[Music] This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. Welcome back to the forging table. The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. At the forging table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience by digging into God's word. And we're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with us. That's Howard. That's Matt. That's Ryan. And we're going to be digging into Romans 1 starting in verse 24 today. But guys, we just got through having dinner, right? And we had to switch this to a Wednesday and you we didn't have our normal thing. And so we're kind of in that place where it's like we just had some dinner. We've already been recording for a while and all that. So we may need a little bit of a pickme up. And so we're we're going to go back into the the history of uh of the forging table here. And we're going to bring a visitor back to the table cuz I don't think that everyone at this table has partaken of these or parttook. No way. >> No, I'm not doing it. I'm not doing it. >> Just hush your butt, Ryan. Okay, so I got some smelling salts here. Um, these are the strongest smelling salts. It says it on the package, world's strongest smelling salts. But, but here's the thing, don't look don't look worried because we have the original package right here, right? So, this is the original one, which has lost its steam, right? It really has like you could put your nose fully in there and take a big whiff and it's not going to kill you. >> And then we got a bag that has not been opened yet, right? So, it's in a sealed bag and a sealed bottle and all of that. So I think we just need to do a comparison analysis for the science for science right now. And so Ryan, you doing okay? >> This is qualitative research. I'm not doing it. So here's the thing. >> Yeah. So he's done it but Howard, you haven't done it before. >> Uh so there are some rules here. So Ryan broke the rules immediately when he did his cuz we told him keep your eyes closed and don't take a big whiff cuz you got to have it like under your nose, right? You don't want to stick your nose in it, especially on the new one. But just to get the difference, I want y'all to smell this because this bag is like a year old right now. I've kept it sealed and I've kept it whatever, dude. Like PTSD >> cuz you can you can smell the bag and it basically smells like nothing. Like this is not a joke. This is not a prank. But go ahead and like, you know, smell that because it's like you can still sense that there's something in there, but it's not like dude, you're not even going to get anything from that. I didn't get nothing. >> Right. So So smell that. That's the old ones right there. You can shake it up. You can give it a little whatever, but it's it's just not >> vitamins. Yeah. It's not >> Yeah, you can smell the >> Yeah, you can get the smell of it, but it's not having the like Yeah. It doesn't go to the the stem of your brain. >> I don't have nose hairs. I love Yeah. >> Yeah. So, you just get a little bit a little bit of it. So, I'll I'll I'll go to the old one here. >> That's some good context. >> Yeah. So, that's a big deep breath right there for the people there at home. But, yeah, for Ryan, it's going to be extra intense because uh because he doesn't have nose hair. Thank you, Alipcia. But, uh, I just want y'all, as soon as I open this bag, this new bag, it's going to be it's going to be substantial. >> We're gonna need more cigars. >> So, here we go. This is, uh, what's the name of this, Ryan? >> There it is. I can't scream. Two vocal cord surgeries later, but yeah, these are the world's strongest smelling salts. Uh, and so here we go. Going to go ahead and tear the bag. >> Ryan, you doing okay? >> And they finished the last two episodes without Ryan. >> Okay. All right. I'm not I'm Oh. >> Oh, wow. Oh, wow. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> I'm not even close like Kyle. Wow. That is That is >> You're doing okay. >> That is pungent. >> Stings the nostrils. >> Ryan is currently throwing it up in the back. >> That's our first bounce for like vomit. >> So, here's the thing. I got to >> here. Y'all talk about something unique cuz I got to dry this off cuz it's like it's like sweating and if I keep this on my fingers, I'm not going to be able to die. >> Y'all talk about something. Don't touch it. >> You were Were you on one where you had to smell these before? >> Yeah, I And it was my It was actually my first experience with smelling salts >> and it was it's it's hard to describe how like it does feel like it hits the back of your brain stem. Like you don't even have to get a you're actually not supposed to take a big whiff. Like you just kind of >> you just kind of like >> supposed to keep your eyes kind of Yeah. You kind of waft it in front of your nose and then you just like you get and it hits you. It hits you like it's like a punch in the face. >> Is it like cocktail sauce? Like a strong cocktail sauce when you hit it like the nostrils. >> No. No. That's like child's play compared to what this stuff does. >> Hopefully I didn't say anything that's going to get us canceled. So Ryan's back. How you doing, Ryan? >> Not good. >> Okay. Did you had a bad experience? >> I had a bad experience. >> Thanks, Most >> Def. Okay. Uh, was that from Italian Job? >> Yep. Most >> check that out for the reference. >> Fun fact, uh, Most Def and I share the same birthday. >> Hey, how about that? >> I saw Most walk past a window in New York one time. So, basically, we have the same connection to Most Def. >> Yeah. >> Uh, so exactly. >> All right. So, guys, again, just remember what you just experienced. And then this is the new one that I'm taking the uh the plastic off. >> I for one am excited about this. >> Has anybody puked yet from smelling this? >> Ryan just now. >> Oh, you did puke. >> So, I just took the label off and I can smell it. >> It's like sweating. >> It's It just wants to get out. >> I can smell it from here. Oh my gosh. Can you go get some more whatever, please? >> Oh god. Why did you do that in your nose? >> It's kind of like when people are cutting peppers and then they like dig in their eyes and whatever. Ryan, hurry. Why did I do that? Thank you. Thank you. Goodness gracious. >> You went straight to >> dude. That is like almost It's one to come out here. So, uh insert joke there. >> Ryan Ryan gets to do this first, right? >> No. Uh you know what? I may be a nice guy and not force Ryan to do it. Uh but I haven't even opened it yet. I haven't Yeah. Yeah. Give me >> that is >> You got it on your fingers. >> Yeah. >> That is >> golly. to the people that are just listening to this. Uh, >> thank you. >> So, this isn't >> Oh, man. >> I I didn't even open it. I didn't even open it. It's just the baby. Yeah. Thanks for the baby wipes. All right. Here we go. >> Okay. All right. Here we go. I'll go first. >> Now, now remember, you got to keep your eyes closed and like you don't want to put it right under your nose. So, like the first time we did it, Ryan put it right under his nose. Took a big deep breath. So, I don't I forget who was to my right whenever I did it the first time. I don't know if it was you or Eustus or somebody, but I immediately like I just grabbed their arm and like because I felt like I felt it in my brain stem like it went like through my nostrils and then like exploded in the the back of my head. So, okay. All right. Here we go. Here we go. World's strongest smelling salts. >> Oh, just popping it. >> Oh, it's still it's still sealed. You can smell it. Oh my goodness. Oh, it's >> double sealed. >> Come on, weaklings. Shut your stupid mouth, Howard. Weaklings. Weaklings. >> You went pretty close. >> Yeah, you got you got close like I did last time. >> That's too close, man. >> Yeah. Dang it. >> That's too close. That's where I was last time. >> That was incredible. >> I I ain't no chunk. >> He wants to do it again. >> Okay, Ron, you got to lean in so the camera can see you, though. >> Oh my goodness. Do not spill it. For the love of God, do not spill it. Oh man, >> please don't do that to us. >> This will be the shortest podcast. >> Did you open your eyes? >> You okay? >> No, I got it right. >> Yeah, that was a lot better. >> Oh. >> Oh, man. >> Last time I sucked it in like a bong hit. It was not good. >> Okay, here we go. >> Okay, >> that was a joke. I'm gonna have to wash my hands. >> We'll get this good for the >> Doing it for the Thank you. >> You got it right up close. >> Okay, we get Howard, this is your maiden voyage with this, man. >> Dude, I'm going to Yeah. Here we go, >> dude. I have never felt more clear in my life though. >> Get a little closer. Little closer. >> Go like this. Go. >> Get Get you a sniff. Get in there. Get Get you a nice little sniff. >> There it was. There. I got him. >> Dude, your your like nasal passages just clear up. >> It goes right up to my eyes. >> This is like this is kind of analogous this is kind of analogous to the word of God. Like it stings and it hurts, but man, >> it like if you just let it do its work, it like clears your nasal passages to where you feel so much better. >> It's like the breath of God. >> Okay, get this out. >> That's a heck of an essence. I'll tell you that. >> Oh man. Wow, dude. Last time I I was like >> I want to I want to see what my face looked like. Um I can't imagine that that was Yeah. Yeah. No, you the Sunday the episode of me that dropped like Kyle already had the pictures going out to the whole Sunday school >> as Yeah. As one does. >> Yeah. It's like let's throw a horn under the bus. >> That is punch. >> I was with Jay, our lead pastor. He was sitting right next to me when I did it. He was laughing. But like I thought like I thought it was going to be something stinky, >> you know? So I was like >> because of co the same smell, but like no like stuff. >> Paul said, "Let the forging table be seasoned with smelling salts." >> Well, I will tell you, I know who's going to really enjoy what just happened here. Um, so you're the forging tableler that Joby loved, but I think there's a man that out there that loves you more than Joby, and it's my dad. So shout out to Dana Thompson watching this in law in Oklahoma. >> You know what? When is your dad going to come over and smoke a cigar with you? >> Hey, David Thompson, you have been invited by the horn. Okay, so the horn bring the scotch. >> But no, seriously, he he loves it and he he loves the banter. Uh he's like, I always like when y'all like get after each other a little bit. And that's one thing when I think back. So I think back to when we thought of this idea for the forging table. So Matt and Ryan, you were both there as we were kind of like teasing out the idea. And man, back in those early episodes, I was trying to control too much, right? I was like, "Okay, you got to say someone's name." So, I couldn't just be like, "Yeah, that's a great point." I'd have to be like, "Yeah, Matt, that's a great point." Cuz I was like, "People are going to know your names. They got to get to know your names." And I was like, "Hey, no inside jokes because the audience isn't going to understand and blah blah and all that." And I just had all these restrictions. And >> the when we started to just kind of get rid of that and flow and again, you guys kind of got more into the flow. The audience started to kind of get to know you guys and kind of pick out their favorite people they like to listen to or whatever. man, everything just got so much better whenever I was just like, "Hey, just make sure you speak into the end of the microphone. Like, make sure you know you're just you're studied up and ready to go." But yeah, when I kind of just like took my hands off of it a little bit. And you know, that's when everybody started to like it even more. >> You made a great point to me because I was like one of those guys that was like, "Oh man, we just like I went back to watch older Forging Table >> episodes and I was like, man, we just got straight into scripture. Like we didn't miss a beat. Like we just got straight into it." I was like, "I think we need to do that." and he's like, "I like the banter." And the reason I do is because people get to know us. >> They get to know who we are. >> Well, the other thing with like that's how a real Bible study >> and it is >> works. Like you don't come to Bible study with a bunch of dudes and just hop right in. There is >> a certain time frame where it's, you know, catching up with people, talking to people, you know, goofing off and then prayer requests and then you do go into the Bible. But there like like Kyle has said many times on his podcast like we're shouldertoshoulder. Yep. >> And we you can't just come in and just sit face to face and start talking. There's got to be some sort of side by side something. And I think Joby said this before, like the guys who give each other a hard time or, you know, rle each other up or, you know, make fun of their friends, like those are the dudes that, you know, got your back and like you're really close with. Like you do that with people you're really close with. So, >> no, absolutely. >> Yeah. You're being too polite in most settings to to treat people that way. But I'll also say for us, >> I mean, guys, you know, this is not like a braggadocious thing. This is a humbling thing. There are literally people, you forgot your iPad. Yeah. Um, there are literally people all over the globe that are listening to the forging table and modeling their personal Bible studies after that. >> And not to say that there's something special about us or anything. It's just there are a lot of guys that had didn't have like a plausibility structure for what a men's Bible study could be. >> Yeah. So they defaulted to what it has been for a lot of people and in a lot of churches which is okay here's your name tag if you know whatever color stickers on your name tag correlates with the table that you were forced to go to and uh go discuss the scripture and pour your heart out. So and I've talked about this on the the show before the person will remain nameless because you know I like this person and all that we just we see men's ministry a little bit differently. Uh there was somebody, we were in a particular setting and this person, you know, raised their hand and said, "Hey guys, we've got this group of men that get together at like 4:30 in the morning on Tuesdays at the church and we do Bible study and man, we just go deep with each other and you know, if you just want to like be super vulnerable with a bunch of dudes and really just like get get down with these guys and blah blah blah and all that, you know, just come on Tuesdays at 4:30 in the morning or whenever the thing was." And I remember the first thing I said to my wife on the way home is I'm not sure I've ever heard a worse pitch for something. It's like, what guy is going to go, you know what, that's precisely what I want to do. I want to be in a room full of strangers and I want to go deep. I want to go deep with all these other men and all that. And I I had a more colorful way of describing it that I that I won't say uh on the show now, but it it's just kind of one of those things to where it's like most guys that aren't wired like that cuz there there's a there's a market for guys like that that can walk into any room and start pouring his heart out and, you know, have the guy crying on his shoulders. I'm thinking of the scene from Fight Club where the guy's going to uh he's crying on meatloaf. Just go careful careful. But yeah, so he's crying into Meatloaf's uh chest and uh different things and it that there's a market for that guy. But for the guys that aren't wired that way, especially for tough guys, guys that are rough around the edges, >> being able to sit around a table and banter a little bit and you know, you got guys that are doing this around a table with a cigar and a scotch and you know, they're just they're really getting after it. It's like I don't really care what the modality is as long as you are going to the text because if you spend an hour and a half, you know, jacking around with each other and doing whatever and then you spend 10 minutes in the word, all right, there maybe needs to be an adjustment. But, you know, we're just trying to model for you guys out there what this could look like for you. I have a request like we have some really great givers here. I would love for somebody to give where we can do a filtration system in this room so we can actually smoke cigars and drink whiskey while we do this because I would I would like that. So, uh well, you know, there's a couple things I can't really announce. I'll tell you all off air, so remind me there's something I need to to tell y'all about. Um because we got something coming out coming out later um that's going to kind of scratch that itch a little bit. So, so don't let me forget. Um, but there's there's a a cool thing that happens. You know, one of one of the best things that we've done this year was a interview that I ended up calling uh skunks and crosses. It's Joby and I had just gotten back from a hunting trip and we literally sat here across the table just telling hunting stories and the, you know, road trip stories and stuff like that. And we were both enjoying we killed a bottle of uh Papy Van Winkle 20-year-old, right? While we were Yeah. Sorry. You know, deal with it, son. Life stuff. Get a helmet. But like that that was the the it was just a fun thing to where we're we're responsibly enjoying >> something that God gave to us as a social lubricant alcohol. We weren't getting drunk and we weren't worshiping at the altar of uh you know Grandpa Van Winkle or whatever. But it was just it was something a little bit different. It was just something about the taste and something about what had opened up in the conversation. And so uh there's a there's a group here in Oklahoma City. I think they're called like cigar church or something like that where they have uh they they gather on Sunday mornings and a guy kind of gives a message and guys are in this really nice cigar lounge on a you know nice nice chairs and all that and they're enjoying cigars to the glory of God as the spurge would say and um you know gosh I don't really care what you guys do. I know guys that are forging tableabling and they go ruck first. So they're all putting on rucks and they go on a hike together and they're chatting and they come back before they hop in their cars and leave and they do a little Bible say like man it does not matter how you get the word in. Just go. Yeah. >> Figure out a way. >> It's being with other men. >> If you guys want to express your feelings and cry on each other's shoulders, you can do that, too. >> Yep. Yep. That's something that if that's what you're into, uh, you go on. You go on and do it. I won't. There's always there's there's there's an exchange of stuff happening, right? And just like as Paul's going to tell us what people exchange >> for God um, in Romans, we should probably get into >> what they give up. Yeah. Like, well, >> Howard and I don't give up golf and we still talk about God when we when we golf. Uh, we pray for birdies. God's not out there. Uh, God's not hanging out anywhere near a golf course. >> Well, I'm going to give up this uh conversation. Let's get into the Bible. >> Okay. Good. Good for us. All right, Matt. 24 and 25, please. We are in Romans 1 24 and 25. >> Got it. Therefore, God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the creator who is blessed forever. Amen. So, a lot here, and it's really going to dubtail nicely into the next couple of verses as well. But I think a question that is begged here is okay God's wrath is expressed how? >> Judicial abandonment. >> And yeah, so essentially it's God's wrath is expressed by giving us what we want. But >> just this past Sunday, uh Ryan, you were teaching Sunday school on Romans 1:18 and you know, you got further into Romans 1 and talked a lot about judicial abandonment. So that' probably be a good place for us to start here. >> Yeah. So, um, judicial abandonment is basically God, uh, giving them giving the sinner up to their sins. Like there's so there's so much wrath that if we go back to, uh, um, MacArthur, and I thought I had it pulled up, but I didn't. But he talks about the worst part of wrath is judicial abandonment. That is God actually giving you up to your sin. He's saying, "Hey, you want that sin more than me. I'm going to go ahead and let you have it." I would look at it as a hardening of the heart. um like with Pharaoh, you know, God's like, "Hey, you don't want to see what I'm doing here? You want to I'll I'll let you. I I'll I'll abandon whatever I have going right now." And so that's what we kind of look at in societies like we're not, you know, most people could look at the uh the US and say that we've abandoned God. And we're going to go through verses that kind of show how we're on that path of abandonment, but we're not the first country or first civilization to do that. It happened in Rome. It happened even with the Jews. Uh I believe in habaca >> that you know God gives them over. If we look at if we look at um um the uh uh not Jehoshaphat, I should have did some more research. But if we look at some of the Jewish kings, God gives them up because they start worshiping Ball and he lets them worship Ball. And then what happens is they go into exile. Then somebody a prophet comes and a prophet tells them, "Hey, get back." back. Then everybody's like, "Yeah, we're going to get back to God." And what do they go and do again? They go and fall follow a false god. And so God abandons them again to their sin. So um and that's where we have to look at now. Like in in the teaching that I was teaching on was more about being vigilant and seeing this within churches because we'll go in and we'll see how people are abandoning truth. Um, we've seen Christian, uh, I would say popular Christian couples, one that owns a production company, kind of give into society and culture and, um, they're they're abandoning what is truth, but they're they're stuck in that abandonment. And so, at some point, God's going to give them God's going to give up give you up to your sin. And that's the worst wrath of all is the fact that it's just like, I'm not here to save you anymore. >> Yeah. >> I'm going to let you do what you want to do. So I found um some stuff with the John MacArthur judicial abandonment. >> So drawing from Romans 1:24 26 28 MacArthur teaches that one form of God's present wrath is judicial or legal abandonment. So God hands over people or a society to the sins they insist on >> removing restraining grace. He notes the Greek not even going to try which is gave them over and it can carry a judicial sense being handed over for punishment. And so MacArthur outlines, as we'll get to, sexual immorality, uh, homosexual practice, a debased mind. Um, and there's some, you know, those are the key verses, you know, Romans 1:24, 26, and 28. So that's that's MacArthur's argument for judicial abandonment. >> I just think it's interesting how he says, "Therefore, God gave him over to the lust of their hearts." And it just makes me think to impurity, the lust of their hearts. Like it just makes me think back to the the idea that truly when we look at who we are, if we take God out of it, we are broken, right? Like all these things that we see that can be attractive and excuse me without any restraint, without any moral law that he gives us, we would give into that. >> Yeah. Kyle said something interesting like restraint is a grace. >> Yeah. And we often times don't look at it that way. We look at restraint as an obstacle or as a chain. And sin is very freeing until you try to quit. >> And that seems very liberating. >> Yeah, it does. And until you try to to get past that and move on and turn away from it, then it's then it's got you. But that restraint and and I think if if we could just turn our hearts a little bit and say, "Wow, this this interaction, this divine interaction, restraint is a grace towards me." Because what's the worst feeling in the world? like as a as a son of a father who is doing stuff and you're you're like you're as a dad you're you know you're trying to shape your son into a man of God or into you know whatever you want to say and there is this like counseling and advice and this like hey I've made these mistakes you shouldn't do this but as a son I know some of my my worst feelings and like worst times with my father were when he just let me go make the mistake. And it was like you just feel terrible cuz you're like, man, you definitely told me that that was going to happen. And then it did, but you were like, >> you >> Yeah, just okay. You don't you don't believe me? Cool. Just just do it. And now dad's nowhere. And that's the worst feeling in the world. And that's kind of this picture. This God's like, okay, you're consistently like like going away from me. All right. You just throw up your hands and go, okay, I'm going to let you do it. And that's scary and terrible. >> But the other thing to look at is too is like I was looking at sin and I was looking at unrighteousness. And they're talking about unrighteousness and then we're also talking about God giving them up to the lust of their hearts which is which is sin. And like sin is a symptom of unrighteousness. And unrighteousness is the disease. >> And so when we continue to plate those symptoms and let those symptoms go, that disease is going to spread, spread and spread to a point >> it becomes us. And then God abandons us to it because we can't see it in our heart. I think I think like there's many times that I sin. Like becoming a Christian doesn't mean you're never going to sin. Like I was telling the Sunday school like you get me on the road sometimes and I may not throw up a middle finger anymore, but I'll throw out like idiot [ __ ] and my kids will hear that. >> Well, actually, what's that? >> We need to talk about something that happened here recently. >> So, here I am driving to dinner, right? There's a little group dinner thing and Ryan and Lady Horn who's lovely. Um we're on uh Broadway extension here in Ed or heading towards Oklahoma City from Edund and uh Horn drives flies by me right in his Ram Big Horn because of course what else would he drive? So he doesn't realize that he had just sped past me in and my truck is the only truck in town that looks like that truck and somehow he didn't notice. And so I just decide I'll get right in behind Ryan and we'll follow him all all the way to this thing. And so we're going to this kind of like artsy area of Oklahoma City. And so there's not like big parking lots. Everything's basically street parking and all that. And if you've ever tried to park a full-size truck in kind of one of those spots, it can kind of be a thing. So I'm behind Ryan the entire time. We're on side streets. I'm right behind him. If he's paying attention at all to his surroundings, he knows that I'm right behind him. And so he goes because you're driving and you don't really know where the spot is. And so you might recognize that it's a spot. And so you try to whip in there, but you're not driving a, you know, Volkswagen Beetle. You're driving your your big horn truck. And so he tries to pull in this parking space and he just didn't have, you know, the he didn't he couldn't cut the wheels. Yeah. You didn't have the turning radius to pull it off. >> And so as a joke, I honked the horn at him. And we're in this place where there's a lot of pedestrians and all that. And this dof immediately hang rolls down his window and he's like you mother you know that he didn't know it was me. He was ready to get into a a street fight in the middle of the po district in Oklahoma City. And so I didn't know what was funnier. Number one that he immediately tried to fight me because I honked my horn. And number two that he didn't realize it was me that was doing it. >> I didn't realize it was you. And when I rolled down my window I was going to be like patience is a virtue. You were not. There's not a single chance. That's what you were going to say cuz I could read your lips, buddy. >> I did not I did not cuss. >> You did, Ryan. >> I didn't cuss. >> You just send right now by lying. I'll tell you that much. >> I'm not lying. I did not. >> Do I need to call Rachel right now and have her get in on this? >> Would that be our first >> Can I FaceTime? Yeah. I'm going to You know what? We're doing >> No, please don't. >> What time is it? >> Oh, dang it. She's awake, too. >> Yes, she is. >> Lion, this is what you get for Lion. Okay. >> I'm not lying. I don't I did not say M. >> She's probably going to think uh she's probably think of course I want to FaceTime her. >> Oh man, she's probably not going to pick up. She's like, "Why is Kyle FaceTiming me?" >> All right. I don't want to Oh, it doesn't show her camera or >> She's probably dry. >> Come on. >> She's probably do it for the boys. Come on Rachel. >> You think she's going to pick up for you? >> If God, she better. She should know better. I've never FaceTime is dirty. The kids are already >> Rachel is so wise that she probably is like, "Oh, he's probably calling to get me on the show and I'm not doing that." >> Yeah, but he calls you back. >> Come on. >> Probably have to grab my phone to do it. >> Go grab Go grab my phone. >> Go ahead and grab it. >> Now Ryan has bought into that. >> Oh, you're going to do right from the right from the uh the iPad here. Okay. Leave that tilted right there just in case. >> I don't think I cussed. >> What? Oh, now we're now It was I definitely didn't do that. Now we're in I don't think I did, right? You're trying to buy it back here. >> I knew I was a little bit uh taken aback. >> A little taken aback, guys. A little taken aback. He says he was ready to fight. >> Oh gosh. >> Uh >> come on, Rachel. >> I know there's dead air to everybody listening out there, but guys, hopefully there's a payoff here. She'll probably say I was upset, but she she won't say I cussed. Come on. I don't think she's gonna pick up. >> He He text her. He said >> he's like, "Hey, I'm going to FaceTime you, but don't do it. >> She ain't going to lie for me. >> Whatever. Come on. Come on, Lady Horn." >> Oh, man. >> She's probably going to call my wife like, "Hey, is everything okay? Why did Kyle just FaceTime me?" >> Did you have a heart attack from the smelling salts? >> She's not going to pick up, man. It's like I'm surprised. Yep. >> She doesn't love either one of us. >> She's getting out of AAS, so that's probably >> Oh, yeah. She's out of I can already hear everybody. >> She's out of she Okay. >> Well, we got a little bit of a >> We got some time. >> Back in the next 15 minutes. >> Next week, Lady Horn will call in. >> Okay. We'll have a uh we'll have to revisit this and your lying treachery. But I don't even know what point you were making, but I just felt like that was a super appropriate time because you again what was more egregious, the fact that you were cussing and ready to fight me or that you didn't know it was me. >> I think that it was you. >> So, >> no awareness. >> What I did notice is you made me laugh. >> Yeah, he he did immediately start laughing. >> I smile. >> And I thought it was funny because I'm looking at you and you were ready to go to war there at least for a second. Well, cuz I was so frustrated because there's these people next to me that were like standing outside of the car and so you're trying to like maneuver and they're sitting there talking. I'm like, can you not move out of the way, >> you know, so I can like >> apparently not >> park this bohemoth of a vehicle. >> Well, I'm sorry to uh have, you know, stolen all your mojo and momentum that you had created, but feel free to go back to it if you remember where you where you were. >> I was just talking about sin. Like we're we're going to we're we're going to sin. And you know, um, sometimes when people honk behind me, I roll down my window and probably drop fbombs supposedly. We will find out from my wife. She will be truthful. She will tell you I'm not the best driver. And I like to point out my sin because you know what? I'm not a perfect person. I'm the most depraved probably at this table. But um, >> you're not a good driver. Did you just admit you're not a good driver? >> I said I'm not a good person. >> No, you said you're not a good driver. >> You said a lot of people honk at you, so you have to flip them. >> No, I don't say a lot of people honk. Nobody really honked at me. He honked at me. I think that's what made me mad. >> You said You said I think and I quote, "My wife's not going to lie to lie for me. I'm not a good driver. >> I don't have the best attitude when I drive. Like I am." >> That's No, >> she always says she always says you're a change agent. She always says when I drive I'm like driving as a competition. >> So like >> you got to beat everybody else to the destination. >> It's the truth. And like yes, I'm not I hope my insurance company isn't listening to this right now. >> Well, >> but uh but yeah, so the point I was trying to make is that we sent but do we feel conviction when my wife gets on me or Kyle says, "Hey man, >> you almost dropped the fbomb or you did drop the fbomb." Like he's you see how he's getting more comfortable with the idea that I got him dead to rights. It was definitely didn't happen. I may have done that. Well, it some could have happened in a parallel universe. No, it's not a parallel universe. Like I'm >> Were you given over to the lust of your flesh? >> I've given over to the lust of my flesh. >> The lust of your heart is that of an angry. >> I just told everybody in in uh Sunday school that like if anything I crave more is revenge. >> Like I'm like revenge is a dish best served cold and I love it. Like I would like it's like it got so bad before I was like, you know, like before Christ changed me, but like I'd mow my lawn and be like, "Oh man, how would I get revenge on this person?" You know, like it was pretty bad. Wait, >> like >> I'm I'm not tracking here. Okay, >> you're mowing your lawn. You're getting revenge on your lawn or you're thinking about something >> about something like somebody wronged me like two years ago. >> How would I go about this? >> Ryan sees a blade of grass that reminds him of this dude that he ran to. Oh man, I would love to run that person over with my >> I see like I see like a baseball and I'm like, "Oh, I remember that guy threw a baseball on my head when I was 14." You know, be like >> Which is not cool. That's not cool. >> If you're listening to this right now, you should apologize to Ryan. How >> dare. But no, but that that's the thing. It's like it's like we're always we're going to sin at some point, but it's do we feel that conviction? And when we don't feel that conviction and we don't feel the Lord talking to us, that's a scary thought. >> You know, like if if my wife comes calls up here and was like, "Yeah, you dropped the fbomb." >> Yeah, I wouldn't be convicted on that. I was convicted on it. That's why I smiled at him. And like, you know, I was just like, but that's the thing. It's like if we don't feel that conviction, that's the scariest thought I can think of. >> Yeah, that's that's kind of what he's describing here. There is like a macro and a microcosm of this of this thing that he's saying because it can be a very personal thing like you're saying, like you do something enough and you maybe you you do it and you feel conviction, but then you man, I feel bad. But then you do it again and again and again and then the Holy Spirit just stops. >> Stops. That's a quenching of the Yeah. And then like you're right in that you're right in that verse. And like what's even worse is like coming to that point where you're in that you're losing that conviction and then you start making excuses for why it's okay. >> Yeah. you're justified. >> Like that's like you you you rolled down your window and called me an mfer for honking at you and I could justify it and be like, "Well, you made me mad or you deserve this or you know, cussing is really not that bad in the Bible or whatever." You know what I'm saying? But >> you could try to ring around whatever you want, but in the end, your heart is darkened and hardened to what your sin is. And like when you don't feel conviction of that or some sort of embarrassment if somebody brings it up, you know, like >> or if somebody's not willing to call you out. >> That's why that's why I have my brother right here. >> Yeah. If your default mechanism is to immediately start lying or you know, just >> I wasn't I didn't think I said I think I did. >> I didn't even That's your guilty conscience talking right now cuz I didn't say you. I was just talking just talking. >> No, because I know you know what you're alluding to. >> Idiot. But the point is is you've got to really work on your driving. >> I do. >> You're a bad driver. You admitted that, too. >> And you're saying that you didn't. >> That's on record. >> Yeah, we literally. >> So, we're going to hold you accountable. >> I also told everybody in Sunday school that I went Lutheran, but it was I lied. It was Presbyterian. I just forgot. >> So, >> how do you forget that? >> Well, because we were talking about some family members that were Lutheran the night before, and I was like talking about how there was reformed Lutheran >> and whatnot. And then when we were talking about it, I was like I said I think I I'm pretty sure I said I was I went Lutheran for three months, but the truth is I went Presbyterian. I didn't lie on purpose. I just misspoke like I misspoke about being a bad driver. >> That's a miss misspe happen. Not a big deal. >> I misspoke one on not driving very well. I drive very well. I just drive with an attitude. >> I feel like we need to do a driving contest of some kind. Maybe do this at Andreddy's. Go to some nice fancy go-kart place and uh just kind of see who wins. We can do it Mario Kart style. >> Let's do it. I don't where they there's like a park where they have like Mario Kart drag racing where the entire thing is like a Mario Kart >> scene or something. >> That sounds pretty awesome. >> Open in Oklahoma City, but I don't know if it has anything to do with Mario. >> No, there's like it's like Universal. It's like Mario Land or something like Universal Studios or whatever. >> They had Mario Kart there. >> Our Sunday school did a uh getaway to Dallas one time. You weren't there, but we went to Andrey's. It was fun. >> Mario Kart. Play Mario Kart in real life. Oh, wow. >> Okay, >> this has got to be a thing. >> This has uh devolved. >> All right. Super Nintendo World at Universal Studios Hollywood. >> Oh, forging tables going to Hollywood. >> Yeah, I think I think Yeah, look. You can Oh, yeah. They've got like actual carts or whatever. >> Yeah, >> like the little Mario carts and Oh, shoot. Here we go. >> Can you throw turtle shells at people? >> That was my question. >> My kids would eat that up. Uh this is like a lame depiction of it thanks to internet but yeah. Okay. So that's like a real place a real place you can go. >> Well since we were driving down that road we should drive down the new road of how we uh exchange truth for God's. >> We'll just leave the transitions up to Matt. >> None of us are good at it. But I do want to say this as well. Um it's a good effort. >> So with the different you know giving us up to the lust of our hearts. Who is the the entity or person that you know helps us towards the lust of our hearts? It's Satan. But one of the most pernicious things about the temptation that Satan and his minions provide for us is that he'll tempt you in the direction of your sinful bins in your heart or soul. Right? He'll tempt you. He'll keep pulling you. He'll keep pulling you. He'll keep pulling you. >> And then when the the veil is removed or when you are found out or what's done in the dark is brought to the light, who is the first one to start shaming you? Right. Yeah, it's the accuser, >> right? And so it's it's a very very important thing that just kind of says like how good Satan is at this because he's the one that's drawing you down that path. >> You're willingly going down that path and then once the facade is gone, you're stuck. And it's like, well, yeah, he he didn't do that. You did, but he just kind of helped you down the primrose path. >> Yeah. What do you think they mean by he says they exchanged the truth about God? I mean when they're when we go back to what we were talking about in 18 through 23 it's like look the the truth about God is made plain to them >> right >> so inherently we all have this truth >> right but we are exchanging this truth about God for a lie >> and whatever the lie is a lie of a worldview that you've bought into a lie of the accuser right I'm not good enough like no one's ever going to love me I don't need to live like there's nothing to live for and you exchange that truth for a lie. Or it could even be a less pernicious sounding lie where it's like I'm exchanging the truth of God for the lie that science can save me, that scientism can explain everything. It's kind of like back to our like last week talking about like you have to be educated into atheism >> and like you're like you know it's written on your heart that God is real and that God created the world and God exists but you've exchanged that for this education and that like people would people wouldn't view that as a an inherently evil thing. education is good, but you've exchanged the truth about God for the lie that well, none of that exists because I read that in a book or my professor say has taught me that. >> And it like Kyle said, it's not always this like super evil, sinister thing. It can be a very subtle seeming thing, too. >> You were you were talking about how our society, right, we've gone from a quote Christianity nation to where we are right? >> You know, look at our college education, right? What have they been indoctrinated with? >> Yeah. >> From professors about >> even in our elementaryaries and, you know, schools about evolution, right? >> It's like I talked about in modern culture, like what is what is the big thing? If you're going to go get a book on self-help or self anything, what's the big thing? You're good enough. >> Yeah. Affirmations. >> It's affirmations. And so, we exchange the truth about God for a lie. and worshiped and served a creature rather than the creator. And so we know what God's righteousness is. It says it here in this book. But because we love ourselves so much, we think we exchange his truth for our own truth, which is what what do they call that nowadays? >> My truth. My truth. Uh >> oh man, I should standpoint epistemology. >> Standpoint epistemology is a good one. U just the millennial thing of my truth. So, you know, it's like truth is relative now. You know, like there is no truth. Like if you look at our society now, truth is relative. Truth is what you want it to be, what you want it to be, what you want it to be, not what God wants wants it to be. And so now we're now we're worshiping the creature. And the creature is sin. And the sin is ourselves. >> Well, let's expand this out just a little bit more to get into what Paul is alluding here to. So Howard, go ahead and read uh Romans 1:26 and 27. I'm reading in the ESV. So, for this reason, God gave them over to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature, and men likewise gave up na natural relations with women, and were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty of their error. So here we see the apostle Paul is showing us okay what is the most represented most representative of our fall of our fallen nature and the first example specific example he gives is homosexuality right so notice how he doesn't give samesex attraction here >> because being same-sex attract attracted is not sin right the same could be said about somebody that is drawn to alcohol. They're drawn to drunkenness, someone that's drawn to violence, someone that's drawn to pride. The temptation and the draw of something is not sin. It's when we make the decisions to not separate ourselves from those sins or those sinful actions. And so again, there's there's not a a category here being given by Paul of someone that is, hey, Lady Gaga, just I was just born that way, you know, and that that's our entire worldview is I was just kind of born that way. And so this is just a very very specific declaration of how perverse we are. And the first example used is one of the top examples now that a lot of apostate churches or or you know apostate ministries or ministers are using as a hey we know we just need to love on these people and we're not really going to talk about the sin of of depravity with them or the specificity of of how sinful their desires are. when Paul starts his his argument and this is going to go on for another again this is a letter Yeah right they broke it up later but this is going to go on for a while but the first thing he starts in on is homosexuality >> well he's wanting to show what is natural you know like natural relations are between a man and a woman why because they procreate and create more life and so if you do unnatural things it doesn't lead to life and so he even starts with women because women are considered at this point in time like the like the mothers like they don't want to put their kids in an unnatural path. I think MacArthur said it this way. They don't want to put them into unnatural path. They want to be mama bears. So they're they're not going to want their kids to go down >> down this road. A little different than nowadays. You know, they're not, you know, people wear these as a purse now with their kids. Um but but that's what he wanted to show. He's like even women are doing this. And at that time that would be unheard of. That's like that's like why would a woman ever do that? >> Men, we can see that because men are carnal and everything like that, but the fact is he wanted to really point out here that this is unnatural. And when we go away from the natural, we're not being truthful to what is truth. >> I think as well when you talk about unnatural relations, that's against nature, right? So that's essentially what that means is it's against nature. And so I I thought about this in the context of the argument over gay adoption and surrogacy and all those things where you have these gay couples that are getting these designer babies and these designer surrogates and then they're bas basically just paying a woman a convenience fee to steal her child at the end of the rainbow kind of a thing. And regardless of your worldview homosexuality doesn't make sense. And this is what I mean because if you are a believer right you believe in God. You believe the Bible is authoritative. It's laid out all throughout the Bible. There's not a single place where homosexuality is seen as something that is a net positive. It is always seen as immoral against God, right? Against created order, all the things, right? But even if you're an atheist, it makes no sense because, you know, two men cannot produce offspring. And again, if if if all this is not all this Bible stuff isn't true, then we're all just highly evolved chimps that figured out language, pants, and fire. And like none of this technically matters. The only thing that matters is the propagation of our species. That's the only thing that matters. >> And so in that context, two men cannot do that. Two women cannot do that without significant intervention. Typically involving the gametes of the opposite sex with which they don't want to have conjugal union with. Right? And so I think that that's a very important distinction that people don't really like waiting into because regardless so when people start making the argument like well why wouldn't you want this child to go into a loving family regardless of if it's two dads or two or two moms it's like well wait a minute I didn't decide that if you believe in God decided that man and man and woman and woman couldn't have a family right >> and if you believe in just nature and no God it's like well then nature decided that. So, it's like here's part of the trade-off. If you want to have butt sex with dudes and you're a dude, or if you're a woman and you want to have a sexual relationship with a woman, fine. You just don't get to have kids. >> Yeah. >> Like, can't that just be like how Oh, >> Rachel Horn. No. Give that. >> Oh, man. >> This is fantastic. >> The big smile. >> Hi. Hi, Lady Horn. >> Hello. >> All right. We got to make sure the volume can hear you in my microphone. Okay. Uh, we need you to settle something for us here. You look lovely tonight, by the way. Uh, shush. Shush your mouth. All right. So, um we we we need you to settle something for us. So, do you remember that night when uh our group got together at the PO and I'm driving behind y'all the entire time and Ryan doesn't notice and he's pulling into a parking space. He's having some trouble and I honk my horn at him. >> How could I forget? >> Yeah. How? She said, "How can she forget? Where's the speaker on this thing?" Okay. Okay. It's on the other side here. Um so, um Ryan seems to believe that he didn't say any bad words. >> Did I say any exploitives, babe? Shh. I'm in control. I'm the captain now. Um, so you are the sh. Um, so do you remember if he said any wordy derds? If there were any uh things that he probably wouldn't say in front of our Sunday school. Do you remember that happening? >> I can I honestly do not think he said any anything bad. I think there were some like grunts and angry like like turning of the head, but I don't think he actually spoke anything terrible. >> And that's just the Lord working on my heart. >> Whipping around of the head and maybe his hand came halfway up but not all the way up. >> Halfway up in a very nefarious like threatening manner. Correct. >> Oh, he was his body language said something but his mouth did not say anything. So, so what did his body language say? If you had to guess, >> um, I think he knew it was a date night if he stopped himself before he said what his body language was saying. >> But if you had to translate his body language, uh, well, I mean, just what would you what would you say? No, no, this is a a family show. >> Uh, well, there were there were fighting words fighting to come out, but but he he fought them and he won. >> Okay. >> I didn't win. The Lord won. You've helped us uh settle a debate. I'm sorry. I'm sure this was very awkward for you, but you just made your debut on a dawn of life a man's podcast. Congratulations. >> She nailed it. >> Bucket list. I don't >> bucket list. All right, lady. Thank you. >> I mean, today redemption r a c. >> I would like an apology from you, Mr. uh undaunted.life. >> Um >> that I did not I knew I didn't say cuss words. I knew I didn't, but I was like, >> I'm going to go ahead and translate for her. She said you cussed with your body. That's what she said, right? That's basically what she said. >> Seemed to be the implication. >> Yeah. She said, well, it's called self-control, guys. Is it? >> Yeah. I body language may have not been as great, but I didn't like get out of my car. >> You showed some restraint. >> I showed some restraint and I knew it was a date night. >> I think Horn was vindicated here. >> I think I was >> I think he was vindicated. >> Vindicated. I think. Can Can I get Can I get an apology, please? >> Uh, what do I need to apologize for? >> For lying to the audience and saying that I said >> I'm going to pull a Ryan. Uh, I don't remember it the same way. Uh, I just misremember what I said. >> I didn't want to call you a liar in front of your own audience cuz I knew I didn't say it. >> You know what? That's just my It's just my truth. >> But here's the thing. Here's the thing. I wouldn't put it past me sometimes if I did do that. though I'm not going to act like I'm >> Can Okay, but can we at least all admit that >> Ryan wasn't so consistently off the track that God gave him up to the desires of his >> like what Paul is talking about in the verses that we're discussing which we should get back to. >> Yeah, we probably should. But but Ryan, hey, I'm sorry I went out over my skis and accused you of something that >> may or may not have happened. >> Hey, I forgive you and I'm just leaving the door open. what my kids say to me, leaving the door open. >> Transitioning back to this, I wanted to talk about this last week, but verse 22, it says, "Claiming to be w claiming to be wise, they became fools." >> So, I think probably everybody that listens to this podcast has probably seen what is what is a woman, right? So, I remember what is a woman. So in one of the interviews um what is the guy that is Matt Walsh is interviewing one of these specialists right and you can see specialist >> this guy literally believes what he is saying >> and he he acts so brilliant that like no like Matt you don't understand like this is the condescending and it just it just jumped out to me right then and there it's just like that poor person man whatever he claims to be it has become a fool but thinks he's brilliant >> educated themselves into imbecility. >> Yeah. And so >> to the fact that you don't know what a woman is. >> Yes. >> I mean just think about but but really like so and Jordan Peterson has talked about this as well to where it's like there's no more fundamental fact than sexual dimorphism within mammals, right? Like the sexual dimmorphism. Like if I can convince you that a mammal, right? We don't even have to take it into the world of humans, but that a mammal could change its sex. >> Yeah. >> From from male to female or or female to male. If I can convince you of that, I can convince you literally of anything. And that is what is so nefarious about the the trans movement and all the things they're in is because when you when you see people and here's the other thing is there are people that know they know that this is BS but they will stand in front of cameras and microphones and they will argue the exact opposite and they will call you a heartless bigot if you say hey we shouldn't cut the healthy breast tissue off of little girls. Hey, we shouldn't shave off parts of their thighs or arms and sew it into this phallic-l like thing and and then sew it onto the top of their vagina that we've closed up with stitches, right? That's a terrible thing. We should not butcher these girls in this way. We shouldn't cut off the healthy tissue of boys that are gender confused. That is not what is helping these individuals. And these people will just stand up. Some are true believers, right? Some like some of the people that we talked about. And other people are just there. There's the conscious nefarious actors and then there's the useful idiots. The people that'll just they want to go along to get along. They want to be known for what they're for, not for what they're against. They think they're on the right side of history and they just kind of throw it out there. So, I remember um Malcolm Gladwell, >> he he he came out publicly and he did this forum and this was in the height of, you know, the trans stuff and all that and he was basically, you know, advocating for trans transing the kids and for transgender medication and blah blah blah. But then he came out here not that long ago basically saying, "Yeah, man. And I was cowtowed and into doing all that and you know I really uh never really believed it but it was just something that I I just I wish I hadn't have done that. If I could go back I would change my opinion and all that. And a bunch of conservatives actually came out and were like good for you Malcolm Gladwell. You're on the right side of history now. It's like no no no actually Malcolm you get nothing because you waited until the cultural winds had shifted completely on the trans issue. Well, he's not the only one, >> right? Because of things like what is a woman? And then you come out when it's now the popular accepted opinion that it has been for the rest of human history except for this small little, you know, time period over the last few years. Like, I'm not going to give you any credit for that. >> Yeah. like the people that you know that lauded you know the University of Pennsylvania for you know like retracting Leah Thomas or or Will Thomas records and >> records like you didn't do that because you thought because if you thought it was right you'd have done that >> a long time ago. >> Yeah. >> And Yeah. Yeah. So there's lots of people who have who have done that. >> Can can we all just like really point out here >> and just agreement on this >> that if we read 29 through >> we're not there yet. We Yeah, we hit. >> No, >> no, not quite. We got 26 26. Yeah, if we read 26 and 27, >> the Bible's not whispering about this. >> It's really not. And you know what? You know what also jumps out at me? Like 27 ends with uh receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. >> Yeah. And like does that did anybody else take away from that some like there's obviously eternal consequences for that but like the worldly consequences like AIDS or like STDs like there is I mean there's worldly consequences for sin and right here it it's to me it seems like Paul is talking I mean he's obviously not talking about he did Paul didn't know what AIDS was but there are there is a due penalty for that. >> Yeah. So, I I want to we'll get to verse 28 next week, but we've kind of already mentioned it, and I want to double click on it again here, which is that, you know, and this is straight from the Crossway expository commentary on verse 28. >> God withdraws the restraint of a mind steered by common grace. Grace that causes many people to live generally moral and decent lives. So, when you participate in homosexual acts, right? don't not homosexual tendencies or thoughts or whatever, but when you participate in the actions, the sinful actions of same-sex attraction and those types of things, like God is withdrawing that normal restraint in you that would keep you from doing other things. So, that's where you have people that will get into diseases. You have people that are in these communities. A lot of them have substance abuse issues as well, which is not just for homosexual communities. Obviously, that is reflective of of heterosexuals as well. But you have these people like again once that has been removed the decency of not having sex with someone of the same sex and same gender as you. Then it's like there's nothing that you won't try from that point forward. Whether it be chemical or philosophical or anything else because the the problem I forget who said it but it's the problem with atheism is not that you believe in nothing. It's that you can believe in everything. Like I can convince you of everything at this point. There is a snowball effect of that cuz there's like like um like Casting Crown said, it's a slow fade, but then it's not until one point it's not and you just snowball. And I think that's what you're hitting on right there is like >> it it kind of it kind of slowly creeps and then at a certain point it just it just all just tumbles down the hill in one big ball. >> I think Sproul said something about that either Sproul or MacArthur. If you look at every every um society where this has taken over, there's been a fall. Camille Paglia is actually the the one she studied this and she's an ardent atheist by the way. But she studied all these great cultures, the Babylonians, the Greeks, the Romans. And what did they all have in common towards the end of their empires? A lot of things, but one of the main things they got they got obsessed with sex. They got obsessed with gender roles. They got obsessed with the switching of gender roles and and gender identities and things like that. And then these these, you know, entities, I guess you could call them, or these these groups or these powers, they failed. And so, uh, that's where we're at as the greater West, not just America. >> No, sexual immorality, I think MacArthur did say, he's like, sexual immorality is what led >> to the fall of these civilizations. And it's not just homosexual sex, I just just a part of it, but like sex outside marriage sex uh >> it's the confusion, right? It's the >> pornography use and everything. Like we and I I really feel like it was really bad in the 90s and the 2000s cuz like I mean it just sex was everywhere and and like we just kind of since then just moved on to like now now you watch American Pie nowadays and people are like whoa whoa that was horrible. >> But like when we watched it then we're like oh this is hilarious you know but like I if I did watch it again I'd probably be mortified. on the other side of that in in a lot of ways that's kind of tame >> compared to some of the things that are that are put out there >> um too like yes you can look at that and go oh wow why like yeah why did we why were we okay with that but at the same time like we've also progressed to a a worse place where we are talking about mutilating and castrating kids and sexual identity being just whatever you want it to be and you can be a cat um and that's just perfectly fine like and that's not the that lady that's not the Jewish lady is it? Okay. No, Alistister Beg he when he goes through Romans he has a he he he mentions a book done by a Jewish scholar and she's a lady who like goes deep into that. Um so I don't know if that was the same person but >> well maybe Alistister should read this section of scripture as well while he's hanging out at weddings. And man, >> I love Alistister. >> But he needs to repent of that one. He missed he missed. >> Like that's the thing where I'm like where I've kind of learned about like speaking truth and love. Like >> I know Alistister's heart in that is like he's wanting to show grace and everything. Even though I think he's very much wrong, you know, but his heart's in the right place. He's he's not trying to he's trying he's not trying to >> I I wouldn't say his heart's in the right place because what he's doing is he is okaying other Christians going to ceremonies that is celebrating sin and weddings fundamentally are not private affairs. They're public affairs. >> No. And I and I agree with you 100%. But I'm saying his heart behind it isn't trying to change the wave of of of what God calls marriage. >> I wonder if he would take that back. No, he's tripled down. He's doubled and tripled down like that. He's basically taken the position of if you don't agree with me, you're a bigot or you're wrong. >> I don't think he's taken. Are you Are you kidding? Have you not been paying attention to what he's been saying? >> I have not. I All I know is that as Vodie Bacham says, like it's a theological test. >> Oh, for sure. >> And that that is 100% true. Those types of things and that's just a good example of it. That's a theological test for you. >> And you you have to preddecide. >> Yeah. You have to you have to know what you're going to say and know what you're going to do there. You pointed this out like you know >> a lot of pastors kind of forget they are shepherds at the end of the day and so he has his flock that was was part of his you know the the specific flock >> but because of media >> he has a wider flock like we talked about MacArthur with grace to you and the radio stuff and all that. So he had Grace Community Church which was his flock that he's going to be uh judged for uh according to the writer of Hebrews. But then there's the greater flock of the people that listen to him and take take what he's saying as gospel whether they should or not. And so that was one of the most because like you know you you mentioned earlier you know you basically alluded to a quote by JD Greer like I'm not going to yell about things that the Bible only whispers about. It's like I think Sodom and Gomorrah was pretty loud. I think uh Paul is writing pretty loudly here by elucidating homosexuality here from the beginning. That's the thing with hang on. So like but but at the same time with with someone like Alistair Beg is it's like he's saying he's basically saying like oh it's not that big a deal go to a gay wedding and take them a present whereas no what I've said from the beginning and I I've maintained this since I was in my 20s and had a friend that was actually dealing with this exact scenario. >> He's like my two best friends that I grew up with ended up being gay and now they're ending up being gay for each other and they're getting married. They're going to ask me to be a groomsman or something like that. What should I do? And even in my, you know, the truncated wisdom of a early 20s, you know, uh, guy or whatever, I said, "You cannot go to the wedding, but you should be the first, you and your wife should be the first people to host them at your home after the wedding, not as a celebration, but just to love on them and be a part of their life and all those types of things." That's the posture that Beg should have gone with. >> And I think you you're 100% correct on that. And I think with what Beg was trying to go with was trying to show that hospitality and showing a loving Christian hospitality, but he did it in the wrong way. You shouldn't show that loving Christian hospitality and participating in what God calls is wrong. You know, it's not like, "Hey, my neighbors are throwing an orgy. They want me to come by. I'm going to come by with a bottle of wine and say hello because I want to be hospitable." You know, I'm not going to partake into the orgy, you know? But maybe I will be like, "Hey, why don't you guys come over and we'll make you dinner, you know?" But but that's the thing. It's just I and and same thing with JD. I think their hearts are in >> JD Greer. >> Yeah. JD Greer. I think their hearts are trying to be in the right place. I don't think they're >> they're not trying to lead people down the wrong path on purpose. Like >> I think there's blind spots there. >> Yeah. Yeah. There are blind spots and emotions that come to play there. But I to Kyle's point, there's a big difference between saying something wrong and then doubling down on it. Matt Chandler is a perfect example like he you know his you know DEI stuff like >> he has said like he would take that back. He wished he wouldn't have said it but like that's a big difference. There's a big difference in that heart posture to doubling down on what you're saying over and over like an Andy Stanley has done. >> And so I I wonder so when you talk about it basically being a theological litmitness test or what how did how did you say it? Bony. He just says it's theological test. >> Okay. So, like theological test. I I have an honest non-gotcha question for uh Alistair Beg. Uh because he specifically we were in the context of a wedding ceremony and he said Christians should go. Would he go to a ceremony where a woman is celebrating her abortion? >> I think he would say no to that. But why? Because you shouldn't celebrate that. No. And I'm I'm not I'm not trying to excuse what he's saying, but I think I think that's what I'm saying. Like there are blind spots. And I think sometimes you try to put things in their own category. And as and I'm I'm not a pastor, so I'm not I don't know what it is to be in the shoes of a pastor. And like that that there's a lot of pressure and there's a lot of um accountability that is coming towards you. But I I think that's a good question to ask somebody because >> he's you're not you're thinking about it in different categories. Abortion is different than the gay marriage. But one second. So the thing that's important about this is in this exact moment that that question is so important cuz here's why. >> Because if if you use the people that argue this way, I don't argue this way, but I'm going to use their tactic here. Abortion is never explicitly talked about in the Bible. Murder is. So abortion is a type of murder, but murder is explicitly as something that you can't do. That is sinful. You shouldn't shed the blood of man. But abortion specifically is not listed. homosexual acts is explicitly listed everywhere. It's not alluded to, right? And so that's the thing that I find to be extra bad about this about people that take this position. It's because they want to be patted on the head by people. So, sorry. Go ahead, Ryan. >> Well, I'm just saying like the maybe the question I would ask Beg rather than would you go and participate or celebrate an abortion, would he go to a wedding where it's being it's me this time. >> It better be your wife. No, it's a wireless caller. >> You want to bring them on the show? You want to see? Answer. See what See what they want. See what they're selling. >> It's a 858 >> here. Just answer. >> Oh, dad gonna answer. >> That could have been fun. Go. >> Um, but no, like would he go to a wedding that's uh that's being put on by somebody who's a Satanist and would he go and participate and bring a gift to that wedding? You know, rather than a wedding part, you know, being done by uh a preacher, but like let's say it's being done by a Satanist. Would he go to that wedding? >> Yeah. I think that the difference here is whether he said yes or no to a question like that. It's like the closest we can get as humans to understanding the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross and how that should lead to how we can port our lives is us married to a woman because Jesus is going to be he sacrificed his life for his bride and he's going to come back and get his bride >> for us on this side of glory. The closest we can get to understanding the sacrificial love of Jesus is by loving our wives in a sacrificial way. And so I just don't see any way that Alistar Beg can square that circle of what he said. And we talked earlier, it was a week or two ago about RC Sproul giving John MacArthur this great compliment of if you can take him to the text and prove to him that his position is wrong, he will let the text speak and he will change his position based on the text. How could Alistar beg use any part of the Bible to justify pointing his flock? Because I guarantee you Alistar Beg has had people in his flock that have gone to gay weddings and have taken a present based on what Alistair Beggus said because he gave them permission to do blind spots, man. I think it's a blind spot. >> Do you think it's a blind spot or do you think he made that decision based on if I say this, I'm going to be extra, you know? I he doesn't strike me as a guy that would would need the applause of culture. It's just like, bro, what what were you thinking? >> So, is it kind of a blind spot to your point or is it that like, man, I don't want to offend? >> I think it's a blind spot that he has. And I think the actually the more important question or the better question instead of the abortion question would be, are you are you open to to knowing that you're wrong on this? Are you open to being wrong? And would you would you would you consider that? And that's a hard thing for some of these guys. And that's where I I try to have more more grace for for pastors is because >> I like like you said about Chandler and and he he's even said it to us cuz everybody throws me under the bus when Chandler's around. So >> you throw yourself under the bus when Chandler's around. But uh >> I missed I missed that bus. I didn't see it. >> Oh yeah, you weren't there. So Rachel was uh Rachel's been a big fan of Chandler for like a long time. And uh I was like in my cage stage discernment days and I was like I saw stuff on DEI. I was like you might want to be careful of that guy. And so we finally meet him the first time and Kyle goes this is Ryan's wife Rachel. She loves you. Ryan doesn't like you at all. >> Oh I remember. >> I just kind of pulled the pin on the grenade and walked >> he's like what? And so like then we finally talked about it the second time he was out here. So but uh but I do have to point out to him I am not a contrarian. So, uh >> I I think this speaks to like a larger thing like we should be praying for our pastors. They are they are human. They are they are a fallen nature. They've just been chosen to lead flocks >> and but they're still doing it from a flawed standpoint, >> but they need to be humbled. >> I I agree with that. >> And they need to be humble and you need to listen to your congre. >> Well, that's my point. A part of our prayer should be for the humility of our pastors to like to seek that >> to seek truth but to be humble in that. Um, but I think I mean I think we should also give them some grace. Like if we're if we're judged on our our worst moment than >> So here's here's the grace that I would extend and then we got to wrap this up. The grace that I would extend to to Alistister Beg, he is not in the mark and avoid category for me. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. He is in the mark and pay real close attention to category because as we talked about it at dinner um when Gracie met Truthy 2012 sermon by Andy Stanley >> 2012 people >> I listened to that sermon the week it came out I took notes on it just like I did every week would take notes on Andy Stanley's sermon would take notes on Matt Chandler sermon notes on Craig Rochelle sermon and I just had this like note that I had in my my Google Drive or whatever that I kept going it was completely over my head that he was getting on that. There was a man that that left his wife for another man and he and this gay dude were serving at one of the satellite churches of or one of the campuses of North Point. And the problem that the staff had was not that this dude was in a homosexual relationship that Yeah. The problem that Stanley had specifically from his sermon was not that this dude was currently having sex with another dude and in a homosexual relationship. It was the fact that the other man, right, he wasn't divorced when from his wife yet. And so they had a big issue with the fact that this guy was in a new relationship and not divorced from his wife. >> Wasn't the forest through the >> trees. It just it was a shocking shocking level. But a guy like Alistar Beg, >> it does make me pay closer attention to the things that he says cuz it's like if he's willing to capitulate on something like this >> at the latter sage stage of his career, it's like sheesh man. Like what other issues are we going to have? >> Even our passers are fallible. So, this is a call to to stay in the word and and to put what they are telling you up against the scripture and the word of God because even even pastors are fallen men who can get it wrong. So, if you're not in the word now, like get in the word, get into a a study group and and study the word. And if it's if it's something like that, have speak truth and love. Like have some grace for your pastor. Go ask the questions, but come with some humbleness just so he can >> be open to the humbleness. Just remember, if you're speaking the truth in love, the truth has to come, too. So, guys, we're going to have to leave our discussion there. So, we appreciate it. We are going to be starting next week with Romans 1:28. So, make sure you are read uh just go ahead and read through the the end of Romans 1, but we're going to leave it there for today. But before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost. Adam Life mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Just wanted to mention Logos Bible Software, best Bible software on the planet. You can get it, but get it at a discount. The link is in the show notes. Also, Crossway forging table starter set. It's a fivebook set that you can use for your small group. Get the entire set at 50% off discount. All the instructions are in the show notes. And also, we are donation based ministry. So, if you want to know how we have electricity and how we can get this out to everybody out there and how we can get it edited and all the different things, it's because we have guys just like you giving 20 bucks a month, 50 bucks a month, 150 bucks a month to help us equipment around the globe push back darkness. We would like you to hop on board, consider being a donor. Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five-star review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@undanton.life. That's info@undanton.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www.undton.life. And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is their song Perpeta, which is off their self-titled debut album on Faceown Records. The links are in the description. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the Lion of Judah. [Music]