[music] This is Undaunted [music] Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. Welcome back to the forging table. The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. At the forging table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience by digging into God's word. And we're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with us. That's Adam. That's Ryan. That's Jay. And I got to say, I'm a little bit nervous whenever I talk out of my face hole because you just smashed me at the end of last week's episode because apparently I don't know how words work. And here I am. I get on to people all the time about not knowing how words work. Why did you do that to me? My confidence is just absolutely at an all-time low at this table. It's I didn't want you to continue making the error. >> You know, that's good. Yeah, that's good. I'm just fine. Let's just humble. Let's just Let's just go ahead and pile on. Yeah. Pile on it. >> Hey, Kyle, can you say the word something for me? >> Something. >> Oh, you don't say it like that. >> Something something wrong. >> Something wrong. Something >> you don't pronounce. Go ahead. Everybody whittle out your notes on your phone with your list of the things that Kyle does and says that are stupid. Go ahead. >> We'll just We'll just stop you on the next one. And the next time we hear, we're just going to be like, >> "Hey, Ryan's got a new scent." Uh, you know that he was telling us about in the text. Oh, you didn't. You lied. You lied. You better admit that you lied in front of the elder. >> It was a joke and nobody like said anything back, so I totally forgot I said. >> We were We were waiting to use it here right now. >> I didn't think it was a joke. >> Everyone thought it was real. >> Yeah. I don't Yeah, I don't have sex. So, you lied to us. Sex. >> It's got bits of panther in it. >> Yeah. It's not sex panther. It's smelling salt. It's It's goose. It's It's sex goose. [laughter] It's got bits of goose in it. >> That's even better. [laughter] >> Inside joke. Inside joke. >> Oh, no. No. >> If anybody needs >> No. Get it off the table. >> Why? All right. It's just Hey, >> peek behind the curtain. We just did our dinner downstairs. Uh, are you going to throw up again? >> Mhm. >> For those of you at home, >> dude. We just ate dinner. >> Ryan Horn has a very sensitive stomach. So, if you start talking about anything after dinner, like diarrhea, poop, any of those types. >> Oh, no. [laughter] >> I hate you, Kyle. >> Oh, that was close. I thought it was coming. >> Oh, man. Dude, I'm going to put a barf all over this forging table. >> You can't You can't do it. This is sacred ground here. Stop bringing this stuff out after I eat. >> It's got a good lather on it. I think it could take it. It's not my fault. >> Oh, man. Does anybody want some? >> No, I don't either, but I'm going to do it. >> The most sophisticated formula. Why? Because it says so on the thing. Uh, we're hitting the Golly. All right. I just can't do it. It's all over my hands. Shoot. All right. Here we go. [cough and clears throat] I got to shake it up. Here we go. [laughter] Are you praying for Ryan? He's laying hands. I want it this time. Oh god. [cough] There it was. >> So, does anybody Is there a a documented health benefit to doing this? >> Probably. Right. Jay, hop in on this. >> Nope. >> All right. Adam's hitting it. Here we go. And these are not drugs, ladies and gentlemen. I feel the need to say that every time Jay is here. Get a little closer. Oh, that one's nearly close enough. Get a second one. Get a second one. Get a second one. Come on. Work on me. Do I look like I want one? >> No, I'm good. >> No, but I'm at the office. >> I That's true. Hey, are you sure? >> Come on. >> It'll always be here for you, Ryan. >> Just don't I'm good. >> Just don't put it right your nose in it. And just remember you don't have any nose hair. >> I don't have any nose hair. It's going to burn. >> Okay. [laughter] Oh man, there's a camera right there. You're going to project all vomit right into the lens. >> Yeah, don't do that. Don't do that. Okay, now we're probably out of focus. No, we're good. We're all good here, >> man. Dude, put it away. Okay. Well, you know, it's it's sealed. It's in the back. >> I don't trust it. >> If I toss it over there in a bus, it's going to be bad for everybody. Okay, so those are those are the options. Toss it over there and risk it. Okay. All right. That's a good advertisement for it over there. That's how potent they are. Ryan can't even like look at Ah. All right. Well, hey guys. We left off uh we went through verse 20 of chapter 3 of Romans and then we've got a super hard left turn feels like. Uh but I just got to say for this first section, I mean, I really don't know how far we're going to get with this just because it is a substantial um I mean the first note that I made for 21 through 26 is a fullthroated description of the gospel. And then I'll pull this off the table, right? But like it it's such a fullthroated gospel presentation that you know if someone asks like, "Hey, where is the gospel in [clears throat] the Bible?" And it's just kind of like I I think you could point them to this paragraph. Again, we put it in paragraph form later, but man, it's just so heavy the these first group groups of verses here. So >> Leon Morris said, "This is the single most important paragraph ever written." >> Oh wow. >> So that's pretty [snorts] substantial claim >> considering what we just went through. I'm so grateful that it starts with the word butt. It's like, oh man, that's the that's the word I needed. I'm I'm hanging on this. Like, I'm feeling bad. I'm feeling depraved. This is not good. >> Thank goodness there's a butt. >> Got a big butt right there at the start. Verse 21. >> We're just going to leave that one alone. Thank you. >> Cuz you were the pastor. You >> We're not bringing up any bears. >> That's entrapment. I put it on a tea for you. I put it on a T for you. >> Why? Why? What did we say? Oh, well, we can't say that on air now. Yeah, there was something that was put on a tea a couple of weeks ago and none of us took a swing. I think everyone's a little nervous right now. >> Okay. >> Do you like that effect that you have on people? >> No. >> Cuz I walk into rooms and people get a little nervous. Maybe even people that I live with and I try I'm trying not to do that. I don't want to be I want to be a calming force when I walk in the room, right, with the with the right people. But like you just you just have an inability to do that. I don't know what it is. >> Actually, I feel really calm. >> Stop sucking up. Oh, yeah. Why? Cuz you're team bald over there. Team bald versus team beard over here. Whatever. used to walk in >> I'm used to walking in on a group of staff talking and then I walk in and the conversation shuts down. >> Oh, that's scary. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I I find it easier to talk to you than talk to Mark. >> Tracks. >> Careful. Careful. A lot of people listen to this. >> I know. But I It's not like I I'm just like I don't know. I'm like, man, >> you get more nervous around Mark. >> Nervous around Mark. >> I feel like he's like looking into my soul and he knows. >> It's that old Pentecostal roots that you have. You look at the pastor as like God's anointed or whatever. And so >> yeah, I mean uh I'm not that bad anymore, but I do respect the guy a lot that it's like >> so he doesn't respect you is what he said. >> But it's more of like it's just like dude it took me 5 years to go and talk to the guy. >> He's down in front every service and I was like it took me two weeks just leading up to the first time because I was down there waiting and like [clears throat] >> you God love them. The old people come they have no idea what a line is. They have no [clears throat] idea that people >> they don't know how to smile at the camera during pictures. >> And then and then and then like they he gets done talking to somebody and they look at me and they're like, "Duce is a little dude. I'm going to go talk cuz I'm older." >> Well, they don't have as much time as you do. >> That's how I looked at it. And you know what I learned? I learned patience and forbearance. [laughter] >> Here it comes again. >> There we go. Dude, you're just pulling out all the stops on on this batch of recordings. I think it was because we got off to such a good start with the sugar rush a couple of weeks ago and we still got a few more left in boxes back there if anybody's tempted. >> Nope. Nope. >> All right. [laughter] You have to eat a Christmas tree cake or hit the smelling salts. How about that? How about [gasps] No, I'm kidding. You don't have to do it. You don't have to do it. Uh, so I think, >> you know, it's kind of hard again, you know, how we're going to scrape through the scripture, but I think that we should read 21- 26 as a, you know, as one kind of unit here. So, Jay, if you wouldn't mind uh reading that from the NASBY. >> The NASBY. Here we go. But now, apart from the law, the righteousness of God has been manifest manifested, excuse me, being witnessed by the law and the prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe. For there is no distinction for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by his grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in his blood through faith. This was to demonstrate his righteousness because in the forbearance of God he passed over the sins previously committed for the demonstration I say of his righteousness at the present time so that he would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. So, you know, verses 1- 20 of chapter 3, which we spent the last couple of weeks on, you know, everyone's under sin, >> and then the theme just moves to the grace and faith of Christ. And really, it goes back way further, uh, you know, 118 through 3:20. What do we all deserve? Do we deserve death, wrath? Uh, and that's what everyone deserves. But I mean, as Adam, as you pointed out, and you can kind of flow off that if you want to, but I mean, that that is even if you were reading the letter without chapter breaks, without paragraph indentations, that would stick out, you know, as a hey, we got a major course change happening here. >> And I like how in this paragraph, there's no more questions. There's no more, you know, from the perspective of of what a Jew might be questioning. This is just Paul dropping knowledge and being very specific about what he's trying to say. the questions are over, right? Because as we were looking through three through uh verse one through nine, it's constantly the well what about this? Well, what then? Are Jews better off? There's none of that in this paragraph. Well, I think as well we see, okay, so it's not just but, it's but now, which is emphatic, and I don't really know, Jay, if you can kind of talk about the language there because I'm not certainly nearly as verse on the language there, but the emphatic nature of the but now there makes it makes it even more apparent that this is a huge shift. >> Yeah, conjunction. I mean, that's that's he's he does bring up another what then there in verse 27. That's kind of the last big question of the chapter. uh but you that conjunction signifies that okay there's a different message about to be delivered >> and I think as well you know the so the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law um been manifested this is basically God disclosing knowledge right so this is revelation that's taking place and so >> made clear is one way to think about manifestation it's been made clear >> give us some more on that >> uh well it's through the sending of Jesus Christ so the righteousness of God has been made clear through the special re revelation that is his son, the Lord Jesus, second member of the trinity, coming to earth, incarnating himself, living amongst us, dying on the cross for our sins, showing us what righteousness actually is. >> And and go ahead. >> And do you think at the the end of verse 21 where you know he says this, but now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it. So he's still he's still giving credence to it. He's still he's not saying that those aren't important because again the Jews are hanging on every single word that he has to say here. So he's still saying the law and the prophets are still are still important. >> Well, and those are the things that are pointing those are pointing to Jesus. >> That's they were they were pointing the Old Testament believer forward to uh a redeemer that would come. So they're the faith that was credited to as righteousness to the Old Testament believer was also in Christ, but it was them looking forward. uh we look back they looked forward. >> So do you feel like in the sentence because in this far first part where he says it's been manifested apart from the law that if if I was interpreting that from a Jews perspective I would kind of be back to where I was earlier in chapter 3 where I'm I'm not really loving that. But then he sort of reassures them that although the law and the prophet still bear witness to it. So it kind of brings them back in do you think? >> Yeah. apart from performing um the law or performing righteous deeds to fulfill the law ourselves to whatever extent we could actually accomplish that >> um it's been made manifest made clear which is also the testimony of that [clears throat] >> of that righteousness found in Jesus Christ was witnessed to by the law and prophets they point forward to it >> and you brought back look forward we look back they look forward um I think kind of bringing up the the um the fact that he brings it back to the Old Testament is to also show that this wasn't just some new thing that Christ came and talked about. Like it's been um it's not some new thing that the apostles are bringing up when it comes to faith by justification that it goes all the way back to the Old Testament. And you kind of see that in chapter 4 as well, but he's he's coming back to saying even the even the prophets in the Old Testament actually show that faith by justification is what God and Christ intended. >> Well, if we go to the words of Jesus in Matthew 5:17, do not think that I have come to abolish the law of the prophets. I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. Yeah. >> And so this is I mean it it's right there. There is no contradiction in terms here. And Paul is not you putting putting the law in a different area to be dismissive of it. He's basically you know pointing to the reality of what Jesus was claiming while he was here doing his public ministry as well. >> Well and for a group of people that was so law obsessed for the fulfillment of the law and prophets to show up in their midst. a man and for them to reject him just shows you really what their religion was about. It wasn't about it wasn't about God. It was about their performance. It was about their own righteousness. Um to which they fell short in in the same way that the Gentiles would. And in in some of the research I was doing, especially when it gets to verse 22 where it says the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe, I was thinking of what other religion, you know, espouses that or or also if you take that to the point to where my works mean nothing to me, you know, that's unique to Christianity, right? >> There's no other religion. you know, there's no other religion that makes that connection that there's nothing I can do that nothing that I can bring to the table to save myself. >> I think it's a a funny uh thing to look at is if you look at other religions that you have to you have to do these certain things to make this being happy. But when it comes to God, God actually comes down in his own provocation as his son and does the deed for us. You know, like that shows true love. He's he's not looking for our works. He's just looking for us to love and have faith in him. >> And that's and that's where I struggle with my friends who are Catholic or if I if I struggle when I read and see what some of the things that that they do that they believe in, it just it doesn't rationalize in my head why that makes sense. >> Well, I think as well it's so I've heard it put this way. So there are guys that are very So I'm thinking of John MacArthur, Jeff Durban, like if you are Catholic, you are apostate. So you are you are not Christian. you have to repent of your Catholicism in order to become a believer. Which Council of Trent, they anathemaized the gospel. That's problematic. But it's not like Mormonism where it's like, "No, it's cuz I believe that there are certainly Catholics that are depending on the propitiation. They put their faith in the propitiation of their sin debt. They just got some weird theological ideas on some other things just like Baptists do, Methodists do, people that go to Bible church, like whatever those types of things." And the the issue that I find is when people become so comfortable in the the actions of Catholicism and there is no faith component because then when you get to something like there are Orthodox Jews and then there are people that are ethnic Jews that don't keep kosher like they don't they don't keep any of the laws like they they don't you know uh observe the the Sabbath or any of those types of things. We don't really have that standard within Christianom. Now, people can opt into an identity of identifying as a Christian because they're like, "I believe in God and I'm a Westerner, so I guess I'm a Christian." But that's not quite what we're getting at. >> I kind of I think Joby talked about this on an Ask a Pastor and I kind of agree with him on it. Like, if you're the Catholic that you're talking about, you're you're not a very good Catholic, >> right? You have to be a bad Catholic. >> You have to be a really bad Catholic to be a Christ follower. And so, do I think that there's some Catholics out there that believe in the propitiation of the of of Christ's sacrifice uh for us? Um I I do, but I also think that maybe they just love the um >> tradition >> tradition of Catholicism. Um and they cuz like I I went Presbyterian for like same thing with Orthodox as well. >> Yeah. And like I really enjoyed the liturgy. I really enjoyed some of the traditions that they had [clears throat] um compared to like a Baptist type of believer. And so I don't know like you we can't judge the heart. I can't judge people's salvation. That's not my job. My job is to love them and preach the gospel, you know, and hopefully their eyes are open to it. But I I I have to agree with Joby on that that you know, if you're if you you say you're a Catholic, but you're the Catholic that you're talking about, you're not a very good Catholic. So >> that's a good way to put it. That's a good way to put it because I can't reconcile it in my mind any other way. Would that make sense? >> Yeah. In verse 22 levels the playing field as well because again it's it's alien righteousness that makes us right with God. It's not our own righteousness. It's the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ and there is no distinction for Jew or Gentile. So it's it's it's it's not that we believe Jesus and then our righteousness justifies us. No, it's God's righteousness imputed to us. So it's not our own righteousness, our good deeds, our efforts, our religious system, our list of doctrines that we adhere to stringently or otherwise. It is his righteousness that is imputed uh to us. >> The alien righteousness being a righteousness from outside of ourselves. Yes. Right. >> And it's not like I think Sproul said it that it's not like a divine pardon [clears throat] either, >> right? You know, it's not like, hey, you guys are you guys are sinners, so I'm pardoning I'm pardoning you of this sin and nothing else needs to happen. That's where kind of like uh the propitiation part comes in. Like someone's got to pay the debt, you know, someone's got to pay the sin debt. They did it with with animal sacrifices and now this is where Christ comes in. This is where the big word propitiation that uh some people don't like um because they would you would kind of uh summize this to work with penal substitutionary atonement which is a kind of a buzz word with some some people um but it carries a basic idea of appeasement or satisfaction satisfaction specifically towards God. Propitiation is a two-part act that involves appeasing the wrath of an offended person and being reconciled to them. And so basically through Christ's sacrifice, the only righteousness we have is through him so we can be reconciled with God. It's not a pardon for what we've done in our past. >> Yeah. You mentioned [clears throat] Sproul and and his reference to pardon. I I saw that also and I think he said, you know, a pardon is not enough because that that doesn't work. Like you have to be made as if you were new, like completely new. Yeah, you have to be completely new, but you also have to how how are you made completely new if if nothing's been justified for your >> actions? Just that's the word I was looking for. Like it's it's different. You know, a pardon is like I've okay, I've pardoned you. Go on and do your own thing. That's not that's not enough. That doesn't get us where we need to be. >> No, it's kind of like you can get a pardon, but there still has to be a >> So, what is it how people have described it to where there is a debt that needs to be paid and someone is forgiving the debt, but what they are doing is they are taking on the debt themselves. They're taking on the loss themselves. They're just absolving you of of the debt that is over. >> And that's what the propitiation is, if I'm correct on that. >> Yeah. Wrath averting sacrifice. >> Yeah. >> But go ahead. No, but I'm just saying like, you know, I I it's a really tough thing to talk about, but penal substitutionary atonement, it's like really kind of a big thing, which refers to the doctrine that Christ died on the cross as a substitute for sinners. God imputed the guilt of our sins to Christ and he and and he in our place bore the punishment that we deserve. This was a full payment for sins which satisfied both wrath and righteousness of God so that he could forgive sinners without compromising his own holy standard. And so I I grew up in a church I I wouldn't say grew up in the church. I went to a church before I started uh going to Faith Bible Church. And [clears throat] the pastor was really good. um he really liked uh this guy named Brian Xan and uh he's a pastor out of like Missouri Word of Faith and uh I was listening to him talk about this and how it was he used the term cosmic child abuse you know and uh and I'm like you know you go back and you can look at relevant scripture through Isaiah and Romans and Corinthians and Galatians and Hebrews and it all comes back to this substitutionary atonement and um excuse me still get those smelling salts and I'm bite >> but Um, but uh it's like I don't I don't see it as that cosmic child abuse, you know, like I don't understand I didn't understand that term and that made me want to go and research it more and understand like what's this guy talking about? It sounds more of like a governmental human thing that humans are are the reason why Christ died rather than God in his own infinite power sent himself through his son to to to take on the redemptive purpose for us. And so it's like I feel like we're taking away from God then when we go back to this uh moving away from the substitutionary atonement. I didn't know what your guys' thoughts were on that. >> I do think just to reframe it, restate it a little a little [clears throat] bit differently. >> Yeah, >> it's alluded to toward the end about toward the end of verse 26 for God to be both just and justifier. And we can say and it's a very orthodox thing to say that Jesus died on the cross for you. That's a very orthodox thing to say. Um, but Christ also died for God. >> Um, not that he needed not that he needed atoning for sins because God's perfect and holy and righteous and he has no sin, but for him to be just and justifier, >> he needed a perfect wrath averting sacrifice to be both of those things for us and to us. So, yes, Christ died for us, but he also died for God so that he could be he could remain who he is in saving who we are. Well, let's let's go ahead and go to 26 and then I want to back up to the [clears throat] uh to verse 20 the end of verse 22 and end of verse 23. So 26 it was to show his righteousness at the present time so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. That can be a little bit confusing, but you know, from what I was looking at, okay, the justice part of that is Jesus dying on the cross. Cross cross. It's Jesus's death. And God could be just to the one who has put their faith in the propitiation that was provided on the cross by the death of Jesus. Okay, so I think I got that straight. And then you got the justifier side, which is who sent Jesus in the first place, right? Who sent part of the Godhead down to to provide that sacrifice? So in that way he can be just and justifier. Does any of that that need to be cleaned up? >> No, I think you nailed it. >> Yeah, >> I feel like that's a word for word almost supporting what you just said. >> Yes, I do think it's it's amazing how the doctrines in this short little passage just kind of fall all over themselves because you've got >> obviously the the huge point about righteousness, but then you've got this idea of justification, redemption, propitiation. Um I mean those are big gospel words cross words you know tio n words if you look at their um their their suffixes packed with meaning and and you know legal justified that's a justification that's a legal term and then redemption you got a commercial term that's straight out of the slave trade and then propitiation that's a religious term that's about sacrifice and the system that uh aligns with with uh Judaism and the mercy seat and and the shed blood that's that's placed there. Uh that wasn't that in the Old Testament was used to pacify God's wrath. Um but through Christ, it satisfied God's wrath. Um and that's where I think penal substitution really starts to get some teeth is that is that God's wrath was satisfied uh in Jesus Christ. For centuries, it had been pacified through the sacrificial system. Y >> um but it needed more than pacification. It needs satisfaction. And so he sent his own son to bring that satisfaction. and the the if you want to if you want to gut um the message of the gospel then take out penal substitution. I mean [clears throat] you you got all these atonement theories whatever they are victor Chrisus exemplar whatever but penal substitution is really at the heart of it >> which makes people very uncomfortable. >> Yeah. Um, well, again, I think it gets back to it seems really not nice. >> And I think that's like when you when you talk about that, like I think it's more of a >> it's really hard to put my finger on it because I've watched debates between people about penal substitutionary atonement and usually the people representing the no, that's not what that says side of things, they definitely ping a little bit more feminine in their affect. they they ping where it's like this just seems icky and so the text just can't mean that right so it's more like that as opposed to okay let me not put myself above the text let me hold the text above me and try to figure out okay what is it saying what is it trying to convey because I they just get like ruffled by the message and it becomes problematic for them >> well they feel like they need to defend God >> right >> and that's never a great >> not a great position >> not a great position uh you don't need to apologize for him he can ap Well, he can he can speak for himself. >> You said you said it feels icky. In what way do you feel like they they say it's icky? Cuz [clears throat] icky is probably not right. They they think they think it feels mean. Like it's just like this is this is too rough. This is too mean. These are people that will never go anywhere near Revelation just because Jesus seems really mean. You he comes back with his, you know, eyes like fire, hair and beard are white, you know, tattoo on his leg. Uh, you know, covered in blood. Is that the blood from the cross? Is that the blood of his enemies? Sword in his mouth. It's just like, yeah, he seems kind of mean. Lion of Judah is kind of hard to wrap my mind around. I like, you know, soft-haired, soft feature Danish Jesus. And so, I think it is a little bit more on that vein. >> And how does that connect connect the dots between that and penal substitutionary atonement? Because I will I will admit that that that's a new term for me. I'm not very familiar with that. My my understanding of it was p penal meaning penalty and substitutionary atone atonement meaning that my my my penalty is going to Christ and Christ is substituting and going in my place and atoning me for for my sins and my penalty. Right. >> Yeah. And what they don't like about it is the fact that he has to take on your atonement and be your substitute for God's wrath. So they don't like the fact of God's wrath. And like the the thing that kind of pushed me away from like um Xan and and Chalk is I've seen these guys compromise to culture so many times. And so I feel like the guys that push it push back against penal substitutionary atonement uh will compromise on other things that the Bible would call biblical. So, it's it's kind of like hard to take their message and like try to respect it because I just don't respect them as theologians or >> I'm just struggling with it because it just feels so it feels so un like what the scripture is telling us. It seems so simple to me. So, I'm trying to understand. >> Let's go back to election. >> He's trying to steal man their side. >> I know he's trying to steal man. I know you're trying to steal man their side. But like I can like let's go back to our election conversation. Like you didn't like election. Some people that in class when we would talk about election didn't like it because well you don't get a chance to choose. God's already chosen like you don't like that feeling of it. >> Yeah. >> You know so they don't like that feeling that go you're talking about a wrathful God who has to go and what they call cosmic child abuse is basically put his son on a cross to die for his wrath you know. And so they don't they don't they they can't correlate that just like when it came to election. and you're like, I can't wrap my head around why I can't choose. Why would God already choose? Does that make sense? >> It does. >> When I think it's connect >> of all the parts that are maybe the most icky or most offensive is the substitutionary part because what was being substituted, >> the [clears throat] suffering. So the suffering went from us to him, right? So that we would not have to eternally suffer by being separated from the presence of God. >> That doesn't feel very good. And I think inherent in that, maybe I'm stretching stretching it out just a little bit, maybe the issue is as well that they still think they have some righteousness to bring to the table. So they're like, "Why would I need someone to be my substitute? I'm not that bad." I mean, it's a complete, >> it's [clears throat] not even a misread, it's an unread of the entirety of the the letter to the Roman church up to this point. But [clears throat] again, it's it's kind of the pick and choose thing. like I'm I'm just going to kind of ignore kind of the darker meaner passages that make me not feel so good. >> I feel I feel exactly what you just said. Pick and choose is where I was going at at it with in my head. It's like yeah, you could get there if you if you pick certain scriptures from here and there, but if you go like we have from beginning to end all the way through. It's just a hard way to get to it's difficult for me to get to that conclusion. >> If you unhitch from the Old Testament, you can make that claim. >> It's easy atonement. Just a good point. Well, and to soften the nature of the atonement to [clears throat] to soften the reality of the the wrath averting sacrifice that was Jesus Christ, you're ultimately softening the the the level of depravity and the sin that that plagues us. You're you're softening that list of uh characterizations there in the previous passage, you know, verses 9 through 18 or whatever there. You're saying, "Ah, we're not we're not so bad that we needed Jesus to bear our punishment and for God to pour out his wrath upon it. we're we're not that bad. Um but in fact we are. Um I think the Bible's made that clear. >> And that's like kind of what what's changed me. Like that's where my change came in. It was like cuz somebody asked me, "Do you know do you know the gospel?" Like yeah, Jesus died on the cross for my sins. And he's like, "Why?" And I couldn't say because I'm a sinner who needed it. I'm like, "I've done some good things, you know, but I didn't understand my depravity." And then when you read something like Romans and you read what Paul's saying, it's like, you know, like the first two chapters we read up to three, it's like all about depravity, you know, and how we're depraved and how our human nature is depraved and how sin brought into the world through Adam. It's, you know, not you, but you know, the other Adam, it's made us depraved, you know. So, um I once you figure out that you're a depraved sinner, the beauty of the cross is just like something to be in awe of. Do do you think that's why so maybe people in general if if they feel that depravity, they always feel like they're not worthy for higher positions or like who am I? Why, you know, like Moses even in the Old Testament, who am I to go lead these people? It seems like that theme is through the Bible over and over and over again. I don't feel like I'm worthy to do this. Why? Why? Why me? I don't know if it's humbleness or just being scared. >> I do think there's a worm theology that we need to be weary of like uh wary of not weary of wary of because >> yeah, we are we're totally depraved. Um we're totally sinful. We needed this measure of sacrifice. Uh we needed an alien righteousness as a gift, not something that we would deserve on our own in any way. Um but we're still people made in God's image. >> Yeah. Um, and he loves us and he he wants to use us and that's he and he's ordained the ends. He's going to then ordain the means. He's going to use human means to accomplish his purposes. So, you do need to be wary of those who just kind of sit in their own mess and say, you know, I'm nothing. I'm nothing. I'm a worm. You know, who am I? I mean there's there is a a humility I think that is that comes with understanding doctrines of grace or just grace in general, understanding the gospel. Um but you don't want to live in the mud. U because I think the reality is you are worth to God what he paid for you >> and what did he pay for you son >> the ransom price of his son. And so with that as as your understanding then I think you can get out of that place. When you say that, it makes me think of Martin Luther and how Luther would like, you know, he's in the Catholic religion. He's like trying to understand sin and everything and he looks at what God calls sin. He looks at the law and he's like, I can never live up. Like it burdened him. It burdened him so much. And then he comes and he reads Galatians and he even talks about reading uh chapter 3 or I don't know if it was chapter 3 back then but he comes to Romans as well and is just lifted up because he's like I even though I do these things and I and I'm scared you know God has already taken up taken up for this. Like I think I wrote down here it said Luther said that that this is what the church should stand on. if they don't set this right, if they don't set this right, they are not authentic. And so he wanted like he knew that we needed to talk about faith by justification because that's the only way if you read the Old Testament and you read even the biatitudes of Christ, the only way we're going to be righteous is through him. >> One I think as well the breakthrough verses uh that Luther said were the breakthrough verses for him in terms of grace through faith was Romans 1:16-1 17. For I am not ashamed of the gospel. For it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it [clears throat] the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith as it is written, the righteous or the just shall live by faith. And those were the breakthrough verses for him that kind of shook him out of his Catholic malaise to a degree as well. >> Yeah. Did you guys ever read about and this has been probably 10 12 years ago the uh in Christ Alone controversy. So, you know the song Christ alone by the Gettys? There you go. Oh, come on. >> Keep going. [laughter] >> All right, that's enough. All right, >> so uh the Presbyterian Church USA. So, not the PSA, the PCA, but the PCUSA, the more liberal of the two major Presbyterian denominations. They wanted that song in their himnil that was being printed and updated, I think, in 2013. But they asked the Gettys, "Will you can we change the line," the wrath of God was satisfied to something of our own choosing. They want they wanted to change it to the love of God was magnified. So they wanted to distance themselves in their hymnbook from penal substitutionary atonement and they wanted to change the lyrics of in Christ alone and the Gettys wouldn't let them and good on them. So they left it out of their >> himnel. So that that that just shows that there's a like contemporary discussion on this that actually, you know, matters, flushes itself out. >> Well, I wonder did you have something you want to hit on? I I was remembering on on Martin Luther and I know specifically there is uh I was I was remembering about a the it's called the tower experience because I think you were asking about >> uh Romans 3 and he he mentioned Romans chapter 1 but he he specifically talks multiple times about him >> sitting there and and contemplating Romans 3:21 in in the tower. You might you guys might know that better better than I do, but that that was like one of his pivotal moments for changing his view on righteousness and where it comes from. And I I know what you're talking about. I didn't write it down, but yeah, like that's where I that's where I was saying because I was like when he read 3:21, he was like he was like I think he was just set at ease. >> You know, >> because righteousness was a gift. >> Yes. He couldn't earn it. >> Yeah. >> And he couldn't do anything and it was a gift that he could receive and he was receiving it through the Holy Spirit. >> I think in that experience he was just wallowing in his sin and he was wallowing in that nature just like what you talked about that the [clears throat] danger of the worm doctrine. I think I think that's where he was. >> Yeah. I think he was too >> and he was and he was at that point and he gets to this verse and that's where like the light got turned on. >> Well, you you say like when you talked about Moses and like you you you know I'm going back to Jeremiah because we've been doing the prophets with my kids, you know, even Jeremiah was like I'm 17 years old. I can't do this God, you know, like I don't know if he's like a you know, feeling like a worm, but like nobody I I don't know. Even if God came to me and was like, I need you to do this. Like I still wouldn't feel good enough to do it. But I would have to use his power to do it. Like I have to trust in him. I have to rest in him. And that's what Moses learned. That's what Jeremiah's learned. That's what Martin Luther's learned. And that's something like that we need to learn, you know, and it's something that we're going to struggle with. I struggle with resting in Christ and in God and what his plan is and what he does. But I got to remember that he's there and he's greater than I. >> Just it seems interesting to me that that seems to be such a consistent theme with, you know, modern day or or not modern day, everyone feeling not sufficient, like I am not good enough to do this. >> Well, I wonder if I I don't know. I wonder if it's a derivative of how people read verse 23 through a modern lens. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. That's a fairly casually mentioned memorized scripture that people will just kind of bring up colloquially like, "Oh yeah, everyone kind of knows what this means." But I I I I don't know. I'm just kind of verbally processing this out loud. I wonder if that's in a way kind It's like this nobody's perfect attitude >> and that >> you missed the mark, >> right? Yeah. You just missed the mark. But hey, nobody's perfect. You know, everybody makes mistakes. The issue I have with that, though, is we're not just a bunch of mistakers. Cuz this is a mistake. I was supposed to turn left there. I I wasn't paying attention. I was screwing around with the radio. I turned right. That's a mistake. You didn't do it on purpose. You didn't do it to hurt anybody. There was no sin nature involved in that, right? But then when you have somebody do something that's egregious, right? where they they violate another image bearer of God in some way like you know being violent to them or abusing them or you know any of those types of things. That's where it's just kind of like we're not mistakers. We're not whoopsy daisies. Like y'all are acting out and making conscious decisions in your sin nature. And like that's when I talk to people about, you know, you talk [clears throat] to people that have gotten into violent situations or maybe they got into a rough situation in their business, screwed somebody over. uh people that have had affairs, people that have had all these different things and they're describing it as like, "Oh yeah, I just made a mistake." It's like, "No, you made a whole bunch of decisions on purpose and you did it because you thought it wasn't that big a deal and you thought you could get away with it." It's like otherwise what was the motivation by behind doing something so destructive? >> I think when when they make that comment of like, "Hey, I just made a mistake." [clears throat] I don't feel like there's true repentance in that. Like it wasn't like David like Nathan came to David and he was like, "You know what, Nathan? I made a mistake. My bad." >> You know, like I made a mistake. But no, it's like I I think that's when when we look at this and and that's one thing that gets me all the time is like what I hate hearing a lot is like, well, I just sin differently than you, >> you know, like I just s like I sin differently just cuz I sin differently. And it's like no, if you see me sinning, call me out. >> I need to repent. And like and most of the time if I am sinning, I'm going to call myself out. I might be too bullheaded sometimes and I need somebody like my wife or Kyle or Jada to put me into church discipline, you know? >> Uh but that's the thing. But like we've made this we've made the excuse of I made a mistake or I just sin differently. My sin is different. And it's just like there's no true repentance when we say something like that. Like we're not coming like with the heart of David that we saw last week in verse 17. And uh or not, it wasn't last week. Um, >> yeah, it was last week. >> Was it last week? Yeah. Verse 17 where he's like has true repentance towards Nathan. And so that's where it's just like I I hear you on that and that's and and I just think that's just something our modern church culture is just kind of compromised on. >> I I feel like what I hear you're saying is that there's there's too many people that use that as a crutch and be like, "Oh, for for all have sinned." Well, >> dad gum it. I did it again. >> Everybody sinned freaking >> But I think we [clears throat] don't have Yeah. We don't have a culture of repentance. >> No, we don't. Well, I think it's also because people don't repentance is not I'm really really sorry. It's like they think it's a very fervent sorry. It's like no, no, no. It's a 180 turn away because I'm sorry is a 360 turn. It's like I'm sorry. I'm just going to turn around and I hit the reset button until I do it again. No, repentance is I'm going the opposite direction of the way I was going. I was going the way of death and now I'm moving towards the way of life. And we just don't treat it that way. >> But nobody feels a conviction >> that you know and that's the thing. It's like I talked about uh last week where I got on to somebody and I lost my my temper and my frustrations. I couldn't sleep that night because of that, you know, like that bothered me the whole time that cuz that was God convicting me of what I was dealing with. And then I had to have true repentance. When I talked to that person, they're like, "You don't need to apologize." I was like, "No, but I do." you guys feel like equally as true as as what you're saying as far as somebody might use that as crutch is that there's also a danger zone here where sitting where we're at where I feel like we're we're kind of lumping this on a certain type of group of people that might might do that that we have to be careful about not using this and and using it as a spear and being too judgmental towards somebody. >> Well, I think obviously legalism has its own issues, but Jay, go ahead and hit that. Well, I I think the if you go back to Genesis 3, so Adam and Eve, the fall, they were designed to bring glory to God, to ascribe God the worth that he was due. And when they failed to do that, the state that they put themselves in and therefore all of mankind is in is the state of I think it describes it in Romans 1:21 that fallen man does neither glorify God nor thank him. So the essence of sin is an existence that does not that does not seek to glorify God or or to acknowledge him or give him the gratitude uh that that he deserves. It's this gross misappropriation of honor. So it's not just mistakes. Um it's it's a really a failure uh to live up to the way God has made us, which is to bring him honor, to to to deliver to him praise, to show his worth. Um, and we know full well left to ourselves. We we run the opposite direction of that. And so to fall short of the glory of God is not to just beh we we we make m everybody makes mistakes. You know, everybody misses the mark uh to use the archery term for sin. No, it's it's we've we've failed to descri God is our creator and we've turned our back on him >> um and and willfully and we don't glorify him and he's the only thing worth glory in the universe and yet we'd rather disobey him than uh submit our lives to him. So put pushed further in that cate into that place. I think the glory of the gospel uh in in in what God has done to draw us back to himself as m and make us right with him uh is then put on greater display rather than God's done something for the mistakes that we make. Uh and and we all make mistakes kind of kind of thinking. >> You bring up Genesis 3 because of the sin they could no longer be naked and unashamed. So God had to shed the blood of innocent animals to provide for them a covering for their nakedness. >> And fast forward to the gospel, there's there's the shedding of the blood to provide a covering because of sin as right as well. That happens in that's the story of the gospel as well. >> But clarify something you were asking there because I lost it in my in my esoteric explanation. I >> I think what I think what it was was is Kyle's argument. I I think don't I might be paraphrasing Kyle. tell if I'm if I'm saying this wrong, but was that a lot of people tend to look at this verse and use it as a crutch. Oh, I've just sinned again. You know, for all of sin, so I've sinned. >> So my my concern was that although although that is true, we could be sitting around this table and also use this as a judgmental spear and and instead, you know, say, well, yeah, you are clearly not uh repentive of your sins and you're just continuing to fall on that when really I think we have to be a little bit careful because that's not for us. Well, yeah. Okay, >> that's not for us. >> He was rephrasing for Jay. >> That's good. >> Oh, my bad. >> Yeah, that's good. >> Am I making sense what I'm saying? No, >> it makes total sense in the fact like >> I'm not going to call out somebody I don't know on their sin >> and ask them to repent. Like like that's that's not my job, you know? Like now if one of you guys are in sin, I might I might call you out on that because we're brothers >> and and that's what it comes. But like I'm not going to go out to someone who one is not a Christian or two, you know, who is not a Christian in my church or who I'm even associated with and call them out on their sin and tell them to repent. That's that's not my job. >> When in another Pauline letter, you know, he gives us the standards by which we are to judge the brethren, those that are here, right? So, it's like, hey, God's going to take care I can't remember the exact reference, but hey, God's going to take care of judging the people outside of here, >> but I'm going to give you the standards by which you are to judge the people that are inside of here. >> I love you guys enough that if I see sin, I want to see you repent. That's that's why when we call out sin, we call out sin out of out of love, you know? We don't call it out of to like, hey, I'm better than you. I mean, because then we're just boasting. >> We're just boasting in our own works. >> And that's it's important also. I'm going to use the word repent again. It's it's important to view repentance as a blessing. >> Yeah. >> It's the kindness of the loving God that leads us to repentance. I think a lot of people view repentance as as punitive. It's kind of part of the penance process of getting caught in your sin. Um and so we kind of associate it with sort of this this act of shame that we have to kind of publicly declare. No, man. Repentance is beautiful. It it glorifies God. It it demonstrates humility. It it's it shows that God's work is alive in your heart. It it's just beautiful. >> And it is and it shows a humbleness, you know, because like you and I like, you know, like we talked about that last batch of like the forging table. I was like, what were we going over? Like Matthew or something like that? And like you and I were going through the thick of it with a friend and like we were we were like going back and forth, you know, with this thing. And finally I had to subside myself cuz I was still angry about that episode where I was thinking irrational thoughts about you and I had to come and tell you. I had to be like, man, I was being pherosaical in the way that I was acting and and and the thoughts that I had. Even though you didn't know those thoughts, I was open about those thoughts and I was like, "I need to repent." And like it was a humbling moment that I'd never wanted to do, but I made myself do it. And it it was it just God like just telling me like, "Bro, you need to take your step back. You need to walk out of that cage stage Calvinism >> and you need to you need to go and talk to your brother." >> But multiple people have talked to me about that episode, including Joby, that he was like people that didn't know, you know, about the [snorts] your feelings afterwards and, you know, your conversation with Adam afterwards, but they were just like >> like I remember Joby specifically saying that was one of my favorite. He's like, "That may have been the best episode of the forging table ever." And I'm like, "Really? Why?" Cuz I mean, we were, I don't know, a year into it at some point, a year and a half of doing the forging table. And he's like, "Cuz it showed fervent disagreement between two guys that clearly care for one another, right? And if your brother is wrong, you want to prove to them that they're wrong so that they can make corrective action." The same should be true in the opposite. The issue becomes like, "Hey, is this a matter of opinion or is this a matter of fact, right? Right? Cuz if it's a matter of opinion, then we can talk until the cows come home, but no one's going to be right and no one's going to be wrong. But if it's if [clears throat] we're talking about facts here, we got to make sure that we get those straight if we're talking about truth. >> But we also have to look at it and like Joby's right. Like I had love for Adam, but like I also had love for my own pride, >> you know, and that's what God kind of opened up to my eyes that when I was dealing with it, it was like, all right, I love Adam. I'm trying to get him to understand this. I feel like he's combating me on this. It's taking me off, you know, and it's just like who is he to question me? And you know what that was? That was pride. >> And that was me being pheriseical. And >> you add that to his list of things if he's going to be under repented, you know. >> Well, we got to we'll let them be the judge of [laughter] that. Okay. >> But but yeah, no, I I don't want to beat the dead horse. >> No, I I think that's a good thing. But I mean, we kind of keep circling the drain on propitiation, you know, back to verse 25. whom God put forward as a propreciation for his blood to be received by faith. One thing that I think is interesting and again I didn't grow up in church. Who grew up in church? You? No. Okay. You two heathens over here. Team heathen. Um so it never occurred to me Jay. Um and again starting to go to church on my own as like a 15-year-old like knuckle dragging ear like idiot. Like it never occurred to me that people thought that Jesus being sent down to pay for the sin debt of humanity was not was plan was not plan A. I guess because that was the plan from like from the beginning because God in his sovereignty and fornowledge knew what was going to happen and so he knew before time and memoriam before creation that that this was always going to be the plan and I think people don't like that either because they're like man if if Eve would have just shown a little bit more discernment whenever the dragon because it was a dragon not a snake but when the dragon was tempting her just if she had shown a little bit more discernment If Adam wasn't such a doofus, like if he wasn't sitting around there apparently doing nothing while a dragon was trying to consume his wife, like then then this would have all been good and we would have just been in the line of Adam and it would have been just fine. But it's like, no, no, no. That wasn't the cross wasn't plan B. >> You know what I mean? And I just don't think I reckon with that enough cuz I just didn't think that people actually thought that way. >> What about you guys? Did y'all have y'all thought about that before? I mean, A versus plan B. I I've never I' I've never thought about plan A versus plan B. I've always kind of known it as plan A. Um just because like even before creation that that this was God's plan, but it does like make me in my human mind. It's like to me it's a mystery, you know? It's like, well, why would he create us if he knew we were going to do this, you know? Um but I think that's the thing. It's like why would I want to, you know, be a part of the creation of my children if I if I knew down the line they were going to do something to me? And there's more than likely they could do something to me. But like we're a creation that he loves. Like he created us and he wanted that he wanted that that creation. He wanted that creation to worship him and love him just as he loved us. And he was willing to make that sacrifice from the beginning. So I think I to me it shows the true beauty of love. >> I mean how many times when Jesus is talking to his apostles in parables and they don't understand it, they can't figure it out and he's like idiots. >> How much longer am I going to be with you guys? It's like hanging out with Kyle. >> Yes. [laughter] It's see the abuse that I take from from these two. I'm just like taking strays over here. Wasn't even talking. It was Adam because he said something about Adam. He's the one that attacked you here at this here forging table. I've never said anything mean to you at this table ever. >> I'm getting the smelling salts again. That's what I'm going to do. >> Just thank thank goodness like in in Matthew as we're going through as I was been reading it and uh when Jesus has been going through these parables, thank goodness for Peter that Peter's willing to be like, uh, what does this mean? [laughter] Everybody else is thinking it, but Peter's the only dumb enough. >> What are you talking about? >> What are you talking What does this mean? I don't I don't get it. So, but my whole point in bringing that up is like we're not going to understand all of these details. There are certain things and certain specific things that are going to be a mystery. >> Yeah. And I just got to look at the beauty of beauty of it, you know? That's how I look at it. >> Well, I think the smelling salts actually prove as a pretty good illustration. >> Let's hear this. I want to go. >> Do you need Do I need to get them again? >> No. Are you sure? >> Yeah. Positive. So, you know, the the the first 20 verses of chapter 3 are smelling salts. Like, golly. And then you right up your eyeballs. >> I mean, just it burns. It hurts. >> Release our own smelling salts. >> Golly. Uh, how do I get away from this? And then verse 21, it's like >> put him away. Fresh air. But now, the glory of the gospel. Uh, going back to Luther, he called this this passage the chief point of the entire Bible. >> Verses 21 through 26. I high praise for that. >> Certainly high praise. Uh so um we're going to come back next week and we're going to there's still a whole lot to cover in this section here, but then uh we're going to see what we can do to potentially finish out Romans 3 next week because you know in verse 24 there's some justification that I think we need to talk about. We didn't even get into divine forbearance and different things. And then next week we can uh we can take the pin out of the thing that we put a pin in a couple of weeks ago, which is uh solidifying Faith Bible Church's position on tulip and different things. And then we can have round two of the knockdown dragout between the ultimate Baylor Armenian is Armenian. Yeah, Armenian versus uh you know the former cage stager that is always willing to shift back up into that gear if he needs to. >> I'll do it. I'll do it. >> Round two is >> Are we going to debate LGBTQ stuff for Baylor as well? >> Oh man, we [laughter] could do that. I'm not on the train. >> Are you on that train? >> Well, yeah, cuz Baylor's postChristian now. So, how's that going? >> No comment. >> I mean, that should tell you everything you need to know about Armenianism now, people. >> True. [laughter] >> Golly. So, >> he's dragging me right now. >> So, man, this has been a bad time for me. This really, this really does suck. So, but where I've tried to land on this is like if a family member strays away, do you just completely abandon them? >> Of course. Take them out and shoot them. >> Shoot our judicial abandonment. It happens. >> No. So, so you don't you don't you don't abandon them. you still you try to bring them back to center, right? And so I can't find myself just completely abandoning the university because it feels like a family to me and I feel like they've they have gone astray and they are being led in a really bad direction from the top and it's scary and it's dangerous and so they they've got to be reentered back in the correct way. So is me just walking away and choosing to not be a part of that, right? I would say no. >> The university is not a person and the university [clears throat] is not a prodical child. I I get where he's coming from because we have some fellow forging tables tableablers that go to a church that we're not super keen on, but I really do appreciate the fact that they're they're trying to make the changes there at that church to, you know, kind of make it better. So like they're not giving up on that church and just going someplace else. They're they're trying to do something knock the dust off your feet. >> I do think an institution is different than a human being. So you get that. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I do. But I said I said it feels like a family member, but I didn't say they were my family. So, but I I do think I'm not going to just completely abandon it without like making an effort to try to change it and be what I think it should be. >> But you do have you do have a plausibility structure for there might be a time where you find that that that errand is feudal. >> Yeah, I no doubt. Yeah, I'm not I'm not at that point yet, but it is >> I could have told you that was coming just by their by Truit Seminary. So, [laughter] >> yeah. And I don't I don't know anything about TRIT from what I've started to research. It's like not positive. >> I had a professor I had a professor and this was in South Carolina. And so I mean we have cultural Christianity in Oklahoma, but it's but it's even thicker in the south. So you know to to live in a community like southern or like uh Columbia, South Carolina or Jackson, Mississippi or, you know, Birmingham, Alabama. I mean, you go to church because it's just a it's a social criteria to go to church to be seen there or to be connected to some, you know, body. Um, but anyway, he had this he had an evangel evangelistic ministry. He had gotten pretty well connected with some state reps and judges and kind of the the movers and shakers in Colombia and um was kind of became a person of influence, but his whole his whole agenda was to share the gospel and to disciple these people and to teach them to share the gospel. And so [clears throat] they would do these events where um he was, you know, seminary professor. And so they would they would uh gather in somebody's nice home in their living room, have dessert, and they would just pepper him with questions. And it wasn't a bait and switch deal. Like they knew coming in that, you know, Dr. Jones would be there, and they could ask him spiritual questions. But then out of that, they would acknowledge like who was genuinely interested in this conversation. Like who was like really searching? And they would do some follow-up, and they would share the gospel. And anyway, long story short, a lot of these people were in mainline churches or churches that were no longer really preaching the gospel. Um, again, they're just sort of socially expected to be there. But the way they would coach them up was, as long as you can stand it, stay in like these people that were coming to faith in Christ and they were discipling. As long as you can stand it, stay in that place. Be a change agent. Begin sharing the gospel. Because these guys had been in, you know, I don't want to name the denominations, but one of these mainline denominations their whole lives. And when they were shared the go shared with the gospel one-on-one, it was completely new to them. >> Oh, >> this idea of Christ dying on the cross for their sin. They'd never heard it before and they'd been in church their whole lives. And so the charge was as long as you can stay there, try to bring this message to to other people in in the church and be a change a so >> that's super reassuring. I'd love I'd love to hear that. I think the danger in what and seems more scary to me is I don't think that's a situation here. where they have heard it and their interpretation is drastically different and just >> not what I I read it should be you know >> undaunted missionary trip >> to Baylor >> to wake >> bro >> we're going to go bring the gospel we're going to like we're going to TP will get kicked off campus immediately but we could certainly try >> you should wear your pride you should wear your pride shirt >> Oh yeah I could wear my pride shirt but dude tell me all those fat lesbian cops down there are going to be able to catch me as I'm running your campus. Come on, man. >> Oh, man. There's so much more I want to say, but I'm not going to say it on there. >> Well, I guess we'll leave it there. You can tell us off air. But guys, we're going to leave it there. We'll come back and we'll we'll start somewhere next week. Who the heck knows? So, read through the end of chapter 3 and we'll probably hit most of that. But before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost. Adam Life mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Logos, best Bible software on the planet. Get it at a discount. Check out the show notes. Also, we've got the forging table starter set through Crossway. five amazing books that you can get at a 50% discount. And we are a donationbased ministry. So if you want to see us be able to continue to put out content like this for guys all around the globe, hop on board and be a donor, undaunted.life/donate. Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five-star review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@unton.life. That's info@undanton.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook. and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www.undauntton.life. And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is their song Perpetual, which is off their self-titled debut album on Faceown Records. The links are in the description. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the Lion of Judah. >> [music] [music]