Hey guys, real quick. So, I've talked to men literally all across the globe about where they're missing the mark and how they want to improve. They normally talk about how they wish they were in better shape. They wish they had a better relationship with their loved ones. They wish they had more success and influence at work and some other stuff like that. But here are some of the most common and biggest things that I hear. I wish I knew more about the Bible. I wish I could lead my family spiritually. I wish I could recall more scripture. I wish Bible study wasn't such a struggle. Well guys, I've got news for you. You don't have to keep wishing. It's time for you to start doing. It's time for you to stop wasting your time and money on stuff that has no eternal value whatsoever. I keep hearing you talk about how you want to be more biblically literate and spiritually resilient. And now is your chance to prove that you mean it. That's why I want you to take advantage of our partnership with the most powerful Bible software on planet Earth, Logos. So, Logos approached me about putting something together for the Undaunted Lifers out there, and we collaborated to create something I'm super pumped about, the Undaunted Life Study Bundle. So, here's the skinny on the bundle. There are over 200 individual resources and they include titles from authors like Vodie Bacham, Charles Spurgeon, RC Sproul, John MacArthur, Matt Chandler, Dietrich Bonhaofer, William Lane, Craig, Paul Washer, John Scott, Doug Wilson, Paul David Trip, Jipacker, and a whole bunch more. And there are so many helpful resources in there. There's Bibles, commentaries, Old and New Testament study guides, devotionals, systematic theologies courses dictionaries histories encyclopedias non-fiction books, and more and more and more. And here's the most insane part about this deal. If you were to buy each individual resource by yourself inside of Logos, it would cost you over $3,000. $3,000. But if you get the Undaunted Life Study bundle, you'll get all 200 plus resources for just $349.99. Guys, that's $3,000 worth of stuff for 350 bucks, guys. That's almost 90% off. And you know that you waste more than that on the hobbies that you have right now all the time. And these won't help you with your disciplehip and sanctification journeys, right? It's time to get real and take control of your Bible study and spiritual development. Click the link in the show notes for this episode. If you want the link, it's logos.com/undaunted life. That's www.llog.com/undauntedlife or the link in the show notes. It's super easy to sign up. Again, go to the show notes and click the link or go to logos.comlife. Sign up for Logos and get the Undaunted Life study bundle right now. This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. Welcome back to the forging table. The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. At the forging table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience by digging into God's word. And we're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with us. That's Zack. That's Russ. That's Ryan. And lookucky there. The timer is going fired forever. You are the new guy. You were brought out of the bullpin. Kabam. >> Russ may not be cockure in Calvinism, but he is cockure in his ability to turn on that. >> Are you ever going to take that shirt off? >> No, I'm not. I'm going to wear every forging table. I kind of feel like you should go full Conor McGregor chest tattoo, but of that right up onto the throat or whatever. Do you think your poor widow skin would be able to tolerate a really big tattoo? >> You have girl tatto. >> I have a back I have one on my back on my upper back. It's a huge cross. >> Yeah, it looks like it was done 40 years ago. >> It was It was done 20 years ago. It did not age well. >> Do you have a tattoo? I'll say. >> Nope. >> Okay. Me neither. >> What's wrong with you? Oh, >> and you're getting on me telling me I have baby skin. >> I'm sorry, man. We're on the same team here. What's wrong with what's what's the deal? What's what's what's y'all's excuse for? >> I'm sure their wives won't let them. >> Yeah, probably. >> No, that's not mine at all. >> Let me know when you get your pants back. >> Yeah, your pants. >> I've always said that I I would get them if I could get quarter sleeves, something like that. I want to be able to go all out, but in all honesty, I'm now at the age that I doubt it ever happens. Now with the age you you're talking like you're close days or 36. Have you looked at I mean you obviously know the price of getting something significant now. It's like >> when would I sit there and be like yeah I I have too many other hobbies to think about spending thousands on that. I >> But can you do your hobbies 24/7 365 for the rest of your life? >> That's how I I plan my hobbies to be able to The answer is yes. If you have enough hobbies. Yes. >> You just stack them on top of each other. >> Yeah. There's a lot of different hunting seasons. I mean, you just keep rolling, man. >> That's his excuse. What's yours? >> I don't have anything against him, but I grew up in a family where u my mom when she was in high school came home with one on her hand. And I remember growing up seeing this. It was a shooting star. Her dad, rancher, all that kind of stuff said, "You're not allowed to be in my house with a tattoo." And kicked her out basically. and she had to go find somebody to remove the tattoo before she could come home. And as the story goes, the the doctor lifted up her skin and cut it off. >> And to this day, she has a big scar on her hand. >> And right there, >> that's what I grew up with from the tattoo world. Uh, personally speaking, nothing against it. Don't know that I'll ever get one. I'm not going to rule it out, but I doubt it. >> The thing with you is what would need to happen with the both of you. You two degenerates. You know, you non- tattoo having weirdos. >> What needs to happen? >> Y'all are the degenerates. >> You can't just ease into it, right? You can't get a little girly tattoo like what Ryan has on his wrist. Like, you can't do anything small. It's got to be substantial. Like my face, >> back piece, neck, throat. >> I would have quarter sleeve or nothing. At least one quarter sleeve or I wouldn't do it. >> Why don't you get the whole thing, baby? >> Well, you run your own business. I'm saying maybe quarters. >> Yeah, I would be okay with that. I just it doesn't it's not in the cards right now. >> I'm in the process of planning out the right sleeve right now that I want that bat on my body. >> That's normally the excuse I hear. So where where does it stop for you? >> Uh right around my wrist uh on this. Are we going Are we going all the way to ankles? The bottom of your >> See, I don't really see doing uh leg sleeves. That's like a thing just not really something I've ever really considered. >> Leg tattoos are weird to me. >> Why is that? >> I don't know. It's just weird when you see a guy with a calf tattoo. This kind of reminds me of like a tram stamp. >> Well, it just depends on if it's like a tribal son on his calf or something like that. But what if someone got like a memorial of their dog like on their right thigh? What do you think? Remember remember the guy that was >> that would be like the gayest thing I've ever heard. >> I asked him about his tattoos. He he got them from his experiences in life >> and I said, "What's that one with the shark?" And he's like, "Oh, I'm a big surfer and I have this fear of sharks." So I went to South Africa and I wanted to go diving with the great whites to solve my fear. I'm like, "How'd it go?" He said, "It was horrible." He said, "It was like a school bus coming by you and gosh." >> Said it made it to totally worse. >> So, I had I had a family member that came back with a tattoo. They were in like overseas and they came back with the tattoo and I was like, "Is that a tattoo?" They're like, "Yeah, but it was like one of those like henna tattoos, like a fake tattoo. >> Temporary >> temporary tattoo." And it was of a dolphin >> on their ankle. >> That's the other problem. But this is this is a male. And I was like I was like, "Why did you pick a dolphin?" He's like, "I only had a choice between a dolphin, a scorpion, and like I I think it was like a scorpion, and like something else." And I was like, "And you picked the dolphin?" >> Yeah, scorpion sounds pretty good. >> He's like, "Yeah." So, I I I laughed, but >> your guy I I mean, the crazy thing there is like if you're afraid of tornadoes, I don't think that being in a tornado would get you over >> right >> the tornado now. Maybe swimming in the ocean without a shark and being like, "Oh, yeah, there's no sharks." That would maybe >> So, exposure therapy, Jordan Peterson, not sure about that. >> I think there's limits like the tornado, the shark. >> What he's talking about are fears that are not reasonable, right? people that are afraid of, right, >> elevators or something like that. There's a reasonable fear for being in like south of uh the Cave of Good Hope. Like, if you're afraid of fighting, I wouldn't say get into the octagon with Kyle, right? You know, it's like that's not going to help you with your fear of of being in a fight. That's going to probably make it a little bit worse. >> Hey man, I totally get it. I've >> But he was actually in the water with him right? >> Yeah. He fullblown. He was like literally it was like a school bus swimming by me is what he said. I think he was in a cage. >> Okay, that makes sense. >> I'm pretty sure he's in a cage. >> But I mean, could you imagine I saw Jaws way too early in life. Then I read the book early in life and that's a that's like a real phobia for me. My wife hates it. >> What is it? >> Jaws. Jaws. >> Was it a book? Yeah, it was a book. Well, but the the thing about that though is so I've had no desire to ever go surfing because people are like, "Oh man, the odds of you getting bit by a shark while I do while you do it is this, that, and the other thing." And I'm just like, "Okay, the odds of me getting bit by a shark when I'm not in the ocean are zero unless some shark NATO thing happens and like a great white shark is shot out of the Pacific Ocean at me, dude." And then it's different. >> No joke. I I mean, I've been through this with everybody in my family. All the stats, the vending machine's going to kill you before a shark will and all this crap, you know, it'll fall on you. We we we go out to a family vacation in Hawaii, go to this beautiful place on a beach, come back, and like a month later, I'm sitting there reading articles, and on the beach we were at, a lady was killed by a tiger shark. >> Dang. Just went swimming during feeding time. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Not a great idea. >> I'm also trying to uh That's a That's a good segue into just being physically fit. >> That a vending machine falling on me should not kill me. Right. >> I don't think >> that's how heavy is apparently that's a >> Can you look up real quick how heavy is the uh average vending machine >> because that that's >> maybe falling from stories above me or something. >> You're talking about tilting and falling on >> tilting and following me if a vending machine >> shaking it cuz it didn't give you your M&M's. >> Guys, something went wrong. Something >> kind of like how I've already been killed by the internet. how according to AI I died in a tragic, you know, bench pressing accident, but it was not nearly enough weight. And I'm just like, >> is that what I I never I heard you talk about that before. I never knew what was going on there. So, >> no, somebody literally put my name intoler Google. No, some it was some fan. It was a uh I think they put it in the Gemini or the Google thing and it said, you know, unfortunately Kyle Thompson passed away from a tragic weightlifting accident. He dropped the bar on his neck while he was doing bench press and it was not a substantial enough amount of weight for me to be satisfied with dropping that and killing myself. Right. And so the joke was right. I was, you know, getting warmed up with the bar. But it's like, you know, I would hope that my friends, you know, if they found me dead, that they would have the decency to throw a couple more plates on either side. It's like, come on, man. Like, you know, Kyle's, you know, he was repping 405 and he just got distracted and that's how it went. vending machine. >> Glass front vending machine looking around 640 lb. Drink soda machine 700 and 900 lb. >> So, it's possible. >> All right, Russ, that's probably your start shaking. >> That's a lot. That's heavier than we just moved my Sorinex outfitter rack like so much ease. I thought I was going to break it. >> Yeah. But before we uh launch too far into anything else, there is a debate that started downstairs that we must have at this table. But we're at the we're at the post, you know, we're at post halfway mark or whatever. We just had some uh well, we had a delicious thing, but I'm just not really quite ready for this debate. I feel like I need something. >> Yeah. >> No. Dang it. >> I'm excited about this. >> All right. So, every time here from here on out, >> most sophisticated formula. >> Uh just to set this up for people at home that are not familiar, Ryan Horn's got a little bit of a weak stomach, especially after he eats a little bit of food. And I'll just leave it there. We don't need to go that. But um these are the world's strongest smelling salts. Uh high quality ammonia stuffed compounds and what is IT CALLED, RYAN? >> AH, BAM. HOPEFULLY WE GOT THAT FOR THE EDIT. Um but yeah, we have to have this debate. But I'm just going to go and say this. I'm just going to say this. All right, Ryan. So just here here are my hands. You don't have to do it, man. Because you know I don't want you to to go a little crazy, but it is going to be wrestle use is close to you. Okay. So but I'll go ahead and do it first. This is a fresh bag. So, we have done this once before with this bag. And the reason why Ryan is so sensitive to this, by the way, guys, Alipcia, he does not have nose hair. >> Yeah. Apparently, that catches some of the things in there. So, he's got a little bit more of a sensitive sensitive nose. What is going on? >> I don't want him I don't want to go in Ralph City in here, but >> just the shake freaks me out. >> We were just talking about being scared of things. I'm scared of smelling. >> Shoot. All right. All right. Remember, keep your eyes closed. Oh my There it was. One more. Okay. All right. >> It's been a while. It's been a while. >> Do you have to go four times? >> Yeah. You got to really get the full the full thing. >> Yeah. No. Get a little closer. Get a little closer. Get it up. All up in there. There it is. All right. Clears out clears out everything. Stings the nostrils. Stings invigorating. >> Other hand. >> Right. You okay? Just get after it, man. Just get just go. >> Water. >> Oh, man. He put it pretty close. >> Oh, that's close. >> All right. How are we doing? How we doing? Doing okay. >> Got that tickle. >> All right. So, now that we're all clearminded, except for Ryan. >> Apparently, there's an age-old debate that we need to participate in, which is, is it chili if there are beans in it? Okay. I did not realize until a few years ago that this was like such a substantial thing where people were like really really mad about categories to where it's like if there are beans in this but it can't be called chili. >> What's it called? >> Yeah, that >> Yeah. What would you call it? >> Can I change this to where I'm not to the point that I would say I wouldn't call it chili? I don't know what they would call it if it's not called chili, but I am not a being chili person. >> That's a difference. That is a difference. >> That's like saying you don't like Caesar salad, but you like Mediterranean salad. >> What? >> No, no, no, no. I'm I'm saying that I'm not on the camp just because I just because that I do not like chili with beans. >> I wouldn't go as far as to say, well, if you put beans and it's not chili, I don't know what else it would be. It's obviously I would love to hear somebody explain to me what it is. >> Chili with beans >> if it's not chili. I I don't mind beans, but like when I eat like chili, I like it on a chili dog and then I don't want beans on my >> But you also put onions in there, which ruins everything. >> Delicious. >> Everything. >> Onions are delicious. >> Hey, can we talk about what your brother discovered that is 100% true as as we read through scripture? Can you go and explain >> uh your butt? >> Go back to Genesis. No. So So Kyle was talking about his hatred for onions. And I don't know anybody that hates onions more than my brother hates onions. Except for I Kyle, I think you and are right there together. So my brother, >> he has this um this hypothesis. I I don't know. He's trying to use scripture to say that there is a possibility. Okay, he's a pastor actually. is a pastor pastor and there's a possibility >> that in the garden that the tree of good and evil actually had a fruit on it that when it was eaten that just the same way that God punished the snake uh by making it crawl on the dirt and the dragon crawl in the dirt turn snake all this stuff the animosity >> that for the fruit he actually took it from the tree buried it in the earth said that it'll look like an apple with the red on the outside but whenever man cuts into it. You cry to remember the burden and the tears that were shed from the sin and it would make it grow from under the earth. So that's my brother's >> again. Wait a minute. But what was the name of the tree again? Can you say it? What was the name of the tree? >> What did I say wrong? >> No. No, you didn't. You didn't. Just repeat it. >> Good and evil. >> Good and evil. Doesn't it make sense that the good on the tree would be delicious, lovely red apples? >> Yes. And the evil would be the noxious, horrific, terribly tasting, terrible textured onions. Would that not make sense >> if you hated onions? I love onions. So what does that mean for me? >> You're depraved. >> Am I like a snake snake person, too? No dragon. I'm It wasn't >> It was a dragon. >> We go in there. >> Why is it a punishment? >> Because dragons still existed after the fall. >> How do you know that? >> Uh Ken Ham. I saw a big boat in Kentucky once and that that's what proved it. I'm just saying it's a dragon because why would >> tell me that onions were on the tree of good and evil. >> Well, we've already gone past that. That's been proven. That's been proven. We just did it. >> I'm sure my brother right now like I hope you hear this because this is like >> he may be more proud of me at getting this out than anything I've ever done in my life. So >> I could eat an onion like an apple >> that >> So So have you heard So >> why >> I was telling the story while you were down there. I think you you weren't involved, >> but but at church camp or like a lock in one time, we set up a prank to do caramelized apple eating contests, but we made two of them onions. And uh and the people that bit into them, like it was >> said he would punch someone. No, the thing is is if anyone ever pulled that prank on me, which is probably going to keep me from ever eating a supposed caramel apple for the rest of my life, I'm 100% reflexively going to fist fight the nearest human being. Right. So, you think it's funny? Let's give Kyle a caramel cover. >> I think it's great. We just >> This is awesome. >> Who was the person that you wanted next to you, Kyle? >> No, I'm not going to say. I'm not going to say. It's against the rules. >> Joby, get back. >> Uh, >> it wasn't Joby. It wasn't Joby. It was He's not allowed to prank me with food because I've tried to get that guy to eat a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. >> Peanut butter and jelly sandwich at the hunting retreat was the funniest thing I ever seen. >> So for people that missed it on our Instagram >> every year, the church 1122 takes a group of people to Southwind Plantation in South Georgia and they do a white tail hunt and then you can, you know, you can duck hunt and do some other different things there. It's a great great facility. But uh one of the guys that was there mentioned how ridiculous it was that Joby had never had a peanut butter and jelly and I was like, "Yeah, I agree." And then as a just an aside, he's like, "Yeah, it'd be kind of funny if like you were able to, you know, talk to the chef and get them to, you know, serve him a peanut butter and jelly." Because every night when we come home from the hunt or whatever, you go this great lovely dining room and they bring you these wonderful meals and all that. And I go, "That is precisely what I'm going to do." And so I sought out the chef and I told her about the thing and she's like, "Wait, he's never had a peanut butter and jelly." I'm like, "Yeah, right. He's he's ridiculous, right? This is this is stupid." And so we planned it all out. We're here we are getting our steaks and everything like that. And the server was so good. She just set it down. Didn't even didn't even look look back at him or nothing. And I'm like over there hiding behind a Christmas tree like taking video. And that stupid Jack Wagon just like laughed and all that. He's like, "No man, I ain't going to eat that." And he started playing his banjo and whittling on a stick. And I was like, "You just take a bite. Like what's wrong with you?" >> When she set it down, he looks so confused. Like John McCarthy was reading the message Bible like what is going on? around and he's like he knows there's there's something up and that I'm probably involved and here I am hiding behind an ornament and it's just like yeah this freaking idiot. But yeah, I mean I've been praying for him and uh I've been doing my absolute best. But yeah, I'm just going to tell tell the world caramel covered onion or some sort of sneaky onion thing. Not going to happen. It's not going to happen at all. But hey guys, uh we're getting into Romans 5. So we've been looking forward to this for a while. We wrapped up Romans 4 on last week's episode and so let's go ahead and get into this. So Russ, if you will go ahead and read, just read the first couple of verses of Romans 5. And he's reading out of the ESV. >> Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him, we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. >> Yeah. So, one of the interesting things about these two verses I saw in MacArthur's um shortened commentary, you know, access to God through Jesus that it's only used three times in the New Testament. The word access here, it's only used three three times total in the New Testament. This this verse, Ephesians 2:18, and Ephesians 3:12. And so, again, this kind of goes back to the okay, what have we been given? Who is the primary agent? And what have we been given given to? like what has been given to us, >> but access by faith to Jesus. And so I think that's an interesting place to kind of start this cuz the section is titled peace with God through faith, right? But then it's like, okay, what is that faith that is imputed to us? As we saw at the end of Romans 4, what does that get us? And it's access to Jesus. So let's let's kick off the the discussion there. >> This basically comes down to reconciliation. I mean, this is what this is. We're being reconciled with God through who? Jesus Christ. And so if you I think um RC Sproul put it the best. He was like without without estrangement you don't have reconciliation. So this whole time uh Paul is going over our arangement with God through sin and then brings up Christ and how we're reconciled through him uh and justified by our faith in him that we are reconciled with God. And so one of the cool things that I I kind of read about this as well is that we see and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. This is where he talked about that boisterous rejoicing like this boistering uh boisterous assurance that we are saved through the propitiation of Christ's death on the cross. >> And then when it goes into glory um that glory is kind of a doxology like singing out the praises of God for what he's done for us through sending his son to die on the cross so we can be reconciled. So dude, not only did we sin, but he actually came back as a propitiation of our sin so that we can be reconciled with him. though >> the um I heard a biblical scholar had had taken that word access and said that it was actually derived from like a role that would be in a king's palace and that that role was the person who whenever someone was to be presented before the king they had to be prepared basically uh the right garment the right like cleaned up everything needed to be kind of presented correctly and so like somebody couldn't just go in what they came there with but they would actually have somebody that was in charge of telling them basically like this is the stature that you should come into and preparing them to be before the king and so that they were they were garmented and whatever to be presentable to the king. So that role was actually that access word was that role of the person in the kingdom who would transition the person from being unacceptable for the king to being presentable to the king which I love. So you would not get that access unless you were prepared for that. Which kind of brings up remember uh I think it was an ask a pastor with Joby and Joby you asked Joby like what's God what's Jesus doing right now? What's Jesus doing right now? And he's like sit next to the father interceding for you. >> He's basically that role. >> Yeah. >> You know the role is he's interceding for you and your faith in him against a uh towards a just father which is pretty cool. >> Before we move on, I just want to bring one. I thought this was interesting and stop me if you've heard this before, but have you ever heard of the It's called the Pria calendar inscription. Looks like this. >> Show the camera right there. >> So, you can look it up. It's on Wikipedia. >> Bam. >> Um, but I was doing some research before we got on here and I just thought, >> did you spell that? You said >> Yeah, it's it's it's P R I E N E. >> Okay. >> The I think it's called PNA calendar inscription. Long story short, um this was made in 9 BC. So think right before you know Christ came on the scene in pri uh which is in Asia Minor. Uh, and basically what this says, and you can look it up specifically, but this is kind of a a gist, is providence has set in most perfect order by giving us Augustus whom she filled with virtue that he might benefit humankind, sending him as a savior that he might end war. And since the birthday of the god Augustus was the beginning of the good tidings, which is the same word as the gospel, the good news. And so before the gospel was a Christian word, it was an imperial propaganda word to preach a different gospel was to challenge the legitimacy of the empire. So when you think about this in in the context of Rome, think about what Paul was doing with kind of another layer, taking something that they had been exposed to that they were to adhere to because I guess he tried to reset the calendar by him because he came in and and stopped war and all that. But the reality is that Paul took it and converted it from their language into peace with God and the real good news and then the calendar actually got based on Christ. >> That's crazy. It's kind of like what he did at Mars Hill, >> you know, and he's doing it here >> in Rome. >> Yeah. >> Awesome. >> Well, I think >> it's interesting. >> So, even going back to to verse one. Um so talking about who we are in Christ you know have been justified I think is is important here since we have been justified. So the MacArthur commentary pointed out that it's a one-time legal declaration with continuing results. >> So one thing that people will look at for you know the things we based on Christ or things we base on the Bible is these are ongoing continuous things that we're not even they're just part of our everyday life. It's just like what you were saying like it's just it's just water to a fish. like it's just it's just the environment that you're in. But I do think that it's important to our our entire discussion when we've been talking about grace and grace through faith and the you know active and passive agents. But the fact that this is a one-time legal declaration but that the results are continuing that are ongoing. >> You know that can get get us into where whether or not someone can be saved and then lose their salvation and then like okay can you know can God lose can Jesus lose one of his sheep? like is that even possible that you could be taken out of his grip? Well, according to scripture, like no, like that's that's not really a real thing. But, um, I think that's an important thing for the first part. I mean, getting into verse five, like every single one of these verses is just pregnant with Yeah. with different means. >> I mean, I guess just on that point, do we all agree that you you you can't lose salvation? >> I would agree with that. >> Oh, y'all are going to talk about it. >> Lose. Yeah. I mean, like I think it a lot of it just depends on like how we're describing the words. um uh to lose um to reject to walk away. >> Lose the implication is that you had it at some point. >> Yeah. Or or lose uh lose also being the implication that it was that it's done passively like that is a whoops that slipped out of my hands. You know, that that um I lost it somewhere. You know, I didn't realize when and where. um versus scriptures that talk about the idea of um some things along those lines. Like I always go back to James has a scripture in it that I think was really tough for me at one point where it talked about that the blood of Christ can't be um can't be shed twice, you know, and so that idea brought that up. Yeah. That this can't be redone. Uh but then there's those of us that have lived our Christian lives um kind of in two sides or or maybe even more than that that it sure did feel like um you were lost at that time. But then again, that goes back to the sovereignty of God to know that like I'm living in this timeline that things seem very structurally based off of like when I'm when I'm in this moment. But in God's forbearance, he knows all. He knows the end and he knows where my salvation is. >> When a lot of Christians think if I don't have a story, if I don't have a date, I was at this camp on this date and it was this night at this moment that they received salvation. But if we're trying to evaluate it, you know, even the red letter Christians are going to have to agree with what I'm just about to read because I was just uh reading through this section as I was preparing a daily blade. Uh John 10 uh starting in verse 27. My this is Jesus. My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal life and they will never perish and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My father has given them to me is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of the father's hand. So he is saying he's basically addressing directly twothirds of of the trinity. The the triune nature of God that nobody can snatch a sheep out of his hand, Jesus who's talking or his father's hand, which is God. And so the only thing comes is whenever you see someone that goes apostate, right? So maybe they were a pastor, maybe they were a believer, and then they're like, "Well, I don't believe any of that anymore." The argument kind of has to be perhaps they never were a believer. They were just doing Christian things, right? They were praying. They were going to Sunday service. They were going to conferences or camps or something like that. But they had never pushued or put their faith into the reality that when Jesus died on a cross that accounted for them. They would even probably say that yes, I agree that Jesus did die and was resurrected, but they don't believe in that for themselves. How do they get that belief? It's imputed to them. And I don't want to get too much farther out from that, but I >> I think there would be some that fall in that category that it's easy to say that about them, but that um experientially they may not feel that that was the situation. And so that's where like you come into you come in. So like I I've heard and I there's some caveats to this but like Judas for instance um we have to make some leaps as into referencing um his disbelief into some different things. Um and I've heard it said well that was before the death and resurrection of Christ. So how that plays into it. So I mean what's your thoughts on Judas and and Jesus obviously not wanting him because he at one point says I'll pray for you. Right. That was a big deal with the chosen and how they how they portrayed that and some stuff like that. So I mean what do you think about >> Well, I think the tacid assumption with Judas is that he was a fall a believer in Jesus and then he was basically enticed by his own greed to fall away. Jesus even said it'd be you know it would have been better that you had never been born ends up killing himself. Like all those types of things. I don't think there's any evidence, and it wasn't until I really started thinking about this, I don't think there's any evidence that he was a believer in Jesus ever. >> Yeah, >> he was a follower in that he literally physically followed the guy around. But it became clear that he was following him around for financial gain, for uh you know, u elevation of his own personal self, his persona, those types of things. But I don't think that you could say at any point that he was truly an apostle of Jesus or a follower of Jesus. And so the fact that he betrayed Jesus and is now, you know, residing in hell for all of eternity, it's it's actually more of a straight line than you would think. >> What about the scripture that says, you know, if a brother falls away and you bring him back that you have um you know what scripture I'm talking about? Can you help me out here? >> I think the context of that is is not falling away salvation, but like a sinful nature, >> right? They were they were on the straight and narrow and then they so we've brought up in the last few weeks Carl Lynn, Steve Lawson, those types of people. >> I you know I'm sure there are people out there that would say that those guys aren't even saved. I think it's clear that those those guys have put their faith in in Christ, but my gosh, they veered off the path like to an extreme degree. Philip Pansy, like all those types of guys, they veered off the path, but yeah, they didn't like lose their faith. >> So, do we think James is addressing an issue that is never an issue? >> No. But you've got and then I'll I've got something I want to follow up directly with. >> No, go ahead. >> Well, I was just gonna say using my personal experience. I think last episode, Kyle, we talked about how long have you been, you know, have you had faith and all that kind of thing. And for me, it's been, you know, around five years. That's that's what I say. But the reality is I, you know, I grew up with Christian influence and Christian culture and all those things. I went to church. I was reading CS Lewis in high school and trying to evangelize people and all sorts of things. Yeah. You know, I've been around it, known about it for a long time. But then I went off and lived a life, you know, through college and professional career and travel and all that stuff. And the one thing I can say is I always felt a resistance to giving my life to Christ and what I perceived as the required change in my behavior and other things as a result. There was not a surrender per se. And then when we were married uh with and then um uh getting ready to have our first child, we went on a little trip and I remember reading the New Testament for the first time by myself as we were taking this road trip. I remember it very clearly and encountering Christ and what he said. And in my mind, I'm thinking, this guy is hard as nails. That was my thought. And that kind of set some things up where it's like, wow, this is different. It's not what I expected. It's not what I've learned. I'm reading it for myself. and it became alive. From there, it took a significant amount of time, many years, and many circumstances before I made this decision that I was going to give my life to Christ. And one of the things that also scared me was having to get baptized in front of a bunch of people in a previous church. I just didn't feel good about it. I was kind of being pressured to do it. And um long story short, after I eventually did, it was a very genuine thing that occurred. And since then I've had many people in my life that have come and talked about this unsolicited. What happened to you? What there's a lot of changes and how does this work and it seems like you're leading your family and you know you know about this kind of thing and it the fruit came as a result. So if you were to look at me before that I would tell you yes I'm a Christian. Um but I I don't know that I would have known the difference. But, you know, looking at it now, I did know that I was holding something back >> and that thing was the thing ultimately that I think saved me. >> Mhm. >> So, however that, you know, flows in this context, I think there's plenty of people who maybe think that they are or maybe they flagrantly know that they're not, but I do think once it happens and it's real, there's no going back. God doesn't make a mistake. Mhm. >> When I think what you're talking about is what we've heard Matt Chandler talk about at this table, if you listen to a sermon contents, >> the hardest thing about doing ministry work in Dallas is convincing people that they're not actually Christians. >> Yeah. Right. >> Because you're talking to someone who's gone to church for decades. >> They've been baptized. They've gone to conferences. They've cried during worship sets. Right. >> But they've they have no saving faith in their life, right? I mean, Ryan, you've talked about this at Nause with yourself. >> If you go back to 2015 and you ask me and try to tell me I'm not a Christian, I'm going to laugh in your face and be like, "Look at all the good things I've done. Christ is in me." >> Yeah. >> You know, but like that's that's not what it was. Like I had to be completely torn down >> because like if you can't if you can't see why you're in need of a savior, >> y >> there's something wrong, you know? And like that's the thing. It's like that's where we have to understand and that's what Paul's trying to drive home here is like you're in need of a savior. This is why original sin, your own sin, selfishness, you've got to give it up. You've got to give it up and put your faith in Christ. >> I'll I'll add one thing to that just just to say this. I agree with you. The whole thing about tearing somebody down, that's one other element of the walk that I went on is God puts you in a place regardless of what external circumstances look like. >> Yeah. >> Where he's saying, "Now's the time." >> Well, the the thing is too, when I use the word tear down, it's not my job >> Yeah. >> to tear a non-believer down. >> No. >> The non-believer sees their need for Christ and or God opens their eyes to it >> and God tears them down and to why they need it. It's just like, "Hey, man." >> Right? That's the argument for hey church is for church people. Anyway, but what were you say Russ? >> To try to put my story into that classification. So to this is this is where I get where I I feel like I have to try to make my story fit into that. Um and to try to do that what I have to say is that there in the journey towards Christ that there were moments that I didn't know where I was at in that journey. So like my journey towards Christ, it would be different than what you're describing to where um I had a true true faith and true belief and uh I even look back at that now and I I I look back at those that time with a fondness of my faith almost like a immaturity of it >> but it was it was not unreal just because it was when I say immature >> um it it didn't have the struggles of anything like it was so solid that it just didn't have the the rub. And so like I look at those times and that lasted me into college years. And then there were few few years in college that if I I really look back what I was struggling with is that logically uh I had inserted so much philosophy into my mind that um I describe it as basically I thought I knew the word and I what I thought I was doing was comparing what I knew of the word with different philosophies and then I was judging them and like going to compare and figure it out. But what I actually did is I shut the word of God for like three years basically and I went into this stuff. And by the time I was done with that, if I'm honest with myself, there was a period that I was truly truly unsure uh like if we talk about faith, like believing in I was unsure if I if what God was, who he was, what I actually believed, where those things were. And there was a rediscovery of my faith. Now, that can all fit into the same logic to say, well, like that was all part of my salvation and I accept that. Um, but someone who's going through that, >> uh, you may have listeners that feel like, man, I was I was a like serious believer and I was a believer and now I'm in this state right now that I feel unsure that it feels really awkward for somebody to tell them like, well, yeah, that wasn't real. Cuz I in my life, I would say that was real. the the period I went through was real and where I ended up on the outside of that on the backside of that is very real and probably a stronger faith and so I can count that all towards my faith. Um but it is kind of it's an interest wrestling to try to figure out okay so what would happen to me during that period where my my confidence in the one thing I'm confident is whenever I get to heaven especially with the James scripture and and having that turmoil of that period of time the only thing that I will rely on is my vocalization of the name of Christ and and and that is where like my only confidence is is that I will I will be saying the name of Christ and saying I'm I'm only here if he says if if he says that I'm one of his. >> Yeah. So that's Alistister Beg thing. It's like why are you here? Because the man on the middle cross said I could I could come. And if if you start any of your declarations with because I, >> right? It's not because I, it's because he. But what you're describing Russ as it seems to to me is that you're not describing a salvation process as much as you're describing a road on your sanctification journey. you like you you didn't even take a detour necessarily. You just went on the service road for a while. >> But to people that are in that uh position, >> feels different. >> It feels different and it almost feels like a tragedy that you can't recover from. That's what I remember. The first step, if if you're listening and you you found yourself in that, the first step of me getting back to that whenever we read about Abraham where God says, "Go take these animals and cut them." uh in half and he sits down and it says a great and powerful darkness fell on him and and you know Terry talks about like the idea that like was there an understanding to him of the depravity of like I'm about to enter into a covenant with God like how scary is that? And so like I would almost say that whenever I was in that that was my first the scariest point in there was the point that I thought I think this I think I was wrong. I think this is I think I've fooled myself. I think I've had blinders on. And then there's a real despair that comes on in that moment to not be sure how to get back out of this. And it feels like a mountain that you can't climb. And it really isn't a mountain that you climb as much as again you surrender to um to just letting the Lord carry you. And I remember whenever I opened my Bible after hearing Terry say some stuff, I'd hid this from my fiance at the time. I'd hidden it from myself, my family, everybody. And I remember that as things started uh becoming more and more enlightened to me. Um that I remember going through my Bible like I'd never seen it before, you know, and that was exciting to me. But I also I think I would I would be I would be manipulating myself to say that before then I really didn't have faith because I I know I know that I did. I know when my salvation uh progressed as a young kid for my understanding >> and I think your journey and and everybody's journey is different like because when I listen to your journey it sounds like you're wrestling. >> Mhm. >> You were wrestling at that point in my journey when I was baptized and was going to Life Church. Um I had a cheap grace like I'm like hey this is who I am my sinfulness and everything that I that I'm doing right now. This is just who I am and this is why Christ died for me. Like that's literally what I thought the death of Christ was. So I can be who I want to be >> and my sinfulness is who I am and that's why he died for me. Like there there's a there's a justific there's a I I don't want to use the wrong wrong terms here, but like there's a difference in in like hey man I'm I'm I'm scared to give this up. I'm wrestling with God on this. And there's and also hey man I'm saved so I can do whatever I want. And like when we look at modern Christianity and the seeker movement, like I watched a documentary on um Hillsong, Carl Lince's church up in New York City and uh half the pe like I would say almost 80% of the people that they had on there that was going to that church was living in a sinful lifestyle. And the reason they walked away and they're upset and they're mad at Carl Lent and they're mad at the church is because they no longer feel that they were uh their lifestyle was approved based upon what the church actually believes. So when you have that type of movement and and there's not a real disciplehip and a real coming of the spirit on people, you know, people are going to get hurt, you know, because they're not being led in the right way. And then they're we're going to die into our own sins cuz they they may, oh man, I felt the spirit. I I gave everything away, but now I can't be me. And they're trying to tell me I can't be me. And like that's when like when it came down to everything for me, it's like I had to take feeling out of everything because Jeremiah 17:9 says it the best. It's like, you know, the heart is the most corrupted of all things, you know? And so once I took my feeling out of it and put like a biblical definition on what what it is to be righteous and why I need Christ and everything like that, it showed me like, "Yeah, man. I'm depraved. I'm not a good person. Like it was it's really weird. >> Do you think about it like the one quick because I can tell you want to go is with the one thing that gets me is with kids. >> When you when you think about um like Linux always talks about being raised in the environment that he was raised in, you know, with in Ireland and all of that. He said, "My father encouraged me to read everything." >> Yeah. >> You know, the whether it was from communism or all the other faiths and when that became pressure tested, it was genuine. It was his faith. >> Yeah. >> And a lot of us are fortunate that, you know, we've gotten our kids into Christian private schools and things like that. And what I've heard from some of these parents that their kids move on is they've they've been in this millu for so long. It's hard to know if it's theirs or not. You know, you're grateful that the word of God has been pressed into their heart, >> but what I think about is very much trying to be there and have those conversations with them to give them the space to explore everything because in my personal walk, it was not genuine until it was my decision, right? And I feel like a lot of our society is going through that. So, this is a general comment about how do you raise your children in an environment where they're getting the word of God, but they're also getting the space needed because I'd argue that your faith became much stronger as a result of the struggle that you went through and God orchestrated that, right? >> I would say that the argument too is that there were portions of it became stronger. There are scars from >> Sure. >> from those times that I wouldn't wish on people I wouldn't wish on myself. I there's many times I wish I would go back to not having gone through that. So to your point, yeah, >> but Russ, go ahead. This this is absolutely applicable to what we're talking about. Read verses 3, four, and 5. >> Right. Yeah. I'm glad to get on this stuff. >> All right. Not only that, but we rejoice in our suffering, knowing that suffering produces endurance and endurance produces character and character produces hope and hope does not put us to shame because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has given who has been given to us. >> So passive agent, Holy Spirit has been given to us. We did not take it. Uh Holy Spirit has been given to us. Back to verse two. the hope described in verse two. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into the uh into this grace in which we stand and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Mac uh commentary pointed out that this hope is not like the English hope like oh I hope this happens. This is a hope without uncertainty. Okay, so it's a different hope because it's like I hope my team wins. I hope I get the job. You know, I hope this debt gets forgiven. That's not the the hope that's being described here. So then when we get into 3, four and five, we have to talk about the the sufferings. Okay. So what sufferings are we talking about here? The sufferings being talked about here are not the normal travails of life, right? This is not having to wake up early and having to, you know, grind at my job or not having to work the land or not having to, it's not the normal sufferings of life. This is specifically the suffering that is brought on by a life that is or by by uh being a disciple of Jesus by living the Christian life. It's those travailes that come. So it's not a normal uh kind of kind of pressure and kind of suffering. And so I look at what what you're describing with with what you're saying because again what you just talked about is coming out of that process. Uh, I forget the terminology that you used, but you said you you had some scars, but there was strength that came out of it. You had endurance overall, but like where did your hope cycle because I guess you could look at that whole thing as a cycle. You could probably draw that out, right? Your hope cycle, what did it begin with? Suffering. Because you were having a dark night of the soul, right? And the the thing that I love reminding people about with Psalm 23, the valley of the shadow of death. It's not. We think the point if you don't read it closely or if you just, you know, pay attention at Mardell or whatever Christian bookstore you're in, we think the point of that is that God delivers us from the valley. It's not the point. The point is that when you're in the valley, God is there with you, right? Because God is going to use that valley for his glory. And for all of us, we're either in the valley, coming out of the valley, or about to go into the valley. And so that's what I think about in the circumstances that that you went through. I could feel the darkness that you were describing, right? I I could like almost feel like I was there with you where the the amount of um emotional like data that was kind of going through your your nervous system in that moment had to be so substantial and you're sitting there the whole time without answers, right? What is that if not a dark night of the soul? The thing is though, again, it's a hope cycle, but it had to start somewhere, right? Well, and and two, like I I actually wrote this down, but I had it in my Bible as a note during that point is let me just read it. Our circumstance does not equal our standing. And that is something that like I do look back at that at that time and and can think through how that produced an endurance in me that maybe I know now um that my standing with the Lord is not based off of the circumstances of where I am. Like to your point about the the valley of the shadow of death. You're standing with the Lord in the valley of the shadow of death. Being in the valley of the shadow of death is not is the circumstance, but your standing is with the Lord. Whether you're in the valley or on the mountain >> and your placement in the valley or your geographical location in the valley is not indicative of whether or not you're having faith. That's the other thing that I think is very important because there are a lot of people that are think I am in a season of doubt right now. Does that mean I'm unfaithful? Those are not the same thing because seasons of doubt are incredibly important because what typically happens if you go into the season of doubt with intellectual honesty. >> You will challenge your presuppositions. Now, I'm not talking about deconstruction, right? you were challenging your presuppositions about wait a minute do I believe this or was I just growing up in this you know millu of Christianes and so I know how to say the words and and make pretend and again we live in East Edmond in Oklahoma right so there's a lot of make pretend going on with with people that at least have the language to make you think that they have this saving faith but when it gets down to brass tax and you strip everything else away there is nothing there >> well you walk away with hope >> and with through this you walk away with hope and one thing that RC Sproul said that I I wrote this down. The hope that it's you that he that uh Paul's using in here is Greek. It's Elpus and it means a radical hope that only God gives. So there again, only God gives you this radical hope to let you know that something's something's going to happen. And when he talks about faith and hope, faith is um see make sure I say this right, but he goes um Sproul said something that oh man, where were we at? in regards to okay Christian life faith uh looks at what has already taken place when we have faith we're looking at what has already taken place but with hope we look towards the future and so God gives us that hope towards the future he's like hey I've already paid the deed on the cross you're you're good now I have hope for the future and that radical hope is provided through him >> I I do like also where it says here the world I just had this in my notes the world would try to tell us uh that our hope is shameful like whenever I read that today in five it says and hope does not put us to shame and I read that I thought isn't that what the world tries to make us seem as silly you know whenever Christians talk about hope and faith and what we believe that the world tries to make it out to be our shame and so you have a lot of Christians now trying to analy politically explain everything and try to come up with um I I can give the perfect reasoning for stuff to where no one can can accuse me that I'm just hoping for this stuff to be true. But it actually says in in the word of God, it says that this hope will not put us to shame because in the end, the hope, the unexplainable, the things that we believe in will be shown to be true >> because it's a certain hope. That's where we can derive our our certainty. I think what Oh, go ahead. I >> I was just going to say culturally it seems like there's a shift that's coming, you know, because we've just gone through that period. I know this has been talked about a lot, but none of that other stuff seemed to work. >> And so now you're coming back to the the, you know, >> the obvious fact this required. There has to be something else beyond what we're seeing and hope is missionritical, I think, for life. >> Right. when again I I think we have to rewire our brains because even what I said earlier about hope that this isn't like the English hope this is hope with certainty right there there's no uncertainty in this hope none of us default to that right because we all have things that we hope happen right a few weeks ago we were talking about how you were so excited about the the Bears you know beating the Packers or whatever in the playoffs like you had hope before the game that that would be the outcome right but you had no certainty now >> and so this is one of those things in active agent, passive agent. If we have no u if we have no way of moving the interaction at all, we have no way of swaying it one way or the other, we can actually have certainty because when we put ourselves into the equation, uncertainty comes with us. >> But this is imputed going back to verse 4 or sorry uh Romans 4:4. uh but for ours also it will be counted. Right? Or back to verse 23. But the in but the words it was counted to him were not written for his sake alone but for ours also it will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead. Jesus our Lord who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification. The righteousness being described is perfect righteousness which is the only way that we get access to the father. And we do not access it actively. We access it passively. like that is exactly what this is saying and that you know carries over into the beginning of chapter 5 as well. >> So is the idea here that you're going through all of these really tough times but that you you always have the ability to have hope because God is walking through it with you and you will get through it either now or ultimately is that >> I think that's key iss now or ultimately. Yeah. Right. I think what it kind of brings me back to is I can't remember um there's a verse that's and I just don't want to mess it up but there's no condemnation in Christ Jesus >> and there now there is no now there is therefore no >> no no condemnation in Christ Jesus and so on yeah so the hope is Christ and that hope will not put us to shame and so when we're walking through these valleys and stuff like when I was walking through my valley of depravity there's a lot of condemnation I can feel when I think about about what I did in my past and everything. But I have to look at that as there's no shame in that. It's not condemnation. It's conviction. It's conviction to turn and sanctify me through what Christ wants me to be. So there's no shame in that valley because he's with us, but there's conviction in how we need to grow character- wise. And even to go like a a deeper level, I mean, I can think of one circumstance in my life that was so incredibly challenging that it it um you get to one of the darkest places imaginable. And hope becomes an incredibly valuable thing in those moments that I think we passingly read over when we read these scriptures if you don't focus on it for a minute. you know, how many countries out there and people that are getting persecuted and so forth, you know, hope is the thing keeping you alive. And so, it's just interesting how it comes back and it hammers it home because there's there's the situation you get into where that is the only thing that matters. >> Well, you brought up so we've talked about this a lot, but when you go back to Navy Seal training, uh, when they're going through BUDS, the So, I heard from some guys that were Navy Seal BUDS instructors. So these guys that had been Navy Seals, been deployed, but now they're instructors. So what they would do is they were doing Yeah. They were doing physical warfare on these guys, you know, trying to beat them down. It was all psychological warfare because the whole point is to get them to quit. >> Yeah. >> They don't want people to graduate. They want people to quit. >> And so the I think it's the first day of hell week where they know they're going to be up not getting any sleep, basically working out around the clock for day after day after day, they will put the guys in the beach, right? They'll they'll put them in the water. They'll have them sit down and they'll have them look out at the sun, the sunset, and they just make them sit there and stare at the sun because they know the moment the sun sets, they're about to get after it. And they said they had more people quit after months cuz you're doing buds for months before hell week. But for months, these guys would not quit, would not quit. They they did the push-ups, they got cold, wet, and sandy. They sugar cookie. They did all the stuff, but they could not deal with what was to come. But when you listen to guys accounts of uh how they made it through, it was always I think this was um Chris Kyle's thing was I just had to make it to the next meal because I knew they had to feed us three times a day. They had to like they were required. They could keep us from sleeping. They could keep us from resting. They could not keep us from eating. And so when you're sitting there dying in the middle of the morning, it's like I just got to make it to lunch. I got to make it to lunch. But going back to what you were just saying, Zach, as we wrap up here, there are a lot of people that don't know what it's like to pray to God, help me get to the next hour. >> And I can't fully encapsulate what has to happen to you for you to feel that way >> where it's just like I have to find a way to get hope to make it another hour. >> Because you hear people talk about, oh, I just got to make it another day. and you know rise and grind and oh it's just you know it's a week to week thing right now we're just kind of seeing there are people that it's hour by hour and they're trying to cling on to some bit of hope and it's because their certainty has been rocked but for the believer we have to know that there is certainty right as we see at the beginning of chapter 5 here where is this hope coming from it's coming from a place of certainty and so that's the thing for some of you guys you know exactly what I'm talking about you've been in an hourby- hour thing where you just really don't know what the next hour has in store for you. But for the believer, we do have ultimate hope. And I don't just mean of salvation. I mean of that next hour of God being able to give you the thing or the person or the circumstance that will sustain you and give you that energy that needs you to go, that next step while you're in the valley. Because again, he's not snapping his fingers and we're out of the valley. Could he do that? Absolutely. But what is he forging in that moment? Right? It's kind of, you know, it's can become a meme now on the internet, but when I talked about how most people use the the proverb about iron sharpening iron and that's how they describe their men's ministry, but that's not what it is. It's like two streams of lotion that are hitting one another. >> There's no forging happening with a lot of these people. They're just hanging out. >> And so that's the difference is when things are being forged, it has to be forged in a loud incendiary environment. Forging does not happen in a peaceful, quiet environment. It's impossible. And so if you are in that hourby hour thing, keep in mind you are being prepared for something and you don't know what it is. But God can't build anything until the foundation is there, until the scaffolding is there upon which things can be built. And so I think that's something that's very important uh for us to think about as well. But guys, we're going to leave our discussion there for today, but we're going to come back next week and we're going to get into Romans 5 starting in verse 6. Romans 5 starting in verse 6. But before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost at Undaunted Life. Our mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Don't forget about the Logos Undunted Life Study bundle and the forging table starter set with Crossway. You can check all that out in the show notes. And also, we're a donationbased ministry. So support us at undaunted.life/donate. Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five-star review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@unson.life. life. That's in nfo@ undontton.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www.undaton.life. And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is their song Perpetual, which is off their self-titled debut album on Faceown Records. The links are in the description. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the Lion of Judah.