This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. Welcome back to the forging table. The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience at the forging table. You'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience by digging into God's word. And we're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with us. Why was there assault on the forging table? For any of y'all just listening to this, it may have sounded like there was a little fight going on. It's cuz there was because you got fired last week, Browning, from the timer. And Dean, you were the new guy. >> I thought he said he was going to do it. >> Yeah. And then I said, "No, we need a different arm coming out of the bullpin." Right. We need a middle reliever that we can rely on to get the 78 N guy out so that we don't roll around to the top of the lineup. Right. >> I'm embarrassed. >> I feel like they're using that product in that commercial Dan talked about last week. >> Yeah. Are y'all on Are y'all on the weed right now? Is that what's happening? >> I wanted to get serious this week to go right into the scripture, but now it's just like I'm mad. Like my my blood pressure is up. Like my heart rate's up according to my fancy watch. >> I'm pretty sure I got welps. >> Yeah. Yeah. I got a little excited. looked at me like, >> "Dude, why did you just slug me? You okay?" >> I'm fine. I'm sorry. I let I let everybody down >> for next week. Do you think am I just going to have to go to my one reliever that I can, you know, maybe >> it's going to be the hot button. Whoever hits it first. >> I mean, I really feel like we like last week we talked about the, you know, judging and you do the same. And I was I was lambasting Eric like, "Oh man, you're terrible at this." >> That's right. >> Yeah. Well, I had grace. I was getting grace was extended to me. I did not. >> You're acting real Jewish right now. Is that what you're saying? Well, is that what's happening? I've I've been accused of that. >> Let's be careful. Let's be careful with how far we go. Well, hey, uh last week we spent the entire time Well, we had some fun. We tried to sing in reverse. It didn't go well uh for most of us, but uh we talked about chapter 2 verse 1. And we're going to go ahead and get into chapter 2:es 2-4. So, Browning, if you can read Romans chapter 2:es 2-4 and let everybody know what version you're reading out of. Looks like ESV. >> ESV. >> All right. >> Yep. 2 through 4. >> 2 through 4. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, oh man, you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? >> So as we see here, we see, oh man, again, so that's again a call back. That's a a common way to address each other between Jews. And I mean, gosh, if you're reading or I guess if you're listening to, you know, verses 118 through32, you might think that you're not as bad as the people that are described in chapter 1. Uh, but verse three right here shows you that, you know, they are bad like that. There's there's really no escape from from this. And then we work our way into chapter 4. But yeah, let's go ahead and discuss this chunk here, 2 through 4. Well, you know, we said in the last one that all of this that, you know, chapters one and two and then into three are just are just laying out the case of why we need the gospel. But I feel like when I read this, I really felt like our world does a good job of trying to like from a worldly perspective trying to make us feel better uh in the midst of us feeling bad. meaning like we judge other people and if someone else is doing worse well then hey I'm not doing so I'm not doing so bad by comparison right so we feel a little bit better and and over time we can kind of suppress those things we can suppress greed and selfishness and we can suppress arrogance and we kind of just come like we resign ourselves to the fact that hey nobody's perfect and I'm part of nobody but I'm not I'm not the worst so I'm not doing that had. Um, and I remember when I was in, uh, when I was in probably 8th grade, uh, I heard a talk at our church, um, and he was talking about he had this like gold nugget and it was really dirty on the outside, you know, cuz I'm sure he had mashed it in dirt or something. And so he he cleaned the outside of it really well, you know, he took he washed it off, then he took fire and he burned all the things on the outside of it. And so it had the appearance that it was great, that it was gold, and that there w wasn't anything wrong with it. And you know, then he goes on to talk about, well, there are impurities inside that we can't see. We've done a really good job of cleaning up the outside and making the outside look good. But the reality is is like that same junk that I cleaned off the outside is actually like all throughout the inside of this gold. And so you you you got to you in order, you know, the sanctification process requires that we turn up the heat, so to speak, and that we release those things that we've suppressed over time, that we make ourselves vulnerable to acknowledging that we even have those things in our past. Right? So, it's like all of those things that he said in the end of chapter one, like I read those and it's this laundry list of garbage that represents me, right? That's me apart from Jesus. Um, and so it it's it's not just about this how do we look, how do we stand up against other people in the world, but like really what are the hard issues that we need to have bubble to the surface? And and I feel like uh Romans chapter 2 really starts to kind of help get those things suppressed. Those suppressed inequities are kind of bubbling up even if it's painful to do so. >> Yeah, I was thinking I was thinking about like the uh maybe it's been mentioned recently, but just we can let Jesus into our house and Jesus can have rain over most of our house with that closet in the in the hallway. We don't want him to go there. It's like we'll give you a lot of stuff and we'll make it look really good. And we might we must spend a lot of time cleaning even so that it looks and has the appearance uh that that we're good, but that closet you need to stay out of. You know, we we're not willing to let Jesus get there. Well, the list I mean bears repeating going back to the list at the end of chapter 1 starting in verse 29. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness evil covetousness malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, hotty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. And then we get to 32, which is the hammer. Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them, but give approval to those who practice them. And so, it's like, if you didn't get caught up somewhere in that drag net, >> Yeah. >> Sorry, I don't think you're being real with yourself. it. I look at it as a two-sided coin right now. Um I I think last week I talked a lot about like, hey, we can have people that are are uh going after certain sexual ethic or certain things and then in the in the shadows looking at pornography. But I feel like this brought to me what Von Hoffer calls cheap grace and how and this is this is something I actually went through. There was a church I was going to um and I was uh uh filled with the spirit, went with, you know, went to the bottom, gave my life to Christ, got baptized a few weeks later, and I was still living on that cheap grace. And the fact that I'm like, hey, I was still partying. I was still doing drugs with friends, drinking copious amount of alcohol, uh and doing, um trying to hook up with girls. And somebody asked me, you know, nobody really asked me or really kind of like challenged me, but they were just like, "Man, you say you're a Christian. Why are you doing this?" I was like, "Well, this is who I am. You know, God loves me for who I am. This is why he died on the cross so I can be who I want to be." And then I go back and you read something like we read in four where he says, "Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to what? >> Repent. >> Repentance. >> I was not repentant of my old life." >> And so we we we see we see people who want to talk about sin but in the shadows are sinning. And then we want to go ahead and we see churches out there who don't even want to bring people to repentance. They want to love them for who they are and say that God loves them for who they are and that what they're they're living in right now is who they are. And this church that I went to didn't say that to me. But because of the culture and because of like what we live in now, that's what I took. I took cheap grace. And so now what Paul's talking about is that cheap grace. He's like, "Hey, you can presume of all his riches and kindness, you know, but they're to lead you to repentance. You can't live that way anymore. There's a reason why you need to change your mind. Repent." Um, and so that's what that really brought out to me was like, man, like I at that time would not actually repent of my foolish and sinful life. I wanted to be known by my sin and be okay with my sin and that God was okay with my sin rather than change to what he thinks is righteous and how I should live my life for him, not just through his cheap grace. >> Well, the cheap grace thing and then this kind of goes back to the seeker sensitive movement which we've discussed at this table as well is it's kind of like the pitch is not Jesus is your everything. You put all of your faith into him. you transfer it from yourself into him and he will cover all of your sin debt. And the pitch almost comes off sounding like, "Hey, you got some gaps in your life. You got some area, you got some pain points >> and Jesus, he's going to fill those gaps." And you know, Jesus loves you, right? But here's the thing is if Jesus loves you just the way that you are, then why didn't he need to die on a cross for your sins? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. And so I think that's this this whole mindset now with this, you know, and again I I I am picking on the the secret sensitive model because it's like they're trying to soften and make the gospel sweeter at the same time as opposed to describing it accurately and letting letting the good news and the spirit of God the the the Holy Spirit penetrate the heart of the unrepentant believer. >> Imagine seeker sensitive church starting off the way Paul starts off in Romans. This is not going to happen. Yeah, it's not going to happen. >> It's like you might as well let off a stink bomb inside. >> Yeah. I mean, go I mean, I brought it up last week and Joby, you know, called me out my ferrisleness. Uh, if that's even a word. Sorry, Joby. >> Sorry, Joby. >> But look at look at he gets us. He gets us isn't about the seeker because he gets us doesn't start out with the way that Paul would start out here in Romans. you know, if anything, they're trying they're trying to be more of like I would say the beginning of chapter 2 in Romans, you know, towards Christians, but it's not really a model towards trying to bring people in who don't know who Christ is. It's more of a model, I feel like, and I could be totally wrong. >> Well, it's actually the opposite. If you hear them describe it or if you hear people that are are pitching He Gets Us to people, because I have I still have issues with He Gets Us. Yeah. Because what they would say is to the Christian, right? to to the person that's been a Christian forever, the person that's reading theology textbooks and having, you know, theology debates, you know, with a scotch in one hand and a cigar in the other as they, you know, wax their mustache. He's like, "This is not for you. We want the non-believer. We want the Christ curious person." And so, I don't want to get too far off on a tangent on he gets us, but that's the problem with their approach is >> you have to go seven steps in and you still don't get >> I don't see this approach. I don't see this approach of of calling people to why they need Christ. If anything, it shows, hey, Christ loves you at where you're at. And they're not trying to bring bring any change. And like here's what Paul's trying to do. He's trying to show you why you need Christ. And when I watch those commercials, I don't if if I'm looking at as somebody who needs Christ, I'm not seeing where I need Christ. Do I feel convicted sometimes as a Christian watching those commercials? Absolutely I do sometimes because I feel like we can come across unloving, >> you know, and and and not coming beside people and helping them sanctify themselves. And that's something, you know, I had to work on as a person. So, I I I can get I get that part from the commercials and if that's what they're trying to do, that part's working. But when it comes to a non-believer trying to find out who Christ is, they are not taking this route at Just real quick, I want Dan and um Browning to hop in here, but for those of you that don't have any idea what we're talking about, so He Gets us is an organization that spends millions of dollars on ad campaigns um to get people to go to their website, he gets us.com, but Ryan and I kind of went down the rabbit hole and we're like, "Okay, let's just pretend like we're non-believers and let's see." Cuz if you go to the to go to the website He Gets us, we click through the entire website. There is no gospel call. There's no clear expression of the gospel on the website anywhere. It's like, okay, well maybe what's the CTA? like what's the call to action here? What's the thing they actually want us to do? And then okay, so we go to this group. So I signed up for like this group that did these three sessions over a few weeks and it was kind of like a group therapy session where again the gospel was never proclaimed nor preached or explained in any way, shape or form. And again, it was very much so this, hey, Jesus is a gap filler as opposed to, you know, the lamb of God that was sent here to be killed for your sin debt to provide propitiation for your sin debt so that you can be before a holy and just father. And so, uh, that that was kind of my issue. And I think that comes back to this as well because if you have that cheap grace mindset, then maybe you're one of those people that raised their hand, came down front, got baptized a few weeks later, and then there's no there's if you start judging the fruit and if you start judging the sanctification process, you're like, there is no transformation, which is the word you used last week, Brown. He's like, there's there's no transformation here. And so, yeah, I think it's very very problematic. Well, in chapter or I'm sorry, in verse four, riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience. That's really easy to sell. >> Who doesn't want who doesn't want that? Who's not going to tap into that? >> But right before that, God really Paul Paul writes God has two responses to sin. >> Kindness and judgment. Okay? So, because God is just and God is merciful. So, like with a parent, like if I'm getting ready to hold my kids accountable for something and I like Paul says earlier where we are without excuse and if I tell my kids they know the deal, you came home after curfew, you did something that did not meet the expectations that were known to you to exist. What comes after that? They they don't have any excuses because they knew what was going on. Well, what comes after that is typically correction, you know, probably discipline of some sort. there's there's consequences for them and they're without excuse, right? Um but thank goodness that you know God also has riches and kindness. So if imagine if God was only just and we got what we deserved. >> Yeah. We wouldn't like that. >> And churches would be empty, right? Like I mean, but you can't just build the gospel on God's riches in kindness because he is both merciful and just. >> And if Jesus is just the gap filler, then it provides a lane for the self-righteous, right? The people who are self-righteous to be like, "Hey, I'm good to go. I'm squared away." Uh because, you know, I believe in God. I just don't have any use for him, right? So Jesus, thank you for filling all the gaps in my life and making me feel good uh periodically, but ultimately there there's no overall change. >> Yeah. I I've just been sitting here thinking over and over that the the way to transformation is through godly sorrow. You know, I was uh pulled up 2 Corinthians 7:11. It says this, "Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret. But worldly sorrow brings death." So when I think about like my kids, like I try to teach them like they go, you know, one of my boys hurts my little girl's feelings. He doesn't understand cuz he was like, you know, we do this with the other guys all the time. we say these things, it's not a big deal. Uh, and I tell him, I say, "Look, you know, people take things differently or whatever. You you need to go apologize, right? So, think it through. Go apologize." It's real easy for him to just go do what I asked him to do and to apologize and go down the road. And yes, that does satisfy what I was asking him to do, but did that really bring sorrow? Did he feel did he actually feel bad about that? I don't know necessarily. But I feel like what we do is we get to you like in accountability groups, you know, we'll get you get together and you share what you have been wrestling with or whatever. And it's easy just to pat the guy on the back and be like, "Thank you so much for sharing that. I know that was very difficult to say whatever, you know, but we're praying for you and then just leave it leave it there." And maybe maybe there's not a whole lot else you can do after that, right? But but if we're, you know, if we're not coming alongside and helping that guy take the next step of how does he not do this the next week, the next week, the next, we can just start saying the same thing and eventually drop the group or whatever, then um you know, I feel like we're they're missing the mark and when maybe we're not helping them ma hit the mark because we've got to get to a point where you have godly sorrow and that and godly sorrow means you hit a certain level of rock bottom on that and you're just like, uh, this is not what God wants for me there's something better and it's not me necessarily putting another filter on my computer per se even though that might be what I need. I need to fill my life with Christ in that area rather than try to fill it with something that's medicating me >> when I So one thing that you're alluding to and you know sometimes it's it's good to get into the anecdotes because you know Ryan you talked about last week with you know feeling like Joby was calling you out for your fer pheriseical nature towards things which which was positive but another thing that you're kind of bringing up is guys that's again that the language they use is they struggle with porn and so here's the problems with that and some of you have heard me talk about this before where we we get new listeners every week and We're very thankful for you. But if you actually struggled, you would have had more victory by this point. Because what does it take to have victory? Struggle. Right? So when someone's like, "Oh, I've really struggled with my weight." It's like, "Well, tell me what you've been doing." And they describe eating whatever they want and not exercising. It's like, "Sounds like there hasn't been enough struggle yet." Right? So it seems like we need some more struggle. And when they say, "Hey, I struggle with porn." It's like, "No, you don't struggle with porn. Like you have a masturbation problem." Now the the problem's even further upstream than that. I mean, Eric, you just, you know, alluded to that. You have a masturbation problem because you're not watching porn without using it as a masturbatory aid. So, we have to identify the the real reason that we're even talking right now. But for a lot of men, I'll put it this way. Joby was talking to somebody about their marriage, right? I was listening to him give this advice and this couple's trying to figure out what they need to do. Like, hey, do we need different counselors? Do we need to go on like an intensive? do we need, you know, just to to sit down and like maybe go on a bunch of dates and, you know, see what kind of things we can do to get to know each other again, you know, that kind of thing. And Joby asked this couple, he goes, "Do y'all love each other? Do do y'all love each other?" It kind of like, you know, slammed this conversation like pretty pretty like slammed on the brakes pretty fast. It's like, "Wait, what?" It's like, "Wait, do y'all do y'all love each other?" Like, "I don't I don't even care about do you like each other? I don't even care about all that. Cuz he's like, as pro I am about, you know, retreats and and conferences and marriage books and all that, all that's just tips and tricks, right? Do you love each other? So, going back to the example with somebody that's struggling with pornography, you know, that's not that's giving into masturbation. It's like, dude, what are we doing here? Right? I'm so tired of these men's groups where it's like, hey, my goal for the next week is to not jerk off. It's like, really? How about we set a standard that is better than a goal? Whereas for the sake of Christ, I'm not going to self-medicate in this way. Yeah. And then you don't need the filter even though I'm not anti- filter. You don't need the accountability group to, you know, give them an update on your thought life, even though those are good things as well. It's getting to the heart of the matter, which is actual our actual depravity. But we have we have this soft approach simply to to everything. And we never give anybody like any way to get on the harder road that's going to lead to actual repentance and life change. >> You just brought up a big word, soft approach. Yeah. And I think this goes back, I don't know if it was week six or week seven. I think it was you, Russell, Adam Thomas, and u Jake Winkler. We're talking about >> Adam Thomas. >> Adam Smith. Sorry. There's a guy you used to >> shout out to Adam Thomas, man. We thank you. Thanks for being here. >> There was an Adam Thomas I used to work with, so that's why. Yeah, >> we don't like him. Adam Smith. Yeah. >> No, Adam Smith. We love Adam Smith. Um, you guys were talking about how the gospel is watered down. How uh the gospel has just been turned over to God's love. It's watered down. It's love is all that there is and there's no just. And like when I'm reading this, I actually wrote this down in my in my note. It says, "How many people say God is love?" Like how many times like back in the day when I would want to argue with people on Facebook about a certain topic or something like that, do you always have the person, well, God is love, you know? God is love. God is love. And it's just like, yeah, God is love. That's one action of God. But how many times in the gospel now that when we're preaching this watered down gospel that we over we overemphasize God's love over his truth. >> And that's what Paul's getting at here. He's trying to say you guys have turned something else into something and have moved away from the truth. And those people who throw out the God is love all the time because they don't like a certain passage or they want to go ahead and let somebody live their life in forbearance and patience of God deal uh not dealing with his kindness but living by his kindness rather than actually repenting and turn around. You know, they'll say God is love. God is love. And it's like >> which begs the question, what does love require of the believer? >> What when they see their brother in sin? What does love require? But what is Joby asking that couple? Not do they love each other. Do you have this feeling of love for each other? Would you actually love your wife? Would you actually do something? >> Yeah. >> And an action to show your love for her. Like you can go and do these things and go on these dates, but if you don't want to die for that person or you don't want to go and do the hard work for that person or sacrifice for that person, what's the point? >> Yeah. Because ultimately a just judge, right? Which is what we all want in theory. Like a a just judge is one that judges righteously. Okay. But to what authority would this judge be appealing to because that that matters as well because you don't want to be a just judge based on unequal weights and measures. Like that's not really something that we want to do. And so if you appeal to the authority of the Bible, if you appeal to the authority of capital T truth, that's what we want a just judge to be tethered to. And I'm I'm pretty sure I'm remembering the story correctly, but I remember the great RC Sproul, I think this was back whenever he was teaching, this would have been earlier in his career. He was teaching in a college class or something like that. And he said, "Hey, you got a paper due and it's due by this date." Yeah. >> And yeah, many people have heard the story, but they get to that date and there were several students that, you know, hey, things are rough right now and sorry, you know, I just don't have my paper today and you know, but can you can you just give us a little bit of an extension, just a few days? And RC says, yeah, absolutely. Here's some grace. like here, go ahead and do that. And then the next paper was due and then it was like, oh well, Professor Sproul, like you know, we've got midterms and we've got homecoming and you know, it's just been a really busy time. Can we just have a few more days? Okay, he gives them another extension and then it gets to the final paper time and at this point like half the class doesn't have their paper because they've heard about what happened with the previous two, you know, things. So the the number of kids that are not coming in ready to turn in their papers has grown. And so he gets to the day and then he gets to the person, he says,"Hey you, do you have your paper?" "No, I don't have your paper." He goes, "That's an F." Okay. Hey, you. Do you have your paper? Well, no, it's not ready. That's an F. And he just hands out Fs to everybody. Right? Cuz apparently he had no Fs to give at that moment. But in that moment, you had all these people and what do you think was the exclamation on the lips of these people? That's not fair. Wait a minute. You gave us grace before. What about right now? And then he goes on this diet tribe about, okay, you you talk about justice. You want justice right now and you think justice means I give you more grace, but I'm giving you a full serving of justice right now and you can't handle it. And I think that's where a lot of people have gone to and we've we're in this discussion now about when you filled your cup up with cheap grace and then you try to dispense it, you realize there's not anything there. It's like whenever your brain is tricked into thinking the Dorito is going to satisfy you nutritionally and then you get to the end of the bag and you're like, "Oh my gosh, I'm a thousand calories in and I'm still hungry. >> I feel empty just like that bag." >> But and as I say that, I love me some Doritos. But shout out. >> I mean, it's exactly what what Paul talks about here where he's talking about, you know, God's patience is not to be confused with permissiveness. Yes. Right. Like I gave I gave you mercy once. That should make you turn your next paper in two days early. >> You know what I mean? Like it's mercy. God's mercy is is calling us to repent. So RC Sproul giving them some time on the first paper should motivate them to return the favor in kind and and and they turn it in early. You know, the second Peter says, "The Lord is patient, not wishing that anyone should perish." Well, you know, and forbearance like like I love the the term I put it in there. I have forbearance in my ESV version, but longsuffering, >> that's like so much more descriptive, right? Like I feel uh I get a little exacerbated, you know, when I walk in and and I've got three kids and the things that I've told them a million times, they just aren't getting done right. It's like uh so I feel like this sense of longsuffering. I get that. But it is nothing compared to the lifetime of patience that God has with me. But that patience and mercy doesn't need to result in me just tapping into patience and mercy. It should motivate me and compel me towards out of my love and appreciation for a for a patient and forgiving father towards repentance and towards improvement. And that's what I love about God is just that when you talk about his forbearance and his patience is that even when we're being sanctified even as believers, he still has it. Because like even in like sin, I still feel like a little bit of conviction each time. Do I feel condemnation? I don't. But do I feel that conviction of him being like, "Come on. Come on, man. Lean on me for this. Let me help you out with this. Let me I've been patient with you long enough that it's time for you to come out of this. Trust in me. Be with me and and let me help you out of this. And that's that's that's the thing that we have to learn to do is lean on God. And that's been the hardest thing for me in my life like in recently is that you know as a man I want to have responsibility over my job, my wife, my kids, you know, like there's a load of responsibility we feel as men. But how many of us are willing to give that responsibility over to God? I can give God my responsibility for how I live my life in certain ways or how I'm discipling people or how I'm doing certain things, but can I hand it all over to him? And one of the things somebody convicted me on was, you know, you're dealing with all this anxiety and all this pain and and God's basically telling you right now and he's allowing you to walk through it to say, "Give it to me. >> Let me take care of your wife. let me take care of your family. They're I love them more than you do anyways. Why can't you just give this up? And it's the hardest thing to do as a man is to say, "All right, God. I'm going to give you responsibility over my family." Because that's the thing I'm going feel most responsible for. And so, I was like, man, I got to give God responsibility over this. And it was the hardest thing that I ever did. And it doesn't give me a way out of not taking responsibility of my family. But it's knowing that the ultimate person who's even stronger, better than I am wants to take on that role. And we have to remember that. And we have, you know, I I appreciate God's patience in that one. Again, verse four, or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance or longsuffering and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? This, you know, I think about meekness when we get to here, right? And we we've beat that to to death and Jordan Peterson has as well about what the word meek actually means. like meek means you know brit or a bit bridled horse you know so this is a tremendously powerful animal that is now being controlled by a small bit inside of its mouth and you know it's actually more powerful and more useful when it's under control of the writer right or under the control of its master as you can say but I thought about this while while y'all were talking so there's this there's this MMA fighter like he's he's insane but his name's platinum Mike Perry right so he's a he's a former UFC fighter bare knuckle boxer all those types of things and I remember the First time I became aware of Platinum Mike Perry is this is at the faceoff, right? And so this is the day before the fight. So weigh-ins have taken place and he's fighting some some guy I don't really know. And so what typically happens even if the guys, you know, are mad at each other, like there's a certain level of respect that happens. So they usually go out and then they shake hands and then they square off, which is that awkward thing where they get in each other's face and they're squared off long enough for the cameras to get all their shots and then they turn to the crowd and, you know, they'll flex and they'll know whatever and it's like, "All right, get it the heck off the stage. we got to get the next group up here or whatever. And so they both come walking towards each other and Platinum Mike Perry sticks his hand out and the guy goes to grab his hand. He pulls his hand back and he goes, "You thought you had a friend, boy?" He like puts his arms up like this. And the dude is shocked. He's shocked. Now, at the time, I was like, "What a [inaudible]. I hope he gets destroyed." And that's not what happened. Mike Perry went out there and mauled this guy and knocked him out. And it's like I that guy's career just can't recover, right? Like it's just like you get played like that at the at the weigh-in and then you get to the actual fight and then you don't make the guy pay for it. And that's just kind of been his thing. Like he did that again recently and in a bare knuckle fight the the guy came out and he went for it and he's like he pulled the same thing. But it's like imagine the same scenario here. We don't have a God that would trick you in that way, >> right? Cuz God is clear, >> right? And God will speak to us clearly. Sometimes we have too much noise in our lives to surmise exactly what he's trying to say to us. But he's not communicating in an unclear way. And then we get to make a decision. But aren't we so glad that we serve a God that is ultimate capital T truth, but he's 100% grace, 100% truth. Jesus is 100% lamb, 100% lying. And there's not going to be a gotcha. There's not going to be like, "Oh yeah, I want you to repent just so I could see if you would do it right." And then pull the hand back and then yell at you. like well we serve such a good God that we can even Ryan give over the things that we want to have control over that we ultimately don't have control over and then so it's it's that you know letting Jesus take the wheel but not in a country music kind of a way >> well you know earlier this year um my wife battled breast cancer and that was like you know we're in our 40s and that was a you know I' I've had a dad die both of her parents have died we've dealt with loss but this was the first time where we were both struggling with like gripping onto life itself with both hands as though the as though our control over it meant anything >> as though our grip and our strength and our focus on living right and and it's and and I'm a passenger on this journey right I'm I'm a supportive I'm trying to love her and serve her and be there for her and I'm trying to speak truth truth to the doubt that is in her mind of like what will happen to our kids if I'm gone. Well, the truth is is that we will be gone one day and if she was gone this year, Jesus is who our kids have, right? G like I would rather our kids have a relationship with Jesus than a relationship with me. >> Absolutely. >> You know what I mean? And so we do tend to hold on to those things that we think is precious as though as as though that means anything, you know, and and and the truth is is that we're meaningless. If if if you know, the best thing that we can do for our kids is to give them over to the Jesus. I the best things that we can do for ourselves is to give ourselves over to Jesus is to repent and be faithful. And man, that's that's really hard to do sometimes because of all of these things that Paul says. Like, I want to feel good about myself. I don't want to always wake up and go through every day beating myself up. But you know what? Jesus doesn't want me to go through my day feeling like that either. Jesus wants me to go through my day feeling like I'm I've conquered death, right? He wants me to feel the victory that is in his death. He wants me to feel that. But man, like I I just feel like sometimes it's easier to just knock someone else off their stoop a little bit and be like, "Ah, at least that wasn't me." You know, I'm doing a little bit better than him, so I'm over. >> Oh, going back to like the u the accountability group thing from a few minutes ago, um I think our our responsibility as men and as people in general is that our repentance should not be necessarily in a group. Now, it may happen in a group setting, but it should be something that we're doing um with God, right? That he's the one that brings us to repentance anyways. >> And so, my encouragement, I was just kind of thinking like my encouragement to everybody that's listening is that >> are you getting are you are you creating margin in your life to be able to be quiet and ask God to search you um to know you and to lead you in a pathway of righteousness? And then as he reveals things to you, you know, sins of omission, commission, are you willing to respond to that? Are you willing to understand what how God sees that? Maybe he hates what you're doing. Are you willing to step into that? Be like, "Yes, I see that you hate that. I want to hate that as well." >> Um, and are you are you able to allow God's sorrow to bring you to repentance? And then can you use an accountability a group uh you know a foxhole group of guys to help sharpen you? Because I feel like that those big blocks of sin and things are things that are between you and God. I'm not saying that you should not bring those up in a in a group setting and and have guys help you, but I'm just saying that God should be the one that's bring you to repentance. Um and it should be your foxhole group of guys that are sharpening you. Uh like from Proverbs 27. Just a thought. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I uh do any of you know people that like drive their cars around and their their dash is just covered in warning lights >> and they just >> I thought you were going to talk about ducks ducks in a >> lit You want to talk about repentance? >> It's a Jeep thing. >> Jeep people need to repent of all the ducks on the dashboard. Especially if they put them there after they bought them on Amazon. >> Well, it means they're rolling around town with a surplus of ducks to pass out. >> It's strange. >> It's It's a weird thing ducks. It's bag of ducks. So, if I had a Wrangler, I'd get rid of it. >> Yeah. >> The uh the thought I had, you know, is listening to Eric, it's like in God's kindness, God's kindness is like a warning light that comes on our dash, but we have to respond to it. Like the just because God says, "Hey, >> like there's an issue here. It doesn't mean that because we're aware that God's aware of the issue that it's just going to resolve itself." It's like we have an action to go, "Okay, my check engine lights on. I better deal with that. Oh, this one's on, too. But there are too many people driving around town. They're dash looks like a Christmas tree >> and they're just like living in the kindness that God's revealing all of this stuff to them and he'll just take care of it. And that's the role of the church. You know, I I think we talked about that today. It should be the role of the church. >> When I go into church, I feel conviction. And it's not because I feel conviction because I'm a bad person. I feel conviction because God's opened my eyes to that warning light. what am I gonna do to to believe in him and to let him take control of that and change that and repent of it? And and that's the role of the church. The role of the church like when you're getting around your community is to help you with that repentance if you're having an issue with it. Um but like there's a lot of repentance that I've had that is just been between me and God in prayer. It's like God changed my heart on this, changed my heart towards this person, changed my heart and how I'm, you know, reacting as a father or as a friend. And that conviction is a good thing. Like conviction is not a bad thing. We need to be able to see those warning lights and allow God Jesus take the wheel, you know. >> Well, also it it's a it's something that we should take seriously. Yeah. Of what godly community should be. So Mark Hitchcock today during the sermon in Ephesians Ephesians 2, I believe, he was basically talking about how people just look at the church really cheaply. And part of that is because of the ubiquity of the church in certain places in the world. I talk about that. in Oklahoma. I mean, there's no such thing as church discipline here because if one church wants to put you under discipline. You just go to the church across the street, right? And then you you'll change do denominations willy-nilly. Most churches don't have membership anyway. So, you can just come in, get your coffee and your chips, and go listen to the concert and the TED talk, and then you can just bounce. There's no such thing as membership. Everything is so cheap. And part of the the thing that it leads to is this nefarious thing, which is especially true in the town that we live in in Edmund. No one's got problems. No one, sorry. No one's got sin, right? So, like they they've just got some things they're struggling with right now and there's some things that are just less convenient. And we were actually pretty um challenged this week because Ryan and I actually lost a member of our Sunday school uh this week. He was killed uh in an accident. Uh he was hit while he was walking his bike across a crosswalk. And we do um prayer requests at the end of our Sunday school. And our Sunday school's kind of big, you know, it's 50 60 people if everyone were to show up. and your requests are your request. And so I'm not I'm not judging them, but you might put on their prayer request thing uh unspoken prayer or we've got some travel coming up this week or hey, you know, we had a little bug that went through our house last week praying for, you know, for uh some some mercies in terms of healing and all that's good stuff. And I think you take those things to God. But uh Charles, his prayers were always very heavenspecific. >> Yep. Now, he was considerably older than the rest of guys in our group because we have a mixed uh age group, but a lot of people are kind of in that, you know, 30s and 40s, you know, youngish family, still kids in the house, and then there's some sort there's some empty nesters. >> But Chuck and his wife were married for 50 plus years. >> Tell you 100. >> Yeah. The joke was we've been married for No, that's it. The joke was we've been married for 100 years. Her 50 and my 50. Like that was always the joke, right? So, they were just in a very, very different place. >> But all of his focus on his prayers were heavenbound, right? and they were about destination and they were about the gospel and they were about all those things. So, it's been challenging to me to be like what am I what am I praying for? what what am I going to my knees or what am I praying over my my wife and my sons like what am I praying because if I say things out loud like hey let's make heaven crowded but my prayers are about oh I hurt my big toe you know like those are things like my big toe is bothering me I wish Browning would fix it right but he just won't do it I don't know what's wrong with him but you know what where what is the focus of what we're looking at and are we looking at things in a serious enough manner but when you live in this >> very bleached blonde bleached teeth perfect lawns perfect cars. Every man makes a lot of money and every woman knows how to make sourdough. And you know, we live in that kind of community. Like it can get sanitized so quickly so that when we come together with the bride of Christ, when we come together with with one another, we're not coming with our depravity because everyone else is perfect, right? And we don't want to come with all the the nastiness. But like the guy that taught Sunday school this morning, he gave his testimony. He started out with, I was raised by two alcoholics. This my mom would drink before and after work. And my dad would drink between 14 and 16 beers every day during the week. And it would get crazier on the weekend. And I basically didn't go a day. I can't remember a day as a child where I wasn't beaten up by my father. And I'm just like >> that's how it starts. And then I got to get deep. >> You want to talk about leaning in though? Everyone all of a sudden >> cuz you got we got a lot of perfect looking people in our class. We got some beautiful people in our class, right? I'm not one of them. >> And yeah, of course not. No one no one was going to smell great. Yeah. No one's gonna accuse you of that, right? But like that's one of the things. It would be very easy to get up there and be like, "Yeah, you know, I kind of had a rough upbringing, but you know what? The Lord brought me through in this moment." You just kind of like pass over that. And it's like, >> no, his his first 18 or so years, 17 is whenever he went into the military. But the first 17 years of this dude's life is what has informed his adulthood, his his marriage, and how he treats his children. And he's trying to undo generational sin that he doesn't even know how to like wrap his mind around. And so that's the thing is when you treat the bride cheaply, when you treat the church cheaply, it leads to this kind of like anesthetized idea of like h you know things aren't really that bad because you know we got money in a perfectly manicured lawn. >> And when you bring that up and especially Mark's sermon, he was talking about how each one of us is a brick in the temple in God's temple. >> And he goes, "Do you know how you're a brick in God's temple?" >> And he said this at the end and I can and before he started, let me preface. He talked about two churches that he that he's always thought of and the one was Metropolitan where he grew up going and two is Faith, our church that we go to. And when he made that comment of like, do you know how you know you're a brick within the church, I went back and thought of all the churches that I went to as a child and even as a grown adult? And he said, you're a brick in this temple is if you put your faith and trust in Jesus Christ. That's what makes you a brick. And I thought back at each church. The church I went to before faith uh probably had that same message. The church before faith here in Oklahoma would have told me I need to go out and do something good for somebody. That's how I would be a brick. The one before that one would have told me I needed to give more money to the church to be a brick. They would have been all worksbased >> back on what I looked at. But that's the thing we as a church have forgotten and that's what's kind of made us what was the word you use ubiquitous or >> ubiquitous. Yeah. >> Ubiquitous to like the church has lost its beauty because we don't put Christ first in that beauty. We put works first. We put whether you're doing something moral uh or legalistic or giving or doing this. We don't put Christ first in our message. There's no gospel anymore or it's been watered down. And so that's why it's like Vod I think you played it on a on a podcast with Vodium where Vod talked about like I can't stand the way people are talking about God's church. That's his bride. >> His bride. >> That's his bride. >> That was his final sermon. >> That was his final sermon. And like you're talking about a guy who's been calling out kind of what the church has been doing because the church has been moving less and less towards the gospel and more and more towards pragmatism on how to get more butts and seats. And it's just like but that is his bride. like you I would never call any of your wives ugly or not want to be around them, but that's what we're doing, you know? And and Mark brought that up, too. And it's just like, man, it just opened it convicted me. It's like I want to see the church change, the direction of the church in America change, but I got to realize that this is Christ's bride, and I've got to do that in a very gentle and loving way and not harsh. And there's two sides of that because >> if your church's goal is to get more butts and seats as opposed to, >> hey, we've got butts and seats, so let's get them saved and get them discipled. So that that's one side, but then once you are a member of the body, >> Mhm. >> you serve the body, right? My big thumb on my right hand can't decide to not be part of the body tomorrow, right? It's got to function in in the in the way that it should for the overall betterment of the body. And we just don't think of things that way. And again, just for for reference sake, for th those of you that are studying outside of this, Ephesians 2, and we were looking at verses 19- 22. So, so then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, and in whom the whole structure being joined together grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him, you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the spirit. And so, you know, we're looking at several things there, but yes, we're talking about the temple, but what are the the bricks that that make up up the temple here? So, the cornerstone is Christ, and then you you've also got the the apostles and the the prophets that are part of the foundation. >> The foundation is doctrine. So, that's one thing I want to point out, too. How many of these churches do we hear blank over doctrine? This is greater than doctrine. This is greater than doctrine. They're trying to they're trying to do that God is love thing and not talk about truth. When doctrine, there is truth. And without doctrine, you don't have the cornerstone, you know, the corner cuz like I think that's what Mark kind of pointed out. They come together. They align the doctrine aligns with Christ. And if we're not aligning our doctrine with Christ or we're not aligning doctrine to anything, we're not going to have the foundation. >> You can't think rightly about God if you don't have right thoughts about God. What are right thoughts about God? Where do they come from? That's doctrine. >> Doctrine, which is the word, >> right? Absolutely. Well, before we wrap up today, I do want to hit verse five. Uh, so verse 5, Deon, if you can go and read that for us. Romans 2:5. >> But because of your hard and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. >> So when I was working through Sproul's Romans in a Year, which is hilarious because it's going to take us forever to get through this, but yeah, in Sprouls Romans in a year, he sets up verse 5 by saying, "This is one of the scariest verses in the entire Bible." Yeah. And then you read it and you're like, "Oh, because of your hard and impenitent heart. You are storing up wrath." So, it's not wrath is just being stored up willy-nilly for no particular reason. No, no, no. Because of your actions or inactions, you're storing up wrath for yourself. On the day of wrath, when God's righteous judgment, not just judgment, his righteous judgment will be revealed. And so what it's setting up is on that day if you are weighed and found wanting that is a you problem because it's a problem you created but also it's an issue for you eternally. And so yeah it is a terrifying verse for sure. Well, sorry. So, it's it goes back to where we were saying where we we can confuse God's patience with permissiveness, right? He's delaying that judgment. So, it's not coming moment by moment, sin for sin, transgression by transgression, right? Like, we're storing them up for someone who is longsuffering. And there is a day coming where all of those things that we have accumulated over time is going to be levied out. But we but but as we go, it's like if if if I've got a kid and I never punish them along the way, they think, "Well, I'm not going to get punished for this." >> But if But if you know, can you imagine like, "Hey, you're 18. Way to go. Happy birthday. We're going to deal with 18 years worth of your crap right now." You know what I mean? Like it'd be like it it would be unbelievably intense. And like you said, that's a terrifying thought, but we do. We we some you know th those things don't happen moment by moment. Sometimes we think they do. Sometimes we think uh we measure God's love for us based on our current circumstances and we think well I've been bad or I've done this or I I know I deserve this and I feel like I feel like that's that is not God judging you. That is not God laying down his judgment for what we deserve in our disobedience. Right? Sometimes that's just life. Right? Your car broke down because cars break down. It's not because God said, "Well, hey, you were bad this week. I'm going to I'm going to make your car break down." Like, it is a long-suffering rolling it up 18th birthday. Not that's that's just a madeup thing, but but just kind of like, man, it's it's coming and he's going to lay smackdown. >> And I would say that like if you're not being convicted, if your conscience is not talking to you, I think there's a problem. Um it I I was kind of listen I don't know if this is theologically correct or not but the word sin trans transgression and iniquity. If you take sin just kind of generically like oops I said a bad word or oops I did this thing you know um we got maybe lay it there but then you got transgression where you actually step over a line like you're willingly stepping into something that you know you shouldn't do. And you got iniquity that I think the Amorites were storing up wrath. You know it took several hundred years before God pronounc pronounced his judgment. But that iniquity where they're literally living in they're becoming identified with their sin which we see a lot of that today. Um but I what I was going to say is that if you're not receiving some sort of conscious like oh hey that's not right or or conviction that hey you need to get you need to repent. Um I feel like that you probably seared your conscience. You know what I mean? >> You're you're bringing up a good point and when I read this it went back to chapter one where God gave them up. >> Yeah. RC Sproul talked about how that's called judicial abandonment >> and God gives them up to their sin >> and allows them. That's the worst thing that can possibly happen is God just let you sit in your sin and harden your heart and do what you want to do. At some point, you know, he gave them up. You don't want to be that person that he gave them up. And then when I also looked at this, it made me think of Frank Turk's message uh during the Charlie Kirk uh memorial. Yeah. >> Where he talked about >> where he talked about grace and justice. He goes, "We all want justice." And we talked about this last week and we've talked about this a little bit. We all want justice. And it's like when we look at what we've done here and we're looking at, you know, the wrath that we're storing up for ourselves and the sin that we do and we're not going to give this to Christ and we're going to ask this God to be a just God. Do we want that justice? >> We don't want that justice. We want grace. And that's what we're going to get into in chapter 3 is like why we want that grace. why why we're moving the route that we're wanting to move to in regards to repentance and and and allowing Christ to take hold in us. And so the worst things that could happen to us, judicial abandonment and the fact that Christ or God has given us up to our sin and lets us sit into it and we no longer have that conviction anymore, >> right? And so CS Lewis and the Great Divorce, don't lose your thoughts. So CS Lewis and the Great Divorce that was written back in 1945, by the way, uh there's a quote from there which goes right to all this. There are only two kinds of people in the end. Those who say to God, "Thy will be done." And those to whom God says, "In the end, thy will be done." All that are in hell, choose it. Without that self-choice, there could be no hell. It's just like, "Oof, like that, man, that hurts." But that that's the truth. But like, you get to a point where all we want is we we just want independence, right? We want to be able to make our own decisions. We don't want anyone telling us what to do. And they c we don't certainly want anyone judging us decision by decision. And then at some point apparently by the narrative of scripture and I think CS Lewis is playing right into that. It's like sure thy will be done. Like try this on see if you like it. Yeah. I you know it's going back to that whole idea of seared conscience. If we're not if our if our conscience is seared like that's a that is a chemical change when you sear like a steak. Like you cannot unsear a steak uh once it's seared. um you need something supernatural to reset that. So if you're sitting there out there listening and you're like I you know I I know I know maybe maybe God's saying something here but I don't fully understand it or maybe you've been just going down a path and headlong with it and you know and may maybe you don't know it's wrong or maybe now you're getting a little kind of inkling that maybe something is wrong. Um what what I do in practice is there are times where I will just be quiet and I will and going back to what I was saying about Psalms 139. I'll say Lord search me and know me >> and and then I'll just be quiet. Um because there are a lot of things I can go through my head. I can try to like rationalize things. I can, you know, think through what my day and and I do do that sometimes um in order to kind of like review my day and and and find sins that I know I committed. Uh, but there's also times I just like, Lord, just reveal to me like things that that I'm doing or not doing that you need me to know about. God is faithful. He will do that if you'll allow him to. Um, and if you allow him to, it might move you towards a little bit of sorrowful repentance, you know, and and start to allow God then to unsear that seared conscience and make him make you humble before him um and and more right with him. when I think if we put a bow on verses one through five, it's hey guys by the way rule followers need Jesus too. And so it's like if you and we'll get there uh but it's like without the law or with the law >> doesn't actually matter. There's wrath being stored up for all of you. And that's another thing as well to understand when people are like well why should I fear God? I don't really understand why I would want to fear him. It's like >> cuz you don't want wrath, right? And so fear is about reverence, but fear is also because, >> you know, he's the lion of the tribe of Judah. He's still a lion. And some people just have never reckoned with the fact >> that, hey, what is the the quote from Chronicles of Narnia? It's like, yes, he's dangerous, but he's good, right? And I think that's something that all of us should be focusing on as well. But guys, we're going to wrap up the discussion there. Uh we went through Romans what 2-5. So come back here next week where we're going to start in chapter 2 6. But before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost added on to life. Our mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Crossway forging table starter set. Five books. If you want all those five books at a 50% discount, go to the show notes and check that out. Also, log us Bible software at best Bible software on the planet. Don't use it at full price. Use it at a discount. That link is in the show notes. And we are a donationbased ministry. So, if you want to continue to see content like this to get to men all over the globe, hop on board and be a donor. Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five-star review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@undantton.life. That's info@undantton.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www.undton.life. And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is their song Perpetual, which is off their self-titled debut album on Faceown Records. The links are in the description. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the Lion of Judah.