Hey guys, real quick. So, I've talked to men literally all across the globe about where they're missing the mark and how they want to improve. They normally talk about how they wish they were in better shape. They wish they had a better relationship with their loved ones. They wish they had more success and influence at work and some other stuff like that. But here are some of the most common and biggest things that I hear. I wish I knew more about the Bible. I wish I could lead my family spiritually. I wish I could recall more scripture. I wish Bible study wasn't such a struggle. Well guys, I've got news for you. You don't have to keep wishing. It's time for you to start doing. It's time for you to stop wasting your time and money on stuff that has no eternal value whatsoever. I keep hearing you talk about how you want to be more biblically literate and spiritually resilient. And now is your chance to prove that you mean it. That's why I want you to take advantage of our partnership with the most powerful Bible software on planet Earth, Logos. So, Logos approached me about putting something together for the Undaunted Lifers out there, and we collaborated to create something I'm super pumped about, the Undaunted Life Study Bundle. So, here's the skinny on the bundle. There are over 200 individual resources and they include titles from authors like Vodie Bacham, Charles Spurgeon, RC Sproul, John MacArthur, Matt Chandler, Dietrich Bonhaofer, William Lane, Craig, Paul Washer, John Sto, Doug Wilson, Paul David Trip, Jipacker, and a whole bunch more. And there are so many helpful resources in there. There's Bibles, commentaries, Old and New Testament study guides, devotionals, systematic theologies courses dictionaries histories encyclopedias non-fiction books, and more and more and more. And here's the most insane part about this deal. If you were to buy each individual resource by yourself inside of Logos, it would cost you over $3,000. $3,000. But if you get the Undaunted Life Study bundle, you'll get all 200 plus resources for just $349.99. Guys, that's $3,000 worth of stuff for 350 bucks, guys. That's almost 90% off. And you know that you waste more than that on the hobbies that you have right now all the time. And these won't help you with your disciplehip and sanctification journeys, right? It's time to get real and take control of your Bible study and spiritual development. Click the link in the show notes for this episode. If you want the link, it's logos.com/undaunted life. That's www.llog.com/undauntedlife or the link in the show notes. It's super easy to sign up. Again, go to the show notes and click the link or go to logos.comlife. Sign up for Logos and get the Undaunted Life study bundle right now. >> [music] [music] >> This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. Welcome back to the forging table. The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges [music] spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. At the forging table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience by digging into God's word. And we're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with us. That's Jake. That's Howard. That's Eric. Now, Howard and Eric have never done this before, but or not together anyway. So, I don't know. I had to put you all across from one another just in case things get contentious. But we had a big problem whenever these two showed up, Eric, cuz you were the last to show up because you're you're Mr. Right on time. So, you know. Anyway, if you're right on time, you're late. I I think Vince Lombardi said that. [laughter] But obviously, we know that that chair in the corner is the big people chair, right? And so I always have to put these two there. And it's also the chair where you can most clearly see yourself on the monitor. So you will notice, guys, out there in uh TV land. Jake will be looking off camera quite often to to make sure that he still looks the same. But shiny. I wasn't sure who we were going to be able to put in there, but all I know is the the table is very much soanting that way. Yeah. So, I don't know what the issue was, but Jake was the first to show up, so he got the uh the extra special chair. And you got your own camera, right? That's your camera. So, if you ever need to make like a serious point, just go there. And I think Landon understands the idea, >> right? >> But, you know, I I did think maybe we could y'all could just like switch back and forth or like I don't know how you big people like deal with that because us like uh I've been called victim weight at jiu-jitsu [laughter] cuz I'm below 200 lb and they're like they literally like all the big people call me victim weight until we roll and then it you know it changes. It's slightly different after that. I feel I feel like with the with the the the size of my you know Howard I think's maybe a little taller than me or right at my height I don't know but I have a lot more I have a lot more weight than Howard does so claim to be >> I'm 6'5. >> My fighting weight was 66. >> Your your fighting height rather [laughter] was 66. Uh so who do you think's taller actually? >> I think I'm I'm thinking Howard for sure. >> Okay. Howard's at least a hair. >> At least the hair. I was going to say several. >> The hair helps. [laughter] >> But you are denser. And so uh that helps quite a bit. >> But what's funny uh about this whole setup is a couple of weeks ago uh you you're in Sunday school and you're like, "Kyle, I got something for you. You're going to freak out. >> You are going to flip." >> And the thing is I've been told that before, >> but then completely disconnected. Like we got home and then Kelsey goes, "Hey, Jake got you something and you're going to flip." I did. >> And I'm like, "Babe, I pooped my pants easily." like this is like do I need to wear a diaper? Like what exactly are are we doing here? But I have been in like patient anticipation. >> I mean I really hope I haven't overbuilt this but [laughter] uh >> it can happen. >> So So I have this >> Okay, so there's a setup. I love it. Okay, here we go. >> So here's the thing. Um this we're celebrating 10 years of undaunted life. Now >> this year is the 10 year anniversary of Undaunted and ninth year of the podcast, believe it or not. >> So to me that's that's a major accomplishment. Okay. >> Um, and I think that uh you have described something before and I don't want to spoil the gift. So, here you go. >> Like most metaphors that I have, I try I tend to stretch them uh a long way. >> Hey, you do as long as the setup [laughter] the setups I've had at this table have been substantial. So, just go ahead. >> But you to me you have 10, which is a worldly number of perfection. Uh, that's true. Uh, seven is perfection of the Bible. Worldly perfection is 10. >> But you have described a certain person as the absolute perfect player. >> So with that, open that up. >> Okay. [laughter] >> Should I like lean away? >> I don't know. It might get on you, >> bro. >> Yeah. All Hold on. It ain't done. Open it. >> Well, I know it's not done, but I just know by the number. >> You know by the number. >> Stan Mutual. >> That is Stan Musual. >> Okay. the most underrated player in the history of baseball. Correct. In the history. >> I would, as a Cubs fan, I agree with that. [laughter] >> Okay. Well, there's a little insert here. Okay. What do we got? >> Letter off a signed Stan Mutual jersey. >> Take a look at the front of that. >> The front of the jersey. >> You got to get it out of the bag. >> What the heck? Do I need to put on like gloves or for a non baseball player? How how old is that jersey? Uh, so I don't know how old the jersey is. Stan Musual's been gone for a long time. >> Yeah, he died I don't know, maybe about 10 years ago. >> Holy cow. That is a Stan Mutual signed Cardinal jersey. >> I [laughter] don't even know. Okay, let me get that up for the camera so we can whichever camera. All right, Landon, I don't even care which camera you show this on. Jacob Winkler, where did you even find something like this? >> You hunt, man. You find auctions, you bid on stuff, you win them. >> eBay. [laughter] >> I mean, it's been a while since I've kissed a man, but I'm just like, >> you know, uh, >> no, I mean, look, I I I was actually I shared this the other day. So, uh, >> I've I've been, it's been like five years that I've been on this journey of, you know, spiritual growth. And I remember 5 years ago going out to with a friend of mine to his ranch and he was like questioning his faith and I was like I have no answers. None. Zero. And through the Bible study that I do on Wednesdays and through the forging table and just the research and the time I have to spend on doing this. Somehow over the last few months, I keep finding myself in these conversations on faith. And I'm going, uh, okay. I'm actually prepared now. I can actually talk about it. >> So, I have a big thank you to you >> and there you go. >> Well, goodness gracious. How bad do y'all feel? Y'all just [laughter] walked in there like you walked in right on time and you had nothing in your hands, nothing to off discount. You brought me a [laughter] drink. I did. You brought me something to drink. We can't say what else. You did bring me something to drink. They can talk to people about Jesus already. [laughter] >> Uh when we're done recording, when we come around the table, I'm going to plant a big fat [laughter] one right there. But for now, I'm just going to reach back and say I appreciate Hey, are you good at folding stuff? Cuz I'm not also also good. Go for it. I'll also add in also add in after uh having Kyle be tortured through Lord of the Rings and professional wrestling. >> You know what? [laughter] >> I had some ground to make up. You know what? I will I will say with the pro wrestling, but especially with the Lord of the Rings, I [laughter] feel like I feel like I should Stan Mutual's like life, part of his life, the sign ball, you know, part, you know, well, it used to be Catholic. I didn't know if they have like indulgences. [laughter] Maybe there's parts of Stan Mutual that are floating around out there that people are selling. Thank you. Well, thank you very much. Well, okay, now we need to do y'all know where to get something like this framed cuz I'm never going to wear it. Like, where does someone even masters in Edmond >> Frame Masters? Okay, cuz like all I was going to guess is Hobby Lobby and I don't want like some purple hair in the nose to >> [laughter] >> uh if not no shade to Hobby Lobby like shout out to the Oklahoma company that is Hobby Lobby. >> So if you're if you're a DIY Hobby Lobby great otherwise >> so Frame Masters and Edund will do that kind of stuff I believe. >> Great guy over there. Mhm. >> Well, dad gum it. That is uh I don't even know where to go from there, but we've kind of >> So, I will say so, um >> Stan Mutual, you don't really understand the greatness of Stan Mutual unless you're a student of the game of baseball, unless you're a Cardinals fan. >> And Cardinals fans are very, very protective of the legacy of Stan Mutual. partially because you know during his time that was the time of Ted Williams and Joe Deaggio and Lou Garri and you know all the media and all the attention was in the Northeast right and so that's why you have so much you know >> people that pay attention to the Yankees or whatever but um years ago when I had that weird job with Major League Baseball whenever we were coming up there um you know they wanted to make sure we had stuff so they got our sizes of everything they're like okay what's your favorite food? What's your favorite number? What's your favorite color? like blah blah blah stuff like that. And so what they did was is Major League Baseball cuz we were all representing different teams. Uh the 11 of us that had this really weird job or nine or however many of them there were nine. And I was representing the Cardinals. They made us all custom authentic jerseys. They're hanging in that closet right there. I'll show you afterwards. And so they were the same ones that the players wear because the ones that you buy in the store are typically not the same ones that the players wear. There's a lot more. And like the birds on the bats, like there's a lot of, you know, detail that's put into that. M. >> And so it was Kyle Thompson authentic Cardinals jerseys and it was home. It was away and it was batting practice. >> But I put my favorite number down as six. [laughter] >> So there's a St. Louis Cardinals jersey with the number six with the name Thompson on it. I always felt a little bit weird about that. But here I am. >> I'm in Colorado. >> Mhm. >> Um I went to a St. Louis Cardinal Rockies game and I'm walking, you know, this is after the game. I'm walking back to the car or the hotel or whatever where we were staying and there was a Cardinals fan. He wasn't he wasn't being a jerk about it. And he's like, "Hey, what's up with the jersey?" [laughter] And I'm like, "What do you mean?" He goes, "Thompson six." >> Yeah. >> And I was just like, this is a stranger. I'm like, "Hey, man. This was a gift." Like, if I would have known that they were going to do this, I would have said my favorite number was like, I don't know, 98 or something stupid like that. No, no player like so. Toi was 99. Yeah. I would have said 98 or something like that. But and so I I really don't wear those whenever it's going to be anywhere near like Cardinals fans because, you know, they almost like get secondhand defended. But the thing is is when you look at, you know, I think he won the MVP three times. He's a World Series champion. You know, >> over 3,000 hits. >> Yeah. He's in all these tippy top categories. He played multiple defensive positions. And if he had played in Boston or New York, like he would have been a household name. A lot of people would put him on the Mount Rushmore baseball. >> Probably would have had a lot more home runs, too. He's he was just shy of 500 home runs and I believe uh lost a year one year for uh the war. >> Right. Yep. And >> the other thing that I actually I admire players who don't miss a lot of games. And if you go look at his stats and and you go look at his career, >> that guy was pretty much on the field every day. >> Yeah. He he played all the time. And the other thing about him is he was he was Mr. St. Louis. I mean to his family's detriment. If anyone came up to him while he was at dinner, he would talk to him. He would sign autographs. He would do all that. And that was back in the day. It wasn't mutual that came up with the quote. It was somebody else. I think it was uh Ted Williams. Um where he was like they asked him like, "Why do you why do you always play and why do you always play so hard? Why not just give yourself a break every now and then?" And and this is back in the day where people didn't they didn't have like mental health days and they didn't have like oh I've been slumping at the plate so let me take a day off. Yeah, there's no load management. And so, but Ted Williams is like, I can't remember Williams or Garrick or somebody. He said, "Look, there's going to be some dad out there >> that doesn't make a lot of money, and he's going to buy some tickets for his son >> because, you know, his son's favorite player is me for whatever reason. >> And if I don't play that day, that could be that kid's only chance to see his favorite player." And it wasn't a self- serving answer if, you know, he's like, "So, I wanted to make sure I got out there and and played for all these kids." And it reminded me of that kid um it was when John Calipari was still at Kentucky. Yep. >> And there was this picture that went viral. There's this dad that's covered in coal dust. Like covered from head to toe in coal dust and his son sitting right next to him. Do y'all remember this picture? Remember this? >> I don't even know what you're talking about. >> Okay. So, you know, y'all y'all can find on the internet or Yeah. You can look it up right now. There was uh there was this dad and he's still in his safety gear and whatever because he had just got done with his shift, you know, basically working underground at a coal uh you know, coal mine or whatever and he just had time to go home, get his son and take him to the UK basketball game. >> And I mean they K Cal Perry found out about that and they treated this dad and this son like like kings and a prince and they just like took care of him and like gave him more tickets and merch and signed stuff and all that kind of thing. And so I just I think about that as a dad like when I'm trying to give my sons, you know, experiences and trying to, you know, expose them to different things so they have respect for different things, things that maybe I wanted to do as a kid that I couldn't or or whatever. But yeah, it's just such an indelible image of being able to provide for somebody else, but uh not to blavorver the Stam Musel stuff [laughter] even further. But so there was an interesting thing happened for Cardinal Nation. And even if you're not a baseball guy or a Cardinals guy, it doesn't really matter. Um, Stan Mutual died and Oscar Tvarez died >> like in the same calendar year, I think. So, it was really, really close together. So, most of you won't know the name Oscar Tavaris. I know you will, Jake, cuz you're a baseball nut, >> but Oscar Tavvarz was the next big thing. He was the prospect that I I think grew up in the Dominican. I think he signed with the Cardinals when he was 15 or 16 years old. And, you know, that's what they do is they they find these kids. >> He's the Pooh's replacement, >> right? And so, and this was this would have been, you know, he was in the system before Puho's left for the Los Angeles Angels. >> And, you know, right fielder, left-handed, uh, beautiful swing, had had power, had speed, had could hit for for average. Like, you know, most guys aren't five tool, but, he had legitimate five tool capability at the big league level. Played a little bit in the big leagues, but in the offseason, he got in a car accident and passed away. Mhm. >> And so as Cardinals fans, you're, you know, you're mourning the deaths of two people that you didn't know personally, but with Stan Mutual, you're mourning what he was. And with Oscar Tvaris, you were mourning what could have been. >> Correct. >> Cuz I think he was 20 years old when he died. And so to make it to the majors, you know, >> barely out of your teen years is just something that basically doesn't ever happen. >> And he was going to be that kid that they were going to build around and all that. And then it kind of, you know, put things in not into a tail spin, but you whenever you kind of build around this one kid that you're bringing up. Oh, yeah. >> And then he comes up and then, you know, he dies. >> I mean, it's it you have you had this really young prospect. And the thing is is everybody in Major League Baseball has this one young prospect that they're circling and saying, "This is the next guy. This is the next superstar." >> And Tavvaris actually was that. uh the you know as a Cubs fan we have had a lot of next big things that were not and so [laughter] but Tavvaris was like no this guy is on a trajectory that is going to be superstardom so like yeah losing him I mean >> I it was like in the mid 2010s I believe wasn't it >> I mean it was it was again around the same time that uh I mean do you have up there when Sam Musel passed away >> there 1920 and he died in uh 2013 at 9. >> 2013. So yeah, >> Taris was 2014. >> Yeah. So >> Wow. So they're pretty close. >> Yeah. And so it it's just one of those things where, you know, it's interesting the the life lessons or the reflection lessons that you can get just by looking back on something. But also it it's just one thing as as fathers we all think about legacy. And I know Browning, you do a lot of stuff with Sandstone. Uh that's sand to do >> us. Sandstone [laughter] uh the number two us. But you're you're trying to like, you know, get fathers and sons out in nature, get them, you know, accomplishing things together. And a lot of men think that money is legacy, and it is, right? You know, leaving an inheritance. We see that that's a biblical concept. >> But also leaving leaving a gospel legacy, leaving a legacy of politeness, >> of accommodation, of charity, like all those different things. Those are things that can be passed down as well because like >> dads who are generous typically I have kids that learn generosity and it's just the air they breathe growing up. And so even for me like there were a lot of lessons that I caught not as many that I was taught as a kid. But even the things that I picked up as an adult or the things that I've decided for James and Eli that hey this is what Thompson men are about and this is what Thompson men are going to do. That's just going to be the air they breathe. And so if if they you know have families and have sons and those types of things, they'll be able to just kind of pass all that through. But now I I feel the need to ask everybody what's like the best gift they've ever gotten. [laughter] And so like just know some of our wives do listen to this and so uh you know take that into consideration. But like I mean that's without even thinking that's on the Mount Rushmore things I [laughter] would ever gotten like >> I was going to say like sports memorabilia wise like this wasn't a gift. This is something I got was um I was in um North Carolina for a work trip and had the chance to go down and uh and see um gosh, Pinehurst. >> Well, while I'm down there, we're walking through the Pinehurst resort, seeing all that. And I'm like, I'm going to go into the gift shop and get a a really cool something to take home. Well, I get a flag. And as I'm walking in and I pick up this flag, this guy walks past me. And I'm like, man, that guy looks familiar. And you know how you see somebody that's popular and you're like >> that guy >> I know them but like who is it? >> And I I hit one of the guys that with me and I'm like >> who is that? And he's like I know they're popular. Well it was none other than Arnold Palmer. >> Oh [laughter] >> the literally took like two minutes for it to come to me. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So I I get the flag. We watch him kind of go down through the resort and just kind of enjoy looking at all the old pictures and I'm just like, I can't believe Arnold Plumber is [laughter] walking right down the hall. So, he goes into the bar, is getting a drink with all of his buddies sitting around. >> Just any drink. >> Was it? >> So, could it be >> the story? We'll finish. [laughter] >> Okay. All right. >> So, I we go in and we're like, our dinner was later and I'm like, let's just go in there. We'll we'll have an early dinner and get home. So, we're sitting there. I've got a picture I can show you later on my phone. And we're sitting here, he's sitting there with his buddies watching the golf tournament and from you to me, Arnold Palmer's sitting there and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I should go get my flag signed." And I'm like, "But I don't want to be that guy." >> Yeah. >> Well, 30 seconds later, some guy walks in and he's like, "Arnold Palmer, Arnold Palmer." [laughter] >> You know, and he's like, so he pulls his hat off, runs over Nick. >> Me too. Me too. He gets [laughter] his hat signed and then he comes over and sits down next to us and he's like, "This is so awesome. I've got Arnold Palmer's autograph." And I'm like, "Yeah, I'm just too much of a chicken to go ask him." And he's like, "You should do it." And I'm like, "I should do it." And about that time they all get up and they're like, "Okay, well, we're going to go get ready for dinner." And I'm like, "Dang it, I missed my opportunity." [laughter] >> I kid you not. I go to the bathroom and I come back out. Okay [laughter] >> this is getting tangled. >> Arnold Arnold Palmer is sitting there. He had forgotten something and I run over. >> Yeah. [laughter] I run over and I'm like, "Okay, Arnold, I I'm a big fan of you, but I'm an even bigger fan of your drink." Like, you know, >> my favorite, right? [laughter] >> I said, "Can I get your autograph?" "Oh, I'd love to." And he's like, "I I've made a lot of money off of golf, but I've made a heck of a lot of money off that drink." [laughter] >> Oh my gosh. >> So, my favorite thing is my signed Arnold Palmer Pine. >> Does anyone at this table not like Arnold Palmer's by the way? I mean, no one's got one at the table. You got a nitro pop taco. But they make an iced tea lemonade. That's what I had before. That's what you walked in with. I remember throwing the can away. Okay. So, that's a pretty darn good gift that you gave yourself. But, you know, Ar Palmer was part of it. So, all right. >> All right. So, I'll stay with the sports theme. Like, I don't even know that my dad knows this, but like I was thinking here [clears throat] as we were talking about Stan Mutual. >> Um, my dad collected baseball card. Well, let's just say he had baseball cards growing up, but like what what did you do with baseball cards in the 1950s and60? Put them in the bikes. Yeah. So, [laughter] who knows how many Babe Ruths and others that he just completely destroyed Mickey Manel rookie cards. >> Exactly. [laughter] I mean I mean the thing was like I think you put the better ones in your spokes, right? Yeah. It's like around. Exactly. [laughter] >> Hey, which card are you destroying? Hey, which future wealth building tool are you destroying in your spokes there? >> That's [clears throat] exactly. So, but when I got older, my uh my dad gifted me his baseball cards for a couple reasons. one cuz I I found them and they were not being like >> taken care of. I was like, "Dude, like they're now worth something. I was collecting." He was like, "Okay, well, do what you need to do to collect, you know, make make sure they they last." So, he he let me take them. I've I still have them to this day. My wife does not understand. Well, I've got boxes of baseball cards here and there in our house. Even last week, I was out looking at some of them. She's like, "What are you doing?" I was like, "I just I just like looking at cards. [laughter] This is nostalgic." >> It's awesome. Yeah. And that's and that's me. I mean, I like I like things that are given. I mean, if you if you ask me like what my favorite gift was when I was going into college, it was get getting a computer. I never had a computer. It was like a big deal. But from a nostalgic standpoint, I mean, those baseball cards are something special. And I do have a stand mutual. I'm going to see if I can find it between now and the next time we get together. >> Uh, >> is it signed and can I have it? [laughter] >> Uh, no. And no. >> Why would you even find it? Just like look at it [laughter] and drool. >> I don't know. um thought it'd be fun. But anyways, those baseball cards are something special to me. >> Okay, very good. >> So, I think my number one uh so little thing, my great uncle was Bill Ve. Uh Bill Ve is in the Hall of Fame for baseball. He was a former he owned several different baseball teams. Uh he was not independently wealthy. He was like more of a hustler who kind of got a whole bunch of investors together, invested in a team, and then he would be the owner. Uh, but a lot of the things that you see in baseball now, he kind of came up with. But his most infamous stunt, if you remember the that went to bat. >> Yes, I remember the picture. >> That was him. That was him. He That was >> He was a >> No. [laughter] >> Which would be about the funniest thing. That would even be funnier, but no. He was the owner that put came up with the He called him gags, >> right? Cuz he was a who would like squat in his stance, so there was no strike zone. >> Yes. Eddie Goodell, uh, which was it was his name, which was fun. It's funny if you actually, um, there was a conversation with him and my great uncle about, um, you're going to go to bat, you're going to walk, and four pitches. Now, the pitcher, I don't remember the guy's name, could not stop laughing and just [laughter] threw four balls immediately. Uh, but Eddie Goodell looks at my great uncle and he says, "But Bill, what if they put it in my kitchen?" And he [laughter] >> he just goes up there hacking. My uncle was a former sniper uh in the army and just said, "I have I am a crack shot. I will be on the roof with my rifle and I can think you're going to swing. [laughter] You won't even finish it." So, uh he walked on four pitches. But anyways, uh my grandfather had a signed so he owned the Indians, the Browns, and the White Socks. And uh his first job actually was with the Cubs and he planted the ivy at Wrigley which is awesome >> over there. [laughter] >> So my grandpa had a ball that he got as a gift. There was three baseballs that were given. My dad got one, my uncle got one, and my grandfather got one from the 1949 Cleveland Indians. So there's six Hall of Famers on that ball. Uh Bob Feller, Satchel Page, Larry Dobby, Early Win, Bob Lemon, and Lou Budro. >> So you know all of them obviously >> encyclopedia. [laughter] >> Yeah, no kidding. Savant. >> Well, there's there's others that should be in the Hall of Fame that aren't. Uh but the um the cool thing though was so grandpa gave me his. Now growing up when my dad and my uncle Dave got their balls, my dad put his in a dark corner of the closet. So it is pretty well preserved. That's also at my house. So, I have two 1949 Indian Cleveland Indians baseballs. >> Uh, but my uncle Dave, my dad always convinced him that they needed to go play ball and they needed to use his. [laughter] >> This is like sand. >> Uncle, it is. Uncle Dave has one, but you can't see any of the signatures. Most of them are all faded away. So, [laughter] >> I want to think actually played with it. >> Actually played with it. >> Jeez. >> Okay. Well, that Hey, that checks a lot of boxes on the sports memorabilia front. So, uh, thanks for sharing, guys. Uh but we got to get into uh get into business here because we've been again, you know, peak behind the curtain for everybody. Uh we've been approaching, if you've been a fan or if you're new to the show, basically when we started the forging table, it's like, hey, let's just do a chapter at a time, an hour at a time, and you know, we did uh some Paul and letters, we did Matthew and Acts, we did Genesis, we've done some Psalms and Proverbs, but when we decided to approach Romans, we decided that we just wanted to do it completely differently. So, we just we stop wherever we stop. We pick up wherever we ended the last time, and then we just kind of see how far we get, and we're kind of scraping our way through. And so, we ended at uh Romans 5:11 last week, and this week we are starting in Romans 5:12. And there's a lot of ways to approach this section. I will say the remainder of chapter 5, uh there's a commentary by Merida that I thought was was helpful. But this is where Paul is kind of changing. He's explaining the believer's salvation in view of kind of the grand story of redemption and basically explaining that we only have two options. We are either in Adam or we are in Christ. >> And there are ramifications for that and there's a lot of uh debate about some of the some of the passages and I get the feeling that we're going to have a little bit of that here at the very beginning because even in our little group text leading up to this it's like >> gez just 12 through 14 is super heavy and then you know uh there might even be some heresy said at the forging table today. [laughter] I have no idea where that would potentially be coming from. And so, um, uh, you know, former Catholics, they just, they love running back to their heresy, right? And so, uh, we're going to go ahead and get into, uh, verse 12 here. So, Howard, just go ahead and read verse 12 and let everybody know what version you're reading from. >> Uh, ESV. >> ESV. Let's go. Just verse 12. [clears throat] >> Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned. >> So, it continues on from there. Really a lot of people read 12,13 and 14. And so even RC Sproul was talking about how 123 and 14 those are like some of the most important biblical texts. Well actually even as I say that Howard if you wouldn't mind just read 123 and 14 but then we're just going to go back and park in 12 for a little bit and then we'll see where we go. But I I think it would make sense to read 12 13 and 14 in a row. So go for that. >> Yeah. So I'll read read 12 again. So therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned, for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given. But sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. >> And so obviously it's very very important text. Um, you know, sinners are not sinners because they sin. They sin because they are sinners. That's a that's straight from John MacArthur. But also, uh, sin is something that was imputed to us, >> right? And so when you talk about the imputation, we've talked a lot about even being in Romans, how salvation, you know, righteousness is imputed to the believer. >> Um, and those that are in Christ, they have a salvation that is imputed to them. Righteousness that's imputed to them. But for those that are in Adam, they are living in their imputed sinfulness. This is an imputation is a one-way street. Okay? It goes from the giver to the receiver and through Adam, you know, basically all men have sinned. >> But, uh, a lot of people um, you know, when you start getting into, you know, tulip and again, so T, total depravity, U, unconditional election, L limited atonement, I irresistible grace, and P perseverance of the saints. And we've debated all those at different times at this table. Um, but I think for some people, you know, you kind of get hung up on total depravity and what exactly that means. And Jake, when we were talking in Sunday school last week, you're like, >> you made a statement that I'll allow you to buy back, but you're like, I don't know if I believe in total depravity. >> Not all of it. Okay. So, uh, how about you go and explain your position and then these two will just correct you. >> Okay. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> All right. So, I I don't have a problem with the idea that, you know, the idea that sin is imputed upon us. >> Mhm. So Adam, you know, Adam sinned that essentially all of humanity now is living within that sin and therefore will experience death without the saving nature of Christ. No problem with that. My issue actually surrounds the idea that within total depravity that essentially we have no ability to understand um scripture faith even faith itself is not an actual product of humanity but is actually the product of a of God granting us faith in him. So this concept that essentially I'm reading the word but I have no ability to understand the word because apparently I'm totally depraved which would preclude me and there's a lot of stuff I could circle around in terms of this idea of this idea of we're supposed to die to ourselves, right, and live in Christ. Mhm. Mhm. >> But if we are spiritually dead, how can we die again? So we're dead already and we're told to die again. >> We're not dead. >> Well, but >> the idea of total the idea of total total total depravity, the idea behind it is that we are dead. >> That we are not living beings >> and that we have no ability to understand the word. See, I actually So whenever I >> And that's a spiritual death. That's what you're talking about. >> Correct. And and Paul frequently will link these two. >> Yeah. We're dead in our trespasses and sins, >> right? It's not but it's not just a physical death. It's also the spiritual death. So there's two different sides of that coin. >> So when you talk about total depravity, this idea that we have no ability to respond to God because we are dead, >> spiritually dead, totally depraved in our state. Uh that is probably that's where my issue comes because um I made a I have a whole bunch of notes on this but uh I want to I'm avoiding going into a presentation so I don't want to do that. [laughter] But the I mean when you start looking at some of the confessions of faith that are done by mainly reformed churches uh a lot of those confessions of faith basically are saying you're it's uh so Westminster's confession of faith by this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion with God and so became dead in sin and wholly defiled in all the faculties and parts and soul and body. They bring the root of all mankind. The guilt of this sin was imputed and the same death and sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation. So that is chapter six. Uh so that human nature is not good anymore and is guilty in and of itself. So one question I would have is to me there's a very big difference between being sinful like carrying the sin of Adam generationally and carrying the guilt of Adam generationally. >> How would you see it as a cur? We car excuse me [clears throat] we carry the curse of Adam. >> So I think the curse of Adam is his sinful nature. >> So the question is is do we carry that guilt? >> I think the answer clearly is yes. Yeah. Okay. >> And so, so just just a few things. So, verse 12 does attach to verse 18, which we'll get to probably at some point in 2028. Uh, therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. >> And so, and even verse 12, I mean, it's attached to Psalm 51:15. Um, behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. And so, um, the the death that comes through the sin nature is imputed on on everyone that is after Adam, >> which I agree with that. Okay. So, I have no problem with that. My question is is >> is the guilt also imputed? >> It has to be. >> Yeah. >> You think it's one and the same? >> Well, because God Well, I'll say this and then I'll let you God doesn't have grandchildren. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> He only has children. And so you don't get it's like oh well your your dad was faithful so I'll just go and give that faith to you as well. But I mean what would y'all say on that? >> I guess would you No, go ahead. >> Yeah. No, no, no. I I have nothing really other than say I agree. Okay. Yeah. I think they are one and the same. Right. And and I agreed with you what you said earlier kind of reminded me of that 1 Corinthians 2:14. But the natural man receiveth not receiveth not the things of the spirit of God for they are foolishness unto him. Neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned. that and that what you were saying earlier that that is impossible for us to understand the word eliminated. >> Well, that's and and I think that's the concept of total depravity. It's not that you're just sinful and and and you inherit that sinful nature. Um which I I have a few verses that I want to talk through here uh on that I on that concept and and I actually said I would actually say I agree with the idea that we have inherited sin and probably inherited guilt. My my issue more surrounds this idea that we cannot understand the word. To me, I mean, I think we all know somebody who has been in pursuit of a relationship with Christ, but maybe they just have not been able to get there yet. >> And maybe it took a long time to get there. Okay. Well, >> at what point were they spiritually awakened in order to even understand what they're pursuing? >> Sure. Because >> it's a great question. Um so anyways u but the con one of the things that I was actually looking through is a lot of the Old Testament um Jeremiah 19:45 and because the kings of Judah filled this place with the blood of the innocent and built high places for ball. So they were sacrificing children. >> Um Psalm 105 they also sacrificed their sons and daughters to demons and shed innocent blood the blood of their sons and daughters. Matthew 18:34 that talks about that's you know uh assuredly I say to you unless you are converted and become as little children you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Then Deuteronomy 18 or Deuteronomy 13839 every young child who today has no knowledge of good or evil. They will enter there to them I will give it and they will have it as an inheritance. And this was when God was discussing the penalty for Israel's rebellion. So ultimately my my question is like what role does knowledge of good and evil play in our own guilt? >> Well, if we go back to Romans one, that's where you talk about there's the the moral or natural. I'll go ahead put it out. >> Again, I think that's that that knowledge piece. That's where Adam and Eve's whole fall came from, right? Correct. They wanted that knowledge that God had. And so I think that's that piece of us maybe trying to pull that back into our own self that we can figure it out on our own is what gets us into our problems that we're in today is that we think we can do it apart from him. >> When it might even be Go ahead. >> Yeah. No, I was going to say just playing off what you were saying about Romans 1. I mean it assumes and it says since the beginning of the world >> u the truth of God has been known and yet >> we we basically have said oh okay okay no I don't know about that. I think maybe it's >> good enough. >> Yeah. Maybe maybe yeah, maybe there's something better, right? So, >> well, it might even be be helpful cuz again, when you start getting into this, he who controls uh you know, the definitions of terms controls the debate. And so, not that we're having a debate, we're just trying to like kind of get the ground work, but I did find a a pretty good summary of of total depravity, which I think kind of hits a lot of the the different things. And I'm just wondering if this maybe helps elucidate some of the things that you're thinking through. >> But total depravity is sin has affected every part of man, mind, will, and emotions. Not that we are as evil as possible, but that we're spiritually dead and incapable of choosing God on our own. >> And so, you know, the texts are, you know, Ephesians 2 1-3. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins in which you once walked, followed the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, and the spirit that is now at work, and the sons of disobedience, among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. >> Um, and once once some a child gets past this the whatever point that is where they are now at the the age of accountability. Mhm. >> So, as I've had a lot of people explain, including uh Mark, our pastor, he believes that children that die in utero, children that die before they can even reckon with right and wrong or morality or people with some sort of a mental issue or mental retardation of some kind that keeps them from from acknowledgment of of moral that God is righteous to save those, right? And so, like, >> you know, because I've asked that a lot because I've Kelsey and I have lost two babies before we had James. Well, and to be fair, they're referenced as the innocent, which I think if God is referencing them in the as the innocent in the old I mean, >> pretty good hint. >> I think that's a pretty good hint. >> I thought it was interesting. I was reading in a MacArthur commentary, but like death, that curse, right, is still on an innocent baby, right? They still die because of the curse, right? Now, all the guilt and innocence and all that, I think 100% there's none of there. that that curse of dying is still upon all whether it's babies or you know I just think that's interesting that >> so you can you that definition that you just rolled out um which I would agree with. Can you can you go back to the second part of that definition again? I just want to >> Yeah, I'll read the whole thing. Sin has affected every part of man, mind, will, and emotions. Now here's the second part. Not that we are as evil as possible, but that we're spiritually dead and incapable of choosing God on our own. Because a lot of people get hung up on total depravity. They're like, "Wait a minute." Like, you know, Jim down the street who's an atheist, he gives to charity. Like, he lets people he like helps old ladies across the street and all that. It's like, you're you're saying that he should be murdering old ladies before they get across the street and that he should like be this horrible awful person. It's like, >> no, that's not what gravity means. It's that you know every part of you is pointed towards death right whether you're doing the most immoral things that you are capable of as a human >> that that is notwithstanding the nature that is pointing you towards death and only by the righteousness that's imputed or the justification that is imputed uh by the gospel of Jesus Christ will can you be saved and pointed in a different direction. >> So Jake is this a matter is this a question more of like does man have free will? >> Oh yeah, of course. I mean, is that is that what [laughter] we're really saying? Hold on. Let me let me make sure that let me clarify something. This is not a Pelagian argument, okay? Where I just decide I'm out and about one day and you know, it's like, you know what, I choose Jesus, okay? I don't think I'm not a Pelagian at all. I'm probably more on the Armenian side where I believe it's essentially a call and response. Okay? Uh so because and my issue is is if it's we're incapable of responding. >> Okay, that's the concept of total depravity is that we're incapable of despon responding. >> So here's my issue. How can you know if you've been effectually called and enlightened if by default there is no way for you to know whether you've been effectually called and enlightened? >> That's a great question. And the um so like what when when do you think a believer receives the Holy Spirit? uh I believe that when they are called by God and that they actually respond. So it again it Armenian thought here but it's the idea that essentially there is a call and there is a response or >> a revealing of the cup reveals itself if you will or if you will this u this offering of the cup uh if you you know the the idea of the Jewish wedding when Jesus was offering the cup to the disciples that is actually hearkening back to a Jewish tradition a Jewish wedding tradition and again I I love using marriage as as the analogy to our relationship with God because that's what that's what the Bible says is a great analogy for how this works. We've been called the bride of Christ. So this idea that we are offered the cup and in a Jewish ceremony, Jewish wedding ceremony, you get offered the cup, the wife is offered the cup from the groom and if she drinks of the cup, then she is respon then she is essentially accepting the proposal. That was their ceremony. And so in a way when he's when we do communion and we are offered the cup it's essentially we are offer I'm offering you this gift of salvation. I'm offering you my love. Will you receive it and you drink it and you say yes. So to me there's a call and a response. >> So not just a call and you're taken. >> It's actually interesting considering how this this all started. Obviously this wasn't part of the plan because I' i've asked a you know derivative or derivation. And I can't remember which word is correct, but one of those fancy words u of Joby this before. I was like, you know, Joby, if I if I made a gift for you of some kind and I offer it to you, do you not still have to accept it? I can't force you to accept it. So, you offer me this tremendous gift of a Sam Musel signed Mitchell and [laughter] Nest jersey with an authentication thing from an actual like, you know, uh, whatever auction house >> and then, but I still did have to accept it. >> Then we get into irresistible grace, >> right? >> Okay. Now I'll read this uh definition which again I think is helpful but you can quibble with it but this is a concise definition. >> When God calls someone to salvation the call ultimately succeeds. Okay that doesn't mean the initial call is the one that gets it but it's like ultimately there will be uh there will be a call that succeeds. >> The Holy Spirit overcomes resistance and brings the elect to faith. >> So that's kind of been my joke. you know, it's like, you know, someone gets saved, which is, you know, whether they chose to follow or whether they're held [laughter] down and forced by the Holy Spirit, you will do this. But, uh, and that's that looks at, you know, John 6:37 and 34. Um, but the I guess the nuance would be that it's it's not coerced. It's regeneration, uh, changing the will of the person. And that is the the gift that is imputed to us to where it is God that opens our eyes. It's not us choosing to, but there still is the interplay, right, >> of man's will, >> but even, you know, by the time you guys are hearing this, uh, the the interview I did with our pastor Mark Hitchcock, where we did almost three hours and covered all kinds of things, >> he had a really, so go back to that episode and and check that out. It came out in the middle of March, >> but he was talking about there is a difference between will and free will. Mhm. >> He's like, "Every man has will, but to basically, and I'm super paraphrasing, to pretend that we have freedom of will >> take away the power of the Holy Spirit that is doing the work of regeneration in someone's heart so that they would accept the justification that only comes through faith." >> Okay, let me give you an analogy. Go ahead Howard. >> And every analogy has a breakdown, but I was thinking through this myself as I was grappling with some of this because I grew up in a a church that it was Armenian, right? like free will, you know, all of that. And so, as I was grappling with some of this, one of the thoughts that came to my mind because Ryan Horn and I were playing chess recently. Okay. So, >> oh boy. [laughter] >> Right. Housing fun >> in a Yeah. life-size chess. Okay. So, in in this chess game of life, right, he's he's controlling. It's it it'd be like me playing chess against God, right? >> He's allowing me to make moves. >> Okay. I have no chance. Who's the really great uh chess guy? >> Bobby Fisher. >> Bobby Fisher. Okay. I could be playing chess with Bobby Fisher. We're just going to use God and Bobby Fisher is the example I'm playing against. I could make all kinds of moves. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> But eventually he's going to put me where he needs me. >> Okay. And I that's the way in my mind I'm thinking through the the difference here. We have free will. We have the freedom to choose these things, but ultimately he's going to put us into a position where we choose him. So I I think I've actually made that an the chess analogy on here before. Uh but the question see me I actually say you're it it's the chess board is essentially one side is the side I'm playing the other side is the god side god's playing. >> So I do believe that God can put you in any situation that he wants to put you in. >> Mhm. >> Uh >> that would assume that y'all have equality in the game. >> Yeah. I mean of course he's he knows the moves I'm going to make before I make. >> And that's my thing. He knows all of those moves we're going to make. But knowledge necess fornowledge does not begget decree. So is he decreeing which moves I'm making or is he just know which move I'm going to because God knows the hearts of man. >> So that's Frank Turk's argument. That's the Armenian side of the argument. >> The thing that goes against that, right, >> is the con the entire concept of election. >> Okay. So election is not I know who's going to choose and so I'm going to go and fill in my sheet here of those who will eventually be in the lamb's book of life but you know over time which again I'm God I live outside of time I'm already in the future right >> so I'm already knowing what they're going to do so that's something that I've struggled with Jake even recently which is like whoa wait >> it's not that that God knew >> again election is a choice and it's a one-way street that's again what imputation is it's a one-way delivery of a gift Yeah. >> And then in kind of like the the thought process of irresistible grace, it's that the [clears throat] Holy Spirit is powerful enough to save those whom God chose. >> Sure. >> And it doesn't make any of us feel good because I think all of us have been on [clears throat] the bad end of uh you know getting picked you know for a particular game at recess or whatever and we're like well crap I don't want to be the last person picked. Um, and so I I think that's that's all part of this interplay as well. Sure. Which is >> if that if what you said is true, then there is no doctrine of election. Then there's a whole lot of verses that have to be explained away. >> Yeah. So I actually I mean uh if you know who Michael Heiser is. Uh so Michael Heiser is actually the guy that developed the Logos Bible software. >> Oh, bam. So shout out. >> Extremely logos. Sorry. Yeah. >> There's 10 different ways you say [laughter] that word. So there's two of them. >> Logos. Uh so uh but here's one of the things that when he talks about election and chosen so I mean I've always been one that says generally I think when when I read election chosen predestined to me it's a lot more indication of the Jewish people and especially when you start looking at when Paul's writing about that it's typically surrounded by Old Testament references which would mean nothing to somebody who is not Jewish. I'm quoting scripture from the Torah and from prophets and a gentile has no idea what I'm quoting or it's like who's that? I have no idea. So when he's talking about that he's talking to the Jewish people. >> So when you talk about predestination election being chosen those types of things to me it's like no God chose the Jewish Jewish people but he chose them for one purpose. He chose them to bring forth his son. But the other thing is is when you talk about being chosen, I think you also have to remember, and this is Michael Heiser's argument, um, not mine. I wish I was this smart. But you also have to remember we are not God's only creation, but we are the only one that have been chosen for salvation. >> Animals die, they die. >> Plants die, they die. This earth dies, it dies. We're the only one who are offered redemption. And that after the fall, we are the only ones offered redemption and that ability to come back to God through his son. So we we've been chosen for that. Humanity has. That does not necessarily mean that only a few of us were chosen. It's that it's an available gift to all who would take it >> if they are called to God. If they're called by God then you can get and the other thing is is I think you also look at the idea and even [clears throat] Paul in Romans talking about the idea that you are being creation is reveals God. So even if you have you don't have the word. So this idea of even being chosen in election within that concept. I look at it and go, "Well, if all if the only way that God reveals himself, like I remember when my daughters were born and I'm just going like, if I did not have this, I would have seen God in that moment." >> Mhm. >> The first time you hold your kid and you look them in, you know, you look them in their eyes, it's like I know God exists. I mean, I mean, if I had no knowledge of any of this, it's like I would know God exists in that moment. And so, um, to me, it's like I I don't know that there's necessarily a limitation on who he would call and why he would call them. Uh, and I think he he could call everyone if he wanted. And I think he does. I think he calls everyone all the time. I I mean, maybe not all the time, but I think he calls them whether they have the word or not, whether they, you know. So, anyways, I I look at the chosen and election things and predestination. I I I have a very different outlook on that. However, however, I will always say I am not an authority here. The only authority on God's word is God himself. No human is the authority on it. Um it's like a lot of times when people say that's what the Bible says and I'm like that's how you read it. >> Mhm. >> It's just it you're not the authority on it. God's the authority on it. So I have to make an aotment that however I'm reading this I'm wrong. [clears throat] >> [laughter] >> So, I've said it before. I'm probably about 50% sure I'm right on this because this is probably the most the thing I struggle with the most is the concept of election and Calvinism in general. >> Well, and so there's a couple of texts that I think are helpful in terms of like we get some direct hints in the holy word of, you know, uh the word of God as to what God's desire is. 1 Timothy 2 3-4, this is good and it is pleasing in the sight of God our savior who desires all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 2 Peter 3:9, "The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." And there's, you know, there's there's several more that we can go into from there. >> Um the the the tension comes in is there are, you know, God desires for all to be saved, but all are not saved. >> And [clears throat] here is an argument that again I don't like, but I have to wrap my mind. I it's just like anything like when you tell your kids it's like you don't have to like it but you're going to do it right. [laughter] Why? Because I'm dad. I think all of us have had you know some sort of argument like that. You know you're not going to like it but this is the way it is. >> But the answer does come down to God is sovereign and God can do whatever he wants. >> Sure. >> Yeah. >> And I got to wrap my mind around that. Uh I may not like it but I do have to agree. And I think you know something because the the visual of this is important but you know when Joby you know goes up on stage and said or wherever and he holds up his Bible and he says where are you in reference to this? >> Mhm. >> Do you have this and then set your opinions and preferences on top of it? Because if you do that, you will ignore entire parts of this. >> Or do you take your opinions and preferences and place them below the word of God and say, "I don't really like this." Because this is what's kind of broke loose for me, Jake, even recently because >> this would have been um you weren't there. I don't know why I looked at you. You're in a you're in a apostate uh Sunday school class of some kind [laughter] or whatever. I >> know. >> Um >> but Howard, this would have been what two years ago whenever Ryan presented the the Oh, yeah. the not Armenian view the Calvinist view and Adam presented the Armenian view. They were originally going to do a debate and then they're like that that's not really going to fit what we're trying to do. So on two separate weeks they just described what each believed and here's something that I've since realized started at that Sunday school that that group of Sunday school lessons is there's what I thought I believed. >> Mhm. >> There's there's what I thought was in the Bible. Mhm. >> And then there's what the Bible said. >> And I was just like I was like everything that Adam is describing and he comes from an Armenian tradition. >> Yeah. >> And this is before he even was considering whether or not, you know, tulip comported with the Bible or whatever. He was just presenting his case. I'm like, >> hold up, mate. Wait a minute. I believe those things, >> but there doesn't seem to be a lot of scriptural depth defending those. Those are more about how we feel about what the text says, right? feeling >> and not as much as what what the text says and not just what it says, what does it mean? Right? If if we go back to the original language, original meaning, what does the text mean? >> And then you extrapolate that out over two or three years, however long, Howard, it's been. And then it's just like, especially in the study of Rome, it's like, God, there's what I thought was in there. Oh, yeah. >> And then there's what's just freaking in there. And like, what do we do with all that? And everyone proof texts [clears throat] on both sides of this argument, by the way. But I I think the other thing because we're we're actually wrapping to a close and then we'll we'll we'll start we'll getting into verse 13 next week. But [laughter] um yeah, it's just it's just the way this goes. >> Um so there was actually a great thing that just came out recently. By the time y'all see this, it will have been a couple of months ago, but Josh Howton was talking about this and there was a little clip that I shared with y'all that that kind of went viral. and he was talking about this debate that was going on between Billy Graham who is of the Armenian tradition >> and the great RC Sproul who is basically the lion of the Calvinist tradition right and so yeah you know tulip Calvinism was just basically a response to you know Armenius and all the different things and yeah y'all y'all can go back and research all the history and all that >> sign out of Dort >> yeah and so [laughter] uh there is and that's exactly correct but there was a question that was asked RC Sproul at an event um and it was about Billy Graham and I think at this point Billy had already passed away. I'm I'm not sure about the timeline, but let let me I'll just go from memory here. >> Um, and he asked uh the person asked RC Sproul, you know, again, Armenian and he has severe disagreements with with RC on things. Is Billy Graham in heaven? >> Which just posing the question with what culturally we believe at Billy Graham is that's rough. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. He asked if if he's going to see him in heaven. >> If he's going to see him in heaven. That's correct. That's the That's the correct setup. And then he said RC Sproul who understood pregnant pauses and how to captivate attention. >> Yeah. >> He paused and he said no. And then he didn't say anything for a second and then he said because Billy will be so close to the throne of God and so far away from me I probably won't even be able to see him. Yeah. >> And I was like oh my Yeah. The the mic drop of mic drops. So what's the point of that? RC Sproul would go to the mat even with people that agreed with him like John MacArthur. They would go to the mat and they would debate these issues on biblical topics, on theology, on every single thing within there. >> But ultimately, what we're getting into is preferential secondary or tertiary doctrine. Okay? Because Billy and RCA would both agree on the virgin birth, right? On the crucifixion of Jesus, the resurrection of Jesus, right? The ascension, the imput or the uh the arrival Pentecost of the Holy Spirit that was given to the apostles. Yeah. Uh the spread they they agree on all that stuff right? >> It's whenever you start breaking down into every jot and tit is where we start to kind of deviate uh from from what the standards are. But it's like if we can agree on core doctrine, then we can call ourselves brothers >> and then we're just going to fight about everything else just like brothers do. >> Just like family. Yeah. >> Just like family. And I for me it it is I feel like literally when I have disagreements with or problems with what I'm reading, it's I think every single time it has to do with how I feel about it, right? And you already mentioned that earlier. >> Like I it seems it seems like it's unfair. Why? How could that be? I pulled up Romans 9. It says, "What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath prepared for destruction." I mean, there's many other verses about, you know, God, he wants he has a preference for this or a preference for that. You like it or you don't like it. >> Um, but I feel like the vast majority of the time or every single time, it has to do with how I feel about something. But the reality is is that when I look and I've read I cannot tell you how many times I've read Romans 5 and six just in preparation for this. But just as I read that I I just can keep coming back to oh my gosh I literally could do nothing. I literally was truly dead in my sin. I had no way out. I there was nothing I could understand. And yet God while I was still a sinner died for me and and made me right with him and then illuminated the scripture. And maybe it took a year, two, three, whatever, >> and then it just clicked. It's like that thing in my heart or in my soul that wanted to, you know, wanted to be filled with every worldly pleasure. All of a sudden, he just kind of turned the little switch and then it just was like, "Oh, oh, that that is what I needed. That is what completes me." And then it was game on for Jesus. >> Amen. Well, guys, we're going to have to leave it there. Uh, but guys, come back here next week. We're going to start in Romans 5:13. But before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost. At Undaunted Life, our mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Uh, speaking of the Logos Logos, Loggo or whatever, however [laughter] you want to say it, we have an Undaunted Life study bundle. So, if you go to logos.com/undaunted life, that's logos.com/donedlife. There is over $3,000 worth of materials for $349.99. It is an absolutely tremendous deal. There's also a forging table crossway starter set. There's five books. You can check out all this in the show notes. So guys, go there and do that. And just remember, we are a donation based ministry. So if you're wondering how we can pull this off and how we are equipping men around the globe to push back darkness, it's because we have donors just like you. undoned.life/donate. undoned.life/donate. Hop on board and be a donor. Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive fivestar review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@unson.life. That's in nfo@ undaunted.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www.undauntton.life. And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is their song Perpetual, which is off their self-titled debut album on Faceown Records. The links are in the description. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the Lion of Judah. [music] [music]