[music] This is Undaunted [music] Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. Welcome back to the forging table. Uh, and we are back. Uh, Jay, we got to stop our intro right here, but keep it rolling, Landon. Um, how many degrees do we have at the table? I got two. >> Two and a half. >> Yeah. CPA, you had to sit for the exam. So, two and a half. >> I don't have I don't even I don't have a college degree. >> All right. He can barely speak. [laughter] And we got two. So, we got But we apparently don't know how timers work. And I thought I was going to solve the problem by having a uh hourglass on the table. >> You know how big hourglasses are? like they would be like these gargantuan things, but at least once a batch of recordings, we can't get it right. But we must trudge on here because we're welcoming everyone back to the forging table, which is where we are, where the timer is. The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. At the forging table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience by digging into God's word. And we're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey. That's Adam. That's Ryan. That's Pastor Jay Ryner of Faith Bible Church. So, I say normal, guys. Not normal. Dude's not normal. Okay, super duper Christian. But we uh went over the first eight verses of Romans last week and so we are going to be getting into first eight verses of Romans 3 rather. And so today we're going to be getting into Romans 3 starting in verse 9. So let's actually So I want to do something here with uh with this section. I want to just read the entire section through. So I want to read 9 through 20 because we kind of talked about this last week with you know sometimes you get lost in the text. So, I want to read the chunk of it and then I want to go back and let's start scraping through. Let's go line by line. Let's go verse by verse. So, I will take a volunteer as tribute to read Romans 3:es 9- 20. >> I'll read. >> Okay. No J, you got the voice. We need to hear more Trump over there. >> Starting verse 9. What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin. As it is written, there is none righteous, not even one. There is none who understands. There is none who seeks for God. All have turned aside. Together they have become useless. There's none who does good. There's not even one. Their throat is an open grave. With their tongues they keep deceiving. The poison of asps is under their lips. Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood. Destruction and misery are in their paths, and the path of peace they have not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes. Now we know that whatever the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God. Because by the works of the law, no flesh will be justified in his sight. For through the law comes the knowledge of sin. >> That was NASBY. >> Nasby, >> how about you give your apologetic for being the only guy at the table without the ESV? How dare you? But go ahead, Nasby. Why do we read that one? >> Uh, >> that is the Faith Bible Church. That is that is the one that we're allowed to use. Yeah, I think it it's kind of connected to the historical, literal, grammatical approach to interpretation. So, it's probably the most literal word for word translation. So, I actually prefer the SV. And then I even like the NIV 1984 when it comes to like memorizing uh scripture just because it flows better and it it's not as clunky. >> So, what would you say to someone like Ryan who's like big the message guy, Passion Translation, you know, those types of things? >> Pigeon translation as well. >> Yeah, pigeon's a good one. >> Yeah. >> Uh repent. Yeah. That's what I got. Eugene Peterson, man. Eugene Peterson. >> No, those are helpful things. I I I have a What is it? A little psalter that's NLT and for some reason I like it. >> I love I I use NLT with my kids because they can understand it a little bit better. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And what's funny about the NIV thing, before ESV and ASBY were kind of taking over certain spaces and now CSV, Christian Standard Bible has taken over a lot of different things. >> Most people memorize their scripture in the NIV. And so now they're going back and reading the ESV and they're like, "Dad, like I thought I was saying it right." Cuz I I remember first um when I was first memorizing scripture, 2 Corinthians 10:5, I did it in the NIV. And then when I refer people back to it in the ESV, it just doesn't roll off the same. And I don't know if it's because I learned it the other way or if because it is just a little bit smoother. >> Phrase more phrase by phrase. Yeah, a little smoother. I think you're right. >> All right. Well, let's go ahead and get back into the beginning of the section. So, uh verse 9 and 10. So, reading ESV, what then? Are the Jews better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks are under sin, as it is written, none is righteous, know not one. And so, the none is righteous, know not one. Um, I mean, this is Psalm 14:es 1-3. There's a lot of different references in the Old Testament that are stacked right on top of one another. But again, kind of going back to a little bit of the discussion last week, how do you read verse 9 and think, "Yeah, not me, though. I I just don't know." Like every every pastor has made the joke, do you know what the Greek for all is? All like and it's just like but yeah, I mean how much more clear does it need to be that this is being addressed to everybody that is currently hearing it. I I just don't really understand how people get wrapped around the axle on it. >> And what prompts the question is in the previous section he says, "Oh, but but the Jews have [clears throat] the oracles of God. They they are privileged. So then the question is, well then really are they better?" Well, no. regarding judgment that they deserve. Nope. Not at all. >> And if you go back to the picture where we've got potentially, you know, assuming Paul's on a rock, this didn't really happen, but Paul's on a rock and we've got the Jews over here and the Gentiles over here and the Jews have been turned up on their head. I love how verse 9, it just starts we what then? What then? Well, now what? Because I'm still reading it from the perspective that most of the questions are being asked from the Jews perspective. Well, what then? Now what? Well, because they have the oracles of God and you they they they have the law. The Gentiles didn't have the law. Morality is written on their heart because God has given us moral law and written it on our hearts. But think about it this way is like I I was thinking about it as like what if I was a Jew before Christ and like or even when Christ was around and I I knew the law. I die and now I'm standing before God. And like could I really say I am righteous enough after looking at the law and studying the law and knowing the law that I'm righteous enough to stand before God? Like Abraham, which we'll talk about in chapter 4, still had to turn his face, >> you know, and see see God walk by. It's like I don't know. It's just like where do you get get the uh coahones to think like I can stand before a just God by doing this work? Did you hesitate to say Kahones because Jay's here? >> I did. I'm already enough. I'm already >> was brought up as anus twice last week. Like come on. >> Everybody that listened to that episode agrees with me that that would be better than going out in a bed. >> No one agrees with you. Literally feel your daughters like if they had to see that. >> That would be bad. But you know, >> and first of all, you assume that Facebook's still a thing like 60 years from now, 50 years from now. >> 100. How old do you think I am? >> Oh yeah, you're like a billion years old already. So yeah. So 40ish years from now, we think Facebook Live is still going to be a thing. No, AI will have taken over by that point. Like it was going to be a robot 3D, >> but I'd be famous. [laughter] But I'd be famous. >> What is fame? >> You guys are still forgetting. You're forgetting what if I win. >> There's you couldn't beat a cub. >> What if there's no fight? Like you're this emaciated old man. Like there's there's no meat on your bones. >> That's okay. That's okay. They just kind of invite you into the pack. That makes it even better. [laughter] That makes it even better that I'm Have you seen Grizzly Man? Have you seen the >> documentary? Bingo. I can see you walking up to the stand and God looking at you [laughter] in your in your skinny cut up body. >> He's like you. >> And he's going to be like, >> he's like, "Come on in." >> Looks over at Jesus and like really do you want to stand for this guy? >> You're going to be in the Christian ghetto. He's going to be He's going to be like He's going to be like, >> "Yes, [laughter] this guy didn't listen." >> Well, the problem is I know where you I know where you got that idea cuz there's some old kermogyny land owner that used to have some property next to your property in Colorado. And that's what he said. He's like, "Yeah, whenever I get sick, I'm just going to wait for a really cold day and I'm just going to go outside my underwear. I'm going to walk and I'm just going to keep walking and then eventually I'll just lay down and that'll be that." Were you there with me? Were you there with me or did I take off? Did I tell you that story or you >> He told me about it, but he left out the part about getting his butthole eaten [laughter] out of by the bear. He left that part out though. >> Yeah, he said on Yeah, he said he lived up He lives up there by himself. Really good man. Loved that guy. And he he literally said, "Yep. Um when I'm gone, no one's going to know. I'm just going to walk off into the into the wilderness." I was like, "You know what? >> Doesn't sound too bad." >> It's like you took that guy's story and then Legends of the Fall Legend of the Fall. Let's put it all together. >> That's why you want to be Brad Pitt from Legends of the Fall. I I want his hair. >> His I would like to call his hair his hair in Legends of the Fall. I would grow that back. Oh man, I'd look like Thor. >> Yeah. You could [laughter] Can you imagine him with like this this blonde man? That's the one thing. What if AI fixes alopecia and then all a sudden you just walk into Sunday school with this blonde mane and you've got nose hair? >> I have dark hair so it would be blonde. You really? Yeah, I have like Yeah, we can bleach it. >> Yeah, we'll bleach it. But then then you'll be able to hit the the smelling salts and you'll have some hair in there so it'll give you a little bit. It won't be directly to your, you know, spinal cord. Has never done smelling salts before. Last time I was here. Last time I was here. He's the one that watched it again. >> But was it a fresh bag? Was it a fresh bag? >> I mean, cuz we got a freshy fresh bag over there right now, bro. The last time I did it, I did it off camera, which why would you do that without the the camera? >> You did it like I did. >> Oh my god. I did it right over there. And I literally grabbed Russell Eustace as hard as I could grab him and I'm just trying to get him to take the bottle from >> Oh god. Howard. The second the second time I did it on on the show many years ago, the second load that I got, I I thought I was going to immediately throw up. >> Well, we smelled it for like two days after you would just get a random whiff of something and we we went back into it. But to get back to the scripture, we got to be disciplined. We got to be more disciplined. I do want to talk about because, you know, verse 10 just rolls right into verse 11. There was something that kind of confused me a little bit with this verse. So, I'll just start back because again, we're it's an amalgamation of a bunch of Psalms and Isaiah and different things. None is righteous, know not one. No one understands. No one seeks for God. The no one seeks for God part was confusing to me. Um, obviously that cuts against the seeker sensitive model, right? So, we've all kind of talked about that and castigated that at different times here. You know, seeking the benefits of God but not God. That kind of goes back to some some of Romans 1. >> But I feel like Well, no. What I what I feel like is that people Someone pointed this out. They're like, one thing that animals don't do is they don't look up. Like they don't look up at the stars and wonder, right? Because they're, you know, yeah, they're animals. Like they're they're they're sentient, but they're not conscious, right? There's an argument that, hey, if an animal is being eaten alive by another animal that the animal that's being eaten alive has no sense of self, so it doesn't sense this is happening to me because there is no me. They're just they are literally dancing to their DNA. But I'm like, for us as humans though, we look to the skies and wonder. And as someone pointed out on a previous forging table, I think it was Matt, u you don't, you've never discovered a tribe of atheists. It's like atheism has to be like given to you by the education system, by by the world. No, no one seeks for God. I'm not trying to contradict Paul here, but I I feel like, yeah, of course we do. What I mean, what are y'all's thoughts? That was confusing to me. I I think contrasting it with in chapter one where it says that the that God, his eternal attributes, these things are clearly seen through general revelation. So the lost man sees God, but then it proceeds to say he suppresses the truth of God in his unrighteousness and exchanges it for a lie. So I whatever whatever revelation we have through general revelation, it comes to us. We know God is real, but we don't want that God to be real. We want a God of our own making. So, we suppress the truth and unrighteousness. We exchange it for a lie. And so, to your point, you know, there there's there's all cultures have a religion. Um, that's the expression of that that exchange. Um, now can we trust God in his sovereignty, his providence, his plan for those he seeks to save that the gospel will will come to them? Those who who are clearly seeing who he is through general revelation and that he's preparing their hearts to receive it. Yeah, I think we can. But I don't think natural man in his in in his fallenness is seeking God. >> The reference here Yeah, the reference here is Psalm 14. I think reading Psalm 14 1-3 is helpful. So, uh, this is a psalm of David. The fool says in his heart, "There is no God. They are corrupt. They do abominable deeds. There is none who does good." The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man to see if there are any who understand who seek after God. They have all turned aside. Together they have become corrupt. There is none who does good, not even one. And so that's, you know, obviously a more robust uh expression than what we see here. But >> I mean, I'm I'm I'm shocked that I'm making a point for Calvinism here again, but no one seeks God. This is unconditional election written all over it. Like, yeah. I mean, >> I didn't even have to say it. >> You don't have to just look at your handiwork, baby. [laughter] >> That's what that that's what it has to that's why this doesn't make sense. No one seeks God. Well, guess what? Because unconditional election is apparently true. M >> so yeah it just goes back to you know and and I got it from Sproul but it just goes back to what you say is that none of us in our natural condition will seek after God. >> Yes. >> And so that's where it's just like we we've got to understand that and like I I think and and Sproul brought this back to like churches nowadays and you brought up the seeker the seeker movement like churches uh like nobody walking your church is seeking God. Like you can't bring them in to seek God. Like God's got to open their eyes and when and when they come in there and they're in their church in your church, they need to know they need to have the right teaching. We need to go back to the oracles and have the right teaching to bring them into obedience with what God wants them to do. >> Let me let me ask you ask you this in the context of Faith Bible as well because Faith Bible is not a seeker sensitive church. It's a church for church people. But then you know I've heard the arguments you know from like Andy Stanley who is talking about hey we're trying to make a church that unchurched people love to attend. Okay. Uh you have churches that will play secular music, you know, in the lobby to make people feel more comfortable. I've heard, you know, pastors of megaurches say, "Oh, yeah. I I cuss around the people in the lobby just to make sure that they they feel more comfortable, like, "Hey, we're cool here." Like that kind of thing. All right, bold move cotton. But then, um there's also I remember when MacArthur said this, he's like, I could not care less about what the non-believer thinks about a worship service. And so there's all this concern for the unbeliever and then the brethren is left behind with the considerations of what happens on a Sunday morning. And so I'm just wondering just collectively or philosophically as you know as our church, how do you approach that? Because, you know, I will say, you know, inviting one of my heathen pagan friends to that church, it's like I feel like I got to explain a bunch of stuff before they get in there. But then again, my explanation doesn't save them. The church service doesn't save them. The smoke machines, which we do not have at our church, like none of that saves them. If they if that is the work of the Holy Spirit, and if it is a gift, and we're going to get way more into this as we get through chapter three, then the church service needs to be for the brethren. No. >> Yeah. So, I think if if you're trying to create an environment where somebody feels like, "Oh, I'm comfortable here. I belong here." Then that's not really a church environment. They need to they need to be confronted with an environment that says, "Oh, I'm kind of uncomfortable here. Uh I I I'm missing something that all these people have. Um I don't necessarily belong here. Why?" And then they start asking bigger questions. Why is that? And I I think that's what gets them that's what softens their heart toward the the gospel. Not not placating them or pandering to their uh you know sensibilities or desires or or frankly their flesh. Um but setting up the contrast for them uh to help them see like this is a people who have something that I don't have. But strangely I I want it. I actually the truth here this is compelling to me and that and that's where I think it's it that that's what's fascinating about this this this link of verses that you know Paul lays down here beginning in verse 10 is that's offensive that group of that group of verses is that's an offense to those who are lost and perishing. I mean you you tell somebody who's lost that they don't they don't understand they don't seek God they don't do anything good not not >> together they have become worthless >> not a single thing they don't they don't do that's offensive and so offend them that's such a better tact that's such a more biblical approach offend people with the gospel offend people with the truth about who they are and then what do you do you don't tell them okay you you got to you got to turn over a new leaf and measure up no no no you offend them with the truth about who they are and then you give them grace. You give them the truth of what how much God loves them and what God has done to draw them to himself and save them through the cross and that they can't do anything to earn it. They can't do anything to lose it. All they have to do is believe it. >> I'm I'm going to say something that may I don't think this is offensive, but I'm just going to go ahead and go. >> Well, Jay just told you you're allowed. >> So So let's let's go ahead and say this. Our [clears throat] church is an amazing church, but it's very homogeneous and it's very exactly the same for the most part. >> Everybody looks the same, affluent, uh, predominantly white. >> So there there are a lot of things about that church that I could see certain people having being uncomfortable walking into our church, as much as I love it. >> And so for that reason, and I can imagine like some of my friends that I would want to bring to church and maybe feeling convicted that I haven't, >> I could see them being way more comfortable. some of the other churches in town. And so I'm not sure I agree with everything that you said, but I think there are some things and some positive things that they could possibly get somewhere else that could still set them on the path where they need to be set. And I think that they're geared more towards that person for at least a period of time and then maybe they get what they need and they move on somewhere else. I think there's still a lot of value in that. And I don't I I mean, if I'm going to pick this path or that path as long as they're getting into a church initially and getting fed and then maybe moving somewhere to faith Bible, I'm in favor of something like that because the practical alternative to that is a lot of those people aren't going to set a foot in our church. Or if they do, they're going to be there one week and never come back. So if if it's the type of person that feels comfortable at a a new exciting place that is more of the theatrical that is more catered towards that topical message and not uh just going through the scripture the way we do the expository preaching I don't really have a negative problem with that up to a certain point to where I feel like a lot of those people will eventually move to a church like us to have a little bit more deeper understanding of the word. I think God can move and however he wants to move, but I feel like we're walking into a modern time of Christianity in churches of where everything is just it's not about God. It's not about the Bible. It's about comfortability, com being comfortable. And and a lot of those seeker churches like do do good things. I came out of a seeker church. Did I learn anything from it? No. you know, but I mean I I was a part of a community, but I I just have a I have a problem with it. I I do. And the reason I have a problem with it is I feel like these seeker sensitive churches or these, you know, churches, you know, we're for you blah blah blah type of churches are trying to give the gospel like be a publicist for the gospel. They're trying to sweeten the gospel more than that than than what the sweetness of already is. Like the strawberry story, you know, and it's just like God doesn't need you to do that. God's going to work how he wants to work. Your job as a pastor, your job as a disciplehip community is to help these people grow in the word and be obedient to the word and and grow in their in their in their love and zeal for Christ. >> So Jay, how would you respond to to that kind of Adam setup? >> I don't disagree necessarily because there's there's [clears throat] lots of different kind of churches in our community and beyond. lots of different approaches, philosophies of ministry, uh what they might say, the purpose of the gathering is uh target audience, whatever. And yeah, I mean, for somebody to hear the gospel, it might take this sort of low barrier of entry. And I would never say that we would want somebody to come into our church and feel like the people are unkind or that there's no hospitality or there's no warmth or there's a coldness there. That's not what I'm saying at all as far as their discomfort. Um, I I'm saying that the spiritual aspects of what's happening there, uh, I would want them to feel somewhat alien because because this is a group, this is a body of believers gathered for a certain purpose. And if I'm not a believer, um, even if I'm not maybe connected in some meaningful way, I I might feel just a little bit out of whack. Um because I think that's ultimately what's going to if God's at work in their heart um that's one of the things he's going to use to ultimately to to ultimately draw them to himself. Now those other places I mean there's things as subtle at our church we worship with the house lights on. >> Yeah. >> You know there's other place lots of other places that are more you know sensitive to to the unbeliever. All the house lights are down and that's a part of that experience that makes it comfortable for them because they feel very isolated. I it's the person on the platform and it's me and I can't really see anybody else. We have the philosophy of we want people to be blessed by the church gathered >> to be looking across the room and seeing so and so singing even though I know that person is having a hard time. He's got cancer but look at him sing it is well with my soul or or just being able to kind of step back and look at the body together uh gathered singing praying together studying the word together flipping the pages of scripture. I think those are really encouraging things that come with just having a simple decision of having the house lights on. >> I think I now that I've thrown that out there, I would also say that I think there's a significant amount of danger in lukewarm uh Christianity at some of these churches. And so I agree with you that that's my concern with some of those is because they're not being convicted. They're like, I've gone to church. I feel good and I'm going to go still go live the way that I want to live outside of church and no one is there to hold me accountable and no one is there to make sure I'm actually following and doing what I should do. So that's that's the danger that I see in a lot of those churches because that's >> my my daughter who went off to college a few years ago. Um she'd ever she'd only ever been at like a Bible church. Uh she'd never been at a church that had like an altar call or something that was more consumeristic or secret sensitive or whatever. And so the first week of school she goes to this event on campus. It's run by a certain denomination. Um lot of kids there literally in the thousands. And a message is shared relatively short. An altar call is given. Uh the the uh appeal is to if you want to come if you want to follow God please come down. We'll pray with you. Now, there might have been something happening at the altar in those prayers, in those little counselor uh uh invitee discussions. But when she came back from the event and we got on the phone and she reported to me, she said, "Dad, he didn't even share the gospel." >> And I was like so proud. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> But she said she he invited all these people to come down and give their lives to God, but he didn't even tell them why. They they didn't understand what they were doing. And so there's the disconnect that I would be cautious about. >> Well, and so this has been a a point that Adam and I have discussed over the last couple of months to where it's like, okay, it's part of God's plan that he has these milk-based churches that super wide open door. Everyone feels comfortable. No one feels convicted. But the saving work of the gospel happens there in spite of them or because of them, whatever. And then eventually those people move on to a congregation where they can start getting some more solid food. >> The issue I see though is I can't think of an example. There's very likely one out there, but I can't think of an example of the seeker sensitive church that is also telling people, hey, y'all got about two or three years here and then y'all need to vamoose because it doesn't work with the business plan. because the business plan is we got to launch another McDonald's and we got to do it, you know, at least 15 minutes away from this one and we got to stay kind of in the region so we can control things and and that's part of the issue because the the reason I I bring up Joe Beast Church as an example. They tell people that, you know, join and, you know, start going they're like, "All right, you got three years to go on a mission trip or get out." And it's I mean, it's not that mean. And I said a little bit more abrasively than than they would, but they're just like, "No, no, you're either serious about doing the work of bringing that one more, creating a space for that one more to bring them to the saving grace of the gospel." Or you're not really serious. We don't want consumers here. We want people that are in the game. But most of these places are really just like, "Well, no, we got to keep our numbers kind of high because then x number of dollars will come in. We'll be able to pay for our next campus in cash and then we can build a gigantic ugly black building on I35 and second." And so with with an app that's free somehow. Um, and so it's it that that's the issue I think is most of those churches are not saying, "Hey, y'all need some meat. We're not going to feed it to you, so get out." >> Now, the place you're just referring to, I will say this. I don't know if they would do this today, but 10 or 15 years ago, that church did exactly what you just described. They they basically told their congregation, "We're only going to get you so far." >> I remember that. >> And let me let me name several churches in this area that if you kind of need to graduate to a deeper level of disciplehip, you should go to. I'll vouch for that also. I know they've done that. They they've told me that before because I used to attend that church. So, same here. >> Is that not their responsibility though? >> Now, now now you're on talking about a different thing. But yes, it is. >> Well, let's flip it to the new thing because I feel like >> so Craig Rochelle has said before, he's like, I will cover the deeper things of theology and of the spirit when y'all get the simple things right. I'm sorry. That's not your job to decide what what your flock is allowed to handle because you're supposed to be a defender of the entirety of the book and to teach your your flock how to how to abide in it. And they they can't know how to abide in it if you are not exeding to them and you know showing them the scripture first and then going into it not showing them life lesson and then backing some scripture in. Now, if we go back a little bit further to kind of the the the church that popularized and spread this model, if we go back to Willow Creek, >> Willow Creek. Yeah. >> Um somewhere in the mid200s, I think it was 2007 or so. Do you remember the reveal study? >> I do not. >> Okay. So, they did, you know, their their mission, I think at the time, was uh to develop fully devoted followers of Christ, I think, is what their their stated mission was. And so they brought in a consulting firm and did a deep dive with their congregations to say, "Are we fulfilling our mission? What are are we actually getting this done?" And when all the results came back over this sort of year-long study of their congregation, what they determined was no, we're not. And the primary reason why they didn't fulfill their mission as they looked at it was our people are not self feeders. They're coming to our church. They're involved in our programming, but they're not reading the Bible for themselves. They don't know how they they can't study the scriptures. And so, to your point, I think that's what happened there. Uh because there was no model for expositional study or any kind of exogetical method where I could read a text, walk through it, and kind of understand it. Because if you sit under expository preaching long enough, you can kind of start to study the Bible for yourself because you kind of see how it works. Observation, interpretation, application. just keep doing that Sunday after Sunday. Then when you sit down with God's word, that's what you do uh in your own study. But what they had learned because of their arrangement of their services that people weren't getting it. They weren't doing it and and they determined that we weren't fulfilling their their their mission to fully to develop fully devoted followers of Christ. I'll say do do you do you feel though when [clears throat] we're on on this topic and about these kinds about these kinds of churches at the end of the day there are certain things that are disqualifying if you're going to preach that like this is a problem right I feel like a lot some of the things some of the things that we're arguing about here is no different if we're talking about Methodist or Episcipellian there there's certain things that are disqualifying things that are just a theological difference between these different denominations and so I I think to be clear, I don't think anyone's advocating here that any of these churches are necessarily um unsound from a disqualifying standpoint in what they're saying about about the gospel. They might be interpreting some things improperly according to our opinion, but I I don't know that we're saying that these churches are necessarily leading people astray other than if if they're not uh convicting them of their sin and saying like that pointed out that is sin. You cannot do that. then then I could understand that. But still, I don't know where I'm going with this. But I >> I think I understand your point where it's basically like, okay, there are some seeker sensitive churches that there is no gospel presentation, but those aren't the ones that are growing seemingly. You might get one congregation in one gigantic building that used to be a basketball arena, but you're not really going to expand out from that because it's it's going to be work that's not necessarily blessed. But there are places where they are giving a gospel presentation. They are calling people to repentance. They are raising their hand. They are counting them in the annual report. And then but the the issue is is that then at some point three or four steps ahead of that there's just a roadblock. And it's the entire machinery or or the the entire uh mechanism of of how they approach ministry. Because if you are going to go deep into the scriptures, it forces you to go beyond comfort zones, beyond your intellect, sometimes beyond your wisdom to where the Holy Spirit can start filling in some of those gaps for you. >> Like, please. >> But, but I I it's hard for me to believe that some of these churches that they're doing the the whole gospel. I feel like it's a partial gospel because if it was a fullthroated gospel message, there would be some sort of disciplehip coming out of that. So what you're describing though is what took place if and we can go back a lot further than the 90s or the 2000s. This all took place in really the 30s 40s50s60s. So the parurch movement that grew up with with navigators and crew and all these different things that started because Bible teaching wasn't happening in the churches. Disciplehip wasn't happening and primarily in the old mainline churches, you know, uh we could we could rattle those off. And so the parurch ministries grew up because it that disciplehip wasn't taking place within the walls of the local church. So navigators, uh, crew, youth for Christ, we could name several more. Those started with the intent of taking people that were in, I won't say dead churches, but churches that were little more than social clubs and trying to disciple them uh, in a meaningful way. Uh, and what's happened is now over you still have churches that that want to take disciplehip seriously, but sometimes people's allegiance is more to navs than it is even to the local church because it's done such good work in their life. You know, it's a really interesting uh phenomenon. >> Yeah. And so, as we continue our march through Romans 3, I think that's a good discussion just to kind of put a bow on it. where I've kind of come to, and this is not a a fully elucidated concept because because I'm being brief, is I think that there are churches that are there to give milk, right? They they're there to give out little cartons of milk. My issue becomes whenever they try to continue to keep people there on a diet of milk only. And so I I think there are places for those churches and there are places for as we saw with the big uptick in Faith Bible in 2020, 2021, 2022 when we hockey stick as a church. There was an if you build it, they will come aspect to that. But there were people that all of a sudden something snapped them out of the malaise and they were like, "Wait a minute, milk is delicious, but that can't be all there is." And then they try some place else out and they're like, "Oh my gosh, there's there's pot roast here." And so we are the pot roast church is basically what I'm trying to say. But as we continue uh to go into to verse 12 here. So verse 12 is a continuation of verse 11. All have turned aside together. They have become worthless. No one does good, not even one. Um I love this from the RC Sproul uh Romans in a year thing. God judges our works in two ways. Outward action and inward motivation. So you're he's going to get you either way, right? Uh because we can conform to God's law, but we must also be doing that in order to please God. So if we're conforming to the law but not to please God issue. If we're not conforming to the law, it's impossible to please God. And you know, if as a pagan, you're going to miss one of those two. I also love that Sproul brings up uh who are we to define good, >> you know, like we're defining good. We're defining what's good. And then you you just alluded to the inward and the outward. I mean, Christ does that on the sermon on the mount, you know? Um, and so it's like, yeah, like I could do good actions and I can do good things, but what's my heart? Where's my heart at when I do that? >> Yeah, we've talked about that a lot on here. I think all of us have kind of admitted to different times of being like, what was our motivation behind doing that thing? Was it to feel puffed up? Was it to, you know, get some extra followers? Was it to get some extra accolades, some extra attabo? And so it it allows for that introspection that we even talked about with MacArthur, like along your sanctification journey, you feel less and less cockure uh of not not of what the Bible's telling you but of yourself and like uh how good you are. It's the exact opposite relationship couple like he was about ready to talk. >> I did too. >> I think the the thing that I also looked at too and Sproul brought this up is civic righteousness. It's like how many of us like even who are non-believers still think that we do good things. Like he said even the uh even the um how do you like a barbarian or even the non-believer would uh like save their child from a from a bear. Maybe not Adam but their child. >> Yeah. He would throw the child at the bear. >> But like it's like but that's civic duty. That's civic righteousness. It's that you're not doing that for for God's sake. You're not doing that for you're doing it for your sake. And so, um, he he brought that part up. And I I think when you're looking at this and you're looking at he's talking to both Jews and which we want to talk about the inward and outward because they think that their actions are all good. They they've lived up to the law, but inwardly they haven't. But then you'd look at the G gentile who's like, "What are you talking about? I've done good things. I I saved my buddy from getting killed from that other warrior, you know, or I saved a kid from a bear." But that's just civic righteousness. So, >> all right. Keep this going on. A couple of brutal lines in a row. 13 and 14. Uh Ryan, go and read 13 and 14 again as we go back through. >> Their throat is an open grave. They use their tongues to deceive the venom of asps and under their lips. Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness. >> And I guess we can go ahead and do uh we'll go all the way. >> No, let's just do 13 and 14. So this is Psalm 5:9. So I'll read that here. For there is no truth in their mouth. Their inmost self is destruction. Another brutal line. Their throat is an open grave. They flatter with their tongue. I mean, when I wrote, I literally wrote the venom as of asps is under their lips. That's actually another reference to Psalm 140 verse 5. So, one sec as I maneuver there. So, two lines back to back there. But Psalm 140:3, they make their tongues sharp as a serpent, and under their lips is the venom of assps. It's man, it's I feel like Crispen Mayfield over here right [laughter] now. Um, but no, like that's such a those are such brutal lines and it's like >> you read that and you're like, "Yeah, you're right." And then you're like, "Oh, shoot. He's talking about me. Dad, >> washer moment. >> That sucks." >> Okay. Name that movie ASPs. Very dangerous. Indiana Jones. Come on, dude. Indiana Jones sucks. It's Oh, man. >> It's almost as bad as Lord of the Rings. Oh, >> I just thought it was snakes. I hate snakes. I >> No, he says that. But no, this is when Salah Salah is the uh Indian guy and they they open the thing and they're trying to get down to the Ark of the Covenant and they look down there and they realize that there's ass down there. Remember, >> dude, when I'm 80 years old, I'm going to jump on an airplane to Egypt >> and I'm going to get stripped down butt naked and I'm going to go fight some ass. >> What a great >> And they're going to bite him in his ass. [laughter] start eating them. >> They won't eat me, but I'll bloat up and die. >> Right. >> So, >> would it go out like Cleopatra, bro? >> But you might you might stomp a few of them. Maybe you throw some of them in the river. >> Maybe I win. >> Maybe you win. >> Maybe there's some divine like antivenenom that just comes down. >> You just never know. >> I think it's part of the thing. You grew up watching those movies. I did not watch the first Indiana Jones until I was an adult and I thought it was awful. >> I thought it was so goofy. >> The Last Crusade. >> No, dude. Last Crusades. >> Last Crusades number one. Temple of Doom is okay, but not not really. But >> Raiders a lost art. >> Raiders is pretty dumb. >> I just thought like as I was watching that movie, I'm like he was like the least believable tough guy. I just couldn't really >> any movie with Timothy. >> But they're kind of kids movies though. I mean I feel like the audience was I mean other than the face melting scene. It was kind of [laughter] appealing to kids, wasn't it? >> I mean Harrison Ford's pretty cool. I mean >> I didn't say cool. I said >> but I mean like he's a tough guy. >> I think I think he is dude. Yes. >> Is he? This is funny. This kind of fits what our our motive. One one of the funniest things I can remember my wife saying cuz she knows I'm a big Harrison Ford fan and he he crashed his third airplane or something like that. She goes, "That man will not die of natural causes." And I was [laughter] like, >> "I want that. I want that to be me." >> And that's why you wanted to start flying. >> You know who the original actor for that went for Indiana Jones is, do you? >> Uh Gwyneth Paltro. >> No, she was she wasn't alive then. Well, maybe she was, but [laughter] uh Tom Celich. >> Oh, yeah. That's right. That would have been way better. That's kind of what I was saying. Like Russell Crow would have been way better as Aragorn than Vgo Mortensson. >> Dude, Russell Crow would have been great in Indiana Jones. >> He wasn't even around at that point. >> Was he young? >> Was he making young? >> Yeah, he was making like Oh, no. That was like 90. >> Gladiator was 2000 when he came first. Indiana Jones was in the mid80s. >> Yeah, that's probably why it's so bad. >> It was an early Spielberg movie. >> Yeah. >> Tom Celic though, >> mustache, everything, >> dude. Yeah, he had to have kept the mustache if he was gonna do that role. That would have been so much better than Harrison Ford. >> No, agree. Wrong. >> God. Well, yeah, you did name one of your dogs Indie, you know, for that exact person. >> I named my dog's Persian. Did you >> What's the name of your dog? >> Uh, her name's Roxy. >> Okay. Well, I you know, we've kind of fell flat with that, but you know, it's a good name. It's a good name for >> She's named after Clorox Wipes cuz we got her during co [laughter] >> I thought she was named after from the uh police song. >> Like, do you turn on the red light? [laughter] Have you guys gotten to the I feel like most of my friends, especially me, like I don't want dogs anymore. I'm just I've always been a dog person, but I've got, you know, three girls, uh, third, fifth, and eighth grade, and I'm I'm done with dogs. We got too much stuff going on. One dog's a complete freaking idiot. Keeps peeing in the house and then digging up, digging out, getting I had to go save the dog last night cuz it was in the pond in the neighborhood. Like, I'm just I'm ready to be done with these dogs. >> I'm done, too. >> I was there. We were there when I was your age and all our excuses ran out when CO hit and we were all on lockdown together. And so it was like we're here all day. We don't have the excuse of we're always gone or we're not here. She'll be neglected and then we got a dog. >> We've unbelievably turned into cat people. Like I we love our cat because I >> freaking hate cats. >> We love our We love our cat because our cat like when he wants to hang out, he hangs out. When we want him to hang out, he's good. But he >> he goes to the bathroom outside. >> Yeah. He goes outside. He doesn't cause problems. He doesn't do anything. I'm honestly surprised there's not a cat person condemnation in this little passage here. >> Yeah, because I just, you know, cats like there are some cats that are cool, but I want something to shake its butt when I walk in the house, right? And I'll I'll take that from a couple of different areas, but if it's my dog, [laughter] right, like that, that would be a wonderful thing to experience. That's why like cuz right now, Roman the Giant, may he rest in peace. Is he waiting for me in heaven, by the way? >> Andre the Giant. Is that what you said? >> Not Andre the Giant. Roman the Giant, my dog, who's tattooed on my leg. But I I don't know if Andre the Giant's there either. But what I'm mainly talking about my dog is my dog going to be in heaven. >> If you need him to be there, I'm sure he will be. >> If what? Wait, wait, wait. >> If you need him to be there, I'm sure he will. >> Stop lying to him. >> What? Shut up, Ryan. I I need him. I need him there. >> Can heaven be heaven without him? >> Great question. And the answer is a definitive no. [laughter] It can't be. Man, I was watching a video the other day where you're looking at this field. It's like a It's like a park and it the caption just says when you get to heaven and somebody was there waiting on you and then you see this dog running towards the screen. I was just like what if Roman's up there? And then you got dorks like Joby Martin that are like no there aren't going to be dogs up there. Are you going to miss your do you miss your binky now that you're an adult? >> Dogs will be up there. It just won't be your stinking dog. >> Whose dog is it? I don't want someone else's dog. What if it's one of his stupid dogs that everywhere in heaven? >> Yeah. How many you like? How many people have a giant schnowzer? >> A lot. >> All right. So, you think there's Hey, look at this plethora of giant freaking schnowzers. >> Yeah, but there's only one Roman the giant, you heathen. >> Oh, god. >> There's a really good >> You know what? I hope he's up there. Jay's about to make a good point. >> I hope he's up there cuz I'd it would be heaven for me to watch him dry hump you again. [laughter] >> We're good buddies. You want to dry hump your buddies? Go ahead, Jay. >> Two good books. One, Hitchcock wrote a book 55 questions about life after death and it actually addresses that question. So you need to go find it. >> Boom. >> Second good book. It's a book called Cat Dog Theology. You ever heard of it? >> No. >> No. >> Okay. So basic premise of the book is a uh a dog says >> you feed me, you take care of me, you love me, you must be God. >> That's way that cat says you feed me, you love me, you take care of me, I must be God. That's the fundamental difference between cats and dogs. >> So cats are demonic is what you're saying. You're saying that Kyle id analyzes his dog >> as God? [laughter] >> Nobody said that. No. Come on now. I put a graven image of him on my leg, but that's not that's not idolatry. I know that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Don't worry. [laughter] We'll we're I'll take my pants off during dinner. It'll be fine. >> Thank God. Came back and fulfilled the law. >> Yeah. I think that's I think that's [laughter] a good thing. And but hey, uh everyone knows or everyone should know this by now. If someone ever happened to you, I do get to inherit virgin. >> Yeah. My wife even said if I die >> like Spurgeon goes to Kyle no matter what. I have to die. >> And after all this I'm the weird one cuz I want to get in a fight with a bear. >> Yeah. No. >> Remember the whole anus thing? No. >> Yeah. None of that is being described here. But back to the venom of >> aspen. Well, the one thing I do want to get into is 15 and 16. So, real quick, Adam, if you can read 15 and 16. >> Their feet are swift to shed blood in their paths and ruin and misery. >> And go ahead. 17 and 18. and the way of peace they have not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes. >> So, uh, their feet are swift to shed blood. I mean, this is an overall like propensity for violence and this is not in the micro, right? What what's what's the joke? >> Something you're so excited. You just got to say there's a violence. [laughter] So, I I see you excited. >> I'm just so I read this verse. >> He's like the least serious person. Why does he keep getting invited back? Oh, that's my fault. Go ahead. I read this verse and like I read I read 13,4 15 and 16. 13 and 14 I totally thought of myself cuz like this is a graven image of who we are without Christ and in our flesh and our sinfulness. And then I read their feet are swift to shed blood and I was like that's Kyle. [laughter] >> I was like I was like this dude just waits for somebody. Wait read 16. Read 16. >> Here we go. >> And their paths are ruined in misery. I mean, your eagerness to confront the the disciplined member, your eagerness to confront that person, I think is highlighted in verse 15. >> The the guy who taught the active shooter class, he did go flying. [laughter] He didn't bleed, though. I mean, come on. Like, people of the book are not. I'm just saying. I'm just saying there's no blood. It just shows it just shows our depravity and the fact like man I know I would love to just like just ruin somebody's day with my words sometimes when I'm angry or maybe with a gesture on the road or something like that. Like that's my flesh getting at me. And then when I listen to you, you're like, "Man, I just wish somebody would break into my house right now. Just one time. I just I just want to use my jiu-jitsu. I just want to wrap my hairy legs around their neck and watch the life get choked out." >> And they're tapping out and I'm like, "No, please. This is real life." And then they just slowly go to sleep. Like come on. [laughter] >> There's no tapping in the streets. Jay, help me out here. >> I mean, Genesis 6, the flood. >> Yeah. >> Why? Why was one of the reasons God gave for flooding the earth? >> Not jiu-jitsu. >> Because it was filled with violence. >> Filled with Hamas is actually the word. Isn't that Isn't that [laughter] interesting? The world was filled with Hamas. That's actually a literal thing. >> Violence. >> Uh, go back it up a little bit because there's another Psalm reference in verse 14. So Psalm 10:7, the mouth is filled with cursing and deceit and oppression. under his tongue are mischief and iniquity. Um, and when we get into like 15:16, this goes back into Isaiah. So, sorry I'm not like um getting there as quickly, but Isaiah 59, Isaiah is a very long book. Isaiah 59:7 and 8, their feet run to evil, and they are swift to shed innocent blood. Their thoughts are the thoughts of iniquity. Desolation and destruction are in their highways. The way of peace they do not know, and there's no justice in their path. They have made their roads crooked. no one will tread on them. Uh, no one who treads on them knows peace. And so, my gosh, again, yeah, there there's so much of that that spirit that spirit of violence. Like I remember when people were when Hamas did uh October 7th, people were talking about the spirit of Hamas that we see all throughout the Old Testament. The spirit of Hamas that was on the earth pre flood. Um, it it's I mean it's significant because even in verse 17 when it talks about in the way of peace they have not known. The way is the way of one's life, right? One's way of life, how they comport themselves, how they carry themselves out and how we like to talk a lot about cultural on this show and the different issues that are happening in the the capital WS and all those things. You get cultural movements by a collective action. You have enough individual people that are acting out in a particular way and bending towards a particular kind of sin and that gives you the way of life that is leading to to this exact type of bloodshed. So I think that's that's here in this discussion as well. Um verse 18 though I want to ask Jay um there is no fear of God before their eyes. I think a lot of people really get the confusion of fear of God because again maybe this goes back to a little bit of biblical illiteracy. It's like wait I shouldn't be afraid of God. God's supposed to be my buddy, right? Like Jesus is my homeboy. So I guess give us an apologetic for uh or a better understanding of there is no fear of God before their eyes because this is brought up in a negative way which implies the opposite is what we should do. >> I think it's those who are just living as if there is no God which I mean we probably know dozens if not hundreds of people personally that that characterizes their life. They're just they're God. They're living as if there is no God. No accountability. Um no sense of eternity. uh no sense of a a a creator. They're and that's the way they want it. Uh they're running from God and that's what they desire. >> I mean, and the consequences of living that way are severe. And the examples in the Bible over and over and over, both Old Testament and New Testament are consistent that when someone doesn't have a fear of God, the result is not going to be good. >> And and it and it might not be good directly from God's hand. And in in the Old Testament, there's definitely more examples of it being really bad directly from his hand, consequences from not having that fear. So in the New Testament, maybe not as much, but still, it's obviously in intended to be something that is important. I think you also look at the there's no reverence for God. Like the fear of God isn't like fear, I'm scared he's going to do something. The fear is, man, I have reverence towards his power and I know what he's capable of. And like I I I don't know if I talked about this episode or last episode, but like going back and and reading first and second kings and and seeing uh Israel and Judah um two separate kingdoms at the time just start going down a different path of worshiping other gods. They start losing that reverence. They have no fear of God. And then God brings them back through punishment, you know, and like he's like now showing his hand of, you know, like, hey, I hate doing this, but you no [snorts] longer revere me. And like I've given you the oracles. You know, like the Gentiles, it's easy to be not fear. It's easy to not fear what you don't know. But if you fear what you do know and you know what it's capable of and you still want to walk past it, like there's just no reverence for that, you know? It's like I don't know a snake is poisonous, you know, and I get bit by a snake. I didn't really know. But if I know snakes are poisonous, I'm going to go play with it. I mean, I don't have fear of what reverence of what that is. >> Well, and if we go back to verse 18, there is no fear of God before their eyes. I immediately thought of the regimes of the 20th century. So, you had uh Stalin's Soviet Union, you had mouse, China, you had Pulp Pots Cambodia, you had, you know, Hitler in their treatment of the Jews, and um you know, all of those things had some all those regimes had something in common. And it was an atheistic bend to the worldview because there's been people that have tried to claim that no, the Nazis were claiming to be Christians. Let's just have a fruit judgment first of all and then see if you can kind of make that. But also, there's a reason why there's a Nazi version of the Bible and it was way worse even than what Thomas Jefferson did with his Bible where he just took out all the fantastical parts and got rid of that because it wasn't, you know, it wasn't post-enlightenment enough for him. >> Stanley did it. >> Yeah. Well, he Yeah, [laughter] that would have been even better done hitch. It's like, no, no, they there was no gospel proclamation by the Nazis and all these different groups. They were acting as if there's no one keeping score, right? They are the arbiters of truth and truth is basically given to the person that can wield the the biggest sword, I guess. >> No judgment coming. Yep. >> Yeah. Absolutely. Well, as we uh as we wrap up this section here, I want to do verses 19 and 20 again. So, Ryan, how about you read those and then we'll close out our discussion. Now we know that whatever the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law, no human being will be justified in his sight. Since through the law comes knowledge of sin. One of the first things I thought of when I read this section is when you see these videos, sometimes the man on the street interviews or the Christian apologist is talking to the ardent, you know, militant atheist, they're like, "Well, you know, if God's real and I get up there one day, I'm going to give him a piece of my mind." It's like, "Oh, buddy, no, you're not." Like, every knee will bow. It would be much better for you if you were the one that did it, though, because if God bows it for you, it's going to be problematic. So that every mouth may be stopped. like you'll say and do nothing other stuff on 19 and 20. >> I I going back to the sermon that we had this last week and I was we were talking about forbearance and patience. Um I had a I had a tough time um last week certain personal things and um I kind of let my flesh get the best of me and uh I had to call somebody and apologize uh for the way that I spoke cuz I was very frustrated and everything. And I listened to that sermon and like you know how we always talk about MacArthur and we listen to MacArthur and we're never sure about our fruit. >> Yeah. >> You know, and I >> you're never less sure of your salvation than after a MacArthur sermon about assurance of salvation. >> And so since through the law comes knowledge of sin, like I know what I did was sinful and the first thing I did was I called that person. I apologized, you know, was like, "Hey, I shouldn't have done that." But when I was listening to that sermon, the fact that I was convicted by that just made me feel of the knowledge of my sin that I bear some sort of fruit >> and that the Holy Spirit works in me and God Christ has changed me even though in that moment of flesh I didn't do right. But the fact that it bothered me all night I couldn't sleep like it just gnawed at me and that first thing in the morning I called that person. I was like I am so sorry. >> Well, don't you feel like your road to that has gotten a lot shorter? Yeah. >> Yeah. Because that's one thing like used to, you know, my biggest problem is anger and and blowing my top and then it would be days. >> Yeah. >> If ever for me to come back around be like, "Yeah, that was stupid. I'm sorry." Now it's like minutes. It's like, "So, [clears throat] nope. Sorry. That was bad. I shouldn't have said it. Whoops." And like I I mean, I even known known you for how long we've known each other. >> Yeah. Your your path to that has gotten so much shorter, >> which makes you a lot more fun to be around. Uh, still still not my favorite, but um, but >> I'm number I'm number 10 on his uh, list of >> I do have a ranking I do have a ranking of top friends in my phone. No one's it's it's a locked [laughter] note. Um, but you know, you're you're on there. It's a long list though. But I will say, Jay, verse 20. There was one question I had, you know, for by works of law no human being will be justified in his sight since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But we talked about antinomianism either last week or this week, I can't remember. Um, but it it kind of begs the question, so which Old Testament laws do we do? Because, you know, some people, again, the ardent atheist will bring up, oh, so are you wearing clothing that has different, you know, threads and different things? Or, oh, are you going to stone this child for being disrespectful to you or they're and then people are like, well, no, that's old old covenant. But then it's like, oh, so but old covenant is, you know, the ten commandments as well. So, do we are we allowed to kill people? are we allowed to lie and steal and you know all those different things. So practically speaking if someone's like okay so which parts of the law do we hang on to and which ones do we just say no no no that's old covenant we're good here. >> Good question and it it raises the question doesn't beg the question by the way. >> Oh [laughter] >> you just went from his like list of favorite pastors down here >> like [laughter] >> just a pet peeve. I do that stuff to him all the time more of that more [laughter] often. Shut up. I don't think I fully understand. Can you help me understand because I don't want to be wrong. >> Begging the question is a logical fallacy. It's used in argument. It's used in argumentation. >> Raises the raises the question. It just raises the question. It doesn't beg question. Yeah. Just just brings it up. >> Makes a change to his own notes. Did you feel sheepish the question? Let's just close out the show. Actually, let's go. No, no, no. So, so back to the question that I raised. >> So, moral law, ceremonial law, you know, these are the kind I think this is what you're asking. So, we look at the decalogue, the ten commandments. Um, I mean that's where the buck stops in my mind. So the but even the law itself was given to the Jews. It wasn't given to them to make them righteous. One, it was to show them the holiness of God and to show them they weren't righteous. And then secondly, it was to set them up as a contrast society. Um, it was so that they would be a light under the Gentiles, something they failed miserably at. So these food laws and these marriage laws and these laws regarding cleanliness and so on and so forth that was given to them so that they would look completely unlike the nations around them and yet their society would flourish in a way that no other society would do. So to follow those things through wasn't necessarily something they were doing to be righteous. It was something they were doing to show them to to to show the nations around them the God that they worship. Uh, so it was never intended to save them. And that's the the thrust of that final phrase, through the law comes the knowledge of sin. And can I >> Yeah, which I think begs the question, what do you guys think about that? What do you all think? >> Well, they missed it. Dang it. But Jay got it. All right. Thanks, J. >> I'm going to I'm going to support that by by jumping ahead to to Romans 4 because what what does Romans 4 say? Because exactly supporting what Jay just said. What then shall we say we gain from Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does scripture say? Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness. >> He was justified by faith. Only one way of salvation, >> right? Not not by works, not by works, not by the law. >> He believed and he was justified. >> Wait, not by baptism. I've been reliably informed by dorks on the internet that I got to be baptized or I don't get to go to heaven. >> It's sprinkled. Not not baptized. Dunking doesn't count. You have to be sprinkled before before you're 18. Uh those baptist pe the baptized people sound a lot like the circumcision party. So >> baptized in water or baptized by the Holy Spirit. I mean some even make that delineation. >> I got to I got to ask for oh so verse 20. Let me let me read this again. >> For by works of the law and I think Jay you sort of alluded to this. I think it's primarily moral law. It's not just talking about Old Testament here. It's also also the moral law. So for by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight since through the law comes knowledge of sin. Is is there any connection to this where there where there becomes some confusion for Catholics related to this verse >> here? Bring that up this late but for by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight. And so there I start having some concerns and some problems because that doesn't seem to just that doesn't seem to jive with what Catholics preach and what Catholics teach. >> Fair. Yeah. I mean we would agree with you. >> Okay. [laughter] >> Well, I think you can go back the nature of the religion, the nature of the way they were understanding righteousness and this is this is why when Jesus showed up as a fulfillment of the law, they didn't even recognize him. They said no way is through the Talmud and the Mishna and all these sort of commentaries and these extra writings they had built this hedge around the law. So it wasn't just the law. It wasn't just the 613 laws of the Old Testament that that they felt like they had to obey. They built another group of laws so that if you kept these then you were going to even keep your you would there's no way you would break the 613 if you kept these that were surrounding the law as that we've established as well. And so when Jesus came to fulfill the law, it wasn't that he was at crossways with the 16 613 laws that we see in scripture. It was that he was he was at odds with all that extra stuff that they put around it. And so when I think about the question you're asking, it's it's all that extra stuff uh that they've built around it and and propped up as essential. But with that extra stuff, I mean like I I feel like every church kind of goes down, not every church, but like every denomination has kind of gone down that Catholic route in the fact of like where I grew up, it was legalism, >> you know, it was like, hey, to be righteous, >> you grew up Assemblies of God. >> I grew I grew up I grew up assembly. Yeah. I mean, >> sorry, I didn't mean to between both of them. I mean, it was like charismatic, you Pentecostal, but then as I got older, it was Assemblies of God, but there was always a legalism aspect. Like I remember as a kid I would like throw my grandfather's beer out in the trash because drinking beer was wrong and you were going to go to hell. And so I feel like with with the Catholic religion or the Catholic um you know it they're setting up things to make you be righteous and then to get back to righteousness you have to go and confess and then doing these things you become righteous again. But I feel like every every denomination at some point, not every denomination, I shouldn't say that, but some denominations at some point have like always had this legalism argument of what righteousness is. And we kind of grew up the same way. >> Yeah. And my problem is always anytime it's like Jesus but. Jesus but. Or that's where I start having issues and problems because that's not what this is. It's pretty clear. >> Yeah. Or Jesus and. That's that's the other part of it to where it's like we're, hey, the gospel just isn't quite sweet enough on its own. So uh let me uh use some secular marketing techniques. uh to make the gospel seem a little bit better and more progressive. So, probably not a great idea. But anything else as we wrap up this section because we take a hard left turn next week. >> I cannot believe the term total depravity did not come up in this discussion. >> Well, it's cuz we we have uh Well, I guess no one forew that that was going to happen, huh, Ryan? [laughter] >> Well, I I was I'm not bringing it up. You guys get mad at me every time. >> No, we don't. Right. Hey, the only one that got called out on this table today was me by my own pastor, right? Was that church discipline? Did I just experience that? >> That was a that was a loving confrontation. >> Yeah, that was like a hate >> I mean I think total depravity kind of came out. I tried to bring it out when I talked about Kyle and wanting to kill people and >> but we can just skip past that because guys uh [laughter] here at the here at Undaunted Life. Uh we we're going to do a little quick resilience boost because our mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Come back here next week. We're going to get into uh verse 21. So we're taking that hard left turn. But I did want to remind you of a few things. Logos Bible software, most powerful and most awesome Bible software on the planet Earth. You should use it and use it at a discount. Check out the code that is in our show notes or the link rather. Then also we've got the Crossway forging table starter set. There are five amazing books that you can get all five at a 50% discount. And we are donation based ministry guys. If you're wondering how we can pull off stuff like this, how we can pay Jay to be here and not take notes to give to the elders later, it's because we use y'all's funds irresponsibly. And so if you wouldn't mind giving to our coffers, give generously to the brethren so that we can continue the work of equipping men to push around uh push back darkness around the [laughter] forget it guys. We'll see you next week. Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five-star review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@undanton.life. That's info@undanton.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www.undauntton.life. And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is their song Perpetual, which is off their self-titled debut album on Faceown Records. The links are in the description. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the Lion of Judah. [music] [music]