[music] This is Undaunted [music] Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. >> Welcome back to the forging table. The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. At the forging table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience by digging into God's word. And we're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with us. That's Adam. That's Caleb. That's Howard. Went a little out of order this time. Um guys, we're only down to two salty balls. >> And I I grabbed the fanciest bowl that I could. I didn't even know I was going to be able to do this, but now I'm just going to be tempted to just just ding this thing. You >> sound like a train coming into the station. >> Can I tell you the truth? I'm [clears throat] not supposed to eat those because I'm on crazy dietary restrictions as you know and I How many >> How many have you had so far? >> I think I had four. So I think I've had 800,000 [laughter] calories. >> 800 800. >> You said it was like 250 220 220 I think is what I said. >> And those are the biggest balls I've seen here. So >> yeah. So they're salty. So um but I was going to say my stomach's feeling a little rumbly. >> That [laughter] feels all I can tell. >> This will be a short we need to swap sty. So, >> this will be the first seat swap live on air in history. >> I'm just letting you guys know that there could be an emergency run. >> Give me a little Just give me a little bubble. So, >> are we talking bubblegum [clears throat] or are we talking hot snakes? >> Um, you know, [laughter] it's Well, you never really know, right? You just let one fly and then you find out like, oh, >> no. You never if hot snakes is on the menu, you never just let her fly. >> Are you sure? I mean, I have before. >> Like, that's the easiest yes ever. >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh, we're going to find out probably in about 15 20 minutes. But I can tell uh I should not have find out. >> I should not have just like when we were hunting and I had a couple of those like >> the number of times you've had to sacrifice underwear and socks because you've had an attack, a gastrointestinal attack while in the woods. I've seen it happen in Colorado. I've seen it happen in Oklahoma. >> I forgot about the Colorado trip. So we're we're we're elk hunting in Colorado. It's like literally the biggest >> the biggest elk I've ever seen. We set up. and we say, "Oh, there's some milk up there." And I put out my spotting scope. I'm like, "Oh, dear lord." That's like a 370inch bull. No joke. >> Oh, wow. You just pooped your pants right there. [laughter] >> No gigant. We just pulled up. Like, guys are still He's only >> We don't even have >> He's only 400 yards away. 350 yards away. He's not far. And we're bow hunting. >> And And we're bow hunting. So, if we had a rifle, he would have been dead. >> And so, bow hunting. And And we've only got like 30 minutes of light left. And we're just unpacking. and he's moving towards some land that I don't own and I can't hunt and I'm trying to debate are we going to go after him are we not and I have to poop. I already have to poop. Like it's it's sort of at at problem but it's [laughter] at that point. It's close. It's but it's a 370 in bull. You poop your pants for >> How far away are [laughter] we from the cabin at this point? Cuz we're not right there. We're at the cabin. Oh no. We saw but we didn't we couldn't tell how big he was. >> Well, so no. So we were going for a walk cuz So we're at the cabin. and we're starting to unload and I think you're like, "Hey, let's just kind of go for a walk, see if we see anything." I mean, we're in jeans tennis shoes, >> but we had stopped short before the cabin. We saw some elk and then we go to the cabin and we're at the cabin. We're right there and we see him and that's when we're like, "Oh my gosh, that's a monster." And then and I start and then we start walking and we we start trying to go get ahead of them because we knew which way they were going. And so we go getting ahead of them and um they start going towards land that we can't own and we got to we can't hunt. We had like 175 yards, so like close enough that something might happen. We only had maybe 15 minutes of light left. And at that point, it was danger zone. Like absolute danger. I could poop at any point. [laughter] >> Tight cheeks and belly crawl. >> The wrong the wrong step and it was coming out and [laughter] and so >> like are we talking like turtle head or are we talking like >> m like problem? >> No, this is like electric eel, not turtle head. Like this is pro super problematic. So something happened. One of the cows started barking or something and they they I don't know if they sort of saw us but anyway they >> because we were walking in line with them so we weren't like side by side. We were trying to hide as much >> I knew I knew where they were going to be so I didn't want to push it that hard. Like I already felt like we' pushed it harder than we should and I wanted to back out in more ways than one. [laughter] >> Definitely shouldn't have pushed, >> right? Should not have pushed. Should not have pushed it. So anyway, we go back and like I send everybody back ahead of me and I trail in the back and sure enough I get about 200 yards from the cabin. I was like I can't. Nope, it's not holding anymore. Drop drop drop and it is go time. Right by the entrance to the cabin. And uh so what do you do? You sacrifice your underwear. And so that [laughter] that poor piece of underwear is still out there somewhere in Colorado. Not not only that piece of underwear, but you know, socks and >> and not long after that, he sells the property. Not without even the decency of going and retrieving the underwear. >> I did not [laughter] disclose that for sure. The new owner disclosure >> new owner probably happened upon that. You know what I mean? >> We need to get you some dude wipes for your day pouch then. So >> I usually carry those now. I have learned my lesson. I almost always have >> on that same trip cuz I I didn't really know you know that you know that was going to be a thing that was going to happen to you. And so I become increasingly aware of the issues of being that far away from the cabin and needing to go number two. And so I throw some like dude wipes in my or no no it was just a roll of toilet paper. I throw it in my pack. It's just in the bottom. It's you know dirty and whatever. And it's the last morning and we're going out and who was I with? It was me and >> Conway cuz you were hunting bear. >> No. Yeah. I was hunting bear because I had a rifle and a bear license, but at that time I didn't even own a bow so I'm not bow hunting. No. But it was me, you and another bow hunter. Who? >> Phil. Phil. >> No. >> Uh Dustin Davis. >> It was Dustin. Okay. >> So me, you and Dustin. and you've got like this cow decoy or whatever and then we're like there's a little bit of a valley in front of us and we're like in the woods and where I end up posting up cuz you're about 75 yards to our right >> and you're posted up there and then Dustin's posted up to get ready for a bow shot cuz if that elk had come towards the cow decoy then you're going to have a shot. But where I was, I couldn't see anything. >> So I was of assistance to no one on the mountain at that exact moment because I could not see an elk. I could not see a squirrel if it came out. That's how like bungled up I am. And it's early in the morning and we had gotten an early start. And you know, I'm normally a take care of business in the morning kind of guy. I don't need any coffee or all that. And I thought I had taken care of all my business, but apparently there was additional business to tend to. And if I had not had that roll of toilet paper, then it would have been a problem cuz then I'm sacrificing underwear at that point. And at that point, well, still now I'm wearing sacks. And so they're like $40 a pair. And so I'm probably going to be using the rest of my water for the day to probably clean out my underwear so I can like save these $40. Like we got to salvage this. But no, I just went a little bit further up into the woods and then kind of took care of it. But I was just like, "Oh man, that could have been deeply problematic." But then I was I was worried about ruining the hunt. And I what [clears throat] happened is maybe an hour or two later a goodsized bull came out looked at you looked at that decoy and I mean it wasn't scared away like it didn't know we were there but it just had no interest and it just kind of kept on going again. >> If it was a rifle no man not not where we were if if if this was rifle he is smoked and we are we're packing them out >> here. Let me tell you more like there are a few stories in someone's life as a hunter that cause problems in your soul. And [laughter] this bull, this bull is one of them. So, man, I literally, we set up early. Um, >> he's haunted Adam's dreams here. >> Satan. We're going to call him Satan is what it is. So, we we literally set up in the morning and I >> you you just envision things are going to go a certain way. And literally exactly what I hope I was thinking would happen happened. And this bull came up on the ridge. I had Dustin set up in front of me. I was 70 yards to the back. I had the decoy. He pulls up on top of the ridge. I'm like, "Oh, this is amazing." I start doing a little cal. He looks at me and he I I'm in the binoculars and he takes a step at me and I'm like, "We got him. We got him." And at this point he's 500 yards away, but I knew he was dead >> because everything was perfect. And he starts coming and he would stop 100 yards. I just give a little, you know, little little cow call. >> He comes in front of Dustin and he gets to like >> 65 70 yards in front of Dustin. So for me, he's 150 yards. And you know, normally they will hang up out in front of you, but not 150 yards away. >> He would not come that last 20 to 30 yards. And I have no idea why, but he did not wind us. The wind was perfect. Everything was good, >> but he knew something. I don't know how. I have no idea. He couldn't see. >> That's not too long of a shot for Dustin to take, right? >> A bow. With a bow. He was like 30 on your under 30. 30 is better. I mean, 40 40 is really a pretty good shot. Now, there's guys that I shoot out at 70 or 80 yard. Yes. There are some really good bow hunters, >> but I mean for for those bow hunters, these are guys that have mainly been hunting for decades. They may have an 80 or 90 pound bow. They they will practice out to 80, [clears throat] 90, 100 yards. And so they're confident with that shot, but Dustin, this was like his first or second bow hunt ever. He didn't have that that strong of a bow. And so it's like, and again, from that distance, the animal has a chance to duck your arrow. Like I've seen a white tail in Oklahoma duck my arrow from 40 yard away. That's just like you know if they're tuned up and then and if they're anywhere looking in your vicinity and all a sudden like cuz they can see it. It's it's moving. It's scooting. I mean I was shooting a crossbow in the at 40 yards and this this dough ducked it. And so the odds of this this bull even like ducking the arrow or something like were substantial at that distance but inside of 40 like it's going to be >> more reasonable. And he kept calling and he wouldn't come. No, he just he just [clears throat] I don't I still to this day I I cannot explain because normally as far away as he was cuz he was he was at an angle away from us and I saw him at the perfect time. I cow called he turned his head cow called again and his first step was right at us and was like boom I got him. This this bull is dead. Should have been dead. I don't I don't understand what happened. But even you know an elk's a much bigger target. So shooting a 70 80 yard. Now if you're pretty proficient that that's they're less likely to jump an arrow than a white tail. But still man even if you shoot all day every day >> that's a long shot. That's a really long shot. And for me >> especially when you're nervous this isn't like the target panic of you know you've got this big bull and you've been hunting for three or four days walking and you're you know you lost a toenail or two and now you're trying to calm your heart rate to make a super long hard shot. So you you you try you try to get them for sure within 40 and like man I I want them at 30 you know I feel like 30 that is an ethical shot 25 30 yards >> okay out to 40 past that it starts getting you know a lot of variables get but anyway thanks for bringing up the uh one of my worst experiences that I can remember because I had both of you guys with me. I felt like the guide to carry though in the story that 370inch bull we got on him three more times. We got within 100 yards of him and we almost had him. We were in his bedroom. >> We were right. We were in his bedroom and they were coming right at us and the wind freak I felt it. It hit the back of our necks. I remember looking and saying, "We're screwed." >> And sure enough, not 3 seconds later, >> those they were gone. And it just it sounded like a heard of freaking cows running away from us and they were right there. >> It would have been by far the biggest bull probably ever in my op in my life. I hunt over the counter, you know, public land. So 370inch bull, that is a monster. never going to see one like that again. So, and we were we got within a hundred yards of them on the next day that remember I said I didn't want to push them. That's why we found them and got on them and almost got it done. >> The only reason we even got to that story is because I was talking about these. So, you went diarrhea and then we made it all the way to the So, [clears throat] just like how you were late on that recording a few weeks ago and you could have made it through the road signs and all that. You're the one that set yourself up for failure on that one, Mr. Sir. >> I did. I have a tendency to do that. Well, I'm failure. Well, we're all depraved. We [clears throat] are depraved. That reminds me of I don't know why, but like you know, if you go hang out with a bunch of guys and you come home and your wife's like, "What'd you guys talk about?" >> Like, [laughter] well, >> you know, we talked about diarrhea and then uh salty balls and then hunting, >> right? >> Yeah. >> And it was all in one like a seveninut >> and then she's wishing she didn't ask. It's like, keep that in mind the next time I come home from hanging out with the guys. All right. It's probably not going to be worth you asking. But hey, before we start digging into Romans 4:9, did want to remind you guys have announced this for the last several weeks, but Logos, the best Bible software in the world, they approached me last year and they said, "Hey, would your guys would the guys in your audience be interested in like a study bundle?" And so we worked with them for a couple of months, a few months, and we were kind of working on this list. And so we made a Undaunted Life study bundle. So, if you go to logos.com/duntedlife, that's logos.com/undauntedlife, there's a package here that's got over 200 resources. So, there's Bibles, there's books, there's devotionals, there's courses, there's all kinds of stuff and huge names that you would all recognize. I'm going to read them in back order from the last time I did it. Jipacker, Paul David Trip, Doug Wilson, John Stop, Paul Washer, William Lane, Craig, Dietri Bonhofer, Matt Chandler, John MacArthur, RC Sproul, Charles Spurgeon, Vodie Bacham, a whole bunch, dozens and dozens more people. And here's the thing. If you have the Logos Bible software, you would be able to get all these digital resources individually. You could just buy them one by one. And if you were able to do that, and if you did do that, it would cost you $3,32187. Okay? Obviously, Logos did not approach me to sell you guys on something like that. That's probably like double a mortgage payment. Uh maybe more than that. And so, what they did is they put this entire bundle together, and we worked back and forth adding and taking stuff away. That entire bundle, over 200 resources, $3,000 plus dollars worth of stuff could be yours for $34949. And as we established a couple weeks ago, like, man, the reason we're pushing this hard is because the deal is so awesome. That's why I'm talking about it because I don't even know what Undaunted Life brings in per sale of one of these, but it's not a huge percentage. It's not going to cover uh the bills, [clears throat] but it's just such a great resource because that's almost $3,000 in savings. It's like 89% off of you buying that all on your own. And in [clears throat] previous weeks, I've gone through the list because it is commentaries, it's atlases, it's Bibles, it's Bible commentaries, Old Testament, New Testament, theology text, text textbooks, systematic theologies, there's uh language lexicons and grammar and dictionaries, and there's all kinds of stuff in there. So guys, if you're looking for something that will take you years to get through, it's something like this. Some of you guys are spending $350 for one night at the casino or that's like a month's worth of golf or some things like that. And it's okay. Have all your different hobbies. But man, this is enough resources for you to use for years and it will help you guide your wife to be the head of the household, to catechize your children, to disciple other people, to mentor other people. So go to logos.com/donedlife. logos.com/donnedlife. But today we're getting into Romans 4. And over the last few weeks, we've made our way through Romans 4. And we're going to start today in verses 9 and 10. So, Caleb, how about you hit that for us? [clears throat] Is this blessing then on the uncircum on the circumcised or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it credited? While he was circumcised or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. So when did Abraham have his faith? It was before he was circumcised. >> It was before the law. It was before Isaac. It was before Mount Mariah. It was before all of that. And so [clears throat] it was credited to him as righteousness because essentially what we're looking at here in the the Reformation Study Bible pointed this out. Abraham becomes the prototype for all believers here. Okay? This is pre-works, >> right? [clears throat] It wasn't okay and he was his faith was counted or imputed uh or his righteousness was counted or imputed or credited to him, but we got to make sure he follows through on on leaving his mother and father's house. We got to make sure he follows through on the promise made to him. We got to make sure he follows through on what was promised for Sarah. We got to make sure he follows through on the sacrifice of Isaac. We got to make sure he follows through on circumcision. We got to make sure he follows through. And then all that comports with the law that is coming at some point in the non-defined future. >> Nope. >> The moment [clears throat] he was faithful, it was counted to him as righteousness. And so if he's the prototype, Father Abraham is the prototype of all believers, uh then we have to kind of model our faith after his faith, do we not? >> Right. >> And remember a couple of weeks ago when I mentioned the picture of a prize fight, and we're still in a prize fight at the end of chapter 3, we're in a price fight between the Jew and the Gentile. And right now the the Jews been knocked down quite a bit. And and and Paul's got to get to the point to where he's he's got to say, "Look, this whether it's circumcised, i.e. Jew, or uncircumcised, Gentile, for both of them, the faith was for for we say the faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness." So remember, the Jew is sitting here saying like, "Wait a minute. Wait a minute. How in the world were our ancestors saved?" Because if if they were if they didn't have the law, then and now you're saying that it's through faith, you know, our ancestors didn't believe that. How are they how how do they how how could they possibly be saved? Well, it was counted to them as righteousness based on their faith. And so, they're no different than the Gentile in that way. So, he's he's trying to build them back up and say, "Look, you don't have to follow this law in order to get saved. It's not about your works." >> I thought it was interesting. It was 14 years later that he was circumcised. 14 years. >> Yeah. We got you got that from Genesis, right? Yeah. I wouldn't know. >> You would know. Not in the Bible. [laughter] >> But did you did any of you connect this to something other than just like circumcision? Like I I went to baptism. Like it's it's the same. It's just it's no different. Like okay, if circumcision doesn't matter, well then other things don't matter either. In a couple of the other weeks, we did talk about Kyle, you mentioned for a while, you know, different types of baptism and this is required and that's required. You could substitute circumcision for baptism here and say the same thing and I think it fits. >> Yeah. I mean, there's there's [clears throat] a lot of signs that God gives us, right? But it's there's a lot of also denominations that confuse the sign with the thing, you know? So I mean he gives us circumcision as the first one, baptism, um others that it's like don't confuse the sign for the thing is the thing you know if it's the town or you know a sign outside your house like you know at the end of your driveway or whatever it is. Um so I think that's something that a lot of denominations do. It was it's my wife recently got baptized and it was you know we live in Edund where there's a pretty strong uh Church of Christ >> contingent. So, it was so interesting to see the way that Church of Christ people like were excited for her >> versus the people that we go to church with. They're like, "Oh, that's cool." You know, like not not to diminish, not that people go to church with were diminishing it. Um they wanted to hear her story and everything, but um it was literally from our Church of Christ friends. They're like, >> "Welcome, you know, you're finally accepted." Exactly. Like we're, you know, you're a sister in Christ now. And it's like, well, no, I have been. Well, and that's what I so I' I've talked about before, but I was arguing with somebody that was a Church of Christ person and because they they were basically concerned they were trying to convert me to Church of Christism, not to Christianity. >> Okay. And so I'm like, "Okay, I'll play." Um, and so we we kind of started working through and you know, I heard their arguments and I did my normal, "Hey, if you were wrong about that, would you want me to tell you?" And they threw that same thing back in my face later on. Uh, and I was just like, "Yes, I would be shocked if you could show me biblical proof that grace does not come through faith, that it comes through works." And the best this person could muster, who's a smart person, who's very well-meaning, certainly is that [clears throat] uh, baptism is not a work. It is not a work. It's a command. I was like, "Okay, that I I don't see that at all, but okay." But then what I did cuz I I used the example of the thief on the cross which we brought up last week or the week before, >> right? I was like, "Okay, do we have any indication that he was taken down off the cross, dipped in water, full immersion, right? And then put back up." And her argument was, "Well, that was preosspel." I was like, "What do you mean?" He's like, "Well, G Jesus hadn't died yet." And so the the gospel had not been, you know, the Old Testament, the law had not been completed. propitiation of the sin debts of the elector or whatever had not been done yet. So, you can't use that as an example. And I said, "Okay, let's change the scenario then." And I've said this on the show before. We get new new viewers and listeners every week. Thankful for y'all. I said, "Okay, great. Let's say you and I are hanging out and then we walk next door and we share Christ with my next door neighbor." Okay? And regardless of your theological persuasion, somehow there's an indication that he is ready to go Christian, right? whether he decided or whether the Holy Spirit made him, you know, was irresistible or he chose it, whatever, you know, however that works out. And then we both go, "Great. This is fantastic. Great news. Hey, man, hop in the truck. We need to go to the nearest church of Christ because they apparently have the best, most holy water, and we're going to get you baptized now. We're going right now. Like, drop, drop your stuff. You got to go." And then we get t-boned in an intersection, and all three of us die. And I asked this person, "So, do you and I get to go to heaven?" Because we had both been baptized in a Church of Christ because my first baptism was non-believers baptism, and that was in a church of Christ when I was in sixth grade. My second baptism was a believer's baptism at First Baptist West in Lton, Oklahoma as a 10th grader 4 years later. And then she stopped communicating with me. [clears throat] >> And so, because it in that scenario, she has to say that this my next door [clears throat] neighbor would be in hell. She has to. >> Mhm. >> Because it does not follow in any other any other way, shape, or form. And again, the only thing they're clinging to is that, well, baptism just isn't a work. It's a command. It's like, well, there are a lot of command commands. There are ten command amens, right? And so, are you saying the things that we do or don't do in in the commandments affect our our salvation? Because here's the other thing is like if they were say, so you don't think you should get baptized? I was like, of course, I wouldn't say that. Yes, we should be baptized. Like if you are a believer and you are not getting baptized, then you are I think there's an argument that you're living in sinful rebellion. >> I was going to see what you guys thought. >> I think you're living in sinful rebellion because it's the first command >> you are told to do is to hey, show publicly that you have now declared your faith in Christ. Show that publicly. And if you go weeks, months, years, and that's why I kind of, you know, I don't like, you know, even our church, they don't do baptism every week. It's on the calendar and it's three, four times a year, right? You know, Job's church does beach baptism. I I personally dunked, you know, 200 people last year and baptized them. And so, but it's like, do we put baptism on the calendar or do we do it now? So, that's a debate for another day. I want to kind of stick to the point, but I do find that deeply problematic because, you know, now I would ask that person now that I've dug into Romans 4, then what about Abraham? >> It said his, you know, his righteousness was imputed to him. >> It was given to him >> and he had done nothing. >> This was pre-law, >> right? He wasn't even circumcised yet, right? >> So, what do we do with that? And man, they just don't really have a hermeneutic for it. >> At at risk of this being an ignorant question, which I think is okay at the forging table. >> Yeah. >> What is the difference between believer's baptism and a non-believer baptism? >> So, one's dunking and one is a symbol of an internal reality. So, when I was in sixth grade, um my mom would force my sister and I, she would drag us to uh Church of Christ in law, Oklahoma. And you know, we would go in and I would always just hope my mom would sleep in. And I just hated going. It was just awful. And then I would go and that was my first experience of church. And as we're driving home one Sunday, my mom goes, "Well, you think it's about time you and your sister get baptized?" And at the time, again, whatever age you are in sixth grade, I don't know what age I would have been. I was thinking, "Man, I bet we'll get to go to Hardies afterwards." So I was like, "Yeah, [laughter] yeah, let's get baptized." >> And so they put me in a little robe and they put me up there and they dunk me in water and then I got me some Hardies afterwards, right? And I thought I was good to go. But it wasn't until, you know, a random Sunday night with a guest preacher at First Baptist West and lot in Oklahoma as a sophomore in high school that I was like, "Oh my gosh, I'm a wretched black-hearted sinner that needs Jesus to, you know, get my be my get out of jail, get out of hellfree card, right? That's how the Baptists approach it typically." >> And so I was like, "Oh yeah, that's me." So I stood up and I, you know, whatever. And then it was a week or two later I was getting baptized and it was like completely different experiences. And so believers baptism is no I actually believe this and the other is you just got dunked. And so that's the the fight also between you know Presbyterians and Baptists and all that because I think Presbyterians they do uh paptism which is infant baptism which is impossible to to have a have a consciousness of a saving faith because you might be baptizing a baby that is the member of the elect >> and then you might not but the baby cannot have a conscious >> declaration of a saving faith in Christ which is what the baptism is meant to symbolize. So the the point of my question the point of my question was that non-believers baptism to me feels like an oxymoron like that's it seems like not a thing. >> Am I wrong? >> I was going to say is there scripture for I don't know if I've ever heard scripture argument thinking it's probably just something we've come up with traditionally for ourselves. >> I think it's a little bit like the what we've talked about in weeks past with uh you know saying the prayer of whatever you know it's like okay you said a prayer that doesn't that doesn't save you. It's a true faith that saves you, right? It's a a faithless prayer, you know, versus like a true faith change. >> I feel like I need Jay Risner right now to explain this to me because it it does it's not computing in my head like non-believers baptism. I suppose maybe that's like getting sprinkled or someone who who's not of age yet, I guess, or >> to me it just goes back to how we continually over history have created more and more things, whether it's legalism to you need to do this step or you need to have this. It's it's one more thing that we think we need to have as a part of being to get right with God, right? We think we need this. >> It was interesting. I was listening to a sermon kind of talk about this and it was a John MacArthur lesson and he gave an example and I'm going to butcher this, but it's called the Ganja Desara. It's a major Hindu festival dedicated to the descent of the of the river Ganja to Earth. And you ought to go online and look at this. But these people flood to this place. There's a there's a daily thing that goes on there, but then there's two two festivals uh a year that that happen. And people flood to the the water edge. I mean, mil literally millions of people. And it's not as much today as it was at one time, but people would uh they said they would take swords and cut their tongues open. They said they would they would u they would tie an arm or a limb into a certain place to um as a dedication like hey I'm doing this to to get right with with this this God right and so they feel like when they touch this water then they're washed clean right and so all of these different rituals to make them right and all of these acts and so it's just like do we do that in in our own culture in our own way that like hey we have to do all these little things to feel right with God when at the end of the day this circumcision it's at the end of the day it's a symbol >> right it's it's a cutting away of that old self but we we just feel like we have to do these things in order to get right and you know whether we go to far extent or it's something small I mean >> Mhm. Well, I think that um dubtales Howard nicely into let's just let's do u verses 11 and 12. So Howard read 11 and 12 and then we'll we'll park in 9 through 12 for today. >> Okay. He it says uh he received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness could be counted to them as well. And to make him the father of the circumcised, who are not merely circumcised, but who also walk in the footsteps of the of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. the emphasis on before he was circumcised, before he was circumcised, before he had done anything, >> you know, verse 11, circumcision as a seal of righteousness. Okay, >> so in the Old Testament, what or during the Old Testament period before Jesus, what would a a seal of righteousness look like? Okay, circumcision. Okay, now you get to in the New Testament, baptism would be a sign of the seal. Correct? Again, I find it very difficult the the the pretzels that you have to like twist yourself into to find a hermeneutic that explains baptism as essential for salvation, but also to remove it from the list of works is like I I just find that very very hard. I I just can't imagine how how someone could could do that uh with intellectual honesty, which is not saying, "Hey, I'm smart, they're dumb." It's just like the their read I don't think is is is possible, right? And again, it goes back back to this is like even in this letter, we look at circumcision as a sign, right? It's a seal. It's it's a it's a symbol of something else, right? It's not the act that does the saving. How can we know that? This entire line of argumentation that started in 41. Okay? Why would he even bring Abra Abraham into this? perhaps because he understood his audience and that they would know Father Abraham. And then the same thing would be true about baptism being a seal for those that are in the new covenant, right? I think it's all it's certainly all attached. >> Did did any of you guys remember the I can't remember which morning it was, but it was uh one of our sea scrolls. He talks about the seal of the signate ring of a king when he's pushing it down into the wax and he seals it with a pro that's his seal of a promise. And I thought that was a really good analogy of, you know, we're sealed into this promise that that he's given us and into his kingdom. So, I thought that was really cool how he put that, >> right? I like these verses, too, because he's, you know, he's talking to the church, right, where I don't know how long maybe you guys know, uh, the Jews had been back, right, from their exile. Um, but nonetheless, I mean, he's kind of he's making the point that you're all the same, >> you know, in the in the in God's eyes, right? Uh so you know just to kind of hammer that home like from four through maybe nine he's obviously appealing to the Jews talking about Abraham and but then he's like no he's the father of both. >> Yep. >> He's the father of both of y'all. >> I also got I like I think Paul Paul's so genius in this whole this whole chapter from the beginning to the end trying to head off what the Jews are going to think and what the Gentiles are going to think. And then he goes at the end and I think this is important. I can hear Pastor Mark Hitchcock from our church, Faith Bible Church, saying this every time we see the word but. Like but is an important word. And so we get to the last verse. >> And and where I think we were going is Paul is like making everybody feel good. Like he he is the savior of all. He's the savior of the Jew and the savior of the Gentile. And so, you know, birds are chirping, the sun is out, everything is happy. But here's an important part. But who also walk in the footsteps of faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. But that's an important thing. I can hear Mark saying that. But who also walk in the footsteps. And I think that part is important because I've always got a concern about, you know, universalism and and the feeling in some modern day churches where it's like anybody and everybody come as you are. As true as that may be, the gospel is also true. And we must hang on the truth. And it still has to be it's it's not for everybody. That doesn't mean just it is for everybody. That's not what I mean. Save me here. What am I trying to say? I'm trying to say that at at the um >> it is for everybody, but it doesn't mean that all paths lead to heaven, right? And so it is Jew and it is Gentile, but it's for those who walk in the footsteps of faith. It doesn't mean you can be uh you know Hindu and Muslim and all of these other religions that that doesn't follow. So basically what a lot of so even I think Bara this is Barner or Pew did a a research study of what evangelicals in America believe and it was a plurality of evangelicals self-proclaimed evangelicals that think there are multiple paths to God. >> Right. Yeah. >> Okay. Um Jesus wouldn't agree with that. Right. his his words wouldn't even we don't even have to look at his actions on the cross to to prove that because when he said he is the way, the truth, and the life and the only way to the father is through him. What do you think he meant? >> Did he me or anyone else? >> Yeah. Me or kind of whatever. And so you have Yeah. you know, we can get to God, you know, Hinduism, Buddhism, you know, we can, you know, align our chakra and we can, you know, do some different things and we can follow the the tenants of Islam and follow the hadith and like, you know, we can all basically get there. It's just different pathways um to the same destination. And the issue is is the only religion in the world that as Cayla pointed out uh weeks ago that doesn't look at your uh your >> ledger. Thank you. That doesn't look at your ledger is Christianity. >> Cuz it's like, oh, I don't care what's on the back of your baseball card with Christ or not. >> Right. It goes back to uh I'll leave him nameless because he was he said some dumb things, but one of the best things that I've seen I'll just say it als one of the greatest things I've ever seen from any sermon is the thief on the cross. He's like I wonder what that was like when he got to heaven and you know this is probably not how it works but you know you're at the check-in desk at heaven right and they're like all right making sure your name's on the list blah blah blah and they're trying to like all right well so so uh why are you here? Like why should we let you in? And you know, the guy's like, you know, the man on the middle cross said I could come. >> Yeah. >> Literally all he could say. >> Holy Moses. It's like, and that's all you need to say. >> Because, and I think Aler, I'm trying to remember, but he's like, if if you start any of your sentences, because I, >> because I followed the law, because I kept the law, because I kept the Sabbath, because I shared the gospel, because I, because I, because I He's like, "No, no, no. Because he because he did the saving work." and faith was given to me via the Holy Spirit somehow that I can't fully explain or elucidate. >> That's why I'm here. That's why you should let me in. And that's why you're going to you're going to let Excuse me, sir. Give me give me my house key, right? And you know, let me get to my golden driveway. >> And so that's >> that's the thing is when you have this universalist idea, it's it's the same thing that at the end of last year, Kirk Cameron came out and was talking kind of about how he's leaning more towards annihilationism. So long story short, he does not he no longer believes in the conscious eternal torment of hell >> because he thinks the torment of hell, if it even exists at all, will eventually be consumed. That God's anger and wrath will run its course and those that are suffering in hell will suffer no more. And so as many people have pointed out with Kirk Cameron, okay, you start with annihilationism, >> then you get to universalism >> and then you deconstruct. >> Yes. >> Right. Because you know, conscious eternal torment, man, God is just a meanie mean pants. Like what what is wrong with him? And then you go, well, I guess everybody gets to heaven. And then it's like, well, if everybody gets there, then what do we need all this for? Exactly. >> Like what was what do we need? Why are we studying this? Why are we even looking at what it means if we all just get there anyway? Right. Yeah. It's foolish at that point. >> Does he have the same opinion on heaven then? Like if like does annihilationism mean that heaven ends at some point or >> I think >> I don't know. Interesting to see. >> I think proponents of annihilationist view and if I'm wrong about this I will correct the record later. But I think what they what they think is hell is a temporary state. So I don't think that that means that people that are in hell will eventually get their free access card. It's like all right well we had to burn you a little bit but nah come on into heaven right? It's pretty awesome up here. Uh you you're in the crappy section of heaven. You're in the ghetto of heaven. But hey, you at least get to be here. So you're satisfied even in the ghetto of heaven. I think that that those people their their view is that the torment of hell just ends. >> Okay. >> Right. So at some point that I'm not sure of that it just flat out ends. Those people those souls do not go on to heaven. They just cease. >> I've spent a very limited time thinking through this, but the word that Kyle mentioned was, you know, deconstructs. it the more you think about it I feel like it falls apart on itself and it's like if that is true well then more cards start falling apart and like you went down the same road that I've been down before I was like well if that's true you know I get concerned just like I was concerned at the end of this and I think Paul was also which is why he he caved it with but who also walk in the footsteps of faith universalism is always a concern if if hell is the torment is not forever as we've been I think warned in scripture that it is Then are we going to have eternity in heaven? Cuz like if the eternity of hell is not true, why would the eternity of heaven be true? >> Doesn't it say eternal torment in scripture? >> Yeah, I I I believe so. I don't >> I'm sure he has some reason and I can't speak for him on why he believes that, but I have uh looked into it some and I I have a problem with the deconstructionism part of it because it seems like, okay, well, let's go down that road. the road as you continue to follow it seems to go down a path that doesn't make sense to me. >> And I don't know about any of you guys who hit the table, but I don't want to go to hell at all. Even if it is for a short period, right? >> Oh, yeah. That would be ideal. I would prefer I would >> just go to heaven. >> Yeah. So, let me read a summary here that I think is probably helpful. Hopefully, it's correct. Um, annihilationism is often called conditional immorality. It teaches that God alone is inherently immortal. Human souls are not naturally immortal. The wicked experience judgment and punishment, often understood as conscious suffering. After judgment, the wicked are destroyed, cease to exist, or enter a state of non-conciousness. In this view, hell does not consist of eternal conscious torment, but ends in destruction and eternal consequences. So, some biblical texts that they would use to support 1 Timothy 6:16, who alone has immortality, referring to God, who dwells in unapproachable light. Soi annihilation annihilationists argue that immortality is not inherent to the human soul but is granted to God alone. >> And then they say that the wicked are said to be destroyed. Matthew 10:28, "Fear him who can destroy the soul and body in hell." Psalm 37:20, "But the wicked will perish. They vanish like smoke. They vanish away." Malachi 4:1-3, there's a portion of it here. All the arrogant and evildoers will be will be stubble, leaving them neither root nor branch. So they interpret these passages as total destruction total destruction. So not eternal survival. >> Um and then it continues it continues on. There's a lot of kind of explanations about the do we have consciousness? Does consciousness persist and all that but that kind of gives you a little bit of an overview of the position. But again, it's like, you know, annihilationism is the the, you know, gateway drug >> of deconstruction. Yeah. Right. Because most people don't go from, >> you know, because if you think about it, >> people either they believe in one of two miracles, right? That Jesus was born of a virgin or that the entire universe had a virgin birth. Yes. >> Right. Time, space, and matter had a timeless, spaceless, and material beginning. So, everyone be believes in a virgin birth. It's just which one. >> Yeah. And so I don't think people go from virgin birth of Mary to virgin birth like straight to the universe. It's kind of this slow, >> you know, down the primrose path to hell kind of thing. >> It's funny you mentioned that. I've probably maybe I've heard this before, but this actually happened. I haven't told you this yet before, Kyle, but I was I was on a hunting trip and I was with I was with my guide in the middle of nowhere and we started talking about religion and he said he was a Christian, but he said, you know, really the big thing that I struggle with is the virgin birth. And he's like, I just can't get there. And I don't know why it just popped in my head, but you just reminded me and I said, "It's funny to me that you have a hard time with the virgin birth because where do you think we came from?" And I went to creation and I went back to creation. And he's like, "Well, what do you mean?" And I was like, "Well, do you think we were just gobs of goop that all of a sudden got put together or did was God's hand a part of our creation?" And he immediately conceded. He's like, "Oh, well, no. I think >> I think God, you know, created the universe. I I definitely think that that happened." And I was like, "So, >> I have a hard time understanding if you think that miracle happened, >> why couldn't um someone be, you know, born from a virgin?" And it was, it was really neat to see his mind kind of flip on that cuz I could tell that's been something he's stumbled on for a long time. And if they can go back to creation and and they've already checked that off of like, "Yeah, that's probably the most reasonable thing." >> It naturally goes to, "Well, there could be other amazing things that happen." Or how do you not mention the resurrection in the same breath? You know, it's like believe in the resurrection but not the virgin birth. >> The virgin birth was and you know, not to not to rain on him at all. There's, you know, people struggle with different things, but that was >> his one big personal stumbling block in being able to move further and to and to fully believe. And um I just, you know, found it interesting that if if that was the thing, well, then how did creation happen? You know, that's that's a bigger miracle. >> It's interesting along the same lines. I was reading Advent for RC Sprouls kind of talking about Mary and it said when the angel visited Mary and said that you will be with child, she said, "I am willing uh to be used by the Lord." But it's like she was taken back by this idea of a virgin birth, right? And she had to believe in this promise that was coming. And I thought it was interesting. It was very similar to Abraham. She believed in this promise just as Abraham did, right? This miracle. So for Abraham, a hundred-y old man, to think that I'm going to have a son >> and he's going to be the father of many nations is that's a miracle, right? And the same thing with Mary, but we don't take that to Abraham. That's a miracle for a hundred-y old man to have a kid. >> Yeah. >> It said he was 100 and Sarah was in her 90s. >> In her 90s. Yeah. So, it's just like these two amazing people of faith that believed in this promise of what the Lord would do through them. >> Well, and Adam, I think it's [clears throat] important even going back to your point. Um, we have to be we have to stand ready to give an apology, >> you know, argument for our faith that we have. >> And when you start getting into, I mean, very few people have a scientific brain, but when you start getting into science and creationism and and biology and evolution, people are like, shoot, they're going to ask me about dinosaurs. Dad gum it. I haven't been to that big boat in Kentucky. I'm not going to be able to explain myself. >> And then Yeah. And so like they they don't know what to say. But you don't have to be able to answer all the questions. You just have to be able to ask one. >> Mhm. >> Because again, I tell people and I try to train people all the time, it's not the answerer of the question that's in power. It's the asker. Mhm. >> Because even if you answer the question you want to answer and not the question I asked, I automatically put you in a weird position because if somebody's watching this interaction, I asked a question that you didn't answer. So even if they liked your answer, it wasn't the answer to the question that was asked. So the power comes back to me. >> It actually never left me, right? You got to talk, but it's my power. And so if someone's wanting to ask a bunch of questions, I'm like, "Yeah, I mean there there's some of that stuff that's that's a mystery, but it's like where did time, space, and matter happen?" >> Mhm. Right. where like how >> okay because and then you know you can work your way through that and then you can just repeat someone's response back to them. So it's like okay so you think that we are now humans but that we used to be uh chimps and somehow those chimps evolved from fish and somehow those fish evolved from goo and somehow that goo evolved from stardust and all of that came into existence from >> what? Right. Right. >> From >> Okay. So, you say there was a big bang. >> How? >> I also agree with the bang. >> Agree. >> I just think there's a banger. >> Yes. >> And so, it's like, >> you know, that that that if there's a big bang, there has to be a big banger. >> Agreed. >> Because it's violative of all the standards and structures of science. First of all, we can't test or uh do in a lab uh creation, right? M. So, we're all guessing, right? But if if there are not the things to make, cuz I mean, you can go to the periodic table and say what everything is made of, right? How many molecules of this, molecules of that to combine to make whatever, water, this table, like something like that, >> but you can't explain where the materials came from. And so, you believe in a miracle >> that everything came from nothing. Yeah. >> Now, if that's your worldview, just own it because you know how it sounds. [clears throat] Sounds preposterous. I know how a virgin birth sounds. Sounds preposterous. I know how how a resurrection sounds. It sounds preposterous. Just of all the available explanations that I'm going to stake my life on, that's the one that I think is the least preposterous. >> So, uh, anything else on this section of scripture before we close it up, >> fellas? Sweet baby James is so thankful to you guys because daddy gets to go to his basketball game. I am not missing his first two games, just his first one. So very thankful for you guys. Uh thanks for uh going through all this. We went through in the last month we were uh Romans 1 or Romans 4:1 through Romans 4:12. So guys, come back here next week where we will hop into Romans 4:13. But before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost at Undaunted Life. Our mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Do not forget about the Undaunted Life study bundle through Logos. logos.com/unedlife. That's in the show notes. lg os.com/adonal life. We should come up with a jingle. Howard, make that happen. All right. And then uh also we are a donationbased ministry. So if you're wondering how we have the electricity, I have all these lights running and the cameras and all those different things. We don't have like secret donors in the Middle East that are cutting us huge checks or anything like that. We got individual. [laughter] Did I get you with that one? I got myself with that one. We just have individual guys hopping on board. 10 bucks a month, 50 bucks a month, 100 bucks a month to support the work of equipping men around the globe to push back darkness. Dant.life/donate. Check it out in the show notes. Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five-star review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@unton.life. That's info@undanton.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook. and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www.undauntton.life. And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is their song Perpetual, which is off their self-titled debut album on Faceown Records. The links are in the description. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the Lion of Judah. >> [music] [music]