[music] This is Undaunted [music] Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. Y'all just have a moment. What was that? election connection. >> Oh god. Why don't you all just touch tips over there while we're at it? Tips of fingers. Tips of fingers. Welcome back to the forging table. The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. At the forging table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience by digging into God's word. And we're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with us. That's Ryan. That's Adam. That's Jay. Jay, I would just like to reiterate, I was talking about tips of fingers. Tips of fingers. All right. We do not get vulgar on the show. We definitely know that. But but but couple of weeks ago, maybe three weeks ago now, we put the pin in a grenade, potentially a grenade, but I uh kind of jumped the the gun a little bit and wanted to kind of go through tulip, right? Kind of explain those types of things because Faith Bible Church Well, okay. Wait, does does Mark's uh position on tulip differ from what is in like the the church's like definitions of belief or are they exactly sympatico? >> Uh they're pretty consistent. There's not a real explicit atonement explanation in the church doctrine of bylaws. So, uh there's definitely the some Calvinistic language and leanings, but it doesn't spell out the tulip in the church church doctrinal statement. >> All right. So, for those of you out there, because you know, we get new listeners every week and we get guys that are very young in their walk and this could kind of seem to be out in the weeds in the theological world, but uh tulip stands for Total Depravity. U, unconditional election. Limited or definite atonement. I, irresistible grace. P, perseverance of the saints. And so, uh, there are some that are much more, um, controversial than others. And I think that the way we're going to approach it, I want to do TUIP, and then we'll come back to the L. All right? Because that's the one that is maybe the one that's the most trippy. That's the one that I'm tripped up with the most. So, just in general, 30,000 foot view, fly over it. Where does Faith Bible Church land as it pertains to I guess you can say tulip or just sotiology that type of stuff. >> So it's kind of a reformed understanding of salvation. So we're we're not a fully reformed church. There's other things caught up with calling yourself reformed but we I would say we have a Calvinistic sotiology and that goes back to the beginning of Faith Bible. So Faith Bible started in 1980. Uh its first pastor was a guy named Russ Mcnite. Russ was a fullthroated five-point Calvinist. I mean, you might even say Tinpoint Calvinist. I mean, he he was the kind that when he he he read it into every text. So, most sermons were gonna were going to connect with something related to Calvinism. That's just the way he taught. Um, so very early on that the church was steeped and established in Calvinistic teaching. Then, uh, Russ got Russ stepped down. He got sick, he passed away. Mark came along in 1991 and being trained at Dallas Seminary, he was more of a two-IP. So, >> [laughter] >> leaving it. >> So, leaving the L out. Uh certainly Calvinistic in his doctrine, big god theology, um you know, sovereignty, all that stuff. Uh but he didn't hold to limited atonement. And it was basically not because the tulip system isn't um it it reasonably coheres. It's it's a really good philosophical way of looking at salvation, but his problem with limited atonement was he didn't really see it in scripture. So he would say, yeah, as a system, tulip is is pretty airtight, but as as a biblical framework, I have trouble with the L because I can't really find it in the word. [clears throat] And Mark is that's the word kind of holds all the cards for him. So if we go through the five points of Calvinism, it does make an acronym that is referred to as tulip or for our purposes tipole. And uh we'll get to the L at the end. Uh but total depravity um total depravity is is basically what you believe about man. And this connects with a word we used earlier anthrop what's your anthropology and your anthropology is going to determine your sotiology. So if you believe if you believe man is totally depraved so not utterly depraved. So there's a difference. Utterly depraved would say that you're as evil as you could be. Every man is a murderer, rapist, pedophile, you know, all those things. That's not what total depravity means. It just means that you're totally affected by sin. >> All of all of your faculties, all of your sensibilities are in some way tinged affected by sin. So all all men are are depraved. And just like we read earlier in Romans, you're not going to seek after God in that state. Um you're not righteous. You can't please God. So that's where we find ourselves is totally depraved. So out of that then we need somebody outside of us. We need God outside of us to save us. We need him to choose us which leads us to the U the unconditional election. So we need him to choose us not on the basis of anything in us. There's no condition. It's unconditional uh to to elect us unto salvation. So it's not of ourselves. It's totally of him. It's all by his grace and it's all for his glory. So that's unconditional election. Skipping the L, going to the I. If because of our sinful state [clears throat] and because of God's electing grace, um God is going to do, he's going to accomplish what he's set out and purposed to accomplish through his saving purposes in your life. So his grace therefore is irresistible. So his irresistible grace draws us to himself. Uh Philippians 1:6, he who began a good work in you is going to is faithful to complete it into the day of Christ Jesus. He's going to draw you to himself and and lead you to put your trust in him. >> That would be what we refer to as one saved to always be saved. Right? If you actually saint the P, the last point, perseverance of the saints, would be more the once saved, always saved. So the the historically reformed expression of the P is that all those who are saved will persevere under faith and good works. That's kind of the way a more more reformed or Presbyterian would say it. Um a Baptist would say it's once saved, always saved. So you if if if God has purpose to save you, um he's he's not going to be fickle about it. Um if you're in Christ, you will remain there. No one can snatch you out of his gracious and loving hands. So that leaves then the L the middle of the word, the third point kind of dangling. Um but again, it's a part of the reasonable system uh when it's laid out. And I should just say I don't want to go back through the church history, but these are an expression of Calvin's teachings, but Calvin didn't actually come up with the five points of Calvinism. They were a response to uh the followers of Jacob Arminius. That's why the other major system of sotiology is called Armenianism because it's tagged on his last name. And so they published these five points and the Calvinists responded to the Armenian five points with these five points of their own. So five points of Calvinism came one after Calvin and they came as a response to the Armenian argument. And the that middle uh letter the L is limited atonement. Some people don't like the word limited very much. So they'll use particular redemption um as a way to uh talk about limited atonement. It it effectively means that Christ died for the sins of the elect. So his atonement was limited to those whom God has saved. And the the logic behind that is if they died for um if if if Christ died for all men, then all men would be saved because that's how powerful and effective uh his atoning sacrifice would certainly be. >> And that's where like I kind of got hung up for a while. U I'm not so much hung up on it anymore. There's actually irresistible grace is where I'm a little hung up. So I might ask you some more questions. >> I'm hung up on both. So yeah. >> Um but like with limited atonement like Joby Martin put it this way. He's like if I put out a free Chick-fil-A sandwich in the newspaper >> and uh I put out a coupon for that and it goes out to everybody in Jacksonville, Florida, but only 500 people use the coupon. Chick-fil-A doesn't want me to pay for everybody in Jacksonville. I just pay for the 500 that redeem the coupon. And so I always I always looked at it as with limited atonement is the atonement is sufficient for all but efficient only for the elect. >> Yeah, that's kind of the four and a half point position which is where >> is that where you're at? Cuz that's where that's kind of where I find myself. It's irresist. >> So atonement is sufficient for all uh is sufficient for all but only efficient for the elect. >> And so because that kind of makes sense to me. Did you have something you want to say? >> I I I think that's what Mark says as well. Not not attempting to put words in his mouth, but I can remember when he preached on this, he was talking about the >> specifically the blood of Jesus and who it covers and like he didn't find anything in scripture. Tell me if I'm saying this wrong, but that the blood of Jesus doesn't cover every it's there. >> It's [clears throat] it's just limited to the one. >> Well, it's like John 10:15 is what I pulled up and it's like uh I lay I I lay down my life for my sheep. >> And then if you look at Matthew 1:21, that's where he's going to save his people, >> you know? Um, and so that's where I'm like limited atonement after unconditional election and looking at that at limited atonement. I guess I'm a four and a half pointer, you know. Um, that just made sense to me. But irresistible grace, this is where I I I >> Before we move to irresistible grace, I I have a question on the the Chick-fil-A thing cuz the one thing that I didn't buy or didn't like about the Chick-fil-A example >> is [clears throat] Chick-fil-A has to prepare for 8 billion people to show up like and claim their chicken sandwiches, right? And so that that's why it's like okay if it's a limited atonement we don't know again we we can't assume the knowledge of God here. Yes God knew before time like not who would choose him because it's irresistible grace like who he made choose him right like >> well we're also looking at Chick-fil-A and we're and God and so like that's >> using it to prove but what I think like where it comes into is the atonement is sufficient for all. So Christ dying on the cross is sufficient for everyone. Just like that coupon is going to be sufficient for everyone to show up to Chick-fil-A and Chick-fil-A is going to give them a sandwich, whoever wants to redeem that coupon. It's not going to be like, "Hey, does Chick-fil-A have enough chicken for the sandwiches." You know, we don't know which which place they're going to show up, but it's sufficient for all, but only efficient for the people who use it. >> I that makes sense to me what you're saying. Yeah. just like >> in the example it's like so did Jesus die for the sins of humanity or the sins of the ones that God chose right I guess that's the ultimate question >> and that's the thing is he died it's his death is sufficient for humanity but really in the end he's only going to die for the elect feels like it's splitting hairs a little bit I don't disagree with how you're explaining >> it is totally splitting hairs yes so you're not wrong in interpreting it that that way and I think I think one of the reasons people hold to it is because they think The alternative then is universalism. >> Okay. >> So if >> Yeah. Everybody's saved. >> Yeah. If if Christ's blood is salvific, if it if it if it provides atonement for all, then all should be saved. >> Yeah. >> Because that's that's the logical way to >> That's where you go to John 3:16. Think that through. Yeah. For God so loved the world. And and some people some people strong Calvinists might say, well, that's just saying God so loved Jews, Gentiles. That's what I would say, you know. So he he loved the world. He didn't just love Jews, but he loved he loved all people. And so yeah, whosoever amongst those, you know, different categories can believe in him and have eternal life. >> So I think I've sufficiently expressed or at least as much as I'd like to my issues with limited atonement, but I too get hung up with irresistible grace because this is I guess maybe this one it feels the most violative of free will, like being able to choose. Um, and that's where I kind of make the the tongue-in-cheek joke where it's like, you know, however you came to Christ, whether you know, you put your faith in him or you were held down by the Holy Spirit and forced into the kingdom, whatever. Um, like that's that's what irresistible grace, how it's been explained to me. That's what it feels like is it's like, no, no, he chose his team, right? Had nothing to do with how good we are because we're depra depraved, blackhowarded sinners. I don't think anyone, well, not at this table, has any issues with total depravity. I'm sure some would quibble quibble with it, but it's like wait, if it's irresistible, then there is no choice. Then in that matter, we are automatons. And then I just, you know, I have that ringing quote in my head of CS Lewis from your Christianity that a world full of automatons is not a world worth creating because if you're an automaton, you're not capable of love because you're basically dancing to your wiring. Well, and before you like go into answering that, I would I' I'd like to show like what what I where I see it kind of differently is like we're we're called like it says to repent and believe. And so I I I go back to the verse of like the only unforgivable sin is blaspheming the Holy Spirit. >> And it's like, how do you blasphem the Holy Spirit? Well, the Holy Spirit opens my eyes to the beauty of the gospel and I choose not to repent. So we were using that word choose now you know because I have to repent and believe. If I choose not to repent then I and if that's if that can happen then I you know how do how do how do I correlate irresistible grace to that? I think that's what that's where I get hung up. >> Okay. >> So like uh you'll probably predicting where I'm going to go with this but like John chapter 6 of course. >> So no one comes to the this is Jesus speaking. He's got a group of disciples in front of him. No one comes to the father unless the spirit draws him. the word actually is drags. >> Um so the spirit has to do something to bring you to the father. And it's interesting at the close of that um that that that passage, it's a discourse from Jesus there in in John's gospel, a bunch of the people following said, "This is really hard. I don't and they departed because the because the teaching was just too too tough." Um so you think about that and then and then uh oh gosh, I was going to cite another verse, but it's getting late. And so anyway, >> is that Romans 8:30? >> Uh, no, but it's Oh, it's Romans 9. Okay. So, uh, it is not left to the man who runs or the man who wills, but to God who has mercy. So, we're not we're left to him who chooses to to to work in us. And I think even if you back up further further into um John's gospel, the the dialogue that Jesus has with Nicodemus. >> Yeah. >> You know, you must be born, you must be born again. So, uh, you didn't choose to be born the first time. Uh, spiritually, something has to happen for you to be quickened and made alive. And that's up up up up to God's, uh, sovereign choosing. >> So, but but the word drag means that he that the Holy Spirit's going to drag us until we until we believe. >> Yeah. >> And so, like, what what's with the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit? >> I think you nailed it. >> You think I nailed it? >> Yeah. I think I think it's it's it's rejecting it's rejecting the gospel. It's attributing, you know, in that context, some of somebody might say that it's attributing the works of God to the works of Satan. You know, sort of that was was going on in that immediate context. But, uh, yeah, I would say the unpardonable sin is is blaspheing the Holy Spirit, re rejecting Christ. >> But if it's irresistible, how could you resist it? >> That's my question. >> Well, because if you're being dragged along and it's just like, all right, it's just a matter of time. But then you blasphe the Holy Spirit. That is a rejection of something that is supposed to be irresistible. >> Right. But I I but but you're not in a position of neutrality. You're rejecting the Holy Spirit the whole the whole way. >> The whole way. Yeah. Yeah. So >> like pre-drag. >> So yeah, it's not and I don't want to necessarily tether those two passages or those two bits of teaching together um because I think they're saying a little bit of different things. But yeah, rejecting it's not that we come to this point and reject the Holy Spirit. We're rejecting God's revelation. the whole time. Um, and so we we but when he wants to overcome our hearts and that's why we talk about faith being a gift, we talk about this righteousness being a gift. >> Um, he does that irresistibly. Uh, so if God is going to >> set a different way, if if God is purposing to save you, he's >> he's not going to fail. And that's where like I have a problem with free will is because like we're going to get into this in verse 27 is like when we say like we found Christ or we chose Christ rather than him choosing us. It feels like we're boasting >> and the fact that we're more knowledgeable and we're more smarter because we chose him over this idiot all guy over here who's depraved that is just lucky that God chose him. Something I've heard you say before and maybe was even when we had our discussion a while ago was like something about >> and I'm putting words in your mouth but try to correct me on this is like if if you had two directions to go and one way was like edifying myself versus this way was edifying God and I had a decision I had to make I'm going to go that way every single time. >> Yeah. I think we were going back and forth because you were having a conversation with an Armenian buddy and I'm just like hey I can see where he's coming from. Like I see that but like in the end I have two paths. I can go and edify myself and bring salvation on me, but in the end, like with anything, I'm going to put it more towards God and his sovereignty because he is greater than I. >> Because I've heard you say that more than one time. And I've I have found that very compelling uh to me because it's like, yeah, am I going to lean on my own understanding and and the way I want to interpret things? Because the longer I've gone through this journey where, you know, most now maybe understand I'm sort of on the fence and try to evaluate these things. the more I read the Armenian side of things, it's more of it's more in my head space, like what I feel and what and what feels good to me and like the free will idea and it's like that's what I want. And I'm I'm I'm continuing to feel more convicted and the more to be blunt and honest, the more I've spent time in the word, the more the more time I've I've spent and read through the Gospels and read through the New Testament, look, more often than not, I'm continuing to find myself more on this side of things. I continue to read it over and over and over. And to be fair, I don't really like I don't like it, but it's not about it's not about me is what I have to >> Well, I don't I don't want to get too far off off this point. So, Ryan, say stay with where you're going to go. I was trying just one sec just with what something Adam was saying. So, here's kind of my kind of my issue on like Yeah. on like choosing or whatever. >> Okay. So, like kind of right now, like if you smoke cigarettes, you're just kind of an idiot, right? Like there's it's not like 20, 30 years ago. You looking for a Bible? Oh, no. You got your phone. Um, so [clears throat] if you choose to not smoke cigarettes and instead choose to eat a healthy diet and exercise regularly, just because the outcome is good and desirable doesn't like you chose the right thing. It was still the righteous thing. It was still the thing that you were supposed to do given the knowledge, right? So why isn't it that you know God is calling you but you are still choosing okay yes I am going to put my my faith in that I don't understand why it's like okay you can know that smoking cigar like everyone that smokes cigarettes are like yeah I know these are killing me right they're just choosing to blasphem the Holy Spirit in a micro example I guess you know of like smoking cigarettes that's part of my issue to where does that does that make sense I hope I'm making sense but it's just like just because you have the knowledge and you made a decision that ended up being positive you still chose like there was still a free will component to that because you could have rejected it and done whatever you wanted to do anyway even though you knew it was going to lead to your destruction. >> The only problem is scripture I think it pretty clearly says that left to your own you're never going to choose. Yeah. >> That's like I keep reading it over and over. >> But if but if the law of God the moral law is written on our hearts and like none of us like that hey if you're an atheist you have to try to be an atheist, right? like that type of thing. Like if it's already on there, right? If people are going to be judged that have never heard the word, that have never heard the gospel, then how come that doesn't apply? >> Because Jesus said they will be judged based on what they will what they did know, right? The Pharisees challenged him. >> But they're being judged. >> They would know the moral law. >> They wanted to chose they wouldn't choose to be judged on moral law. They wouldn't choose to be judged on their morality rather than give up their faith to Christ. So, I mean, that's what it comes down to. I >> I mean, I think the question you're asking is if somebody hasn't heard about Jesus, would they be saved or could they be saved? Right. >> Absolutely. >> That's I I feel like that's a separate issue from what I was bringing up. It's like, hey, you are well aware, you have the intellectual capacity and the evidence to show this way will lead to life, this way will lead to death. You still have a choice in the matter. You get to choose which road you go down. But you just attributed to that whatever that person's response was, if it was positive, you just attributed them some kind of value that led them to to to to choose that intellectual ability or so if if if you go down that road, you you you eventually land on there must be something in that person that caused them to choose Christ. Whether it be some measure of intellect, spiritual sensitivity, some sort of mystical connection, there's something there that if it's left to them would merit them the ability to choose uh from within themselves. And that's just not a place I think the gospel takes us. >> So there is no there's there's nothing >> there. I mean, I'm not saying your salvation is is is not connected to your intellect or your ability to reason. I mean, I think all that stuff's factored in. Um, but I don't think it was it's because of you personally. Like I found something there's something in me. >> I am the greatest decision maker that has ever decision made. Like that attitude. >> Yeah. So you and and perhaps like in Acts 16 when Paul pulls up to to Philippi and he interacts with Lydia per perhaps it's just sort of narrative language that led him to say the Lord opened up her heart uh for her to to believe the gospel. It'd be odd. It'd be an odd thing to drop in even as a >> but but in his mind there seemed to be something sovereign happening that caused her to respond to the truth of the gospel. >> This might get us way out into the weeds. So I'm happily happy to be shut down. >> Two things that I've struggled with significantly. Um uh okay. First first would be babies that die in the womb. >> Um I have I have two babies waiting on me in heaven and two that are here with me. >> [clears throat] >> um were they elect or were they not elect? Um kids that are 12 months old or younger, right? Eight maybe two years old and younger, they've not they're born in sin, but they haven't chosen sin. >> Again, even that is awkward to say out loud. Okay, what happens to to one of them when they pass away? The example I used with Joby was that 18-month old baby that was raped to death by a gay couple in the UK. So if this kid's not elect, so you want to talk about hating evil. People in our Sunday school, that got a little squishy. Sorry. Looking at you in the eye, you got a little squishy when I brought up Psalm 97:10. Oh, you who love the Lord hate evil. What are you going to do with that verse? You squishy pansies. But at the same time, in that particular context, what if that kid's not elect? So for 18 months, he was raped by two demonic like individuals and now he gets to burn eternal hellfire. Now what Joby explained to me is uh Piper's read of Romans >> one >> is is that they they are basically ascended directly to the father when they die in the womb >> uh at any point after um uh fertilization and uh but then there's at some point there is that age of accountability but then I also think about people that are uh mentally in some way and you know their wreckabilities or they're there's some sort of a crippling physical and or mental ailment that they they can't decide whether or not to use the bathroom in their pants or on the toilet. And so that's where my argument starts to fall apart. Where what do they bring to the equation? Then I'm like, okay, is everybody that is in that state >> uh you know, elect? Are some elected, some not? >> I would agree they are elect. [laughter] >> So that see you know >> I mean I think we lean on the goodness of God. Will not the judge of the earth do right? Yes, he will. So, he knows the ins and outs of every one of those situations and we trust him to do act according to his goodness and according to who he is. You know, I I think I think there's a a lesson in the life of David that I'm sure you've read about and I'm sure comforted you when you lost your kids, which when David lost a child in infancy, he's grieving, he's praying, he says, "I will go to him." Um, meaning he's in heaven and I'm going to join him there. So, I think we take great solace in that. and and apply I think. And so then the question comes next. Well, was that just covenant children? Is that you know it's like >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Don't give Kyle something else to do. >> Oh, my brain's already bleeding from trying to figure all >> because I think another one if if you believe in in certain things about esquetology, um if the rapture is imminent and if it happens tomorrow, you've got a 2-year-old and a 5-year-old. Are they going up? And if not, are there is God just gonna leave them to exist in the darkest days of human history uh without parents? >> Well, I was planning on sleeping tonight. Guess not. [laughter] But yeah, no. >> You got to think of the goodness of God. >> Yeah. But you got to think of the goodness of God. And you got to think of I I think it's funny when you talk about uh the rapture as it relates to, you know, kind of premillennial esquetology. um you get covenantal in your thinking real fast like well it's the children of believers that will also be raptured you know so um I just think that's another aspect of the whole conversation children age of accountability some of those sort of you know >> and I guess when you lean on the when you lean on the but I you know believe and trust in the goodness of God good grief there's a lot of suffering that goes on all over the place under the purview of God and for his purposes because I'm not assuming the judgment seat of God to say that there is nothing positive no positive fruit that can come from that but that becomes a little little bit rough. But we see the goodness and the love of God even through chapter 3 and verse 21 and and everything. The righteousness of him that he sends himself. He sends himself as his son and dies and takes on the wrath of sin. And like if he's going to do that for sinners, what do you think he's going to do for the lowly of the lowly, the 2-year-olds, the 18-month-old who went through hell, you know? I don't think he's going to be like, "Well, you weren't elect." You know, I don't I don't believe in a god like that. >> Would a strict Calvinist agree with what you just said? Probably not, but I'm not a strict Calvinist. >> No, I'm I'm wondering I'm trying to steal man their side and trying to understand their >> position. I'm I'm not a strict Calvinist. Uh, you know, I I still have my questions. I I still And the only way that I say I'm a Calvinist is so that people know that I rely on God sovereignty more than I do free will. And with we're going to have an argument in regard to theology and God, you're going to know that I'm going to go to the side of his sovereignty more than I'm going to go to the side of my free will. Other than that, I'm just a Christian, you know, like I don't even like to use the term Calvinism all the time. I just want to give people a good idea if they're going to try to have a conversation or debate me where I'm coming from and I might be a little bit more reliant on this side. So, but there was some things that if we're we're done with that conversation, um >> let's just add one more thing to that. That's okay. Don't don't forget that. But it's on the No, >> I was looking I was looking for this in Romans 8 >> uh Romans chapter 8 32. I'm trying I was trying to remember and I think this is relevant. Well, let's just back up to 31. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own son, >> but gave him up for us all, how will he not how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? >> Yeah. >> I mean, that's he how does that apply to my two kids? >> He who did not spare his own son, what happened to his son? He sent He sent his son flesh and blood to earth to die for us. >> Yeah. >> For those that would believe. >> But your sons aren't at the age of accountability. >> When is that? >> I mean, that's the mystery of God. >> That's that's what we do. We get put in a corner. We just back away and say mystery. >> We We have to put it in God's hands and trust that God that we rear and raise our kids and that God opens our eyes to the gospel. So we put as much kindling around them and then when the Holy Spirit >> But don't you feel like you're trying to sol you're trying to solve it in your own human brain and and in the own way that you want to solve it which I I get. I want I want it to be right for me. >> But we don't get to live in the world that you and I want to design. We live in the world that we have to live in because we're a bunch of freaking idiots and Adam and Eve sinned and now we've got to deal with what we've got to deal with >> and we can't control everything. Like it's so hard to give up control all the time. I'm uh somebody said it best to me where I I was having a problem, you know, like being gone with my job and everything because I wanted to be with my family and he's like, "Why do you why what's the issue?" And I was like, "Man, I feel like one, I'm missing out on things and two, I'm not there to take care of them." And he's like, "Well, God loves them more than you do. You need to give up control of your family to God, you you know, and I'm like, man, I found so much like peace in that and the fact that it's like I can trust God with everything else, but and you can trust God with everything else, but you can't trust him enough to to let your boys, you know, your life and >> Yeah. What I would say, I don't know if it's necessarily um insufficient control as it is insufficient understanding, which again with my finite brain, I couldn't possibly like understand all of the connections between everything that could ever happen and the the totality of human history. Yeah. Okay. Can't do that. But it's and it's not even about pacification of my worry because it's like but I do worry. before we even had kids. I was like, is our desire to have sex and procreate going to lead to little Thompsons that are destined for hell? Because I would much rather just not have kids, right? Even though, but we are told to be fruitful and multiply, but we ignore scripture all the time. So, let's just add that to the list because it is way better for me to ignore some part of scripture and and to sin in that way than it is for me to bring in human beings that will eventually suffer for eternity. >> And so, that's that's the issue that I have. So, it's not about necessarily control because I would love to be able to control their salvation, be highly convenient, check the box, move on. So, I'm just >> And there's some parents that do that. >> Yeah. And but I'm just left with the kindling thing, putting as much kindling around them as possible so that when the spirit sparks it, it just goes up like a bonfire. And so I'm just even curious from from where you would u land in terms of like trying not necessarily trying to control but just trying to understand so that I can rest easy knowing that the two kids that I never met are not eternally burning in hell with whatever level of consciousness they would have. I I mean I've preached some gosh three or four funerals of children who either died in you know third trimester late uterero or um infancy. And I lean on the passages we just discussed, you know, the the the testimony of David. Um the the the heart of Jesus, you know, who loved children, called them to him, used them as an example. Um and then just confidence in who God is in his holiness and righteousness. But and I think this this discussion is going to come back again in the book of Romans at the middle of chapter nine when you start talking about potters and clay. I mean, we're clay. >> Mhm. We're clay and and we I it's humbling. Um but he God has creator rights over all of us. >> Yeah. Which even goes back to Joe where it's like I'm sorry, where were you when I did all this? >> Up your loins. >> Yeah. >> So he can do whatever he wants. >> One thing that I wanted to point out is that um you you brought up worried, you know, like am I am I going to bring kids into this world and they're going to, you know, spend eternity in hell. You could also have the thought of like if I bring kids into this world, you know, are they going to live a poor life? Are they going to be taken care of? Are they going to do these certain things? And I I go back to what Christ said is like, you know, why worry? You know, um I've clothed the flowers. I've clothed the flowers and I've fed the birds. Like, why would I not take care of you? And that that's just something that I lean on. even though I may not have the control, but but if God in Christ said that they're going to take care of me, I believe that they're going to do the same thing for my children. And so, and I hope and I pray that it's a fun belief and yet there are people that have parents who are going to heaven and they will not be in heaven. And so, like, as much as you can want and care for that, and it's a it's a it's a thing that makes you feel good on the inside, it's just not real like on the outside because yes, you you you've done the kindling, you did all the things, and yet for whatever reason, they weren't elect. >> The reason is that they're sinners and they want no part of God, >> which was their choice, or they were predestined to do that anyway, >> or both. >> They're they're sinful. I mean, that that is their their choice. I mean, we we we we don't blame Adam and Eve as if they're the kid who spoke up, you know, talked out loud in class and got the rest of the class in trouble. No, they they are our they are our representatives. They're our perfect if God is going to choose if God is perfect and he's choosing for us representatives, he's going to choose for us perfect representatives. Which is to say, >> the way Adam and Eve acted in the garden is the way every single one of us would have acted in the garden. So, we can't just blame them. Oh, they really screwed it up for us. [clears throat] No, that what what they did, we all would have done. And so nobody is innocent. Nobody. And >> pill to swallow. >> Yeah. And so and when those who are cast into hell, they're by their own choosing given, you know, original sin and and that federal representation that we have in Adam. Uh but again, not a choice that we would have made differently. uh we're not those people who chose themselves above God. They're not clamoring to be with God for eternity. They've already made that decision. >> So not there's not a great transition from here to but I mean but we're going to get right into the text which can get into that. Do not ruin my transition. Do not ruin You've had a lot of time to talk because I was trying to transition to that last time. >> You're over there like bbopping and making your own noise over there because I've been hacking this up. Oh, I messed this up the whole time. Go ahead. Whatever. >> I want to know because we brought we went back to the garden. We went back to the beginning and and you're like, "No, I'm going to go back to the second act." No. And so basically my question is >> the serpent in the garden. Was it a snake or was it a dragon? >> I like the dragon idea. >> Why? Why though? >> Uh I don't >> What was the punishment? >> Uh >> you will be forced to, you know, slither around your stomach. Why would that be a punishment if you were already a snake? >> Huh? >> Who says he could have been a lizard? The lizard's not dragging around on their belly. They got all the dragon's got wings and four legs >> and stuff. Why wouldn't it just fly? >> Why wouldn't what fly? >> Why are we talking about this? I actually have an actual good thing to talk about. >> That's the punishment is because it had wings and arms and legs and now part of the punishment is you got none of that. You got to slither around. >> Hey, I have a question. I have a question. If I agree it's a dragon. >> No, we're not attaching it to anything. >> Will you let me Will you let me and Adam talk about the thing that I want to talk about? I was going to let you talk about it anyway, but I'm telling you all Jay said he likes the idea that it's a dragon. I want to know what it was though. If you had to put, you know, if you had to put everything on black or red, right? So, we're putting all the money house money included on that. Was it a Was it a snake or was it a dragon or some other reptile? >> Serpent. House. >> Yeah. All of it. We're pushing it all on everything. Or is it a >> So, are you saying are you saying like a a a I can't say mythical creature. So, we don't know. >> Um, are you saying like a dinosaur or like more of a >> He's saying like a dragon. >> How would I speak for me? How would I speak for me? How would I >> You saying like how to train your dragon? >> More so that dragon. >> Yes. >> It had to have legs. It had to have legs. >> It had legs. It was a snake. >> It wasn't a snake. >> It was a lizard. Like a serpent lizard. >> What is intimidating or enticing about a lizard? Come on now. >> A lizard. >> Get out of here. [laughter] You got freaking the Geico gecko over there trying to talk to you. But do you think but do you think it could have looked like incredibly scary or demonic or bad? Probably not because they weren't repulsed by it. They were willing to listen to it. So >> yeah, if a awesome like dragon was flying through the sky along with all the other birds and there were probably pterodactyls. I don't know what does Ken Ham think uh that was happening at the time. Yeah, they were probably look at that beautiful thing. They didn't know to be scared at that point. There was no sin. >> Kyle's Kyle's mind of the Garden of Eden and the the serpent talking to Eve is this big old dragon. Say it again. for the people in the back. >> That's a good tree that is bent over and Adam's oblivious to this big old dragon. [laughter] >> Why would they have fear? Yeah. Why would they have fear? That's a pretty >> Why would they have fear? Sin has not entered the cosmos yet. There's nothing terrifying about any animal. >> So, the dragon's only scary to us because we're all pants. >> Dragons do show back up in Revelation. So, it's not unprecedented. >> Yeah. But no, but then >> dragons though. So there >> turned into a dragon over time. >> No, but there's still dragons. >> Let's talk about the Nephilim. If there's still [laughter] >> that sounds Yes. Book of Enoch. Any opinions? >> No, but I saw a great shirt that said introvert but willing to discuss Nephilim. [laughter] >> Is that Is that the Is that like the angels that were like like on Earth that procreated with humans? >> Yeah, that's that's the rumor that they procreated with humans and like >> the rock people from the Noah movie. >> Yeah. Well, >> maybe Goliath was a def descendant of them and >> let's just get into it. All right. So, where why are there giants? Why is Goliath a giant? [laughter] Come on, man. Let's go in. Who killed Kennedy over here? >> Who did Okay, fine. Fine. >> So, Adam, you and I kind of grew up in the same >> type of like charismatic. >> Charismatic slain in the spirit. >> Yeah. Um, I was Armenian >> for the longest time. >> I don't know if you ever ever told me that. >> I feel like I have. Maybe. But maybe I haven't. No, he didn't. He's a liar. But go ahead. [laughter] Keep going. I was I was an Armenian and an egalitarian. >> We're even We were even closer than I realized. >> Hey man, I still love John Tyson. >> So, >> it's like I'm on the same [laughter] journey you were just 10 years later. >> Yeah. So, uh you had a buddy that you were sending me texts with. Are you okay? I'm not going to use his name. I'm going to read Yeah. >> read it, though. But I it it just really stuck out to me. Um he said part of the problem is Calvinist reformed have tended more to academia and scholarly work and Wesland Armenian more to ministry and mission. One thought I had since we talked was about the value of human beings. Wouldn't it stand a reason that a person who was elected for damnation would have less value than the elected for salvation? And I replied back um he made some interesting observations in his text. reformed Calvinism more toward academia and scholarly work and Armenianism towards ministry and mission. Being on both sides, I kind of understood this. I go, I would agree on this, but it's not a problem or a bad thing. Being academia and scholarly makes sense in that a Calvinist argument is usually rooted in scripture. The Armenian and is ministry and missionoriented, which probably plays a role in the human emotion aspect. Uh both of these are not bad things. We should know about God's sovereignty and who he is. But we should also have an emotional aspect towards the unbeliever because of where they are going if they don't believe. Notice his argument in his follow-up question is one based off human emotion. Notice he goes into human value. I provide no value apart from Christ. All I bring to my relationship beforehand is my sin. An unbeliever is obviously uh oblivious to their depravity and God's value. As a believer, rather than question one's value who is not a believer, I question why has God shown me grace and open my eyes to the beauty of the gospel. Like from Mark's message today, we must remember who who we once were and that emotion should drive us not only being grateful of God's change in us, but remind us to share with others that gratefulness. I mean, I think that kind of sums up like kind of my change from an Armenian aspect to more of a a a god sovereignty Calvinist aspect. And so I didn't I didn't get kind of gauge your thoughts on that, but you know, I wanted to to bring that back up. >> Yeah. The most compelling thing to me is is same thing like I already said it earlier. It's interesting that this is kind of paralleling that, but where you said notice his argument and his follow-up question is one based off off of human emotion. What have we been debating for the last 10 to 15 minutes? But human emotion as it relates to these different things. And it's hard to not go there. It's hard to not, you know, [snorts] consider those kinds of things. But like I said earlier, every time I've ever been for my entire life leaning towards the Armenian side of things. I've I've had to get it to the point to where it's what feels right in my heart and it's what feels right in my head. And I' I would bluntly say that it's probably not and wasn't previously rooted in what scripture says. And so that's why I feel like my world has been a little bit flipped upside down and now I'm questioning what I've always felt like was right in my heart and what seemed right to me because the more I read over and I've been sh we've been sharing text back and forth. >> The more I've read and the more I've I've dumped I've jumped into things, I continue to fall on this side of this this side of of the fence. And so >> when I want to make the decision, >> I [clears throat] I want free will. Like that makes sense. Like let me make the decision. like I'm in charge, but that's not what's here. >> I think what pulled me out of my cage stage though, because like I got so big on God's sovereignty that there's there's a tinge of Armenianism that like I feel like we miss out on and that's being, you know, the emotional part of like caring about the unbeliever or caring about the person like you had those questions. Kyle has these questions rather than trying to be right or trying to trying to like win the argument. It's like, how can I emotionally find out, you know, and be with you on that level and know the hurt that Kyle's thinking about? Kyle's thinking about his boys, you know, and I totally get that because I think about my children, too. And it's just like I want to provide the freedom that I feel in God's sovereignty to to ease his worry that it eases mine, you know, and like and and so I I feel like sometimes cage stagers or when we're in that cage stage, we miss out on that human part. we miss out on that emotion, you know, and and and both things are good is what I was trying to point out with what he said. It's like, yeah, scholarly that makes sense because we're rooted in scripture. I mean, a lot of a lot of the Calvinism, God sovereignty argument is rooted in scripture more so Armenianism is rooted in emotion and ministry. But those two are those are two good things. You know, I think the nuclear bomb I used to always use, which is probably the same one that I used in and I've haven't have not gone back and and seen our debate that we had last time, but the US one I usually go is if Calvinism, then why the gospel? Because I've always felt like what the heck's the point? Why am I going to spread the gospel? Why does it matter? It doesn't matter because we're all elect. What the heck difference is it whether you hear it or not? Because you're there's no point. There's absolutely no freaking point. And that that's one of the things that I've always hung my hat on is that if Calvinism is true, if Calvinism is right, then why in the world do I need to share the gospel? >> Because Jesus said so. >> That's what I always that's what I said last time and I still got the same question, you know. But yeah, but like it's because yeah, it's what we're called to do. And like I think >> people have to hear it, you know, and and it's our call. But like I get it. I I get the >> I think there there's something that gets glossed over when you say that though because is that true? Correct. but also correct. There's plenty of things that Jesus said that we don't do, >> right? >> Agreed. Yeah. >> And so it's like whether you feel convicted by the Holy Spirit to share the gospel with whomever is is in there in that moment, you can still choose not to and they're either elect or they're not. Correct. That's correct. >> Because what do we like to say? We always like to say we can lead them to the door, but only the Holy Spirit can walk them through. Well, like the Holy Spirit's going to walk them through one way or the other. Whether we lead them to the door or they're off in the middle of the field, >> right? Why don't we lead them the door? uh late 18th century William Kerry, father of modern missions. He's a particular Baptist in London. So particular Baptist, another way of saying hardcore Calvinist Baptist, particular redemption, limited atonement. >> They and and to this day, particular Baptists, they don't do missions because their their thoughts on Calvinism is God's going to save people. He's he's going to save. We don't need to go. >> We need to spend expend our resources to send people to do something that we're just going to put in the hands of God. So what does Carrie do? He he writes this this treatus. It's an it's called its nickname or its shorten name is an inquiry. I can't I can't do the whole title, but it's it's an inquiry into the use of means for the conversion of the heathen or something along those lines. So, he's basically saying if if God's going to purpose salvation for people, he's not he's going to use means to do it. And we're the means. And so, his obedience to scripture launched what is now called the modern missions movement. And we we missions looks today because a guy who was stuck in a stodgy Calvinist church said, "Hey, I think God wants to use us to reach the nations." And he did it went to India. >> I get that. But similar to how you called out Kyle when Kyle was saying, "What was that word?" >> No one remembers. It's impossible to know for sure. >> It begs a question. The illogical fallacy that it's the same thing to me. I feel like this is the same thing. It's like "Okay >> why do we do it?" Because it says we're supposed to, >> right? >> Okay. So, why didn't you do it? Well, it doesn't matter. So, so whether you're obedient or not doesn't mean you shouldn't do it, you know? Like that's what I don't understand. >> Well, I don't think they would even argue that they shouldn't, they're arguing that it doesn't matter. >> Well, and I get that. I I hear what he what what you were saying about the particular Baptist and like I'm Is there people out there like that like that? Absolutely. Um I'm not, you know, and so like to me it just doesn't make sense using that excuse cuz if like I told you there's no point in sharing the gospel, you know, like and you want to come back and be like, "Well, God calls us to do that. Why don't you do it?" like then we can have that discussion. But I don't I don't believe it. >> But the only way we we can go with confidence is knowing that God has an elect people. Because if the truth is up to me to communicate, we're screwed. >> But if if [clears throat] it's up to me to be obedient and for God to do the work, then I can just be used of him and be be free and confident. It's like like Paul in we studied this last time. For I have many in this city. >> That's right. >> Paul Paul knew Acts. >> Yeah. in Acts. Okay, there's this city Thessalonica that God has many people here that he wants to save. So, I have confidence in going here and boldly, you know, proclaiming the gospel because God wants to do work. >> So, Adam, I've got my calendar open. When should I schedule your cage stage to begin? I've got >> I will not let him get to that point. >> You're not going to Okay. Well, it's just >> I've made that mistake. I'm not letting my brothers get to it. >> Okay. Fair enough. Well, hey, in the remainder of our time here, I think it might be prudent for us to hit uh 27 through 31 because this u this would, you know, not only wrap up chapter 3, but it's going to really springboard the next group into four. And so, Jay, well, how about you use that uh silky authoritative voice? And uh 27 through31. >> All right. Where then is boasting? It is excluded by what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also. Since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one. Do we then nullify the law through faith? May it never be. On the contrary, we establish the law. >> ESV says, "By no means on the contrary, we uphold the law." Um, and I think that's we brought up antinomianism here. Like goodness gracious, like this last part here, especially 20 29 through31, Paul's not dismissing the Old Testament whatsoever. Paul would not be team unhitched. Like he is very much so saying that this is this is an important thing. And and again, when we look at even 27 and 28, the first word of 28 is is for this explains the previous verse. Okay, why why are we even talking about boasting? Why is that excluded? Well, for we hold that one is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. And so again, it's just driving the point home again and again and again. Line up your works and I will knock them down because they are in the they're not sufficient for what you're trying to make them sufficient for. >> I mean, we kind of look back at the Jews here and you know, when he talks about circumcision and boasting, like there was some boasting like, hey, I'm a part of God's people. I'm circumcised. And that's where he comes back down and says yes Gentiles also since God is one who will justify who will justify the circumcised by faith. So if the circumcised the Jews believe in Christ's sacrifice and um u righteousness through faith that they'll be redeemed even even though they're circumcised but then he'll also do it with the uncircumcised which is the Gentiles or the Greek and he does it through faith again. So faith is the big thing here not actions or works. I was thinking of when he uses that word boasting. There's that passage in Judges 7. So that's the story of Gideon. >> And you know, Gideon has Gideon's insecure, not sure what God's telling him to do, very nervous about this prospect of of of going into battle. And he keeps pairing down his army. Uh God does. And and and in that in that chap first part of that chapter verse 7 uh chapter 7:2 he basically says I'm doing this so that you will not say my own power has delivered me like I'm making your army so small >> uh and the victory is going to be so great that it can only be attributed to me. >> We have to think about where Gideon came from because he was thresh threshing wheat in a wine press. So he's trying to separate the wheat from the chaff underground fairly inefficient if you need to use the wind. Um and he had a couple of different things but the when the Lord called to him right whenever he was being communicated to called him a mighty warrior as he is literally at like a coward would threshing wheat in a wine press. And so then you fast forward to that moment like where does that boldness come from? I mean that that's what I when you look back why would the Jew of Jews why would Saul of Tarsus the incharge like you know big daddy terrorist of the time why would he switch teams but that doesn't make any sense when someone's like oh well he could see the writing on the wall that you know Christianity was going to be the the dominant religion of the Roman Empire or something like that's what are you talking about that doesn't make sense that's like two or 30 hund years later before that's even a thought process and we're we're still early in the first century and so I I think that that's important looking at getting in as well Well, but I just share that story because that my own power has delivered me. >> Like that's that that's what we've been talking about. >> Like is it God who saves us or is there something in us that makes us savable? >> So Gideon was a Calvinist is what you're saying. >> Yeah. Exactly what I'm saying. All right. He was team big God theology. >> Let's go back. Let's go back to boasting real quick. I'm fleshing this out on the on the fly. So, I don't know if this makes any sense, but as as I read this, it reminded me my whole life I've always had a problem. And I don't know if this is right or not, but I've always had a problem in churches where at the end, everybody bows their head and they try to get people to raise their hands and then and then they're going to count and they want to make an announcement of how many people have made a profession of faith and then they like to poster that all over the place. We've, you know, this many people, this many people. It's always felt weird to me. I don't I've never really been able to explain why. But on the fly here, I'm reading this verse and maybe that's why. Maybe that's then what becomes of our boasting. It is excluded. And it feels I don't know. It feels strange to me. It feels weird to put it up on the wall like that or to pronounce, hey, we've had seven people today come to the Lord, which is a great thing. It's good, but that always feels strange. Am I off base on that feeling weird? >> That's like corporal boasting. Whereas this is talking more about the individual. Correct. I think that's true. Yeah, I think what you said is true. But then at the same time, you know, when David got in a good deal of trouble for numbering the troops. >> Yep. >> Taking a census. >> Yeah. Taking a census, numbering the troops, man, that made him feel good. And that's that's what's behind that at a lot of churches. >> That's what I don't like about >> Look what we're doing. Don't we feel good about it? Don't we feel good about that? And and so if and and that's where like >> you got to be really even careful with how you do promotion in in a church. Like are we exalting ourselves or are we exalting Christ? So as we, you know, publicize or celebrate, you know, is are are we exalting this movement that we're a part of or are we are all arrows, all fingers pointing to the Lord Jesus? >> Let's go ahead and say one more thing. I'm going to I'm going to give props to Faith Bible Church for a second. I don't think I'm revealing anything I shouldn't. I'm going to go ahead and do it anyway. Even if I'm not, I'm sorry. >> Can't be edited. So let's go. >> I've already been disciplined many times. So, something I know about the church, which I I've I'd never heard of any other church doing, which I greatly respect, is is Mark and Jay, they don't know uh who gives what. They have no idea. Yeah. They don't they don't have no connection to that. There's no spreadsheet. There's no numbers. There's no nothing. And uh the the reason for that is so that they don't get influenced in any way by when someone comes up or wants something or need something or whether there's or heck you know it would be natural for them to possibly keep have that in their mind if they had that knowledge that if somebody was to come up and do something well it might influence a decision that they make. A lot of churches are not that way. No >> there are a lot of churches they know exactly who their givers are. They know how much they give and that's a problem. That's absolutely >> Well, that makes me feel weird now cuz at dinner I told Jay that if everyone in my family tree dies, uh, then all that money goes to Faith Bible Church. So, if y'all get a enormous check that comes from our life insurance companies, you're going to know, baby. I want the I want a wing named after us. I want I I want This is what I want. All right. I officially want it on paper. It is no longer ABF Adult Bible Fellowship. It is Sunday school. It is Kyle Thompson Sunday school classes in memoriam. Let's do it. >> Deal. Done. >> Bam. Let's go, baby. >> I've lost one. How many people Why did [laughter] everybody How many people boasting? >> How many people hate ABF? The term ABF are now going to come and kill Kyle. [laughter] >> Yikes. They have to wipe out a lot of people to get rid of that. >> You might be able to uh >> I can dust off some people. >> Let's [laughter] go. >> I've never I've never used the term ABF once in my life. But back to boasting. I was just going to give Faith Bible Church props because I think that's uh super cool that you guys do that. >> What's the wisdom behind that? Who who made that call? Was that >> um I don't remember. I mean, not a lot of churches abide by that. I mean, not not all, but a lot of it's just not being a respector of persons. We're all sinful. We all would have a tendency to, you know, sort of um you know, play in special treatment. Yeah. Give special be preferential with uh those who might be given, you know, big bucks or whatever. So it's >> it's just a protection and and it's a protection for that person as well. So those givers, I think it's really helpful and and I do have friends in the pastor who do know and they're purehearted men than I am, but their rationale is your generosity is a barometer for disciplehip. And so >> what >> so they are able to kind of and and and I don't agree with it. I don't I don't think it's the best move, but they would basically say uh what you know the the the the amount of money you give points to some spiritual maturity. Um, and yeah, so they want to just pay attention to that. >> I I I I I look at that and I think of the lady with the two pennies. >> Yep. >> So, just wanted to point that out. But, um, shots fired. Shots fired. Sorry, Pastor Jay. You could get on me next Sunday. >> No, no, no. I'm I'm in the camp of not knowing. I'm I'm >> Yeah, we're castigating the people that aren't here. >> I happily do not know. It's so great for me to be able to tell people, "Hey, I don't know what you give, by the way." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And he still likes me. No, I'm joking. [laughter] >> Do you ever have a discussion with somebody and you can sort of realize that they they think that you know and they think like you know like how important I am, right? Like you've had that discussion before. >> Mhm. >> Oh man. Do tell. [laughter] >> That would be that would be really difficult if I was in Jay's position and and I because you could probably feel it. How do you back out of that? >> You could feel it when it turns and you're like, "Oh boy." A few years ago, we had a big project and um and and there was a significant gift given and I only learned about this after the fact. Um the the individual who gave the significant gift ended up leaving the church and it when it all shook out, they basically expected to be sort of contacted and not pandered to. I don't think it was going to be icky or weird, but they just kind of expected some contact. And when they didn't get it, they were like, "Well, I guess we should just go somewhere else." >> So, >> yeah. No. So, that kind of gives some indication as to the heart behind the gift, >> I suppose. >> Mhm. And that's what it comes down to is the heart, you know, like I when you talked about somebody, >> you know, boasting on how many people were saved, you know, I think of like, man, I I enjoy watching Job's uh uh beach baptisms and seeing the number of people who are baptized, but I feel like it comes down to the heart. And the heart of the matter is we're rejoicing in these people making a a statement of faith, you know, and when I see that from Job's uh team at Church 11:22, it's all about the statement of faith of what God's doing. And so >> when I've asked Joby about that and since you brought it up, I' I've asked him because I brought up the same concerns as you. When I see people in their annual report, 1,214 people professed Christ, I'm like, is that the number? That's the number. There's no one in there just that just got whipped up by the TED talk and the the rock concert that No. Okay. But then when I asked Joby about that, he goes, "We are going to count anyone that makes a move towards Christ because we can't judge their salvation anyway." And what it does is, and again, I was in the water this this last beach baptism in May. Um, and I was part of I was personally part of baptizing 3 400 people right on the beach. There were I don't know 10,000 20,000 people on the beach that day and a couple thousand got baptized in a few hours. And and I've said this before, but I think it bears repeating because of the new audience we get. Um there was one stretch cuz I was like the guy Joby had hurt his shoulder like a day or two before. And so I was the guy that was going to be going to and from helping old ladies and little kids and making sure that no one got carried away or whatever. And [clears throat] there were like five or six women in a row. And I can't I can't describe it and I tend to not be hyperbolic in my language about what I experienced in a I guess spiritual context, but it felt so different than the other baptisms. It it felt like there was electricity in the water and I couldn't explain it. And I'm just like, you know, helping him baptize, help him baptize. But as I'm walking to go go get the next person, Joby kind of pulls me in and he goes, "Hey, those last like six women that we baptized, all six of them were saved out of sex trafficking this year and they all gave their lives to Christ." >> Amazing. >> So, I'm not going to put myself in the position of, well, allow me to put on my John MacArthur suit and uh decide to judge fruit and different things like that. So, if they want to put those six gals in that annual report and they want to count them and check mark, it's like, well, hey, I don't know what that was, but there is a there is something that resembles a gospel transformation and they've just made the decision. We're going to count it. And guess what? There's nobody looking at a ticker saying, I'm going to give that big gift when that ticker gets to whatever, or I'm going to base my membership or continued support of this ministry once that number gets to whatever. And if it dips below that on the next year's whatever, then I'm not going to do it. It's just a matter so that they can as a congregation that is growing rejoice together and say that there are a couple of thousand new people. And when I was there for saturated when we got to Sunday and we got to the the baptisms that happened there were almost a thousand people baptized on one Sunday morning there were still people being baptized from the first service while the people for the second service are coming in. Right? We hung out for about 30 minutes after service and they were still baptizing people and I couldn't see the end of the baptism line. Now, we had to go cuz I had to go kill a dinosaur with my bare hands. Shout out to Mike Dragage. But like, we're sitting there for 30 minutes and there are people that didn't sign up for baptism that were being drawn into the line. That's why they had a stack of shirts at the front of the line because they knew that there were the spirit was going to move in a particular way and people were going to make an indication that they were giving their life to Christ. And they are asked two questions like do you renounce any connection with the dark or demonic or anything from your former life? Yes. Okay. Who is Jesus Christ to you? My Lord and Savior. Boom. Dunk. Okay. Count them. And so, but there are a lot of other places where the only thing they count is they raised the hand and we tried to find them on the way out to get them a welcome packet. So, let's count them. So, I I do think it is it is a little bit different as well. But >> CBS, one of the news shows, CBS Morning News did a did a deal. Oceans Church. I think it was in Costa Mesa somewhere. Um, Orange County, West Coast. I don't know nothing about them theologically, but the report centered on their church specifically, but was talking about just baptisms on the rise. Um, and so your testimony attributes to that. They had numbers from uh this movement on the other side of the country, but and it's Gen Z. It's something's happening. >> Yeah. >> And and there's a revival. >> Yeah. and and and baptism seems to be a big part of it. So, yay. That's that's that's big. That's public profession. There's something being declared there. Um it's not just in the quietness of your heart. So, pretty cool. >> That and Bible cells are off the chart from what what I've heard and seen. I think I think you could probably attribute some of it to the national response to Charlie Kirk in his in the way he was. And so, >> yeah. Go ahead. >> Oh, go. I just want to boast in what Christ is doing, you know, like >> what God is doing. Yeah. I mean, he he's moving. >> Well, and I was on a call. I was on a call today and uh we'll wrap with this because fan of the office. Do you like the office? >> Oh, love the office. Sure. Makes me comfortable. You see my office? It's got the office everywhere. >> Yeah. So, u I was on a call today and someone asked a question of that like, "Are we experiencing a revival?" And uh Andrew Bernard, I think this was on one of the last episodes, he said, I wish you knew you were living in the good old days while you were experiencing them. And I said, I think it's very difficult to say definitively that you were in a revival while it's happening, but you can look back on that time period and be like, yeah, that time was clearly a revival. Whatever boxes need to be checked to basically definitively say, yes, that was a revival. And so, all I can say is that I'm hopeful. Uh, I can see some upcoming issues because Gen Z boys or I guess a generation of boys have never been this conservative while at the same time the generation of girls has never been more liberal, more dependent on not finding a man, not starting a family. Like starting a family, having kids, all that is like 12th out of 12 in terms of their their focuses as an age cohort. So, it's certainly we we're got some lumps, but that is for the church uh to to step up and step in and that that's part of the ministry there in. But guys, it's been an absolute pleasure the last month uh to be able to rock with you guys through Romans 3. So guys, we have wrapped Romans 3. So, next week, come back here ready to start Romans chapter 4. But before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost. At Antal Life, our mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. We are a donation based ministry. So if you want to help support content like this getting out to guys around the globe undaunted.life/donate a couple more things logos Bible software best Bible software on the planet use it but use it at a discount. Check that out in the show notes and also crossway forging table starter set. It is five amazing books. Get them at a tremendous discount. We appreciate all you guys listening. Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever you're listening to this please subscribe, rate and leave us a positive fivestar review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast just shoot me an email to info@unson.life. That's I info@undton.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www.undauntton.life. And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is their song Perpetual, which is off their self-titled debut album on Faceown Records. The links are in the description. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the Lion of Judah. [music]