Hey guys, real quick. So, I've talked to men literally all across the globe about where they're missing the mark and how they want to improve. They normally talk about how they wish they were in better shape. They wish they had a better relationship with their loved ones. They wish they had more success and influence at work and some other stuff like that. But here are some of the most common and biggest things that I hear. I wish I knew more about the Bible. I wish I could lead my family spiritually. I wish I could recall more scripture. I wish Bible study wasn't such a struggle. Well guys, I've got news for you. You don't have to keep wishing. It's time for you to start doing. It's time for you to stop wasting your time and money on stuff that has no eternal value whatsoever. I keep hearing you talk about how you want to be more biblically literate and spiritually resilient. And now is your chance to prove that you mean it. That's why I want you to take advantage of our partnership with the most powerful Bible software on planet Earth, Logos. So, Logos approached me about putting something together for the Undaunted Lifers out there, and we collaborated to create something I'm super pumped about, the Undaunted Life Study Bundle. So, here's the skinny on the bundle. There are over 200 individual resources and they include titles from authors like Vodie Bacham, Charles Spurgeon, RC Sproul, John MacArthur, Matt Chandler, Dietrich Bonhaofer, William Lane, Craig, Paul Washer, John Scott, Doug Wilson, Paul David Trip, Jipacker, and a whole bunch more. And there are so many helpful resources in there. There's Bibles, commentaries, Old and New Testament study guides, devotionals, systematic theologies courses dictionaries histories encyclopedias non-fiction books, and more and more and more. And here's the most insane part about this deal. If you were to buy each individual resource by yourself inside of Logos, it would cost you over $3,000. $3,000. But if you get the Undaunted Life Study bundle, you'll get all 200 plus resources for just $349.99. Guys, that's $3,000 worth of stuff for 350 bucks, guys. That's almost 90% off. And you know that you waste more than that on the hobbies that you have right now all the time. And these won't help you with your disciplehip and sanctification journeys, right? It's time to get real and take control of your Bible study and spiritual development. Click the link in the show notes for this episode. If you want the link, it's logos.com/undaunted life. That's www.llog.com/undauntedlife or the link in the show notes. It's super easy to sign up. Again, go to the show notes and click the link or go to logos.comlife. Sign up for Logos and get the Undaunted Life study bundle right now. This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. >> Welcome back to the forging table. The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. At the forging table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience by digging into God's word. And we're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with us at Zach. That is Russ. But Ryan, as I live and breathe roughly 30 seconds ago, what was it that he said? He just said, "Get him out." >> Unprovoked. >> And I'm like, "Get what out?" You're like, "Get him out." He looked right through my soul that I don't even have. And what you were talking about is >> these smelling salts. >> Smelling salts. >> Nobody was talking about them. Nobody was like, "Ryan's the only one that didn't do them." You were just sitting there contemplative over there in the corner and then you just decided this has to happen. >> It has to happen. Can I give some people background? >> Let's go. >> We do four of these >> at a time. Yeah. >> At a time. And usually this this is the last recording of the day. And it's it's a it's a pretty important one for me because the last time we had this discussion, I almost left the forging table. >> Yeah. You kind of act like a baby. >> I was acting like a little a little baby back dude. And uh >> and um like I I'm I'm all ready for this, but I'm like, man, I need a pickme up. Let's go. >> LIKE I NEED SOME >> ALL RIGHT. WELL, >> you know, >> here we go. But here's the thing. You're in the corner. >> And so if if this >> Oh, we have a trash can. If your free willie moment doesn't go well, like there's no easy exit. >> Let's just say what's going to happen here is I'm going to ruin my iPad. >> Okay. >> I hope you do. >> There you go. All right. But here's the thing. I need you to look right at your camera. I need you to look right at your camera as you hit it. Okay. >> All right. >> All right. Here we go. But just keep your eyes closed. Don't be ridiculous. >> Yeah. >> Rust is not looking >> Oh, yeah. >> OKAY. ALL RIGHT. SEE? NOT SO BAD. ARE YOU HITTING IT AGAIN? Pass it around. Okay, we're hitting it again. We're not going to let you be by yourself. We're not going to let you be by yourself. >> Oh, that was too That was too close. That was way too close. See, the first time >> I will say this one isn't as as bad cuz it's been in it's been open for a while. But when I opened this, it was when you were here last time. I felt it in my brain still because I went way too hard. Way too close. >> This is a new one since you've opened >> like the one that was sweating the last time. >> Yeah, this was the one that was sweating last time. >> That was us. >> Yeah. >> Was Russ on that one? I think you were, >> but whatever I hit. Yeah, it was it was deeply problematic. >> I remember it was bad. >> All right, let's go. Let's go. Let's go. Let's go. >> Do it. Do it. >> That one went in this nostril. Did we talk about this? How your nostrils? >> Yeah, they go to different parts of your brain. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Like if you're right-handed, I think it's your left nostril that picks up all the ethanol if you're smelling a whiskey or something like that. >> You keep that like in the gym or do you keep it like >> No, I keep it up here. I don't even need it for the gym. The gym, I just need water and a bad attitude. >> All right, but here's the thing. We're going to have to delay just a little bit. We're going to kind of keep you chomping at the bit because I wasn't going to do this until the next one, but like I'm I'm being selfish here because every now and then I come across like games or whatever. And so like I don't know if some of y'all have seen this, but this will just be, you know, fodder for the people that think I'm owned by the Jews because the Daily Wire sponsored the show for a second. So I guess I'm getting $7,000 right from Netanyahu because I'm bringing up this game. So on the Michael Nolles show, there's a game called Yes or No. It's a thing. People think every time I say something anti-Candace Owens or pro Jerusalem that I'm getting paid $7,000 a time. >> Where's that money? Think about it, guys. >> I just don't keep up with >> If that were the truth, >> I would only say negative things about Candace Owens and positive things about Israel. Why would I waste my time talking about anything else if every time I got seven grand for the mention, you morons. All right, but here's the thing. So, >> can I get that money? >> All right. Yeah, we can share it around. We can share it around. So, this is what we're going to do. So, this game is called uh Yes or No. We're not going to do the drinking portion of this game, but here's what we do. So, basically, what do we got here? Okay, we got there's a host, which will kind of like move around, but it's a guessing game. Okay, so I'll be the host first, and then you guys get these things that say yes or no on it. And so, I'm going to pull a card out of here, and if you're the host, you I you basically take your host yes or no because I got both of these, right? I got a host yes and a host no. And so, I'm going to read the card and then I'm going to put the one down that applies to me, right? and y'all have to try and guess. Okay. Okay. >> So, you're going to try to guess yes or no. If you guess right, you get a point. >> Now, there there's a drinking game element to it where if you all guess right, then I lose, you know, a point. Or if you know, you all guess wrong, whatever. We're just not going to do that. But it's like the first to 10 uh getting it correctly, but after each question, the host moves like, you know, kind of counterclockwise or whatever. So, just for the first one. All right. So, I've got my yes and no. So, I'm just going to grab a random one from the box. Okay. Uh, and so what you're basically trying to say is would I agree with this statement? Okay. Yes or no? You should marry your high school sweetheart and wait. So I I give mine first and then y'all go and put your guess down. >> Oh, so you have two host. >> Yeah. So I have a yes host card and a no host card, but y'all don't know which is which. So we just put it down. Yeah. Y'all go and put down what you think. You should marry your high school sweetheart. You say no. No. No. >> This is what you think. >> I put yes. Oh, >> I put yes because I think for most people uh they're they kind of miss out on uh stuff because they're always looking for okay they they've fallen for the you know is this person the one for me or whatever and so they kind of miss out on their window for potentially having kids and for a lot of people like look at arranged marriages divorce rates are significantly lower than non-arranged marriages stuff like that as well. >> Question who is your high school sweetheart? I didn't really have one. So, I didn't really have Didn't really have one. Maybe you had one. >> That's impactful. >> Yeah. Shut up. Thompson's list. >> We get We get some funny We get some funny stuff. All right. So, that we're moving on the host thing uh to Ryan. And so, >> you already got a card. I was >> Yeah. So, you got a Yes. So, you you hang on to yours. >> Okay. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, but you've got a yes and a no. So, go and pull the card and read it. >> So, pull the card and read it. And so, no one got a point there. So, keep track of your own points cuz first one to 10 wins. Everyone got zero on that one. >> Zero points. >> I'm keeping track of my own. >> All right. All right. So, read it out loud. >> The CIA killed JFK. >> All right. So, we're thinking what what we think Ryan would say. The CIA. >> Okay. He's got to put his answer out first. No. Ryan. No, we have to guess what your answer is. >> So, you here. So, you put it down the other way down till I win. >> Well, I'll redo it. I'll redo it. Oh my gosh. I win. >> Okay. But, but the answer was no. The answer was yes. Wait. That's my That's my old tile. >> CIA definitely killed him. Global warming isn't 100 100% fake. Global warming isn't 100% fake. Okay. What do we think Ryan would say? Ryan, put an answer down that says host. >> Global warming isn't 100% fake. Okay. >> What we got? Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. Boom. Did we all say yes? >> That's a point for everybody. >> That's a point for everybody. Everybody except for me. >> Yeah. Except for you. You can't win your own. So, we all got one. >> What's that? >> I have one point. >> Yeah. Here you go. All right, Russ's turn. >> You don't have the right to kill yourself. >> Okay, go ahead and put your answer down. >> Two nos and a yes. >> I think you don't have the right to kill yourself. >> Yes. You don't think we have the right to kill ourselves? >> Yes. I don't think you have the right to kill yourself. >> I got a point on that one. You got a point. >> Okay. Yeah, you got a point. So, you >> I would think that I would think that you have the right to kill yourself. >> Well, of course, you have the right cuz you can do it. >> You have the right. >> Okay. >> See, that's why you have the right. But see, that's why it's not just the questions. It's the discussion afterwards like, "What? You thought I thought this or yeah, I thought you thought that." So, yeah, it just depends on how literally we thought you you took the the initial one. All right. >> All right. So, pass the host things here. We'll just discard over here. >> Discard in the middle. I'm just curious, you know, kind of where we landed on these. That's why I wanted to do it. Didn't want to wait until the next batch. All right, Zach, go and read. Only perves get kinky with their spouses. Okay, he's got to put his answer down first. All right, don't I'm not looking. Can I just pass? >> Absolutely not. >> Oh, wait. Bam. >> Everybody say no. >> Yeah. Unless your definition of being kinky with your wife is that >> it's something curve but >> right. Okay. >> I mean who you should be kinky with. >> Oh no. >> Let's put it right there in the middle. Okay. Shabbam. All right. I'll just grab from the middle here. All right. The Loch Ness monster is real >> like dragons. >> The Loch Loch Ness monster is real. I have given my answer. No. No. Yes. No. Stupid big fish. That ain't That ain't real. So, how many points everybody I I have two. >> I have three. >> Three. >> One. >> One. >> Two. >> All right. Here you go. >> I definitely would have thought that you would have had some like biblical like reference to why you thought it was real. >> Let's say it was a dragon in the garden. Saying >> we should get involved in protecting democracy around the world. >> Man, I'm not answering for me. I got to remember I'm answering for Ryan. >> Yeah, I know. >> All right. Did you put your answer down? It's >> down. All right, everybody gets a point. Yes. Yes. Yes. We're all around. All right, Russ, you're next. >> We're going to 10. >> Going to 10. First one to 10. >> Nah, >> this game's boring. >> No. Shut your stupid mouth. There's something fun happening at five. You big doof. >> In general, poetry should rhyme. All right, that one was dumb. All right, just All right, we're gonna make a change after this one then. All right, go ahead. Go ahead. Put your put your >> All right. >> All right, let your yes be yes and your no BE NO. OH, YOU DON'T THINK SO? All right, here we go. All right, this is what we're going to do. >> All right, so let's gather these cards real quick. >> All right, bang. No, you you hang on to those. So, I'm taking the cards because there's a expander set >> called the yes or no game conspiracy expansion set. And so, these are only conspiracies. >> This has got So, Candace Owens wrote this deck. >> Oh my gosh. All right. All right. Here we go. >> Did the CIA kill JFK? >> All right. Here we go. So, guess we're going to put it right there. All right. Who's next? Who's next one up? >> Uh, Zack. >> All right. Zack, you're up. No wonder you have to add drinking to the other side of that game. Makes it more me. Dude, we would be hammered now. That would be the problem. Many world leaders regularly commune with demons, knowingly or unknowingly. Uh yeah. >> How in the world can you say no? Uh, >> like I said, >> you don't think world leaders commune with demons >> knowing or knowingly or unknowingly. I don't think that knowingly. There's a large amount of people. >> That's not what the question said. >> Convening. >> You added to the question. >> I agree with you. I agree with you. I just thought your answer would be different, but commune mean kind of insinuates there's a a meaningful >> connection there. All right. Wait, that's yours. All right. All right. Give me the All right. Here we go. Next one. The United Nations exists to consolidate world power into the hands of a few. Ryan says yes. Russell says no. >> Zach says no. Darn right they do. What else is their point? They're not actually peacekeepers over there. What are they doing? Get out of here. Get out of here. The UN. All right. Here you go, Ryan. Well, for reference, when I was there, it seemed like all they wanted to do was share with everybody and and take everything that we've got and take it to all the other countries, not consolidate. >> Isn't that nice? >> No, but they were consolidating power, not resources. They were dispersing resources. >> Fair. Cryptocurrency is a CIA op. >> Didn't know that was an option. >> I didn't even put my stuff down here. >> I'm sorry. I'm I'm con I'm confident. I'm going to be real anyways because this is what I was going to put down even though I wouldn't screw with you. >> Three nos. No. All right. We don't buy it. We don't buy it. Internet. All right. Here we go. Russ, you're next. >> All right. Uh, the Clinton body count number is just a clever meme and not an obvious truth statistically. >> There's so much in there that could go one way or the other. Can you say one more time? >> When you talk about body count, are we talking about females he's been with? >> No, we're talking about dead people. death count. >> Do Do I think that the Clinton body count uh on death dead people around the Clintons is true or just a meme? >> Okay, go ahead. Oh, is it just a meme? >> Bang. Give me a point here. Let's go. >> I was I was born in Little Rock. >> So, he thinks yes. Right. So, for those of you not, >> that's right. He helped Barry some >> along with Gar Brooks. All right. Uh, >> deep cut there. All right, Zach, you're up. >> I have six points. What does everybody else have? >> World Economic Forum is promoting 15minute cities to control us. >> 15minute cities. I even heard of that. Got no no and a yes. >> Dang. >> Now I'm tied with Kyle. >> Are you guessing what I would guess or what you >> I have to guess what you would guess, but I guess what you're actually what you're doing. >> Yes. >> Interesting. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> He does not know you. >> Well, so you do figure out, you know, what you know about people and what you don't. All right, here we go. Is that the host? Host. All right. Bang. Next one. Dinosaurs as we know them are fake. Nope. They're not fake. Get out of here, Ken. Ham or whoever is saying that dinosaurs are only put >> Ham didn't say they were fake >> in the earth to test our faith or whatever that dude dude said. All right, you're next. >> Milk isn't good for you. They don't know that I'm lactose in. >> Well, you got to put your answer now. >> So, if we say yes, we're saying that you don't think milk is good for you. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Dang it. >> Mother's milk. >> Yeah. We were going to have problems. Hey, we have to we have to like say what the results are because people can't see on the table by the way. >> That's right. >> So, I put yes to that one and everybody else put no. Okay. >> Okay. >> All right. You're next up. >> All right. The government likely poisoned alcohol during prohibition to keep people from drinking. >> Oh, >> yes. >> Yes. Okay. They wouldn't have to. >> Yeah. All right, Zach said no. >> What do you got? I got seven. >> All right, he's got eight. Closing in on the win. >> I need two more. >> I think we think the government's capable of a lot more than it is. All those distilleries in the backwoods controlled by my I mean somebody's families >> by your family. >> Yeah, but there's a lot of things that they've done like somewhere something. You don't think that they ever put anything? >> In small doses, but not in a large scale. I don't think they need to. >> Yeah, >> true. Dinosaurs were wiped out by an asteroid. What is that gonna say? Wasn't it the flood? >> All right, Zach, do you have your answer? >> No. This is a hard one. >> Oh, young earther or old earther over here? >> Oh, wait. Three S's. Yes. >> All right. Bang. Everybody gets one. All right. Ryan is one away. >> We're one away victory. This would be This would be better if there was drinking involved. Just gonna be honest. >> All right, we got to make it a good one. >> Someone go get a scotch. >> Oh, dumb. That was dumb. I'm going to skip. >> Nah, it's got to get a good one. >> I didn't know that was an option. >> Yeah, well, you know. All right. Rockefeller created modern medicine to eradicate natural remedies and make everyone dependent on big pharma. Rockefeller created modern medicine to eradicate natural remedies and make everyone dependent on big form. >> Which one? Nelson or John? >> Yes, a no and a no. I say no. Brian Horn is the winner. >> I win. >> You sound so excited about the fact that you won. >> I picked yes because I figured once you read >> get you in trouble if I want to give you like reasoning. Well, it was sort of fun. Like, it could have been a lot more fun. It was uh I guess my excitement and buildup was not nearly as uh good as the followrough. So, sorry about that. But I guess it would make a whole lot more sense if uh if you did have alcohol in your hands. I thought the conspiracy pack was going to be a lot more exciting. >> The fact that you have to have alcohol to play this game should tell you something. >> Well, I mean, there's got to be a good one. There's a portal to other worlds beyond the ice ring in Antarctica. >> Only when you're talking about Calvinism >> with the right people. >> Yeah. Jeffrey Epste didn't kill himself. >> Okay, that would have been good. >> Michelle Obama is a man. >> We need a couple more. >> I told you. I told you Candace Owens wrote this deck. >> All right. Yeah. No, that's Breijit Mcron is uh the one she's not really talking to. >> Did you guys watch the History Channel thing where Carnegie Carnegie sent Rockefeller a bottle of whiskey? >> No. >> He was a devout Protestant who didn't drink. M >> and so in return Rockefeller sent him a paper shirt to signify that he grew up poor. >> Uh but in context of that card, devout Protestant, I don't think he's poisoning anything or >> Yeah. >> Well, there's no great way to transition out of this because that was supposed to be a whole lot more fun. >> Honestly, can you get the a >> Did we already lose lose the A? I mean, I guess I could have got one of the other games. >> 18 minutes >> we played cast the first stone. I will say that discernment is was a lot funnier, right? Speaking of that game being a little weak, while we were still weak, uh, some stuff happened. >> Oh, yes. >> Well, Russell, how about you go and tell us about that? Go ahead and read verses uh 6 and 7 of Romans 5 as I apologize profusely to the audience for wasting time on that game. >> We'll do. For while we were still weak, at the right time, Christ died for the ungodly. For one will will sacrif will sacrificially die for a righteous person. I'm sorry. scarcely die for a righteous person, though perhaps for a good person, one would dare even to die. But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. >> All right, a little bit of extra credit there. He read an extra one. There's supposed to be some build up to verse eight, but apparently >> scarcely and then I got ahead of myself. >> I want to apologize to Joby on behalf of Russell. So, sorry coin into there. Kabang. That wasn't a uh a uh Hebrew word or anything that I messed up. It was just an English word regular word. Just skipped right over. >> I read the first two letters and just went on with my mind. So >> there we go. >> Hey, can we get a joke for >> This is going for while we were still weak. >> This is going good, guys. >> Guys, here I am like pep talking before and it's the guys. It's the fourth one. Energy, energy, energy. And it's just been an absolute train wreck so far. But guess what? >> There's a >> We can save it. >> Let's do it. >> All right. We can save it. >> So, we were still weak >> at the right time. Christ died for the ungodly. So, we were still weak. We were dead in our sin. It goes back to Mr. Grassmmer always talking about us being too dead to see the beauty of the gospel and our eyes having to be open to it. Um, Sproul kind of brought that back as well. He says, um, which have to move to my back page because this thing was so filled with notes. uh Christ's death was uh valuable for all but only affects those who believe >> when the for while we were still weak. Another translation is helpless. >> So cuz weak implies that there's still some strength there. But that's why I think helpless is maybe a little bit better. I forget what I think that was NASBY was helpless. Uh because again weak just implies that there is still something that that we can do. Um which is not exactly the idea that is being portrayed here apparently. But the other thing to look at too is we have to go back to original sin. And through original sin, we don't have spiritual strength anymore. So after the fall uh in the garden, we we have a spiritual death. So when we die spiritually, we don't have the strength to actually be spiritual. So God has to bring that out of us. one thing that so I don't know how this was for you guys but I remember as a kid I don't know how because this would have been before I I went to church at all but as a kid cuz I think my my mom started dragging my sister and I to church when we were in like sixth grade or something like that but before then I remember at least colloquially knowing the story of Jesus like oh this guy died for people and I just remember being very very confused by that cuz I'm like well don't like soldiers die for people? Like, don't police officers die for people? Don't like firefighters risk their lives so that other people might live? Coast Guard. Like, I I just I remember not getting it. Like, what what was such a big deal about this Jesus fella like dying for for somebody else? And how how did he die for me? Like, I wasn't in trouble. Like, I remember that being being like an issue for me as a kid. So, I don't know about y'all like kind of growing up around this your whole life or whatever. I think kind of looking at that is just like even even as a as a grown man it's like why did he die for me? Like what trans what trespasses do do I do? And so when you read about this it's like even in our ungodliness and even through our sin like a just god came down and died for us. Like it if we go further in there it's like would they even die for would somebody even die for somebody that that did something good you know? So like now we have to think of a just God who knows what what righteousness is but still want to come down and die for us. It's kind of an amazing thing to look at in that atonement. >> I think I actually saw a depiction of the death of Christ before um I fully understood everything. And so like growing up having already seen that it became just very much kind of ingrained in me that like the love that he has for me and for mankind was was that like he was willing to be put through that. So I never really had the rub that you were talking about just because it was always >> always a part of my upbringing that I knew exactly how he died. I knew the uh horrific nature of the death and then I slowly gradually learned into um the belief and the understanding that that was that was to bestow this grace upon me. So, not really a rub. >> You know, I think as as well here since uh we already got into to verse 8, it's like okay I remember sharing the gospel with a buddy of mine from Japan in college and he basically said, "Yeah, you know, I'm going to get my life cleaned up first and then then I'll like kind of think about this Christianity thing." And what I was trying to give him, even though I didn't have the words or the scriptural reference at the time, I was trying to give him Romans 5'8, which is, you know, God, you know, showed his love for us, that while you were still bad, while you were still gross, while you're still, you know, depraved, Christ died for you specifically. Um, and again, didn't really have the language to explain that to him. But that is the thing that's very important. A lot of people think, oh, I got to get cleaned up first. Mhm. >> And I'm not I'm not getting into an argument of like, hey, come as you are and all that, even though there are people that put they kind of put their faith in how well they dress on Sundays, which I think is pretty problematic, >> obviously. But I I think that this is such an impactful thing for the people that that think, "Oh, I'm I'm too bad. I have too much road to hoe before I can get to where I could even present myself." Like, what was it last week? We were talking about how you had to be cleaned up and, you know, presented to the king in a certain way before you would be able to have access, right? that goes back to the beginning of chapter 5. But I mean, that's just a sobering thing uh to think of it that way. >> But how much like of our own legalism do we put on people for that? Like cuz a couple of weeks back we talked about the only fans girl or Russell Brand that we put like you have to be this somewhat type of person to be able to able to walk into a church or even into God's presence. like like I I Christ intercedes for us through God in in our righteousness, but like to come to him. He's not asking us to come clean to him. He's asking us to come to him. He died for us in our dirtiness that we were in. And like I think we as church people can sometimes forget that and expect like, you know, for you to come into a church, you have to be this wholesome person. But like sometimes you got to take in the bad and help sanctify it. >> Yeah. Nobody is really that wholesome. But that's one thing I I think about recently is, you know, obviously God created this place and it was good. And Adam and Eve walked around and I think a totally different physical situation and circumstance than we walk around in now. And that's that's the way that we were designed, you know, to to be with God. Then the fall happens and all we experience is what is around us. Kind of like the fish and water. A lot of times they'll talk about the water being culture. the fish doesn't understand it. Well, for you, the culture that you live in is kind of like the water for a fish. It exerts influence on you whether you know it or not. >> And so everything, this is what it appears to be like. But CS Lewis talks about, you know, that that feeling of being built and made for something else that you can't quite put your words together on. So from God's perspective to come down and die for us when we can't do it ourselves, he's got that perspective about what we will be one day that we cannot possibly fathom. And the only way that we could get there was for him to come down and die himself. It's it's like when you try to put yourself in God's perspective, it, you know, it can help because the reason I thought about that is Kyle's comments. It didn't make sense to me. How is how is somebody 2,000 years ago dying on a cross relevant to me in any capacity at all whatsoever? >> Mhm. >> You know, what difference does that make? >> Well, so to the point that you were making about what uh CS Lewis was talking about, um hang on one sec. Let me make sure I have the right passage. >> While you're looking it up, one thing CS Lewis said too that kind of got my attention. And I've mentioned this before, but early on was the try to go five minutes without sinning and see how how in control you really are according to what the Bible says is sin. And then you start it starts to expose it, right? Then you start to think, oh well, I guess I do need help if I'm ever going to get to that point, you know? >> Yeah, I actually read this on a past daily blade, but Mere Christianity book three, chapter 10, I want to read this. The Christian says, "Creatures are not born with desires unless satisfaction for those desires exists. A baby feels hunger, well, there is such a thing as food. A duckling wants to swim, well, there is such a thing as water. Men feels sexual desire, well, there is such a thing as sex. If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world. If none of my earthly pleasures satisfy it, that does not prove that the universe is a fraud. probably earthly pleasures were never meant to satisfy it but only to arouse it to suggest the real thing. That is uh if that is so, I must take care on the one hand never to despise or be unthankful for these earthly blessings and on the other never to mistake them for the something else of which they are only a copy or an echo or a mirage. I must keep alive in myself the desire for my true country, which I shall not find until death. I must never let it get snowed under or turned aside. I must make it the main object of life to press on to that other country and to help others do the same. And so, uh, I mean, the point that I was making in the daily blade that I was talking about is if we are focused on the final destination, I think it's important like what Jesus said in in John 15:18 and 19, if the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own. And because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. And so I I think that that's that's an important thing that kind of describes that tension of that kind of that lowgrade tension we feel at all times in this world. It's because we're technically not in the environment we should be in. >> Who was that then? >> CS Lewis, Mere Christianity. >> You should let him know he should write some more stuff. He's pretty good. Like he's up young. Yeah, he uh I think he's got some potential. That's that Clive Staples Lewis here. But um I I think that that's that's really important to kind of think through cuz I don't know if you you guys have felt that way because so if we think of it like big loud tension, we might miss it, but there's a lowgrade tension. Uh I think of it this way. There's a UFC fighter, I can't remember his name, um who was talking to Joe Rogan about this when he was on Joe Rogan's show, and he said, uh gosh, he used to be the 135 pound champion. Sorry. Um it'll come to me, but anyway, he said he stopped using social media entirely. And Joe was like, really? He goes, "Yeah, cuz I realized as I was scrolling, I would always feel kind of this lowgrade anxiety the whole time." And then when you start to extrapolate out, well, what is that? It's like, man, I was I was looking at stuff and I just knew I should have been doing something else. So, there's low-grade anxiety about I am wasting my life away. Then you also have the low-grade anxiety of, man, well, that guy's in a lot better shape or this person's got a lot more money or look at that person's wife or look at that guy's car, something like that. So, you have this comparison trap, this envy that's coming up. And again, it doesn't have to be this big substantial thing like your next door neighbor gets the car you were about to buy and it was the only one in that color in town and oh, now you have this very acute envy. No, it's just this lowgrade envy that you have for somebody or for for really anything that you have. I think the same thing is true with this world. It's almost like there's a buzzing in the background like in the ether of your life which is just basically like this constant reminder you weren't made for this environment. You weren't made for this environment. >> And it it should be especially acute for the Christian to be like yeah you you should not conform completely to this world because this is not the world for which you were built. Right? >> You know what I mean? >> That's what the parable of the the seed being swed is telling us about. It's saying hey here are the traps. Some of you get trapped in this. Some of you get trapped in this. But but ultimately you need to understand there is a kingdom that you need to be paying attention to. I mean that's what Jesus came to say. He said repent for the kingdom of God is near. He was trying to waken people up to the idea that the kingdom was near. They need to focus on it rather than their own focus. I also saw so like this thing talking about the uh in that in that last verse somebody said that we get to be treated like Christ because Christ was treated with our sin. So like we get to be treated with the grace bestowed on Christ because Christ God bestowed our sin onto him. >> And that idea that like he not only died on the cross. I think that's one of the biggest things that matured in my faith was I realized that the death of Jesus on the cross may not have been his greatest suffering. the actual the weight of the sin of the world um compared to the actual crucifixion may have may have outweighed the actual crucifixion by a lot to actually feel for the first time um the the burden of that sin being placed on him uh had to had to be such a strange and uh I I I don't know if like we can say like could he have been prepared for what that even would feel like or or the separation. He had never been separated from God. Um to be able to feel that that weight just had to be something incredible that I think I've finally started to realize like that's that may be what I'm more repentant on than just the idea that man killed him was that there was a piece of that suffering that comes directly from me. >> Yeah. It's it's like he had all the physical suffering, but you hear the people describe hell as separation from God. And then if you you know listen to what you know, God is providing right now, the rain for the good and the bad and and the sunlight and the joy and everything that we viscerally experience inside and outside. It's interesting to think that God incarnate was disconnected from his own being in some capacity. Whether that means that sin is pouring on him or it's just the disconnectedness from his own being which is everything good for the first time. I I think it far outweighs the physical pain, but that was just an addition to, you know, and then you think about that and and um when we were going through um Constantino's book about what what he experienced and then you really try to meditate on I'm sinful. That should have been me on that cross with complete hopelessness, but he did it for me. And I think over time it makes an impression and becomes much more significant. At least it has for me. >> Well, yeah. And Eugenia Constantino's book uh the crucifixion of the king of glory really gets into stark detail about uh crucifixion about the nerve endings you know along the the hairline of the forehead and how when those acacia thorns and acacia thorns are you know 2 3 4 in thick and when that would be pushed down on the scalding amount of pain but I think I remember uh Josh Howerton pointing this out. So, if we go, what is this? Matthew, Matthew 27, we're getting into the death of Jesus. Starting at verse 45. Now, from the 6th hour, there was darkness over all the land until the 9th hour. And about the 9th hour, Jesus cried out with a loud voice saying "Eli Eli lama that is, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" He at this point has been beaten. He's been scourged. He's been whipped with a cat of ninetails. It is incredibly um possible that he because of how a cat of Ninetailes was designed that some of his internal organs were exposed to the outside air. Um you know the flesh was just being ripped from his back. He had already been placed on the cross you know with all the thorns he had had you know and don't think nails like you know Home Depot. Think like what you would nail into a railroad tie. He had had those put through one of the most excruciating places in the Palm >> uh the Palm area. you know, he had had something, you know, nails driven through his feet. He had been put up there. He had basically already at this point been drowning in his own blood, right? >> Was a lung fluid. >> We have no record from any of the four synoptic or any of the three synoptic gospels or the book of John that he cried out in pain. >> Yeah. >> Says the first time he cried out was after he was separated from the father. >> Yep. >> For the first time in his entire nature, right? And I'm not even going to say his life, but the first time in his entire I guess being he was separated from his father and that's what caused him to cry out in a loud voice. >> That's >> and so I I think it's hard u you know I think it's appropriate when you have like the passion of the Christ or when you have different depictions of the crucifixion. You have to show the physicality of it. But the physical brutality that came upon him was not nearly as brutal as the separation from his father when he became sin on our behalf. >> So he becomes sin on our behalf. He dies for the ungodly. But if you think about it, when everything went dark and the earth shook, right? >> And Sproul even said it's like God took the earth and he shook it. And when he shook it, the veil was torn. And because of his death and his atonement for our sins, he took on the sin, the original sin of Adam and ourselves. And he created a way for us to intercede with God. And that veil that and if we look at this veil, if we look at the veil and you look at the Holies of Holies, which is what this veil covered, when a priest would go through the the the um rituals to be able to go in there, >> they that one priest could do it and once a year and they could go in there and they used to tie a bell to these guys because if they were to drop dead in there, nobody could go in and fish their body out. or they would tie like a rope to they tie a rope with a bell. So if he were to have a heart attack or something or die, they would hear the bell and they would be able to pull him out because they could not go in there. So when this whole thing goes down and the earth shakes and that bail tears and we're talking about a very thick curtain and it tears from the top to the bottom and it and because of his sacrifice now we are able to convene with or you know converse with God on on his behalf. And so like when and and I wrote this down. And it was like when and and you set up a perfect picture of it, but it said um Christ died for the ungodly. He didn't die just to display God's love or a moral influence. He did it for us. He did it for the ungodly. He did it for sinfulness. He did it for the the people who who can't who weren't, how do you want to say it? They we're blotchy and blemished like we all are, you know, like we can act like we're we're these good people, but we're not. We can act like the Pharisees and pretend that we walk this walk and we talk this talk, but in the end, we're just blotchy and blemished. And because of him, he was the sacrificial lamb that wasn't blotchy and he died for us. He went through that excruciating death. And I I wanted to read this by scroll since I had it pulled up. It says, "The overwhelming report in America today among professional evangelicals is that God offers the gospel to everybody. And that those who exercise their will to receive Jesus, to make a decision for Christ, are the ones who are saved. Although God does 99%, the 1% that decides our fate for eternity rests in our cooperating and choosing Jesus freely. The minute I'm persuaded of all that will be the minute I climb down from the pulpit because I would have no hope whatsoever that the work of evangelism would be successful or that preaching would bring any fruit. It would be like a preacher preaching the resurrection with great eloquence, power, and rhetorical skill in the middle of a cemetery calling the corpses to come to life. They are not going to come. Unless the Holy Spirit empowers the word of preaching and outreach of evangelism, no one will come to Christ. That is the point that Jesus made when he said, "No one came to me unless the father who sent me draws him." John 6:44. Paul is teaching this same principle. He is saying that Christ died for the ungodly while we were still without strength. The strength that Paul has in in view is clearly the spiritual strength. We have no strength in and ourselves to the effect of our salvation. And so you think about that and you think how you just eloquently put how Christ died and I saw the passion of the Christ and I, you know, and I witnessed it with my eyes and even through the emotionalism and everything like that, I still never could fully grasp the gospel >> until God opened my eyes. Like I could see it. I saw it with my own eyes. I cried after, but I couldn't tell you why I was crying because I didn't understand. I was dead. I was dead. and in my sight. I wasn't able to see it until God opened my eyes and created life in me. >> And how many people witnessed the crucifixion live? >> Maybe saw the resurrected Jesus. >> At least 500, >> right? And still didn't put their faith in him because it says that 500 saw him. Didn't say 500 became his disciples and followed him. >> What are you going to say? >> Oh, I was just uh I listened to your interview with um the creator of the chosen. What's his name? >> Dallas Jenkins. >> Dallas Jenkins. and you asked them how they're going to portray it >> and he and he made the comment that they're it's going to be brutal and all that but not quite to the spectacle level of the passion of the Christ >> but you've got the benefit of all the relationships that they've built up to that point which I think will probably be a more maybe even a more intimate version of the crucifixion than what the passion did because there wasn't really any sort of background. >> Yeah. So when you hear people talk about character development, so when you're looking at a two two and a half hour long movie, there's only so much you can do to get the audience invested in a character. >> Yeah. >> That's why that's why whenever movies move you when a character is killed or dies, it is like a masterful thing. So I was thinking about this yesterday because we were talking about it. The fact that an adult can cry when a cartoon lion named Mufasa dies early in a movie. The amount That's why this was before Disney lost their minds. That's why Lion King is a masterpiece. It's not just because of the Han Zimmer soundtrack. It's not just because of all that. It's because the character of Mufasa was so developed in such a short period of time that when he was killed, you felt like Simba, right? regardless of who your dad was or whether or not you had one or whether you grew up with them or relationship or whatever. But that's why typically, you know, episodic series-based, you know, television series can do a lot better job because you're seeing these characters. And so that was part of the issue. Not only is that going to come through on the screen, but it's going to come through for the actors and actresses because what Dallas said in my interview is the first day on set because they filmed uh Jesus being dragged through the city first. That was the first thing they filmed for season six. And so Jonathan Roomie walks on set post beating, right? Post vlogging. And the actors and actresses that worked with Jonathan Roomie, not Jesus, were overwhelmed with emotion. D said he had to walk off set just by seeing Jonathan Roomie in the makeup for the first time. >> And so now you think about how they're going to portray that in season six with the theatrical release and different things like that. But I think it does ultimately go back to Ryan's point. For the non-believer, it will be poignant. It will be beautiful storytelling. It'll be narrative direction. It'll be all those things, but it won't be salvific because in until you are given the eyes to see, that is just another story of sacrifice that you've seen. It's just Lion King. It's just saving Private Ryan. It's just something like that. It's just set 2,000 years ago in the Middle East, right? And so I think that that's a a very interesting point that understanding the brutality physically of a crucifixion is important, but if you miss the separation of Jesus from the father because of sin, you basically miss the entirety of of the crucifixion narrative. Yeah. >> Well, it's also it's also the true myth, you know, that Lewis described that Tolken had to talk to him about in the long walk when he was converted. The difference between this and what you would find with Mufasa is that it's an actual person that lived 2,000 years ago that can be substantiated. Then you have to grapple with why would this person do this? Why did he live this way? And why do we count time by him? And why do three billion people worship him? So hopefully it's got a little bit more impact. But I I hear what you're saying, >> but I think like God has to open your eyes to the beauty of it because like if we if we look at it like you we talked about Mufasa, but like let's take it a step further. Let's look at Braveheart, you know, William Wallace dying at the end and being like >> gutted, you know, like that did that bring a tear to your eye? Absolutely. Was he a real person? Absolutely. Did it happen a thousand years ago? Yeah. You know, but when it comes to Christ and then you God opening your eyes to the beauty of this Yeah. >> of his plan like it's a it's a whole different level. >> But he didn't claim to be God and he didn't claim to die for you. >> William Wallace, >> right? >> I agree. So, >> well, and that's that's getting back in that even goes back into the mere Christianity stuff from CS Lewis. That's his very famous trilmma. Liar, lunatic, or lord. We don't have another category for who he could be. Because if you say he was a great moral teacher, it's like no, he actually takes that away from you because he made truth claims about his own divinity. And so, if he did that knowingly, knowing that it was false, he's a liar. If he did it unknowingly, he actually fervently believes it, but it's not true. That means he's insane or he means what he's saying. And so that's the thing is when you find people, Muslims or dorks on the internet that are basically talking about how Jesus never claimed to be God. It's like when he said, "I and the father are one." What does that mean? Why did they why did they pick up stones to kill him? All the religious scribes and people that knew the Old Testament except for Isaiah 53. Why did they pick up the stones to try and stone him in that moment? Because blasphemy was a capital offense punishable by death and they were going to carry out the punishment in that exact moment. So I was like, what are you even talking about? >> There's something so like talking about the beauty of this moment. Um, if I'm not gonna do this justice, so let me just put this out there. Uh, look up Terry Fakes Monday Thursday service and there's so much there. Uh, I'm so grateful for in particular that particular service um, in and of itself has revealed so much of the depth of scripture. Not just what that script, not what that service is about, but just the overall beauty and idea that this was not just this event just happened by itself. This event was led up to there. Everything points to this. There's connections throughout the word of God. And that's the beauty of having a Bible study like this is to find those connections to to be at a church that has a teaching pastor that can pull this stuff out to you. But anyways, I just want to read this. So, like talk about the beauty of this and you had just read what Jesus said on the cross. This is from Psalms 22. And I'm just going to hit a couple of the verses in Psalms 22, but just listen to the foreshadowing of what Psalms 22 is. And this is what Jesus is basically quoting on the cross. It's not just his own words, but as Terry puts it, this would have been a song that you knew. And just like whenever you quote quote the first line of a song, the rest of it just comes back to you to where all of a sudden you realize, hold on, that line is applicable to this too and that line and that line and that line and it just flows back to you. So, uh, verse one, it says, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me from the words of my groaning?" And down in seven says, "All who see all who see me mock me. They make mouths at me. They wag their heads. He trusts in the Lord. Let him deliver himself. Let him rescue himself, for he delights in him. 14 I am poured out like water and all my bones are out of joint. My heart is like wax. It's melted within my breast. My strength is dried up like uh potshurd. I don't know what that is. My tongue sticks to my jaws, but lay uh but you lay me in the dust of death. For dogs encompass me. A company of evildoers encircle me. They have pierced my hands and feet. I count all my bones. They stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them. And for my clothing they cast lots. This is in Psalms 22. Like like there's so much stuff there. Like if you're reading the Bible and you're looking for the connections and you're and you're um discussing it, there's so much there that you would just miss and and miss the beauty of what really God was painting in this whole picture. >> That's right. Well, guys, uh let's keep this section going. Uh let's add verses 9 through 11 on top of our discussion. So, Zach, if you'll go and read 9-11. Since therefore we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his son, much more now that we are reconciled shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ through whom we have now received reconciliation. Reconciled. Reconciled. Reconciliation. Okay. So, there's something very important about reconciliation that Joey actually taught me. Um, there was a pastor back in the day who will remain nameless. Um, >> why do we got to leave him nameless? >> Man, I can't even Do you remember how the story started? Leave his name out, but how did the story start? >> So, he wrote something ridiculous about gun control. >> Okay. Right. And then, so I I responded to his comment. >> He just made a comment on his thing. >> Yeah. Responded to with a with a comment on it. This this pastor who was a working lead pastor at the time sent me an incredibly vile, threat laden, violent DM. >> It was there was cuss words in it, too. >> Basically talking about >> this wasn't a local pastor. This was >> No, he was I can't remember where he was. It wouldn't give it away if I said he Anyway, >> he's out of LA. >> Yeah. And so this guy um basically was threatening to to like hurt me, to beat me up. Hey, you don't understand. I'm part of the underworld. I'm like all this kind of stuff. And the thing is for me like I don't play those games. So if you send me a death threat or if you send me something like that, I screenshot it and I I post it and I tag you, right? And so it's just like whether you're just now if you're obviously a bot, which I get bot threats all the time, but if you're like a real person with a real profile, it's like, bro, like there there's no assumption of privacy here. What's wrong with you? And so I posted that and um so immediately it kind of it kind kind of went mini viral in his circle. Uh his church was made aware of it. His um his network was kind of made aware of it. Elders were made aware of it. And so he started sending me desperate DMs saying, "Hey, you know, let's talk. Let's whatever. Like let's reconcile. Let's you know, people are messaging my church. They're messaging my wife. They're threatening blah blah blah." He was claiming that my followers were like threatening him and threatening. None of this is true by the way, right? He he provided no evidence for that. Not a single screenshot. This was not happening. This was a figment of his imagination. And the thing was is he was demanding that I reconcile with him. I you cannot deny me as your Christian brother. Reconciliation. You cannot do it. And so I was like, this is really strange. This is getting into a really strange place. And so I sent the the stuff to Joby and I told him kind of what what went down. This is what Joby taught me. He's he's like, "Kyle, you cannot be reconciled to someone you were never reconciled with to begin with, right? You are both members of the body, but you are not in a reconciled relationship with one another. So, you cannot reconcile something that has never been consciled to begin with." He's and he's like, "Kyle, you don't owe him anything, right? Uh like you are not to make this situation worse. I don't think that that would be a very positive thing, but this is the bed that he made and he's got a lie in it and you can't save him from it." And so the reason why I bring that up is because I had never really thought about reconciliation before through those terms as like okay categorically there are people that you were reconciled to and then not reconciled to. But here the entire theme that ends this section here of Paul's letter is that we were you know that while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of Jesus. And now much more that we are reconciled which is a current and ongoing reality. That's I think the verb tense. I think that's a perfect tense which means it is currently true and it will always be true right which goes back to you know you know Jesus can't have one of his sheep taken from his hand >> and that through uh Jesus Christ that we now have received reconciliation >> so that shows that we had some sort of connection to the father from the beginning in that we are image bearsers right that is our connection but we have to be reconciled to the father through the sacrifice of Jesus because we don't have perfect righteousness yet. >> But don't doesn't that kind of come into an election to a point? >> I'm sure you think so, but go ahead, make your point. Yeah. >> But I'm just saying with like if you're going to be reconciled or reconciled, you have to at one point be reconciled with Christ and or with God. And God at one point chose from the beginning who he was going to save. I mean, if if we look at it and we look at what's going on here, I mean, it's it's a perfect playbook for limited atonement. And so if we're going to talk about a limited limited atonement, we have to talk about unconditional election. And so to be reconciled, we have to have been elected to be reconciled with. And so that's where I think that's where Sproul was talking about in his last thing that it's like you have to your eyes have to be open and God's going to open the ones that he's reconciled with. >> Yeah. So the point I'm making about uh being reconciled to begin with, it goes back to the earlier parts of this this letter to the church in Rome to where it says that the law is in there, >> right? The the law is written on our hearts. That's the natural law argument. There's two laws. There's the natural law and the moral law. So the moral law is the explicit declarations by God through scripture. Do this, don't do that, right? But then there's the natural law, what is written on our hearts, what we naturally feel deep down inside, even if we can't explain it. And so in that way what I'm saying so before we even get into a discussion about election or atonement whether it's limited or you know a complete across the board is just the fact that in that we are image bearsers. >> That's right. >> We are consciled to God because we bear his image. So we have the things that the animals don't. So Russ a couple of weeks ago you mentioned about the fish. The fish is not you know can't describe the cosmos or the stars. >> Animals don't even look up right. They don't look up and wonder, right, about their place in the universe. I've heard an argument before that I'm sensitive to which is that animals when they're being consumed by other animals, they don't even realize that they're dying because there's no concept of they they don't have a >> right. So there's not a this is happening to me because to them there is no me. They are dancing to their DNA, right? But for human beings, we have uh our eyes are open. We do have consciousness. And so we know innately that we are created by God and it has to be we have to be educated to where we don't believe that right it's like you know what Matt Grassmire talked about it's like you never find a far away long- lost you know tribe of civilization of atheists there's no such thing right like you have to be educated into atheism right so I think it's a it's a fantastic point but I think that's the entire thing here that talks about there is a consil like uh we are consciled to god in a certain way. But only when we are imputed with the righteousness of Christ do we become reconciled to our creator. >> He literally created us to be in communion with him. >> Correct. >> Mhm. >> So you got to be reconciled. >> That first connection too, you can you can just take that and mean like the the cons is mankind at the beginning of of creation. So like if you take this as all of mankind and and it it goes with the rest of the chapter here. We've talked about Abraham and the faith that it took and and that was a foreshadowing of what our faith would take to bring us to God in mankind as a whole. And then later on in these verses, he's going to bring up Adam who it says, you know, by by one we were all doomed. By one, we were all saved. And so it's like all of mankind was with God in Adam and then we we departed from that and we are now brought back. >> But that's a tough thing to think about. Is all mankind going to be reconciled? Like, is there anything in the Bible that says all mankind or only a remnant? >> No, I'm not saying that all mankind is reconciled. I'm saying that in the genre of the poetry of this is that mankind is brought back to God. Not that every single man is brought to God, but mankind was separated. Same thing he's talking about here with the one Adam and the one Jesus. Th those those are representatives of like this is what happened to mankind and this is what brought us back. >> Ryan, we took smelling salts at the beginning of this episode for you cuz you had something on your chest. So what is it? >> I think we just get down to limited atonement here. >> That's the end of chapter 5, brother. You ain't going to make it. Look at the timer. >> Did you honestly think we were going to get to the end of chapter 5? >> That's not the end of chapter 5. >> What are you talking about? The last like 18 through 20 21 is straight up limited atonement. >> It starts off in uh it starts off in chapter or it starts off in verse six. Man, >> let him go. >> Let him say something. You got two minutes. >> I got two minutes. Oh man, you guys >> take it care take care of us for the rest of time. >> I'm not going to go in. >> Just give us a good >> If you say it starts in six, we've already passed it. So go for it, chief. >> Oh man. Come on. Dead Air. My favorite. >> I know because you guys just threw me on the spot with two minutes left. >> You threw yourself on the spot with your like prep speech before we even started recording this one. >> I have this in here u from like five. >> Well, I would say you could wait until the next batch. >> Yeah, I'm not going to be on the next batch. >> You're on for sobatical. >> No, I am on force soatical >> and not because of what we're going over. That's just the way the cookie crumbled. >> So for why we were recon we were enemies and reconciled to God by the death of his son much more. So we we would go into unconditional election. And so if we go into unconditional election, we're basically saying that >> which part are you talking about? >> I'm talking about verses 10. >> Okay. >> Uh well 8 through 11 basically. But Christ's death was valuable for all but only effects of those who believe. So >> so when we talk about that, you know, when we talk about limited atonement, we come down to that God's the God's death was sufficient for all but only efficient for some. And so when we look at this and we look at unconditional election, we we and that's what Sproul was going over in six while we were still weak. So now God's opened his eyes to those who who he's elected. And so um and so since elections built on there, then we have to go into limited atonement that Christ only died for those that God elected, which came down to James or excuse me, John 6 verse 35. Jesus said to them, I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me shall not hunger and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the father gives me will come to me and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. Do do you need li limited atonement is needed because of the concept that if it was for everyone and it was um >> universal un well not universal but if it if there was no react reaction or submission needed by the person if he died for everyone it would have to be that his purpose was to it be planned for everyone. So limited atonement is like, so you brought up mankind >> that God, Christ's death is sufficient to save all mankind, but if you look in the Bible, only a remnant is going to be saved. All of mankind is not going to be saved, >> right? But I'm saying it doesn't matter. Like it it doesn't matter whether or not it was for all mankind or just for the ones that would believe unless you believe in what's the other >> unconditional election. >> Unconditional election. and that like those elect are are the ones and if he died and it applies to more they would have been elect. >> Yeah. Basically when you when you look at it through here excuse me if you go back to if we go back to five and then we talk about um chapter or verse 6 for while we were still weak at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. So basically it's talking about that God God has chosen >> whose eyes he's going to open. So then you go into unconditional election from there. And then he goes into being justified by the blood. And so when you're being justified by the blood that he's talking about atonement, but atonement's limited to those who believe in Christ. And so who are those that believe in Christ? The ones who eyes were open, which in consideration would be elected. >> So of all of all the things because we do have to wrap up. of all the things from Tulip, um, the more I hear from both sides of this argument, because like I said, I've literally I've I've sat in on hours worth of this debate and I've listened to hours worth of this debate. That's the one. Limited Atonement is the one where I feel like both sides are just saying basically similar things, but just doing this, just passing right by each other. Okay? And so people will literally shake their head yes and be like, >> "No." Right? That's that's how this one feels >> because it's like okay did like did Christ sacrifice count for humanity? Yes, but only the elect. Wait, that's not all of humanity. >> That's that's where it comes down to sufficient for all. Like his death is sufficient for all but only efficient for the elect. It goes back to Job's Chick-fil-A, >> right? And he's even described where his analogy completely falls apart because Jake Winkler asked, "Well, wait, are you picking up the tab before anyone even picks up a sandwich or is it after?" And then there's active passive agent there as well. >> His argument doesn't fall apart. >> He said it does. So you're you'd be disagreeing with him. >> I don't feel I when I listen to it, >> he said every like, you know, every analogy basically falls apart at some point, but he explained where his falls apart and it was, you know, after I asked him the question from Jake Winkler, which is basically with limited atonement on the Chick-fil-A example, who when is the tab picked up? Is it after all the sandwiches have been uh taken or is it beforehand? But that's where it goes back to the mystery that we talked about because he's basically saying now I have to put myself into God's place before the beginning of time >> if you see what I'm saying there >> in terms of like his omnipotence and omnipresence and living outside of time >> because like Joy's trying to put it into terms that you understand from a worldly view but now that Jake takes it to the next level how well this happened before you know well it's like all right now I got to go put myself into an omnipotence into an alln knowledge of God to kind of explain this and And and like I said, I always think that there's a mystery here, but like it really gets into limited atonement when you get in from six all the way into the end. >> Well, you waited until way too late in this episode to kind of get >> everybody talk and so >> Well, I mean that and that is the nature of uh men's Bible study, which again, >> it's always fun. Part of the thing about it is, and we talked about this off air, is when we get together like this, >> for the most part, yeah, we're doing some theatrical stuff and like, you know, we're, you know, we're bringing up stuff that people heard in the past or whatever, but this is how a group should run. All right? Not necessarily playing really not as fun board games as you thought they would be, card games. So, sorry. Uh, that could have gone a whole lot better, but we're going to leave it in there. >> Um, but I think it is important for all of us, we're working these things out. This is not a performance, right? This is not a I came with my notes. I've got point counterpoint. We're going to have a debate where this side of the table takes one position, the other side takes theirs. We're going to do our introductory statements and then we're going to go back and forth. No, no. Like we are some things we are we think we know and then we change our position as we go. That's something that you were talking about a little bit earlier. And then there are also times for all of us that we're we're building on the knowledge that we had coming into here. But the entire point, and we'll wrap with this. The entire point is when you have a men's Bible study, okay? And ladies out there, to my 5enters, love y'all. Appreciate it. But I'm talking specifically about the men, this type of interaction only happens when you come prepared. Okay? >> So, a lot of people, we've talked a lot about the last three, four weeks on active and passive agents. There are too many men that are showing up to Bible study as a passive agent, right? They are showing up and they're opening their ears and eyes and they're just assuming all this wisdom is just going to kind of flow in and v osmosis somehow it's just going to connect with their brain and stay there. But they've done no level of preparation. They have not reckoned with the word of God at all. They have not spent any time in prayerful consideration in study or even consumption. And then they just show up to hang out. They show up to have a cigar and a whiskey. They show up just because it's the thing that they do at 6:30 on Thursday mornings or whatever. But if you don't come prepared, how can you come expectant? And that's the thing that I think, you know, people kind of get uh twisted into pretzels with with worship and they're like, "We're going to welcome the spirit of God here." It's like, it doesn't need your invitation, first of all. But if you come without any expectancy, what exactly are you thinking is going to happen? And so come and make sure that you're ready to go when you're coming to the table. And we're going to go and wrap it there. And we're going to do a quick resilience boost before we go. Go ahead, Ryan. You're just chomping at the saying like it just makes me >> he was kicking me under the table like please let me say it. Let me say it. >> Yeah. It's just funny like you talk about coming prepared and you talk about like we're just looking at five uh chapter chapter 5 and just what we talked about. I still have a whole section of love that we didn't even get to discuss. Like there's so much more stuff to draw out of Romans than we get in this 65 minutes that we just had. >> Yeah. If you think we're going slow, Piper was, I think, in Romans 18 by uh this point. So, it took him about 7 years, 8 years to get through Romans. >> I think my points on God's love would have been way better than that game we played for 15. >> You know what? We all make mistakes, Ryan. All right. There are sins and there are mistakes. This was a mistake. Okay. Burn. I thought buying the Conspiracy expansion pack would have made it even more exciting. I failed. >> You can take comfort that it was predestined that we not talk about. But I will also say, I mean, I've I've hit home runs on all the games previous to this. Like we we've we've had some really fun games and different things. This one, this wasn't even a bunt. >> Next time I'm on, I got a fun game. It's called uh funny things of the Bible. Make the Bible funny >> or the Bible is funny. I'll bring it with me. It's hilarious. Kids love it. >> Well, guys, appreciate all of you all your preparation leading up to this table. But we are going to leave it there, but come back here next week where we're going to start our discussion in Romans 5:12. Romans 5:12. Before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost at end to life. Our mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Log blog undon life study bundle. Make sure you check that out. The forging table starter set from crossway. Check both of those things out in the show notes. And donationbased ministry undanton.life/donate. Hop on board, be a donor. Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive fivestar review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@unson.life. That's in nfo@ undaunted.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www.undauntton.life. And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is their song Perpetual, which is off their self-titled debut album on Faceown Records. The links are in the description. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the Lion of Judah.