[music] This is Undaunted [music] Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. Welcome back to the forging table. The mission of Unalted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. At the forging table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience by digging into God's word. And we're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with us. That's Caleb. That's Howard. That's Adam. Now, you guys might be wondering out there in YouTube land, Rumble land, what is up with these gigantic orange cups? Okay, they're not subtle whatsoever, but I wanted them to be here because Mama Smith, she uh so those of you have probably watched this, but back in December, we did an episode called Iron and Ash with Matt Chandler. So, iron, iron, sharpening iron. Get it? Ash. We were around a campfire. Ashes, cigars, ashes. Get it? Get it? Get it. All right, everybody got it. But as a welcome for our weekend of festivities, which not only included Adam and Matt Chandler and myself, but there was a film crew and like a whole thing. Your mom bought roughly 74 of these, what are these Stanley cups of these Stanley Cups? And that was part of basically the welcome committee. Now, does your mom always do this? >> Uh, yeah. Usually it's like 86, but that was >> a little low key. Lower key this time. Similar to the 74 Stanley Cut. How many uh candles were lit when we walked into the cabin? >> Every single >> is the number every candle imaginable. >> If one is good, seven is better. >> Well, and interestingly enough, that cabin almost burned down last year, not because of a candle, but because of a wildfire. And I was just like, wouldn't that be it? Like part of the land gets torched, but not the cabin. But because we lit 87 candles inside of one house at one time, the one we didn't blow out is the one that magically fell over and lit the entire place on fire. >> It just spontaneously burst into fire cuz of so many candles were were lit. Yes, that could that very well could have happened. But it's not like we were hunting and we're worried about scent or anything like that. It's like we wanted to smell like a cranberry apple or whatever that was. [laughter] I think I think deer like that actually. >> Well, that doesn't work with honey. >> May it might sound sweet. >> When I walked in, it's it kind of felt like home. It felt very very homey. So, I feel like Mama Smith kind of knew what she was doing. >> How awesome is Mama Smith? I mean, she got so much stuff done for us. And like I'm used to just coming in and the I just got a phone call on the way here and my buddy was like, "Hey, did you guys clean the bed?" No, I didn't clean the beds. I didn't clean the beds. You know, we're lucky if we took the trash out, but man, Mama Smith, she dominated, had it nice and set up and ready for us. So, thank you, Mama Smith. >> Well, I thought I was going to be the first one there cuz I got there Friday morning or something like, "Oh, yeah. I dropped the boys off at school and I went out there and I'm like, I'm going to be there first. going to be there like before 8:00 a.m. Not only was Mama Smith already there, she was sweating. >> That is how hard she she wasn't just changing the sheets, she was changing the sheets, baby. She was getting [laughter] in there and getting after it. But then by the time Matt Chandler got there and then by the time you decided it was uh within your schedule and time period to show up and grace us all with your presence, um yeah, everybody felt the homeiness. Everybody felt the warmth of what we were doing even though it was cold outside. >> And you didn't get attacked by her giant bear dog. >> Yeah. So, I didn't so I didn't realize uh cuz you know when you're meeting a dog for a first the first time like you don't know what the dog's about. You don't know like if the dog's about that life or not. But I'm from law and I'm about that life. So you got to like keep an eye out. You never know. But this dog isund >> 110 20 >> big golden retriever golden retriever you've ever seen. >> He's a golden retriever. >> He's on my monster of a dog. And so I come walking up the drive and he's right there. He's right there at the door but he's wagging his tail. So I'm like all right good sign. I am a stranger, but he's wagging his tail. And I opened the door and I got major Roman the Giant vibes. He just got right up in the bread basket and was just like, "Yeah, man. Yeah, pet me right there." Yeah, that's the one. That's a ticker right under the ears. And then, you know, he and I just kind of kept interacting throughout the morning and all that. And at one point, I'm sitting down in my laptop. This was during Dominion interviews. He just kind of like bumped my shoulder up and elbow, just shoved his head right in there. Another Roman thing. >> But I guess I didn't realize that's not a bare thing. Apparently, he's very like aggressive and protective towards men. >> No. Yeah. If you want a dog for, you know, single mother who's by herself doing stuff like you want Bear because Bear, he's great with the kids. Don't worry about him with the kids, but that dog, he's got an edge on him, you know, a little bit of edge. And man, when you hear him bark, you're like, "Oh, dear God, what is that?" [laughter] >> You don't want to come in. So, usually a lot of action. >> Yeah. So, so when men come around like he's there, and that's what I want. That's what I like. And so that's why I was shocked cuz not only that, you got something. You tried to get something out of his mouth, which is usually a big >> So I went to the best doughut place on the planet. >> Missy's Missy's. Thank you. I was hoping somebody Missy's in Guthri, Oklahoma. Cuz I used to be the guy. >> The normal amount of sugar. We don't need to talk about that. >> It's seven times heavier than a normal donut. You pick it up. Feels like Yeah. Because you got to burn calories while you consume them, right? So you're lifting the donut the lon back and forth to your mouth. >> But so I go to Missy's, right? And I get the the only appropriate Missy's order. Well, it has to start with a maple ljon and a blueberry. And so I got that, but then I got some, you know, bread cuz on their bread that they make there. I got like a lemon blueberry, but they put their glaze like their doughut glaze over the top of the bread. Preposterous. So I was like, Matt Chandler clearly needs this. And so I I [clears throat] consume the donuts on the way out there because it's like the halfway point between there and your hunting land. And so I consume the donuts and then like I've got the doors open as I'm bringing crap in and bear I didn't even know if he was supposed to be outside but I was like okay we'll wander around. Well he runs to my truck and goes right for the bag cuz I crumbled it up and th thrown it in the you know the the bottom of the passenger side. >> And so he got it and I'm all I'm thinking is he's going to eat this entire bag. It's going to get stuck in his belly. That's how Roman died. I can't let this happen to Mama Smith's dog. And so I'm like, but this is a dog, a big dog with something in its mouth. And this dog has known me for 47 seconds. And so I just gave it a nice little pet on the butt. And then I just grabbed on that bag and I just talked real sweet to it. I'm just like, "Hey buddy, this isn't your bag. [laughter] This is my bag." It's kind of like when you're talking to your kids. It's like, "I'm going to kill you if you don't fall asleep. I'm going to" And so it was one of those moments. Never once growled at me. Never once kind of nipped at me. And I was very careful. I'm like watching his face, seeing if he's grumbling or grumbling and I managed to work that out of his mouth. He took the corner of it, right? So, he got a little bit maybe there's a little bit of blueberry donut on there or something like that. >> He was definitely plotting your death. You just didn't know it. You didn't realize you were this close to death from Bear the Golden Retriever. >> Well, I was very thankful for Mama Smith and for Bear. But you know what I'm also thankful for? I'm thankful for each and every one of you guys at this table because >> last week was when I went out there to, you know, be there for Matt Chandler. We we were filming Iron and Ash. We've got the the film crew coming in. There's a lot of logistics. There was no way I could leave on Friday for anything. And wouldn't you know it, sweet baby James had his very first basketball game ever that Friday night. Okay? And you know, I talked to him beforehand. And I talked to him, hey, about, you know, schedules and, you know, this and that and, you know, people and things and all that. And of course, he doesn't really understand. He just knew that dad wasn't there. But dude's a trooper, so he won't really show his sadness and disappointment. >> But he would just keep asking like, "Hey, you know, dad, are you going to be able to come to any of my games or like, you know, it's questions like that that just absolutely start destroying your heart." >> And we were supposed to be doing an evening uh a Friday evening recording of the forging table. And we already had a guy like, you know, Howard had to hop in last minute as a fill-in for this. And I'm like, well, I can't I can't ask three guys to kind of move their schedule. But it just weighed on me and waited on me. And then James says, "Practice Thursday, game Friday." He's asking mom, "Hey, mom, is there any way that I could do my game on Thursday so dad can be there as opposed to pra like like and he doesn't realize he can't really do that." >> And so [clears throat] I start throwing out any number of ideas. I'm trying to move it to a different day, but you know, schedules don't work cuz it's last minute. And then Adam, you threw out, you're like, "Hey, how about we just start at 1:00 in the afternoon? We record four in a row. We don't do dinner. We don't do breaks. We just knock this out. And then at 5:00, you go to James' game." And so I'm very, very thankful for all of you guys. And I like to show my thanks [laughter] >> with this donuts. >> No, even better. >> This is my jerky. This animal was alive on your land about two weeks ago. And so it says, "Thanks, Howard from James. Thanks, Caleb, from James. Here we go. >> Thanks, Adam. From James. Now, >> it's even got James signature right there. You know, I tried to write it ugly, but it is from James. It is him that is thankful even though he didn't kill this animal. He didn't cut the podcast. I think that's appropriate because I can't, you know, we're not doing a dinner break or something. Yeah. Oh, shoot. Give me Can I have one of yours to cheers? All right, I'll take this one. >> Is this Is this your famous This is my spicy Satan's No, it's not Satan's It's Satan's fingernails, by the way. Satan's fingernails. [laughter] >> Oh, God. Satan's anus. No. But here we go. Cheers to you guys. Thankful for every one of you guys. And you'll hear the crunch >> cuz I'm a crunchy jerky kind of guy. Store it in the fridge. >> That's good. >> Okay. So, store it in the fridge cuz it'll be extra crispy. >> Mhm. That's good. >> All right. But >> I want to eat this entire thing. But we do have a really cool announcement as well that we need to make. This happened last night, but if you're on my email list or, you know, podcast, you may have already heard about this, but we've been partnered with Logos for a long time. So, Logos, best Bible software on the planet. [snorts] >> And it's so powerful. There's so many things that you can do with it. And a lot of you guys have signed up for Logos and you know exactly what I'm talking about, whether you're using on your phone, you know, desktop, whatever. But then Logos at the end of last year, they approached me about, hey, do you think the guys in your audience would want to ever do like a bundle? like what if we did like an Adon life bundle. >> So I met with them and kind of talked back and forth and they're like, "Well, what do your guys like? What do they what do they do? Like what are some of the things?" >> And I I just basically talked about how a lot of the guys in our audience are like kind of like Swiss Army knives. So they're not just studying theology. They're not just doing devotionals. They're not just reading random topical books. They're they're doing a lot of everything. Mhm. >> And so what we ended up doing is we went we had several iterations that we went back and forth on. What we came up with an undaunted life study bundle. Okay. So if you go to logos.com/andoned life logos.comlife or check out the show notes, you'll [snorts] be able to check out this list. So you have to sign up for logos obviously, but then you will digitally get over 200 resources. So, as of right now, it's 223, but we're looking to add a few books here and there. So, it's over 200 resources. There's Bibles, there's books, there's courses, there's devotionals, and we're talking about from Vodie Bacham, Charles Spurgeon, RC Sproul, John MacArthur, Matt Chandler, Dietrich Bonhaofer, William Lane Craig, Paul Washer, John Stodd, Doug Wilson, Paul David Trip, Ji Packer, on and on and on. But here's the thing that's absolutely mind-blowing to me, and I didn't really ask because I didn't want them to like I thought I thought it was an accident. So, I didn't really want to ask. I just wanted to like, yeah, let's just just go and do this. If you were to buy all these resources on your own, cuz you can just purchase them within Logos, right? >> It would cost you $3,32187. Okay? Now, some of y'all have big libraries. I'm assuming most of y'all aren't dropping, you know, three plus grand, you know, over the holiday season or any season just to fill up your library. But that entire thing, 200 plus resources, they priced it at >> $349.99. >> What? >> So percentage wise, I know I'm not the CPA at the table. That's 89% off. >> That's what I was going to say. >> 89% off. So like, cuz again, you're saving almost $3,000 just by purchasing this thing. And if it seems like I'm selling it, it's because I am. I flat out am selling this to you because like the the percentage that, you know, Undaunted Life gets for this is is not very much. But it's just like from a resource standpoint, this is going to keep you covered up for years. Like even if you dutifully go from one resource to the next to the next, I mean, because there's the ESV uh composite or uh expository commentary, and I do want to say this, I know this is a long leadup, uh but there are nine different Bibles, >> 58 different Bible commentaries, uh 18 Bible dictionaries and encyclopedias. There's a theological dictionary and encyclopedia. There are seven Old Testament studies, eight New Testament studies, four general biblical studies, 18 devotionals and spiritual growth books, uh 10 Bible surveys and introductions. There's four online courses, one audio book, three books on hermeneutics and and uh uh ex Jesus, one Greek grammar lexicon, there's one Hebrew grammar lexicon, there's one other a uh ancient language grammar lexicon, three systematic theology books, three biblical theology books, two church history and historical theology books, two confessions and catechisms, one liturgy and worship, two spiritual books, four pastoral care and counseling books, four ministry books, four marriage and family books, six study Bibles, six study Bibles, including the awesome Reformation Study Bible, 27 resources about apologetics and world religions, one atlas with maps and media, one philosophy book, three that are in the other category, so you'll just have to find out. Seven 21st century theology books, eight 20th century theology books, and one 19th century theology part. >> Yeah. And a partridge in a pear tree, right? It is that season. So, I've [clears throat] talked a lot here at the beginning, but just wanted to throw that out there to you guys. Logos.com, that's log os logos.com/adontedlife or check out the show notes, but it feels like you've been chomping at the bit over there to say something. Go ahead. >> So, so if somebody was to give you an 89% reduction on your taxes, like, hey, you can pay $10,000 or 89% less on your taxes. >> Yes. >> I think everybody would say yes. Yeah. >> And everybody hates taxes. >> Yeah. >> But we all love Jesus, right? Correct. And so because we love Jesus and we're getting an 89% reduction on books about Jesus, >> we're saying yes, baby. >> We should absolutely say yes. Right. Right. If only I [clears throat] got an 89% commission on on these types of things. But to be honest with you, you know, as I sit here right now, if you like held a gun to my head and you had to tell me, hey, how much do you make for every like how much does Undaunted Life get for every one of these you sell? I have no idea. >> Mhm. >> Because from the beginning, like even signing up with Logos, I have no idea how I even get paid from them. I don't know what account it goes in. Like, I have no earthly idea. I know I don't get checks in the mail because that would be super obvious, [laughter] but like when I was talking to them, it's just like, what could we do? Cuz we were looking at a cheaper one, but I was like, "No, we have to have the ESV um uh commentaries in there. Uh because y'all see the physical ones behind me, >> but the ESV expository commentary is spectacular." And they're like, "Well, if we put those in, it'll be this much." I was like, "Yeah, fine." I mean, cuz it was like 270 something. and then it bumped it up to 350 and I was like, >> "Yeah, at a certain point it's Yeah. >> Yeah. guys in my audience are spending that on, you know, a few rounds of golf or they're spending that on like onethird of a rifle or like they're they're spending that on like stuff that's fine, but not anything that's going to like change them spiritually." So, I was like, "Yeah, sure. 350, who cares?" >> I could say as as not such an independent observer, I could say fact check fact check true that you have no idea on [laughter] what what's coming in. >> If anyone does know what he's talking about, that is my CPA over there. Uh, and to say that Kyle doesn't know where the money is or where it's going. And what's funny is I kind of like it that way, which made me think about, >> y'all have seen Jay Risner. He's our executive pastor at Faith Bible Church where all four of us attend. >> Him and Pastor Mark Hitchcock. >> Yeah. >> They do not know who gives what. >> I thought that was so cool when he said that cuz I had no idea about that. >> Yeah. And so, so what I mean by that is like, so some churches, they know who they're right? >> They know the people that are making millions of dollars every year. And so their tithe could be hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars every year. Or maybe these are people that have familial wealth. And so they could be writing, you know, writing big checks when someone passes away or whatever. [clears throat] >> The lead pastor of our church and his number two have no idea, no idea who gives. >> I never even would have thought of that. Never would have considered. And the way they described it to me was like we don't want even internally in ourselves any when someone comes up and talks to us, we don't want that to be in the back of our mind. That makes sense. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Like I think most >> I can't offend Mr. Smith because I know how much he donate. Yeah. >> Well, that happens at schools for sure. You know, private schools all the time. I'm dealing with that non-stop. Our kids private school. It's like, oh, well, this person's really [inaudible] off, but they give a lot of money, so we got to figure out how to make sure their kid stays in school. >> Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, is there anything else y'all have to announce at the beginning before we actually dive into Romans 4? >> Can I write? >> Yeah, you do. We have announcements. Okay, >> we do. We do. I do have an announcement. Like it is amazing that the four of us are around this table today. And I will say, you know, we we already had one fill in. We had to move this to 1:00. I got a hundred things going on today. And so it's just like >> Satan is after this group. Satan is after you. Satan is after an undawned life. He does not want this to happen today for sure. Not only that, but everybody that's listening to this or watching this, they're getting attacked, too. You know, non-stop. So, uh, thank you, Kyle. And it's missionritical that we continue to work to get around and have these discussions and and I'm sure people that watch this think, oh, well, those guys are constantly in the word. They're always getting together, always. That's not that's not true. We're working hard. We're having to adjust things just like you guys have to to have your own group. So, >> I'm glad that we're all here, but everybody should know this is not it is not easy to make this happen and put this together >> and mistakes happen like at this exact moment. It's almost like Ryan Horn, the ghost of Ryan Horn is here because as y'all were coming up here, I was trying to get the studio ready again. You know, earlier start time and so, you know, officially last year, I wanted an official scent of of the studio, right? And so, we did like sweet tobacco and so I've got a little diffuser thing over there. Well, you know, my hands were full cuz I had to pour the distilled water and the thing blah blah blah. And so I'm like, "All right, I'm just going to open this thing with my mouth." And then essential oil, sweet tobacco, got all over the beard, and that's all I can smell right now. Like normally that jerky just kind of like opens up the sinuses. Nope, it is sweet tobacco. That is apparently going to be there for this is a flashback to when uh you were in here with Ryan and he put some essence on and >> Yeah. >> Yeah. You had us all uh all ready to leave the studio. >> Spray it while we were on the show. >> Yeah. I mean, he showed you how to do it, you know, one here, one here, back. I mean, I remember that on the back of the neck cuz I had it was a little travel bottle of cool water by David Dolph right? >> It moved to this house with house with me and I don't think had ever been opened, but as a joke, I saw it in the drawer. I'm like, "Oh, I'm going to spray it." Worst decision I could have possibly made. I was choking. I could barely talk. Like I my voice is normally pretty rough anyway, but I had to go change my shirt in between tapings because I was like this. I can't. This is And Ryan literally does that every [laughter] day. It's here and there and then he has one on this part of the neck and one on that part of the neck and then one on the back of his stupid bald head and then it's just kind of like, dude, how like how do you go anywhere without choking people out? However, >> I bet 60% of the time that works every time. >> Yeah, more than likely [laughter] that's that's some Ryan Horn math right there. >> Bits of Panther in. But hey, yeah, it's a panther for [laughter] sure. All right. Well, hey, we're getting into Romans 4. So, we've been marching our way slowly but surely, kind of dragging our way through Romans 1, 2, and 3. Now, we're getting into chapter 4. And another one of the cool things whenever we come around the forging table is it's always interesting to see what resources guys bring with them. Cuz I've been doing the RC Sproul Romans in a year. Caleb, you showed up with the the physical version there. You know, some of us you read different um different versions of the Bible. For you old school, the forging tablelers, uh you know, you would know that Caleb Martin has the world's smallest Bible. So, that is actually a Guinness Book of Worlds Records. It's not here today. It's not with >> I was going to point something out. So, >> remember the one time I showed up with the Bible that had Shannon's name on it. >> Correct. Yeah, that was that was great. >> Caught grief on that. >> Then I showed up with one that you could hide in the side of your cheek. >> Correct. And now I have one that doesn't have Genesis or Exodus. >> Whoa. >> Caleb, [laughter] if >> Show the camera. Show Show the camera in the middle [laughter] there. >> Dad gum it, Moses. I'm done with you, Moes. >> Donations. [laughter] >> You can get those re rebound. >> He mentioned donations. Please do not send any donations for this. I know that Caleb, I have it on good authority that he literally makes thousands of dollars every year. Thousands and thousands of dollars. Bro, what is what is the Bible thing? Like there we have a store in this city that like is 17% less. >> I know where it is and everything. >> So it's hard to get rid of any Genesis or Exodus. You don't like >> this Bible was a gift by my my friends. >> Was it a gift to you or did you steal it? Cuz that would be another layer to the story. >> Bible. So I have it. I just need to take it in and I thought it was in here but it's sitting on my >> You have Genesis. >> I have Genesis and Exodus. It's out with you. We're going to be engineers today. Come on. You weren't using it. You weren't using it to roll things, were you? [laughter] >> Like tear out a page and roll something with it. >> Who discovered that? Cuz that's always been a thing. Doesn't matter where you grew up. People rolling doobies with freaking Bible pages. >> Well, I mean that's what else would you do with a torn out Bible page? >> Definitely not read it apparently or or even carry it with you >> on accident. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah, that's actually true. But let's actually get into the text here. So Howard, if you don't mind, we are going to read the first two verses of Romans chapter 4. So kick us off. And what version from the ESV? >> ESV. Let's go. All right. >> What then shall we say was gained by Abraham our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. >> Yeah. [snorts] So the interesting thing here is if [clears throat] you were advising Paul who's writing again this is a letter chapters and verses were added later. So imagine just sitting down reading this thing front to back which again you know in the forging table for Romans we may hit one verse a time or a handful of verses but the people reading this are reading this out loud. We're reading it all out at once. Would you say would you take the bet that he's going to use Abraham like [laughter] to be the guy to like start making his argument? Um because now you see him kind of elucidated as we work our way through chapter 4, but that wouldn't have been the guy that you would have thought he would have gone with. >> I agree. I think there's that wouldn't have made any sense. But I think if you go back to where he was at in chapter 3 and some of the things I've said in the past is like I've envisioned this as being a prize fight. And it's a prize fight where Paul's talking back and forth between Jew and Gentile. And he's and he's throwing haymakers at each one. And it's like >> he's he's knocking out the Jew and the Gentiles cheering. And then it's like, "Oh crap, now he's going to start knocking out the Gentile." And the Jew starts cheering. So he's going back and forth. And so at the end of chapter 3, he's completely [inaudible] off all all of the Jews. The Jews at this point are not happy. And he's already contemplating what the Jews are considering based on his last words. And so he says, "By no means, on the contrary, we uphold the law." Because right before that, he was crushing it and saying that it's it's potentially like not important. And so he's like, "If it's not important, then what about Abraham? What about all of our ancestors? What about all of our family members? Because if they weren't justified by the law, well then where are they now?" And so now we get into chapter 4. And who better to go back to to bring the prize fight back and to and to and to lift the Jew up off the floor than go to Abraham, right? Yeah, I saw it kind of the same way. I just, you know, I saw it as like he's a he's an attorney looking like, okay, here's my here's the way I'm going to lay it out. And I think it was uh MacArthur's commentary was saying chapter 3 was all about the theology of justification. And then in chapter 4 is going to be about this illustration of justification by faith through Abraham. And so just kind of laying out that here's what we talked about the basics of it. Now I'm going to use Abraham who you've always held upheld as this works by faith person. and I'm gonna I'm gonna annihilate your thinking based on all these things. And he's kind of laying it out here to them for sure. I mean, he just goes to the core of their faith, right? I mean, the father of the Jews. Um, so, you know, definitely not what you would have expected, but I mean, what a what a move, right? You know, just to >> to go to the core of their faith. >> Go ahead. >> Isn't Isn't it great that he says he has something to boast about? You know, I read that multiple times. It's like, >> for if Abraham was justified through works, he has something to boast about. just kind of kind of like made me positive and happy. It's like but not before God. It's like doesn't mean crap. You know, God didn't care. None of that stuff matters, right? >> One, the Sproul commentary pointed out, excuse [clears throat] me, that Abraham looked forward to the promised one, >> right? Because Abraham is pre-law, [clears throat] like you know that that's a very interesting point in all this, but he had to look forward to the promised one >> while we in 2026 get to look backwards on the finished work of Christ. I thought that was great. >> Right. Paul as he's writing this gets to look back on the finished work of Christ >> because he's writing this within uh the lifespan of the eyewitnesses of the crucifixion and the resurrection and the ascension. So he he's writing that at this time and they're looking back on the finished work. But Abraham didn't have that. And again, you know, the word justified is used here. So it's like, okay, how is one justified? Um, but if you are justified by works, then Abraham would certainly be able to boast. And boasting, especially for men, is something that we kind of default to. >> Really get pretty good at. >> Yeah. Because it attaches to something that we've done, right? >> Well, the one commentary I read, he he gave the um reference to Ephesians 2:8. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not on your own doing, it is the gift of God. Right? So, I don't know how you can come up with that. it's on your own when it's a gift, right? >> Yeah. And what what you were saying, Kyle, I I picked up on that also, especially with some of the following verses in verses three and four. And I do think uh Sproul said some of these same comments in addition to that where he said, you know, it's common in all our culture to look at the Old Testament and think that people were saved by the law and by works. And I I I would admit that that's probably the way my mind usually works. It's like Old Testament, it was law and works, and then Jesus came and everything changed. And Sproul argues that that's not the way it was at all. And and Paul is telling us here that it's actually very different. And in fact, it's still all points to Jesus and it's all righteousness. It's all uh justification through his sacrifice for us. It has nothing to do with works. And like Kyle, like you said, the Old Testament is looking forward to Jesus and the New Testament is looking backwards to when he was here. And I saw uh Jacece Robertson was on a podcast recently and he he made the comment that he kind of had an epiphany that the Bible if you go from Genesis to Malachi it's all pointing to Jesus. Matthew to John is while Jesus is here and then Acts to Revelation is after Jesus has been here that you break it up into those three pieces. That's what the entire thing is all about. Did you see him say that same? >> I've heard him say something similar before because so this is the problem. Um cuz I think the audience was surprised and some of you guys were surprised when I wanted to do Nehemiah so early in the forging table because a lot of people have never covered Nehemiah or they at least know the image of like okay a sword cross with a hammer because yeah you're working with one hand and you're you know uh defending yourself and your work with the other but then it's just like no every single jot and tit in the Bible is pointing in the same direction. And so that's why um uh oh I just forgot his first name u JT English he wrote [clears throat] a book that you know he was interviewed on the show last year about where it's like a lot of people know stories from the Bible >> but they lose the thread of the story of the Bible and so when you're reading Ezra and Nehemiah through the lens of the gospel of Jesus it changes and it also gives you a little bit of grace for the people that were living in that time. Oh yeah. >> For the people that had the law but not yet the savior. >> For the people that are reading Malachi and they're in the middle of hundreds of years of God not communicating directly to his his people right before Jesus has even gotten here. And again, [clears throat] I never assume that I would have been one of the smart, moral, justified people from back in the day. I assume, okay, what were the most people doing? Okay, that's what I would have been doing. And I would have been doing it loudly, right? Like that's basically how that would have worked out. >> I agree with you. I think you're right. Well, I think [laughter] that that particular >> of all the things you just wait till the very last thing. Yeah. Okay. Do you agree with anything else that I said just there was actually the most profound thing I've ever heard >> at the very end. Perfect. All right. Makes perfect sense. Anybody want to join in with Adam there? >> No. >> Yeah. I wouldn't throw in my log with a guy like [laughter] him either. Wouldn't do that. But uh let's go back to Romans 3:27 actually. So Romans 3:27. Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded by what kind of law? By the law of works? No, but by the law of faith. So again, this is one letter meant to be read in one sitting, right? We get to take a breath when we get to chapter 4 verse one. Oh, it feels like a reset. This isn't a reset. This is a continuation >> of the argument here to where it's like grace through what? Through our works. No, justification through what? Through our works. No, it is through faith. And we still get stuck here, guys, because pick a certain kind of Protestant denomination. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Gospel, gospel, but you have to be baptized in order to be saved. Oh, baptism isn't a work, but all those other things are works. Oh, and it it when you do the baptism, it can't be sprinkle either. It's got to be full immersion. Or, oh, no, no, it doesn't matter if it's full immersional. It can be sprinkle. Um, I mean, I literally saw a video today while I was eating lunch of a prisoner that had just had an experimental medical uh, surgery and he couldn't be submerged in water, >> but he wanted to get baptized. He wanted to give his life to Jesus. And so, they put that dude in a chair and about five guys grabbed water bottles and they they poured it on this guy who like he couldn't soak in water. It could it could have killed him. And then all I could think about is the fuddy duddy fundamentalist guys that were going to be in the comments like well actually like normally if you start a sentence with well actually you're probably a [inaudible]. Just going to throw that out there. It may not be true but it's probably true. Well actually uh you have to have full immersion and uh if you really had faith in God you would have just immersed him because it would have been okay because God would have protect him blah blah and all that. So it's like >> okay I don't really understand that. But ultimately the the argument is like no it's faith. No it's faith. No it's faith. And again, as you continue reading through Romans, it's like, okay, where does the faith come from? Do we decide on the faith? Is the faith given to us? And then we start, you know, getting into the arguments that we've had a lot at the stable. >> Did some of you lead into some of the discussion that Sproul was having about tying this together with James? Because James has a very different interpretation. Oh, yeah. And there's there's a big >> shift between it being faith alone and then also in inserting works. Because if you if you look at them in a silo and you see what Paul is saying in Romans and what's happening in James, all of a sudden James comes in and seems it seems if you just read it on its own that works is important and that we are justified by our works. Did you guys get to that point also? >> I read a comment. >> Do you have the the uh >> I do have James. >> Well, no, [laughter] that is fantastic. You have James, but in your scroll over there, do you have that? Because I forget what day that was on. Do you remember what day it was on >> where he talked about the the James passage and how he kind of like dealt with that? >> No. >> If you can't find it quickly, I can I can run over there and grab my iPad. >> Uh we'll we'll fill up the dead air. We'll fill up the dead air while you figure it out. >> Yeah. Hurry. Hurry. But >> well, while he while he's finding that, I think that's the thing that when I was looking at this, >> when they when they think about how he was righteous by works, it's like the law wasn't even here yet. So, how would you be righteous based on works and the law if the law hadn't come yet? >> And and you're referring to >> Abraham. Abraham's Oh, sure. Yeah. The law had not been come to and been established yet. >> That's fair. Yeah. >> Okay. So, he was before the age of grace and before the age of the law. So, how how are you going to get there to works? >> And I think I was listening to one of MacArthur's comments and he said, you know, they at to some point thought he was self-righteous. Like he anticipated the law that was coming. And it's like it's a stretch on some. >> It's silly. It's silly how somebody can make a really basic comment like that and I'm like crap. I didn't even think about that. Like this is before Moses. Like we don't have the law yet, right? >> Yeah. >> 600 years. >> That's kind That's kind of It's never made that connection. It's just like you just said we didn't have a law yet. Well, yeah, dummy. Obviously, I should have known that. >> Well, what's interesting about that? So, uh >> by dummy, I mean me. [laughter] Yeah. >> Well, yeah, definitely. Uh Caleb grew up in a cult, so you don't count. Uh, I don't count either because I didn't grow up with a I mean, I grew up in country music theology. You grew up a Christian since a little kid. Yeah. >> You grew up Christian since a little kid. Yeah. >> So, so, so we're the heathens on. We're the pagans on this side of the table, Caleb. So, team pagan over here, but for you two, uh, sanctified folk, >> what is it like for you? I I've actually thought about this specifically when I've been thinking about you two, you know, Christian school, you know, being around pastors your whole life, all the different things. when something blows your mind about the Bible [clears throat] and you you were in a school that did Bible every day, you went to a university that had chapel, you've done your own personal Bible study, you've been around pastors, you've heard >> potentially thousands of sermons between live sermons, podcasts, you've done additional reading and all that. What's it like? And this is an honest to goodness no kidding in this in this question. What's it like for you guys when you realize something in the Bible and you're like, "Oh my gosh, how many times have I gone over that?" Because we're we're gonna get there here in a second with James. >> I'm I'm going down that road right now with my study of Calvinism, right? You know, I've leaned one way for a long time and I'm as as I've said on this podcast multiple times, I'm I'm on the fence. >> I'm definitely on the fence. >> Which which way is the way you've leaned? >> I've been very Armenian all my life >> and I'm I'm leaning strongly towards the other direction at this point. I'm at least exploring. And um >> so for that reason, if if I was to talk to myself 10 years ago and say that I'm now leaning towards the Calvinist side of things, like I would I would have got I would have got in a fight with myself. Like what the heck do you mean? Like that's not okay. >> But but to be honest, you you said listen to thousands of sermons. Fact check. True. Listen to uh read read uh all these different books. Not so much true because I don't really read all that often, unfortunately. But listening to listening to sermons, being in classes all the time, it is it is still amazing when I compare this Calvinism Armenian thing is like I have a certain way of thinking in my head that I think way ways should go, things should be, but when I go back to scripture, I keep coming back to like it doesn't reconcile with me. Like every time I read these words, I'm like crap. I I think it's possibly going the other direction. Well, Adam, don't lose your train of thought, but it's like it's what you think's in there and what is in there. Like I I was listening to a episode of Deepen recently with Joby >> where Pastor Brit had to inform him, hey, you know, we don't have a single quote from Joseph in the Bible. >> No. >> Yeah. >> Jesus's father doesn't have a single quotation in the Bible. >> And Joey was like, "No, he said he No, he said this and he said that. And like this is a guy that went to Bible school. Like he's, you know, he's got a dumb accent, but he's got a big brain. And so he just like, you know, he's he's able to like bring all these Bible things together." But it was another pastor who's also been in the Bible forever. He's like, "No, bro. We don't have a single quote from that guy." >> And think about those guys like when they come on a podcast like this, you know, they're, you know, when Jay's sitting here or Chandler's there or Job's here, like four untrained dudes or three untrained dudes sitting with that guy, like it would feel a little vulnerable because they're the guy that everyone's going to look at and be like, "Well, he's going to have the answer." And we've done that before. Like we've been here before and like um a couple couple times ago when Jay was here, we looked at him like, "Jay, what do you think about that?" No, he's going to take on that huge weight of like, yeah, I've been to seminary. I'm the one in front of I'm supposed to have all of the answers. That would be kind of difficult to deal with. >> Well, you know what's interesting about that and then Howard, I want to hear your answer is because I've heard Joby say this as well. uh because you know on ask a pastor or on you know deepen or if he's being talked to you know by someone aid in his church because you know for a megaurch pastor that has tens of thousands of people going to his churches every weekend every single service every single service that man marches out to the lobby he stands in the middle of it and there's a line of people that got questions that need ministry that need counseling that need something signed you know they want to get their book signed for because they're giving it to a co-orker or whatever and all of his staff is in and around him and he is directing ing traffic and getting people immediate help and immediate assistance. And that is that is not a small thing considering the moment we live in which is the the the church pastor that is whisked in in their blacked out SUV and then whisked out immediately afterwards and they say it's because of security. No, it's cuz they don't want to do the work of ministry. They don't want to do the work of shephering. >> But one thing that that Joby has said is people will ask him theological questions like, "Hey, what do you think about fill in the blank? What do you think about this scripture? What do you think about this theological topic?" and his immediate response is, "Well, we need to just go to what the text says." >> And then he gives his answer. And I'm just like, >> "Dude, you're right." And so, you and I are kind of in the same place, Adam, with this whole Calvinism, Armenianis. And I never like I was never a card carrying member of the Armenian army or whatever or whatever you're supposed to call yourself. >> That's not a conversation in a lot of churches, Calvinism versus Armenianism. And I think that's the thing for some of us. Our church talks a lot about that stuff that a lot of churches never talk about, right? I've been in a lot of churches in my life and I've never heard the word Armenianism and Calvinism brought up from the from the pulpit. >> But then you have those belief systems and you're like, "Wait, I believe that." And then you try to go to scripture and prove it. You're like, "Oh, shoot. There's nothing to prove that with." But again, similar to Adam Howard, I'm just curious for you like because you're talking to a captive audience of guys. Some guys are have been Christians their whole life kind of a thing. Some guys, you know, praise the Lord, maybe became a Christian this morning or something like that. Now they're listening to this. So, I think it's good for them to listen to guys that are, you know, more experienced believers, guys further down the sanctification process when it comes to your own personal Bible study. I >> I think that's the piece when you look at some of the giants in our faith, just in our culture, right? They don't ever get tired of learning, right? And because there is so much to learn and I think that's the thing that I've looked at throughout my life is the more the more you know, the more you realize you don't know. >> That's right. You know, you can have Adam knows so much about financials, right? I know a ton about sales and equipment. He's not going to know everything I know. We don't have that capacity. And that's that beauty of what each of us have. And I think that's the piece that I've come to realize over my lifetime. It's like I'm not ever going to know it all. And and even be able to grasp some of it. And I think that's the beauty of scripture of how every time we look at it, it reveals something new to us. >> It's not just the word. It's what does it what Paul talk about in chapter two? That's the power of the gospel. >> It changes lives. And the word is so powerful. And so I think that's the that's the thing for me is in my faith that I've grown, it's like it's just it's it refreshes us. It's new every morning, right? So the one story I I remember I was sitting at a restaurant. This is oh gosh, probably 10 years ago, but we were with a group of guys and one of the guys did their questions out where's where's Satan at? And most everybody says, "Well, he's in hell." >> Well, Satan's not in hell. He's loose all. And it was just like, right, but it sometimes you just have that cognitive thing in the back of your head. Well, he's no, he's just he's loose on earth. And I don't, it was something for me. I'm like, oh yeah, I don't know why I was thinking he was in hell. >> Mhm. >> Right. And here's the other thing. This is kind of an interesting apologetic to that as well. Uh people think that there's there's angels named all throughout the Bible. >> No, there's angels described all the way throughout the Bible. >> There are only three that are named. >> Michael, Gabriel, Lucifer. So when they talk about a third of heaven's legion going down, >> why do you think there were only three named? Is that accidental? Is that just, you know, ah well, you know, circumstances led to, you know, then theologically speaking, there's only one. No, no, there's only three named and a third of them are gone and they're in league with Lucifer and working with Lucifer right now, >> not in hell >> here. >> And man, and then you know, we tal we talked about the Nephilim whenever Matt Chandler was here. uh and one of those types of things to where it's like there are schools of thought that I u where basically like fallen angels right demons right were >> procreating with women and that created the Nephilim and there could be a direct line between the Nephilim and the Philistines how do you get giants like Goliath right and oh yeah and you know people I I've talked about this before and I talked about on that show when you have AI try to explain how the pyramids were made almost every AI in the world will default to giant human beings or humanoid creatures that are 10 times the size of us. And so these big stones that we can't possibly fathom how they got from that core to that core. It's like well when you have super Yeah. Like he's just throwing it on his shoulder and he's just walking to to work with his lunch pail on the other hand. >> Yep. >> Yeah. Goliath may have been the last and the smallest of all of them. >> Isn't that funny? Because people are like, well, you know, Goliath, if he were alive today, he wouldn't even be tall enough to play in the NBA and all that's like, okay, maybe that's true. Like maybe all that's true. But yeah, like that that does kind of get into uh some of those things that we believe, it's like, hey, it's not necessarily in the Bible. We've just come to believe it, which shows the uh the influence of culture right? >> Because when you hear some of these arguments from culture that don't have a biblical basis, it's like, well, that came from somewhere. >> And I remember getting into this uh recently, you know, I talked about the inagram, and I got a lot of crap when I came out talking about the inagram because Kyle, the inagram works, though. >> Yeah, >> it works. My wife and I both did it and our relationship's better because we understand each other better. Hey, I did this at work and here's the thing. I I taught our Sunday school class. You're not in it for whatever [laughter] reason. When I was teaching our Sunday school about the inagram and I was like sitting there and I'm like I knew I was in a room with a bunch of anagram fans. >> Yep. >> And so, do y'all remember what I said at the very beginning? >> Do y'all remember what I said to kind of like take the take the air out of the balloon a little bit? >> You talked about how you were >> Yeah. I said, "Who in this room has made money off of teaching the inagram?" >> And I looked around the room. I'm like, "Oh, is there only one hand up? Me." I'm the only human being in this room that did business consulting and sales consulting work using the Inagram in Sea Suites because I thought it worked so well. better than the MyersBriggs, better than five love languages, better than what's your, you know, spirit color animal or whatever the the different, you know, personality incessments are out there. >> And then I found out that the inagram was created using automatic writing. What is automatic writing? >> That's where you summon a spirit and then basically put your pen on the paper and let the spirit write for you. Okay, >> that's a demon. And what you're writing is what the demon wants you to write down. That's how the inagram was created. >> So you think about something like the Inagram that works or you think about something like I was asked about Iawaska. Hey Kyle, what do you think about all these Delta guys and these these SEAL team guys and these army rangers that go and have these Iawasa trips and you know yeah technically the guy leading them through it is a doctor but also kind of a shaman. Um you know he's rubbing dirt on stuff as opposed to giving people medicine like you know the things like that. And I told people the only reason why we're even having this discussion is because those things do seem to work. >> But it would be an ineffective tool of Satan if it didn't work at all. >> Right? >> If the inagram didn't work at all, Satan would be able to use it. If I didn't work at all, Satan wouldn't be able to use it. And I love what my buddy Eddie Penny said. Uh he was Seal Team Six. You know, has killed a lot of guys, has done some insane things in war, and has seen things that we can't even fathom. He said, "I chose as a Christian to not do the Iawaska thing to not do all that like some of my teammates because let's say I get to the end of the road and I solve my drinking issue and I solve my lust issue and I solve the emptiness inside of me and what do I get to point to? >> Iaska. >> I get to point to a magic mushroom. I get to point to something that was on the back of a poison dart frog before it was in my system or something like that." Right? And he's like, "But instead, I'm going to be able to point to the goodness and grace of God, but the road's a whole heck of a lot longer, >> right?" And so, >> longer. Yeah. >> Yeah. I think that's part of the thing that that answers this discussion as well is like, okay, where do these things come from? And why is it important? >> If I found myself in that situation, I mean, that'd be that'd be a hard decision to make. It's the right decision. uh impressive that he's willing to do that. But if somebody sets something in front of you like this is going to solve your problems and you have the strength and the ability to say, "Nope, that's not what I'm supposed to do because it tells me to avoid that kind of stuff. I'm going to rely on Jesus instead." Man, that's uh an admirable decision because it'd be difficult for me to make that decision. If I was suffering with those same things, it's like it's right there. Here's the solution. >> Well, and it seems like an easy button, >> especially when it comes to your your health. >> Sure. You know? >> Yeah. Um, I mean, I don't know if we have time to get into it, but this James passage. So, and this is I appreciate you guys saying what you said about um, you know, Calvinism or Armeniaism, working through that. So, I wonder where the the eye, the irresistible grace fits into this conversation, >> uh, because it's it's, you know, something that we can't avoid, right? That's going to produce the good works, right? Uh, when we have faith. So, you know, this whole topic is something where like I I know what I've wanted to believe for years as in like so when I'm trying to when I'm researching and studying, it's like I don't want everything I'm studying to reinforce that, right, and cloud that. I want to just let the text say what it says. >> Um, but I want it to be faith alone, you know? I want it to not depend on me, right? because I know I have on the ledger of, you know, bad works is is huge where I think of my good works and I'm like, well, I' I've been told that even my righteous works are filthy rags. So, what do I have over here? Right? >> But I do come back to a lot of things that um and we'll probably have to I mean, I know we'll get into this next week, too, but it's just it talks about works a ton, you know? I mean, if in in James, we're talking about uh faith without works being dead. Uh, so I just don't know how you guys think like the the I specifically in the in tulip in that acronym works into this conversation. >> Where did Abraham get his faith >> from the Lord? I mean from Yeah. >> And so [clears throat] if it was resistable, wouldn't Abraham in his finite mind resist it? >> Cuz didn't it require a lot of very uncomfortable things? >> Sure. And that's before we get to Isaac. >> Yeah. Right. >> That's before we get to Mount Mariah. >> Yeah. Mount Mariah. Exactly. It's [clears throat] like he had he had to prove that's part of the part of the work. The work shows the faith, right? That's what James what Paul what we would say James was probably referring to is that uh the works are a result of the faith. If you have faith, you're going to see works. >> Did you do you have the Did you have the passage pulled up? >> Well, actually, so what I want to do as we wrap up today's episode, so shout out to um Leonir Ministries. So, it's the power of the gospel, a year in Romans by RC Sproul. So, Caleb, if actually you wouldn't mind because I think this is very important to to what uh Adam started earlier, but if you'll read from here, just kind of go before you get to the application. If you wouldn't mind, I think it would be prudent to actually read that entire thing. So, if you've got the physical copy, it starts on page 90 of RC Sproul's uh a year in the book of Romans. [clears throat] >> So, faith has trust. Paul's argument in Romans 4 is somewhat problematic because of the way in which the Apostle James deals with the issue in his epistle. Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works and by his works faith was made perfect and the scripture was fulfilled which says Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness and he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith only. uh that is uh Romans 2 or no James 2:21-24. Uh on the surface it would seem that there would there could be no clear repudiation of the doctrine of justification by faith alone. In order to reach a resolution, we must first examine the context in which the statements were made and ask what question is the author trying to answer? James tells us what question he's trying to answer. What does it profit my brethren if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith say save him? Which is verse 14. That was one of the most critical questions of the 16th century re reformation. When Martin Luther insisted that justification is by faith alone, people took that to mean that all one has to do is to give intellectual ascent that Jesus is the savior of the world. That's not what Luther meant. However, if before I was Christian you had asked me if I believed in God and that Jesus was his son, I would have said yes. But I had no personal relationship with Christ. I had no saving faith whatsoever. It was it was merely an intellectual ascent that had to an abstract proposition. James writes here in this text, you believe that there is one God, you do well. Even the demons believe and tremble. Verse 19. All that does is all that does is qualify us to be demons. Anybody can believe in the existence of God. Satan believes. The demons know that God exists and they tremble before him, but they do not put their trust in God for salvation. Luther had to spell out the ingredients of saving faith which include not only the data the content to believe but also the intellectual ascent to the propositions. If we have the content and the ascent but if all that we if that is all we have we are not going to be justified. That's the point that James is making in his epistle. The third and most critical element of saving faith that Luther delineated was what he called fiducia. The personal trust in Christ. Fiducia is nec necessary for salvation. We can believe that Jesus can save us without having saving faith. Uh we have to trust that he does save us and we put our trust in him alone. When we do that, we're justified by God and begin to do good works, not to gain righteousness before God, but to thank him for his free grace, his forgiveness, and his declaration that we are righteous in Christ. When James says that we are justified by works, James 2:24, he means that works justify or demonstrate the authenticity of our profession of faith. >> Appreciate you reading that. Going back [clears throat] to the fiducia comment, I mean, that's that's Latin for the word trust. It's where we get our word fiduciary. So, if you've ever been in a, you know, financial planning context and you're dealing with someone who's not a fiduciary, that doesn't mean you're not allowed to trust that person, but just know that somebody, if they are, if they do have the designation of being a fiduciary, they have to do what is in your best interest. And if they don't, they they can lose licensing, they can get fined. There's been people that I knew that faced prison time for things that they did that violated their role as a fiduciary. Uh, so again, I think that's very important bringing up James there. But we're going to go and wrap the discussion for this week at that point, but we'll bring it back up next week. So guys, make sure you are uh reading through Romans. Uh I would suggest reading Romans all the way through a couple times a week before you get back here to the forging table. But before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost at Undaunted Life. Our mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. So do not forget we got the Undaunted Life study bumble through study bumble [laughter] study bundle. That's probably better. Uh through cross, not crossway through Logos. We're just destroying it here toward the end, but logos logos.com/donal life. Logos.com/dontto.life to get that deal. Also, we are donationbased ministry. So, if you're wondering how we can pull stuff off like the forging table is because we have guys like you partnering with us, undaunted.life/donate undaunted.life/donate. Hop on board and be a donor. Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive fivestar review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, shoot me an email to info@undanton.life, that's info@undanton.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www.undton.life. And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is their song Perpetual, which is off their self-titled debut album on Faceown Records. The links are in the description. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the Lion of Judah. [music] [music]