Hey guys, real quick. So, I've talked to men literally all across the globe about where they're missing the mark and how they want to improve. They normally talk about how they wish they were in better shape. They wish they had a better relationship with their loved ones. They wish they had more success and influence at work and some other stuff like that. But here are some of the most common and biggest things that I hear. I wish I knew more about the Bible. I wish I could lead my family spiritually. I wish I could recall more scripture. I wish Bible study wasn't such a struggle. Well guys, I've got news for you. You don't have to keep wishing. It's time for you to start doing. It's time for you to stop wasting your time and money on stuff that has no eternal value whatsoever. I keep hearing you talk about how you want to be more biblically literate and spiritually resilient. And now is your chance to prove that you mean it. That's why I want you to take advantage of our partnership with the most powerful Bible software on planet Earth, Logos. So, Logos approached me about putting something together for the Undaunted Lifers out there, and we collaborated to create something I'm super pumped about, the Undaunted Life Study Bundle. So, here's the skinny on the bundle. There are over 200 individual resources and they include titles from authors like Vodie Bacham, Charles Spurgeon, RC Sproul, John MacArthur, Matt Chandler, Dietrich Bonhaofer, William Lane, Craig, Paul Washer, John Sto, Doug Wilson, Paul David Trip, Jipacker, and a whole bunch more. And there are so many helpful resources in there. There's Bibles, commentaries, Old and New Testament study guides, devotionals, systematic theologies courses dictionaries histories encyclopedias non-fiction books, and more and more and more. And here's the most insane part about this deal. If you were to buy each individual resource by yourself inside of Logos, it would cost you over $3,000. $3,000. But if you get the Undaunted Life Study bundle, you'll get all 200 plus resources for just $349.99. Guys, that's $3,000 worth of stuff for 350 bucks, guys. That's almost 90% off. And you know that you waste more than that on the hobbies that you have right now all the time. And these won't help you with your disciplehip and sanctification journeys, right? It's time to get real and take control of your Bible study and spiritual development. Click the link in the show notes for this episode. If you want the link, it's logos.com/undaunted life. That's www.llog.com/undauntedlife or the link in the show notes. It's super easy to sign up. Again, go to the show notes and click the link or go to logos.comlife. Sign up for Logos and get the Undaunted Life study bundle right now. >> [music] [music] >> This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. Welcome back to the Forging Table. The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with the content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. At the forging table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience by digging into God's word. And we are welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with us. That's Winkler. That's Howard. That's Browning. And Winkler. You just can't help yourself, [laughter] right? We're trying. We're trying to move on. Everyone was mad that we talked baseball a couple weeks ago. Mad we talked baseball again in even more detail. I'm tempted to just say screw it. We'll just talk about baseball the whole time because here you are just pulling pins on grenades during the break time. Like [laughter] what are we doing here? But go ahead. Go ahead. Let's let's go. I mean, I just was curious just based on 512 through 14. I mean, obviously there's an implication here that we are paying for Adam's mistake that all of us are paying for Adam's mistake um all the way to present day. So, I'm actually just more curious, can you remember a time in your own life where you actually had to pay for someone else's mistake? That you were punished for someone else's mistake? I >> think all of us have, >> dude. Absolutely. Like every team sport I was on was like that. some dude would be showing up late. >> Exactly. >> Oh, yeah. >> Bleachers. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. >> I mean, >> so what point are you trying to make here? >> I'm just curious. I thought it was an interesting kind of deal. I mean, character reveal. >> I feel like you're re reverting back to Catholicism [laughter] all this. I feel like you're not You were improving. You were making such good progress and now here we are going backwards. >> I mean, I've got confession later, Kyle. I'm just going to have to go talk about >> Oh, you talked to a little guy in a box and [laughter] tell him all the things >> I have before. Which by the way, can we talk about how strange it is that if somebody like admits during confession, like isn't it in Catholic doctrine like if somebody admits to a crime or even an ongoing crime during confession that the priest cannot like report that and it can't be can't be used in all those those types of things. >> There's an exception, but overall basically it's it's >> what is the exception? I the exception would be like essentially murder and you know like the the the worst of the worst in terms of crimes like >> so back to the thing that you posed like obviously >> every one of us has paid for someone else's mistake paid for something that her brother did or something that someone else did like hey one kid doesn't turn in his homework and so the entire class has to like do an extra assignment like you know I think we've all been on the receiving end I I mean I was I was thinking back to a story like there was a in middle school, I actually had an incident where uh the concession stand at around the basketball gym was left unlocked overnight and a bunch of kids were able to get in there and started swiping candy and everything else they could. Well, somebody comes over to me. I don't know that it was unlocked at the time. I'm at I'm out, you know, shooting hoops or something. I don't know what we were doing, but somebody comes up and like, "Hey," one of my buddies comes up and goes, "Hey, you want a candy bar?" And I'm like, "Yeah, sure. That'd be great. Take your candy bar." Well, my seventh or eighth grade math teacher, Coach May, calls me and my buddy over and like, "Do you guys know anything about the concession stand?" And I was like, "No." He goes, "Well, there's been people who have been stealing candy bars out of there. do you guys know anything about it? And I said, "Well, yeah, I got a candy bar." [laughter] >> Probably could have worded that differently. >> I mean, I got a candy bar. And he goes, "All right, detention." And I was [clears throat] like, "What?" [laughter] I mean, what? Why? And he's like, "Well, because you stole that candy bar." I said, "I absolutely did not." Uh, meanwhile, my buddy who's standing there next to me who did steal the candy bar was very, very silent. >> Yeah. >> Uh, and how dare you. >> Yeah, I know. I dimed him out apparently. But he uh he and I ended up getting detention because he was like, "Do you have any candy bars?" He turned them all over. He had like seven. Uh turned them all over and then I ended up in detention for a month. >> And a month? Wow. >> Yes. Yeah. Month of detention and >> wicked depraved. >> But I will say this. I will say this. like uh told my dad about it and he told me he said you did the right thing but he said and I'm not going to bail you out. Like I'm not going to go talk to him. You're just going to serve it. >> That seems like a very harsh sentence for a candy. Well, what was the candy bar? It >> was a Reese's. >> All right, that makes sense actually. [laughter] All right. If you stole like a crunch or like a Almond Joy, his probably wouldn't have been >> I didn't have a choice. I mean, that's what I was offered and that's what I took. But I mean, >> did they tell you he stole it? >> No. >> Oh, >> he just asked. >> And he I mean, he he was one of those kids that had a he had a little scratch. And so I was just like I just assume that, hey, my buddy's giving me a candy bar. What a nice dude. [laughter] >> All right. Fair enough. >> So, back to the entire pin that you pulled on the grenade from the beginning. Do you feel satisfied in the answers from the table? Cuz I It was like you you thought we were going to say, "Well, no. I've never paid for someone else's problem." >> I mean, no. I figured everybody probably has. I was just interested to see if anybody had an interesting story. I like to know the people I'm around. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> I get to pay for the taxes every day for somebody else's >> Yeah. burn. Let's go ahead and go into that. Like we all work really really hard so other people can be lazy. That's uh basically the system that we're under. >> Uh but >> as someone who actually gets uh revenue from that side, I I think it's a very just and fair [laughter] course >> as you as you rep your company on your pullover. But I'm sorry. >> Yeah. So, let's uh let's go ahead and uh get into uh we're going to go ahead and do 15 and 16. So, I will take a volunteer for uh Romans 5:15 and 16. >> I'll do it. >> Mhm. >> But the free gift is not like the trespass for it many died through one man's trespass. Much more have the grace of God. And the free gift by the grace of that one man, Jesus Christ, abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. Anything that sticks out to y'all in those verses because there's one verse that sticks out or one one word actually that sticks out. >> Justification. >> That certainly does. I was thinking the end of 15 which is many. >> Uh the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. >> Um doesn't say all >> right. For if many died through one man's trespass much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. I get the whole many argument. However, I think the implication here is that if anything, Christ's work is at least as extensive as Adam's fault. It's not even at least it's significantly beyond that much more. Well, that's the same thing in 17 which we'll get there is is much is much more because it's >> we gain more in Christ than we ever lost in Adam, right? That's how Merida said it in his commentary. Okay. >> So, when you see much more in 15 and 16, it's like, you know, >> which which is obvious like you gain eternal everlasting life >> like with your creator. So you're there's nothing comparable to what you gain >> when you're imputed with the righteousness of God >> or the righteousness of Christ you through his sacrifice on the cross. >> Right. And Spurgeon says you are as righteous as Christ is righteous which is just mindblowing. >> Yeah. That stop and let that sink in for a minute. >> Say it again for the people in the back. >> Yeah. You are as righteous as Christ is righteous. >> So you want to talk about something that you didn't do anything to get right. You got punishment that you didn't do anything like to deserve, but then we get the exact same likeness with Christ who's part of the Godhead. >> Yep. >> That'll blow your mind for the rest of your life [laughter] >> in eternity for sure. >> So, I'm looking up the mini here in the lexicon. I'm using the Logos Bible software again, guys. Logos.com/undonedlife. you can get access to logos and you know 200 plus different uh resources normally would cost you 3,000 bucks 350 bucks it's well worth uh your time and money. So it's just basically the lexicon here is basically many is you know much great large freely um more majority plentiful >> and so great great multitude. >> Yes. >> Yeah. I I saw it much more and it had about five or six things. Righteousness, holiness reconciliation conversion adoption, abolished death, like much more, right? Like all of these things are the much more versus death. [laughter] >> Well, and um in McCarth Go ahead. >> No, I didn't have anything. Well, in MacArthur's commentary on 16, um, he said, "Adam brought condemnation from one sin of disobedience." >> Brought condemnation on the whole thing. Ruined the entire the entire deal. Christ delivers those from condemnation of many sins. And so from one sin, death to all of us came, but then Christ, he paid for the many sins. He paid for the multitude of sins. So [clears throat] I I would say I look at this and again I I'm reading this as if Paul is presenting things in parallel. Okay. One trespass led to condemn condemnation for all men. >> We agree. Sure. >> All right. One act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. >> For all who would accept >> for all that are in [laughter] all that are in him. >> But then the paral are in him not in him. >> But then the parallel breaks down. In what way? >> Well, because at that point it's not available to all. So just like condom we are all condemned that his sin. So this would this would actually probably be the limited atonement side of things. Um that essentially his act of righteousness was actually sufficient for all of the condemnation that Adam brought into the world. >> Correct. >> Sufficient for all. Efficient for >> many. Say that again. Sufficient for all. Efficient. Yes. [laughter] Sufficient for all. >> Sorry, my throat. You're good. Go ahead and say it. >> No, you say it. You say it. You >> sufficient for all, efficient for some. >> Yes. >> Efficiently applied is what I've heard. But I mean the to me the parallel suggests an equal scope. Okay. And this is not a universalist argument, but Adam's act affected all. Christ's act provides justific justification for all. It's sufficient for everyone. Um, Adam's consequence is inherited naturally. Christ's benefit is applied spiritually. So again, to me, there's just Paul is speaking in parallels this whole time. He's going giving you a contrast of here's where this road leads. Here's where the here's where the road of Adam leads. Here's where the road of Christ leads. And to me, uh, I think the text teaches it's pro, uh, it's teaching a universal provision, but not universal salvation. >> Does that make sense? >> Correct. Yeah. Because that would be universalism, which is regardless of what anybody does or accepts or doesn't do, >> do what you want. Do what you want. But, um, I I I don't know. to me to me again and maybe I I said earlier I have a tendency to stretch metaphors but to me whenever I look at when I look at the scripture here and you look at how Paul is writing things there is a parallel to what he's doing that essentially is it's applying it's it's opposite ends of the spectrum and essentially saying here's what one person did here's what the other person you know here's here's what Adam did here's what Christ did and Christ is essentially on the complete opposite spectrum of Adam but the parallel is there that Adam cannot enter the road on this side but because but again whenever you start saying no it's one act of righteous right righteousness leads to justification for some men when I look at that it's like well then the parallel breaks down that essentially there is no parallel at that point because now you're saying everyone's condemned and only some now are saved, which is essentially lessening the the work that Christ did on the cross. >> Yeah. I don't I don't I don't think about like that. I I mean I think about death having a very I mean a very strong influence obviously at the headarters of the river there was a poison put in. Everything downstream is poisoned, right? And then at some point then Christ comes in and has the super anecdote and it's and the grace and it I I guess we had either gotten to it or whatever but grace is going to abound much more than death. Like that's what I see as being much greater is the grace. The grace will never be overcome by death. You know it is it supersedes and overcomes death in in its entirety forever. Well, and we'll get there with 1819. And uh Browning, you're just referring to 20. Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. >> And you might be like, "Wait a minute. Limited atonement falls apart. It says all men. We're good." Got to keep reading. Uh for as by the one man's disobedience, the many, not all, the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience, the many, not all, will be made righteous. >> Now the law came in to increase the trespass. But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, increased all the more. So I'm not done. So that as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness, leading to an eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. I wonder if this goes back to a couple of weeks ago when we were talking about babies that die in utero, babies that die before um uh the age of accountability, uh somebody with some sort of mental disorder where they can never even perceive morality, so they couldn't make a choice to to be good or any of those types of things. And I think we're all fairly comfortable with a good God saving all of those souls and being being with him, you know, in eternity. >> And so that's where it kind of looks like, okay, one man's disobedience applied for many. Well, wait a minute. That didn't apply for everybody. I think that's where we start kind of getting into, okay, who would it have applied to that could not have made a made a choice, but even if born were were born into sin, but God made a justification for them. >> Yeah. I'm still saying, but again, right there, it's still speaking in parallels. >> He's still speaking in parallels here because he's saying the many and the many. So I I I'm not >> I think you're saying is that like it's all like that's that free will part, right? That any can come to him. >> I again I I would probably quibble with the idea of free will. Okay. It's it's the idea that there is a gift to be received, a response that is necessary. Did we get to 17? Can I I mean >> hit it now because I was about to. Verse 17 says, "Those who receive," >> go ahead and read the entire thing. >> Okay, let's Okay, so let's look at for if because of one man's trespass, death reign through that one man, much will much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. So whenever I look at that, I'm going those who receive to me implies that there is a response, a response that is required, >> right? So those who receive, that's a direct repudiation of universalism. >> Mhm. Yes. >> Okay. So we're on >> Yeah. Yeah. No, I I am not a universalist. [laughter] >> I didn't know how far you were going to slide back uh during during this time period. So [laughter] it's like >> I'll be going to Methodist church on Sunday, I guess. >> Are you [laughter] have you been We're going to put you under church discipline at this point. >> No. Um I I mean I I have this contrast chart that I came that through Adam and through Christ. So through Adam we have a trespass. Through Christ we have a free gift. >> Through Adam death reigned. Through Christ believers reign. >> Through Adam condemnation. Through Christ justification. >> So again I agree with all. >> Yeah. So again I I I'm very I got real focused on when I started reading through these verses. I got real focused on like that that Paul just seems to be drawing these parallel paths and and and >> and whenever I think of Adam and this idea that we're all condemned, we're all condemned and naturally born into sin, then they then to me the free gift of eternal life that Christ offers in our salvation is available to all. >> I like that. But is that >> available to and delivered to are not all the same thing? Correct. That's where so that's where Mark you know says he's tulip not tulip because he's like he does not see the scriptural justification >> for limited atonement. >> But of all the things in tulip and there are [clears throat] so many different things that break off from from all five of those different things theologically. That's the one where I feel like people are talking directly past one another where they're saying the same thing and then they're nodding and going I disagree. Right. So it's like they're they're [laughter] but where it seems like we're getting into semantics. >> Um you know and something like the the limited atonement piece because it's just like >> again it goes to it's to those who who receive those who receive that does imply that there is there is a choice or there is the acceptance of the free gift. Like there has to be the acceptance that's, you know, coupled with the repentance of the believer, >> right? I mean, when I passed that sack with a musual jersey over to you, >> I mean, you could have just let it sit on the table. >> Could have. >> Could have. >> Certainly. Yeah. >> So, I mean, that's I mean, I look that's the way I've always that's the way I kind of view this is essentially there is a there is a call and then there's a response. So, I mean uh in that way um and and look, I actually I believe that God knows the hearts of men. He knows who will respond. >> And I will not even say like, oh, you know, well then he's just guessing on who's going to get it. No, I think he knows everybody who's going to be in heaven. >> I do think he knows that. I mean, he wouldn't be much of a god if he didn't have the fornowledge to actually know who was going to be there. Um, but that's I I to me that when I I guess when I read scripture, when I read scripture and again I've I've told you guys like what how I see how I see a lot of the language that I would see around election predestination and things like that to me speaks a lot more towards the Jewish people than it does maybe to individuals. that Paul is talking to larger groups and is trying to convert these groups over to seeing that Christ is actually their savior. This is the Messiah. And that he is having to I mean he's using these scriptures, he's using Old Testament, he's using the Torah to actually bring them to Christ because he's saying, "Look, it's right here." But again, there's going to be Gentiles hear that and they're going to be like, "God, that means nothing to me." So when you see him using a lot of this election predestination talk, a lot of times it's typically surrounded by Old Testament scripture. >> Fair enough. Did we solve it now? >> I don't think we solved [laughter] it. >> No, we're still concerned about your backsliding and know we'll >> [laughter] >> uh we'll have to figure that one out. Well, let let's go and open up this section to go and bring in a discussion of 18 through uh 21. Um I read it earlier but Howard if you would go ahead and uh go ahead and read 18 through 21 and so we'll be discussing 15 through 21. >> Okay. So you should 18 through 21. Right. Okay. Therefore as one trespass led to the con led to condemnation for all men so one act of righteous righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by one by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners. So by the one man's obedience, the many will be made righteous. Now the law came in to increase the trespass. But where sin increased, grace abound all the more, so that as the sin, excuse me, so that as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness, leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. So 18 and 19 actually call back to verse 12. Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned, which gets us back into what we were talking about earlier with realism and federalism and, you know, identity theory and things like that. >> But the the thing that's striking to me um is in verse 19, like who is the active agent? There's an active agent and a passive agent. God's the active agent. We are the passive agent. And so that's the same thing with imputation. So when we're imputed with the righteousness of Christ, imputation is a one-way street, right? And and you know, it doesn't seem like there's an acceptance. It's just that's the way it is. Like you were imputed with this. >> Same is true for those that are in Adam, which is the delineating point that you know, we'll continue as we get into chapter 6, probably next week. But there's the the activation of imputation of the sin nature which is how we are all born into sin, born into iniquity. >> Anybody quibble with that in terms of active or passive? >> I do not. No, I don't quibble with it at all. [laughter] I just wanted to say that word quibble. It's a good one. It's a good one. >> I had on here um you know, I did ask myself a question. And do I believe grace is stronger than my worst sin? Um, I took a couple answers from a few guys. Um, Piper says, "God's design magnifies grace. Doesn't magnify sin." I even pulled from Joby Martin, "Your worst chapter doesn't outrun his mercy." I love that quote. >> Yep. >> Um, and just that idea that grace super abounds, it's it's greater than my worst choices and the my worst sins. uh it overflows those banks completely and covers them completely. >> I I'm I'm interested I'm interested uh the the in verse 20 here the law came in to increase the trespass. >> Mhm. >> So how do we reconcile that with the idea that all sin is a separation from God? that essentially there's a there's this idea that essentially sin all sin is equal in the eyes of God because all sin is separation in the eyes of God. >> Well, I just feel like >> so how does it increase the trespass? >> Yeah. I just you know there's there's like if I go out and drive 100 miles an hour and go out of control hit a tree and, you know, kill the person next to me. I mean that that's a natural consequence to me being stupid. Mhm. >> Um, [clears throat] but then if a policeman shows up and gives me a ticket, takes me off to jail because there's a there's a law on the books that say I shouldn't be speeding and that I just committed, you know, whatever, homicide or negligence. Um, then then I get that on top of that. So, that's to me like what that's talking about. Like there's there's a natural consequence of the things we know that we should or shouldn't be doing. Um, and then there's the increase in the trespass when there's actually a law that's on the books. so to speak. And so that you have the mirror that now we can look at ourselves at that wasn't necessarily there before. >> I like one commentator said he's like, "Go put a red button in a room with a bunch of kids and tell them not to push it." Okay. So we just introduced a law and a temptation. >> Yep. >> And when we create and got when he creates all these laws, there's an increased temptation to break those laws just by by nature. Okay. And then to your point, when we have a mirror to look against those things, that that trespass increases. That's the way I saw that. Well, MacArthur in his commentary on verse 20, the law made sin increase. We became more aware of our sinfulness and inability to keep God's standard. It served as a tutor to drive more people to Christ >> because again >> yeah it's what said on Joe Rogan and on Sean Ryan to where it's like the law is a mirror. You can't clean your face with a mirror. It can only you know smudge you up more. >> Right. >> Yeah. No, I I I I agree. I just I was just trying to the word increase just kind of grabbed me there >> where it's you're increasing the trespass. To me there's an implication that the sin is greater because of the law. I was thinking more of like an increasing my awareness >> like I'm more aware than I was before because I didn't I didn't >> I don't know. I guess I can see it there. There's going to be more sin because there is more laws, right? But >> grace becomes greater because there's more need for it, right? I mean, but do you mean like because a sin is a sin is a sin is a sin kind of thing, but like some c certain sins are worse than others. But then I mean is that what you're talking about? >> Yeah. I mean I guess I I looking at looking at this concept that sin is I mean sin being separation from God or CS Lewis says hell is a hell is a door that is locked from the inside. Yeah. And so this this idea that okay if sin is if all sin is separation from God and all and and essentially the salvation of Christ if you if you don't have that that results in you choosing your sin as as I like to say it's you've decided to hold your sin up as an idol that essentially you've decided that this thing matters more than Jesus and so I'm willing to take that with me. Okay. So if that if that's the case, my question is okay. Well, is that is when we say increase the trespass, >> thinking from the eyes, thinking from just like the the the mind of the mind of God, which I obviously cannot do, but thinking from him, it's like, okay, well, there is there really an increase if it's all just it's all just resulting in an eternity without me. Okay, I'm going to read this because Mark preached on Ephesians 5 last week and it says, "For you were once uh you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light, for the fruit of the spirit is in all goodness uh righteousness and truth, finding out what is acceptable to the Lord, and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done uh by them in the secret. But all things that are exposed may be manifest by the light and whatever makes manifest whatever makes manifest is light. Therefore he says awake you [clears throat] excuse me awake you who sleep arise from the dead and Christ will give you light. And I think the law exposed the darkness, right? That separation and that need, okay, for him. And when we when we see through through the law of of our need for him and to expose that darkness to others, right? I think that how do we know what darkness is without the law in this example? Well, so the same could be said in Romans 1 where the the natural law of God lets us kind of know that. However, when things become formalized, >> yeah, >> right? When the law is given, >> that increases Yes. our awareness of our sin and it and it names it, right? It categorizes it. >> And so, we have we have no choice but to when we realize our sin, that's what the increase is. >> Yeah. >> I don't think the law caused more sin like it was the causal agent. it revealed more sin. It's like, hey, you you're more messed up than you ever thought, >> right? >> So, it's more so like that. So, it's not that, oh, he gave the law and dad going really threw a wrench in the equation there, right? Sin's going to go crazy now because of, you know, God introducing these commandments and then the additional laws. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, maybe. I mean, again, it's it's increase the trespass, not the trespasses. You know, the idea that there's a law and there's a whole lot more things that you can now break because now all this there's a whole lot more that's been revealed to you to I mean to me this is to me there's an implication that suddenly with the law there is now greater sin. >> Well, there were there wasn't there was no line before and now there's a line and we're stepping over it. >> There's bigger there's there's there's some sin that's bigger than others is what I'm trying to say. There's no sin that's going to put you in a deeper place in hell, per se. >> Well, no. I don't know that I would. Uh I think we do see from scripture that there are levels of heaven and there are levels of hell. Uh not like in Dante's Inferno kind of a way where when you get to the final boss of hell, you got Judas [laughter] in one hand and you know, whoever else uh in in the other. Uh I think it was Hitler in Dante's Inferno, wasn't it? I can't remember. No, that would have been Yeah, that makes sense. Shut up, Kyle. [laughter] Shut up, you big idiot. Um, but no, like the like so this idea that all sins are equal, that's church camp stuff. That's not reality because you know the scripture puts sexual immorality in a completely different category, right? Because hey, this is the only sin where you're sinning against your own body, >> right? That's true. >> And if you look at the covenant of marriage and what is marriage, marriage is >> God's way of helping us understand what his sacrifice was for his bride. So as men, as husbands, that's the closest we're going to get to understanding Jesus's sacrifice that he was sent down to this planet to do, right? >> And so obviously sexual sin, whereas the only moral kind of sex is between one man and one woman for a lifetime, right? And anything outside of that is is immoral. >> That that just shows that the entire category is different. The only way we get that is through natural law, natural order, >> and then also the law, right? That that that's how that's how we get that. And then Jesus did, you know, came to fulfill the law, >> and he upheld it. That's where it drives me absolutely insane when people talk about how, oh, well, Jesus never talked about, you know, homosexuality, so I'm not going to do it from my pulpit. It's like, what do you think the word porna was that they used to write that down? Poor. So, I I heard a great uh, you know, apologetic for this. Um, I think it was Josh Howard when he was he was saying if I'm in a room with uh 200 people and one of those people is my wife. >> Yeah. >> I could identify my wife by saying everyone in the room who's not my wife. That person's not my wife. That person's not my wife. That person's not my wife. Blah blah blah. >> Or I can just point to my wife and say that's my wife. >> And implied in that explanation is everybody else in this room is not, you know, able to be Josh Howton's wife. Right? And so I think that's that's the thing here is where it's like okay we're pointing at something and saying this is the thing >> because you because people you don't see there's not AI described in the Bible there's not nuclear weapons there's not you know these modern forms like go back to Romans 1 inventors of evil right there have been evils that you know they don't talk about transgenderism and surgeries like that in the Bible but we have the applicable law yeah >> and the the dictates and teachings of Jesus that would allow us to create a delineating point between something that is morally acceptable and something that's not. >> Yeah. I mean, I would say I would say especially with when you talk about Jesus and and what he was teaching, I mean, to me, he made it so much harder not to sin in terms of what he's teaching. He made it much easier. What um I said this before that so there was 666 laws um in the Old Testament. And I think that was No, maybe it wasn't 600. 600 way too on the nose. 600. >> It was something high like this. It was over several hundred. It was 600. >> It was over 600. >> Now I'm like, >> but those look it up. Go make your point. Yeah. >> But this idea that >> 613. >> Thank you. Okay. So, he had 613 ways to separate you from God, but he gave us one way back. And the idea that the idea that then Christ comes and says, "Yeah, this this law I'm fulfilling it, but in a very real way, you know, this this spiritual milk that you've been given uh is not enough. Like it's not enough not to do the thing. You need to not even think about doing the thing. >> You need to like you can't even, you know, you can't even there's certain things you just can't feel if you're a follower of mine. There's certain things you can't think if you're a follower of mine. It It's not enough not to do. So, uh I think that it's um I wrote down here wrote down Christ is the multiplication of zero to our lives. That essentially whatever you had before Christ, he comes in and multiplies it by zero and you are zero. You are a clean slate. So at that point when the sanctification process starts all right now you're starting to add to that zero but at the same time I mean doesn't do anything for you but I'm just saying the um I always like the analogy of essentially this this idea that whatever the sum total of my sins were before Christ whatever he has actually laid on my heart as things that you have done to separate yourself from him uh that he can come in and multiply that by zero and You're you're clean. Controversial statement there. Obviously, [laughter] >> y'all y'all light that up because I'm working on something else. >> It's all good. >> So, I'm looking at my looking got dead air here, guys. Come on. >> Yeah. No, [laughter] it's okay, man. I'm just kind of let >> I told you there's three people. I got to write this down because I got to get something straight before I say it. Um, well, let me look here. So, as I get to, you know, we're ending that chapter, getting close to it. Tell me if you agree with these. So, I've got justification is forensic. Would you agree? Forensic. >> Justification is forensic. >> You just confused all of us. So, go ahead and uh >> you're talking to an auditor, so when you say forensic to me, it means a very, very certain thing. Well, okay. All right. >> CSI, >> we have a standing with the with the Lord, right? It's it's not a feeling. It's uh it sanctification is totally different. >> Um but it's it's a point. I mean, we have that standing. I guess it's a it's a standing with the Lord. >> I've got Adam was a real historical covenant head, >> right? He was the head, >> right? Right. I've got original sin is inherited guilt and corruption. >> Inherit. Okay. >> Christ is the second Adam. >> Yes. >> Righteousness is imputed. >> Yeah. >> Grace overpowers sin and salvation is secure because Christ lives. That was when I when I summarized the chapter, that's basically what I'm coming up with. >> Okay. >> So, but as we as we talk through this, I just keep coming back to um just the fact that none of that was on my own power. Um, and none of it I could do on my own. I could only respond. We've talked about that many times. >> Um, [clears throat] Christ had to do all the work. Adam did the work of getting me into this mess. Christ did the work of getting me out of this mess. >> So, all I can do is just accept what I've been given. Uh, take the illumination that's been given to me and put my faith faith in Christ. And then I can live with confidence in that. Um, the one of the things I that we haven't really talked about is just that relationship aspect of it. I mean, we've been hitting the nuts and bolts with this whole thing, >> but God wants me to enjoy him, you know, and to find satisfaction in him, too. So, I know we're not necessarily talking about that right now, but um when I think about like why God created us, I don't know that it was so that he could somehow I mean, maybe he wanted to be able to direct things and be super like he wanted to um have his hands on everything, but I I do think that he created us to have relationship with him and for us to understand that perfect relationship that he has, the Holy Spirit and with Jesus. And so, you know, we as we talk about all this stuff, um, I mean, I think it's important for us to do that, but but there's also just the satisfaction and knowing what's happened, what's what's been given to us freely and what we received that we didn't um deserve. >> And that through that we can have joy. I mean, we're going to get into this in in the next chapter about like, well, okay, if we've received all this, what do we what's our response supposed to be? Um, so anyways, just some thoughts on that. So Howard uh [clears throat] I don't know if you'll find solace in this or not but Augustine kind of agreed with the point you were making on the increase the trespass. So >> uh his commentary his comments on 2021 by this Paul has clearly indicated that the Jews did not know by what dispensation the law had been given. It was not given in order to bring life for grace brings life through faith. But the law was given to show with what great and tight chains those who thought they could fulfill all righteousness in their own strength were bound. So sin abounded both because desire grew more ardent in the light of the prohibition >> and because the crime of trespass affected those who sinned against the law. >> So he's saying that essentially because now they knew it's like it's the red button in the room. Don't push the red button. I want to push a red button. So, does does that get down to just just our instinct >> as as humans? >> Yeah, probably. >> Well, let me let me let me widen it out and then we can we can probably uh wrap up uh because we're going to be getting into six next week. >> So, why do we instinctively kind of buck up against the federal headship of Adam? Like, why why do we kind of have this this, you know, instinctual, hey, I didn't do that, so why do I get this? But we also instinctively will gladly accept uh we accept Christ that that we have an instinct to be like, "Oh, yeah, totally. I I'll accept I'll accept uh you know, his imputation, but we we don't have an aversion to that." >> Yeah. You weren't raised Catholic, so I I'm [laughter] >> Well, so no, so explain that because you're talking to largely Protestant audience. >> Yeah. So, I mean, >> they left with the uh priest jokes about an hour. Yeah. [laughter] I'm back, guys. No, I'm just kidding. Uh, so on the I mean, guilt is kind of baked into the Catholic cake. All right. I mean, and there is a lot more identification. It's it's why unfortunately you will see a lot of Catholics. There are some who I do believe are in Christ, but there's a lot who put a lot of their faith in saints and they will pray to those saints and they will ask, you know, it's I ask, you know, I'm praying to St. Christopher and I'm praying to uh I'm praying to Mary or they'll do those things because in a very real way I feel like they almost feel unworthy of going to God for those sins >> that essentially uh I can't ask Christ for these. It's like you know it's like if I call him there he's he's got the phone off the hook or he's blocked me. Um, and it's it's unfortunate because, you know, but I will tell you that all growing up for me, there was not this thing of there's not this thing of like, oh, I still, you know, was not taught to be super comfortable in Christ, I was super comfortable that I was a sinner. >> Mhm. >> That required reconciliation. And it was constant. You know, it's not like I can say and I'm saved. It's nope, you did wrong, recompense, penance. Here's what you got to do to make it right. You know, uh there was to be honest with you as a as a CPA, there's some comfort that there would be some sort of balance sheet that I'm trying to make sure that I'm staying in the black. >> Um it's a lot more comfortable for me, but at the same time, it doesn't make it right. So I would say from from my standpoint and how I was raised, >> guilt guilt was way more emphasized. And to be honest with you, it's probably why I might be more on the other. You know, I probably I think anybody who gets raised theologically in one area, if they have something that they kind of come to the realization like that's not the right way, we overcorrect. >> We overcorrect. >> So what would the overcorrection be? Well, for me it's probably just the idea that uh I think the idea like it to me it's hard to not see a lot of like I would not say I'm a cheap grace guy, but it does seem grace grace seems cheaper for me. Like when you're raised where I when you're raised >> when you're raised on the scorecard, whenever someone throws a scoreard away, it's just like h I want to be able to do some stuff. >> Yeah. I think I should be able I have to do stuff right and it's like no and then so you over so you can overcorrect and I would say I would say probably in the my college years I college and early marriage I overcorrected grace was cheap I'm saved >> I said the words I said the prayer I got dunked I'm good what else do I need to do you know >> Paul I know I know But but at that point, it's it's easy to point to grace at that point and just say, "No, it's it's it's cheap because everything I did up to that point was I got to pay for it." So, I don't know if that makes sense. >> No, it does. I mean, how how do y'all view that? Because I grew up pagan. Uh and y'all too [laughter] actually uh went to church. So, what's y'all's view on it? I mean, for me, grace was super important and and I grew up being a pastor's kid, so um you know, the law and and works was was never really a big thing. It was like and sometimes maybe grace maybe I took that too literally that, you know, I didn't have guilt sometimes for doing things wrong. Okay, you you swing back to the other side of like, h I've got grace. I'm okay. But like um my parents were very gracious to me and so I I mean I felt like mine was about a loving you know a loving father and I didn't want to disappoint him and so it wasn't necessarily like you know you've got to you've got to meet all these expectations and rules. It was like I don't want to disappoint him and I think it was that love and I I knew that he was there to forgive me and give me grace if I did fall but it wasn't a I've got to meet this expectations. So, I mean, I felt like I was pretty balanced in that growing up as a kid. And so, more of like I don't want to disappoint my heavenly father. >> Well, and I came from a from a household where we didn't talk about politics and religion. And um my dad was very disciplined um as an individual. Um he also was pretty stressed with uh being a football coach. And so much of my view of God early on before I came to know Christ was kind of based on it was rule-based. Um it was like I felt like I was maybe walking on eggshells and this is this is my own issue. Um but like when my dad was stressed I would take it personally and think I must have done something wrong and that's why he's mad at me. So, that's kind of what I how I viewed God is that God was always ready to to just kind of like let off, you know, some steam on you cuz he's he's [inaudible] at something you did. >> Um, so when I became a Christian, what I did not receive much of was disciplehip. >> Um, I just became a Christian. It was like I I was one of those that got counted in the the stat sheet at the end of the the month that we had four new converts came down and gave their life to Christ and then were baptized, yada yada yada. I still went to youth group and and whatnot. Um it really [clears throat] wasn't until well I'll even back up a little bit. I I struggled then right after I got saved with maybe I need to get saved every single day or anytime that I made a mistake. Um >> and so I remember distinctly at the end of the day I would not go to sleep until I asked Christ back into my heart. Uh especially if I had knowledge I was 10 to 11. And um and it really bothered me. Well, [clears throat] one night I had a very distinct dream. And in that dream, Satan and God were waring over me. I was literally getting pulled right and left. Like one guy, one of them had my arm and the other one had my arm. I felt like I was just going to get split in half. But I was also separated from the deal. So I could see myself over here >> watching it happen. And I remember being super scared about that. I was I was like this this I I cannot lose to Satan. You know, Satan can't win. And uh and then Satan didn't win and and God won that battle and then distinctly in that dream it became extremely clear to me and and I didn't know any verses so 1st Peter 3:18 did not come to mind but it it was basically clear to me that God had done this once and for all. My decision was once and for all and that I was saved and had could have confidence in that. And I remember waking up and it was it just made sense. I was like okay okay I got it. I understand. Now, that didn't that didn'tful well, yes, and that didn't completely remove the fact that I hadn't been discipled and I didn't get more of that until actually I went to camp and then had a mentor later on. Um, but so I don't, you know, I don't know where that lands, but I do know that that was a a gap in my understanding as a as a new believer. Yeah. >> And so I I just felt like I kind of >> just vacasillated a little bit and didn't know really which way to go or how to respond or or whatever. So God was not someone that I necessarily didn't want to disappoint. He was, but you know, it was kind of like I just didn't want to be [inaudible] at me kind of deal. It was like it just for the wrong reasons. I had no delight in the Lord. [snorts] >> So no, please. >> No. So, like, so over the years, and this is kind of maybe partly why I was saying what I was saying even about five or six minutes ago, is just [clears throat] what I've learned is that yes, there are a lot of things to know about God, but there's a heck of a lot of ways to be enjoying God. And um I've had lots of experiences over my life. Happy to share them later time, but just of um of not there's revelations that I've received from from God that like are through the Bible, but they're also just experiences that he just shows up in a moment. Um and it was very real. Um and it and it changed my life, you know, um to a point where I was like, "Wow, okay, this is not it's not just a book. It's not just follow these rules, don't follow these rules, whatever. He's real. Uh there's an experience, there's satisfaction um with him. And so there's kind of this been this continual movement now in the last say 10 or 15 years towards an enjoyment and a fulfillment within what I know and have through Christ. So >> wanted to attach to that. So when your dad was mad or frustrated, you felt like it was something that you did. Um, also is that not just an echo and a reminder to the dads out there like, hey, how you treat your kids and how they feel about you is going to have a direct correlation to how they see their heavenly father, right? You know, uh, I was very struck with that when I spoke at Lewisburg prison because the overwhelming majority of the people in the prison population are there uh, you know, because of their own actions. But just statistically, sociologically speaking, these are people that grew up without a father, right? And um so I even thought for me because when I say I grew up pagan, you know, that's why I describe country music theology. Like I grew up like, okay, we believe in God. You know, we when we vote, we vote Republican and you know, get baptized at some point. Doesn't really matter, but just do it. We don't need to go to church. Church ain't ain't no big thing. And you know, uh if you listen to music, listen to country music and you know, you're good cuz God loves all that stuff. Check all those boxes and you get to go to heaven. And you were born in Oklahoma, so you're already in the club, right? Um, but I remember like when my dad would be mad when I was a kid, I remember feeling like one that I could make him happy, get him out of the mood or the funk or whatever, but also I could have prevented that, right? But it wasn't necessarily from a place of, oh, I was bad and dad got mad. It was I could have done something to be upstream, to be left of bang, if you will. And you know, man, you want to talk about conviction whenever you have a little kid? I remember I can remember distinct examples with both of my boys with James and Eli cuz they both have pretty uh pretty sensitive hearts and you know they you know they're they're little and so if you do something or say something or even interrupt them, it can like overwhelm their emotions like I was just trying to say this and blah blah blah. But I've seen in my own boys them trying to when I've been in a funk or been mad try to save me out of it, right? or to hey dad wait like almost like they can see that the top's about to blow off and they're trying to like stop it before it happens and it's just convicting because I see me when I was a young boy trying to prevent you know dad's blow up or to prevent you know any type of acting out or any type of sin or something like that >> but then whenever I became a Christian as a 15-year-old >> you know Jake almost to your point I'm like oh I have the score sheet now >> okay so I just need to start keeping score right and I just need you know kind of like how a Muslim would think I need my good deeds to outweigh my bad deeds. And so, let's at least keep a mental note of the good things that I'm doing, the things I'm stopping. All right, I'm reading. You know, I wonder if I get credit for every word in the Bible I read. Maybe I get credit for every page, every chapter. Then you start kind of like creating these standards for yourself. Think of the the Pharisees and the Sadducees. Like Jesus wasn't, you know, repudiating the law. He's repudiating them, making up things in the law, creating new standards that were outside the law that were like additional revelation from these smart scholar folk. Like that's what you know that's you when you start the brut of vipers and the whitewash tombs and those types of examples. >> But ultimately I think all of us have to realize that there is no scorecard, right? And so that's the the issue and we we'll get into this uh next week whenever we get into six because you know we're going to get into antinomianism and we actually back into you know Catholicism and um and Protestantism when we do that but everything kind of you know not to be you know dramatic with it but everything in the first five chapters kind of we have a gut check with the first five words of chapter 6 >> right? What shall we say then? Now, which is, you know, the ESV, the language can be a little bit uh a little bit weird, but it's basically the so what moment. >> All right, got it. You know, we're we're bad. You know, Jews are bad, Gentiles are bad, we're all bad. Justification, you know, grace through faith, all those things. What am I to do with this information now? And so, guys, come back next week where we're going to start unpacking that. So come back uh having started your study into chapter 6 of Romans. But we're going to leave this discussion there. Add undotted life. Mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. This is the quick resilience boost. Logos. Undoned life Bible study software. Check that out. logos.com/doned life. If you want to start your own forging table, Crossway makes it easy. There's a fivebook starter set that you can get at a 50% discount. Check out the show notes to check all that out. And also in the show notes is a link to where you can become a donor. on donna.life/donate. We are a donationbased ministry. Everything we do is because we got guys giving 10 bucks a month, 50 bucks one time, 1,000 bucks one time to support our mission to equip men around the globe to push back darkness. We want you to hop on board. Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five-star review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@unton.life. That's info@undantton.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook. and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www.undauntton.life. And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is their song Perpetual, which is off their self-titled debut album on Faceown Records. The links are in the description. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the Lion of Judah. >> [music] [music]