Hey guys, real quick. So, I've talked to men literally all across the globe about where they're missing the mark and how they want to improve. They normally talk about how they wish they were in better shape. They wish they had a better relationship with their loved ones. They wish they had more success and influence at work and some other stuff like that. But here are some of the most common and biggest things that I hear. I wish I knew more about the Bible. I wish I could lead my family spiritually. I wish I could recall more scripture. I wish Bible study wasn't such a struggle. Well, guys, I've got news for you. You don't have to keep wishing. It's time for you to start doing. It's time for you to stop wasting your time and money on stuff that has no eternal value whatsoever. I keep hearing you talk about how you want to be more biblically literate and spiritually resilient. And now is your chance to prove that you mean it. That's why I want you to take advantage of our partnership with the most powerful Bible software on planet Earth, Logos. So, Logos approached me about putting something together for the Undaunted Lifers out there, and we collaborated to create something I'm super pumped about, the Undaunted Life Study Bundle. So, here's the skinny on the bundle. There are over 200 individual resources and they include titles from authors like Vodie Bacham, Charles Spurgeon, RC Sproul, John MacArthur, Matt Chandler, Dietrich Bonhaofer, William Lane, Craig, Paul Washer, John Sto, Doug Wilson, Paul David Trip, Jipacker, and a whole bunch more. And there are so many helpful resources in there. There's Bibles, commentaries, Old and New Testament study guides, devotionals, systematic theologies courses dictionaries histories encyclopedias non-fiction books, and more and more and more. And here's the most insane part about this deal. If you were to buy each individual resource by yourself inside of Logos, it would cost you over $3,000. $3,000. But if you get the Undaunted Life Study bundle, you'll get all 200 plus resources for just $349.99, guys. That's $3,000 worth of stuff for 350 bucks, guys. That's almost 90% off. And you know that you waste more than that on the hobbies that you have right now all the time. And these won't help you with your disciplehip and sanctification journeys, right? It's time to get real and take control of your Bible study and spiritual development. Click the link in the show notes for this episode. If you want the link, it's logos.com/undauntedlife. That's www.llog.com/undauntedlife or the link in the show notes. It's super easy to sign up. Again, go to the show notes and click the link or go to logos.comlife. Sign up for Logos and get the Undaunted Life study bundle right now. Hey guys, real quick. I just wanted to remind you that we have an official Undaunted Life store. You can go to shop.undaunted.life or check it out in the show notes. Guys, we're always going to have hats and shirts and a bunch of other awesome stuff. Go there, support us, wear the mission. Again, it's shop.undaunted.life. Check out the link in the show notes. Shop.undaunted.life. This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. Welcome back to the forging table. The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. At the forging table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience by digging into God's word. And we're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with us. That's Eustus. That's Horn. and return of the Matt as I live and breathe. Is that Matt Rasmmer across the table from me? >> Matt, >> he lives. >> You haven't been here in a considerable amount of time. >> It's been a very long time. >> Where you been? What you been doing? >> Uh >> why do you hate us? >> Well, >> well specifically. >> What a load of questions. I've just had a just a busy life, man. It's just like work was just crazy for like a year and a half. So, I finally got out of that. finally made your way here. >> Cycle. Yeah. And so here I am. >> It hasn't been that long, has it? >> It's been that long. It's like six months. >> Have you done a recording of Romans? And you're going to think you're a little bit out of practice. You're using your midnight. >> It was I think it was Romans 4 or five. So >> yeah, that was a billion years ago. >> Hold on. I thought we were in Romans 2 [laughter] today. >> That's what he said. >> Yeah, that's what he did. Yeah. Everyone loves the jokes, right? Uh everyone loves jokes. Let's Let's get Kyle's blood pressure up. >> The last time you were on, we were on together and we hadn't been on together for a year. Wow. >> So, it is a you problem. I think it is a problem caused by horn. Well, here's the other thing. >> You You haven't been in here so long that the the cockure thing, like the shirts that were made, you haven't even gotten your shirt yet. >> I haven't. That's true. This is so >> Today's your day. Here we [laughter] go. Uh this is for like the deep cut forging tableler fans out there. Look at that thing. >> Oh, the cockuress. >> I would have worn that today. Oh, isn't that beautiful? And oh, I should have given you a heads up. >> Yeah, >> I'm still thinking. There are people that are like, "Hey, are you going to actually get a Christmas tree cake tattoo?" And I'm like, "Don't tempt me. That would be my first color tattoo ever." >> I don't know why you haven't. >> That may be the best on your left side of your thigh. >> That may be the best Christian love theological, whatever you want to call it, shirt I've ever seen. >> Yeah. I mean, you know, you got the Phil Robertson arrows and, you know, the gospel thing and all that, but no, it's that. I mean, obviously, you go in public and people are going to immediately start asking you questions about why Tulip is the the truth and all those things. >> You think you think they see [laughter] that? >> Yeah. Tell me more. Show it [laughter] to your camera. Show it to your camera over there. Show it again. I mean, tell me that someone's not going to see that and convert from Christianity to Calvinism. >> I was walking [laughter] I was walking the grocery store and this lady's like, "Why is that rooster holding five tulips?" I was like, "Let me tell you about it." >> But see, see, it doesn't end. Did that really happen? >> No, we [laughter] that's details. Those are details that aren't important. Uh, but there was a funny story. Well, actually, it's not not super funny, but Matt and I went to Matt, Russ, and I all went to college together. Uh, Ryan was somewhere like I don't know, playing songs on his guitar or like, you know, whatever. Um, people that uh people should get that reference. >> But, uh, when you and I were in college, you and I had a similar burden for young folks. So you at one point were doing some early childhood education stuff. Thought you wanted to go into the classroom and all that and then you know took a detour to do some other things. >> But do you remember the program that that we created? >> 100%. >> Tell the folks. >> Bronco Buddies. >> Bronco Buddies. Okay. Tell you tell them about how Bronco Buddies happened and you can pop the top on that Jo. Go. You don't have to hide it from the microphone. Nitro Pop. All right. So So tell them about cuz like I was trying to remember like how the idea how we came up with it and then what we did to make it happen. [laughter] Well, we were so [clears throat] we were in an organization called uh Old Blue Crew and we had kind of to use a theological term resurrected um the Old Blue Crew from its former glory. And we were looking for some opportunities for some like community outreach and like some community service type projects. And I I don't remember how it happened, but I remember the two of us just talking and kind of getting a wild hair going, "What if we did a mentorship program based on Roger Webb's uh was it is it three C's? Three C's of leadership." >> Do you remember the three C's? >> Oh man. >> Oh no. Here. >> Hold on. Hold on. Uh community >> um >> no at home. >> Character character and civility. >> There we go. >> Still got it. So, we came up with a whole like semester long lesson plan >> for elementary students. It was either I can't remember if it was fourth or fifth grade. I think it was >> it was fifth grade. >> Okay. And it was the the >> because they were the you know the last level middle school. So, they're the leaders of their school. >> That's right. So, we did uh the pilot elementary was Westfield Elementary, the newest Edund Public Schools elementary at the time. >> Yep. >> And uh man, that was a lot of fun. And so the thing that we wanted to do is because like for whatever reason we were we were going to school with a bunch of people that were just obsessed with legacy. Like looking back it was just like narcissism. But it's like they wanted people like 20 years later to be saying their name on campus without realizing that you know university campuses have a four or five year turnover cycle. Like if people are still saying your name it's because your name's probably on a building because you wrote a fat check or something like that. Yeah. >> And so, but you know, we wanted to take Roger Webb, who was the president at the time, you know, still a great mentor of mine. I got a scholarship to go to school. Russ got the same like, but [clears throat] to to take those things and inculcate those values into those kids. And I remember I just remember this, you and I targeted a different school that will remain nameless. >> Oh, yes. I remember >> cuz it was in the poorest part of town. So, uh, there was this assumption that maybe like some of those kids, you know, a lot of those kids were on, you know, meal assistance and maybe didn't have great home lives and things like that and they rejected the program outright. Like they were like, well, well, you know, that'll violate this and >> on the basis of what they just >> I can't remember. >> I can't remember. It was it was like a really quick response. It was basically like no, you don't even need to think about this. >> Yeah. And then we I forget how we got hooked up with Westfield, but like the principal said, absolutely. When can you start? Like and so what we would do is once a week we would go into these uh fifth grade classrooms and then we would do a lesson based on character, civility or community. And I mean we were really challenging these kids like we were having them read quotes by you know uh you know Ralph Waldo Emerson and Henry David Thorough and um like we were having them do some different activities and kind of get up and do all that. Um, and do you remember what the [clears throat] class did for us at the very end? Um, as like a thank you to us as as we were kind of leaving that first year of the program. >> It wasn't the Dr. Seuss deal, was it? >> No, what they did was is they all got >> But I am curious about later on you have to explain what the Dr. Seuss deal is. >> Yeah, I don't know what the Dr. Seuss thing is. >> Well, uh, that was that's something I remember. We weren't really We weren't the we didn't head that up. We got invited to come listen to that guy who had memorized every Dr. Dr. Seuss book and he like they would he would go into elementary schools and he would just recite Dr. Seuss book and it [clears throat] was Horton here's a who it may have been after a lesson that we did on something that like pertain to that. This is such a long time ago. >> How disappointed is that guy whenever Dr. Seuss got like kicked out of the school library. >> Like he's probably lost [laughter] his livelihood. >> All right, go ahead. No, that poor guy. We need to pray for him. Uh but uh what they did was is because at the time you and I were both on the UCO men's soccer team and so they got a soccer ball >> and they signed it for us and >> I found it the other day. >> No [laughter] way. >> Wow. >> This would have been given to us in >> Wow, that's cool. >> 2007 >> 2008. >> Yeah, that Oh my gosh. >> And we won't say any of these kids' names cuz but it's Westfield fifth grade, Miss Hurley. 2007208. Thank you. And uh Matt, we're going to give that to you. Wow. >> Dang. >> And you can uh >> you should come on the forging table more often >> and show. Yeah. I mean, I've been literally been sitting on that thing for like months at this day. >> I know. There might be a third. You never know. >> A couple of kids really like went in some detail there. I mean, some of them just wrote their name. Yeah. >> Listen, we made a profound impact on these kids for sure. In fact, I think some of them even said that we had taught them more than all of their teachers combined, >> right, up to that point. >> And parents. [laughter] parents and we we'd only been there but cuz I mean we're there once a week for what 20 25 minutes like we we really didn't have that much time in the classroom but anyway I was going through some old stuff and found out the other day >> that is that is incredible what a legacy >> Matt did you teach him about tulip >> we I did not believe in tulip at that point in time I had a very uh shallow theology at that point in my life 100%. Um, >> well, I know that y'all have a goal for today and it's to convert my friend Eustus over here to everything that you believe. That's why I put him on this side so I could protect him. And so, you're welcome. I didn't want the >> I figured you'd put me there so that there could be like a shot of me whenever [snorts] y'all bring up >> just in case he cried when I handed him a soccer ball. I wanted to make sure that that [laughter] was on camera. So, I wanted him to have his own uh camera. >> It's too early later. The dad probably would have. >> So, you know, if you're sitting in that seat, you're probably going to get something or you're going to be put on the spot but of something. some [laughter] sort of a joke. >> That's not usually my goal is not to convert you to whatever uh Ryan wants to convert you to. My sarcastic my goal >> I don't believe you. My goal is [laughter] my goal My goal is just to to sit around here and you know >> discuss the word and the truth. >> Yeah. [snorts] >> Word and truth. And if I hear something that might be the third gift. >> The third gift >> coming. Matt, >> WHAT IS THIS? >> OH my boys. What do we got here? What are you talking about? >> Guys, we got some donuts. >> Donuts. [laughter] >> All right, check it out. Come here, boys. >> I'm glad I brought some coffee. Now I am going to cry. >> Say hi to the people. >> Thank you, buddy. >> Hi, people. >> What's up, guys? >> Oh, man. Where are these donuts from? Say it into the microphone. >> Missy's Donuts. Eli, >> you guys went to Misty's. >> Eli, talk into the microphone and tell them what kind of donut you got this morning. >> What' you get? >> Get close to the microphone. Tell them. Um, do you know why I actually [snorts] got chocolate launch on? >> Yeah, I got chocolate. I like how he turned it into a No, I need to like play this up. I need these people to kind of like lean in. >> Incredible. >> Dead air time and you played it well. >> Yeah, you got you just got to kind of lean in. No, I I I like in the middle of the night I woke up and I'm like, we need to have Missy's since we're starting this up early. It is the best doughut shop. Shout out to Missy's in Guthri, Oklahoma. Boys, thank you so much for driving. >> Oh, this is the the Okay. I've heard. I've never I've never had this. >> Thanks for tell Ryan. >> You get a orange. >> You got an orange one. >> Why? >> Why? [clears throat] >> Because >> he said because Ryan LIKES OSU. >> OH, THERE YOU GO. SO RYAN likes OSU. >> I'm married into it. >> I was going to say, >> yeah, that's cool. >> What an excuse, man. >> Wow. Awesome. >> He was going to say the Bears. >> All right. So, what we did >> How cool is that? >> Yeah. Yeah. No, go ahead. Go ahead. >> No, I was going to say so the best maple lon in the world. Even if you don't like them, you're going to get one. But then we got some chocolate and some glaze. And then we got to make sure we get the orange one. And uh Ryan, do you want to go ahead and tell the world why we just set a new record for the earliest starting of a recording of the forging table in history. [laughter] Here we go. It's sprinkles. So get get your play a little closer. >> It's sprinkles. It's sprinkles for your long >> I'm going to take one. And do y'all want another here? You want a second one? >> Grab a second one. That's why they're here. >> Might as well just grab. Bam. There's that one. You don't get it. You already got your second. >> You only get so many opportunities. >> All right. So, Ryan, why did you ruin everything? And why are we here so butt crack adon early? >> Wow. Never heard it put that way before. >> You never heard of the butt crack of dawn? >> No. It's like a bouquet of roses. Um, hearing that early in the morning. Um, so my son started uh flag football and we got the schedule like two or three weeks ago and it was on the schedule for the flag football, but we scheduled these out like 6 months in advance. >> And so I always make it a commitment to be here when I say I'm going to be here. And so uh we were texting back and forth and Kyle wanted to move it up to nine and I was like I can do nine. And then Russell was like, "Ah, I'm going to go and uh I'm going to go shoot some dove with my kid, but I guess I'll see if I can do it." And I was like, "Hey, man. I missed my kid's first uh football game, so we're all making sacrifices." Just cuz I know Kyle was going to be like, "You can't do that." Like I even told my wife when I went out there. I was like, >> "Why didn't you even say first Russ goes, I would never do that? I [laughter] would not do that. >> I would not I didn't mean it real. I was just I was just like >> me dove hunting with Harrison for the I mean we we do it all the time and stuff like that. That's one thing and I still was >> conflicted about the idea of changing the time and missing out on that. So whenever you said first football game I was like no way no way. >> They're like no way. And I and I knew I know how Kyle is and Kyle's like you're not going to miss that. But I didn't want to put a wrench into everything for everybody and add more stress to you. >> And so >> I'm glad you said something. But yeah, when when you said that, I was like, "Let me see if I can just sneak this in there and see what Kyle will do." Either either Kyle's gonna be like, "Hey, we're gonna figure something out or who cares?" [laughter] So, >> no, but that's not Kyle. >> Well, that was one of those things where it was like, you know, we all like to, you know, give each other a hard time and do stuff like that, but like and we've done that before for James had a basketball game and it was like I don't like to inconvenience people like, you know, I like to encourage them and to kind of, hey, let's do this instead of that. But it's like when it comes to stuff for your kids, uh I mean, >> yeah, >> even uh here, well, y'all will be hearing this in the future, but I'll be meeting up uh with Matt Chandler in Jacksonville. He's coming to speak at the Church Leader Summit at Church of 1122. It's before saturated. He's literally flying in lateish on Monday, flying out earlyish on Tuesday. And why in the world? Why would need to stick around for a while, do all this kind of thing? Well, because this is his daughter's senior year. Like, she's playing volleyball. she decides she doesn't want to play volleyball in college even though she could and was being looked at to play volleyball in college. She just wants to be a normal college student. He's like, I'm not going to miss a thing, right? Cuz this is the last time you're going to get that windshield time driving to practice and, you know, going to see the games. >> And when it comes to kids stuff, like there is a, you know, diminishing number of those opportunities that you get. And every now and then you have to you have to do what you got to do for work or uh for whatever. But uh on to more important news. How does everybody enjoy the maple lan? I didn't give you a chance to take a bite yet because you were telling the story. >> I haven't I took a bite of the orange donut that they picked out for me and that is amazing. >> Those are so good. Those are so good. >> The amount of >> icing that they put on those donuts. That's amazing. >> Well, here's the other thing. >> Thick, too. >> They will. So, you can tell those people like love what they do cuz some people have donut shops and you tell they hate everything and everything. Everyone that comes in like they just hate everything. >> Yeah. >> Why are you making donuts? Right. In this place, they don't do like the okay, we're going to make a donut and we're going to put like stale Captain Crunch on it and you know, we're going to do some I was into that for a while, but I was like the donuts just aren't any good. It's just >> donuts suck. >> Yeah. It's like a work of art. It's not really like food. But like when you go there and get a super fresh one cuz I've been there before where they didn't have any maple lanons in the display case. So they'll go back and like make me a couple of fresh ones >> and they're like warm and I you know it's impossible to describe like I drive past like 50 doughnut shops to get to that one cuz it's not exactly close close to my house. So >> it's not that close for sure. >> What a great surprise. It was it was cool that the boys brought that up. It's really cool to hear their voices and it'll be cool to hear them on the recording. Speaking of hearing, so faith comes from hearing. Um, >> we got a grasp transition through the word of Christ. Which is right in Romans 10, chapter 16. >> This is the problem with you disappearing for a year is everyone else tries to do it and they suck at it, right? It's kind of like everyone that's trying to write a men's ministry book and then they're just not as good as John Eldridge at doing his thing. It's just like you just sound like a really bad like copy copycat of this person. trying to work a timer. >> Well, I'm I'm not >> I will tell you Ryan Horn's like mast's level getting this turning this thing over. Like we don't even have to like look at him. He just knows to do it. >> But yeah, so last week had a little dust up >> last week on the show. >> What uh probably the biggest dust up we've had in the history of the show. But I will say uh cuz none of y'all were here for it. Um, it was one of those moments where as soon as it was over, it was the last of the four recordings and there was like tension. There probably shouldn't have been a whole lot of tension. I think there, you know, for me and Adam especially, we're just trying to get, you know, Jake, what what do you actually believe? Like, we're we're confused by the things that you're saying. There was no like agenda. It's just like, hey, we just don't know what what you what you're saying. We don't know what you believe. [snorts] And, you know, even, you know, Russ and I, we got into a pretty good dust up. And when I say dust up, people always automatically think negative. It's like, no, no, you have two people that are like expressing their opinions and trying to get to get to truth. We're at um an event, you know, we did a fundraiser uh whiskey tasting for Undaunted Life. We ended up giving, you know, all the money to the the Hope Pregnancy Center here in uh in Edmund. And you and I were at a, you know, an event that was a part of that where it was like a private tasting at my buddy's shop and all that. And so we were like trying to get to ground work on something. But after that recording that y'all heard last week, I said I mean it was late. It was I think we recorded on a Friday night uh or something like that. I said, "No one's leaving. We're all going to the back porch. We're all having a cigar and we're all having a whiskey." Because the thing is is like >> last [clears throat] time whenever you when we were in Matthew and you got real flustered and all of that, you like you left and no one realized how hot you were like how like how bothered you were. And so that bothered us more than the fact that you got bothered. Like we were we were bothered like oh crap. We had a brother that was really like going through it at the moment and he was mad at us and you know we just we couldn't tell. It was like hey we should have done better at that. And so this time I was like nah we're not taking any chances. We don't want anyone leaving uh with hurt feelings or anything like that. It's like we should be able to fervently disagree and establish our position, not come to complete agreement and still love one another as brothers. >> Absolutely. And so I just wanted to like make sure that we like solidified that like the moment like the moment we stopped that last recording. >> Well, Jake and I got got into it, you know, we got in a dust up. You had to turn off our microphones. >> Like I [laughter] ever had to do that. >> Yeah. >> Oh man. But like but like I knew I know that feeling. I've been there. And so like the next day I called Jake and I was just like, "Hey man, you know, like I love you." You know, he's like, "Man, yeah, I love you too." And it's just like we we don't see eye to eye on everything. He kind of wanted to >> I don't know if he's going to get upset for me saying this, but uh if you do, Jake, I'm so sorry. He's like, I just don't want to do Romans anymore, >> you know? And I was like, well, you bring a good perspective, a different perspective that people need to hear. Like, I don't think you should not do it. I may not agree with some of your perspective, but that doesn't make it wrong and it doesn't make it right. You know, I was like, it's just us talking about it. And so I'm glad I'm glad the Winkler is still on because his perspective does mean a lot and uh we should totally understand different perspectives. So I'm not I'm not here to >> here here to change his Russ's perspective. I like to joke about just in case. >> I'm I'm actually I mean I think that's actually >> a little bit >> this is why and and for the guys that like have jumped into a Bible study and stuff like that, you will realize that you have to navigate some of these things too to where you should all be coming in with the idea of a willingness to to um absorb and and adjust your perspective or at least understand the other side. So at certain point whenever somebody is speaking on stuff you almost have to pause your own thoughts and allow yourself to see it through their eyes and then you can still come back to your uh what you feel is your more grounded theology but at least you can gain the perspective of okay I at least see where they're coming from on this and it and it makes you a more rounded and I think later on I mean we've talked about this before the scripture is active alive it is doing stuff. I think at times later on the Lord uses that at different points in your life to be like, "Hey, don't remember there's a side of this scripture that speaks to this that maybe maybe I'm I'm building you a little bit more in that now." And so like I think I've come to a really I don't know or I'm trying to work through an acceptance of being able to say something and if I if I really can't fully >> um fully flesh it out right then >> then to just say like I'm that's something I'm working through like it's something that I'm not trying >> I don't want it to be heard that like it's it's something I'm trying to get through as if there is something wrong with it but it's something I'm actually trying to develop a little bit more understanding myself and so this is where I'm at and you know to to be able to explain everything is a little bit naive into the idea that I would I would know where to even start um to view my own perspectives. >> I think those kind of dustups happen because we all interpret and understand things differently. I I like kudos to you for bringing everybody back because at the end of the day like we're all brothers in Christ. And if you haven't read Whitfield and Wesley's letters in correspondence to each other debating what I assume was probably a hot hot button topic on that show, the idea of election um and how they debated each other very fervently publicly in these letters. Whitfield's final response, and I think Wesley would have echoed this too, was, "I love you, and one day I'll see you in heaven." >> And these were like what both of them thought were like critical to understanding the truth of God's words, and Whitfield ends with, "One day when we meet in heaven, like we'll see each other, and you know, it'll be all good." >> Yeah, I love that. And to even go back to what you were saying, Russ, just [clears throat] I forget who said it, but somebody was talking specifically about Calvinism. I think it may have been Howardon's um his co-host or Carlos and the other fellow. Um [clears throat] they were talking about when you when you get into reformed theology for the first time, may have been Chandler, I don't know. But when you get when you get into reformed theology for the first time, like you get to this place of like cockuress, your cage stage, like you you are we said a tongue and cheek earlier, but it is like you're trying to convert every Christian to Calvinism, right? and you kind of forget about normal evangelism, which we'll get into the importance of here in just a second. >> But then it's just like it seems like all of those guys tend to get to the other side of cage stage and then they get to this point of like humility where they're like, man, there's more here than I'm able to explain cuz you kind of have the the the easy thing, the things that seem easy to explain and then you explain those and then when you go one layer deeper, you're like, oh crap, I don't have the foundation I thought I did. I think what what really hit me was and why I I went into a cage stage and this kind of comes back to a question uh Howard from the forging table asked me. We were sitting out u and just talking. He goes he goes is your whole goal to like convert people to Calvinism? >> And I was like absolutely not. I was like I don't have any goal to convert people to Calvinism. I go I like to discuss it because it's what I truly believe in regards to God's sovereignty. Um but I go if there's anything and I think this is what brought my cage stage. there's anything I think people need to understand is that they're depraved. I go, if you can't understand that you're depraved and you can't understand total depravity, then you can't see the beauty of why Christ out on the cross for you. Because at some point in the back of your mind, you're going to think you're somewhat good enough to figure it out on your own. >> But let's also look at something awesome that the mayor did for you there. So, if y'all didn't know, uh, you know, Howard Wickersam is basically the mayor. Like I And if you meet him, if you talk to him, you'll know exactly what we're saying. If that guy doesn't run for office someday and start kissing some babies, it's going to be a travesty. >> But he's not a real like poke your finger in the chest kind of a guy, right? >> But he he sees things. He's a great leader. He's a great father. [clears throat] >> He saw something to where he's like, I think this might be a blind spot for Ryan. And in his jovial like smile from ear to ear way, he gave you something to consider as is this a blind spot of mine? It's like whenever, again, you know, we've told the story a million times on the show, but it bears repeating. Like the day that Joby Martin called me on the phone for the first time assuming >> I just pulled the pin on the grenade of this relationship and that's going to be that cuz Kyle's not going to respond well. Because on my show, every time I talked about a big church, I said, you know, big church equals no disciplehip. Big church equals don't care about the gospel. Like that kind of thing, which was not what I meant, but that was clearly how it sounded, right? But when he called, he gave me the opportunity to view a blind spot. And thank God, literally, that I didn't respond how I would probably normally respond, which was in anger and pride and protest. And he just gave me an opportunity to kind of look at what what I'm doing and gave me an opportunity to be more precise in my language. And so Howard, you know, even gave you the opportunity to be like, >> oh, you know, it it may come off that way, but here I don't feel like it's that way. But then you can like adjust your behavior moving forward >> that it was that way because we just had this conversation like 2 or 3 weeks ago and it was just more of like it's more of like a frustration for me because I feel like and we were just talking about the forging table in general. It's like I don't really bring up Calvinism. Like I joke about it but I don't really bring it up. I'm usually when it comes up and I have to do it I have to defend it because Matt and I were like the only guys that would defend it at this table. And we were actually laughing because um because you were probably the only reformed guy at that table, the most reformed guy at the table last on the last recording. And that's what we were joking about. >> It was Adam Dan and and uh and Jake. >> Yeah. And so we were like, we were just kind of laughing about it. And uh and then he was like we I was like I don't even like it being called Calvinism, you know? I'm like I just feel like Calvinism I'm like if we go back and we look at this, this is what people believed before Arminian made his points. you know, Armenian made Arminius made Arminius made his points against what the church actually believes. And that's how Calvinism, the name Calvinism came about. And so, it's just like, no, I just I rely more on God's sovereignty than I do free will. And then he was like, you know, he was like, cuz he even pointed out, he goes, when I listen to fortune table, it's not like you're trying to push it. He's like, but then he asked, he's like, is your goal that? And I was just like, no, that's not my goal at all. I think a larger view of this is if this isn't if this is not happening in your Bible studies and in your men's groups, you're probably not in a great men's group because like you [clears throat] say all the like iron sharpening iron, it's a messy thing and there's always going to be tension between the brethren. Speaking of tension between the brethren, Paul is trying to [laughter] unpack the last transition. Uh, okay. So, >> what did we do without you, Matt? I mean like >> all right, let's get back. >> Six months we've just been, >> you know, how many people love you where they're like, [clears throat] >> I'm going to give you I'll just give you the keys to the whole show. Why not? [laughter] Uh, but Matt, since we haven't heard uh that lovely velvety voice in a very, very long time. We're technically getting started in verse uh 16 this week, but let's go and back up to 14. Let's read 14 through 17 and let's uh kick off from there. >> You got it. How then will they call on him whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, how beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news? But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us? So faith comes from hearing and hearing through the word of Christ. >> So there's a lot here. Obviously, we didn't have a lot of time to dig into much scripture last week. Um, but just to reiterate, because I think I may have mentioned it last week, but and and how are they to preach unless they are sent as as it is written, how beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news. Back in that time, back in, you know, the the citystate days and those types of things, they would literally send a runner from the battlefield with news of the battle. Like, obviously, no Twitter, like no uh no Reuters, no Associated Press. like it's you had to send a runner. And so the people of the village or the citystate or whatever, they would look to the horizon and wait to see if a runner was coming. And if the runner was slow, that sent the message, hey, if if they were walking, if they were injured or something like that, it's like this is not good. Because in those times, it's like that means we lost and that means all of us are now going to be slaves uh to this to this new group. uh you know any military age males left are going to be killed and then everyone else is going to be enslaved. But if the runner was running, they had good news to share. And so even just the sight of of the runner coming through like it was they were bringing good news of of victory, right? Um but [clears throat] but getting into 16 and 17, I think the first word that we really have to reckon with is but they have not all obeyed the gospel. That's not a normal phraseiology that we get as it pertains to the gospel. It's normally like you know uh belief and that belief comes you know through the imputation of belief we we get a given to us. But obey here is just kind of like a standin word for you know believe and repent. And so it's just another one of those examples like when people talk about how baptism is essential for salvation. It's like okay obeyed the gospel they believed they repented. Those are the two things that we bring. Uh, but I mean there's so much in 16 and 17. So, uh, let's just park there. >> I mean, Sproul kind of said it to me for me was not everyone welcomes the good news. So, people are going to hear the gospel. There's going to be people that you'll proclaim the gospel to and they'll hear it and they won't either believe it or they don't care. So, it's our job to preach the gospel. It's our job to proclaim it, but it's not our job to get people to actually believe it. When did you um when did you feel like you came to that realization about what the gospel is and how it's how it's transferred? Because I mean again I didn't grow up in church. Started going to a Baptist church wasn't really paying that much attention. 15 years old become a a Christian a believer but I always put things in in the okay you you know you you put your faith in it like you know it's you know it's a decision that I made and you know again we can quibble with is it your decision? Was it forced upon you? kind of thing. But like when when did you Ryan come to the realization to where it's like I because you and I have both gone the apologetics route. You go down this apologetics rabbit hole and you're like, man, if I study these guys enough and their answers, like I'm going to have every answer possible for that person on the boardwalk and I'm going to be able to convert them. And then at some point you kind of realize, oh, oh, I actually can't I I can't answer enough questions. Like it's not up to me. I mean, for me, I finally like I've always I've always viewed like, you know, when we became like first time I probably went up to the altar, it's all emotionalism. It's all like I see my sister crying. She's walking up, so I don't want her to be by herself. So, I walk up there. Um, I think what really hit me was when I was about 23, 24. Um, I was going through a tough time in life. And I knew that I needed to fill that with something other than whatever I was filling it with, whether it be alcohol or drugs or partying or whatever. Um, but then I kind of found I kind of found God that way, but I didn't fully trust God. Um, I wouldn't that was I call that my cheap grace, my uh cheap grace years. Um, but about the time I was about probably 32, 33, um, somebody really just opened my eyes to what the gospel actually meant. And for me, it it all came down to total depravity. I mean, that's why I think that's why I'm a stickler on it is like I was always like, man, I do good things. Like I would tell people I'd go and pass out hamburgers to homeless people, you know? I would go and figure out like things to do. I'd buy somebody's meal. I would go and like serve uh some other way. And I I looked at all these things and I I saw myself as good. Um but I never saw myself as bad. And if I see myself as good, I never really understood the gospel cuz I was like, why did Jesus die on the cross for me if I'm this good person? Like there was no point. I'm doing the right things. And I didn't see it as, hey, Christ lives within me, so I'm doing these right things. I was still doing them for myself. I wasn't doing them for Christ. And now when it comes down to it, about 33, 28-year-old kid tells me about he's a father. he wasn't a kid. To me, he's a kid. Uh tells me about the gospel and ask me, you know, why why did why did Jesus die on the cross for you? And it put me down a rabbit hole that I had to really think about. And so, I've gone through times where I will talk uh talk about the gospel, uh proclaim the gospel. And there's people that listen. Uh I had a a guy who was a cath catholic in my car. Um he was like, "Man, I'd never really looked at it that way." Like, yeah. And so he he went down the rabbit hole and to figure everything out. I haven't talked to him. He moved a couple of years ago. But then I had a family member I was trying to talk to the gospel and they're just like that's personal. I want to talk about it, >> you know. Um and so it's just like, hey, I got to let I got to let God do God's part. All I can do is my part and be faithful in proclaiming it. And that's what I think Paul's talking about here. >> You guys fire away on this as well, just because I mean it kind of gives us an order of operations here, which by the way, I know y'all heard the ad at the beginning. uh the Logos Bible software. Uh by now y'all have heard the interview that I did with Scott Lindsay of Logos. The tools in here, I literally I literally went into Romans 10:16. I highlighted the word obeyed and then I went to one of the things [clears throat] that pops up is the AI study assistant and it just says explain. And then I got Russ, you can see it. This is the explanation of one word, right? kind of what does obeyed mean in terms of like it's showing us you know how >> it's like six paragraphs. >> Yeah. And I mean and it gives you the the exact references that it's going to so you can you [clears throat] know unlike Chad GPT or Claude or Perplexi or whatever you can click on the resource and then you go to it and it doesn't actually explain what the what the bot put out there for you. This takes you to chapter and verse or page number of where these things these concept are brought to. So the power of this is tremendous. But I mean, so again for you guys, again, all all four of us coming from a different like faith background and persuasion. When you get to hear and it says, okay, it's like, so faith comes from hearing and hearing through the word of Christ. One of the things that struck me is two things actually, which is the answer to the person that asked the Calvinist, why, you know, why in the world should you share the gospel if you know everyone if they're elect or not? It's like, well, because we're supposed to evangelize and you can't come to salvation if you hear a false gospel. >> Yep. >> Like that's the other thing. If someone's not, and these are this is a message from pastors as well. If you are preaching a gospelless gospel, then no one can be converted to the true gospel, right? Because faith to the true gospel comes from hearing it. So, >> well, you're you're talking about the people that ask Calvin Calvinist what like why do why do you preach or why? >> Yeah. And I've asked the same thing like why why would I evangelize? They're elect or they're not. >> Gotcha. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That so that this this here kind of seems like Paul is kind of pushing forward this idea of and I think we've talked about this on the show. Um, I've certainly heard people talk about it, God being sovereign over the ends, but then he's also sovereign over the mechanisms to achieve those ends. >> And one of his chief chief mechanisms that he uses is preachers going out and preaching the word. And so it I I think it's our duty to even as lay people who have dominion over even just a family like it's our duty to preach the word to those in our charge. Um so that that is like to me that's like God being sovereign over the ends and the means in which to get there at the same time. I think one thing you look at is like Jew and Gentile, you know, like if you if we read all of Romans 10 from 5 down to 18, it's all about this message for salvation for all. And so at this time, you know, you know, the Jews are the oracle of God's of God's word. So they know they've they've heard from the prophets what the Messiah is going to be. And they're they're seeing some some are seeing this and some are not because God has hardened their heart. He's also proclaiming to the Gentiles like God's going to open your eyes to this. Like we need to preach this gospel. And so hearing that, you know, is just like my job is to make sure like that person that didn't want to listen to the gospel, I'm going to preach it again. I'm going to say it over and over again. Um, and I may not be that vessel. I may not be that mechanism, but somebody else is. I had my grandfather who I tried to talk I tried to talk with him about the gospel all the time. who was a he was a Catholic and he was like, "No, I've given enough. I've done enough. I've done enough good things." I was not the mechanism. Some preacher from down the street uh was the mechanism for my grandfather to hear Christ before he died and and believe. So, >> well, I Yeah, I think just being obedient is the main thing. And I really love what Greg Kokal says about it. None of us are harvesters. We are sewers of the seeds and tenders of gu tenders of the garden. And it's not on us. And we can we can really put a lot of pressure on ourselves if we think, "Oh man, if I would have just said this, they would have they would have accepted Jesus." >> And that one of the things I really love about the Puritan preachers, those guys were like theologically sound. Like those guys were like those were like the smartest of the smart people of their time. And there were passages in scripture they'd be preaching and they would just step back from the pulpit, throw their hands up, and say, "Mystery. >> It's a mystery." >> Yep. And if those guys are saying that, I think we can be just arrogant enough to think, "Oh, well, I well, I'll get it." You know, kind of like what Russ is saying, like we could study forever [laughter] and not not understand, >> you know, a 1,000th of That's probably even too big of a number of of all of God's u thoughts and truths and all those things. So >> I I think you know one thing that I think unites all of this together with people that believe um different different aspects of that in different ways is the idea that we still hold a responsibility to to the work that we're called to. So um I mean Jesus said the harvest is ready, the workers are are few. Like he he wants the workers to work. uh you you read Paul where he talks about the way he speaks to people, the way he interacts with people is he is all all to all men. You know, he he adjusts himself. Uh he talks about speaking with salt, you know, in his in his words like to pull them in. And so he he seemed to not have a problem with the idea of being able to pull fully put this on the idea that grace grace is what brings them to Christ. And yet the responsibility is still there for us to do our calling, which is to go and make disciples of all men. So I mean, Jesus told us to do that. So that's what we're supposed to do. One thing that me and Tiffany have been talking about a little bit and I think maybe in our other Bible study we've talked about a little bit too is the idea that um something kind of new to me that I guess I've always known was there but haven't thought about it is you know the Bible talks about that in heaven that there will be somewhat of a um a system in place that will show the some some good works or some things that have happened. And so in looking at that, like the Bible talks about storing up these treasures in heaven and that there are going to be certain classifications and like I think sometimes whenever we go um when we go one way we're like well works are nothing. They are filthy rags. They're all this stuff. But yet the scripture also talks about the idea that there is honor with the things that are done in our lives here and that those things are to ultimately glorify the Lord, but that we get to share in the honor of some of those things in heaven. And so it's something that I'm kind of just tossing around in my brain right now with everything that's going everything that I'm hearing with different stuff. I'm trying to correlate that also with the idea of like, so what is the Bible talking about whenever it says, you know, that there are certain things that we get to partake in the honor of those things, even though really like our works were nothing. They did nothing um other than give glory to the Lord. >> Well, I think they already announced it. It's a it's it's a sphere with the DVR. That's what's going to happen in [laughter] heaven. So, it's going to be a sphere. That's your screen. You sit down and then you go back to those moments and you get to see uh what what part you played. But >> I think it's faithfulness, you know. I think it's like it's not our deeds. It's I I think it's going to be more of our faith. Do we have faith? Did we do what we have faith in what Christ asked us to do? Do we have faith? Cuz that's where >> Wait, what is faith? What are you saying is faith here? >> Like the >> our crown our crown our treasures in heaven. >> Our treasures in heaven are earned by faith rather than more by like >> is my thought. I could be totally wrong on that. And uh but it's just like when we look back at the Old Testament and we look at back at how um people were saved in the Old Testament, they were saved by faith. >> Yeah. >> It wasn't anything to do with their works or what they did. They were saved by faith. We were saved by faith. >> Yeah. It was counted as righteousness towards them. >> It was the glory. >> And so and that's the thing. It's like, hey, do my do my deeds bring righteousness? No. My faith brings righteousness. And so that's one thing I think of is like, hey, when I had that moment in the flesh, did I have faith in God or did I have faith in flesh? Um, I don't know. I mean, that's that's things that make me think about those certain things. There was one thing I wanted to touch on. >> Hold on before you I just because what you said there I feel like taps on something a little bit is that >> uh I think you said that the faith brings doesn't >> the deeds don't bring the righteousness, the faith does, but the faith brings deeds. you know, the faith produces absolutely and so like those things happen at the at the >> seemingly the same time. >> Um it's like the deed of you see a you see a rope and you're on the edge of a cliff. >> Yeah. >> Is it and and there's a herd of bulls coming at you and you've got to decide do you try to scale down the cliff or do you jump for the rope even though you don't know what the rope is connected to. Y >> well at that point is it the faith that saved you by jumping onto that rope or is it the act of jumping onto the rope that saved you? Like they happened at the same time. >> Um and really the faith, the provision of the faith or whatever that was that got you to make that decision in a split second was what created that action that seemingly had a had a uh effect on you at that time. I would agree and that would go back to how I felt like before I was an actual believer is like the deeds what that I was doing the good deeds that I thought I did. Did I do that on an act of faith because I believed in in Christ or did I do that on for my own flesh? >> That kind of kind of gives us to like the crux of Christianity like doing good works are great. It's just like like following the law in a civil sense like the the magistrate, they don't give a crap whether you like the law or you don't. You could hate speeding with all your heart. As long as you stay under the speed limit, you're good because you're following the law. >> And then Christ talks about, well, in your heart, if you hate the speeding law, [laughter] but you just obey it. Like that's not what I'm asking for here. I'm asking you to love it because you love me. >> And like that is just a whole paradigm shift. And that's a Whoa. Well, that's jack you up with the prodical son is like I mean because I talked about and I've I've put Jay Risner in about a million different ways to reexlain that because I had him do a daily blade on it a week's worth. I had him talk about it here uh when we did his interview also whenever he was on the forging table was because I heard the prodigal son explained a hundred times, right? And every time I'm like that stupid younger brother, what a piece of garbage. He should have died with those pigs. Like that's where I want completely missed the older brother. Completely missed it because I'm like yeah older brother should be mad. Stupid little brother got got everything. And I'm like oh crap crap. And Jay, this was like two years ago, three years ago, where it's like, oh, the older brother was just as lost as the younger brother because he wasn't going to speed, but he hated the fact that he he just it was begrudging, white knuckled, you know, obedience, but it wasn't he wasn't doing it because he loved his father. He wasn't obeying his father because he loved him. It's because he wanted something from a >> lot of similarities in that story in in the two groups that Paul is talking to in Romans here, for sure. I just want to take that analogy one step forward about what he's talking about what happened to Israel is you have you have those that do not do not appreciate the law but they're white knuckling they're doing it and then you have those that transition from that that are almost uh what's the word I'm look they're they're almost so into it that they've that they've gotten to the point to where they're like a driver who is so stern about committing to the speed limit that they are driving down a mountain pass and they see a boulder coming that's going to smash the car right behind them and because they're sitting at a red light they dare not run through that red light to allow that person to move forward and not get smashed by the boulder they would sit there at the red light and be like I'm not moving past this red light cuz this red light was set as a standard to keep people safe to keep me safe to keep them safe and so rather than saying you know what right right now like this thing right here the purpose of this was for the safety I'm actually don't care about that I care about the idea that I can say that I didn't do anything I didn't I didn't break this and then that's what Jesus comes to tell him he's like you're you're basically standing there and you are you are now not getting the purpose of the law the purpose of the law would say to keep them safe you should look at that situation and you should adjust you should speed up a little bit allow them room to not get crushed by a stone >> yeah I had a friend who went to Brazil a few years ago and he was telling me this story that kind of kind of goes along with that. They're at a stoplight in Brazil and they're not in a great part of town >> and a car right next to them is getting carjacked >> and they're in their Uber and they're like go go and this driver's like uh uh he's looking at the red light like and they're like [laughter] go go and finally he floors it but it's like that same situation. He's like but it's it's a red light bro. We're about to get carjacked like just get out of here. I wonder if Elon's incorporated that into some of the Tesla stuff. Like you need to be watching the situation around you cuz there are times where you absolutely need to drive in the other lane for a second, you know? I mean, [laughter] like, >> well, I' I've thought about that. That's why I've turned all the smart stuff off on my new vehicle cuz it's like someone's veering into your lane and you're like, well, I got to veer over a little bit and your car's like, "No, be in the middle. Be in the middle of the lane." >> [laughter] >> I think it's part of the thing as well because since I am way more rule follower like uh older brother in in that way like just kind of naturally >> I've asked those questions before where I'm like well you know if the SS officer knocked on my door and I was a German citizen that was hiding Jews under my floorboards and they asked do you have any Jews here in your house? I was like well I can't lie. I can't I can't break I can't sin in that way. But I remember hearing I've heard a lot of different people explain it, but I've even heard Albert Mhler um explain it before. He's just like the the greater good that leads to human flourishing and protection, right? That is the standard. Not did you lie? Did you not? >> And so it that's the thing where it's in that moment it's incumbent upon you to not tell this evil magistrate where people are so that they can be destroyed. >> Look at Rahab. >> I was just Theo bros. Let's go. the midwives [laughter] in in Exodus, you know, they were they lied about the babies and stuff and then Rahab lied about the spies and right >> they're doing it for the glory of God for the glory of God. >> Now, if you translate that out to be your philosophy and theology for all of life where you're like, oh well, I'm going to lie to all these people because Rahab or something like that, it's like no, you don't get to do that. >> And certainly people do that. >> For us, it is understanding the fullness of this book. >> Yeah. >> Because for us, it is the same thing. My kids are getting to the age that I expect more of them than just obedience to the rules. >> Yeah. >> Y >> I expect them to understand my heart behind some of the rules and to adjust their patterns of behavior based upon my heart behind those rules. That doesn't mean the rules aren't in place. That means I expect you to know when that rule doesn't match the heart in in me making that rule. And to also, you know what gathers my anger more than anything is if they manipulate that situation into trying to make it seem like they were doing that, but they were doing it for their own selfish ambition. And I feel like on obedience, you said it a bunch of times. What is your statement on obedience for the kids? >> Obey all the way right away and with a happy heart. >> Yeah. I mean, I think that's that's a big thing because when they're six and four like my boys, it's just like >> my kids have hit the teen years and it's really becoming harder [laughter] to decipher that happy heart. >> Yeah. Ours ours are still at that age where it's it's our big saying is you can be obedient or you can be sad. You can choose, >> but you can be obedient or you can be sad. >> This is a good segue into what I wanted to talk about. >> You going to pull the pin on a grenade? We We're wrapping up here. Come on. >> I mean, it's not going to be that [laughter] long. >> Okay. >> All right. So I feel like this verse goes towards Christians and Sproul kind of brought it out for me as well. So faith comes from hearing and hearing through the word of Christ. >> Like he's like how many people go to churches >> that do pop psychology that do TED talks that do political stuff [snorts] or do uh commentary or entertainment and nobody's actually hearing the word of God. And like that's one thing as us as Christians is we've got to put ourselves into a place where we're constantly hearing the word of God, where we're constantly getting expository preaching to where we're actually growing in our faith rather than and and being sanctified in our faith rather than just being entertained. The only thing I'd push back on, >> I would love to hear it on that is the expository teaching part is that >> I think sometimes we can we can find a type of a type of teaching that speaks to us and then we kind of can can think that that's the only type that can work. And there's other people there's people that receive messages in different ways. And so like even whenever we look at Paul um there were there were a lot of times where we wouldn't say he's doing expo what is it >> expository >> expository teaching he's he's he's telling stories in different ways to different people. So that'd be the only thing like everything else there. >> However I think that there is a mixture of that that that we can say you know what I I enjoy this type of preaching too and there's nothing wrong with that. I and I hear you on that, but it it comes down to the actual preaching. >> Um, expository I feel like is a really good we Paul didn't have the cannons like we have the cannons >> and so we want to draw out from what's from what's in the Bible. Now >> I guess explain expository like what what >> expository is actually going through the scripture >> and actually drawing out from the scripture. So like >> executing >> executing scripture and the verses like when when you when you talk about the other thing of like stories. So, some things that you have to and and I've noticed this in preaching styles as I've been to many churches before we finally went to Faith Bible. Um, there's a lot of preaching styles where they're going to hit on a subject, whether it's like love, >> topical, it's topical, >> but they pull verses from each >> for to to make their point. >> And some of those verses are pulled out of context. >> There is a there's an inherent risk in that. >> There's an inherent risk in teaching that way. And just let me finish real quick >> because I can actually tell you I've been to many churches where I I always found it funny too is that the pastor would have whatever topic he was preaching on and then I would look at each verse and they come from a different translation. >> Yeah. >> So it's a different it's not like hey we're going to read in the ESV or we're going to read in the NASB and we're going to draw out what these verses mean. It's like no I want you I want to preach about love and here's the verses. I'm going to pull it from message. I'm going to pull it from NLT. I'm going to pull it to whatever kind of fits my narrative so I can push it the way I want to push it. We got to be careful with that type of teaching. >> It's not all. It's not all. >> It's not all. I'm not saying it's all, but I'm just saying that's where it's like, hey, when you're doing expository, you're you're executing the actual scripture itself and you can actually ask more questions on what that scripture means rather than like, hey, let's talk about this topic and I can sprinkle in whatever verses I want. It's kind of Terico does that. >> I just think maybe I I'll say this. I think that I think that because of your desired flavor for the teaching that you like, you don't have to put a negative perspective on another teaching. Even though you can say, "Hey, there's risk involved with that." There's risk involved with both of them. Um, like I would say if I if I was going to argue the point, I would say it's really it's really hard to get away from the idea that you have examples in the faith that exactly do that. I mean, Paul does it right here in this chapter. He basically is talking about a subject. He goes to Deuteronomy, he pulls this. He goes to another place, pulls this. He goes to Isaiah, pulls this. >> He's not he's not opening them up and saying, "Hey, let me go through Isaiah." Because even here he's talking to some Jews like he's he's talking to them. They understand what he's talking about. He's not going to Isaiah and saying, "Let me go through Isaiah and I will I will go through the whole book and point out Christ." He's he is pulling the stuff out from there that points to Christ. And so I am more I don't know the words lenient because I don't even need to be lenient on him. I just have found myself that like I love the other style at times and then I also love to go listen to a good pastor who is able to go through the verses and to pull out the things that speak to this one. >> So like I got to put a bow on this episode. So we'll keep it going on on the next episode because we got to get you out of here for a Will's game after the next one. Um if I could uh maybe put a finer point on what Ryan's saying. Uh ultimately, as we all kind of at least verbally agreed to earlier, you can't be converted by a false gospel. You can't be converted to the true gospel by a false gospel. >> And so, if you go to a church, regardless of flavor, preference, >> and there is no gospel in the message, >> the gospel is not preached. The gospel is not heard. So, the gospel is not obeyed. And so, you will not have people that are repenting and believing >> in the in the audience or in the congregation that day. And so I'm with [clears throat] you when you know when I listen to a sermon where John Piper goes full asberers on half of a Greek word. Great. That's that's awesome. And you know we get an hour explanation of like two letters. That's great. >> [laughter] >> But then also when you get to somebody that goes like mega practical on a on a certain subject or you know Charlie Kirk just got murdered uh you know 25th anniversary of 9/11 or if you want to talk about the Lindsay Clancy case or there's something so big happening in culture where you need to give your flock a a Christian apologetic of what is happening where this is going and what this means. Uh, but there always has to be a gospel call because if it's just here's five ways to have a better marriage, fiveweek series, come back next week for part two, and there's no gospel, there's no call to repentance, then there is no invitation. So, >> there's some there's some p pastoral discernment and wisdom that goes into that for sure. >> And let's let's keep the the pin pulled on the grenade, but just keep it in your hands, Ryan, because we're going to start next week with a further discussion of that. [laughter] But guys, we're going to leave it there. Uh, the quick resilience boost is where we're going to go before we end here at Undaunted Life. Our mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Come back next week. We'll get started at Romans 18 and we'll continue this discussion. But just wanted to reiterate the Logos Undaunted Life study bundle. Logos.com/donedlife forging table crossway starter set. Five amazing resources at a 50% discount. Check out the show notes for all of that. And then we are a donationbased ministry. So if you want to see stuff like the forging table continue, if you want us to help equipment around the globe to push back darkness, hop on board, be a donor. undaunted.life/donate. Thank you everyone for listening to this episode. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive fivestar review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@unaed.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming. www.undaunted.life. The music on this podcast is the song Conqueror by the Christian metal band Void Awaken. Be sure to stream their music on Spotify, Apple Music, and wherever else you get your music. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the Lion of Judah. [music]