[music] This is Undaunted [music] Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. Welcome back to the forging table. The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. At the forging table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience by digging into God's word. And we're welcome all of you to come along on that journey with us. There's OG Ryan in the house. Adam's in the house as well. And guess what, guys? We are in trouble cuz as I live and breathe, that is Jay Risner making his return appearance to the forging table. You are the what's the official title with Faith Bible? >> Lead pastor. >> Lead pastor. So lead pastor with our church that we all attend and also you're an elder. But what is it that Ryan said that caused you to come here today to start the church discipline process? >> There's a confidentiality thing that I >> could have been anything I said. No, nothing I said. >> No, no, you're fine. You're fine. You're fine. >> Oh, man. This is exciting. >> This is exciting. >> Is it true that the elders have a a mug that says or I that got me a mug or there's a mug that the reason my elders drink coffee is because of me? >> Because of you personally. >> Yeah. >> Does it say Ryan Horn on the mug? >> Yeah. No. >> Has like this bald mole rat looking dude. >> No. No. No. That's good. Urban Legend. Urban Legend. >> I don't know where that came from, but >> but I know what I'm getting everybody for Christmas. Speaking of which, guys, we're we're recording this in the past, but this episode comes out the week of Christmas. Okay, so Christmas spirit is in the air. And there's a few things that people do during the Christmas season. You know, there's nutmeg, there's there's Christmas parties, there's dirty Santa, there's all those types of things. And then there's the greatest snack ever invented. Now, no, now if y'all are watching this now, you saw an exasperated sigh for Mr. Ryan Horn because the last batch we recorded, for whatever reason, I went to the other side of the studio where I had a unopened box of Christmas tree cakes from last year. And what I was thinking is these things are made out of basically like oil and it's not food technically. They don't have an expiration date. They're going to be just fine. We open up the box and on contr. All of us took one bite. They were incredibly stale. They were awful. Ryan's looking something up, so he's not really getting, you know, he's not really in this with me. He's not in this story with me. disengaging. >> That was the nastiest. >> But it was awful. Like it was awful. Don't you >> Don't you freeze like seven boxes a year. >> He didn't freeze these. These things were like old, dude. >> And so I kind of feel like because it's Christmas season, I feel like we need to kind of like rekindle this. But so >> ah these better be a fresh batch. >> So I've got a box here, but but and Landon, if we can look here, uh Jay, if you wouldn't mind, can you read what it says there on the bottom right or bottom left on the box? Christmas tree cakes celebrating 40 years. >> 40 years. This is the 40th birthday of Christmas tree cakes. Wow. >> And so what I think about, you know, how like you know when we go went through the Old Testament, there's like a lot of foreshadowing and foretelling and all that. These were here just before I was. And so like these were here before I was born. And so that like there there's there's some like you know that there's some positivity in that. >> But you know we you know if it's worth doing it's worth overdoing. So I feel like we should celebrate. You know, this is kind of a birthday party. >> So, I got everybody some hats. >> So, Jay, since you're the most serious amongst us, you get the Santa hat. And yeah, go ahead and take off the the headphones and you got to you got to wear that. And while you're doing that, Adam, [clears throat] will you tell the story of your preferred way to die? Because it's not quietly in a bed somewhere with your family surrounding you, praying for you, singing hymns. How would you like to go out? >> Abs. Absolutely not. I've really thought through this. So, I don't want to be the guy that just sits in a bed, wastes away to die. So, I have decided I'm going to wait till maybe hopefully I make it to at least 80. 80 sounds about right. So, the goal is to make it to 80 and I want to go to Alaska. And in Alaska, the goal is to find a family of grizzly bears and make sure that they're friendly and nice grizzly bears. You know, they don't they don't want to fight or anything, but we're going to antagonize them a little bit. So, the goal is we're going to set up cameras and we're going to stream Facebook live me getting completely naked covering myself in honey and starting a fight with a group of grizzly bears. >> Yeah. >> Because here's the thing. If I die and it tears me apart, I'm still going to be famous on Facebook because I'm the crazy dude who went out with his boots on or naked with covered in honey. >> Does that sound like a good thing? >> And decided to go out and do something rather than just die in bed. But what if I win? >> You're not going to win. What if I win? Leonardo, what if I win? >> You wouldn't You wouldn't win if you were fighting like a white tail deer or something like that. Even they would jack you up, brother. >> Do you know where bears start eating? >> Butthole. >> That's what I've heard. >> That's the last thing people are going to remember is your butthole getting gnawed by a bear. Be remembered for not fighting. That that clip is going to be on Instagram for sure. [laughter] But >> whatever the version of Instagram is. And so I But in in this scenario, you're not in a fight in Alaska. You're in a fight in the Arctic Circle cuz I got you a polar bear hat. So there you go. Go ahead and throw on your polar bear hat. >> But then what I was thinking about Ryan >> Baldi the snowman. >> Yeah, that's too easy. [laughter] Uh you're always busting my ball. So you're the Nutcracker. You're the Nutcracker. There you go. Go ahead and throw that on that bald beautiful head. Anyone want to take any guesses on what mine is? >> Uh is it like ginger elf? >> A ginger what? >> A ginger elf? >> No. >> Somebody really angry like uh >> No. Gingerbread man. Come on. Well done. >> I knew I knew it was close. But how come all elves usually like in those >> Why are you asking me as if I'm like in [clears throat] this this clan? Why would I know that? >> You should know. >> Why don't I know that? >> I can't get past the 40 years thing. I That's a biblically significant number. >> Uh is that pointing us to something >> bigger perhaps that's going on? >> I think so. All right. Is this a temptation for your friend? >> Yes, temptation. Sorry. We're all going to say goodbye at the same time. We're all bite. You can at least open it and we're going to cheers. >> We're going to cheers here real quick. We're going to cheers. Just kidding. Wait a minute, guys. Remember, I already said if it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing because again, >> I did us dirty the last time. I thought these were going to be good to go. So, y'all can put those down, but because we'll get to them here in a second, >> but I thought, you know, we got these, but there are other offerings from Little Debbie. >> Oh my gosh. >> We got chocolate Christmas tree cakes. So, boom. Didn't even know those existed. >> That's a thing. >> Wish I would have known this. I wouldn't have eaten lunch today. >> We got Christmas tree nutty buddies, right? So, there are some Christmas tree nutty buddies. Showing it for for the camera there survived this long. >> I don't know. You know what else we got? >> We got snowflake brownies. All right. So, there's some snowflake brownies for the people at home. >> Yeah, those do not look good. >> These aren't real honest. Those did not look good to me either. But we got Christmas tree brownies. a little bit more. It's the same ingredients as the snowflakes, but all of us are saying it's somehow different. >> I'd rather be a tree than a snowflake. >> Where did you get all those? >> All right. And then we got Christmas tree mini muffins, right? Check that out. Camera one. Bam. Bam. You like those? [laughter] >> And then uh >> they're buttery vanilla. >> And then uh I'm just going to go and say it. There's the normal Christmas tree cakes. >> Double. >> Then there's the big pack. >> It's like the double stuff. >> Yeah. So it's basically like double stuff. So check this out. Check this out. So, we got to compare the sizes here. >> Look at this thing. Oh, it's like a double. >> Yeah. Look at that. Look at the combo. Look at the comparison. >> Yeah. So, it's >> That's like the rest of you, you guys. >> This is like pre-diabetes. That's full on diabetes. >> So, this is what we're going to do. >> That's like Jake Winkler sized. >> Oh, yeah. This is the Christmas tree. All right. So, this is what we're going to do. >> We're all going to taste test these. >> I'm going to eat them all this episode. >> But I mean, we're not going to eat all of them. Like the whole thing. >> I'm going to do it. But we just we need to get some sort of a like collective ranking, you know. So, hey, if you'll like open up your box and uh you know, >> Adam, you get distribute. >> Yeah. So, if you can distribute here. >> All right. And we're losing some mic discipline cuz none of us have our headphones on, including me. So, let's let's make sure talking to it. >> All right. Yeah. Me, too. Me, too. All right. So, I got the chocolate ones. >> I mean, my middle school self. >> Yeah. Now, I'm just like, "Oh my gosh, what is this going to do to me?" All right. Bam. >> Oh, muffins. >> Bam. There's that. Get out of here. All right, we got muffins. A whole package of muffins here. Okay, get out. Get out of here. All right, there's that. >> You missing one? >> No, I I left a a Christmas tree brownie in there. >> Oh, >> I need butter. No, I have one. I'm just saying the one I threw has a Christmas tree in it. So, someone's going to have a lucky day when they open that box. >> Well, yeah, there's there's some left over for all these. Hey, not everybody has these. The the snowflake. All right, snowflake. >> You got the snowflake. Snowflake. Look at all these viddles. >> Yeah, we got so many viddles. All right. >> All right. So, let's uh let's do them one at a time. >> Which one? We start with you get to choose. You get to choose the order and then we're going to rank them. Yeah. So, let's just give the goat the the goat a little bit of a taste. So, yeah, we can cheers. We'll cheers the first one. So, merry Christmas. Merry Christmas. >> I know it's torture. >> Smells delicious. >> I know it's torture. We are going to rank these. So, >> at this point, it's been eight months since I've had cookie or >> give it to me. I'll bite it for you. Yeah. Yeah. You eat all of mine. Let me know. >> All right, Ryan. What's next? >> What are we going with? >> What can Adam eat? >> Nothing. None of this. >> Snowflake Brown. >> Fool of air. All right. >> I'm a huge Nutty Bar guy, so this one's actually harder for me than not eating that. So, go Nutty Bar. >> The Nutty Bar looks promising. >> This snowflake brownie looks awful, even in person. All right, here we go. Get in the bite. >> Is it minty? >> Dropped them. >> What's What's the blue? >> Actually, it's not bad. >> That's just food coloring. M. >> It's not terrible. >> Really? >> It tastes better than what I was expecting. >> I thought it was going to be like shortbread. >> No. >> No. It's brownie. >> Yeah, it's brownie. That's not bad. That's not bad. All right, go next. >> Maybe should go straight nut butter. >> Are we going Oh, going to nutter butter. >> Going to nutter butter. >> Non Christmas season. Nutter butter might be my favorite. >> This one's number one. It's got peanut butter in it. Yeah. >> I might finish this one. >> Yeah. Yeah. Like that. Like that. This is the one that surprised me the most. I never knew there was a chocolate Christmas tree. >> Chocolate Christmas tree. >> All right, here we go. Chocolate Christmas tree. >> About 15 minutes from now, you guys are all going to go to sleep. >> I was about to say I'm fall asleep >> or get diarrhea or diabetes. >> This just This tastes like a um >> kind of like a ding-dong. >> Ding-dong. That's exactly what I was going to say. >> I bet frozen that would be excellent. >> Frozen dipped in peanut butter. >> Dipped in peanut butter. >> That was That was better than I was expecting. I was expecting that to be awful. So, which of the ones you've had so far, [clears throat] which one would be best? Like with an ice cold cup of milk, like dip it in the milk. >> Oh, the nut or butter? >> Oh, probably chocolate cake. >> Probably the chocolate cake. >> All right. What What's next, Ryan? >> Uh, let's do this big bad boy. >> The big boy. >> Big boy. >> Couple stuff. >> Yeah. This is basically what we're going for. >> Adam, I'm so sorry. I'm making it up to you with cigars and whiskey. >> Do they make a combo of Christmas tree and Oreo? Cuz that would be >> illegal. That would be it, right? >> I like that cuz the cake is just so moist and it's just more of it. >> Moist. Very moist. [snorts] >> Very moist. >> All right, two left. We got Christmas mini muffins and the brownie tree. >> Roman some sprinkles in it. >> Brownie tree. Brownie tree. Assuming it's going to be the exact same as the snowflake. >> It's got some crunchies on it. >> I don't like that. I do not like that. >> That smells terrible. >> Yeah, that doesn't smell good. We're just going to put that one over there. >> Why does this one smell so much worse than the snowflake, >> man? It's got a bad I should wash my mouth out with Jaco hydrate orange. >> Does that go to Hey, >> I'm cutting an ad right here. jofuel.com promo code Kyle or Undaunted at checkout. I can't remember which. >> Is it the green icing? >> I think I think it's the icing. >> Little Debbie. I'm not impressed. >> I'm going to go with the Jaco go sprinkles maybe. >> Wait, muffins. >> All right, muffins. Muffins. >> Now, you know what would be good with? They got to be fresh. >> What's the second ingredient after water? Sugar. >> Sugar. >> Oh, yeah. >> But these heated up. >> I don't even know what that means. Heated up would be pretty money. >> I mean, it's like the second most ingredient in here is sugar. >> Got it. Yeah. Not a fan. >> All right. So, everyone take a moment. We need to personally rank them because we need a like consensus top three for the table. >> So, I'm going to go ahead and put >> All right. I'm just going to get those out of here. I need to move the word. >> Yeah. I don't want the word to get dirty during our Christmas party. >> Okay. All right. All right. Let me know when you got it. Jay, you ready? >> Top three. >> Top three. All right. What uh what is your number three? Well, Adam, do you want to get a ranking here? >> No, I I got a ranking. >> All right, we go from three to one. >> Three to three to one. >> Yeah. >> Chocolate. I'm going to go with the uh chocolate Christmas tree. >> Okay. Number two, I'm going to go with my peanut butter. Although I love peanut butter, you just can't go OG. OG's got to go number one. >> Yeah. Yeah, I'm with that. But that's not even the OG cuz that's like the oversized Winkler OG. >> That's super OG. We'll call it the Winkler cake from now on. So the Winkler cake. >> Winkler cake number one. >> All right, cool. So that's the ranking. Ryan, what do we got? >> I'm going to go with Winkler. >> Winkler cake is third. All right. >> Yep. >> Nutter Butter 2. >> Nutter Butter Two. >> And the chocolate cake is got to go number one. >> Okay. You like chocolate cake number one? J. >> This is the glass of milk. >> Very similar ranking. The classic >> is third. >> Nutter Butter. >> Nutter Butter 2. >> Chocolate Christmas. >> I think we all have the same stuff in the top three. So, basically, we can agree as a table. The mini muffins and the two brownies. Get the heck out of here. All right. >> I'm going the chocolate the chocolate Christmas tree cake. We're doing that third. We're doing Nutter Butter second. >> And we're just going to go I kind of feel like it's a combo deal here, but yeah, you got to go with the Winkler size uh Christmas tree cake. That's going to be the one that I finished. But yeah, that I was most surprised by the chocolate one. Yeah, I think that that's uh that's the most surprising one. But >> do do you realize that our ranking was exactly the same and I didn't even eat any of them? >> Yeah, >> I think you copied me. >> Did we just become best friends? >> BE LIKE ME. >> YAY. HEY, but all I can say is >> merry Christmas and happy birthday, Little Debbie Christmas tree cakes. We're so glad that you're here and in our lives. Uh there's not really a great way to transition. Uh if you guys want to keep your Christmas hats on, you can. Or we can throw our uh throw our stuff back on. We can keep them on the table. Boom. There we go. But back to business. >> I like >> I want to finish all these cakes, but I already got stuffed. >> Yeah, that's kind of the thing. >> You like You ever watch those cooking shows? >> I I don't. But >> I love cooking shows like Dave Ramsey or Dave Ramsey. >> Dave Ramsey. >> Sorry, Gordon. >> No, he's sitting there like castigating everybody for spending too much on ingredients. He's like, "Why did you do that? >> Why did you get Spaghettiios?" Yeah. Jerk. Live now like no one else so you can live later in life like no one else. >> Where's the ramen noodle? >> Yeah. Exactly. >> No. So I you watch like Gordon Ramsay and all those guys and like the the baking shows and I always see them just go like take little bites >> and I'm like how do you not want to finish it? >> True. >> And then I did this. >> Ah that's why. >> And I'm like oh that's why I just like put a whole cake in my mouth and now it's stuffed. >> Mhm. >> These Winkler sized ones are extra fresh. Right. So I think that's the thing that really is doing it for me with these. >> Mine was kind of mauled. Mine Mine did not look great. I think that affected the scoring scoring. >> Would you put them in? Would you put the ranking on? >> Well, I mean, I put the OG number three. This one didn't make the top three for me, but it's I mean, it's the same thing. >> Yeah. Well, [snorts] >> I thought so until I tried the OG and then I tried this one. Actually, also, by the way, >> I can see where the ratio would be better, though. You got more cake to icing, >> right? And there's more whatever goo stuff is there on the inside. So, shout out to some place. Or actually, my phone's over there. This is worth it. Hang on. Got to give him a shout out. I wonder if Little Debbie is a sponsor. Do you think Little Little Little Debbie is sponsoring this podcast? >> Yeah. What could help you with your physical resilience more than Little Debbie snack cakes? All right. >> So, there is a spot in Muscogee, Oklahoma. Oh, I sent it to you guys, didn't I? >> Mhm. >> All right. Let me see if I if I can't find it quickly, then I'll just skip it. All right. >> Is this the video where it you're walking through the aisles and it's like 1700 boxes of Little Debbie? >> I guess I've sent you more than one Little Debbie Christmas tree cake video. We get them all the time. There are a lot more. >> They start coming in middle of October. Like that's that's one of the the ways I know it's almost Christmas time is Kyle starts sending me videos of Christmas tree cakes. >> Yeah. >> You think I'm joking, but it's true. >> All right. So, >> all right. So, >> check this out. I can't show it on screen, but it's fried deep fried Christmas tree cakes. >> All right. So, wait. Let me get the name of it. >> That's horrible. >> Hang on. Hang on. Let What What did he say? smoking it up. BK Concessions >> BK Concessions in uh Muscogee, Oklahoma, about 2 hours and 15 minutes away from Oklahoma City. So, shout out to them for doing the deep fried Christmas tree cake. And then they put some jelly on there. >> That's one of those things that when you take your first bite, you're like, "Oh my gosh, this is the most amazing thing I've ever had in my life." And then your second bite, you want to die because it's just terrible. Little rough. >> It's like a monorristo sandwich. Have you ever had a monorristo sandwich? And then you get diarrhea after. >> Yes. >> I'm the only I haven't even heard of such things. >> So I had I had a a Monristo sandwich at Binigans. Benigans. >> That's what they were known for. >> Dude, I don't even know what is. All right. I remember it's it's deep fried peanut butter and jelly with ham. >> Oh my god. >> The one the one that I had it was actually like four or five layers of bread with like all kinds of like turkey and cheese everything in it. And then it's deep fried and then they cover cheese >> and then they cover it covered it in powdered sugar >> and then you dip it in jelly >> and and you eat you eat one bite of it. You're like this is the most amazing thing I've ever bite two or bite three you're already ready to be done. It's like I cannot continue to >> I would like to try that theory out though. I'm going to be real honest. >> I miss Hey, uh there's a cheddar, isn't there? >> Such a good place. >> Cheddars now. Cheddar. >> Cheddar. Cheddar makes chedders make some money. >> They do it. Okay. >> Yeah. Ah. >> Yeah. >> Well, it's amazing. >> That's point. We got to transition to the Bible. We probably should. >> If you guys have been following along, we are in Romans and we have been ro in Romans for about 174 hours at this point. And we're in Romans 3 today, starting with Romans 3 because with the forging table, we normally do an hour at a time, one chapter of the Bible at a time, but we decided collectively as a group with Romans. And we did talk this through with Jay, too, at church. Hey, let's slow down with Romans. It's Mount Everest. You don't sprint up Mount Everest. You got to take your time. And so we've uh spent how many sessions? I What have we done? Uh 12 or 16 weeks on the first two chapters. It took us 12 hours. Yeah, it took us 12 hours to get through u Romans 1, 4 hours to get to Romans 2, and we're going to see what we can do with Romans 3 today. So, just in general, because everyone at this table prepares a little bit differently, but only one of us is a professional Christian. Um how do you approach your preparation for study? Cuz yes, this is the forging table. We have lights and cameras and microphones and all stuff. And so you're performing to a degree, but when you're just studying something like this Pauline letter, like just how do you approach the text, Jay? >> Well, I read the text. Spend about just 40 Well, I'll even show it. >> Boom. >> So, I don't use my Bible. I print it off. Double spaced because I'm older. 14point font. Um, and I just read it for like 45 minutes. Just read it. Keep reading it. Maybe underline some things. Uh, highlight some words that I want to look up later. uh but don't jump to resources or commentaries uh before I spend at least 45 minutes an hour in the text. That's how I start. >> Okay. And then how do you like prioritize what part you dig into of the text? Is it just kind of like what you're you feel led to do as soon as you're done? >> Yeah, mostly curiosity. So words that look compelling, okay, there's deeper meaning there. Sentence structure that is okay, that's forceful, that's interesting. [clears throat] Um just figuring out, okay, is that indicative? Is that imperative? Am I being commanded to do something here? Where's the gospel here? Uh how can I where where's Christ exalted? Those types of things. Is there a certain doctrine that's being highlighted? What what themes or what language is being repeated for emphasis? Yep. >> Okay. Very good. Horn. >> Bam. As you can see here, >> yeah, lots of notes. Not as many highlights as normal. I've I've done better on >> cuz normally there will be four or five words not highlighted and it's like Ryan just don't highlight anything >> but it's all so good. >> Right. Okay. >> This is why it took Piper eight years. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Eight years to cover. >> That's just I mean I just I read it. I read the text. >> I read it over again. I listen to it when I drive. If I'm traveling and I listen. If I go out for a walk I listen. Um, and then I read and then I try to put in my own notes and then I'll go back and I'll uh look at commentaries uh just to make sure I'm not saying anything heretical. So, uh, but now that we have a professional Christian here, if I do say something heretical, uh, the matter to the list of church discipline things, I'll be church disciplined. Yeah. >> Um, and that's okay because you know what? God intended for us to have church discipline so we can bear fruit. >> Well, and here's this thing, too. No one's listening to this, Jay. Uh, so do y'all do do we do church discipline? Because like in Oklahoma the joke is like, okay, you trip and fall and as you're catching your balance, you'll land on three or four different churches. And so most people would not sit there and go through church discipline. They're going to be like, okay, we'll just go to the church 300 yards down the road. So does Faith Bible actually do that? Follow through. >> For sure. >> Okay. Can you give us examples using names? >> When we do it with Ryan, >> just use me. He's so quick to repent. I mean, we button it up pretty fast. We need a better story. >> I always repent. >> Yeah, whatever. >> So, you've [laughter] probably never read our doctrinal statement and bylaws, have you? >> I've read parts of it. >> Are you even a member? >> Are you even a member? Can you even read? >> I'm so glad that you interrupted Jay. >> Here's the thing. What are you TALKING ABOUT? >> HE JUST ASKED A QUESTION. IF YOU EVER READ THE BYLAWS and everything, and it just made me realize, are you even a member? >> That was like seven or eight years ago, and I think so. Do you know the roles right there on the >> on my phone in your >> Did you meet with an elder? >> I did. >> Who was the elder that he had to meet with? >> Why are you grilling me at this [laughter] point? I'm a member of the church. you're lucky to still be there. Can you shut up so Jake can talk? >> One of the things we do say in our new member orientation is the only privilege to membership at Faith Bible because we're not a congregationally led church. We don't vote or any of those kinds of things. The only privilege of membership is discipline. That's the privilege [laughter] of of being a member of point. I was a pastor of a church one time where the privilege to membership there was we had a church cemetery. So you got a burial plot. So >> was that the one it needed? >> Yes, sir. Um, so north of town we had a we have a cemetery and if if you died as a church member, you've got to be buried there. >> Currently, um, currently here, we would have to do that in the parking lot because there's not any grass left for the most part at our church. >> People be rolling over our graves. That' >> be an issue. >> Uh, but yeah, so obviously in the in the bylaws, it speaks to the goal of discipline, which being restoration. And one of the things we say is discipline only needs to be as public as the sin. So if something's in the paper that's pretty egregious and it's one of our members, obviously we don't want that to bring reproach to Christ or the church. So we would handle that maybe in a more public way. Um that has probably happened gosh one time in since 2003. Um but so most are pretty low-level um confrontation usually somebody who we we know is in persistent you know unrepentant sin. >> Uh so not just oneoff sinning that we'd all be under discipline in that case. Uh but I do think the best discipline happens in relationship. So dudes that are close they're accountable to one another. There's little bits of discipline happening all the time as you sharpen one another. you hold each other accountable. Uh but if there's persistent sin, unrepentant sin, obviously uh you follow the guidelines of Matthew chapter 18, you confront, you bring others with you. If there's not repentance, uh and you follow that out to eventually, and again, it doesn't typically get public because the sin isn't public. Uh eventually, you treat that person as a non-believer, setting them outside, uh the fellowship. And so that's one of the reasons church membership is important is that for somebody to be set outside the membership, you have to know that they're inside the membership. And that only comes with identifiable kind of meaningful church membership. The the largest I think it was either a defamation or slander case [clears throat] to ever occur in the state of Oklahoma happened in Collinsville and it was related to a church that did discipline on a member but they didn't have discipline in their bylaws. >> So this member joined the church was disciplined in a public way and end up filing a suit against the church for defamation and won. I can see how I can. >> So if a church is going to do this to discipline, it better be in the bylaws. >> So has Faith Bible had to excommunicado anybody? >> Yes. >> Okay. And then so what happens if John Wick comes back though? Like if he like comes back into the church like what what what happens then? >> In a repentant >> No. No. Like you all kicked him out for being a knucklehead and he comes dragging those dirty knuckles back into the church. What happens? >> Well, we love him. Where he's at? >> That's why Kyle's a member. >> That's why I've been waiting for the call for Kyle. [laughter] Come on. >> Uh, we love him where he's at, but and and and we don't have a problem with presence so much. Like, it's not that you can't necessarily be here. We're just not going [clears throat] to >> you can't serve or >> we're just not going to treat you as a member. The lines have been very clearly drawn in that way. So, >> so there's not like a physical violence component that we can like work in. >> No, I mean, I've we've considered a pastor of church discipline. Your name's been brought up. Um, but to this point, I don't think we're going to make that higher. I was one of the people that was most excited about the uh active shooter training. >> He just wants to like he just wants to fight people. It's just like, "Hey man, >> you gota love them back. >> Shut your stupid mouth." No one cares about that type of thing. That's not a real thing. But I did watch there was a video. It was some I think it was in the UK cuz it was in in immigrant not speaking English. Walks up and smacks this like 18-month-old child that was like waddling through the park. And the grandpa like comes up and grabs the kid and like kind of like, you know, amiebas away like a jellyfish that he was. And I was like, why can that not happen anywhere near me? I would have heard that smack from a quarter mile away and taken off running, you know, because that's the thing. You get to do violence and there's no chance of prison time. >> Speaking of Speaking of violence, oh, go ahead. >> Speaking of violence, since I had to share my story about the bear, why don't you tell your story about what you did to the poor soul who was doing the uh active shooter training when he was like, "Hey, yeah, come through the door. Yeah, go and say what you did." >> Now, here's the thing, Jay. I feel the need to address Jay here because he just got through talking about church discipline. So here we are. I am a beautiful student and I am conscientious. I'm taking notes and this guy is telling us, okay, we're about to do a scenario here cuz he's showing us where in the room we need to put people, where we need to put barriers and those types of things. And as his part of training and this is a big guy. He was like 64, like kind of kind of a big guy. >> Yeah, I remember this guy. M. So [clears throat] he's got like a uh a dummy AR, like a, you know, big, you know, plastic AR. Yeah. And so bright blue thing. So he's like, "What you got to do is you get like right beside where the door opens because the rifle typically comes in before the person, right? Cuz people typically come in like this and start scanning. And so what you do is you grab the rifle by with both hands. And then you just It's kind of like a little bit of a judo throw. And I don't think he really knew that I knew what that was. And so he's like, "Yeah, just move your body like this and the guy will like fall over and it's just fine." So what he does cuz he's also dutiful and conscientious. He puts some mats down on the ground. And I were you in the room with me? >> Yes. >> All right. And so I think I look at Adam and some other people. I'm like, I think those mats are pretty They're like too close to the door. Like I think his body is not going to land there. >> Which they were like 8 feet away. Okay. At least 8 feet. >> Details. Details. [clears throat] But yeah, it was just one of those things where I wanted to do a good job to, you know, for training purposes and whatever. And so he walks through that and I grab the barrel of that dummy rifle and I throw him to the sky. >> He was lighter than I was expecting. Um, and you know, I had the the fulcrum and the leverage and whatever. He didn't hit anywhere near the mats. He said a bad word. He >> he hit the ceiling. He hit the ceiling. as he flew through the air, his boots came flying off [laughter] and he and he stands up and I think I'm like, "All right, we're fighting because [laughter] he was not he's not appreciative of that." But he said his bad word on the way through the air and by the time he smacked on the ground, I think he recovered and he just stands up and he's like, "No, that's it. That that's what we do. Like that's what we're going to do." And so I was like, you know, it was shocking to everybody. Uh him probably most of all, but yeah. So, you know, because we just got to make sure the church is safe, right? >> I think your adrenaline was flowing. You were made for that moment. I made pot. So, >> you could say he was lighter, but I just think >> he was light as a feather. I think he was just he wasn't as dense as I was. >> I was in your session, but I just wasn't in your group. So, I do actually >> That's when I saw your calves for the first time. I remember by the way came in in shorts, but go ahead. Yeah. >> So, I was in your session, but not in your group. But I remember this story. >> Great job. >> Probably because you heard it from taking it seriously. And well, and that's the thing because if something like that were to happen, if Haga Boob guy comes in and he's trying to jihad his way through our church, no, not on my watch. At least not in that room. And there's no padded padded uh landing for him potential either. So there you go. That was my story. But you had a transition story. >> I was just going to transition to to the Bible. So >> lame. No. Okay. I guess we probably should do that. Yeah, we had >> 30 minutes, man. >> 30 minutes in. [laughter] Hey, well this, you know, that's fine. Uh we we kind of got into that. Uh you didn't get a chance to answer how you do prep, so we'll do that and then we'll get into verse one. So, everybody already knows me. I'm the idiot who decides to it's a good idea to get in a fight with a bear. So, I'm probably not the smartest guy when it comes to uh how I'm going to figure out how I'm going to study. I cram. And so, I will read read and then I turned on MacArthur and I turned on Sproul. And I figure when I read these, I get confused from one to the next. And so, I want to hear them. Like Jay helps me a lot. MacArthur, Sproul, I want to hear them. I have the word in front of me. I take my notes and then I'm going to regurgitate what they what they told me. So, >> man, he's moved on to MacArthur and scroll. Sproul >> scroll. He's scrolling some. >> I was thinking I was like I was like that's a that's a head up from Copeland and Copeland and >> MacArthur Sproul [laughter] and Vod. >> You've ruined him. Ruined him, man. >> I've ruined him, man. >> Hey, but I will say like I I like everyone's approach, but a guy pointed out today I was on a call. It was a Dominion interview and this guy was talking about he's loving our coverage of Romans, but he says he's getting lost cuz he's forgetting cuz we spend so much time on individual verses like when we actually do eventually get to the verses. Don't worry guys, we will. And I find myself doing the same thing when I'm when I'm digging in because I'll read read the chunk. I'll read, you know, the verses. And then the two biggest ones for me this time around has been the ESV expository commentary from Crossway. Fantastic. And then I've been using RC Sproul's Romans in a year. So it kind of like, you know, you start digging through and then I will kind of forget the scripture and I'm just like haunted by something John Tyson said. I think it was at when he was at Saturated or whatever. Um was that we you shouldn't read like a chapter at a time. Like you should sit down and read a gospel at a time because if you're reading like a small chunk of of the Bible at a time, you're missing like overall narratives. You're missing tone changes because you're you're right here on top of the text. And so you can't like set it down and like kind of get the lay of the land very much. And so I' I've kind of kind of been experiencing with with both sides of that. >> That makes sense because right now we're going to talk about faith by uh justification by faith. And then when we get into chapter 4, he's kind of going back and showing you the evidence of that in the Old Testament. So it's actually kind of cool. >> When we get to verse 21 of chapter 3, >> a hard left turn, right? Or a big book end. And then we get into something else. So let's go and get into the text. So, Romans chapter 3, uh, let's just go ahead and do verses 1 and two. So, uh, Adam, if you'll, uh, read verses 1 and two, and then Jay, I know you're chomping at the bit, so you can start getting into the commentary there. So, go ahead. And you're reading from what version? >> ESV. >> ESV. Let's go. >> Then what then? What advantage has the Jew or what is the value of circumcision? Much in every way to begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God. >> Yeah. So, there's there's a lot packed in right there, you know. Or what is the value? Another word is what is the profit of circumcision? And Jay has just been really excited to talk about circumcision. I saw him earlier in the week at a at a restaurant. And that was like the first thing he said. He's like circumcision. He was just so jacked for it. So I don't want to keep you calling. >> Yeah. I don't want you to keep you waiting any any longer. So ready, set, go. >> So dive into [clears throat] circumcision. That's what you're telling me here. >> Yeah. Go for it. >> Well, okay. So >> put you on the spot. >> Just to kind of riff on what you said a minute ago, basically what you're saying is to understand scripture, you got to understand context. Context is king. That's kind of the first rule of interpretation. So if context is king, we look back to chapter two. We look back to chapter one, not just diet tribes, but huge passages on universal guilt, gentile, Jew, everybody's guilty before God, everybody's a sinner. So coming out of that is then what advantage has the Jew or what benefit is circumcision? Which is basically the same question. Yeah. Um, and really that I think that first question in in uh verse one kind of carries the nine questions there all the way to the end of of verse 8. So there's nine questions as you move through uh this whole passage before we get to uh to to verse 9. But it's kind of the big question. It's kind of the the the the one that that leads into all these other questions that Paul is asking. And I I just it's interesting to me to think about is there an actual interlocator that Paul is engaging here or is he just in his own mind? Is he just is he a good teacher? He knows what the arguments are going to be as he's laid this out. And so he's just kind of firing them off and answering them. Kind of doing this again this diet tribe, this rhetorical questioning approach as he moves through these verses. But yeah, versus versus one has two verse one has two questions and the basic answer is the Jew does have an advantage. >> Yeah, >> the circumcised is uh is is well not not preferred but does have an advantage. >> They're entrusted with the oracles of God and then and not the Philistines, not the Babylonians. >> They were entrusted with the word of God. Like they got the word of God that nobody else got. >> And I love it too because Paul says first of all like he's going to have a long list but he never moves off the [laughter] Yeah, it happens to all of us. >> Yeah. So, he just he just goes first of all. But yeah, >> the picture that's in my head that I had to get to get this straight because I kept getting confused between who's talking like Jay, what you were just talking about. He's asking question who's talking. So, I had to put a picture of like Paul on a rock as if he was preaching this and as if the Jews were on one side and the Gentiles were on the other. And as Paul is saying these things, I I was envisioning the Jews cheering about certain things and then and then the Gentiles cheering about certain things and then he's like, "Oh, yeah. Well, what about this? And so it's like, oh crap, that's not good. So on this part, what I felt like was happening was if you look at the end of of chapter 2, he's talking about circumcision, and he's basically breaking circumcision down, saying that it's, you know, essentially worthless as far as it getting you to salvation. Okay? And so I feel like at this point at the end of chapter 2, I would imagine, or I'm envisioning in my head, the Jews are probably [inaudible] or they're super concerned like, "Wait a minute. we've we've we've held circumcision up to this really high level for so long and you just broke it down. So, I took it from these first two sentences from the perspective of Paul's formerly a Pharisee. He's the guy who knows and understands that the that the Jews are probably super um upset at this point. And so, he's asking a rhetorical question in the mind of what he knows the Jews are assuming. And so, he's like, "Well, what about the advantage of the Jew or what about the value of circumcision?" And he goes on to answer that. But even if the Jew were even with what he's laid out throughout, you know, one and two and the Jew were to come be like, "What's the advantage of circumcision?" Like, "Why did I get circumcised?" He's trying to say circumcision isn't going to save you. But guess what? You were lucky enough to have the oracles of God. God entrusted you with his word >> and gave you his word that he didn't give to anybody else. So, there is still a benefit to circumcision. Well, in the second verse, he's showing a high regard for the Jews as a people, as a as a nation, but also as, you know, showing regard for what is the Old Testament, which, you know, so >> so he's not [clears throat] he's not replacing it. He's not like superseding it. He's he's acknowledging, yes, this this is a good thing. It's good that we did that because the the message of verse one is that, you know, if you put your faith because the the note I wrote down is it's it's almost like verse one is for people who put their faith in baptism or church membership or something like that and that you're going to be disabused of that type of thing throughout all of chapter 3. But I think that that's one of those things cuz I've been informed by people that you're not a Christian until you're baptized. They don't consider, you know, baptism to be a work. Then you have people that are like, I don't really care about, you know, putting my faith in Christ. I'm a member of the local church and I listen to country music. That's good enough. And you know, it's kind of that type of deal. But yeah, verse one tends to disabuse us of that. >> It also mirrors Paul's ministry strategy. So if you know something about Paul's ministry strategy, as he went into a city, he would go to the synagogue first, >> right? >> Go there, preach the gospel to the Jews, get kicked out, take a group of believing Jews who now believe in Christ with him, and then take the message to the Gentiles. So there's a parallel there to how he actually does ministry. I think reading this too like really made me uh look at how how I sit under a good teaching. You know, how lucky are we at Faith Bible to sit under good teaching? Um it it really >> I mean [laughter] >> not every time. I mean >> about 10 times a year we're all left disappointed. >> I I literally I was reading this 10 [laughter] times. >> Okay. >> But oo it's a joke, guys. All right, Ryan, keep it going. >> So uh [clears throat] >> take me off my tangent, man. Hey, how's it feel? How's it freaking feel? All right [laughter] >> I guess I owed that. Um, so, but no, it really made me think when I'm I'm reading this and I'm thinking about all the teaching I've sat under and and and the oracles of God being entrusted and how beautiful his word is and and how it should be portrayed, how the gospel should be portrayed. And then I was like, man, I'm so lucky to be under the teaching that I have that like I finally realized after going to Faith Bible Church for 5 years, I never thank Pastor Mark for his shepherd. Yeah. just the way he shepherds our flock and and teaches our our our uh people, you know. And so it just brought that like it just brought me to a different place because I'm like thinking back about all the teaching that I had before and how like it was just bad teaching. It wasn't it wasn't good. It wasn't it wasn't biblical and I'm sitting under these oracles and then it's like man God's brought me to a place where I can understand the spirit is speaking to me, convicting me when I sit down and I listen to these sermons. Well, and Jay, just, you know, for your sake, you know, Adam, Ryan, and I have discussed this all before. All of us have sat under entertaining teachers. Uh, we've sat under funny teachers. We've sat under teachers that were not going to the text first. And so, for all of us, when you come from some of the churches that we went to, and then you walk into Faith Bible Church and you're just like, oh, like it just it just doesn't feel the same way. like the music. It's not a bunch of you professional atheist musicians with one Christian leading worship, right? It's it's a bunch of volunteers and then Mark's teaching style is very formulaic and you know what you're going to get and you know we're going to be scraping our way through the text. But then this is what I tell people every time I talk about Faith Bible because everyone's very curious about what church I go to. I'm like there are a bunch of kids running around and a bunch of people with gray hair. That should tell you something about the health of the church because there are churches that are really, really young and there's no maturity there. There's churches that are really, really old and those are churches that are about to die. And then there's churches that have both of those things. And you have a bunch of people with their Bibles in their laps open ready to go to hear the word. And it's like we're not looking to be entertained. But I think part of that had to be like trained out of us a little bit cuz you walk in with the expectation of coffee, cookies, and good entertainment. And then you're like, "Oh, we're just talking about the Bible here. This is interesting. >> Yeah, the word is the hero. The way I like to say it >> where where you said we're not looking to be entertained. I've thought about that so many times and I've never been able to put my thumb on exactly what it is and why I'm so enthralled when Jay and Mark are teaching and preaching and why I'm so plugged in versus when I when I if I was to step back out of my body and imagine like what I would have wanted or expected myself to like. It's not that. >> Yeah. No. For some reason, I get completely enthralled in what it is you're choosing to teach on that day. I don't know why. >> It's as if the spirit is involved. >> But I want it to be me. Like I made this decision in my life. >> I chose this free will. We don't have we don't have any free will, right? >> No, but but I mean that makes that makes perfect sense because like I was thinking about that, too. Like, oh, we would leave a church cuz the music wasn't good or we wouldn't we wouldn't like this or we wouldn't like that. And then finally when I learned that the Bible wasn't about me, [laughter] that's when I learned that church isn't about me either. It's about worshiping God. >> There's a bunch of breaking news going down on this podcast right now. >> Like how many guys in our group, it was maybe seven or eight weeks ago and Mark chose to directly address Calvinism and he was going to talk about Calvinism and he he he brought it up at the base. >> What was the text? It was Ephesians. >> Ephesians one verse two verse two, wasn't it? >> It was right at the beginning. And I can remember my daughters are usually there and every now and then they kind of bother me. I looked I looked at my daughters. I was like, "Babe, I love you, but shut up, dude. Do not do not bother me today. I am clued in. >> Somebody's going to catch us straight today babe." >> And then and then we started we started texting like I texted Sam. I texted Kyle. I think we all started texting like, "Oh boy, here we go." >> We were all legitimately excited, ready to hear, "All right, let's go, Mark. Let's hear what you have to say." >> Yeah. No, I was uh I was He [laughter] sent me a text. He's like, "I can only imagine your face." And I was like, >> he was sweaty with excitement down there. Ryan was. >> Yeah. I was like I was like I was like message. [laughter] >> Well, and what's funny about it is the way Mark brings anything up. Nothing's a hammer with Mark. Even even the gospel. Nothing is hammered home. There's no inflection in his delivery. It is just here it is. >> And even afterwards, there were some people from our Sunday school class uh where we were having this discussion. It is it's officially changed, right? We've officially changed it in the bylaws in your mind away from your mind away from all right it is official I heard it here first but that they were like offended like why would Mark say what the Bible says that's weird but it was because it's like anytime somebody is not prevented with presented with Calvinism but anytime somebody starts really reckoning with with what the text says and then tries to surmise the meaning and then it's just like [clears throat] okay there's what I thought it said and then I read it and it didn't quite say that. Shoot. >> If someone was offended, perhaps they should have already read the bylaws because it's pretty clear. >> If somebody was offended from our class, that means I'm not doing my job. >> First of all, true. [laughter] And if they're offended, we need to put them under church discipline. Jay, I mean, do we need to send some names? I'll make referrals. >> No, but we I think what you're saying is there's a word here. There's a couple of words in this passage that some guys would just skip over. >> Yeah. They don't like them. >> Predestination, election, fornowledge, whatever. But you're actually going to get the full meaning of this word. You might even get two or three different interpretations of it. Oh, and here's the one that I I think is true, but it's never like a mic drop. >> Yeah. You know, >> well, I remember back when um in Sunday school, this wasn't a dueling uh debate, but on one week, who went first >> on Calvinism, Armenianism? >> I don't know. I can't remember. Did you go first on Armenianism? I went first because you came to approach me. You're like, I'm going to do Armenianism. You want to do Calvinism? >> So, Jay does Jay Jay does not know this, but let's go let's go ahead and preface this. So, so Jay knows. So we uh I I am a lifelong Armenian. Has always been the way I just have always believed things to be. >> Baylor grad. >> Yes. Until >> How' you know? >> Until I feel I feel like maybe about six probably about six months ago, I'm starting to I'm on the struggle bus. I'm on the Armenian struggle bus. And so anyway, a couple years ago, we did an Armenian versus It was going to be a debate, but then >> three or four years ago, >> it was a while ago, but but I knew what the church's stance was on it. And I was like, I cannot get in front of this group and I I can't do a debate because I can't make it seem like I'm winning cuz that is not okay. That's >> You wouldn't have won any cocky [laughter] [inaudible]. Hush your butt. Let him push. I could I couldn't have felt like I cuz that wouldn't have been right. So instead, it was more of anformational here's what this side believes, which I feel like is okay as long as I'm not professing like this is what you should believe. And then Ryan did the Calvinism sign. And if you've listened to this podcast, we've gone back and forth. We've gone back and forth se several times. And so >> you you sent Ryan almost into retirement. Sammy, I was so mad that day. You should have been. I heard I remember this story. I had to talk to >> He put himself in church discipline. >> I put myself in church discipline. Had to repent to you. >> I feel like the only That's true. But I think [laughter] the big the big reason for that was because we started teaming up and that's what was not cool about that is and it was not intentional, but we all started going up. But anyway, >> and honestly, even in that passage, I like if you look at my notes, I didn't even like I try not to bring Calvinism to every conversation. >> Not true. >> That's Come on. What? >> What? No. So, I didn't have any notes in Calvinism, so you guys kind of blindsided me on that one. >> And so, I was just like, "Oh, man." And I go back, I went back and listened to it, >> you know, um it brings me down a level every time I listen to it cuz it's like I could see I could hear myself getting into the flesh. I was getting angry. >> Well, I will say the the the kernel that is causing a change in me is honestly Romans 1:18 and then Romans 3 all the way through 20 and then seven and eight. There's more. There's more that gets there, but the total depravity is my problem now. That's where you and that's the thing. It's like once I get on the total depravity train, I'm like >> I can't support the other side anymore. >> Your anthropology dictates your sotiology. >> I don't know what those words mean. >> Anthropology study of life. >> I'm okay with my butt getting eaten out by a grizzly bear. So those words are too big. >> This just took a turn, didn't it? >> But [laughter] but regardless of that, >> had to sayology. >> I do. It it does seem like the more the more I read and I connect the dots like total depravity seems to make sense and I'm like crap if that makes sense where else does that lead me and I I start going down this road. >> Oh I'm sorry. No go ahead. Go ahead. >> I'm just like and and this is like even I as a person who who adamantly believes in in um predestination and the soterology of you know God how one is saved. >> How one is saved. I still deal with questions, you know, like I dealt with limited atonement >> and I still deal with a little bit of limited atonement. Not as much as I do. Is >> that the one Mark gets hung up with? Mark is four point. So limited atonement I get hung up on. And then also um um undeniable >> irresistible grace. >> Irresist irresistible grace. That one's been getting me lately. And so um I I will never go to the Armenian side. I just because of total depravity. You say before that all five rely on each other and it's difficult to get on the road and to not be able to like knock all five of them down. >> Yeah. You can't knock them all down and one always leads you to another. Yes. >> But then you always I like Mark said it best. Sometimes it's a mystery. >> And that's what he said. >> It's a mystery. >> He said he was quoting a Puritan preacher that would just step back from the text and just say mystery mystery. But Jay, what would probably be prudent at this point is just >> um a lot of faith Biblers listen to this. [laughter] It's a problem. Uh we we'll say that they they hear other things that I say on this show. Uh but um to clarify the church's position on tulip. Uh just because you know Marcus said he'll say you know hey I'm a fourpoint kind of tuliper or four and a half or something like that. But where where do we sit just so people know what they're sitting under? >> Are we are we jumping the gun on this? Because we're probably going to get into this in let's pause. Let's actually continue in the text. Who read? You did. So Ryan uh yeah I can read. Let's do three and four. Verses 3 and 4 of chapter 3. What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithfulness nullify the faithfulness of God? By no means. Let God be true through everyone where a liar as it is written that you may be justified in your words and prevail when they when you are judged. Okay. So, I I had a confusing notes. I was hoping y'all could clear this up for me. I saw a couple of different commentaries. One was pointing to Psalm 51 and one was pointing to Psalm 50. >> 51 verse4 is the set off section there. >> Okay. Because in you know 51 vers4 this is David writing this after Nathan confronted him about Basheba. So that made more sense to me. But then I saw the the ESV expository commentary expository commentary said 50:6 and then I got confused. >> That is confusing. >> Okay. All right. So shout out to Crossway for messing up [laughter] my Bible study. >> What's what's amazing about verse three? So, not only were they entrusted with the oracles of God, they were entrusted with God. >> Yeah. >> The faithfulness of God. So, obviously, we all have a high view of scripture and we just rift on it for 15 or 20 minutes, but what they've been given is the covenants, God himself. And I I just think that's that's like a double down on um on their their privilege position. >> And that's and and and it [clears throat] I've been so I've been listening to uh first and second Kings. Uh, I try to get I try to get other Bible reading in that's not pertain to me teaching or doing something. And when I read that passage and I hear what you said, it's like it's so hard to look at the Jews in first and second Kings and just watch the fall of like God's covenant for them that they just go and they start worshiping other gods. And it all started with Solomon. And there they were entrusted with this. They saw God. God gave them these covenants and they all just stopped listening. And it just kind of like it just kind of and there's something else I would want to go into, but like yeah, it just kind of uh just like blows my mind a little bit. >> Any Christian that would say, "Well, I like the New Testament God and not the Old Testament God >> has never read the Old Testament [laughter] >> because the patience, the forbearance, I mean the the when you actually read the Old Testament and you just see how depraved these people are, how dark their hearts are, how willing and and ready they are to run from God. You're like, golly, he's so patient. I haven't read the entirety of the New Testament either because the New Testament God in certain places seems real judgy and meany pants. You know what I mean? >> And and because of that, I think you can see that if you read this from the perspective of these questions are being asked as if it was from a Jews mindset because their head is spinning at this point as they're reading this. Their world has been turned upside down. Like, well, >> what if some were unfaithful? Because they were the ones that were given the blessing. They were God's chosen people. So now they're like, "Well, if we were unfaithful, all of the ones before us, are is everybody in hell now? Is everybody damned? Is uh how how do we how do we get there?" And we're going to get to that at some point. >> I don't I don't even look at it that way, too. I look at it kind of in our in our terms now, like exangelicals, you know? It's like they they'll take the faith and just deny it all, Bible, and everything because of a few fallen or a few faithless. Like they don't they don't >> they're attaching the truth of the word to >> It's just like uh who was it? Is it Turk that always said like you bring it up all the time? >> You don't if somebody Yeah. If somebody's in guitar center playing a Guns and Roses song and they're doing it poorly, you don't blame Slash for that. Yeah. Like you know, if you're playing Beethoven and you're doing it poorly, you don't blame >> Beethoven. And that's the thing is like when we look at this, it's like what if so what if some people were unfaithful? >> No means God, you know, uh that doesn't by no means does God >> not be true. >> But yeah, it's question there. If the second part of this is mission critical, does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? That's what they're worried about. They're I know, but that's what they're from the Jews perspective, the world has just been turned upside down. Yeah. >> And they're like, "Oh, crap." Well, >> go ahead. >> Does Does that diminish, you know, God's promise? >> Well, that's the thing, too, is like, so I'm going over the prophets with my kids, and we went over Jeremiah today, uh, during breakfast, and Jeremiah is like, you know, considered the weeping prophet. Um, and he's like talking to the Jews and he's like, "Hey, God's going to bring this down, but like he's he's trying to be patient. He still loves you. He's trying to do all this stuff. Like even when they finally uh Nebuchadnezzar came in, tore everything down, there were still people left in Judah and uh um Jeremiah was there in Judah and they were like, "Hey man, we need to go off. We need to go off to Egypt." And they're like, "No." Like like, "Well, can can you talk to God? Talk to God for us." And God's like, "Don't go to Egypt. stay in Judah. I will make sure you guys are taken care of. You guys will make it through this whole thing. If you stay in Judah, nobody will be hurt. Nobody will be diseased or anything. And Jeremiah goes and relays the message that the people asked to reach out to God about. And they're like, "No, you're lying. We need to go to Egypt." And they they kidnap the dude and take him to Egypt. >> It's just like it's just like you see the unfaithfulness. And that's the point that's the point of quoting 51 verse Psalm 51 verse4 is like you want an example on unfaithfulness but God's being but but God being faithful. Let's look at Psalm 51. >> Psalm 51:4 is against you, you only have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight so that you may be justified in your words and blame blameless in your judgment. Um let's [clears throat] go ahead and Adam if you will read 5 through8 and then we'll we'll park on we'll park on the rest of these verses. But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteous of God, righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us, I speak in a human way, by no means. For then how could God judge the world? But if through my lie, God's truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? And why not do evil that good may come? As some people slanderously charge us with saying, their condemnation is just. So, one thing uh and then get back into your point, Ryan. I [clears throat] think this entire section >> people will accuse Paul of antinomianism. I think is I'm I'm saying it right, which is essentially Jay, you can correct me if I'm wrong, just going from memory here, but anti-nomianism is basically they're saying, you know, you don't have to follow the law at all. Like, it's it's basically cheap grace to to a degree, but it's like, hey, yeah, Paul's basically saying the law, nobody cares. Like, it doesn't matter anymore. You just can't do an honest read of the scripture and come to that conclusion. But he is, especially with verses 5 through8, which Adam just read, that's what a lot of people go through. But like he he's about to use the Old Testament to show us that none of us are righteous. And so it's like what? That's the problem whenever you take a chunk of scripture and you take it out of context of the entirety of the narrative, >> which is what I was talking about earlier where I've struggled as I've been studying through Romans. I'm like, "Oh, shoot. I just read that and I forgot it already." >> Mhm. >> But yeah, either one of y'all want to continue on. >> I'm going to let you go, Jay. Well, just on [clears throat] the anti-nominism thing, you nomos means law, anti- against, against law. So, people have this view that, okay, I can I can just live free of law, free of restraint however I want. [clears throat] And obviously, there's freedom uh in knowing Christ. There's freedom to to do certain things. There's freedom to not do certain things because we're free from the law. Uh but we're also filled with the spirit. Uh and there's plenty of commands in the New Testament that have an urgency about obedience and godliness and holiness and all these things that we want to strive toward and being stable and steadfast. So we we really can't adopt some view that says ah you know standards be damned >> very dismissive >> I can just live however I want but go ahead >> hedonism sounds yeah >> but I think what's interesting about these these objections in the passage Adam just read is that there's a bit of a turn in that these are seem more insincere. It's like if the if the argument turned sort of slick, it would be leading to these kinds of questions. Like just trying to kind of play got you or gotcha with reason uh is is the way the passage sort of turns in these next few questions. >> I think like if if we look back at David's actual words and we go back to the psalm like we're seeing true repentance from David. >> Yeah. >> And and with like you said with these actions before that what they're going through doesn't seem like true repentance. It's like, hey, I really, it's like me. What I think I talked about on the last episode, like, yeah, I became a Christian and but I was still drinking and partying and doing drugs and doing stupid stuff. And I'm like, this is just who I am. You know, God God has grace for me, blah blah blah blah blah. It's like, no, I'm not truly repentant of how I live and who I am and what God wants me to do and turn from. And so, I that's where I would aptitude uh uh cheap grace to it. But like, can we all come to the cross and can we all come to God with the repentance that David had after he was called out by Nathan? Like I I mean, I would love to see that out of more people, especially myself. >> Well, and I think as well, you know, if you go back to verses five and six, like, you know, I think a great question to ask most people that make any moral proclamation is by what standard or to what authority do you appeal? Okay. So when you look at verses 5 and 6, the standard by which to judge sin, the only reason we have one of those is because of God, because of the word that was re revealed and written down and passed down orally and in written uh written cases as well. And so I think again it it [clears throat] becomes problematic and and I think we've all been guilty of this at one time or another of bumper sticker theology where we take a you know something that sounds good and we take something out of Jeremiah or we take something out of the Psalms and we just want to apply it to our life because it makes us feel good when we read it when we're sipping our coffee. But we have to look at the entirety of not only what has Paul done up to this point, but where he what he's doing. And also, I'm constantly having to remind myself that this is a letter. This is a letter, right? We just got a letter. And so, and the thing is is it's not it wasn't in chapter form. It wasn't in verse form. It wasn't meant to be read in chunks and like, okay, we're going to come back after lunch and we're going to do a few more of these. It was meant to read from front to to back. So, think of it like a TV show or a movie or something like that. You're feeling the waves of emotion. So if you're a Gentile at times you're like, "Oh boy, he's really getting after us." Then he's getting after the Jews and you're like, "Yeah, get him." Well, it flips and you're getting to feel all the bumps of that narrative the entire way. And so that I guess is my commercial and encouragement for guys like as we're studying Romans, see if you can take the time to sit down and just read Romans straight through like once a month or something like that so you can still start seeing some of the signposts along along the way. >> I think one thing that really like kind of upset me about reading this is like, you know, that term nuanced is used a lot. It's one of my favorite words. Yeah. Let's just nuance everything. >> And like it's like I can see like like good and evil are binary, >> you know? Like I know people don't like that word nowadays, but there's good and there's evil. There's no nuanced in between good and evil. And so like I feel like with this with this verse, like people like to take that and bring like, oh, this is a nuanced approach. We don't know all this. It's like, no, there's good and there's evil. There's black and there's white. And sometimes we have to look at that and we have to call it out, you know? And I think it also demonstrates just how performance and worksbased the Jewish listener Jewish listener was because it's like okay there's no real spiritual life there. So it's all about what I do. So you're saying if I sin and that actually that contrast in my unrighteousness and God's righteousness highlights and glorifies him in a profound way. Then I can >> what if I just keep sinning? Wouldn't that make God's glory all the greater? >> Well, yeah. That sounds like a pretty good arrangement. That's what we And so obviously Paul's shutting that down. >> When you go back to Romans 1, he's like, "This is what we do." Like as sinful like doofuses or doofi. I can't remember what the plural of doofus is. But that's what we do. Like we're always going to twist ourselves in the pretzel to try to get back to where we can say, "Well, no, no, no. My flavor of sin's okay. My flavor of sins is actually fine." which you know exangelicals or deconstructionists or those types of people that's the center point is I have a pet sin and I don't want to be judged for it anymore so I'm going to make the tent even bigger >> and if you do judge me for it what about this guy and what about that guy and what about this guy and it's just like no that's where it's like for us Christians like if we see sin we need to call out sin we can't be we can't be nuanced about sin whether it's a sin we don't think is that big of a deal or we do or not sin is sin >> and to support that even further about not being nuanced I mean what happens in Romans Romans 1 1-17, Paul's happy and excited and I've been waiting to get you this. I've been trying to come to you. And then verse 18, drop the freaking hammer. [clears throat] >> Immediate. I mean, I remember reading a couple months ago and it just reminded me like, oh my gosh, immediate hammer right at the first of the first chapter. Yeah. >> You know, tearing tearing us down. >> But it also I think we've all probably sinned in some way that God ultimately used for good, >> right? Kind of a Joseph moment. In all of our lives, we've sinned in some way that God ultimately used for good. That but what he's saying here is that still doesn't mean you shouldn't grieve that sin. >> Yeah. >> What's the macarthurism to where it's like the the further you are along your sanctification journey, the more brokenhearted you are at your depravity. It you don't become cockier as you go cuz you're like, I'm elect. I'm in the team ba. Like you're like, oh my gosh, how me or me? God, you chose this. That's that's like when you guys are like I'm always cockure about Calvinism or whatever. It's not that I'm cockure about it. It's just I'm blown away that God chose me because like dude I'll be sitting there mowing my lawn or doing something and I'll think back about my past and the things that I did and I'm like God I owe that person an apology. I owe that person an apology. Like why was I that why was I like that? Why was I that way? >> And that makes sense. But in the and to continue it's like I continue to go back to some of those same problems. Some of those same problems continue to recur. same same bad thoughts, same bad habits. >> Well, the last uh um the last sermon from our church, we talked about forbearance and patience. >> And man, I was really called out on that one cuz like I I lacked that. And like I was uh I was in Tulsa for an event and uh this guy was parked in a one lane area and usually I'd be slamming on my horn like get out of the way blah blah blah. Yeah. You know, you know, I just sat there. >> This dude tried to fight me. He didn't know it was me, but he was parking like a a particular type of person of a particular gender. And I just started to honk the horn behind him and he's rolling his window down to give me what for. And I'm like, he didn't know it was me. He was ready to get in a fist fight because I uh because I honked my horn out. >> Yeah. But no, I just sat there with a smile and when the guy finally came out and said, "Hey, thanks." You know, like I'm I'm learning to have forbearance. I'm learning to have patience. And it's it's a continu continuous thing to be sanctified by the Lord. Well, we are proud of you, Ryan, for every where you're going. But hey, t-shirt idea. If everybody at the forging table eventually becomes Calvinist, maybe we can sell cockshure t-shirts. It'll just say cockure across front. Or maybe we'll do like a little like little graphic of a fighting [ __ ] with a with just the word sure next to it. We'll just work with that. What do you think? Bumper stickers. >> Maybe maybe holding a bundle of tulips. >> I don't know. CC cockure calendar tulips. [laughter] And then we'll just put a Christmas tree cake on the sleeve just for no reason. But guys, appreciate the discussion. But uh come back here next week where we are going to be digging in to chapter 3 again starting in verse 9. Romans chapter 3:9. But before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost. Add anodontal to life mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Few resources for you. We have the crossway starter set. So there's a forging table starter set. There's five amazing books that you can get them all at a 50% discount. Check out the details in the show notes. The Logos Bible Software, which has been mentioned at the table quite a bit. You should use that. It's the best Bible software on the planet. But don't use it at full price. Use it as as a discount. It is in the show notes as well. And also, we're a donation based ministry. If you're wondering how we can, you know, get tables and lights and microphones and keep all the electricity running, it's cuz we have guys just like you giving 20 bucks a month, $1,000 one time, hundred bucks a month to make sure we can continue to equipment around the globe to push back darkness. So, hop on board and be a donor. Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive fivestar review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast or shoot me an email to info@undanton.life, that's info@undantton.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www.undton.life. And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is their song Perpetual, which is off their self-titled debut album on Faceown Records. The links are in the description. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the Lion of Judah. [music]