Hey guys, real quick. So, I've talked to men literally all across the globe about where they're missing the mark and how they want to improve. They normally talk about how they wish they were in better shape, they wish they had a better relationship with their loved ones, they wish they had more success and influence at work and some other stuff like that. But, here are some of the most common and biggest things that I hear. I wish I knew more about the Bible. I wish I could lead my family spiritually. I wish I could recall more scripture. I wish Bible study wasn't such a struggle. Well, guys, I've got news for you. You don't have to keep wishing. It's time for you to start doing. It's time for you to stop wasting your time and money on stuff that has no eternal value whatsoever. I keep hearing you talk about how you want to be more biblically literate and spiritually resilient, and now is your chance to prove that you mean it. That's why I want you to take advantage of our partnership with the most powerful Bible software on planet Earth, Logos. So, Logos approached me about putting something together for the Undaunted Lifers out there, and we collaborated to create something I'm super pumped about. The Undaunted Life Study Bundle. So, here's the skinny on the bundle. There are over 200 individual resources, and they include titles from authors like Voddie Bauckham, Charles Spurgeon, R.C. Sproul, John MacArthur, Matt Chandler, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, William Lane Craig, Paul Washer, John Stott, Doug Wilson, Paul David Tripp, J.I. Packer, and a whole bunch more. And there are so many helpful resources in there. There's Bibles, commentaries, Old and New Testament study guides, devotionals, systematic theologies, courses dictionaries histories encyclopedias, non-fiction books, and more and more and more. And here's the most insane part about this deal. If you were to buy each individual resource by yourself inside of Logos, it would cost you over $3,000. $3,000. But, if you get the Undaunted Life Study Bundle, you'll get all 200-plus resources for just $349.99. Guys, that's $3,000 worth of stuff for 350 bucks. Guys, that's almost 90% off. And you know that you waste more than that on the hobbies that you have right now all the time, and these won't help you with your discipleship and sanctification journeys, right? It's time to get real and take control of your Bible study and spiritual development. Click the link in the show notes for this episode. If you want the link, it's logos.com/undauntedlife. That's www.logos.com /undauntedlife or the link in the show notes. It's super easy to sign up. Again, go to the show notes and click the link or go to logos.com/undauntedlife, sign up for Logos, and get the Undaunted Life Study Bundle right now. >> [music] >> This [music] is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. >> [laughter] >> That's so work. Let's try to hold it together. >> Just keep all this in. Keep every [laughter] last bit of this in. But, I'm going to go ahead. People are going to have any What did you do? Here, I'll do it. You know what? The Benny Hill [laughter] theme needs to be playing No, no, no, no. This happened last time, too. And welcome back to the Forging Table. The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. At the Forging Table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience by digging into God's word, and we're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey. That's Browning. I think he went to college. That's Howard, and that's Jake. Hey, what is it with your public school education that makes it impossible for you? >> [laughter] >> You're just another guy on the list that doesn't know how this thing works. >> I I figured like 3 seconds on the down hold would probably set >> your fat fingers just go to >> [laughter] >> You're So, there was nothing to do for 3 seconds. You spazzed for 3 seconds. Sounds like our sounds like our mission needs to be teaching guys how to do that. >> I was going to say You know, is that our mission? >> going to say, at what point do we push back the darkness of the timer? >> [laughter] >> Because We have I know of all the things that I thought would have merged as themes at this table, cologne, whatever one's essence it is, and no one being smart enough to operate a $10 Amazon-like timer would not be a thing because I had to when I was walking up here to get ready, I had to listen to you two big dorks talk about whatever Jake's essence was. >> Yeah. And so, is your essence over there on that screen? Are you looking at it? Hey, if you missed last week, Jake cannot [laughter] stop looking at himself. If you're wondering what's over there, there's a monitor, and he has the best view of it. So, he just like can't He just constantly like I I do got to swell I got to swell up. >> [laughter] >> There are things you can do, but yeah, go ahead and update the audience on your current essence. >> [laughter] >> I am wearing Creed Silver Mountain Water. Creed Silver Mountain Water. That's a What is this? What is this nonsense? I may have gone through my stash Okay, so peek behind the curtain. These fellows are awesome because James' last basketball game of the season, I use the term basketball loosely cuz they're 5-year-olds. [laughter] So, there's break dancing going on, there's fist fighting, there's interpretive dance as well. And so, so we literally recorded one of these. Y'all went and hung out for 2 or 3 hours, and then now we're back to knock out the rest of these. But, these Are these from your collection and you hid them behind the laptop? >> these are ones that my dad gave me. These are ones that he collected that he did not And look at the first one I turn over. >> did not put in his sports cards. >> the Man Musial at Oh, and another Stan the Man Musial. Let's freaking go. That's awesome. We got Mickey Mantle. Yep. From Oklahoma. Very >> The The Commerce Comet. The what? There you go. >> Have you looked at them lately to see what they're worth? >> So, I I have >> Probably in Kyle's left hand, he's maybe holding about 10 grand. >> [laughter] >> Be careful with those. What? Hey I'm Why Why do you have them in these packages? That's what I was saying. >> there are They make harder ones that have like screws in them and they're glass. >> and I have some of those. Those have literally been So, I have a um an old I'm actually curious. I have an old You know like when you'd go to the the postal box to go and get your stuff out, or they had the old ones that you would like dial in your three-digit code. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah, well, and they when they went out of those, you know, they weren't using them anymore, you could you could buy them at like antique stores and that sort of thing. Anyways, my mom had one of those, she didn't have anything and it was just on display and I was like, "Hey, what a great place to put some of the better baseball cards." So, literally those have maybe been out of that less than 10 times in the last 20 years. I also felt really nervous about the fact that I touched them so casually. >> It's okay. Cuz I'm So, like I was the kid that when I collected cards, I would get the Beckett, you know, thing and I'd get it every month to see if my value of my card went up 4 cents or something like that. Also, I spent the entire summer, so right in the peak of Maguire, you know, cuz like whenever So, Mark Maguire is a special player to me because when he was he traded, I believe, from the Oakland Athletics to the St. Louis Cardinals, that's when I decided the Cardinals are going to be my team. Because when I was a low-discernment second grader, I picked the Cubs as my favorite team. And then Ken Griffey Jr. was my favorite player so >> [laughter] >> And then you know, Griffey was my favorite player, and so I loved the Mariners and Jay Buhner and all that. But, then the first game I got to go to was Ballpark in Arlington, so that was the Ivan Rodriguez, Juan Gonzalez days, Kenny Rogers, those guys. But, my first official favorite team was the Cardinals. And it was because my dad, Papa Thompson, he took me to Was it Bill's Sporting Goods or whatever in Lawton, Oklahoma, and he bought me my first fitted baseball cap, right? And so, this was the Cardinals' road navy hat. And so, I was like, "All right, I'm a Cardinals fan." They were atrocious. Like My nickname on my teams in middle school like were was Little Mac cuz I had red hair and you know, hit home runs. And he had red hair and hit home runs. And then I spent most of like my middle school years like, you know, saving my money, collecting Maguire cards. I had them in my Maguire lunch box and you know, I I worked an entire summer to save up I think it was $110 so I could buy the Maguire rookie card. And the guy at the store knew what I was doing, and so he didn't sell it to anybody else. He sold it to me at kind of a discount cuz I was at like the height of Maguire's peak, so the worst time to buy the card cuz I think the card's worth like $5 now because he's a dirty, rotten, horrible cheater. >> [clears throat] >> And so, but yeah, that's that's what I kind of did all Oh, do we have some values on these cards here? >> Obviously depends on condition cuz I already said It does. So, like that is a mint nine is worth like $150,000. That would not be a mint nine. >> [laughter] >> It's worth $150. >> You got You got About 500. Hey, okay. Okay. >> That one's about 200. Okay. And [clears throat] this one was about 1,200. Nice. I feel like I'm on the Antiques Roadshow right now. And actually this is a 1960 because they have the fancy little lettering down here. Multi-colored. I'm looking at the Stan Musials right now. But, so Did everybody at this table collect baseball cards? Or like Of course everybody. Were you on that train? Football cards. Do we have Do y'all have any sense of what like your most valuable card is? Because I had one box as a kid, and this one box is where I put my my best cards. Because I would keep stuff in the booklets, and I would only take out my favorite players and put them in the booklets. And so, I had a bunch of Randy Johnson cards cuz that was my favorite pitcher. And I had a bunch of you know, whoever would have been, Barry Larkin and you know, Ken Griffey Jr. and I had a bunch of those but then all my cards that were valuable I never got into basketball cards it was just football and baseball like I had an Emmett Smith rookie and I had the thing was is I always had the the so I didn't have the upper deck Ken Griffey Jr. rookie which was the rookie I had like the Donruss one or the you know whatever and it was you know it was worth like not nearly what the upper deck one was. Do y'all know like what your most expensive well we're finding out yours right now. >> Yeah yeah yeah. You're looking at you're looking at my my best one. Okay we're he's talking he's referring to these Mickey Mantles if y'all didn't get a good look at them on camera one. About 130 130 okay. Will you take a hundred? Huh. >> [laughter] >> Will you take a hundred for it? We're we're doing a deal here. Call my dad. This one 150. For weirdly for weird reasons about 50 bucks. >> Come on. I'll give you twenty. >> [laughter] >> I'LL GIVE YOU THAT'S 110 FOR THE CARD. >> DEAL. Come on tell me the truth that's just worth fifty. We we didn't collude here he's just he's over there being honest Abe. Yeah well I mean it was probably bought for like one penny so. >> Yeah. Dude so the profit like yeah I mean you're making a stack right now. Well hold on I mean it depends on condition. Okay okay. Well if I were grading this we got a little bit of a a little bit of a nick here on this side. Now and you can also see that I'm actually serious I'm A mint a mint nine on that Musial the 1960 version would be 11,000. All right well there you go. But look look look so so check this out. So one thing that I do know about grading so look at how there's a lot of white right there on that side and it's thinner right there. So the card was cut so y'all probably can't see this but it's >> No but the see how the card was cut it was cut with less of a gap there and more of a gap there so it's off center which affects the PSA number. Come on. >> Right? That's an actual thing I'm not I'm making that up. So I mean my interest in these I mean it's kind of going down I mean I'll >> [laughter] >> do eighty. I mean I'll go eighty at this point. Best I can do best offer. Why don't they even bring these out right? Hey you know you have until the end of the episode to to you know let the audience know. Well guys My valuable one is 1960 Willie Mays. Oh nice. >> Speaking of Willie Mays. I pose this question off air and it's for all you guys that don't like baseball go have fun being communist go watch Lord of the Rings or some dumb crap like that. We need to talk about you know we could talk Mount Rushmore but I think it's better to talk goat because Okay. very few sports have a consensus go well actually I say that the consensus Jordan. goat for basketball is Jordan. Football is so hard because the most important position is quarterback and it's very very clearly the most accomplished quarterback is Tom Brady but how many of those championships did he get because Bill Belichick is like a dirty rotten cheater. >> [laughter] >> Yeah so so we so we have no idea and Pete Carroll you know making stupid decisions he should had another loss there tuck rule all the things. But in baseball it's so clearly consensually Babe Ruth because of how well he did on both sides of the plate. Now dorks will basically say well if he played today he wouldn't blah blah blah and if he had to go against Satchel Paige and the Negro Leagues guys and so okay well that's other world stuff we can't compare you know you know the Gracies you know in the first couple of UFCs like to Georges St-Pierre during his prime or to anyone that's fighting now. It's like a different sport and baseball a hundred years ago was just not the same sport. >> Well I mean I also like to remind those people who like to crap on the Babe and his accomplish accomplishments back then he played in the dead ball era. >> explain that. >> Yeah so back in the day pitchers were allowed to put anything they wanted on the ball. And if it was like dusk like there's a reason they have helmets. Yeah. So when it was like dusk the pitchers would literally try and muddy up the ball and make it dark and then they would pitch. So it was really really if you've ever played ball like around dusk you don't have lights on it's really really hard to see if you don't have a very very white ball and they did not do that so he was dealing with spitballs and loaded balls I mean there was no rules around any of that so yeah And the and the baseball was constructed completely different. Correct. A baseball I'm sure everything. So and what I I told you I was going to tell you this so I've actually held Babe one of Babe Ruth's bats and so when I worked had that weird job at Major League Baseball the main curator the the manager of Cooperstown of the museum came through my studio and was such a nice guy and you know he just offered he's like hey if any of y'all can make it up to you know upstate New York I would love to take y'all on a private tour of Cooperstown and all that and so I was the only one that took advantage of it because it was after the season this was after the hurricane that hit New York and New Jersey real bad and so the we lived I don't know on like 10th Street like so like from you know where the Hudson Bay is or whatever well like for 30 blocks there was no electricity and it was freezing absolutely freezing. And so what Kelsey and I did is we took day bus trips to Philly to Boston and then we took a bus trip to Albany and I rented a car and we drove to Cooperstown which by the way upstate New York is gorgeous if you ever get up there a lot of rolling hills and all that and so I get up there and he walks me through the main museum and then he goes come here and so we go to like it was either an elevator or stairwell I can't remember and so then we go down to like the basement where they keep most of the stuff that's not on display and then as we're walking in he hands us Tiffany gloves and I'm like oh it's going down we're about to be >> [laughter] >> holding stuff and so he gave me a game he let me hold a game worn Stan Musial jersey game worn and then we went over to the bat section and there were two really really awesome bats so the first thing like I think I got to hold Stan Musial's bat as well but he hands me Babe Ruth's bat and Babe Ruth's bat is legendary cuz it was like 40 oz or something which is a very very heavy bat. I mean it was it was more of a log than it was like a bat or whatever and so the fact that I was holding something that he hit home runs with I was like as a baseball fan you can't even like >> No that's not comparable. Yeah I mean I can't think of another corollary to another sport this would be like you know hold you know holding Arnold Palmer's driver Well yeah like when he was like at his peak if they had his driver or MJ like if you had a pair of like I put on his I put on the Jordans I mean from the flu game. Right yeah [laughter] it's something like that. >> And so but then he hands me a bat and he says this is Ichiro's bat and he he knew I was a baseball guy and he knew and he goes I want you to tell me what you notice about that bat cuz what does every baseball player do when they get a bat that they're not familiar with for the first time? They grab it and they just kind of like start moving it around you start like kind of flicking it trying to see where the the especially with a wood bat where is most of the where is the barrel on this and all this stuff. So he hands me Ichiro's bat and he's like I want you to tell me what you notice about this bat and so I grab this bat and I start like kind of flicking it with my wrist and I'm I'm like thinking and he just starts smiling cuz it was like he knew I was going to figure it out. And he goes what do you notice? And I go I feel like all the weight is at the very end of the bat not where the barrel normally is I feel like the weight is concentrated at the end of the bat and he goes go on he's like why why would Ichiro want that? I'm like he's a slap hitter he's a he's a left-handed hitter he wants to slap the ball between the third baseman or in the shortstop or over the shortstop's head he wants to beat beat out the throw to first base that was his entire game and so because I kept hearing these rumors of what Ichiro would do during batting practice sometimes sometimes he would just decide okay I'm just going to yank every ball out of the ballpark and he would like he like if he could do it cuz some people are like Ichiro's kind of a weirdo like they're like he could have gone yard all the time but he wanted to be the best hitter ever not the best power hitter he wanted to hit for average he wanted yeah he wanted to hit get 200 hits a year minimum like he broke the all all time you know hits record for a season and all the different things but it was just so cool cuz no broadcast talked about his bat like cuz all these broadcasters even like a Vin Scully they'd never like handle the bat but so that was you know part of the thing going down there. Yeah that's really cool I mean Ichiro is one of those guys that you go he would translate to any era of baseball and I actually would say that there's a lot of guys who are very successful now that would not translate to past eras because there's so much that's getting put on emphasis for like >> launch angle launch angle everything right home runs are everything and these guys are you know some of them are hitting you know hitting 220 with 40 home runs >> and they've got park adjusted like home run stats too now because they're just like well if they were playing here and so someone did a study so someone did a study I don't know how they could have possibly done this but they calculated if Babe Ruth had played against the same competition but in modern ballparks how many more home runs he would have hit because certain ballparks were like it would be over 500 feet to dead center >> Yeah the Tigers the Tigers were 400 down the line. Yeah so modern so just for perspective for anyone that doesn't that doesn't understand 400 down the lines like Yankee Stadium today right field is like 312 or something it's like preposterous that's shorter than most high school fields I've played on and so you'll have these can of corn pop flies that go one you know row deep and it's it's a bomb at Yankee Stadium right? But they I mean I forget what they said but it was a substantial number more of home runs that Babe Ruth had hit if he was playing in modern ballparks but but but I don't know do y'all feel comfortable enough with your baseball knowledge and fandom before we get to Captain Nerd over here when it comes to baseball [laughter] like you're the only guy I think that nerds out on baseball more than me. Can y'all give us your Mount Rushmore of Major League Baseball? Your Mount Rushmore? I got to think about mine while y'all are while y'all are doing yours. Uh, how many Mount Rushmore is four guys on it. So, whoever wants to go first cuz I'm I'm making mine right now. Ruth Bonds uh Ohtani and Mays. Okay, Babe Ruth, Willie Mays, Shohei Ohtani, and I'm not going to say that other one that you said because shame on you, okay? So, shame on [laughter] you for that. Mr. Browning. Oh, man. >> I feel like we got to do a pitcher one, too, cuz everyone does position players. Oh, man, now you're getting in there. See, I was going to I was going to put pitchers in mine. >> nostalgia. I I'm going to, you know, the Atlanta Braves were my That was my team. We lived in North Carolina, so I could pick lots of guys off of that. >> Change my my last one to Nolan Ryan. Uh, instead of Ohtani? No. Well, no, we're going to do a we're going to do a We'll do a pitchers a pitchers Mount Rushmore too. >> All right. All right. Well, I So, I know I'm putting you spot here. Yeah, I mean, I would So, Jeff Jeff Justice was was my dude. [laughter] I know. Just cuz you think he's pretty. Come on. You got a thing for him, don't you? So did my second grade teacher. >> Yeah, well, Cal Ripken 100% would be on there. Or junior or senior? Cal Ripken Jr. >> Okay. All right, just had to make sure. Yeah. >> [laughter] >> You never know. Uh, all right, sure. And Nolan Well, I can't say Nolan Ryan cuz we're doing that later on, but uh, I would have Mickey Mantle on there, and then uh, I actually put Yastrzemski. Okay, very good. Very good. Uh, great third baseman. All right, so do you want to do your pitchers now? You want to do your pitchers? >> to I'm going to wait. >> [laughter] >> You're going to put I'm really thinking mine through here. Oh, Nolan Ryan's going to be on there, 100%. Um Oh my gosh. Who's the long-haired dude that hit destroyed the bird? Randy Johnson. Randy Johnson. Yes. That's Steve Avery. Steve Avery would be on there cuz I got to pull him pull him off of and Tom Glavine. Probably give those two. Okay. So, okay. Oh, very good. Again, [clears throat] nostalgic picks. All right. I get it. Uh, he's doing research over there. That's okay. So, we're going to go ahead and move on to you. Give us your position player Mount Rushmore. Babe's got to be on there. Okay, you got Babe Ruth. Babe Ruth's got to be on there. Um This is deeper cut, but he needs to be up there, Rogers Hornsby. Yeah, no one knows who that is, but He's amazing. Isn't that a singer? No. That's Bruce. He sang on a lot [laughter] of cruise ships during his day. >> [cough] >> I've got the stats if you're ready to look at them. I dropped Roger Rogers Hornsby a one of If you guys have ever watched the Ken Burns baseball documentary, there's a quote in there about Rogers Hornsby. There was a guy that he was pitching against Hornsby, and the catcher caught it, and Hornsby watched it go by, and the catcher turned to the umpire and says, "Come on, ump, that was a strike." And he said, "Son, Mr. Hornsby will let you know when it's a strike." >> [laughter] >> So, yeah, I put Rogers Hornsby in there. Um I'd probably say I I think you got to say Mays. Um and then Woo. Um probably It's so hard to take anybody from the modern era. I just don't trust anything. Um >> [laughter] >> Cuz of the juice? Yes. Um Uh Man, this is hard. Mays Ruth Hornsby Getting to mix I probably Uh, I'll take um I don't want to s- We're doing position players only? Position players only for now. >> Okay. I don't even care if the audience doesn't like you. You can turn this off. I'm having fun with it. I can't I can't even I I Probably This is personal bias. Okay. I can't even do it. I can't even be serious about it. Ryne Sandberg. >> [laughter] >> I don't even know who that is. Ryne Sandberg? >> Oh, yeah, I knew that. Oh, Ryne Sandberg, sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everyone knows. No, that's a I mean, I think everyone from the Cubs like has to basically not count cuz the entire franchise didn't count for over a century. >> [laughter] >> If you think about it. I I'm not going to argue too much about that. Uh, centuries of a century of futility. All right. Well, hey, I'll I'll do my position players, and then we'll circle back around on some pitchers. So, Babe Ruth, who I think is the goat, Willie Mays, who I think is the most impressive player and that's a guy that his talent translated to any era. Defensively, you know, hit over 600 home runs, like astonishing. By the way, I just as a caveat before I forget, Griffey's on this list if he never goes to Cincinnati. >> But if he never goes to Cincinnati, but he did. Yeah. It ruined his career and still somehow he like tripped and stumbled his way to 600 plus home runs. Got to take Stan the Man just because super underrated and he did everything that Ted Williams and Joe DiMaggio did, but no one gave a crap cuz he played in St. Louis. And then the last one, if we go modern era because it's kind of difficult because it's like, okay, who's going to work in this era, who's going to work in that era? I think the greatest baseball player to ever exist up to this point in history is Shohei Ohtani. Because he is a top one or two hitter and also he's a top of the rotation ace. Like he's at any point when he's healthy He's had two Tommy John surgeries. He's a top five to top 10 pitcher in the entire league, and he does both both ways. If they wanted to stick him at first base, they could, and he'd probably win a gold glove there. And he's also incredibly fast. He's a legitimate five-tool player and he pitches. And so, it's just preposterous. So, that's my list, Ruth, Mays, Musial, and Ohtani. So, Mr. Stats over there, go and give us your pitchers. What is What is your pitcher Mount Rushmore? I I just I'm not enough baseball to be able to tell you, but I just found a couple that I remember over the years. Randy Johnson, like you talked about. Um Nolan Ryan, Greg Maddux, and Bob Gibson. Okay. All right, very good. Man, what was that You may know the stat. It was it Greg Maddux or It was one of those one of those aces at with the Braves that never threw more than three In his career, never threw more than three balls in a row. Um If it was more than like 20 It was Maddux. Yeah. Cuz I mean, he had complete games where he threw like 85 pitches. >> Yeah. He was pinpoint control, man. Unbelievably good. So, give us your pitching Mount Rushmore. I'll give mine, and then we'll we'll get into the scripture before the audience completely [clears throat] disengages. [laughter] Like I thought this was a Bible study. Uh, number one, I think Walter Johnson. Um old school. The s- I would put Bob Gibson on there. Ooh, that's a good one. The single greatest single season, the 1.97 ERA from a starter that >> They literally lowered the mound because of Bob Gibson. >> They said it. When they change rules after your dominance, then it means That's a good That's a good indicator that you're, you know, you belong up there. So, that's hard for me to say as a Cubs fan. So, Bob Gibson I would put Maddux on there, honestly. Again, just some amazing stories. I heard one I heard one at one time he uh threw a pitch against the Astros. He knew they they He's like, "We're going to see them again later on." >> Oh, yeah, I heard this story. We're going to see them again. So, this was Bagwell. Yes. >> uh, both teams were towards the tops of their divisions. And at this point in the game, I think the Braves are winning eight to nothing. It's It's basically a foregone conclusion that the Braves are going to win, you know, uh, Maddux is going to get the W. And he would call his own pitches based on how he would receive the ball back from the catcher. Yep. So, and no one picked up on this his entire career. So, if he caught the ball out away from him, that means he wanted the ball away. If he caught it towards him, like he would catch the ball here, that means he wanted it inside. And so, they weren't calling pitches up, down, low, blah, blah. It was just inside or outside of the plate. But they're going up against Bagwell. It's a It's an absolute dumpster of a game. It doesn't really matter. And so, you see him call for his pitch, and then all of a sudden he calls time out, calls the catcher out, and says, "Hey, I want to throw a changeup inside." And the catcher's like, "Are Are you serious?" to Bagwell. And he's like, "Oh, yeah, sure." And this was when Bagwell was who was definitely not juicing. Was He was like, you know, preposterous. He was like a deltoid with a with a bat. >> [laughter] >> Yes. So, he goes >> Accurate description. He goes back there. He throws an inside changeup, and Bagwell hits it about 750 ft. Okay, absolutely obliterates it. And the catcher is furious. He's like, "What are What are we doing? You had a You had a you know, shutout going. You had all these things going." And then on the way back to the dugout, he goes, "Look, we're going to play that team again, and he's going to be looking for that pitch." And it's fast forward to the playoffs. The Braves are playing the Astros. Bases loaded in a super intense situation, Jeff Bagwell comes up to the plate, and he strikes out on three straight changeups low and away. Cuz he was looking up and in, and three straight changeups low and away. And you can see if you go back to the video, that ended the inning, and as they're walking back, Maddux is barking at his catcher. He's like, "You remember? You remember what I said?" [laughter] Cuz this was like months before. But So, you got Walter Johnson, you got Bob Gibson, Greg Maddux. Yep. And I think the final one I actually think Nolan's kind of overrated, so I would not put him up there. Tons of losses, tons of walks. >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh, but I actually think the other one as an underrated pitcher, he missed a lot of time due to arm service, Bob Feller. Bob Feller. Okay. Wow. >> We got a lot of crossover on our list. I'm taking Randy Johnson. I'm going to argue that he's the greatest left-handed pitcher of all time, of course. More of a thrower than he was a pitcher, but, you know, especially when he got things figured out after he left the Expos, and it was actually Nolan Ryan that kind of helped him finish his delivery because he was so tall, and he was basically falling over when he was releasing the pitch and Nolan kind of helped him with that during the off-season. And I'm going to put Greg Maddux there because partially because I hated him so much growing up because I hated that he was just this nerdy nutty professor guy that was just throwing the ball 85 miles an hour and making you know hitters look ridiculous but in any era if you win four Cy Youngs in a row like that's ridiculous. So another guy that would be on my list number third guy would be Cy Young. So if you they named the pitching award after you that everyone after you gets >> [laughter] >> he got like 500 plus wins. Yeah 511 [clears throat] wins there's no there's nothing they could do to change anything about the game that would make that even approachable. I mean 300 games is starting to look like it's it's way too far out there for other pitchers. And then yeah give me Bob Gibson. Like if if I got to bring one guy in on their prime to win one game to save my life I'm going to bring in Bob Gibson right in tell him before the game like cuz he pitched angry and he just like he attacked the strike zone he attacked hitters and that was back in the era where you could throw up an inning and then everybody you know wasn't all sensitive actually I need to revise one I got to take Bob Feller off Satchel Paige. Satchel Paige yeah I thought about putting him on there that's kind of it's hard it's hard to know because he came into Major League Baseball so late he was very old. Did you give yours? Your pitchers yeah. Also it was very memorable obviously. But Satchel also Satchel had the Satchel also was a very quotable guy one of my favorite ones he's talking about Cool Papa Bell and he was he's talking about Cool Papa Bell and he says Cool Papa Bell was so fast that he could get out of bed to turn out the lights and be back in bed before the lights were off. >> [laughter] >> He's a quote machine him and Yogi Berra but all right well we we took a nice little jaunt into baseball land we do need to go and get back into scripture because we didn't cover a lot of ground last week because Jake decided to just like [laughter] overhaul the entire thing represent you know what here's the thing that I noticed about you as I was driving to James's game it's like okay used to be Catholic Mhm. Then you switched over to Protestant. Mhm. You went to an apostate church for a long time now you're a faith Bible. And so now you're like a comfortable Arminian but then you're feeling the pressure of what the Bible says you've come a long way [laughter] you've come a very very long way over these years. I mean what do you have to say for >> toward he's moving towards it. Moving towards what? >> I don't know >> [laughter] >> it's sanctification right right in front of us. Well I mean since I I mean since I'm depraved I would have no knowledge if I'm moving towards it or not. Oh is that right? [laughter] The self-deprecating defense jokes is that what we're doing now? But so last week we were looking at verses 12 13 and 14 like as a group we went over 12 in detail so I want us to move over to 13 and 14. So actually Browning if you wouldn't mind let's go ahead and read Romans 5 verses 12 13 and 14 and then we'll pick up our discussion from there and you'll be reading from ESV >> Therefore just as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin and so death spread to all men because all sinned for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given but sin is not counted where there is no law yet death reigned from Adam to Moses even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam who was a type of the one who was to come. So again going back to Sproul's words some of the most important scriptures in all the Bible in terms of just understanding theology understanding the the truth of what we see in the gospel. As I was studying for this you know even specifically with verse 13 you know they you know they didn't have specific revelation like Adam or the Mosaic law but all have still sinned against the holy holiness of God nonetheless which goes even back to Romans 1 and just our our generalized sin nature that we yeah and again just the the the breadth of scripture shows that we have no choice in the matter because we were born into iniquity and so yeah let's let's let's start digging in to 12 through 14 there's still so much there. Well I the one thing I was going to say and then we talk about this quite a bit here but the one that jumped out to me was sin entered the world through one man right and what happened at the beginning the woman took the fruit right and the man ate it Mhm. but it says here that one it entered through one man not one woman right we talk about that but it's the responsibility falls on us as men. Now you have Logos open Eric is is man referring to specific man Adam like if you if you double click the word you can kind of you can look it up or whatever because I don't is it referring to Adam or is it referring to man as in like mankind? >> it was referring to man now >> Okay. I don't remember going back and looking specifically at that one but >> Howard say it in the Greek. Say it in the Greek man would be Adam. >> [laughter] >> Good guess. You're like someone that's trying to actually order in Spanish at the Mexican restaurant that's basically how that sounded. Um one thing that we got into this so Jake are you still doing the RC Sproul Romans in a year? Um not really. Okay. So if you are doing the so I'm switching back and forth between a lot of different books but I'm doing that one consistently but if you go to page 160 of that we see a discussion of realism versus federalism and then also identity theory so I do want to kind of read a few sections from here so a comment he's referring to the section here a common explanation excuse me is the doctrine called realism. Realism operates on the premise that the only way that God could justly and morally condemn us for what Adam did was if we were really there participating in the act. We were really there so that when he sinned we sinned because we were really there. But then you fast forward to federalism classic reform theology refers to federalism as distinguished from realism. Adam was the federal head of the whole of the human race the name Adam which comes directly into English from the Hebrew term Adam meaning mankind. What Adam did in the garden was not simply for himself but for all those whom he represented. God appointed him during his probation in Eden to act for himself and for all of his progeny. People do not like that they say no damnation without representation but indeed there was representation which is the whole point here people squirm under this and say I did not choose for him to be the representative and so that's you know talking about the difference between you know realism and federalism and then just real quick on identity theory. This is coming from you know the combination of realism federalism expressed in the profound thinking of the Puritan divine Jonathan Edwards he put forth the identity theory we would need to have some idea of Platonic philosophy to really understand this. The idea is that in the garden we were present not because our souls were there but because we were there in the mind of God and what is present in the mind of God is present in reality. In Edwards' great treatise on original sin he said that if the Bible never taught a universal plunge of the human race into ruin at the beginning in Adam and if there were no such account of the fall in scripture reason would require that we posit such an event. How else could we explain the universality of sin in the human race? Our culture is schizophrenic on this point people do not want to acknowledge the reality of sin but of mistakes. They want to say that the origin origin of sin is environment and that people become corrupt because they are reared in a flawed culture. So those are just a few of the different schools of thoughts I don't know if any of that came up in in y'all's study but that that was helpful for me to kind of see okay how do people get to the point but all you know all streams lead to the same place which is that we're all born into sin like we you know we don't choose sin nature it's just in us like it's it's in our wiring so just like we didn't get to choose our parents where we were born all those different things we don't get to choose whether or not we are born into sin because Adam basically guaranteed that all of us were. Yeah I I had a from there were two views that were interesting to me and I just I was thinking like well you know how they didn't have any well I assume they didn't have any experience in the world they're just kind of all of a sudden they're just there. So it was like well how mature were they actually and there's two views the Augustinian view says they were created spiritually mature fully possessing wisdom holiness and innate alignment with God's will and so when they fell that was a great fall and then there's the Irenaeus view that says that they were spiritually immature sinless and pure but but had potential to grow into maturity over time. You guys run into that at all? >> see any of those. Yeah. I don't know if we need to go deeper in that. Well I mean that's as I I just I looked that up thought about it there I mean I I don't I don't know where I land on that but I can't I can't I can't it's interesting to me to think like would God set them up to fail by by putting them in an immature state or would he set them up for success by making them mature and wise and then they just still make bad bad choice. I don't know the answer to that. >> to think of set up for success where did he put them? In the garden of Eden where they had everything they could possibly want sin had not so if you get into Genesis 3 and you talk about when Eve was clearly talking to a dragon by the way team dragon >> [laughter] >> So the thing is is like do dragons are scary they're terrifying you see how dragons are you know like depicted in all that but at the time of this occurrence they would have seen no danger in any animal. Not not a serpent not a lion not a hippo which is maybe the the most freakishly scary animal of all but like there there was no fear of these animals. So it makes perfect sense that she would talk but you know when when Mark Hitchcock was here our pastor at Faith Bible he was talking about how it was very likely that Lucifer just he he embodied the serpent the the dragon or the the the upright lizard or whatever that he embodied that animal in order to communicate with Eve not that he was that animal like and you know when he was cast down he was cast down and into that animal but he just took the form kind of like how Satan can manipulate people today to influence other people you know when Michael Leehan was on the show you know he was a practicing Satanist for 20 years and he went from LaVeyan Satanism with his which is actually atheistic Satanism they don't believe in God they don't believe in Satan they don't believe in angels and demons they just believe in you know everything's about you and your power and what you do but at one point he moved over to theistic Satanism and when he did that that's when he started doing a lot of bloodletting sacrificing animals doing you know blood rituals and spells and you know all these types of things he talks about the power that Satan gave him and he's like look Satan can do miracles too Satan can give us stuff that works I talk about the enneagram in some of those things where you just kind of sneak in this new age things that have satanic origins and then people are like well it works so why don't we just do it in the church and write a book about it so you know it just shows kind of the craftiness of the serpent but the position that they were put in and also evidenced by the fact Eric when they were cast out of the garden he put an angel there with a flaming sword to basically guard entrance back into the perfect place that God had set up for them you know I don't know that it helps clear that view up for me but I tried my absolute best I know I know Well I think the one part is like you know God walked with them right and if God is spending time with you I would guess he's revealing his truth and wisdom and and maturity to them right I mean can't imagine he's you're in the presence of him and you're still immature and unknowledgeable right Yeah I mean I guess I just can't land that there was a there was certainly a purity to that whole situation um so regardless >> I think the one part you were talking about Kyle and where I kind of got into this a little bit and there was an RC Sproul video I watched kind of talking about this is like we don't like that idea especially in culture of I'm I have that curse on me like how did I do anything I didn't do anything why should I why should I have that on me like that that's not possible what happens every day right Let me let me let me challenge you on something okay What did God curse as a result of the sin What did he curse as the result of >> Yeah as a result of Adam's original result of Adam's sin what did he curse He did not curse Adam Are you talking about cursing the ground that he's going to work and cursing >> I I knew we'd I think you're going to I [laughter] think I know where you're going so I was Like what he and he cursed you know work and And work was in the garden before sin was Correct So I mean Everything was cursed after that like the whole the whole world all of creation was cursed Yeah but also in that moment there's there's mercy as well because again he could he could absolutely curse he could have cursed Adam he could have cursed Eve shut the door on their shut the door on them forever but he did not That's where I that's where I was going to kind of go with this is that if you listen to one of RC RC Sproul's videos it's on YouTube go look it's really great he's he's being interviewed and he's being funny about it at first but you know the question comes up is like why is God so harsh for one sin right like why why would he have not just forgiven them and gone on and [snorts] RC Sproul kind of laughs the the the group is laughing and then all of a sudden he gets serious and he's like get serious people like God could have just wiped them out right the the people or Adam and Eve came from dust and you're going to challenge the creator of this world and say that he's not fair he could have wiped Adam and Eve right there out and started over but instead he did he had mercy Now is it the mercy that we want or is it the mercy plan that God has and I that Well in the section you're referring to I'll go ahead and read it here cuz I think it's important so we're we're going back to Genesis 3 and so let's just start with verse 14 so this is with you know God talking to the serpent so the Lord God said to the serpent because you have done this cursed are you above all livestock and above all beasts of the field on your belly you shall go which would only be a punishment for a dragon so let's just talk about that so now I've got [laughter] to be on my belly just saying all the days of your life I will put in enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring he shall bruise your head and you shall bruise his heel is that the what's it called the protoevangelion or whatever like that's that's you know you know 3:15 is pointing to the future of the gospel where the line of Judah crushes the head of the serpent to the woman he said I will surely multiply your pain your pain in childbirth in pain you shall bring forth children your desire shall be contrary to your husband but he shall rule over you and then to Adam he said because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree which I commanded you you shall not eat of it eat of it cursed is the ground because of you in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you and you shall eat the plants of the field but the by the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground for out of it you were taken for you are dust and to dust you shall return So yeah he could have cursed humanity you know all in that moment he could have wiped everything out you know completely hit the reset button but he just basically cursed his own creation Right which he which he does later I mean he does wipe out all of humanity except for one family um but I I like I said I think it's important to note it's it's humanity has not been cursed here I mean we did it was Adam's disobedience that brought death into the world but to me it's interesting that God is not looking at death as a curse I would say though if you look at 1 Corinthians 15:26 death is an enemy of God right So death is death is one is the last thing that Christ will put under his feet and that will will be done away with uh 15:26 You want to just read that section The last enemy that will be abolished is death So he will put it under his feet like that that's a curse and he will do away with it So in light of that what you just said verse 14 yet death reigned from Adam to Moses even over those who sinning was not like the transgression of Adam who was a type of the one who was to come that gets back to okay when you get to Mo- Moses you get the Mosaic law and so that's an explanation for okay well what about all the people that sinned before the law I mean the law is I mean we'll get into this you know as we finish up five and get into six I mean the law was basically what it what it say I I forget the section but it said you know it's um sin increased because of the law because now there's an awareness of sin okay so you have the breaking of of God's moral law before the moral law was even given and now you have people that know the law that are all breaking the law and so sin is you know it's it's again it's the mirror so God gave humanity the mirror of sin which basically says you're depraved and here's the reasons like allow me to you know list list the ways if you will Yeah so I quote from Diodorus of Tarsus very old theologian so sin was in the world before the law of Moses came and it was counted though not according to that law rather it was counted according to the law of nature by which we have learned to distinguish good and evil This was the law of which Paul spoke I agree with that >> I think that I mean I do think that when you start thinking of just what saved those who did not have the law okay Abraham Noah they didn't have it but what saved them their faith in God >> Their faith in God that's it So faith faith is essential faith is essential here as we look at how you are it doesn't say that Abraham didn't sin we actually know that he did but at the same time it was his saving faith it was a faith in God as his as his God that actually ended up keeping him um well frankly keeping him out of the enemy's grasp >> Well that's Genesis 15:6 and he believed the Lord and he counted it to him as righteousness And so and again just contextually speaking with him uh Genesis 15 that was still a choice that Abraham had to make but even in how it it explains in that section of how he came to that realization it seemed like it was a foregone conclusion at the same time right so even you know that it brings in a little bit of the elect discussion as well because you know God chooses Abraham right Now that doesn't mean Abraham didn't well I mean Abraham didn't have choice okay well what about irresistible grace okay I mean you can we can do that all day with basically >> day we did that last time sure [laughter] We can always revisit can you imagine if Horn were here right if Horn and Grassmyer were here this would be an absolute dumpster fire imagine all six of us I'll I'll just I'll tag out >> [laughter] >> And so so I I so I read that as the section as there were there were natural there's natural sin like our natural there's transgression right and and that's different than sin is that correct Yeah to me >> we read is that how we I guess to me the way I read that is like you know, God put it on our hearts what is right and wrong, right? And that would they were following that from the time of Adam till the time of of the Mosaic Law. And God was using them or they were he was judging them based on following what God had put on their hearts, right? And So if you killed somebody, you're sinning. You're sinning. Even though there might not have been >> Even though the Mosaic Law is not there, but you it's imputed into you What? that you should know, right? It's written on your heart as Romans 2 Romans 1 says. >> God God wiped out all of humanity other than Noah. I mean, and his family. I mean, obviously he's counting sin even though >> Yeah. I mean, even though he's not written down in a law um it it is still counted as sin. And you know, it's I like the like the phrase the the law of God is written on our heart. I don't think we necessarily need to read uh the word to know when we are doing wrong. And the one thing I found is um is in my walk that whenever whenever you first start out, it's easy to find the big stuff that you can It's like, I got to get rid of this. And then as you go, you start going, "Oh man, I can't do that anymore." Like there's just these little things that you go, "I used to be like, no, that's fine. What's wrong What's wrong with that?" But the it's almost like you those slow compromises I actually >> tell this to my daughters all the time. It's it's you larger sins, it's slow compromises that get you there. It's not like >> and agreements. Yeah, it's it's not like it's not like somebody just wakes up one day and just like, "You know what? Armed robbery. Let's go." So, >> [laughter] >> you know, there's slow compromises that get you to that point that you would be able to rationalize in your head that it is okay for you to do that. But at the same time um I think it almost works in the inverse when you start going through your sanctification process because you're going those same slow compromises that you made along the way, you're going, "Oh, well, this is you know, this was a compromise that I made." Uh I Jerry Bridges Respectable Sins, great book. Uh honestly will make you feel like worse than you have ever felt about yourself in your entire life because he just is pointing out like "Hey, remember that time you were like watching a sports game and you got really angry at the other team because they were >> [laughter] >> Never happened. Never I don't ever I don't recognize that at all. Um well, I mean, it's what uh MacArthur said. Which is basically like the longer you're a Christian, so essentially the further you're along in your sanctification journey. Which I had some guy online try to tell me sanctification is a moment, not a journey. And I'm like, "No, it's literally a journey." Like I don't I don't understand why you say that. But basically it's like the longer you are as a Christian, the less you will sin and the worse you will feel about it, right? Because so, you know, if you're an adult and you have some very wayward things that you're doing, and then you be then you get saved, there's some things that you typically try to kill immediately, right? Some addictions, some proclivities, some decisions you made about your lifestyle. And you get a lot of like victory, right? At the beginning. And then at the further you go along, like before it was actual I mean I mean, let's say you were you know, in a same-sex relationship and you're performing sodomy and you know, there you're having sex outside of wedlock and with a man and you're doing all that. And then maybe you're 30 years into your journey and you're done with all that and and all those types of things. And then you just have a lustful thought Yeah. back to those actions you did. You're not performing the actions anymore, but then again, Jesus changed the entire structure of how sexual sin is even categorized. Like, have you ever lusted after someone in your own heart? That's basically the same as having sex with them. Do you hate your neighbor? That's basically like murder. But I think what we're all we're we're all doing is we're getting into the section Browning if you would actually read Romans 1. And this this big chunk Yeah, this is a big chunk we don't typically read this this much at once. But I think this really goes to everything that we're seeing and calling back to from Romans 5. So go ahead and read Romans 1:18 through 32. So that's middle of Romans 1 all the way through the end of Romans 1. You bet. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived ever since the creation of the world in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although [clears throat] they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their few foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. Therefore, God gave them up to their lusts of the hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves because they exchanged their truth about God for a lie and worshipped and served the creator rather than the Sorry, served the creature rather than the creator who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason, God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature. And the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness evil covetousness malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless heartless ruthless. Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them, but give approval to those who practice them. So verse 32 is an absolute hammer that J. Reisner of Faith Bible kind of pointed out to me to where it's like we have this long list of depraved things. And then it's also like, "Yeah, and if you're on the sidelines clapping along, if you go to the parade, if you do the things to celebrate it, it's as if you were doing them yourself, right?" And so, Jake, I am honestly curious, you know, even reading that, going back to our discussion from last week as it concerns [laughter] like this isn't a trick. Like I'm I'm just honestly like in light of some of the things that you're wrestling with and wrestling through cuz we're all wrestling through different things of different theologies. When you read through that, how does it how does it shed any light on what what we were kind of talking about last week on just the just the concept of total depravity in itself? Well, I mean, again, I it's it's the thing that I don't the thing that I have issue with on total depravity is is less about the concept of like me being born a sinner and being born into a sinful nature. I don't really have I don't wrestle with that as much as I do the idea that um that there's an inability for us to discern truth in our depraved state. This idea that essentially the only reason like, you know, what saves us, it's faith, right? Okay, well, I don't have faith. Under the concept of election, I do not have faith because I don't. And even if I did, I would have no way of knowing that I do. Because in my depraved state, I cannot discern whether I would actually have faith or not. To me, it's just like this endless circle that I can't act that I'm not able to actually get out of because if we know that it is faith alone through grace that saves us, then to me, there's no way that I can discern whether I actually would have faith or not. Either one of y'all want to tackle that one? >> [laughter] >> Yeah, I'm I mean, it kind of goes back to what we talked about last last week. I mean, it's it's there's nothing different about it. That's why we just we have [clears throat] to have God step in on our behalf. You know, he stepped in through Jesus uh when we were sinning uh and he steps in through the illumination through the Holy Spirit uh that that changes our heart because he elected us. I mean, without his revelation, we don't know that we that we are separated from him or that we need him, I guess. So can I ask this question? So, the that salvation would come from Greek word gnosis, which would be special knowledge. Yeah. Right? >> Just knowledge. Just knowledge. >> Yeah. Okay. So, Gnosticism makes the same claim. But Gnosticism, the main claim which makes it heretical is that it is a secret thing that is only known by like a a particular group. Okay. And so, I know that you could easily like back into that to where we had the secret knowledge only known to the elect. But the the Gnosticism was basically like it was creating a separation between even the body that is doing the sin. And so, there were a lot of other things kind of attached to the overall idea, but it was basically like this secret knowledge that was only knowable to a particular group. So, there is a there is a seemingly a delineating point there. Yeah, maybe. I don't know. It's I mean, Well, what makes Gnosticism a heresy? Well, I mean, it's the idea that there's only certain people who know. I mean, there's only people there's only certain people have the special I mean, the gospel is I mean, Gnosticism it's I mean you perfect example, Catholic Pope, special knowledge, I know what you don't. I am the voice of God on Earth. To me, that's a very Gnostic thought. So, do Gnostics uh proclaim Christ and seek to find converts? >> Some do. Well, a a core thing of Gnosticism is it is actually like replacing faith, which we see that grace through faith is how we get uh get to justification, with special knowledge. So, it's a replacement of faith. Mhm. Not the the not the precursor to faith, which is the revelation that God gives us. The Holy Spirit being imputed into us, like you know, God opening our eyes uh to the truth of the gospel. It's replacing faith with secret knowledge. So, it it's not it's not connecting the two, it's replacing it. So, would you say that God determines all beliefs then? Both belief in him and unbelief in him. I don't think he >> Well, Satan would create the separation of as far as like blinding eyes from believers. I almost feel like I might be stretching a little bit, so feel free to check me. Like I almost feel like that's more deistic. Mhm. Where it's like, yeah, God created everything, but he just kind of set it into motion. Mhm. But that's that deism attaches to like the oh Richard Dawkins talking about we're dancing to our DNA. So, the reason why we act and do things the way that we do is because that's just how we're wired. You know, God God made me this way or nature made me this way, so I have no other choice. And then if you get to extremely strict atheism, uh [clears throat] who's who's the the youngest of the four horsemen? Um So, it's not Dawkins, it's not Dennett. Uh Not Hitchens. >> Shoot. The other guy. Uh Not Christopher >> that like lost it during the Trump administration uh the first time and lost it during COVID. >> That's not a short list. Uh Will y'all look up the four horsemen of atheism? It's right on the tip of Sam Harris. Woo. Okay, so Sam Harris. That's one thing that basically he says is like, look, you know, we are just highly evolved chimps. We're we're dancing to our DNA, but then he struggles because of things that are wrong. It's like, time out. You don't get to have that category. >> Right. Because that is a moral category. And like this goes back to the easy Christian apologetic of like, okay, if there is a moral law from which we are to discern good between evil, there has to be a moral lawgiver. Agreed. Right? And the moral law is never going to come from nature. I agree. And so that that that's kind of attaching more to kind of the deistic thing where it's like, nah, I just set it in motion and then like he took his hands off the wheel and he's just kind of seeing what his little ants are doing in the ant farm. >> Mhm. >> [sighs] >> I I I I don't know. To me, it's uh to me, it's hard to get around the idea that if if God is the one determining belief, then essentially the beliefs are the product of a divine decree. Say that again. If God is the one determining belief in him, in or or should I say God determines who has faith in him and who does not. Okay? Um if that is the case, then those beliefs would be by divine decree. I guess I would say to separate the beliefs from believing. Like Beliefs is like a system of thought. >> of thought. Whereas believing would be a faith. Let's say Let's say this then. If faith is the product Faith would have to be the product of a divine decree, correct? So, lack of faith would also be by divine decree. Logic Logic would dictate that a lack of faith would also be by divine decree correct? That they were being prevented from faith? Prevented from even developing it? Yes. >> I mean, that gets us back into the the interplay between Yeah. God's sovereignty and will or free will. >> Right. Thinking like the robots and we're just robots, you know. Correct. >> Lewis uh world full of automatons would not be a world worth creating because automatons can't choose to love. Mhm. Right? I mean, even right now >> Which is where I'm at. I mean, that's yeah. Well, and you even if you look at I mean, what they're trying to do with AI, someone was trying to say like, don't take financial advice from AI because AI is a sociopath. It doesn't take emotions, it doesn't take it doesn't take, you know, uh any of those moral things into account. And there's someone right now that's like set a date like by 2029, we think we can make, you know, our AI sentient enough to be a moral a fiduciary, right? So, if you're a fiduciary, that means like you have to do what's in the best interest of the client, not in the best interest of you know, your commission rate or something like that. But the problem is is it's like you can't you can't algorithm or program morality. Mhm. Like you can give it rules and and, you know, parameters, but you can't, you know, give it you know, hey, you have to do this when something happens. >> Right. Did we figure it all out? Oh, I mean, obviously, this theological question that's been existing for the last, you know, few centuries. And when according to the Well, >> [laughter] >> how are you going to have the last word because according to this uh clock that only I know how to work, we're we're running up against time. I think the one thing that, you know, again, like I said, I've I've grown up in an Arminian kind of bent, but I think one thing that MacArthur gave me some comfort in is like there are so many areas like this in doctrine that Bible-loving or Christ-loving people continue to come down to, but it doesn't change our faith, right? That we need a we need a savior. And we know that savior. We don't know who's elected and who's not, but we're to be faithful in what our call is to do, right? To go out and preach the word to believers. Right? To share the gospel. >> the last word. Has the last >> I know, I can't say I'm I'm not I'm trying to You're trying to Ryan Horn your way back >> I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to do it. >> the gospel. Right? [laughter] And that's what we're told to do. And that's what we're told to do. And we aren't going to un If if I can understand a God that created the heavens in the universe, I'm stealing a quote, then he's not a god worth worshipping. I can't I'm not going to understand all aspects of him, right? So, I have to have comfort in knowing that like it's in there, it says it, and I have to have faith in that. Well, and I think we've we've brought up a lot of questions at this table and that we I think we've covered most bases and we've checked off all the boxes. The only thing that we still haven't quite figured out is So, 100 bucks for >> [laughter] >> Oh, man. What have I done? >> So, I mean, we looked it up. You did come up $20. >> it up. I mean, I gave you the whole hour to really think this through. What What an amazing 10-year anniversary gift this would be for your good friend Kyle. Oh, [laughter] wow. What a precious gift. Wait. Wait. Wait. Time out. Time out. So, guys, if you don't know what he's talking about, go back to the beginning last week. But I am going to get uh that that Musial jersey framed and it's going to be put up here in the studio. What if these cards could go in [laughter] and be part of the frame and like, you know, I'll put it in some non-dirty scratch scratch scratch up cases or whatever. Think of the display. Think of you you got you got a horizontal, you got a vertical, and then you got the signed jersey. They may be predestined for THE FRAME THERE. >> [laughter] >> WHAT DO YOU THINK? WHAT DO YOU THINK? ALL RIGHT, LOOK, you if you really want a card, I'll give you this one. But I've got to have that one. You got it. What What's so special about this one? I don't know. I like the colors. >> [laughter] >> That's like a GIRL THAT PICKS LIKE MARCH Madness based [laughter] on their jerseys. And then wins anyway. Golly. So, I tell you what, if if you'll frame that with that jersey, you can have this card. I will frame it with the jersey. It'll go in there and it'll be part of the Forging Table lore and it'll be I'm taking down the whiteboard and uh Stan Musial is going to be going right up there next to the Jocko Go for it. >> Oh, man. That's [laughter] freaking dope. I forgot to give you a kiss on the forehead, so I owe you two man kisses by the end of this. But guys, we we're we're we're over time, so we got to get out of here. So, uh we're going to do a quick resilience boost, but guys, come back here next week where we're going to be digging into Romans 5 starting in verse 15. But at Undaunted.Life our mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Logos Bible Study Software. So, Mr. Browning over here, who is incredibly generous, uh he's been in Logos and looking up some things while we were doing this, but we have a study bundle that we did with them. It is absolutely preposterous. Undaunted uh well, actually, it's logos.com/undaunted l o g o s.com/undaunted.life. I I gave it wrong twice. So, here we go. Guys, forget the last 10 seconds. logos.com/undaunted.life. logos.com/undaunted.life. It's over $3,000 worth of materials, over 200 different individual resources for 350 bucks. Guys, you waste 350 bucks on nonsense on a monthly basis, but this is stuff that is going to keep you I mean, you you could read one page of all these resources and you'll be in until the moment you die. So, there's that. We also through Crossway, we have a Forging Table Starter Set. There's five amazing books if you want to start something like this. Those would be a great place to start. And also, we are donation-based ministry. So, if you want to help us equip men around the globe to push back darkness, undaunted.life/donate or just slash I don't know what the slash directions are. undaunted.life/donate. Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five-star review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@undaunted.life. That's i n f o@undaunted.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook, and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www.undaunted.life. And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is their song Perpetua, which is off their self-titled debut album on Facedown Records. The links are in the description. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience, keep seeking the lion of Judah. >> [music]