[music] This is Undaunted [music] Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. >> Welcome back to the forging table. The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. At the forging table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience by digging into God's word. And we're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with us. That's Adam. That's Howard. That's Caleb. So, did want to remind you guys. So, if you did not listen last week, we have been working with Logos for a long time. Best Bible software on planet Earth. Super powerful. If you use it on your desktop, laptop, iPad, phone, it works out really, really well. But there's a bunch of stuff that you can purchase inside of the app. And so Logos approached me about doing an Undaunted Life study bundle. And long story short, I told the long version of the story last week, but we created a bundle just for you guys. You can check it out at logos.com/undauntedife. logos.com/unedlife or just go to the show notes and check it out. Where's it at, Caleb? >> logos.com/undoned life. >> I thought you were just going to say show notes. I thought you were going to lead you up, but only I guess only Ryan Horn is good at call and response cuz he's kind of like a dog. wasn't even listening to you. >> Yeah, you know, it's fine. But you kind of mumbled your way through it. It works out great. But guys, it is 200 plus resources. Okay, we're talking Bibles, books, courses, devotionals, and these are from the giants from Vodie and Spurgeon and RC Sproul and Jay Mack and Matt Chandler, Dietrich Bonhoffer, William Lane Craig, Paul Washer, John Stodd, Doug Wilson, Paul David Trip, Jip Packer, and a whole bunch more. But here's the craziest thing. If you were to go through the Logos app and buy all 200 plus of these resources on your own, you would spend $3,321.87. But because I was working with Logos and they want to get these materials to you guys so that you can, you know, be more sanctified and better disciple your children and and catechize your family, all the different things, you get $3,300 plus dollars worth of materials for $349.99. And look, I know things are tight for a lot of people right now, but I want you to think about the stuff that you've been spending money on, guys. >> That's like 17 cups of Starbucks coffee, >> right? And you shouldn't be going there anyway because they give a whole bunch of money to kill babies through Planned Parenthood. You should never shop at Starbucks. But thanks for mentioning them on my show and giving them a free shout out, free marketing this platform. >> 17 cups of coffee for $350. >> Can you do the math? >> No, I can't do math. I think be a witness to someone at Starbucks who's >> I was trying to I was trying to roll them through the mud because their coffee is so dad gum freaking expensive that no one should be buying it anyway. >> Yeah. And just imagine the next time you take a sip of that super sugar-filled piece of nonsense that you're also drinking baby's blood. So how about that guys? How about that image? >> And you could have instead been learning about Jesus by buying the Logos Bible Center. There it is. You brought it full circle. That was my point. >> Brought it full circle. I mean the guys there are some of y'all that have spent more than $350 on fishing lures like the last the last couple years or the last >> video video games. You know how many people have like a video game problem where they're just cranking away at $15 to buy a bag of rubies in purchases. >> Yeah, they're running. You say hopefully it's definitely adults. >> It is. It's problematic. So guys, we've all spent hundreds and hundreds of dollars on stupid things. $349.99. That is roughly 89% off. It's almost $3,000 off of all these materials. And I think this bears repeating because I went through this last week because you're like, "Oh, materials by all those guys. I wonder what it is." This is going to take a second, but I'm just going to read through it. Okay. Nine English Bibles. There are 58 biblical commentaries, 18 Bible dictionaries and encyclopedias, one theological dictionary encyclopedia, seven Old Testament studies, eight New Testament studies, four general biblical studies, 18 devotionals and spiritual growth resources, 10 Bible surveys and introductions, four courses, one audio book, three books on hermeneutics and ex Jesus, uh, one Greek grammar lexicon, one Hebrew grammar lexicon, one other ancient languages lexicon, three systematic theologies, three biblical theologies, two church history and uh historical theology books, two confessions and catechisms, one liturgy and worship, two spirituality books, four pastoral care and counseling books, [clears throat] excuse me, four ministry books, four marriage and family books, six study Bibles, 27 apologetics and world religions books, one atlas map and media uh resource, one philosophy book, three others, seven 21st century theology books, eight 20th century theology books, and one 19th century theology books guys logos.com/adonedlife logos.com/endant.life life or just on dawned life just on dawned life at there at the end. It is just such a fantastic resource. But we're going to keep rolling through Romans 4. We had a great discussion uh starting in Romans 4:1. We got through Romans 4 1 and 2 last week. But even as we were discussing in between, we we kind of ended with a discussion of James and oh okay, doesn't the writing of James actually like contradict what we're seeing here in this Pauline letter? So I'll let y'all kind of continue because y'all had several more things on that before we move on in chapter 4. I wanted to point out first that I'm crushing it with the timer. >> Okay. Yeah, we just got to talk about this. Can we just list the names of people that suck at the timer? Let's start with a couple at this table. Howard, Adam suck at the timer. Don't even start that tall guy. Okay, then you got Horn. Awful at the time. Well, Horn is Horn's actually not bad, but it's like anyway, I won't make the joke. It would have been rude, but like I mean, we got Zack Todd is the worst. So, Zack Todd just in the smartest one of all of us. >> The sheer brain power of that guy. But two things in the morning. Yes. Two things that he can't do. He can't work a $10 Amazon timer and the dude can't cook a brisket to save his life because that guy starts his brisket at like 2:00 in the afternoon and he's trying to get it done for dinner. And so he thinks in his infinite wisdom, I'll just crank it up to 7,000° and it'll cook in the time that I need it to. Yeah. It's like, dude, Zack Todd, if you're listening to this, which you should be, you might as well serve bicycle tires to your guest because by the time your brisket gets out there, even a good barbecue sauce ain't going to save that. >> Let's say, let's save our boy Zack. So, if you guys were theoretically, just theoretically, imagine you were going over to your buddy's house to help him with a podcast and a nuclear bomb had dropped off in front of his freaking house to where you couldn't get around cuz there's 17 pieces of heavy machinery that Howard probably owns or has rented or or something. I'm sure a few of those. I'm sure those had to be his dozers that were over there. Wouldn't you, oh, I don't know, be like, "Hey guys, there there was literally a nuclear bomb in front of my house. You might want to come from a different direction so you don't have to waste 10. >> All I know is the people that were early at this table. >> Caleb Howard came the same way that you did and yet they were able to get through. How are they able to get through? Because construction is a fluid process, right? So sometimes we got to shut down the road for the safety of the community and sometimes we don't. And so that particular intersection was open had you been early, but you decided I want to show up fashionably late and you ended up being fashionably later. How about them? >> Fashionably early still cuz I actually pulled in and walked in the door at >> 2 minutes after being 58. >> 02 early is on time. Because if there's one thing I know about Kyle Thompson is when I'm showing up, I better be on time cuz I'm not going to hear I'm going to hear about it nonstop for a year. >> I'm going to start sending you invoices. That's what we're going to do. >> Did you look at your phone? And did you realize when I left the office, I sent you my I sent you a link to my time to to let you know when I was going to be here? Did you know that? >> Yeah. And somehow you were still late. I don't understand like how that was the the way that it worked out. Do you know why weird nuclear bomb went off in front of their house? >> So if you drive in front of my neighborhood, you would think so. I circled the whole right here. >> I went around the whole thing. It was still early. >> Right. What do we got some evidence? >> Come from the east going around might be a little might be a few late at 1250. >> 1250 >> and I got all the way around. >> But here's the other thing. You came in from the west. >> Uh I tried to come in from the east, but then I was like, "Oh, dear God, this is not going to work." So I had to go all the way around and come in from the west. >> That's funny. I did the other way. >> Oh my word. You could have drove We drove through that. Come on. Wait. Let me look at a picture. Come on. You're from the country. There's nothing. >> There was four pieces of heavy machinery in a giant thing of uh >> That's the way I went. >> No dirt. No, you could drive through. Okay. Well, I didn't I didn't >> little SUV. There's a little There's a little sign that says >> It says road closed, but road closer through traffic. You were not going through. You were going to >> I was too busy to read the signs. >> You [laughter] are too busy. Were >> you texting and driving? >> I I always text and drive, Howard. What's funny is literally the way that you came, you drove the the four miles like to get there, the same signage setup was on the other side and you somehow made it through. I wish I could show this to the camera right now and it would be in focus, but basically there's a road close sign on the right and about 75 ft beyond that there's a road close through traffic sign on the left. So, what that allows for people that live in the neighborhood or need to go to the neighborhood is they can just kind of weave their way in. How did you not notice it the first time? >> I saw your flaming head screaming at me [laughter] and I and all I saw was the tunnel vision. >> This is the most vindicating thing that's ever happened was floating over the road close sign and I anger coming out of his ears and I was like, "Oh crap, I've got to get around this." >> You're the one that sent the message that is burying you right now. That is the perfect thing. But you know what? You know what, Adam? I'm going to let you off the hook. You know why? >> Cuz that is a spectacular shirt. We should actually switch shirts uh before we do the next uh the next thing. So, shout out to >> These are actually buttons. Check that out. >> Oh, look at this. Pearl snaps, guys. I just saw a little peek. There is not an undershirt under there. So, if uh if we pop all those off, it's going to be an issue. >> I'm almost as translucent as Kyle right now. >> Bro, if I took my shirt off, you could see my lungs. That's how translucent I am over here on this side. But, you know what? We're gonna let Zach Zack Todd off the hook and we're gonna let Adam off the hook >> because someone at this table >> doesn't cook their own brisket. >> They actually get another man to cook their brisket for them. >> I don't have a smoker. Come on. >> Well, I wasn't going to say your name, [laughter] but I guess if you're out >> you you've thrown me under the bus a few times. So, >> and I think it needs to continue happening until you get your own smoker because you defrosted meat over to Ryan Horn. You trust Ryan Horn and then you say, "Hey, buddy, old pal, how about you make this brisket for me? I'll be back in 12 hours or something like that." And he does it. >> I haven't heard the story. Tell me three or four times. >> We've had our Sunday school class, not our ABF, gets together and if we have a bunch of people like I've got, you know, I'll order a whole steer or a half steer and so I've got a couple extra brisketss and I'm like, [snorts] "Hey, I'll help you provide meat." So I bring the brisket over and he smokes it. Dude, you're such a man. Like, you you sell heavy equipment for a living. You got You should be really good at smoking brisket. >> I We're about to get this. >> You even got the voice like everything about it. >> Kyle showed me his new grill and so >> shout out Rect Tech. We have no relationship with them, but like >> which first of all, can we just talk about how like Yeah, Howard, you have probably the manliest job at the table. But then also, you're like the mayor of every city and everything you walk into. You're just man, you were born to shake hands and kiss babies. I'm just telling you that right now. But Recte, I bought I can't remember which one it is, but it's the only one like this. So, it's got like a main chamber, which is like big enough for several racks of ribs or, you know, brisket and some pork butts or whatever, but then it's got a chamber on the left that is just big enough to put a cast iron a full size cast iron still skillet in there. >> And so, that chamber can get up to 500° super fast cuz it's a lot smaller. So almost every day like if I'm cooking steak or whatever. So I don't cook the steak slowly and reverse sear and do all that. What I will do is I will take you know backstrap or like a chuck steak or something like that and I will cut it into slices >> and then I will put that cast the cast iron s just stays in there. But I put it at 500°, let it run till it gets 500. I open it up. I throw like a bunch of butter in there, throw the meat in there, move it around with some tongs for about a minute and then take it off and it's like perfect medium rare steak bites. But it's because I used to do the same thing in my old one in my old smoker, but you'd have to smoke the entire chamber. You'd have to use a ton of pellets and all those types of things. So, man, Rect and Rect's not super expensive either. There are some that are way more expensive. Like triggers are way more expensive than Rect. >> So, it's it's a pellet grill. It's a pellet grill. >> So, I've I went Tger and then I went to some like fourstar general or something that one of my clients was selling. I thought, "Oh man, this is awesome. I'm going to get this thing." And >> it was not near as good as the Trager. and I had to get rid of that thing and go back to trigger. I'm the dude that I never clean my grill. Never. The only thing I will do, yeah, I will just put a brush across the top like every now and then. But for the inside the grill, never been cleaned. Not one time. And with the trigger, I've never cleaned out the little crucible or the deal where the stuff goes in and it just it just it just lights every time. No problem. So, >> you you ever su a steak and then and then I've heard good things about >> No, but uh Matt Conway, good good friend of ours. He like he does that. And so like I still don't exactly know how it works. Do you know how it works? >> It's I mean it's you get a tub of water and then it's like a deal you stick in there that just moves the water and heats it. It's got a heating element. >> It's got like little plastic pellet ball things in there that heating it. >> He he puts that on the top and it just keeps the heat from evaporating. So it just makes it more efficient. >> Right. But it what's great about it is you can suv them for hours. I mean this is how like restaurants do it. >> So they'll just take keep them back there. You pick the temperature whatever you want. If you like a medium rare or rare, you know, medium well, well, medium well is not technically [laughter] do that, but only well done steak is >> Yeah. Uh, well done is only for good and faithful servants, right? Tell your wife. I've never seen someone order a filt uh well done, but apparently Howard's wife likes hockey pucks. So, >> my mother-in-law used to order her chicken well done. I'm like, >> that's not a thing. >> Well, at least that sort of makes sense because chicken could kill you if it's not cooked. But yeah, >> but at least she delineated it, right? So, but I bet you the cook who cuz there were probably dutiful servers that wrote down chicken, you know, chk well done. And the cook was like, "Okay, 104, you got that. We're going to well done the heck out of this thing." But she probably never had a juicy chicken breast in her entire life either. >> Can't imagine. But no, sousi is super easy. And then you just do the uh first and then get a nice crust on it. It's awesome. >> Perfect. Fantastic. Uh, I don't know how we got off on this because we were supposed to be talking about James talking about >> because you were making you were making fun of somebody and so then I had to come to their defense and then I had to make fun of you nuclear >> bomb. Then we found out that you threw yourself under the bus, right, with your own picture that you took agree and Howard, detective Howard over here was the one that actually found out that you could have gotten through and been here early, but instead you decided to go your own way. >> He was thinking that Rav 4 in front of him could handle the road, but his truck couldn't. My truck couldn't make it. >> Yeah. Adam's poor little My little truck. Yep. Yeah, your little your little bitty diesel truck. What is it? Does it >> My little Ford Ranger. >> Yeah, [laughter] it's it's a blankety blank Ford Ranger. All right, let's let's get on for any of us get in trouble. But but y'all were talking about uh basically how we ended last week talking about the works of James and the works of Paul here. So, y'all continue on with that. >> I know y'all had several things going on with that. >> I mean, I was just talking about how um recently in my life, I've had a lot of Catholics kind of come into it through the my my boys go to classical school. Um, so and I think it's just kind of I don't know if it's only this one or all of them that Catholics are drawn to, but nonetheless, so I've kind of just been trying to understand more about their faith. Um, so it kind of took me down obviously with this work works versus faith conversation. Um, listening to some guys like uh Robert Baron and Mike Schmidz and a few others uh just to hear kind of what was their take on this. Right. So, one of the one of the things that they brought up and Howard, you were looking for it, so chime in when you want, was James uh 2:21-26. So, >> yeah, I had read somewhere >> something else where there was somewhere in there, but uh m it was in a MacArthur either a commentary or lesson I was listening to from him. He just talks about you have to read what was before that. And so, he was talking about before in the text he was talking about the law, right? And through the law that through that lens, then worksbased would be the only way, right? But from Abraham's perspective is solely based on faith. But I mean, I see all of what he's saying, what James is saying there. It it they you have to have both as far as like >> faith without works is dead, right? So, and MacArthur went through all that, but he's like they're in connection with each other, but it's so they don't contradict. It's just if you look at the text before and you look at the text after he's he's saying together you have to look they were looking at it through the perspective of the law >> not just based on works right so the the next day I guess in that in that RC Sproul uh the power of the gospel so this was day four on week nine [clears throat] he wrote the reformers added a footnote to the formula of justification by faith alone the full phrase is this it says justification is by faith alone but not ba by a faith that is alone. >> Mhm. Thought that was cool. >> Look, look at the top. That's what I had my phone pulled up to. Literally, the I have it highlighted. That was the first point I wanted to make right now. >> That's cool. >> Yeah. And I read it. >> And what was that in? >> This is in the Sprroller. Same same book. Same. >> Um, and the way I had to reread it a couple times because my brain doesn't process things quite as quickly as others, I think. But it says justification is by faith alone >> but not by a faith that is alone. The point is that if we have true faith it will immediately and necessarily be manifested in a changed life. >> And just to continue on >> works flow necessarily from faith. But the point of the gospel is that the works that flow from faith are in no way the grounds of justification. I had to read that multiple times. works flow necessarily from faith. But the point of the gospel is that the works that flow from faith are in no way the grounds of justification. >> God declares us just in his sight the moment true faith is present before a single work flows from our faith. Let's go back to Abraham. >> It was counted to him as righteousness, right? His faith. >> What was one of his works? his um going up Mount Mariah with Isaac, right? That was one of his first tests, big test of his faith. It showed his faith because he was uh willing to listen to God and do what he asked him to do because he had faith, right? It wasn't the act of going up the mountain. It wasn't the act of tying him up. It wasn't the act of what he was going to do and listening to God. It was because he was already justified in his faith before that happened. Mhm. >> So let's actually just to bring in that discussion Adam if you can read verse three. So Romans 4:3 and then we'll kind of open up the discussion more so from there. >> Romans 4:3 and this is from ESV. For what does the scripture say? Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness. >> So this goes back to the promise from Genesis 15. Hey uh Caleb, can you turn to Genesis in your uh Bible there? Just go. It's just at the beginning. If you can just turn to your Oh, well uh if you didn't watch last week's episode, uh you you don't get the joke. I'm kidding. Uh we'll go to somebody else or Yeah. Does anybody have their physical Bible up here? Oh, we only have one that's missing Genesis. Uh if if somebody can read, uh [laughter] Okay, >> Genesis. >> You know what I actually want to do, Howard? If you will do me this favor. Um I think it's actually important to this discussion to read all of Genesis 15. It's not very long, but this is this is what we're talking about where, you know, where Paul's talking about Abraham believed in God and it was counted to him as righteousness. That goes into Genesis 15. So, can you read all of Genesis 15? >> Yeah, let me make sure I got ESV pulled up here. Oh, >> I've got NASBY pulled up if that's on. >> Let's go. Let's go NASBY. Switch it up a little bit. >> Genesis 15. So, this is NASBY verse one. After these things, the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision, saying, "Do not fear Abram. I am a shield to you. Your reward shall be very great. Abram said,"Oh Lord God, what will you give me since I am childless and the heir of my house is Elizer of Damascus?" And Abram said, "Since you have given no offspring to me, one born in my house is my heir." Then behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, "This man will not be your heir, but one who will come forth from your own body, he shall be your heir." And he took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And he said to him, "So shall your descendants be." Then he believed in the Lord, and let's slow down on this one. Then he believed in the Lord, and he reckoned it to him as righteousness. And he said to him, "I am the Lord who brought you out of the Calaldanss to give you the land to possess it." He said, "Oh Lord God, how may I know that I will possess it?" So he said to him, "Bring me a three-year-old heer and a three-year-old female goat and a three-year-old ram and a turtle dove and a young pigeon." Then he brought all these to him and cut them in two, laid them each half opposite the other, but he did not cut the birds. The birds of prey came down upon the carcasses and Abram drove them away. Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram, and behold, terror and great darkness fell upon him. God said to Abram, "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, where they will be enslaved and oppressed 400 years. But I will also judge the nation whom they will serve. And afterward they will come out with many possessions. As for you, you shall go into your father's house. You shall go to your fathers in peace. You will be buried at a good old age. Then in the fourth generation they will return here. For the iniquity of their Amorite is not yet complete. It came about when the sun had set that it was very dark, and behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a flaming torch which passed between these pieces. On that day, the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your descendants, I have given this land from the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates, the Kennite, and the Kenzanite, and the Cad Cadminite, and the Hittit, and the Pez per Perizzite, and the Refum, and the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Gegosite, and the Jebusite." >> I really wish Ryan had been here at the very end of that just to take over the last verse or two for you. [laughter] He has [clears throat] he's doing pretty good in his pronunciations these days. >> But uh the important thing about this is obviously >> Abraham believes believed God's promise >> and he did it before most of us really think about it, >> right? >> Um and when was his righteousness counted? Because God did not wait to count his righteousness as you said Adam. I mean because Mount Mariah that's Genesis 22, right? >> Right. when by the time he gets to Mount Mariah, >> he already had the righteousness, >> pre Isaac, pre-ircumcision, like which is the sign of the covenant, right? It was pre all of that >> question. Was it also uh pre- Ishmamail? >> Yeah. >> I don't think so. Ishmael was born first. >> Yeah. But was it was Ishmael born after God promised him that? >> Didn't [snorts] God promised him? Oh, go ahead. >> Just go to Genesis real quick in uh your Bible. Oh, sorry, Caleb. Sorry. I just keep I keep making the same mistake. Genesis. >> I mean, perhaps I was reading this wrong, but part of what I just read just just referred to uh his heir like in the first couple of verses. Uh since since you have no offspring to me, one uh born in my house is my heir. >> Talking [clears throat] about So, it had to be before Ishma because that's interesting though. It's like that's the first promise, right, that he makes him. >> Yep. >> And and he's declared righteous right away. >> Right there. >> And then even the first promise he makes him, he's like, "I don't know if I believe you." >> Yeah. Yeah. And he listened to his wife and then his wife ended up complaining. So I know that's never happened to anybody at this table. She suggested something in >> I think that's the thing we have to realize cuz he'll he'll talk about it later is like he it wasn't that he didn't believe in the promise. He he always believed in the promise but he wasn't sure how the promise would be fulfilled. Sure. And so I think we make sure we have to have a distinction there because he talks about Abraham's faithfulness, right? [clears throat] It wasn't that he lacked it, but I think it's a it's applicable for us, right? There's a lot of times we know the promise is true, but we still try to make our own little tweaks or adjustments to get there time >> when and what you just read wasn't it just where we're like, "Hey, it'll come from your line." There was not a mention of Sarah there >> or Sarai. And so at at that point, like >> he may have thought that Sarah was like, "Hey, just go into my my slave girl and like have sex with her cuz it's still his line. It's still his child." But it, you know, at that moment when the covenant was made, which I'm not saying, hey, God did this to confuse him. That's certainly not what I'm saying. But it's like, yeah, he he may have honest to goodness thought that that was the way. >> Yeah. >> I've also heard on that um so I don't remember what verse it was in, but God makes him the promise and then the response is or what it says is that Abraham believed in God. Whereas like if you believe the promise, it's almost like you would say uh Abraham believed God about the promise, right? >> Mhm. where it's like instead of saying he believed God about his promise, he he believed in God as in like God's the savior of, you know, I believe everything about God, right? And what it means to me. Does that make sense? >> Y >> um and I don't I don't remember who I was reading, but they they kind of distinguished that mentioned that it's that shows his faith, not necessarily like his trust in, you know, whatever the the process was. Right. >> Yeah. And to continue on from Genesis 15, Genesis 16 is is immediately the story with Sarai and Hagar where and and I've said this before and this is probably the most controversial thing I've said on this podcast, but I'm going to say it again. So, whose whose fault was the fall? Was it Adam or was it Eve? It was clearly Eve, right? It was Eve, a woman right? >> Are you waiting for responses or you just throw that danger? It was it was it was Eve's fault. And then here we go to Genesis 16. Whose idea was it for Abram to lay with Hagar? >> Sarah. >> Boom. >> Yeah. >> Women. Man. >> So, is the point that women should have >> say it? You just did not say I didn't say that. >> Well, what did you say? I'm still trying to like get to what you're [laughter] saying. >> There's all of this negativity like sin. Sin is bad. The line of Ishmael obviously not not Islam. Where did all that come from? >> Natural consequences. [laughter] >> Women. So, what is your application point here, Adam? >> Oh, I'm just I'm just saying it's just an interesting point to make. >> So, guys, you heard it here first. Adam Smith says women shouldn't have rights. Definitely should not be able to vote. Not able to drive. >> My wife listens to this show, so this is just a joke. I'm kidding, honey. She's only I don't mean it. But so the the funny thing about like you know all kidding aside as it pertains to that point. So Eve um in her limited wisdom decided to listen to the serpent >> and uh ate of the apple. But we see from the context of the text that where was Adam? >> Yeah. Right. Right there. Right there. Just doofing it up like you know just Oh yeah, sure. Right. There's a dragon talking to your lady. Right. >> Yeah. Now, I will say because yeah, we we've already established it was definitely a dragon, not a snake. All right, so it was a dragon because otherwise it wouldn't be a punishment for this reptile to have to crawl around on its belly if it already didn't have arms, legs, wings, all the different things and be able to fly. >> Did you get that that added to the ESV commentary that it was >> I I've got a suggestion in to the editors and so they're working on it. Um, but the thing that is also interesting about that cuz people are like, you know, this is their argument. They're like, "She wouldn't have been talking to a snake." Like we're we have a fear of snakes. Like even a child will look at a snake and be like naturally scared of it. This is prefall, right? So every creature, right? Every creature on earth like snakes, komodo, dragons, lions elephants rhinos hippos the most terrifying maybe of all those, the dang hippo. Like there there was no sin. Those animals weren't trying to kill them or probably each other. You know, we can't really know. But yeah, like she wouldn't have been scared of a dragon. She would just been like, "Oh, that's Adam named that. You will be called dragon." And then like here here comes the dragon and like you know the dragon can talk. She wouldn't have thought that was weird because like hey you know everything else in here is weird. How did we get here? >> The snake hadn't been cursed yet. >> The what? >> The snake had not been cursed yet or the dragon. >> The dragon the dragon hadn't been cursed yet. There you go. You correct. >> Can you say this same thing to Jay Riser? And he was like yeah I mean whatever if you want to call it a dragon that's fine. >> I do remember that. >> What does Jay know, right? So, exactly. >> That's a good point. I didn't consider that. >> Yeah. There's a reason why he's not here right now. >> Okay. I'm kidding. He wasn't. He was busy. [laughter] He wasn't here. That's why I'm here right now is because he couldn't. >> You're the fill in for Jay. >> Yes. >> So, I think it's interest. It's a small note, but verse three starts with for what does scripture say? >> And I I think you maybe said it last week when when we are dealing with these things, do we go back to scripture? >> Right? We can use all kinds of, you know, apologetics and arguments and things like that, but what does Paul do? He goes back to the word, right? And there's plenty of references to that to that he uses to argue that, but he goes back to the word as his foundation for his argument. >> Well, and Caleb, that's, you know, you're, you said a bunch of Catholics, you're being surrounded by Catholics now, and we've seen lots of reporting of uh, you know, the Latin mass exploding in popularity with young men, Eastern Orthodox exploding in popularity. I think that's more of an indictment on the seeker sensitive movement within Protestantism more than it is the actual appeal of Eastern Orthodox and Catholicism because the uh come as you are no matter what the circumstances are like secret sensitive model there's nothing expected of you >> but you know kind of like you know Joby said it before it's it's his father's quote but it's like you know a man's like a flatbed truck like he drives better with a with a little bit of a load right so it's going to handle better when there's a load and so these men are looking at these just come as you are, you know, get your coffee and your and your cookies and come on in and listen to the rock show and, you know, listen to your TED talk and then you just leave and they're like, "Is this it? Do y'all don't need help with anything?" Like, and the help the help that's being offered is, "Well, yeah, you can move the carts of coffee." And I'm not anti- coffee cart movers. We need those guys. But it's like, "Yeah, you you can you can help, you know, clean up afterwards. Maybe every now and then we'll have to clear the sanctuary, so you can help us move chairs." And a lot of men are like, "Wait, you know, I'd rather go do stuff." in the Catholic Church and the Orthodox is like, "Yeah, yeah, hey, come here. Do stuff." But the problem specifically even with Catholicism is there's kind of like a a tripod of where truth comes from. >> So, it's the word of God, yes, but it's also whatever the pope says, who's supposed to be the vicor of Christ, which is hilarious. He's just the bishop of Rome. And then also, what does church history say? Church tradition say. So, that's like a stool, you know, three-legged stool or or tripod of some kind. And the the issue obviously becomes okay >> what if church history does not align with scripture, right? Because it wasn't until like the the year the 1000s or 900s where they even started saying, all right, you know, priests can't have families, right? They can't be married. They can't have kids. Okay? Like a thousand years after Christ. Where did that come from? Okay, it didn't come from the Bible. Peter was married with kids, right? And then he's supposed to be the first pope, but now the pope doesn't have to do that. What if the pope, Pope Francis did this all the time and Leo is just basically, you know, a continuation of the stupidity. He'll say something that is contrary to the Bible, doesn't comport with scripture. >> To whose app uh authority do we appeal? >> And so if we have all three stools that and they all agree at all times, okay, then that's probably something that we should move our faith into. But if you are more on the solos scripturous side of things which Catholics would argue against like hey we didn't have the Bible as it as it is right now in the first century like the eklesas didn't have like a a tome that had all the Bible right they they didn't even have a Bible missing the first two books they just didn't have the Bible at all so how can it be solo scriptura when does solos scriptura start start happening when Gutenberg invented the printing press like and so there there are issues with everything but I think it's a much larger issue to be like to whose authority are to appeal. But if you going back to Howard's point, if you appeal to scripture, what does the text say? >> Right? >> Here's okay, here's what it says. The next layer is so what does this mean? >> Mhm. >> Cuz we can say this is what it says now, but we're reading it in English, which was translated from the Germanic, which was probably translated from the Greek, uh, you know, which may have been translated from the, you know, Hebrew or Aramaic or depends on how it was written down. And so it's like, okay, that's what it says. Now, what does it mean? And then it's like, okay, so what do I have to do? >> Like, is [clears throat] this prescriptive or descriptive? Because if it's descriptive, it's up to you to kind of know it and understand it, but you don't need to necessarily apply it to your life. But if it's prescriptive, it's like, oh shoot, I got to do something with this. >> So that that becomes an issue as well. >> Go ahead. when when I've been in discussion with some of my friends who are Catholics and I I try to avoid I don't want to be in a position to where I feel like I'm trying to spike the football or make them feel bad about their faith or anything like that. >> But the one time that I have brought up the pope and especially the recent popes that we've had and I've touched how do you reconcile that man I usually see them shift in their seat and get uncomfortable because most of the Catholics that I know they they are not on board with that. So I'm like if if they're not on board with most of what he says or what their decisions are. So if if that's the case, how can you lift him up to a higher position? How is that even possible? And I've never really gotten a great answer on why that makes sense. Like why do we need this? Why do we need all these other ancillary things that this tells us that we don't need? >> Right. You need to have a Catholic on Kyle. >> Yeah. >> Catholic. I mean I've had Mike Schmidz on [clears throat] the show. He was he was a guest years and years ago and we talked about the Pope because this was right in the middle of Pope Francis and he had a very diplomatic answer. I mean, Mike Mike is such an impressive, smart guy, great podcaster as well. He's he's always on the top of the the podcast charts as well. >> But the the thing about it is most of the positions are not defensible. >> And when they appeal to something, they will appeal to mostly tradition or papal authority. They're not leaning on scripture. And then you were making a very interesting comment um you know, in between recordings about when Catholics um when they run into an issue or you can make the point that you were talking about. I I think it was just when I was when you ask them like is it faith or works right >> is that is that what you're talking about where justification happen is that they'll say no we believe it's faith alone but then they they basically say but your your works would be a natural outflow right but that's not what their actions I mean that's not what it suggests >> well and according to the Catholic church of grace by faith is anathema >> like they they literally declare that anathema and so it's like if they were to say that they're kind of being a bad Catholic because they're not going with what what the church has has, you know, ruled on or whatever, >> right? Um I can't remember what I was going to say. My bad. Um [laughter] thank you. Uh yeah, I I don't uh >> I think it's because you can smell your jerky bag that's right beside you and it's open. >> I'm distracted. >> Yeah. Yeah. Most uh verses came from um Robert Baron. Uh I believe that's his first name, but >> Bishop Robert Baron. Yep. >> Yep, that's right. Uh so I I think my kind of my question is oh I know what I was going to mention was so my my brother-in-law is Catholic as well and he would say regarding the pope and like papal authority is that they uh they don't actually believe that the pope can say anything that is heretical >> like it's impossible right like they can weigh in on everything socially and say the craziest stuff but because it's like socially and it's just talking about what's going on today in the world that it's not going it's not heretical. It's not going against the word of God, right? They believe that they're actually incapable of doing that. >> Even if the word like the heretical words are coming out of their mouth, they can't say it. >> Yeah. I don't They're saying it can't be heresy. >> 1 plus one does not equal three. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Right. I don't I think last time I checked 1 plus 1 doesn't equal three. So, yeah. I think if he says something heretical, it's clearly got to be heretical. Right. >> Well, and then the same people will argue, no, there's been an unbroken line from Peter to today. >> Yeah. which that is not even historically accurate. But let's just say we go with that. >> Then you're telling me some of the Middle Ages popes >> that turned the Vatican into like den of debauchery where there was like gay orgies and you know mixed gender orgies happening where you had popes that defied what the Catholic Church said and had wives and had mistresses and had a bunch of kids and all kinds of different things. You get a little gristle over there, you know. Sorry. I I put that one specifically in your back. But that that's one of the things as well. It's like, okay, then what is your apologetic for that? That what they were doing was not sinful because of their their title. Like, >> so yeah, it just it starts to fall apart, >> right? Yeah. So, do you guys think I mean, it's maybe getting away from uh Catholic conversation a little bit, but do you think a a real faith can exist then without works? >> I would argue that if there are no works, and I would hope not. I would hope not. I don't I don't think it's possible. You have no fruit. >> And we're going to get to that. Yeah. Like real quick pretty soon. But I would I would say I think an emphatic no. >> Howard, >> let me let me say >> only thing I was going to say is a thief on the cross. Right. >> That's what I was going to say too. Like that that is a that is a difference. Like obviously and >> something that I was reading I believe it's in Matthew and I think I mentioned this to you the other day. At the end of Matthew, it does not refer to the I'm someone fact check me on this. I do not believe in Matthew that it refers to the thief's salvation at all. I think it's completely silent. I think it's in Mark that we find that the thief was actually saved. And in Matthew, it says both thieves were making fun of him. Bo both criminals on either side of them were making fun of them. I've never made that connection before. >> Yeah, >> I think that's right. And if that's true, it painted a new picture for me because not only was this man saved at, you know, the last possible second of his life, but just a few minutes, a few hours before, he was chiming in with everybody else >> and making fun of them. And so something radically changed in that man at the last possible say. What was it? What did he see? >> So let me go to Matthew, [clears throat and cough] excuse me, Matthew 27 verse starting in verse 38. Then two robbers were crucified with him, one on the right and one on the left. And those who passed by derided him, wagging their heads and saying, "You who would destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save yourself. If you are the son of God, come down from the cross." So also the chief priests and the scribes and elders mocked him, saying, "He saved others. He cannot save himself. He is the king of Israel. Let him come down from the cross, and he will believe him. He trusts in God. Um uh let God deliver him now. If he desires him, for he said, I am the son of God." And then 44, and the robbers who were crucified with him also reviled him in the same way. And so there there is not a delineation here in the in Matthew's accounting, which was mainly for a Jewish audience, of the salvation of of u one of the criminals. >> So both so both have to be true. So if if in Matthew's um if if in Matthew's gospel it's saying that both of them were making fun of him >> in in in Mark's gospel then at the same time I believe that's where we find that he was saved. Surely with me you will be in paradise. Um what was that radical transition to where he was deriding him and then to all of a sudden he is now broken and changed. So, that was a strange segue, but to your point, Howard, I wanted to caveat what I said earlier. I was like, could there be uh true faith without works? Like 99.8% of the time, no. But I do believe that there can be and there are radical last minute, last second. >> Um >> um >> yeah, I mean first responders and different things like that, you know, who knows what >> Yeah. some of those people experience would be right. So if we go to Mark 15, uh, starting in verse 27, [laughter] and with him they crucified two robbers, one on the right and one on his left, and those who passed by derided him, wagging their heads, saying, "Aha, you who would destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days. Save yourself and come down from the cross." Also the chief priests and scribes mocked him and one another, saying, "He saved others. He cannot save himself. Let the Christ, the king of Israel, come down from the cross, and may we see and believe those who were crucified with him also reviled him." So that's Mark. So, sounds very similar to what we see in Matthew. And so, there is no um there's no delineation here in this accounting cuz Mark got his information from Peter, we assume, correct? >> So, we would say heart change. There was a heart change there. >> Well, Mark's gospel is the same as Matthew. It must be in Luke that it's different. There's there's obviously one where the thief is saved. >> [clears throat] >> He's hammering away. >> Dead air. >> He's hammering away. >> No, it's good. You know this. How many tattoos do we think? You continue to search. How many tattoos do we think Kyle has? Is it like >> You can't say it's a tattoo cuz that's like, you know, it's how much time have I been >> or do we say percentage? >> So, there's a picture of me and Kyle from 2017, and we had just finished rolling. And this was at a time when, okay, when we first started rolling, I would say Kyle was probably going to beat me 60% of the time and I would win 40% of the time. >> Maybe 55. >> Uh, yeah. Okay. 55 45. Anyway, we were close. We were close. We were in the same We were in the same stratosphere. And then 2017, we were kind of in a competition at my shop. And, uh, he ended up winning. At that time, he was probably a 75% winner, something like that. But you know what I've discovered is the number of tattoos that he has added to his body is directly correlated to the the the betterness that he is than at me at jiu-jitsu. And so now he's gotten maybe 774 more tattoos >> [laughter] >> uh than than were in 2017. And so now he's got his brown belt. Now he taps me 42 times in three minutes. So, I've decided and I'm going to make an official announcement right now that I've decided to sign up for full sleeves and once I get my sleeves done, then I hope that my brown belt is coming not long after and I can start tapping you out, my friend. >> Sleeve tattoos or sleeves on a brown shirt? Cuz you already have sleeves on a brown shirt cuz that's what you're wearing right now. >> Sleeve tattoos and they might be with ink on my skin or I might just buy a shirt that makes it look like I got them. [laughter] But anyway, I think both work just the same. >> Well, we've already established that. I mean, with your with your skin [clears throat] issues with how you're so easily you could brush up against like some some stucco and you're going to have like some issues. So, I don't know what shoving a bunch of ink several layers down in your skin. [laughter] >> Isn't it that important that you beat Kyle? >> Oh, you have to get >> I would be willing to do just about anything to tap him out again. The the feeling of getting taking his back. >> How long's it been, Adam? How long's it been since you tapped me? If we had to think >> 2018, I mean, I bet it's been 6 years at least. Like, it's literally I have 0.00 chance. There's no chance. And when there's another man on you that you used to be able to manhandle, and now you can do nothing. So, it's almost absolutely nothing. >> Your chance of getting into heaven by works is almost like your chance of being a child. [laughter] >> Yeah, that's true. That's a good transition. >> That was pretty good. >> That's a good That was pretty good. Okay. I need I need I need some help because I was right about Matthew, but I was wrong about Mark. It's got to be in another one. >> We're in Luke. We're in Luke 23 now. So, let's go to Luke 23. This is after the inscription after Jesus said, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." So, this is Dr. Luke. Starting in verse 39 of Luke 23. One of the criminals who were hanged railed against him, saying, "Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us." But the other criminal criminal is not in there. But the other rebuked him, saying, "Do you not fear God since you are under the same sentence of condemnation, and we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds." But this man has done nothing wrong. And he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." And he said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise." So some people might think like, "Wait a minute. Y'all just quoted the three synoptics and only one of them said that one of the criminals was saved. But when you're getting stories from different perspectives, you will emphasize different things. If the four of us were to go outside and witness a crime of some kind that involves several people and then we don't talk to one another and we go straight to four different police officers to give our statement, I'm going to assume that we are going to emphasize the same main points >> and then not emphasize some of the other kind of like secondary or tertiary points. >> And so that's why I say when there is a difference in scripture when someone's like, "Well, this one says there was an angel and this one says uh there were three angels." So all right obviously this is this is not true. It's like well no like if there are three people outside I can say yeah there was a guy outside which is true or I can say yeah there were three guys outside which is also true. It depends on which part of the the statement or which part of the story that you choose to focus on. >> Right. >> And and I'm obviously untrained and this is only a correlation that I've ever made before. I assume I'm I'm right. It seems like we're talking about the same people, but it does seem like it's a different story in Matthew than it is in Luke, which I found to be really interesting. It made it even more interesting to me that there was some massive transformation in this guy because what what Matthew wrote down had to had to be just as equally true as what Luke's perspective was. They just both picked up on something different. And so, it makes it even more amazing. What was it that changed that caused him to change his ways? It sounds like a good question for ask a pastor >> because I'm afraid yeah it would be an ask a pastor or if Jay was here Jay like that's really cute Adam but actually this is what that meant you [laughter] know it's like that was great this >> I think Jay likes watching people drown not fully drown but where their lungs get kind of filled with water and he's like fine I'll get in there and save you and they pluck them out and save them at the last >> I would have made this awesome point he would have just sat there and just been like [snorts] >> shut up CPA like let me deal with this >> yeah go back to tax code. >> Well, hey, so anything else on Romans 4:3? Because we're going to come back next week and start in Romans 4:4. But closing thoughts on Romans 4:3. >> 1 2 3. All right, guys. We are going to stop it there. So, come back here next week. Be ready to start with Romans 4:4. But before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost. At Undaunted Life, our mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Remember, we are donationbased ministry. undaunted.life/donate. Undaunted.life/ life/donate. That link is in the show notes. We have monthly donors, guys. 10 bucks a month, 100 bucks a month, whatever. That helps us get this content out to people all around the globe. And also log us on Daunted Life Study Bundle. We want to make sure you guys get that. It is over $3,000 worth of 200 plus materials for only 350 bucks. Get on there, check that out. It is all in the show notes. Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five-star review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast or shoot me an email to info@undanton.life, that's info@undanton.life. 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