Hey guys, real quick. So, I've talked to men literally all across the globe about where they're missing the mark and how they want to improve. They normally talk about how they wish they were in better shape. They wish they had a better relationship with their loved ones. They wish they had more success and influence at work and some other stuff like that. But here are some of the most common and biggest things that I hear. I wish I knew more about the Bible. I wish I could lead my family spiritually. I wish I could recall more scripture. I wish Bible study wasn't such a struggle. Well guys, I've got news for you. You don't have to keep wishing. It's time for you to start doing. It's time for you to stop wasting your time and money on stuff that has no eternal value whatsoever. I keep hearing you talk about how you want to be more biblically literate and spiritually resilient. And now is your chance to prove that you mean it. That's why I want you to take advantage of our partnership with the most powerful Bible software on planet Earth, Logos. So, Logos approached me about putting something together for the Undaunted Lifers out there, and we collaborated to create something I'm super pumped about, the Undaunted Life Study Bundle. So, here's the skinny on the bundle. There are over 200 individual resources and they include titles from authors like Vodie Bacham, Charles Spurgeon, RC Sproul, John MacArthur, Matt Chandler, Dietrich Bonhaofer, William Lane, Craig, Paul Washer, John Scott, Doug Wilson, Paul David Trip, Jipacker, and a whole bunch more. And there are so many helpful resources in there. There's Bibles, commentaries, Old and New Testament study guides, devotionals, systematic theologies courses dictionaries histories encyclopedias non-fiction books, and more and more and more. And here's the most insane part about this deal. If you were to buy each individual resource by yourself inside of Logos, it would cost you over $3,000. $3,000. But if you get the Undaunted Life Study bundle, you'll get all 200 plus resources for just $349.99. Guys, that's $3,000 worth of stuff for 350 bucks, guys. That's almost 90% off. And you know that you waste more than that on the hobbies that you have right now all the time. And these won't help you with your disciplehip and sanctification journeys, right? It's time to get real and take control of your Bible study and spiritual development. Click the link in the show notes for this episode. If you want the link, it's logos.com/undaunted life. That's www.llog.com/undauntedlife or the link in the show notes. It's super easy to sign up. Again, go to the show notes and click the link or go to logos.comlife. Sign up for Logos and get the Undaunted Life study bundle right now. This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. Welcome back to the forging table. The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. At the forging table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience by digging into God's word. We're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with us. That's Ryan. That's Russ. Believe it or not, that is Zack Todd, guys. How How is it even possible? >> It says 99. >> So, what you did was, if you're wondering, uh, audience uh, that are not watching this on video. So, right now, it is currently counting down. And so, what we're going to do is we're going to stop it. We're going to reset it. >> I tried to do that. >> And then we're going to hit it just like that. It's so weird. I'm the dumbest one at the table, but I can make this thing work. >> Hold on. >> What? >> That was a setup. >> How was that a setup? >> When he hit it, it was already 99. It wasn't even zero. >> He did what he was supposed to do. It was starting at 99. >> Pause. What he was supposed to do was get the timer going. Whatever circumstances befell him before that task was to be done, he did not do. He's just like, "Well, I guess we'll just go ahead and hit it and wonder if it's going to work out." >> How long How long have we been doing this? >> Two years. Wait, >> two and a half years. Success rate on this is like, >> no, but I'm just saying we've been doing this for two and a half years. That's the first time. And I've been on this podcast a lot. I've never seen it say 99. >> So, you think this was like a You all think this is a setup? You think I plan this? >> No, I'm just saying that he actually did what you did ask everyone else to do every other week. >> Yeah, he did it. He did it right. >> Well, funny thing about it, it's not their studio. That's mine. You suck. You're fired. All right, Russ, you're in out of the bullpin for the last one. But hey, uh there's been a lot of questions here at this table before we started recording about what's going on with my shirt. >> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. >> It's not a black V-neck. >> Uh yeah. Yeah. So, black V-neck is kind of my calling card. I do own about 10 of them, so I don't even have to think about I just grab the one that's closest to the edge or whatever. But the cool thing about this shirt is I'm pretty sure I was doing World Changers mission trip. This would have been I don't know somewhere in Missouri or Streetport, Louisiana or something like that. And so we get a mall day and I go to the mall and I pick up this short sleeve to describe for the people at home. Think of the most awesome like cowboy shirt you've ever gotten in your entire life. But cut the sleeves off, right? So it's a short sleeve and it's a pearl snap. The thing about this shirt though is I've probably owned this shirt longer than any other shirt that I own. But I've gotten to wear it the least because Kelsey hates the shirt. She thinks this shirt is ugly. Uh and so kind of like how I disagreed with everyone at the table, maybe get a vote from you guys. What do you all think? What do you all think of the shirt? I like it. >> What's the brand? What does that say? >> It looks a little I will say >> I I don't know. I can't read it. >> Maybe one reason she doesn't like it is what you layer it with. Cuz I mean, what people can't see is you're wearing shorts with that shirt. It does. >> And tall socks. And tall socks. It's cuz I get excited uh whenever we start doing forging table. So if I I had pants on before this >> and so this is actually a lot more clothes that I wear than when I record solo. There's almost never pants like of any kind. Right. So not even underpants. Yeah, >> that's just kind of how it goes. >> But actually, the reason that I wore this shirt is because I may have did a slight misdirection. >> Mhm. >> There is a funny story about the shirt and I just told you and it's not that funny of a story, but if we go all the way in the Wayback Machine to episode 855 of this podcast, actually Landon, uh, talking to you out there in editor land. Uh, Landon, if you'll go ahead and go to that clip, please from episode 855. >> Well, we are proud of you, Ryan, for every where you're going. But hey, t-shirt idea. If everybody at the forging table eventually becomes Calvinist, maybe we can sell cockshure t-shirts. It'll just say cockshure across front. Or maybe we'll do like a little like little graphic of a fighting with a with just the word sure next to it. We'll just work with that. What do you think? Bumper stickers. >> Maybe maybe holding a bundle of tulips. >> I don't know. CC cockure calendar tulips. And then we'll just put a Christmas tree cake on the sleeve just for no reason. But all right. Thank you, Landon. So here's the thing about about that. So, I've been known from time to time to just say stuff on the show, right? You know, sometimes I just kind of like, you know, haul off and say something and later on when I listen to it, I'm like, "Oh, well, I don't remember saying that, but that's kind of funny. Maybe a little bit offensive." But there's a lot of throwaway lines, right, at this table cuz we're all having a good time. Like, sometimes we'll play games, sometimes we'll do things. So, I I watched that episode. I listened to it and I thought I thought it was funny, but it was one of a myriad of funny things that happened at that table that day. So, it was you, Adam Smith, and Jay Risner, the XP of the church that, uh, we all go to, uh, most of us go to. And so, uh, I don't even think about it. And then randomly, out of nowhere, I get shield your eyes. Shield your eyes. I get an email from one Gideon Fiser. Gideon Fischer of Standout Creative Studio. And wouldn't you know it, he thought it was a great idea. He thought it was a great idea to do a t-shirt like that. And so, >> oh my goodness, >> that is a Christmas tree cake in TV. That's a tattoo of a Christmas tree. >> And he's got tulips. >> Tulips. >> Dude, that is so awesome. Landon, can we get camera one? Here we go. >> Cockshire. >> So, for those of you uh just watching at home, it is a fighting with the word sure underneath it. In his left hand or wing, he is holding five tulips. And he's got he's holding a Bible and on his right arm he's got a Christmas tree cake tattoo t-shirts. >> That is awesome. Softball. >> Are you a Calvinist? >> They should be the Calvinist. All right. Maybe we can go there. Maybe we can get there. But I will say >> we'll go there. >> What does Grassh say? He says most heresy is sung before it. >> Yours is worn >> where there's smoke. >> There's no heresy in that. It's all biblical. But this is what I will say is um you know I've I've gotten more generous and more giving over the years and so >> Oh. Oh no. >> Let's go. >> Zack, here's your cockshure shirt. >> Wow. >> I am so honored. Thank you. Russ, here's your cockure shirt. >> I'm excited. >> He's a shirt. To the most cockure of us all. Maybe the OG of the cockuress, Ryan. We got one for you. Oh man, that's awesome. >> But what size is it? >> It's probably uh XL. >> Yes, because we don't do 2X for you anymore, right? We are done with 2X horn. We're done with 2X horn. So there we go, guys. Uh we don't have to change into them right now, but maybe for the for the rest of the >> You will see me on it. >> Maybe for next week. Okay, I'll wear it. And I will go and say Adam has a cockshure shirt coming his way. Jay Ryner of our church has a cockshure shirt coming his way. And then >> the most polite of all the cockshure people, Mr. Grassmmer. He's got a costume coming his way. And so to go ahead and answer the questions, right? No, we are not selling these on our website. Uh we we by the time y'all get this, we might have our store launched or whatever. Uh no, this is going to be just like the sorry Joby shirts that we did a couple years ago. This is a limited run of limited runs. But just again to give the shout out to Gideon Fisher standoutcreative.studio. Wait, let me actually make sure that that is his website creative. >> Good quality. Yeah. So, uh, >> yes, standoutcreative.studio. Standout creative.studio. Uh, and again, I didn't ask him to do this and you know, he emailed it to me and I was like, "Hey, can we actually move this here and and move that there?" Like very very very minor changes. Did them immediately. I worked with a gal here here locally, uh, Tucker who a guy from our Sunday school cuz I was basically like, >> "Guys, I I sent out like three emails. I'm like, the first person that can get me all of these shirts wins, right? And so I need them in these sizes. is and needs to kind of look like this or whatever. But this would not have happened without Gideon. But I guess it wouldn't happen without all the cockuress that we've had at this table, Ryan. And you came ready to go for this batch of episodes, I think. Is this going to help you or hurt you that you've kind of got this emlazing across the chest? >> Man, it's going to it's going to be really awesome when we get into chapter 5. >> Yeah, chapter 5 is going to be substantial. But um anything else before we get into uh get into Romans? You got something on the tip of your brain over there, don't you? I'm just surprised we we haven't had somebody do the hourglass yet, you know, like how many glass smiths are out there anymore? It it really must be a low number. >> Yeah, cuz the funny thing about the timer, which is now apparently it's just dead. Um the thing about the timer is we keep it there so we kind of have an idea of where we're going and you know, so we don't like start a new diet tribe 45 or 50 minutes in or something like that. But how long ago is that Russ? Like a year ago is like >> Oh, actually maybe six six months ago, something like that. I I I don't think it's been a year yet >> because I I got on Amazon or whatever and I was just looking for an hourglass, right? >> And it was the most ornate like it just didn't fit the vibe going on at the forging table, especially with the new forging table. >> And I just figured there's got to be someone out there. But here's the other thing I learned about hourglasses. >> For them to not be this tall, they are basically five minute glasses, right? 10-minute glasses. So for it to have an hour's worth of sand in there, it's got to be kind of substantially sized. And if that goes on this table, it's just going to like overwhelm everything, right? So that that's kind of but I mean I mean that's basic are only two options. An hourglass is too big or apparently a timer that doesn't work at all. >> I would think the ratio of pebble size to opening size that you could come up with a way to have a smaller hourglass. I mean I'm not an expert. Maybe maybe this is my >> ratio guy. I need to get into hourglass. >> If they do any ornate things like maybe like kind of like a Lord of the Rings type of thing. >> Here's what I envision is one that actually bolts on to the end of the table just right there and it just touch and flip it. >> Yeah, >> that's all. Why did you bring up Lord of the Rings? Like >> I feel like that's something that would be like like Middle Earth looking, you know like >> that's ornate opposite of that. >> It's going to be like I don't know like Winkleresque. It's gonna be huge. >> Enormous. It's going to be like a five gallon bucket. >> Winkler. It's gonna be Winkleresque. >> But you know, Winkler is so big. Even when he's not here, he's at the forging table. That's basically how it feels. It's like the ghost of Winkler is here. I think also because there's his the last time he was in this room and laughed, it's still bouncing off the walls, right? So, if y'all don't understand the the laughter of that that man, it it will shake the paint off the walls. >> We were grip today and he's like, "There's no picture of my family up there cuz we have the pictures of our families and stuff." I was like, I don't even know if a picture can hold that smile. >> I bet he smiled real big, didn't he? >> He did. He got real big. >> Did y'all kiss after? >> We don't talk about music playing in the background. >> Yeah, that that was a very sweet moment. How come you're never tender with like anybody else other than Jake Winkler? Apparently, >> I'm tender with a lot of people who >> I say nice things to you. >> When's the last night? >> Nice to me. Ryan's nice to me. >> I didn't get on a woman pastor >> like you did today. >> I worked to get to I work alone. >> You work alone for me. What is your as uh solidarity? Um what man? I don't even know. >> You You showed up in Cologne cuz you can't give him any curve. >> It's cool water by Dav Black. Uh Doli is Dolce and Gabbana. >> All right. Tell us about it. Ryan, you know what? I had I've owned >> Is that poor people cologne? >> No, it's >> there is no poor people cologne. >> Not true. gas station cologne throw in that strange I don't know >> I don't buy it. >> So here's here's the sad thing about it. >> It was bought for you. >> And I'm not trying to get like I haven't smelled the black. I my I had light blue. >> I'm wearing it right now. >> Just lean over there, bud. Lean over there. Get in there. Get you get you. >> What do you think? >> Spicy. I like it. >> Spicy. >> It's got a little musk. >> Little musky spicy. >> But uh No. I had Dolen Gabbana light blue. It's too powdery. Didn't like it. >> Powdery. >> Like baby powder. >> Yeah. I It's like a lime and a powder. So, I switched it out with my brother from for some terday Hermes. >> It's just more musky. >> What did he just Will into cologne yet? >> Uh, he's got No, not really. >> My son just got three of them for Christmas. He's young. First time, right? >> Oh, yeah. >> They got him three cologn for Christmas. >> Grandparents. And then they were explaining to him how to put it on. Oh, yeah. No more than one squirt, maybe two. Don't let Don't Don't let it drip on the table cuz it might take the varnish off. And he's like, "Well, is it safe for my skin?" >> So, that's what I was going to say. >> They gave him time. >> This week on one of the social media deals, I saw a post that was about a guy was going through a video and talking about how bad it is for your organ of your skin to have cologne on it. And it was like never put it on your skin. And I thought of you cuz I mean like I did the same thing like on my wrist, on my neck. >> But this guy was saying he was like do not put it into on your skin. It absorbs into your pores. All those chemicals enter your body. >> It passes the blood brain barrier because the way that I would do it, again, I am I am a novice because we found that little bottle of cool water that's been here since I lived here. Like it was fermented, man. >> And when I sprayed it on, I had to like change my shirt. It was too much. But what I would do is I would like basically stand on one end of my bathroom and I would go >> and then I would just walk through like the waft. And so it wasn't like on any particular area. But like that is not a I did not learn that from an afficionado. That is just something that I started doing at some point. Picked it up. >> Axe body spray kind of setup. >> No, that the axe body spray is the Z, right? You go from pit to pit across and then you know the nether room. >> You do a little extra extra down the line >> just in case. Do you have activities coming up? >> It's a Z and an O. >> Yeah, I do spray on the front, spray on the back, spray the wrist twice, and then tap. >> You're cooked, man. You're cooked. >> I'm worried about this guy now. >> It's all good. I used deodorant with uh what is what's it called? >> Aluminum. >> Aluminum in He basically puts Reynolds wrap uh in his armpits. Dude, you're screwed. You know, I heard the aluminum thing is a is a myth. >> Really? >> Just like said about spraying your your skin, but you know, we'll roll with it. >> I don't know. I saw it on about a 4minute video online. >> And the longer the video online, the more the more >> legit it wasn't it wasn't I I only have Facebook, so it had to be >> Well, here's here's the thing with some of that. So, we don't have to worry about that cuz we are all drinking Jaco Go, which if you use the Yucka app and scan this, this is basically the only energy drink in existence that doesn't come up with like a score of zero out of 100. But when you look at people that are like doing breakdowns of the different chemicals that are in, you know, different products or whatever, >> then you'll have somebody come out there and say, "Here's what, you know, the CDC or here's what this study shows is a, you know, harmful amount of this whatever chemical or powder or something like that that you have to consume in a day." And it's always like 200 times what'sever in the can or the bottle or something like that. And so it's just kind of like so I don't know if it's just the mixture of it all over a long period cuz you know I'm not necessarily as worried because when you get cancer you can never really typically find the source unless it's like lung cancer and you smoke marble reds every single day it's like all right I think we know the source a lot of cancers kind of come out of left field and so for a lot of people they don't really understand. I'd be more worried about, you know, people that are just pounding monsters every day or something like that and then they're having li liver enzyme issues. Like I had a buddy who does two or three zins at a time and then he's hitting, you know, bangs every, you know, every four or five hours. Goes to the doctor. He's in his 30s. He's like, "Dude, your liver is [inaudible]. Do you drink alcohol every day?" He's like, "No, I never drink." And then the next question was, "What about energy drinks?" He's like, >> "Yeah, two or three of those a day." The tall boys. And so, a >> little bit concerning. >> So, these are these are pretty good though right? >> Yeah. I drink these all the time. >> Yeah. So, because I have that what the app's called, Y UK Ka. And so, you can walk into any store, scan the barcode, and it could be a, you know, a lotion or it can be shampoo or it can be like a bag of chips or a drink and it'll give you a score of zero out of 100. 100 is basically like pure spring water or something like that. And a zero is basically every energy drink. Basically, everything in the gas station is going to be between like zero and five. It's not technically food, but some of the things it'll like dock you if it's got too many calories, too much sodium, too much fat, which you don't need to worry about that, but then you can click on it and it'll show you the additives and it'll show you like, okay, here's the green additives. Have you never not seen it before? >> Never seen it. >> All right. Uh, hold on. Let me grab a phone. >> That's interesting. >> What do you think of the new uh pyramid? >> That's what I was going to ask. Has that make sense? Has that been approved? >> I don't know. >> Is that approved in your house? >> Is it approved in my house? We've been doing more of that than the other for a while. >> All right, so check this out. So, hand me the or show me the barcode, Russ. >> All right, so again, the app is YUK. It looks like a carrot on the cover. And so there's a little scanner. So, bada boom. And so, it gives it a score out of 100. And so, that is a 69 out of 100. So, if you look at it, it's got the saturated fat, sugar, sodium, blah blah blah. But what you'll notice is there's one additive, but it's not none of it is risky, right? So, you can go to more information. Citric acid. So, that is an additive, but it's not a risky additive. But we don't have anything else that we can scan up here. But like if I literally scanned >> a can of like C4 or prime or something like that, it's going to be like zero or one out of 100. Like Cheetos are basically zero. Um but it basically it'll tell you right there. You can click on the additives and it'll have green additives which are not risky. Yellow, which is like a little bit sketch, and then red is basically like you're going to die >> now. And how does this place receive revenue >> donations, right? So you can donate x number of dollars per per month, but like and then you could go to recommendations. So it'll look so I it looks at stuff I've scanned before. not paid by the companies that are selling. >> Who actually knows? >> Who actually knows? But then you can you can look at different things that I've scanned. I've scanned like, you know, those little meat sticks and it'll show everything you scan. Let's go through the history. >> All right. So, uh, we got Builder's protein bar. Not good. We have the good crisp aged white cheddar. Not good. >> Christmas tree cakes. >> Christmas tree cakes. >> Oh, funny thing about that. Let's talk about Christmas tree cakes because if we go back to the cockshure shirt, >> we got the Christmas tree cake on there because we were in the middle of Christmas tree cake season when that whole idea came because if you remember our table had like, you know, Christmas tree cakes and stuff like that everywhere around it. >> So, uh, while we're recording this, we're recording this in early January of 2026. Um, we are out of the Christmas season, right? You know, the the Christmas trees have been put away, the lights been taken off the houses, >> and yet >> All right, still got a wink. One is this one of the 2-year-old >> boy. No, this one fresh. This one's fresh. This is the last Christmas tree cake of the season. And I'm going to eat it myself. You can't have this. You thought I was going to hand this to you? What are you talking about? >> I was like, there ain't no way we could pass this thing around. No, this one's mine. I want a little bite. I I miss that waxy feeling on the, you know, roof of your That's That's carnuval wax. >> That should that shouldn't even go in your hair. It's about to go into your body, son. And you're worried about my voice. >> You want a pinch off? You want a little pinch? You want a little pinch of this? Come on, man. You know, all the kids are doing >> I'm on the new father. >> I got I got to wear that cockshure shirt next episode. So, hey, speaking of shirts, I'm wearing this one because Can I say it? >> I don't know. >> I mean, this is a little bit in the past, but my Bears beat the Packers last night. >> This is going to be so far in the past. Everyone's going to be like, "What a weird excited." >> I know. I'm just happy they're probably not going to make it to the Super Bowl. >> Are you going to start painting your fingernails like your quarterback? Nope. >> Little zesty. >> Little zest. >> Quarterback is a little zesty, right? Yeah. >> Don't get him and Carl Anthony Towns in the same room. I think it could get >> it could get a little bit awkward. But hey, >> I'm just happy to beat the Packers. >> Well, >> twice, >> right? So, well, hey, you know what could be funny about this? What's that? >> Is let's say that, you know, the world kind of like the universe kind of tears in half a little bit and let's say the Bears win the Super Bowl cuz by the time this comes out, the Super Bowl will have come and gone. >> Yeah, it will. >> Can you imagine what this would look like here? You are so excited about getting a win on wild card weekend. >> I'm just happy to get the win. I mean, we're the Bears hadn't even been to the playoffs really since 2018. Yeah. >> Been a while. >> So, or won their conference. So, >> there you go. >> Yeah. No, I mean, I'm just happy with the win against the Packers. Like, do do I think there's a chance they can do the Super Bowl? Anything can happen if the tomb is empty. So, I don't think that applies. Well, I'm not sure. So, you better say sorry, Joby right now. That's big time. We need a sorry Joby jar that we just like like a cussing jar like >> sorry fraternity house where you know will start spreading. >> I mean I mean every time someone's like do you think it's possible? I'm like anything's possible too. >> That's true. Hey, how's your mouth feel Russ? >> It's good. I've got a nice coating. >> Nice little veneer all over your mouth. Well, hey guys. Uh we've jacked around enough. I don't know how long we jacked around because we don't have a timer in the middle of the table anymore. That thing has been thrown to the Nether regions or whatever they call it in Lord of the Rings. But we're going to be going back to Romans 4. And so, uh, for those of you that are new to the show, you might be thinking, I thought this was a Bible study podcast. It is a Bible study podcast, but what we're doing at the forging table is typically we were going through books of the Bible an hour at a time, one chapter at a time. With Genesis, we would double or triple up some chapters based on kind of what we were going through. But just going back to the original idea, I like, you know, about once a month, reminding everybody this, everybody got together on the back porch, uh, except Ryan. He was, uh, he was too good for us. And then we just kind of talked about what we wanted to do next. And we talked about Romans. And then all of us kind of felt the immediate burden of, oh, Romans. Not that we weren't excited, but it was like that's that's quite the undertaking. And as um Matt Chandler has said before, Romans is Mount Everest. >> And you don't try to climb Mount Everest as quickly as possible. You do it as appropriately as pos as possible in terms of speed. And so what we just decided from the beginning is we're just going to go through Romans as fast as it takes us to get through it uh sufficiently. So as a group, we've had different groups that were able to cover a handful of verses at a time. Some groups have been able to do maybe even a chapter. And even Russ, we were talking before this like, hey, how far do you really think we'll get today? And it's like considering what we're about to finish up in chapter 4 and what's coming at the beginning of chapter 5, >> you know, it's going to be substantial. But for you guys, again, I know it can be a little bit difficult and a little bit hard uh for some of you guys that are like, "Oh, I kind of forgot where we're at in Romans." Because again, this was a letter that was meant to be read all at once. It was usually read in public to a, you know, eklesia gathering of folks. Um, but just try this with your Sunday school group, with your home group, with your with your men's Bible study or something like that because I've seen men's Bible studies that just they just plow right through Romans. They do one chapter a week >> and you know that's 4 months and so you know but basically with Romans that's like looking at a landscape from an airplane right you can tell where the water is you can tell where the grass is where the neighborhoods are but you don't know what's going on on the ground and so we're we're trying to get more of a ground level view of what's going on with Romans. And so uh the reason why we don't cover a whole lot of ground on this is because we typically jack around just a little bit but then also we are uh trying to give some uh some difference to the text. So, we're going to launch in starting in Romans 4:13 and 14. And so, Zach, since this is your return appearance to the forging table, we got to get you back to reading out loud. He'll be reading from the ESV. Is everybody ESV today, Russ? >> And what is it? This is >> ESV. And is that NASBY over there? Okay. Everybody's ESV. So, we're reading from the ESV here. So, if you'll read Romans 4 13 and 14. For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. For if it is the adherence of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. And so really the entirety of the letter up to this point has been about faith. And then we can get into okay where does faith come from? How does the faith get into us? You know righteousness, how does it get to us? Okay, imputed righteousness. we can start looking there. But again, he is continuing to hammer home where the promise comes from, right? So even like in the ESV um that the title of the section is the promise realized through the law. Oops. Nope, that's not what it says. It's through faith, right? And so I think even in our modern moment for for those of us that have been believers for the longest, Zach, you've been a believer for the the least amount of time of all of us, but we're still how many years in? Uh five, right? So 5 years in me teenager kid kid, right? You you were you you know you've talked a lot about how kind of you were more culturally Christian. Yeah. Exactly. But again this whole thing is don't we just kind of naturally want to buck up against words like this like Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Faith. Yeah. All that kind of stuff. >> But where's the list of stuff I get to do? >> Right. >> Right. Let me let me do some stuff. >> Thoughts. Fire away. Ryan, we know you have thoughts. >> I always have thoughts. >> Well, just go. That's what we're doing. I I got to eat this Christmas tree cake, but I can't do it while there's dead air. >> I know, but I'm just trying to think like I never really bucked up against this. That's why I'm trying to figure out >> even in your cultural Christianity days, >> like with faith and like doing good things. I mean, if if I go back to my cultural Christianity days, it would be like I I've done all these good things. I went and like I was going to a church and that church, you know, never really talked about I think one of the things that they said was like if you want to get closer to God, you need to go out and do something for somebody and like that's a great thought if you think about it. I think it's an awesome thought, you know, but never did they push me into actually reading the word or or or examining my faith. And so I would go out there and think that my good works are what saved me. And I think that's something that kind of like made me realize when somebody asked me that question when I, you know, like, you know, why, you know, what's the gospel? Christ died on the cross for my sins. Why, you know, well, it's not because I have faith that Christ is my propitiation. It's because, well, I'm a good person, you know, um, he died for me because I'm a good person. And it's just like, no, there's there's no amount of works. And that's when you got to kind of discover the law and understand the law. And the law is there to show God's righteousness and to be a mirror, I think, is what Wesuff uh, has said before. That's right. >> And so if we can look at >> the mirror can't clean you up. It can only get smudged. >> Yeah. It can only get smudged up. And so that's where it's like now I got to rely on my faith. And then like some of the things that you have to look at too is uh I think I was reading in in Sproul's commentary, Sproul said he was in college and one of the guys in his class asked a question to everybody. He said um I said to them, uh you know, how many people uh here think they're going to heaven? and and like they were like everybody kind of hesitated because everybody wants to be humble. >> Did I use that right? >> Yeah. >> Didn't have humbleness or they wanted to have humility even. >> Yeah. And so uh you know so they they they have we have humility and we're going to be like you know especially I think as a believer now and knowing that grace through faith sometimes I know that I'm depraved and sometimes in my mind I don't have that assurance that I I'm I'm saved. Like Kyle always says, anybody who, you know, reads a John MacArthur uh sermon or or book is always worried about their their salvation, but we need to be assured through this through faith that we are we are saved. We are saved through Christ through what he did on the cross. And should we should be boastful about it. And we'll talk about that when we talk about rejoicing in certain chapters. But like when we when they bring up rejoice, it's rejoicing. It's being boastful in what Christ has done for us. Isn't it interesting that this is I think he has to hammer it home because it's where you go automatically. I've done good things so I'm going to go to heaven hopefully. It's you know all the people that I've talked to who weren't Christians. This was the default answer. It's like an instinctive thing. Makes me think about that Trump um did you see him flying on Air Force One and they were asking him questions about heaven and and he said, "Oh, I'm not going to go to heaven. I've done too many." And so many of the folks that responded to him were like, "That's the position that you really should be in uh if you're truly grappling with this." >> Can I actually I want to elucidate just a couple of quick things. So I'll say this quickly so I can just Anyway, there's been a young man uh that was lost in Oklahoma in Chicochet, Oklahoma, a 10-year-old whose parents had been arrested and they couldn't find this 10-year-old boy. It was feared that he had been uh murdered or they Anyway, they just found him alive and healthy and all that. literally just got a text. So, praise God for that. Me and the boys uh prayed for prayed for him last night and I it was one of those prayers where you're like, >> Jesus look good. He's been gone for a while. >> Yeah, it did not did not look good. So, anyway, there's that. >> Thank you, Lord. >> But this actually came up, Zach, a little bit recently. Um because again, where does grace come through? It come it comes through faith. Where does righteousness come from? It is imputed to us, given to us. That's a one-way street which again that man we could we could just spend all day with that in terms of you know reformed theology and things like that but um there was a gal I kind of hesitate to say her name but I have said it on the on the show before but we'll just say she is an u she works with only fans uh this is a gal who has become world famous for doing what is again this is on Donna life a man's podcast so guys you know keep that in mind for doing gang bangs for for having sex with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of men um in in a very short period of time. And then here somewhat recently to the recording of this, there was a video released online of her being baptized. And the immediate reaction from Christians was no chance. There's just no way. This is some sort of a ploy. And guys, by the time y'all are hearing this, she may have this may have been a ploy for, you know, maybe she's going to do a gang bang in in a what used to be a church, right? You know, this this is some of the things that this woman has done to say total depravity. For some of you, you can't even stomach some of the things that has been just widely reported on the evening news about what this gal has done uh with herself and to herself. But I remember about a year or two ago, she there was uh I think it was uh Vice News or one of those types of news things. She was doing one of those having sex with a bunch of men in a short period of time videos and it was done and here's this reporter talking to her afterwards and she's talking about it like she just went and got groceries. But then very very temporarily she breaks down crying and it wasn't a rough question that she was asked. It was like all at once she was faced with what she had done >> and what she had allowed to be done to her and what likely was done to her as a child which led to the behavior that she's saying. Now, again, I don't I don't know that, but it's just, you know, an educated guess. But then she snapped right back into, you know, business lady mode, right? And her mother is a part of her business, by the way. Her mother is her business director. She was helping her get cleaned up in between shots and all that. So, there's some some generational depravity. But I was so disappointed in the way Christians initially reacted >> because let's say she is faking it. Okay, you get to be right. Congratulations. But let's say she's not. Are you saying because of her specific flavor of depravity that that's somehow different? Indeed, I remind you that the Apostle Paul who wrote the the letter to the church in Rome was a murdering terrorist. He hunted Christians and slaughtered and killed them. Um and so that that's kind of one of those things, Zach, to where it's just like certain people, especially within Christianom, they're not rooting for the extra depraved, right? I mean, uh, Jeffrey Dawnmer supposedly was saved right before, you know, he he went to heaven or sorry, right before he was executed. And I remember people on the podcast being like, "Wait a minute, the guy that like raped men and cut off pieces of their body and ate them and blah blah blah and all that." And we just think like, "Oh, depraved. Like, yeah, I cheated on my taxes once and you know, I've, you know, I've, you know, kicked the ball back into the fairway whenever I was actually in the woods." But we don't actually think of it in these terms, >> right? So it reminds me I mean that whole scenario just reminds me of who is the prophet that married Goomemer. >> Um she was the prostitute and he basically said go and marry marry this prostitute. They had kids. one of them uh God did kind of a play on their names uh with some stuff, but he was basically making him make a point to the people of Israel at that time to say >> this is this is the same as what our relationship is like like this holiness that I have and then the depravity that you have. This doesn't seem right that we would be in a bridal relationship with each other and that you would she actually leaves him at one point. He has to go and reclaim her back. And it's this whole foreshadowing of what happens with us with Christ. And so like the idea isn't that like, oh, go find the goomers. We're all the goomer. All go. >> We're all the goomer. I mean, we're all the we're all that person that the that the uh vileeness of who we are in flesh is that um there's separation. And the whole the whole beauty of this is that God loves us enough to provide his son and that and that son has done this. So like whenever you say like push back against this, my push back on this is actually a little bit like I find myself used to struggle the other way in the sense that I was never really assured of my salvation. It was like a every night, you know, like >> you had to reearn it, >> man. Well, okay. What were the things that I did? Uh let me go through those. man, I hope I don't miss one cuz if I miss one, that's still something on my ledger that I didn't take care of. So, it was almost like name it, claim it to the maximum extent of feeling like as a kid that if if I didn't name it and claim salvation over that particular sin, uh that sin was going to stay with me. And uh and so I mean this right here whenever you read this, it just paints a picture of a much a much bigger God um to to help us move into this idea that we're saved by grace. >> Yeah. And I'll I'll mention this and I'm hesitant to do this. I'm going to get to it in just a minute. >> Y >> Jay Rynisner, shout out to him. I think he was on the pulpit and this was maybe two years ago and somehow in his sermon, I think this is how it came up. somebody had asked him a question about what is one of the most impactful things to your Christian walk um you know that that you've experienced and he basically said once I got my head around saving grace it changed everything for me and that's that set with me because it's easy to read these words over and over just like Paul has to you know hammer it home over and over but to really understand it uh is something that I spent a lot of time thinking about to go to the jiu-jitsu world which I can't claim but I can at least use an example It seems like if you're secure in your capability or secure in your position like it you know where you've arrived at you're just you're operating from a position of complete confidence which just you know gives you peace with your circumstances and enables you to be really effective and kind and all of that if you choose to. And I think in this case if you truly accept grace then you're not you're not you're not struggling against all these things. you're you're free to be at peace with God and and hopefully listen to what he's guiding you to do. >> I think what we as Christians kind of forget about and even when we think about new Christians is sanctification. >> Yeah. >> Like we're a process. >> It's a process. We're continually being sanctified. I mean, >> I'm continually being sanctified, you know? my my sin may be different in the fact of whatever her name is, you know, but like she's going to make mistakes along the way, you know, and then it's just is she surrounding herself with the people that can help her grow. >> Well, cuz there was another gal and and again, the reason why sometimes I hesitate with the names is because some of you guys have problems with that and you're immediately going to go and look up that name and then you were a click away from some stuff that would be very very harmful to you and and hurt the heart of God. But Brian, you you make a good point with sanctification that it's a journey and a process because there was another gal that did only only fans who about a year or two ago came out as a Christian. And the thing for her is she was immediately giving speaking speaking opportunities at like you know these big events for like conservatives and Christianity and blah blah blah and just all these like you know fundamentalist traditionalist fuddy duddy people were just like she can't be up there and she can't all that. We don't know if it's true and we don't know and all those things. And I was like, "Okay, yeah, if we all got, you know, hornswaggled, that's not a thing, but I just made it up. If we get if we get that >> if we get shanghide at some point and this was all kind of a ploy to help make money, okay, you got got, some people get got, but it's like what a beautiful example of the gospel." And then same thing with like Russell Brand. People were like, "Wait a minute." Cuz he was like baptizing people and they're like, "Wait, he can't be baptizing people yet. He's not of this." And he's like, "Yeah." And I was like, "Why the hell not?" Right? Because initially, do you remember why people said that Russell Brand was pretending to become a Christian? Because he had a bunch of laws, sexual uh, you know, misconduct issues and things like that. People like, "Oh, he's just claiming Christian." I was like, "In the UK, he's going to claim Christianity to preserve him from those things." They will kill him for two different reasons then as opposed to one. >> But everybody knew who Russell Brand was. Like I knew who Russell Brand was. Like, and Russell Brand in his book tells you who he is, you know? And he'll even come back and say it. He's like, "Man, I had a bunch of sexual sin back then. you know, I did stupid things and like that takes a lot for somebody to come out and do and come out and say. And so, you know, people are being sanctified. I'm being sanctified daily. We're all being sanctified daily. You got to give people the benefit of the doubt. And honestly, if there not people in your circle that you can't really say anything to, then maybe just keeping your mouth shut and wishing the best is the best thing possible and pray for. >> So, back to Zach's point, it's kind of like from what are we working from? So if we go to verse 15, for the law brings wrath, >> but there but where there is no law, there is no transgression. Okay. So um you know the the condemnation of the law, this is the ESV expository commentary from Crossway, the law's condemnation has been removed by grace. Y okay. So we cannot be condemned by the law. But going back to your example, like, okay, yeah, when you get to a certain level of uh, you know, personal training, whether it's with jiu-jitsu or or with uh with firearms or something like that, you feel more comfortable in certain situations. And I look at it uh I always think it's funny. So, uh, Lady Horn, this was a couple years ago in Sunday school, there was like a bang somewhere down the hallway or like somewhere in the lobby, like in the middle of Sunday school class. There's a loud noise and it startled her and she was immediately like, I think I need to be worried. But then she looked around at some of the guys in our Sunday school and none of us looked worried. And I remember she told you or told Kelsey, my wife later, she's like Kelsey. I don't remember. She's Yeah. Well, she I think she told Kelsey then. She just goes, "I I got real nervous today in Sunday school, but then like I looked at she looked at the people in the room that she knows are are carrying or, you know, are okay with with violence and that kind of thing and they all looked calm and I was like, "Okay, then I get to be calm." That's the same type of >> engagement that your family should feel, not only just from like a sheep dog standpoint of being able to protect them, but just spiritually speaking, right? When they're in the dark night of the soul of some kind, when anyone in your family is kind of up against it. We were talking with someone who uh I'll tell you off air who it was, but um their child is experiencing some significant spiritual oppression. >> That's the only explanation. You could pretend like it's a medical thing, but it is spiritual in nature. And the example it was basically she'll wake up and she can't get up. >> Mhm. >> She feels like something is sitting on her chest, sitting on her neck and she can't get up. Well, I've talked to a lot of guys that have had something like that and it's spiritual in nature there. There's nothing in the body like, "Oh, I ate a banana before I went to bed and then I woke up and I couldn't, you know, I couldn't move." Like, it's not like an allergy. And so it's but do you have the the ability to work from not the law like I checked all these boxes so I should be able to to lead this family in this way or to fight against spiritual oppression. It's like no we've been given grace through faith. The law simply exposes man's sinfulness right? It's just a mirror as Wes Huff said but that's not what we're working from. We're working from the imputed righteousness. >> Let me read this. So this is Hebrews 11:39 and this is just talking about kind of set this up. This is this is the cloud of witnesses the the u the list of the faithful and how that a lot of them were faithful but they didn't get to see the fruition of what God's promise was. >> And so this is what it says after it talked about some of them. It says and all these though commended through their faith did not receive what was promised since God had provided something better for us that apart from us they should not be made perfect. It's this circle back to the idea that he's saying that what you guys have actually completes what they have and what they had actually completes what you had. This idea that we need to depart from the Old Testament. We would be taking apart what what we were made to be the completion of for these people to see through faith that they couldn't see in their own lifetimes. they will see with the connection of us coming to God through faith through Jesus Christ. They had faith in something that they didn't even really be able to understand what it was if not for us receiving it from this side. So the idea that that we can get away from that we we need to know what they had and what their faith was in to fully understand what it is to have the grace that we receive. And I think when it comes back to where you brought up, you know, like new Christians or people that we're worried about, it's like it goes back to the oracles that we talked about in chapter 3. And I'm going to be more concerned about people who have the oracles of God that make mistakes than people who have made mistakes before becoming Christians and trying to be sanctified. I think that's something that we have to really look at when we look at the law. For the law brings wrath, but there is no law. where there is no law, there's no transgressions, you know, and so like those people didn't even know that they've trans transgressed. Their eyes were open to it. >> They decided to become put their faith in Christ and become believers. But like what do we do about the ones, you know, like >> who there was a Philip Yansy that just came up recently >> and how he had an affair for eight years. It's like I think he put out a very good article or not article but letter about repentance of that and everything and that's great but it's like that's where it's like why are we not not worried about these people but we're worried about these new people you know it's like hey let's let's coach these people or help these people. Let's let's pour into these people and help them grow and then with these people let's pray for them. Let's let's pray for our leaders and stuff like that. >> Well, let me actually Okay. So what I think we should do is so for this episode we'll just cover 13 through 15 and then next week we'll start in 16 because really with with with this next paragraph it would not be a a good thing for the text to cut it off before we get to 25 before the end of the chapter. And so next week we'll go from uh 16 through 25 likely. But I I want to kind of park here for a second as as we wrap this episode. >> Um the concept of finishing well >> because that came up in Sunday school this morning. So about, you know, at the beginning of the year, we kind of get together as a group and today, my god, there were 70 people in our Sunday school. I say that like that's crazy. You you've been in like the biggest Sunday school class ever, but it's probably the best one in the entire state. Shout out Terry Fakes. But um we we kind of talk about like what what are some of the rhythms of the class? Like what what are the things we want to start doing, stop doing? Um but also we we talk about what are the different subjects we'd like to cover because we don't have a teacher of our Sunday school. We have a group of guys. So, Zach has taught, Ryan has taught, I've taught, and um you know, what are some of the things that we want to do? And some people brought up some topical things and some people brought up you know, family and parenting and you know, we have a multigenerational group. And so, we have people that are empty nesters and we have people that have littles, right? They're in baby jail. But one of the things that came up, one of the tables ideas, the gal just kind of mentioned it as an aside. It was the concept of finishing well. And so when you look at famous Christians, right, you could start looking at, you know, your Steve Lawson's or Philip Yansy or these these people that started so well but didn't finish well. Now some people don't finish well because they get pulled into monies or honeys, right? And so that that takes them out. >> Or they don't finish well because they start questioning everything. >> They start putting their preferences above what the word says, right? So maybe they started with thinking >> so like a like a Russell Moore like I even right now I'm I'm worried for for Kirk Cameron uh for him talk kind of getting into the annihilationist camp right because typically that's like the gateway drug for universalism and thinking well the God that I know is too loving to allow >> for that and then it kind of gets into hell. The the main point that I want to kind of get into is you have so many faithful people that fall off and don't finish well. And another version of not finishing well are the guys that are in the sage stage of their lives. You have these young guys that are just sponges ready to soak up wisdom from somebody that's farther along the path. But these guys are content with sitting on a dock somewhere and fishing, >> sitting in their, you know, their lazy boy and watching television, you know, following their fantasy football team or they're probably not playing fantasy football, but following their favorite football team or something like that as opposed to pouring into these young men that maybe aren't even related to them, but those are arrows that get shot into the next generation and those people have kids and all that. >> But I think, >> hey, on that on that point, I was going to say, do you know what the stat is for what happens to men and and couples when they retire? like how they spend their day. Do you know what it is? >> No. >> It's seven hours of TV. >> Wow. >> That is the stat in the United States just for reference. >> So, and then that is associated directly with a decline in your cognitive ability followed by basically hospital life. >> Yeah. >> Right. And then those same people like you know if you're spending that much time on television, you're probably not taking care of your body. >> You can't get on and off the toilet. Well, if you you can't stop your momentum, you fall down, you break a hip, and then you die. Right. >> So, there's an incentive. Get to church. Work with the young generations. Do something. >> Yeah. And so I I just want to kind of talk through that a little bit because that's honest to goodness that's kind of terrifying to me because here we are not wishing people well as they start their journey because we just want to pick at oh Russ you know uh Russell Brand said this and it wasn't exactly right or oh these two only fans you people that they're probably just still and we you know they're probably not actually safe. It's that kind of thing. But then also it's like there are people whose sanctification journeys are not done but they think they're fully formed right? They think they're done. They have nothing more to gain. They have nothing more to give. And from where we sit, right, it's like, "Oh, that seems crazy." But it probably seemed crazy to them when they were in their 30s and 40s. Now here they are sitting around watching, you know, reruns of the Price is Right. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Warren Wearsby, who's kind of a, you know, a pastor of pastors. I watched several of his things. And one thing that he did very intentionally at the end of his life is he made time and space to go sit in the youth programs. and he said the vitality and energy that I got out of that was incredible versus you know in the exchange that he could give. >> Yeah. >> Which has definitely been a model. >> I've been reading uh uh uh oh Joy's new book >> uh Stan Fermanac like men and it talks about a >> that's another sorry Joby that you didn't remember. >> Yeah. Sorry Joby. >> There it is if we I'm sorry Joby. I'm in the middle of reading it right now. So um >> and it's leaving an impact obviously. >> Obviously I've had a I've had a very long day Joby. So, uh, >> it's early afternoon, Joby. He's full of crap. All right. >> Middle school today. You try to teach middle school. >> Yeah. >> Those kids, they're great. Um, no. Um, but like he talks about an elder in their in their church who, uh, he's like in his 90s and he's going on mission trips and everybody's like worried about him. They're like, "Hey, he's getting up there." And it's like, "This guy's in his 90s going on mission trips." It's like that's what I want to be when I'm 90 years old because it's like >> if I'm not fulfilling the mission that God wants me to fulfill which is to spread his gospel then like what what's the point you know what's the point in keeping going and that's where it's like when we talk about finishing well it's like it it breaks my heart when I hear of like Russell Moors or Kurt Cameron's and stuff like that like you know God can do anything God can pull anybody back and that's fine but some things break people's brains like for Russell Moore it was Trump for Kurt Cameron, it's annihilationism, you know, and it's so it's just like we need to pray for those guys. And like I think me coming out of my cage stage, like usually I be like like mark and avoid, mark and avoid. Like there's people you should mark and avoid, but there's also people that you just need to have a little bit of grace for, you know? Um I don't totally write off Russell Moore. I love pre Russell Moore 2015 stuff. It anything 2015 and below, it's like I still use, you know? And so it's just like we should not only should we pray for those new Christians, we should pray for these guys to finish well. >> And that's the thing with the the Kirk Cameron stuff is, you know, he's he's open to people you like having debates and by the time this comes out, I think he's doing like an open discussion about the different viewpoints on on salvation, annihilationism, like all that kind of stuff. And so, but the the point being is >> certain types of sins put you out of the pulpit for forever or should put you out of the pulpit for forever. But for us, we should not be rooting for some like I'm not rooting for Steve Lawson to fall completely to pieces. No. >> Like I would love it if you know one day we pop up and you know we look at our phones and okay, Steve Lawson has passed away, you know, former pastor, you know, disgraced pastor or whatever the people would say. But then I want to hear stories about in the latter stages of his life, >> he wasn't preaching from, you know, John MacArthur's pulpit. wasn't teaching at a seminary, but maybe he was discipling 10 men at his church, right? That were in their 20s, some that had family, some that were about to get married and all that >> cuz that's finishing well. It's not finishing big, right? Because I think he is perhaps permanently disqualified. But it's like you're finishing well in a category for you. It's like that guy who's in that little Baptist church in, you know, butthole, Wyoming, and he's just basically like, "All right, he's he's got 40 people in his church, but he is shephering and serving them super duper well. He's never going to have a book deal. He's never going to have a podcast. He's never going to get get invited to preach at Passion Conference or whatever." But the dude is just finishing well with his flock. >> If you're repentant, you can be redeemed to the body. And being redeemed to the body is people can learn from your past mistakes. Like whenever I said butthole Wyoming, did that actually come out of my mouth? >> I think I blacked out there for a second. >> I've said I've said stupider things on here, so we've talked about apologize. >> This guy, you just can't take him anywhere. The things he says, >> I say stupid things, but no, but like you can be redeemed to the body, but you can't be redeemed to the pulpit, right? >> You know, but if you're redeemed to the body, finish well. Finish. Let people learn from your sin and your mistakes, you know. Um, and I think you hit the nail on the head there. We have >> I do have a question on that redeemed to the pulpit where what what are we talking about there like as as far as um where that's where that's from and like what would be the disqualification >> before somebody could be redeemed to the pulpit? >> What do you mean >> like like what would be the markers of unredeemable to the pulpit versus >> cheating on your wife for eight years >> or cheating on your wife period. If you we're talking about the body of Christ, if you cheat on your wife, honestly, like my whole thing is you're not redeemable to the pulpit. >> Okay. And there are multiple schools of thought. Yeah. >> Yeah. I'm I'm asking kind of the reference. Is there like somewhere that there's a list that kind of outlines like what we're talking about there? >> So, primary qualifications. So, in Acts 20, Titus 1, uh 1 Timothy. So, if we just look at 1 Timothy 3 1-7, we're looking above repro reproach, husband of one wife. So, you know, when we we talk about female pastors and things like that, just the fact that it says husband of one wife, there are two indications in that one small little phrase about that are gendered. And so that that basically removes any ability for a woman to to be a pastor or to uh preach in front of a mixed crowd. So minded, self-controlled respectable hospitable, able to teach, not a drunker, not violent, but gentle, not quarrelome, not a lover of money, me uh manages his own household well, not a recent convert, well thought thought of by outsiders. Um, >> now these are for a deacon. >> No, these are for an elder. So, if you go to Titus one. Okay. An elder must be blameless, faithful to his wife, a man whose children believe, and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. >> Since an overseer manages God's household, he must be blameless, not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. Rather, he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. So do we do we believe that elders that fall off of any of that could be redeemed back to eldership? >> So that is the debate. So that is a debate from which there are are multiple u lines of view. And so there are people that think okay so let's let's take a very famous example Carl Lince. So there are people that are like okay Carl Lince permanently disqualified from leading a church and leading a flock from being a shepherd. He disqualified himself but he's not disqualified from the body. Right? Then there are other people that are like, "No, what a redemption story, right?" So he can he can repent and, you know, he's regained his marriage. He technically never lost it, but he's, you know, regained his trust with his wife and, you know, eventually he will lead his own church. I don't know where he's at right now. Last thing I saw, he was messing around with that big doofus up in Tulsa. Um, but like um Michael Michael Todd, what guy? Anyway, but so so that's that's the debate, Russ, honestly, is like, okay, >> is there permanency for if you violate one of these, right? Because you could go to one that's not as sexy, >> or is it a Peter's situation of he he denied Christ and then he he's still redeemed back to Christ after the resurrection? >> Is it only a New Testament thing? I mean, what about David, >> right? >> David was a king. David wasn't a prophet. >> Well, we're talking about prophets, pastors. He was not he was not a shepherd. Like he was he was not >> he was not like a prophet. He was not like a Samuel. >> But he was considered priest at the time, was he not? >> I don't believe so. >> I mean priest or king. He was king. >> Yeah. >> I thought he carried both titles. >> No. >> Okay. >> Cuz he relied on Samuel and Nathan. >> Oh, that's true. >> And so the the thing that it comes down to is this is the New Testament church. And when you're a shepherd of a church, you have to hold to, >> you know, you have to be above reproach. M. >> And so when it comes like when you bring up Carl Lince, like Carl Lince, Carl Lince, I mean great story that his he and his wife remain married and everything, but like he can still evangelize. He can still go and but he just can't run a church. He can't shepherd a flock of people because >> he's fallen. You know, >> I just I I know some So, one of the reasons why I'm I'm curious about the list and I knew you guys could find it faster than I could is some people take that to the extent of even if someone has been divorced uh not into their own fault but has remarried after that point that they should not be um in the pulpit. >> So, I disagree I disagree with that. um if if if divorce is granted based upon um uh abandonment or >> abandonment, adultery or death. >> Death. >> And so if that happens, you can't really hold that against somebody. Um I had a we had a >> if they were the passive agent. >> Yeah. >> Right. So the other person died, the other person cheated on them or the other person abandoned them. >> We had a guy in our church at this former church I was at and they were, you know, we brought up his name as an elder, you know, and we were talking to the pastor about it. He's like, "I don't know. He's been divorced." and somebody and I asked I was like but what if he was divorced before he became a Christian and he goes well that's a separate story because he wasn't a Christian now it's it's kind of like what's his name from uh oh man Gateway >> who fell um >> oh Robert Morris >> Robert Morris so Robert Morris was a pastor when he did all the stuff that he did like he was a pastor in a pastorial role and a shepherd role when he committed the crimes that he committed now it's different from somebody who's not a Christian and who's never portrayed a Christian but became a Christian after they've committed those acts because it's goes back to the oracles the oracles of God. We have the oracles of God. We know what is righteous. We know we know what Christ wants of us but we chose to go choose to go and do these things. There's consequences to it. Now are we are we can can we not be saved or can we not be forgiven of those? Absolutely. But there's consequences to those actions. >> Hey, two two things because I know he's about to shut us down. I've got a specific question for you. But ju just as a comment though and I can't think of his name. Who was the big New York pastor that wrote a bunch of books and then passed away from cancer. >> Tim Keller. >> Tim Keller. >> Tim Keller >> also thankful for examples of of men running the race well all the way to the end. And he was presented with something that >> somewhat quibble with some of his social standings, but yeah. Go. >> You get what I'm saying. >> Yeah. >> Hey, going back to the conversation about um being secure in in where you're going and going to heaven and all that sort of thing. Where have you landed on that? And I and biblically, aren't we supposed to be assured of this? Is that the one place where we don't have to be necessarily humble in the sense that we're not sure? >> Well, when we get into to five, we're going to talk about rejoicing. And um the word that he uses for rejoicing means to boisterous. >> And so, like, I feel like that's something that we forget about is that Christ died on the cross for our sins. Our eyes have been open to the beauty of that. And we should be boastful about it. Not not arrogant about it but boastful in that what Christ has done for us. >> Confident though. >> Yeah. Confident. We should be assured that what Christ did is the propitiation. >> It's a confidence of that MacArthur described which is the farther you are along in your sanctification journey the not the more cockure that you get about how awesome you are that God chose me. You're like oh my gosh he chose me. He chose me. That's right. like your level of understanding of your own depravity should continuously go up as your sanctification process uh goes along. >> We don't we don't want people running around thinking, "Oh, maybe I'm supposed to, you know, be humble about this or not sure or waffle." That's not the message. >> You should be excited that God chose you right? >> But we also should So that doesn't take away from the idea that the scripture also calls calls us to work out our our salvation with fear and trembling. >> Yes. in the idea that internally we should always be in that posture of the the man in the back beating his chest and saying, "Oh, oh Lord, I'm not worthy." Right? >> Well, because that's total depravity, right? >> I mean, we know I think that's the beauty of it is that we know we're so depraved, we're in awe that God even chose us. And so, it's it's kind of a weird thing. It's like, "Oh, I'm not worthy, but man, I'm so glad I'm worthy." Have you ever met a guy who really uh outkicked his coverage on his wife? I'm I'm one of those. >> Um but but to to an exaggerated amount, have you ever really met a guy that outkicked his coverage? Oh, yeah. >> And he won't stop talking about it like like he's so excited. He can't believe his luck. >> He's so excited >> and he's he understands like I shouldn't be in this position, but look at what happened. Look at what happened. That's kind of the excitement along with the fear and like the the uneasiness about about like man I understand where I'm at and every time I understand where I'm at, it makes me more excited about where I'm actually at. You know, >> that's a beautiful analogy, >> right? Well, let me let me go and kind of wrap this up. I I do want to say before we get out of here, I don't feel like we we fully debated or really kind of spoke out about like kind of, you know, got got to bedrock on should people be disqualified forever if they do something on that list because if I were to steal me the other side of the argument. Uh cuz I would look at something random on this list like hospitable and I'd be like, well, I went to that guy's house once and he was he was downright rude to me, right? He didn't offer me a drink of water. He didn't do anything like Okay, so now is he disqualified forever? Again, I am not putting being inhospitable and sexual sin on the same, right? But but again, sexual sin is the one sin in the entire Bible that is described as against our own bodies. And so when people are like, "All sins are the exact same." That's like dumb church camp stuff. That's not real. >> I will say we do run the risk sometimes of we see a piece of a story or a piece of something that's happening. And now in our world, it it is so um mediadriven that we're able to understand and see all these little pieces of different stories. And sometimes I think that we may we may reach out and comment or say something about a particular uh pastor or church that really like we don't know exactly what was going on there or exactly who the person is. And I'm not saying like, oh well, we know this guy cheated all this stuff. I'm just saying in broad spectrums, we we tend to make a judgment like I'm not I'm not in that church. What I do think is that elder board that uh that deacon group, they are the ones responsible for what is happening in that church. And so just like with anything within a church, I want to encourage the members that are in charge of making those calls to say like, "Hey, uh, I know that that that church has a strong board of elders that is going to look at this carefully and I trust that they are faithful in what they're doing." That goes to a lot of things. >> Hush your butt over there, Ryan. We got to we got to land this plane here and so he got the last word. You can have the first word next week in your talk shirt. How about that? I thought it was really great what he said. >> He had to just go ahead and say something. He had to go and give his commentary. He couldn't just couldn't just let it go. Could let it go. I don't even get out of here. Well guys, we're going to have to leave it there. We'll come back here next week. We're going to start with Romans 4:16. Romans 4:16. Oh, look at the shirt. We may all be we all may do like a little bit of a a little bit of a change before we get out of here. But before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost at Undaunted Life. Our mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Don't forget, we've got a crossway starter set. We've got a logos undontunted life study bundle and we are a donationbased ministry. So if you want to help support what we're doing here, undaunted.life/donate. Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive fivestar review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@unton.life. That's info@undton.life. 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