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You can go to shop.undaunted.life or check it out in the show notes. Guys, we're always going to have hats and shirts and a bunch of other awesome stuff. Go there, support us, wear the mission. Again, it's shop.undaunted.life. Check out the link in the show notes. Shop.undaunted.life. This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. Welcome back to the forging table. The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. At the forging table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience by digging into God's word. We're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey. Out of order. That's Matt. That's Russ. That's the horn. And uh we're going to continue a discussion, not an argument, but a discussion that we were having last week. Um and so if you want to go ahead and ree it up, Ryan, because you're the pin puller on the grenades at this table. So go ahead, >> Russ. What is your No. >> Yeah. What is your problem? >> Russ, why do you hate those donuts? [clears throat] >> We want to know. This is unacceptable behavior because as was established by last week's episode, the greatest doughnut in existence is the make John from Missy's Donuts of Guthrie, Oklahoma. You took like one and a half bites of this thing. What is the problem? >> All right, so it's nothing against Missy's. It is just that I right before I came over here, we're doing this early in the morning. >> My fault. >> Yeah, I lame. >> I made a really big protein shake with like tons of tons of stuff. 16 calorie. I mean 16 ounces of just like >> it's bananas, protein, creatine, super greens honey. >> Is there any pumpkin spice in there? >> Uh peanut butter. >> Hey, cinnamon. >> Wait, he's trying to hate on the Jaco. The Jacoinninnon. I'm not done. I'm only like halfway through right now. [laughter] >> Cinnamon. >> Cinnamon. Chocolate. And um >> Oh, I'm missing. >> There's so many there. But anyway, >> there's Alfredo sauce. Oh, [laughter] and >> and some vanilla bean ice cream. >> We had ice cream for breakfast. [laughter] >> Yeah. No wonder you would. >> So, like I have this huge protein shake that I make and I've been trying to make it for for myself and Harrison. My son's playing football and you know, like we need to get him some more calories, things like that. And so, anyways, I've gotten to the routine of making it. Uh I only make it like we run out of bananas, don't make it. Tiffany got some more bananas. So this morning I was up early and I was like I'm going to make that shake. Not thinking that we were going to be sitting here and donuts were going to be presented. >> You should have had the fornowledge. >> Yeah, exactly. I am not >> This was a predestined moment. God sovereignly provided these donuts for y'all via uh Lady Thompson. >> So I will eat them. They will get eaten. >> Okay. >> It's just my morning stomach cannot handle >> more than what I've already >> The shocking thing is you don't have a secondary stomach because I have two separate. >> This guy has second breakfast, man. He's a hot man. So, shout out [laughter] shout out the rings. >> Potatoes is what I like to eat. Uh, there you go. There's your reference Jake Winkler. But like, no, seriously, like whenever I can eat the biggest I can eat a tomahawk steak, baked potato, the whole different things. And then when they bring out the banana pudding or the cheesecake, I'm like, "Cool. Let's engage that second stomach, baby." >> Yeah. It would be a little bit different for me if it was meat or something like that. Like, there's only so much. I mean, I just described what I had. >> He put the whole refrigerator in his protein >> and there's a lot of sugar. I mean, there's a lot of everything in there. >> Hey, bud. You want to play some football first? [laughter] Let's have some ice cream. Yeah. >> You want to get yolked? >> Listen, it's it's good stuff. >> Good stuff. >> Sorry, Ryan. I interrupted you. Uh, go ahead and tea up what last time we talked about or you want to go into the pumpkin spice lattes? >> Uh, well, hey, first of all, [laughter] how dare you hate on the official flavor of fall, which is where everybody's going to be listening to this is in the fall. But yeah, Jaco Fuel put out a new uh ready to drink uh protein shake and it's and it's a pumpkin spice and they're right. You know what? >> They're gross. I'm not drinking one at all. >> You're going to have one? >> No. >> Dang. >> I still think Lindsay Clancy was guilty. >> Forging table. >> I will not have a uh [laughter] I will not have a pumpkin spice latte with her supporters. [clears throat] >> Hold on. I just said that I can't [laughter] do anything else. >> Ryan made me mad. I would like to point out that Kyle is always getting onto a pound on the table and he just like he's so actually look good to me emphasis these >> two things to say these actually do look good to me so I'm I'm okay with this but I do think it's funny that around the holidays it's like >> I actually hate pumpkin I'm not >> anything that you would like that they would just be like so you like this so you must at Christmas like this version of this it would be like I like brand flakes Hey, so you must like pumpkin spice pranks. >> I I don't I don't do pumpkin spice. I don't like pumpkin. >> How about How about this? How about you just have a little sipsies of mine, so you don't have to open up I don't want to waste yours. >> So yeah, there we go. >> Yeah, that's what I I'm going to look good. We've been talking about a lot of ingredients. Speaking of ingredients, I >> Paul is talking about the ingredients that it takes to be safe. >> We haven't continued to fight from last What do you mean? Oh god, you like onions, but you can't take a little pumpkin spice protein. Man, I Oh, man. I can't even say what I think. I want to say >> that is worse than your face when you did the >> smelling salt. >> Yeah, that was >> Do we need to compare? Cuz I can just get out. >> Hey, we should here's what we should try. [laughter] >> I would rather do the smelling sauce and drink that again. >> He has to put that in his mouth and then do smelling salt and see what [laughter] close your Bibles. Close your Bibles because this thing is going all over the table. >> You're going to steer into this. >> All right, here we go. >> Which one am I doing first? >> I think you have to hold try to hold both of them. It's like a Well, I won't go into that, but >> he's going to he's going to blow all over. >> All right. Yeah. So, just take a little sipsies into your mouth and then I'll go ahead and uh that's unscrewed. So, there you go. Take care of God's word. >> There you go. All right. >> Oh, golly. >> You got this. >> This is cover your faces. >> You'll be fine. You have a straight path to the bathroom if things go poorly. >> You really do. >> It does not have a straight path. I will trip over all. >> There's three [laughter] cameras in this way. >> It's just straight water in the right. like it'll be fine. >> Hey, what? >> Oh, yeah. Get those open. You got to get those open. >> Yeah. Is there It's undone. >> Oh, man. Oh, >> no. Surely not. >> Stop. >> Okay. I stop. >> Oh, man. Yeah, [laughter] >> bro. Hit the salt. Hit the salt. >> Hit it. Hit the salts. Hit the salts. [laughter] I >> actually like that. Oh, my eyes are burning, but I like it better. >> OH GOSH. AH. [screaming] >> ALL RIGHT. THERE IT IS. WE'RE FINE. >> It can't be. How was your face worse with with the Jaco in >> Guys, this says no reflection on Jaco Fuel. It's a reflection on your terrible taste buds. >> I Jaco, I love your stuff. I have your Jaco go. I have your Jaco >> Dehydrates. >> I have it that there's much a lot of it sitting in my office right now that needs to go in the fridge. >> But I freaking hate pumpkin and pumpkin spice. >> It's not Jaco, it's lemon. And I'm sorry I'm not a woman like Kyle and pumpkin spice. >> If this is what it means to be a woman, man, I feel like a woman. Shai Twain, it's okay. >> That's pretty good. That's like one of the better pumpkin spice anything I've ever >> When you drink that, that's like the 11 jurors on the Lindsay Clancy trial right there, >> boys. Uh, [laughter] it's going to get even worse. But, okay, back to our argument. If is anybody else need the need the smelling sauce? >> I'll put a few in my my drink. Uh, all right. So, the >> I can smell that from here. >> Yeah. All I can think of is is [laughter] Jim Carrey and Dumb and Dumber. [laughter] >> My wife hates gag mode. I didn't [laughter] >> It's the Jo that gets me in gag mode and then he kept like >> Man, this is going bad for Jo. >> No, it's [laughter] only It's not because there are two other human beings that are drinking and telling you how tasty it is. It's cuz he hates everything pumpkin. You don't like pumpkin pie, right? >> I like pumpkin pie. I love pie. Pie is my favorite thing in the whole world. >> I will have any type of pie except for pumpkin pumpkin pie when I had a label. >> I didn't whenever I was like a little kid but >> for the record, I am not a pumpkin guy. >> Like I'm not a huge pumpkin anything fan, but this is delicious. >> Yeah, saved. >> You guys look like freaking pumpkins with your red hair. >> You freaking pumpkins with your red races. >> I'm not about that a little bit. Prejudice. >> It's clearly racist. >> It [clears throat] has nothing to do with your race. >> That's [laughter] enough. >> Liberal. >> Whoa. A lot of stuff was just said. >> Yeah. Well, I don't even know what I just said. I just know derailed this conversation. >> But back to the argument from last week. So, we were kind of talking, you know, where it talks about here, uh, you know, Ryan, you brought up, uh, expository preaching styles and like that kind of thing. Russ, you were making the point of like, okay, look, >> you can have a specific style that you prefer that's, you know, a better flavor for your pallet. So maybe it's pumpkin spice, maybe it's banana cream, whatever you're into. But that doesn't negate uh, you know, certain styles of preaching because, you know, one's more pick and choose. Let's pull some Bible verses into the point I'm trying to make. I ended last week's episode by saying that at some point we all agreed that you cannot be converted to the true gospel by hearing a fake gospel. It's not >> I don't know if we agreed on that. >> You wouldn't agree on that? Um, >> can you be converted to the true gospel by hearing and obeying a false gospel? >> So, what I what I by [clears throat] hearing and obeying a false gospel? No. The the only thing that makes me want to go like this is where I'd say on something like that trying to like right now come up with a decision on like how I'd classify that whole phrase there. Um, I would say I would want to go back and read what Paul was dealing with whenever and and what he was saying whenever he was talking about Apollos and some of those other people and when he said, you know, that the name of Jesus is being proclaimed. I'd want to reread that passage and just kind of figure out what was Paul saying like were they preaching a a is there a difference in an error in teaching and preaching versus like the gospel not being uh perfectly uh ornate right there. And that's that's kind of like what I was saying to yours. It wasn't it wasn't the fact that like obviously I like that style of preaching. It was I think did you write down what you had said? Were you reading that? Was that something that you read? I I can real quick but before before we do that I just want to make sure that I'm I'm clear in kind of how I was couching it. So let's say you are sitting in in a [clears throat] church XYZ church and the pastor is preaching a false gospel. Not an incomplete gospel but a false gospel. You cannot convert to the true gospel >> after hearing the the false gospel. That like that's what we're seeing here in verses 16 and 17 is faith comes through hearing and hearing through the word of Christ. So if someone is not giving you the word of Christ, you will not be converted. >> I would say [laughter] I'm really not trying to play I would say that for our context here, we're a little bit different than what Paul was when he was writing because the gospel was only proclaimed through preaching at that point. Whereas like if someone if someone is sitting at a has there ever been someone sitting at a place and the p and the pastor or somebody said a f false gospel and that person was actually looking at the word of God and being like >> no no no like the Leonardo DiCaprio deal is like that right there like but they had these letters and he had he has said if anyone comes to you preaching a different Christ than the one that I have preached let them be an >> let them be a cursed That's not what he's asking. I mean, what [clears throat] he's asking is could No, I know. I know. >> Could anyone I'm What I'm saying is if you have has there ever been a situation where somebody heard a pastor's preaching a false gospel but still came to Christ because the Lord used that to point them to but that's not what I'm saying. And so like so what I'm saying is literally >> only by what they hear. Yeah. Absolut absolutely. >> So it's not saying that that person is damned to hell forever because they heard a doofus say the wrong thing. That's not not what I'm saying. >> Right. Well, I think this this kind of echoes Paul is echoing what what Christ says, "The sheep, my sheep hear, not the sheep, my sheep hear my voice, and they know that it's me." Um, Piper, I really like what Piper says about this is uh Christ is essentially telling us, I've dropped you in this place in time. You live in a city full of my sheep. Go bring me my sheep. They're only going to come to me by the hearing of my word. But that word has to be true. And I think there's a little bit of an echo here from Paul's saying [snorts] faith comes through hearing but hearing of the words of Christ. >> So to go back to what Sproul wrote, so I'm not taking him out of context or anything like that that just kind of got my mind thinking about that was he said Paul wrote his final admonition to Timothy from the maritime prison which was no more than a piece of rock hewned from the ground. The prison had been used as a sistern to hold water. To enter, one had to go downstairs. The prison space, carved from solid rock, spanned about 15 ft across, and stood about 7 ft high. There, in the cold, wet darkness, Paul awaited execution. And while he was waiting, he wrote his last epistle to his beloved Timothy. He wrote, "I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ that you who will judge the living and the dead at his at his appearing and his kingdom preach the word." Second Timothy 4 1-2a. Timothy's preaching was not to be political commentary, pop psychology or entertainment. Paul told his disciples to preach the word, which means doing expository preaching such as preaching exposes the word and makes it clear to the people. So that's just made me think because Kyle, you bring up a good point in regard to is the gospel being heard? And I've sat under a lot of preachers and a lot of preachers I sat under were topical preachers. Yeah. >> Uh before I even knew what expository preaching was. Um, and those topical preachers, I can honestly tell you, I never left feeling convicted by the word. >> Let me ask you this. Have you ever listened to an expository preacher that um you left there not feeling like you heard the gospel? >> No. So every expository >> I would say yes >> piece that you've ever heard >> we have if we if we're talking about our church >> not our church. >> Yeah. So what what he's saying >> if I do expository >> I'm talking I'm talking so here's here's the thing. I'm not talking about I'm not talking about hey here's some pastors that I listen to because I want I'm talking about when you're going to church. This is a church you go to every Sunday. This is a person pouring into you every Sunday. I can tell you that when I go to an expository preaching church that I hear the gospel and I feel conviction every time I leave church rather than when I went to the topical preaching churches which our church still does topical topical uh sermons. >> But there is an explicit gospel call. >> There's an explicit gospel call in it. But when I've gone to topical churches that preach a topical sermon, I I can tell you I never left convicted ever. Like I always left feeling like I was a good person. >> But is that more about So So what I think that you're doing there is you're applying what what didn't connect with you so that it would never connect with anybody else? I'm not I'm not I I I think you're saying that in the fact that that's that's honestly I couldn't say that that's not the truth. But I'm not a I'm telling you I've sat through the sermons >> and there is nothing in the sermons that bring you back to Christ. And it's more about Let me finish. Let me finish. >> I don't know. I don't know that you can really say that none of those sermons had anything that would bring you back to Christ. We didn't have We were We were doing a book for like love does like the whole sermon just kind of finish for a second. >> Can I a bad pastor? That's not a >> But that's the thing. That's what Paul is trying to say here. >> But he's not basing it off of if somebody preaches this style, it's bad. Like that's just a bad pastor cuz he's not preaching go. >> Let's let Ryan get his full. Let me get my full. >> We can't even evaluate what he's saying if we don't do what I'm saying. >> That's what that's >> actually Ryan. what I would like [laughter] to say. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Go ahead. >> It's like it's like can I can I can I can I tell you this? >> Go ahead. >> So So I And I'm not even trying to say bad pastor. I'm just trying to what Sproul is trying to say here. And what I'm trying to get across is we got to be mindful that when we're in church on Sunday that we're hearing the word of God. Like we've got to bring we got to know what that looks like and what that sounds like. And we only know that by reading the word and and and [clears throat] hearing it and hearing it and hearing it. I can tell you I sat under topical preaching for a very long time and I did not hear the word of God. I have family members that were in that church that did not hear the word of God. Now whether that's a bad pastor or just not good preaching style, maybe maybe you're right. Maybe somebody did hear the word of God and I didn't hear the word of God. But what I can tell you is when it's messages built around you and not about Christ, that's what we have to be on the lookout for. And with topical preaching, that's I think what Sproul's trying to say is why expository makes more sense is because you're drawing out of the word what the word means rather than a topic of what it means for you. Okay, >> let me let me out real quick. >> Uh so Russell said earlier it's different if it's meat. And so uh say this is some Neil Guy meat chips jerky. So get after it. >> I need that to take the pumpkin latte. >> How are you doing? Are you like just on the side texting just like like ah you know it's the power of modern technology baby. >> So okay so me and Russ we go to a we have the you may think differently than this so I'm happy to hear your perspective. We have the luxury of going to a church where we get both every single Sunday. So we'll go to our our church is more topical. They do a four-week series or a fiveweek series. So we're getting topical more from the pulpit. But then we go to Sunday school class and we're going through uh an expository teaching style where we'll sit in Acts for months [clears throat] and we'll go through and it's not a it's not a line by line by line because we don't it's Sunday school class. We don't have time for that specifically, but it is more of an expository type of teaching of the word. So we get both. What it sounds like you're saying is it's not topical necessarily. It comes back to who's preaching and what is their view of the Bible. Yeah. Because a lot of those churches that that they stick to the topical because they they can't because they they don't love the word of God. In some cases, they even hate the word of God. So, they're going to give you a feel-good message that speaks to your humanism rather than what God wants to use to cut your heart to convict you to come to him. >> Yeah. And so it's less about the mode of preaching, topical or expository, and more about the view of scripture from the church and who is actually preaching that specific message. >> And I and I hear that and I think Sproul, you know, we all know Sproul is very reformed, so he's probably big on expository preaching. But my question is, and we kind of do it opposite at our church, like we get expository preaching from the pulpit, and then our Sunday school >> more topical >> is more topical. Um, which I don't think topical is a bad thing. I don't I I think it is. [laughter] >> I'm just gonna challenge that. >> You You have to allow because >> you're saying it. Go ahead. >> Read read what you wrote the first time cuz that's where this came from. And all I was saying in that >> not everyone will come to the limited atonement. The gospel is to be proclaimed uh preached. Not not everyone will uh repent and believe. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word. When we believe, we want more of the Lord's word. When we believe, we want more of the Lord's word. We should continually yearn for God's wisdom. Pastors should preach the word, exposit the actual Bible scroll, not give some pop psychology lesson, TED talk, political commentary, or entertainment. Okay, >> that's what I >> So my my conflict there was only around the idea that only through expository preaching is the gospel heard. That's my only >> That's not the point. That's not it seemed like Sprouls is saying >> that to to share the gospel preachers should be preaching expository. That's what Sprrolls he believed that. So that makes sense. That's what I give you an example. I'll interrupt the both of you. So [laughter] there's a pastor that will remain nameless. I'll tell y'all off air. Uh, he's been because I don't want it to solely the point. You know, I have no problem calling pastors out by name, but I don't want it to solely the point for anybody. There's a pastor that's been disqualified from the pulpit for egregious things that he should be in prison and executed for there. Um, he delivered a guest sermon at a service that I was at. It may have been while we were in college, right? So, uh, a church Matt and I were going to at the time. and he came in and I didn't know who this guy was so I wasn't like wowed by the name or whatever like I was all right here's a guy on stage saying words he talked about whispers it was a oneoff topical thing I don't even I guess you could say it was exeetical not isogetical but it was a topical thing where he talked about whispers and where they came from and so if you hear that whisper in in your ear that's like you'll never be a good enough father you know what you're actually just like your father you're terrible you're ugly You're stupid. You know what? You should actually kill yourself. You know what you should actually do? You should kill some other people and then take yourself out cuz that's how pathetic you are. Where do those whispers come from? Take the claim, take the accusation and take it to to bedrock. But then if you hear the whisper that is, you know, you don't need to be doing that. You know there's something better for you. You you know that that situation that you handled it improperly. You should have done this, should have done that. Where do those whispers come from? And there was an explicit gospel call at the end of this thing where the person said and you know the whisper you may be hearing right now not in in your ears but in your heart is that you need to take your uh you know assurance of salvation not from the things you do and your good deeds which are just filthy gra but that you accept Jesus Christ and you give your life to him repent of your sin be baptized blah blah all that the the thing that I think we're running into is let's say he had said everything he said and then stopped before he gave the gospel. It would have been entertaining. It would have been informative. It would have been instructive. I could have put it into practice and it would have made my life better, my marriage better, me better father, better employee, all the things. But if there had not been an explicit gospel call, then I don't care exeetical, isogetical, topical versus expository, none of that matters because the gospel was never given. And so that's where I think we're getting to here is if so if faith comes from hearing and hearing through the word of Christ, if the guy delivering the mail is not delivering the the word of Christ, but he's only delivering pop psychology, then we missed it. >> Yeah. >> I think what Paul's trying like his main point here is saying that not all submitted to the authority and he's making the contrast to say it wasn't the authority of the law that they needed to submit to, but the authority of the gospel that they needed to submit to. So like he is making the point that the gospel is actually the authority that brings us into into that we accept the grace to come into the righteousness in with God. And [clears throat] so I think that's more what he's talking about in general is he's he's moving people away from the law and saying it's the gospel that you need to be subjected to. >> And I get that. I get that as well. It makes sense. It's just like how do we grow from this as Christians, you And that's where I think Sproul really brought it out for me is like, hey, what are we listening to on Sunday? >> Here's Go ahead. >> No, go ahead. >> Here's here's a good point that I think I think that we would both agree on. >> Try me. I'm just messing with you. >> Okay. We may not both agree on the idea that like >> don't don't get suckered into this question. We we wouldn't get we may not agree on the idea that I would say listen if there's a group of people and we and we understand that we think that they would hear the gospel more clearly if I spoke topical versus exeil >> um that we may not both agree to say like well I'm just going to adjust my preaching to speak topically towards the gospel in this situation. Some may say like that's against my standard. Okay. So, I'm not saying I'm not saying that we're talking about adults there. But I think we'd both agree that like there's also a time where if we were teaching a youth program or a kids program, we wouldn't have any problem adjusting our exeal teaching to a topical teaching to get the point across of the gospel to that to that people group. So that's part of what I'm saying is that there is there's a point in which there's are different flavors of pastors that if they're preaching the gospel and they're and their their point is to bring people to the knowledge and the authority of Jesus Christ in their life that they may look at their crowd and who is there and what those people um what those people would understand in that moment and they may say hey this is a time for me to go more. I mean, y'all said yourself, your own church does topical at at times. Why do they do topical at times? Because it fits the moment, right? >> It doesn't fit the moment of the people. It just fits the moment of the schedule. It's like a break in between expository things. But I agree with you. >> But here's where I kind of would differ, and this might take us down a different rabbit hole, is there's pastors, shepherds, and there's evangelizers. And there's people who evangelize the gospel. Now, people who are evangelists, I get that. But when you're a pastor and you're preaching to a flock and you want them to learn and know and everything, you want to you want to bring the Bible out to them rather than just try to hit them on the moment. Now, an person who's going to do like a Sunday night evangelism thing or you got Kyle going into a prison, he's going to build a topic around that to preach the gospel. But when you're in a church and you're supposed to study God's word, >> that's that's so you're supposed So my So my like turn there would be is it fair to say that there are some churches set up >> to where that Sunday morning sermon is evangelistic in nature and that they have teaching and preaching set aside at a different moment. >> So and so I mean I think it just I would say yes. Yeah. >> Well, I think some churches have set themselves up that way. I think sometimes too >> how a church views its congregants will guide how they >> preach from the pulpit. And if you think that your congregants can't handle a more in-depth robust study, you're going to stick to the topical. And I think a lot of times that does your congregants a disservice because >> they can. >> I think it was Howardon. [clears throat] I think that's what he said. If you if you treat them like babies, you'll get baby Christians. I think that's is that >> Matt going back to what you said earlier. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that that was Howardon as well. But I I guess it all comes down to the church you're attending. How do they answer the question, who is church for? >> Because there are people that are fervently like church is for the saints is for the the the teaching and and uh development of the saints so that they can go out to the ends of the earth and evangelize and be the hands and the feet of the gospel. Some other people would answer, "No, no, no. Church is to evangelize. It's to get people saved. It's it's to crusade. It's to those kinds of things. And so depending upon how you answer that [clears throat] depends, you know, how you handle Sunday morning. And the issue that with Sunday morning with how you described it >> is so you go to all things considered perhaps the best Sunday school class on planet earth is the Sunday school class that y'all are a part of with Terry Fakes. Shout out Terry Fakes. But let's say you don't have the privilege of being one of the I don't know 100 200 people in y'all Sunday school class and you're just generic member of church said church. >> You go there. You go [clears throat] you hear the the preaching or the teaching and then you leave. >> It's like what I've started to say like some churches just give you shots of milk every week. I talk about spiritual Skittles, shots of milk, whatever like hits your hits your fancy a little bit better. That's part of the issue is is the point of Sunday morning being accomplished if someone doesn't find themselves into Terry Fakes's classroom thereafter because it's impossible to leave a Terry Fakes class and feel like you have not been equipped and discipled and exedited to an exposit expository preaching was done like all the things teaching that's all there. It's that if you only had the Sunday morning message, is it is it checking the box that you know would would be checked, which does mushroom out to a slightly larger uh consideration, which I'm still in the process of figuring out where I land, is are there different styles of churches for different reasons to reach different people. So, the churches that I've railed on for like never really hitting the gospel and hey, let's just do, you know, movies at church and hey, let's just, you know, keep building MC churches all over the planet, blah, blah, blah. Are they the entry level for somebody that is like, "Hey, they need church for dummies." And I I don't I mean that in the sense of the old books that were popular back in the 90s and 2000s, like they need church for dummies. They need Bible for dummies. And then eventually those people graduate to a church that's going to make [clears throat] them go even deeper and disciple them deeper in into the word. But that was like their gateway drug to to really deep theological or biblical training was this initial milk church, Skittles church that you would say. I think my problem with that is if let's look at Billy Graham. Did Billy Graham have a church that >> he preached at? >> No. He went and he evangelized in stadiums because what happens with those seeker sensitive churches that and and we just read in Romans, nobody seeks after God. You know >> that's right. >> What happens to the people that sit under that teaching and never graduate? You know what I'm saying? So, um >> they'll be a baby Christian. >> Yeah. So Graham preached, people heard the word and they went and found a church and they grew in that church. Now we have churches that just have churches taking offering, doing certain things to keep that baby food going rather than Graham had the baby food and then moved them off to the meat somewhere. like I would have and that's that's that's just my issue with that is that >> are we going to are we going to keep people in this area because I was in that area when I became uh when I rededicated my life or really really looked at God I did it at a seeker friendly church or seeker sensitive church but you know what I also bastardized the gospel and had cheap grace through my whole time at that church and then another six years at another church that was exactly like that church but smaller and then finally I went to a church that actually ex did expository preaching from the Bible and had the questions and the disciplehip that I lacked from both places finally through the love of God opened my eyes to the beauty of it. >> Russell, you can go and have the final uh final word on this and then we need to hit hit a section of scripture which we technically haven't done yet. Your fault by the way. >> So many words. Uh I Ryan because because I care for you like I I do like I I hope people watching this don't miss that is that >> we show up and and we have a lot of differing opinions. Absolutely. And I keep showing up because I enjoy hearing them and I do care what what your opinions are and I I see the perspective. I would just challenge a little bit of your I don't know if we would call it theology, but your theology on which churches are able to move people through those moments have a lot to do with your anecdotal evidence in your own life of where you were in that church at that time. And so, um, it's almost like it's almost like looking at a, um, a football team or a soccer team and looking back at that soccer team and being like, man, they only they they only focused on this during practice. I I only learned this and I didn't I didn't learn the other stuff. And then you also look at other players that came from that team and they're well-rounded in in other things. and you look at that and you say, "Okay, there were there were times where maybe you could judge the program." And there's also times where you could say, "Well, [clears throat] that player wasn't suited for that program and they really didn't get everything out of that program than what they were intended to." So, like in our church, I think one thing that um that our pastors are becoming more aware of and and trying to hit harder is to um spend more time up at the pulpit talking about the expectation of our congregants not stopping at Sunday morning service. And so, that is something that I think that we realize is a is a could be a weakness. I I do want to say one thing about what Kyle said is um we do have the benefit of being in in Terry's class. However, um I have also had the benefit of of learning from and hearing other people that have other classes in that church teach. And his is not the only top tier Sunday school class preaching very biblical, very much like this is going through scripture. I mean, Cliff Sanders, um, you know, uh, Andy Rashkob, like there are tons of people, Bill Search, like they are they are deep diving into scripture in their classes as well. So, I just want to be fair to the whole idea that yes, there are a lot of people that would go to crossings that have never stepped foot into either one of Terry's Wednesday night classes or any other class, but they've stepped foot into other classes and the church does put an emphasis on those other things being very deep dive teaching. Now if somebody comes to the church and they don't partake in that then we can't do much about that except for we should set the expectation that we are going to drive them to those functions if that's how we have set our church up as >> yeah that's and my point was not that they didn't just go to Terry's they didn't go to any any form of disciplehip from somebody that's ter being called out from the pulpit to say you need to be doing that >> just one 30 second point >> yeah one >> the anecdotal evidence is not just my thought it was more of I've seen the evidence evidence from other people. So I could actually [clears throat] bring you other people that were in that church that will tell you the same thing I'm telling you. So again, I think that goes back to what is the church's view on scripture and what is their view on their congregation. >> And if they don't have a high view of scripture and they have a lower view of their congregation, they're going to slip into that topical. Topical topical in itself is not the problem. I you can there are plenty of people who come to Christ or who are fed in topical sermons. There is an inherent risk there more of an inherent risk than expository preaching because you're going line by line and you're having to you're having to to search and you're and study. But topical preaching isn't the issue from my view as much as it is where is that church's foundation set and how do they view their congregation and how do they view their place in their congregation's life. >> How about you keep that silky smooth voice going and read 18 through the end of chapter 10 cuz I want us to get into uh chapter 11 starting next week. So go ahead and read uh 18- 21 of Romans 10. >> You got it. But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed, they have, for their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world. But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation. With a foolish nation, I will make you angry. Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, I have been found by those who did not seek me. I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me. But of Israel, he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people." >> Quick thing, if we go back to verse 18, when it says they twice, but I ask, "Have they not heard?" They indeed they have. So, usually when people like Candace Owens or Tucker Carlson say they, uh, they're referring to the same thing Paul is here. They are the Jews. And [clears throat] so, uh, the [laughter] they being referred to here, wow, >> are the Jews. Uh, the Jews control everything, including the weather. But in this just little section [clears throat] that Matt said, >> there are so many references. It's funny because it points to what Russell was talking about earlier. He's taken a bunch of references to things from the from the Old Testament and from the Torah, obviously in the same thing. Uh so verses Psalm 19:4, then he refers to Deuteronomy 32:21, then Isaiah 65:1, and then he wraps it up with Isaiah 65:2. One thing that's very interesting about this is as Paul is writing this, we can't know for certain if he has the scrolls in front of him or if it's just in his heart and in his head, right? Because especially when we get into 11, there's going to be quotes that we get into that he uses where it's like a combo of multiple verses from the Old Testament. And so he's basically giving you like a summary. like when we get into 11 uh verse 26 and 27 there's like two sentences four lines where it's five different script scriptural references one of them is from earlier in his own letter so you could say four and so I think that that's a very important thing and the point I want to make there is not well that's wrong we shouldn't do that or that's awesome I love it it's at this point when you squeezed Paul the word of God came out and the only cannon that we had at that point was stuff that was in the old Testament. Just like what I talked about with my late friend Phil Robertson. When you squeeze Phil Robertson, anger didn't come out. Vitriel didn't come out. Judgment didn't come out. It was just Bible verses. And the longer you spend in study, right? Can I see your Bible, Russ? If your Bible looks like this, even though I got him a brand new one and apparently he's too derelict to show up with it, but if your Bible looks like this, this shows like if your Bible's falling apart, it means the man that possesses it probably isn't. Y'all probably have heard a quote like that. But when you spend enough time in the Bible, it's just what's going to come out of you. It's going to come out of you when you're having a hard sticky conversation like with your wife or or a difficult conversation with your kids or when you're in a situation where you're trying to like bandandy about different ideas. It's the Bible that comes out of you. And so that's what we see uh see from Paul here. But I mean ultimately what we're seeing in in these verses is that you know Israel was ignorant of the salvation truth contained in the Old Testament, right? How could experts in the law, experts in the Torah, experts in the major and minor prophets miss Christ? Like they were the professional lookers looking for the Messiah and they all missed him, right? Because of some form or fashion. Um, and so I I just think that's it's a very interesting uh point of scripture. And again, if you just kind of buzz through it and like, oh, that was a bunch of old references. Nah, no big deal. It's like, no, that is just a huge part of Paul's ministry. >> I think it's just showing God's plan from the beginning. Like God knew his people. He knew who he chose. He knew what was going to happen. And he's like, I told you from the beginning I was going to make you jealous. And now I'm making you jealous. This message is not just for you. It's going out to the Gentiles too. >> Oh, now there's dead air all a sudden. Russell ain't got nothing to say. All [laughter] contrary, actually, I don't believe that, Ryan, for some reason. >> I love it. I love it. >> I think like you said something last week about people who you don't know and having conversations with them or you don't know very well and then being open to hearing versus your family members. You could you could really feel the anguish in Paul because he's he's writing some really hard things to his fleshly brothers, his his the Jewish people who he is one of. Um, you can see, you can kind of read that anguish that he's having. Isn't it interesting that like the hardest people sometimes to talk to and have good conversations about religion or Christ is your family members. And that can't be easy. But, you know, praise God that Paul is willing to say those hard things to his uh his brothers who he desperately wants to be his brothers in Christ. Well, I think as well when you get into the end of end of this section, uh, where it talks about in verse 21, a disobedient and contrary people, um, okay, he's he's referring to Isaiah 65:2. Can you actually pull that up real quick while I'm making my point? Isaiah 65:2, >> because I thought this was interesting. Again, the verse is uh 10:21. But of Israel, he says, "All day long, I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people." And whenever you get it, just say it, Ryan. But he's held out his hands. Right? This is a a direct reference to uh 652. >> All day long I've opened my arms to a rebellious people, but they follow their own evil paths and their own crooked schemes. That was NLT. >> They follow their own crooked paths and their own evil schemes. Ultimately, they're denying the truth of the gospel, right? You could even say blaspheming of the Holy Spirit. And I think that that's an important thing here because if you don't have the first part, the second part doesn't make sense. All day long, I've held out my hands. Does that mean a literal 24-hour days? No. It's an expression to say, "I've held out my hands continuously to this crooked and depraved people and they've refused to accept my gospel." Again, the free gift of grace. These are people that were professional rule followers. Got to have some rules to follow, man. And this guy, he seems to not be following the rules and he's blaspheing by calling himself the Messiah and saying that he is as God that that becomes problematic. And so, I mean, again, there's just there's just so much in here. And if you don't go back to the references of where Paul is pro pulling this from, you're just going to kind of miss the ultimate points he's making. If you go back and actually like look at the Jewish people and how they viewed the Gentiles, anybody who wasn't Jewish, like look how badly they viewed like the Pharisees and Sadducees viewed their own people who they thought were unclean. Now you want to go to a Gentile or a Samaritan or somebody like that and they just had total disgust. And >> so for them thinking that they're a chosen people by God who God is like if we want to go back to the times of and we'll go back to it more in 11 but of Ahab where Elijah sets off a burning altar and they still don't follow you know like God's given them so many chances and they still go and worship ball they still go and do something else and and now he's like you know what I I I knew I was going to have to do this from the beginning but now you're going to see it now these dirty people who you think are disgusting and not deserve serving like the prodigal son are going to receive my gift. >> And if you back up even one more line, Ryan, to verse 20 of Romans 10, this is referring back to Isaiah 65. So if you go to Isaiah 65, I'll read from the NASB 95. I permitted myself to be sought by those who did not ask for me. Emphasis is put on the word for there. I permitted myself to be sought by those who did not ask for me. I permitted myself to be found by those who did not seek me. I said, "Here I am. Here I am to a nation which did not call on my name." And I'll read verse two as well. I've spread out my hands all day long to a rebellious people who walk in the way which is not good, following their own thoughts. And uh that that's just a very important thing for us to to get to with this entire section. Again, Ryan, you read it earlier from the NLT. It's like this is not a problem with God. When we get into Romans 11, it's going to seem like, wait a minute, so did God pull a fast one on the nation of Israel? Did he pull a fast one on the Jews? >> By no means. And that's really going to be the argument we start getting into next week. >> Well, I think if you back up to 19, I just went back to Deuteronomy 32:21, which is where that one comes from. That that verse, it says, "They have made me jealous with what is no God. They have provoked me to anger with their idols, so I will make them jealous with those who are no people. I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. How patient is God that he like goes on this diet tribe of talking about what he's going to do. He kind of ends with I will take vengeance on my adversaries. I will make my arrows drunk with blood. We're still in we're still in Deuteronomy 32. But then that whole like diet tribe or rant if you want to call it that ends with rejoice with him, O heavens. Bow down to him all gods, for he avenges the blood of his children and takes vengeance on his adversary and he repays those who hate him and cleanses his people's lands. Like he avenges the blood of his children. Like how did they not see is kind of where where I where I think Paul's going, how did you not see like you're not children because you follow the law. You're not my children because you follow the law. You're children because of Christ. [snorts] when this gets back to why are they children to begin with? um they were >> chosen. >> They were chosen. They were elected. They were fornown. And and I don't I don't want to get ahead of the point because that actually gets >> it really gets into the early part of 11, which I really want to save uh for next week. You know, that the first five six verses or so. We're really going to get into that. But I'm just curious for for all of you guys as you read this because I mean again going back to verse 20 uh when he's talking about I've found by those who did not seek me and I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me. like he's talking about like Paul's making the assertion that that prophecy has been fulfilled by the Gentiles, right? That's the the entire point is they were not the Gentiles were not the chosen people, right? Uh and yet God still provided a way. And then when we get into Paul's argument uh in 11, I know we're doing a lot of foreshadowing for 11, but it's like he used the obstinance and the rebellion and the contrary nature, the contrarian nature of the Jews to save the Gentiles. >> Yeah. and then focusing on the Gentiles in order to make the Jews jealous to where they're like, "Hey, I want some of this gospel action, you know, and then I then they get themselves back into the game even though they were stiff necked people prior to that." >> You know what I mean? [clears throat] I I like Paul will go into it later, but you know, he's talking about the people groups, [clears throat] but then he's also talking about that like there are still those within those people groups that, you know, later, well, it's too much into 11, but and I just think that he does such a good job of being able to like break break this out and show the people groups and then we'll see him start to move this into like how this works with individual ual like it doesn't disqualify anybody that's a Jew from coming to Christ because he gives himself as an example later on. But like he's breaking that in. It also doesn't qualify that because God chose the Gentiles at this point to bring the promise to them that all Gentiles would be be believing at that point. It is, you know, basically the same thing that the that the Israelites didn't do is it's those who call upon his name. So, other thoughts on Romans 10 as we wrap up before we get y'all to a soccer game and a >> football game. That was perfect. I have nothing. >> I think Well, I just think a lot of times we can be so cockure of our salvation just like the like the Jews are so cockure that they're God's chosen people. So surely if I'm part if I'm an Israelite and I'm a descendant of David and a descendant of Abraham, I am I'm good to go. And I think the way that applies to us today is I think we get arrogant enough to think that we've moved past needing the gospel. And we've moved past, okay, I'm saved. I'm good. Like, I don't need to do anything. But like, the gospel is something that we should always be preaching to ourselves more than anybody else because it's not something that we've we've learned and and moved past, but it's something that we shouldn't ever forget. >> We apply. >> Yeah. Well, I I I love that you said that, Matt, because it's I forget it was Mark Hitchcock who made it sink for me sink in my head first, but it's it's something a lot of people have said, and so I'm trying to repeat it as much as possible. We tend to only look at salvation as a past tense thing, right? Oh, when I was at church camp when I was five, or oh, when I was 25 years old and the heroin needle was still dangling out of my arm, or whatever your your situation is, right? That's your that's your justification moment. That's when you are justified. That's when you are imputed with the righteousness of Christ. That's your past tense version of your salvation. >> Your present tense version of your salvation is your sanctification process, which is going to be every single day until, you know, natural death or rapture or whatever you believe in or something like that. But that's your journey that you're on for the remainder of the time that you're on this planet. >> And then the future tense of our salvation is our glorification. >> Yeah. that all too often I've seen whether they came from a secret sensitive movement or an expository church or whatever they get their justification and they go cool I'm on the team like good to go. How many times have we seen it where an athlete signs a big contract? Oh yeah, right. >> They you know they worked hard their whole life, you know, they had their contract year and they busted it. More receiving yards than ever, more you know home runs than ever, more goals than ever, whatever your thing is. They get the bag and then they turn it off. Oh, yeah. Right. So, as opposed to trying to live up to the contract that they were given, they're like, "No, I' i've done it. Like, I got this amazing gift. I earned it somehow, and now I don't need to do anything thereafter." Which was to the point you were making, Russ, which is like, "No, no, no. You have your justification. Now, what are you going to do with it? Are you going to be the hands and feet of the gospel? Are you going to be uh the person that is making sure that people hear so that they can obey the gospel? because that's the call for all of us that are in Christ. >> It's interesting that salvation is a trinity of sorts. >> That's right. That's true. We are we we were saved. We are being saved and we will be saved. >> That's right. That's a great way uh to leave it, guys. But come back here next week. We have been foreshadowing it for long enough. We're going to get into Romans 11. So make sure you are read through the end of Romans 10. But before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost. Add to life mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. 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