that you know and I say decided but since baptism is not essential to >> uh the salvation >> um my I I do wonder sometimes if we cheapen it a little bit that we kind of you know same thing with communion that maybe it's I uh that maybe we don't always have a proper reverence for it. Um I've to me baptism is actually the closest that we can get in sharing in the humiliation of Christ's death and his rebirth. Okay? Because you know, we can't be buried um you know, you can't be buried for three days and just say, "All right, if I hope you wake up." Um this is the closest that we can do. >> And so I look at it as um to I mean to me it's super important. And maybe that's just my upbringing. Um I think it's I think it is something that it's while it's not salvific, I definitely don't want people to think that it's not important. you know, if well, if I need to do a public decoration of faith, I can just wear a shirt around says like, you know, I'm a follower of Christ. It's like, no, it there's something deeper here. >> Well, there is something deeper. And I mean, we see that in verses three and four. Let's actually Howard, can you read three and four for us? >> Excuse me. Three and four. Do you not know that all of us have been baptized into Christ Jesus? All of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death. We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the father, we too might walk in the newness of life. Raised to walk in the newness of life. I'm pretty sure that's what was said as I was being pulled out of the water um at First Baptist West when I was 15 years old. I mean, obviously um it is important in as much as it can be important because it's a symbol. Mhm. >> is a it is a public symbol because if we elevate it there there is a point where you elevate the work to a point where it seems salvific or seems required. Right? >> Another thing that Mark and I talked about is you know we talked about certain traditions like Church of Christ that believe no no yeah it's faith plus baptism and you go wait a minute that's a work. They go no it's not. And then it's like why isn't it a work? Because it's not because we're told to do it. >> We're told to do a lot of things that are works. Well, that's just not one of them. And he had a really, really good explanation that I had never heard before because I'd been in some of these debates with people. Um, he said, "There are five verses where that are basically beaten into people at our Church of Christ that are like, these are the verses that prove that we are right that yes, faith, but you have to be baptized. If you don't get baptized, you're not saved. You can't go to heaven." Right? And they've got all their explanations around that. But he said there are around 150 other references throughout the New Testament and there's like dozens just in the book of John that say it's grace through faith. Grace through faith. Grace through faith. And so he's like so when you have something that it points to a point of contention between different groups of Protestants or believers or whatever, >> do we evaluate the five based on the 150 or the 150 based on the five? He's like, "It is a much better idea to evaluate what we have the majority of scripture saying." >> Yeah. >> And we evaluate the five things that seem to say something else or seem to make an addition by what is said in the 150. And that provides context and it provides explanation for what is being explained or what is being extold right there in those other five verses. And so because I don't think anyone can make a good argument as to why baptism is not uh require required for because it is it is the first thing that we are told to do. And so if you get saved and it's real regeneration and the Holy Spirit is saying you know communicating to you all right you got to get baptized let's get baptized let's get baptized and you just yeah I'll get to it. I'll get to it. I'll get to it. You are sinning in that moment. Yeah, delayed obedience is disobedience, >> right? But avoiding the water does not take away your salvation. It's not like, hey, you did everything right, you know, Holy Spirit went into you and all that because it's like, wait, does do we just take the Holy Spirit away? Do does are you no longer imputed with with righteousness or with justification because you neglected to do something additional? Right? That is definitionally faith plus works. Right? And as we established earlier, that's that's the Catholic position is faith plus works equals justification. However, the biblical position is faith, grace through faith, not by works so that no man may boast. >> And so I I think again, I don't think even in light of Romans 6 3 and 4 that you could say that like why even use the words of baptism like the the descriptions of baptism if it wasn't important. >> But I think I think if your church is pointing you in the direction and putting you on the path towards baptism and saying you need to do this, that's about all you can do and probably about all you should do. What do you think about churches with um I know Nazarene churches require multiple baptisms. Um as part infant baptism and then >> No, no, no. Like um like if you sin part of the part of your reconciliation with God is actually you have to be baptized over again. >> Oh, I guess I haven't heard that. >> Oh man. So, is the expectation that after baptism you're not supposed to sin anymore? >> I guess so. >> Cuz then you get baptized constantly every day. [laughter] >> Just live in the baptism. >> That's That's right. I mean, you shoot, I had another bad thought. >> You die once, right? You >> Why build a pool, Kyle? [laughter] >> Take it easy. Heat in pools. It helps. >> Oh gosh. But no, I mean that that was always an interesting concept to me was which which was, you know, I I would hear like some of my friends from high school that would be like, "Yeah, we're getting baptized." And I'm like, "Oh, that's awesome." And they were like, "Well, no, I've been baptized before." And I was like, "Why are you getting it again? >> What' you do? [laughter] >> What' you do this time?" >> I remember being confused at the whole process of baptism as a kid. Cuz when I was like 5 years old, my grandmother was dying of cancer. And a few days before she passed, they took her to a church and baptized her. And so my my concept of what baptism was because we didn't go to church. I didn't know really anything. I'd heard the name Jesus, but I I didn't know anything about anything. I was like, "Oh, okay." So like when you do bad stuff, like if it's really bad, they call it sin. So they don't call it a mistake or, you know, a whoopsy daisies. They call it a sin. And when you when you do that stuff just gets all over you, right? It's just it's on you, right? >> But if you can time it, if you're like, I'm about to die. uh you know the the doctors have you know you got a few days or a few hours >> let's go get you dunked in water. Let's get all that muck off of you and you just won't have enough time to accumulate more of that dirty sin stuff anymore. >> Yeah. >> And that was basically my idea until I got baptized 10 years later. Right. Like that was that was my explanation. And I mean obviously that falls to pieces. What about people that die instantaneously from a gunshot or a heart attack or a car accident or something like that? There's no timing in that uh for believers. But yeah, I mean gosh, I wonder what in the world their substantiation would be for multiple baptisms along the way. And even as we talked about the Church of Christ tradition, you know, as been as I've been told from that tradition is like they believe as well that if you die with any unrepented sin in your life that you don't get to go to heaven either. It's like, "Okay, well now you just added future and continuing repentance, the works of that to the list of things that you got to do in order to be saved." I was like, "Bro, you just keep adding to the list. The list is fulfilled. It's been done." >> I guess I don't know how they argue we might uh walk in the newness of life after that. So, [laughter] >> I mean, it does bring up something that we'll continue to talk about in in six. Um because it's like um let me see. I mean, we'll get into this in the next section, but we'll make this discussion uh 61-64. Um, but like verse 6, we know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. The obvious question is then why do Christians still sin? >> Yeah. Because we're being being saved from the power of sin, >> right? That is what sanctification is, is being saved of the power of sin. But we're still in the presence of sin, too. So, we're in the world, and so >> we're still going to be tempted by it. >> Well, and we've transferred from being in Adam to being in Christ. >> So, what has changed is our relationship >> to sin. That's what changed >> because sin no longer has dominion or I saw someone say tyrannical power over us. >> That has been severed, right? And so I think that's the difference is it's like your relationship to sin changes but your sin nature is still there. I think that would be would be fair to say. Augustine described it uh Augustine described it as we are a horse with one rider which is Satan uh prior to conversion and then upon conversion Jesus takes the reigns but the entire time Satan is trying to he's trying to get his his bit back into our mouth so that he can direct us in the in the place that he wants us to go. >> So um [clears throat] it is a neverending battle. I mean, again, I I you know, uh I I remember like after I got saved for the first time, like first time that's funny. So, but I remember after I got saved, I mean, I was just like, man, this is just everything's rosy. This is amazing. This is great. And then you hit that first piece of adversity and it's that first testing of your faith and you're like, I thought everything was just supposed to be awesome now and it's just not. I mean, you're you're going to get tested constantly. Um, and you're going to suffer. One of my I can't remember who said it, uh, but it's one of my favorite quotes. God made, uh, one man without sin, but no man without suffering. Um, and so there's this, you know, again, part of that sanctification process. You are constantly being refined, molded, changed, >> uh, throughout this process. >> It requires obedience. It requires that it requires that you're listening. Um, >> one of my, again, one of my a quote is a quote I read, and again, I'm I'm horrible about giving people proper due, so I'm assume that, but a quote I read was, um, you know, there's a lot of people that think that, you know, God does not speak to people or that he's not, you know, um, and that they may be right that he doesn't speak to them because he knows that either they'll think that they are hallucinating or they're not going to do what they what he asked them to do anyway. And so I think that I do think when I say you have to listen and and that obedience only comes with that with that instruction. I think I'm assuming everybody at this table at some time has heard, you know, not just being spoken to through the word, but I'm assuming that all of us have probably heard at some point in our lives, something that we just felt like talk to that person or, you know, this person, you know, this person needs your help or give or I mean, my word, the amount of times that I'm sitting in a room and somebody's, you know, you're at you just like, hey, this person needs your help, you know? and they're telling you about this bad thing that's happened. It's like they need your help. Go help. It's like, "All right, I'm in." But it requires so much obedience. Um, I think that's the key to the sanctification process. >> Well, yeah. It's impossible. I've talked about before. I first time I talked about this was um I was talking to John Cooper of Skillet and we released kind of like a a combo episode. So, we released on his podcast and my podcast. You guys should go listen to John Cooper's podcast. It's great. It's called Cooper Stuff. Um, but I was talking about this concept of delayed sanctification because I already mentioned that, you know, didn't have anyone discipling me, didn't have anyone helping. You know, I guess I was too dumb or too stubborn to ask. I I don't know exactly which as I reflect back on that time period of my life. You know, I was 10 years away from my brain being fully developed. So, you know, don't don't, [laughter] you know, hold it against me or whatever. But I felt like my sanctification was just paused, >> right? >> Cuz I went to a milk church for over 10 years where I, you know, I got entertained. I got my ears tickled. Um, and you know, I volunteered and I I did all the things, but it was just milk, milk milk milk. >> And the thing is is when you're used to milk all the time, you're used to being fed. >> Yeah. >> Cuz what is a baby that is, you know, raised on milk, >> they're constantly waiting for the bottle or, you know, the boob. Like that's that's what they're waiting on. And they're just looking around like, when am I going to get fed? Is somebody Hey, I am crying. Doesn't don't people hear me? I am crying. That means I'm hungry. or any myriad of other issues that could possibly be going on. And so I feel like my sanctification was because of me, right? I can I can point to other things that would have helped, but because of me was just paused. >> Yeah. >> And then, you know, getting into Undaunted Life, obviously, I've talked about, you know, the founding of the forging table idea and kind of where all that came from. And now that we're continuing to do the forging table, we've added the daily blade. And so I'm just constantly needing to be in the word for the job, right, of the content creation. But just by virtue of the fact that I'm spending more time in it, I'm seeking out more resources so that I can absorb more of it. I'm studying it more. I'm rolling it around in my brain more and trying to put certain things in my own word so I can package it in a way that a man can take it and take it with him and to help him get more of a of a hunger and a thirst for what's being taught in the word and all those different things and things God's trying to communicate. But for a lot of people, I wonder if there's just this, I guess, a kind of arrested development with their sanctification process, and they just think that that's just kind of the way it's going to be. Like, ah, you know, I'm 45 years old. This is probably as good as it's going to get, right? Uh, you know, things are just going to kind of go downhill from here. Not much I can do about it. And I'm like, man, [laughter] you're alive, brother. >> So, it's like, you think God's got more stuff he's got planned for you? Pretty sure he does because you're still here. And you know, your sanctification journey will only go as fast as as you pursue it, right? And so, like Brownie, what you were talking about is very similar to what Pastor Mark said is he had a mentor very early in life that I think it was every Friday night they would study the Bible for three hours together every night or every Friday night, right? Every single week. >> And you know, think about because I mean, when when Mark was here, it's like, you know, when you squeeze somebody, whatever is inside of them comes out. So when someone gets squeezed by the stress of their job and they start taking it out on all the people around them, all right, because that's what's in there. Like if you squeeze somebody and put them in a in a bad situation or put them in the corner, like how they react is kind of what's in there. You squeeze Mark and Bible verses just come out, right? It's [laughter] not because it's not because it's similar to Phil Robertson, right? It's just in there, >> right? >> It oozes from them, right? >> Yeah. Phil's just sitting there in his chair the first time I'm interviewing them and he's just like he's got his Bible in his lap and he's just like, "Look at here, man." And then he just flips to a page and starts reading blah blah blah because he knows where he's going. And it's not it's not like oh I memorized this because I was part of a wana as a kid and I got the super duper Awana award or [snorts] whatever that is or I was like lead navigator for the year something like that. And so you can tell when people are bringing up scripture because they're like oh I knew they were going to ask about that and here's my 10 scriptures I can put out to make me sound smart. Nope. It's just in there and it just makes sense that that is just worked into their normal vernacular because a lot of us like we are we are influenced by the things of culture, right? You mentioned earlier you're like um in my early 20s I don't memorize anything. >> You can remember the words to a song you last heard on the radio when you were in fifth grade. >> Sure. >> You memorize that, but you didn't know you were memorizing it. You memorize lineups, right? You memorize formations. I bet you still if your dad were to pop in this room right now and like give you a call like did you play offense or defensive football maybe? >> I actually played both cuz >> both ways [laughter] I'm going to start calling you both ways and I that's got a lot of meanings but [laughter] I bet you hey but no I bet you if he came in here and gave you a call right you would know where you needed to line up right on offense or defense you memorized it. It's just in there. You squeeze it and that's what's come what comes out. But for a lot of guys, they have like you squeeze them and there's none of this. There's no Bible in them because they don't spend any time in the sanctification process even trying to absorb what they have right here. >> Well, and and and I think there's something to be said about the size of the church that you attend. If your only touch point is your pastor >> and and all you're doing is listening and receiving, >> that that's really as far as it's going to go. I mean, maybe the word sticks and you get some conviction or whatever, >> but like you don't have necessarily a personal relationship with that guy. Sunday school class is better cuz it's a little bit smaller except y'all's class is like got 80 people in it. Sorry about every time I every time I teach, but people keep [laughter] >> Oh gosh. >> But like but you get into those smaller groups and it's a little bit more touch point. People are like, "Well, how you doing?" You know, tell them about your life, blah blah blah. And then you get into these one-on-one situations or very small groups where you got three or four guys or whatever. And then you can get into these areas where like I was gonna ask you and we don't have to go into it now, but like >> just the idea of confession, how was that working out for you? Because I know that when we were in when you're in the Catholic church that that was just more of a regular thing. When you're in a Protestant church or whatever, Baptist, whatever it is, you how do you find that? Where do you go? Do you you sounds like you probably need to have it. >> Yeah, you probably need to have small group of guys [clears throat] or whatever that you feel comfortable with or whatever. Obviously, we should be confessing our sins to the Lord in our personal quiet time and all that sort of thing. Yeah. Right. So, but here's what I think is I think a lot of people go to these big churches and just get very comfortable and they just take whatever that that preacher is saying at face value. I was reminded of a of a um of [clears throat] a verse. It sounds weird when I read it, but I'll explain it. Uh Paul and Silas Silas in Berea is the titles. Uh this is Acts 7:10 and 11. It says, "The brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. And when they arrived, they went into the Jewish synagogue." And then it says, "Now these Jews in the Jewish synagogue were more noble than those in Thessalonica. They received the word with all eagerness, examining the scriptures daily to see if these things were so." So, they were going to church and they weren't just going, "Okay, pastor said it. I'm good. We're good." Right? No, they were taking it. They were eager to receive it. They went home and in their little small groups of their families or whatever, they're like, "Hey, let's take this stuff that the pastor is saying and see if it's actually what what it's supposed to be and they they're searching out the truth." And I just don't think people do that. And I think they get caught up in these churches where pastors are being heretical and they have no idea. They just it sounds good, we'll take it, whatever. I'm going to get rich cuz I'm giving to the Lord, you know, whatever. And uh they end up in these situations like this where they're not truly growing. >> They're just they're just feeling good about themselves. And we live in a, you know, we always talk about we're here in Edmond, you know, we don't go through a lot of challenges in in this day and age, right? And so we don't see that need as much for it like some of those people in that day would have had that need like, okay, I I really got to put this old self off. We don't we don't see ourselves as needing to be sanctified as, yeah, I've got a little things here, but I really don't feel that conviction to have to to change. >> You're not killing anybody. >> I'm not killing anybody. you know, I've been raised in the church, you know, >> and if you're in a church that is not sanctifying you, but also if the pastor is doing life lessons and backing into scripture, the the thing about a church like Faith Bible, like what Mark does is he exposits the word verse by verse. >> Yeah. >> There's nowhere to hide, right? Like for him, there's nowhere to hide because if he doesn't know what he's talking about, like he's not going to have a whole lot to say. But then also there's nowhere to hide for us >> because it's like you you have to reckon with the scripture because he's taken you to it. The only way that you can not not, you know, absorb it is almost to try not to or just to not attend, right? Or if you attend, be brain dead while you're there, right? And just like completely check out, you know, mentally and just not be a part of the process. >> And so that's my encouragement to people because I get people that ask me all the time. They're like, "Look, I live in who who's this? What's its Minnesota? um you know, do you know of any man-friendly churches in my area? I'm like, bro, I don't know the man friendly churches in my zip code. Like I like I don't have like a running list. That would be I'd have a team of hundred people. That would be our full-time job just to constantly update this list, you know, and see when people will enter it or leave it. But I just tell them like make sure you're going to a place where the word is being exposited, explained word by word, or at least verse by verse. Make sure they're going through books of the Bible. Yeah, you can have some topical stuff here and there. No big deal. But then, yeah, look around. Are there men there? Is there a healthy amount of people with gray hair and a healthy amount of kids running around? That that tells you about the healthy future of this body? Like, are are the men engaged in worship? Are the men engaged in the volunteer opportunities? Are there elders? Are the elders visible? Are they available? If someone is saved, what is the process thereafter of of disciplehip, of sanctification, that getting them plugged in with, you know, a Sunday school class or getting them plugged in with some sort of a home group where these people are equipped uh to to be able to continue with that disciplehip process. So, I think all that is is uh very very important. But guys, believe it or not, you know what we just did? >> We just completed episode 900. >> What? >> Of life, a man's podcast. >> Can you Can you believe that? That's awesome. >> Why Why am I still doing this? Like I don't even know 900. [laughter] That's a preposterous amount of talking. >> That's a lot of talking. >> Basically, what that means is when AI, you know, takes over and all that, I have put so much in to the the the front end of that, they're going to be able to get me to say anything. So guys, if you get >> You know what I'm doing? You know what I'm doing? I'm going to AI and I'm going to get a version of Kyle singing Go Cubs Go and I'm just going to play. [laughter] I'd rather me sing like a Pride Month anthem or [laughter] something. Well, I guess it's the same thing. Same same. >> Same. Same. And with that, guys, uh we're [laughter] going to get out of here. Come back next week ready to get into Romans 65. But before we do that, we are going to do a quick resilience boost. At Undaunted Life, our mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Don't forget, we have a partnership with Logos. We have done an undaunted life study bundle. Logos.com/donedlife. It's logos.com/adonedlife. That is in the show notes. You guys can check that out. Lots of great resources. We also have a forging table starter set. So, if you want to start your own forging table, we've got a starter set with Crossway you can get at a 50% discount. Also, we're a donation based ministry. So, if you wonder how we're able to have lights and electricity and microphones and all the different things, cuz we have guys just like you, not special people, not people that have been especially blessed financially, just people like you giving 20 bucks a month, 50 bucks a month, 150 bucks one time to support the mission of equipping men around the globe to push back darkness. And we would just highly encourage you guys to get on there, become a supporter of what we're doing. Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive fivestar review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, shoot me an email to info@undanton.life, that's info@undanton.life, follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www.undton.life. And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is their song Perpetual, which is off their self-titled debut album on Faceown Records. The links are in the description. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the Lion of Judah. [music]