[Music] This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. Welcome back to the forging table. The mission of Adant to Life is equipping men to push back darkness. I almost said I almost said push back content. And in my head, I'm like, that doesn't make any sense at all. So, let's just keep going with it. We're here to equip men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. At the forging table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience by digging into God's word. And we're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with us. Out of order. That's Matt. That's Ryan. That's Howard. But we're going to be getting into verse 18 today. But uh I very rudely cut off Ryan last week because Ryan doesn't understand the moment. He just can't really like understand and read the room like when it's the time to pipe up and when it's the time to ruin Matt's outro. And so what we're going to do is we're going to allow you to do the intro because you had something you wanted to get into on 16 and 17, but I cut you off because I'm driving the ship. I'm the captain now. But here I'm transferring the captain's hat to you. There you go. Hit it. >> Okay. So Matt beautifully ended Romans 16 and 17. There was something I wanted to add because you add you said is there anything else anybody wants to add. And so I just thought it was when we look at Romans 16 it says for the p for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes to the Jew first and also the Greek. And that's one thing that I wanted to point out that the gospel was for everyone. And I I I want to allude back to what I talked about last week when uh the uh Gentiles came to visit Christ and they were talking to Philillip and um and Andrew and then that was the time when Christ was like, "Hey, my this is this is the end of my journey. This I know what we need to do." Um and that was when the he knew that he was going to save the Gentiles as well. You know, that was God's plan from that was their plan from the beginning. And so that's how powerful the gospel is is not only was it for the Jew first, but it's also for the Gentiles. So, it's for us. And if you're uh if you're any of us at this table, we're all Gentiles, you know. So, >> it's just it's just I thought a beautiful way to to to look at the uh end of that. >> And the text does say Greek, but you know, they're talking about Gentiles. So, it's the it was, you know, the the chosen uh people first or the Jew and then to the Gentiles. And so, um anything Go ahead. >> I think I NLT that was a New Living Translation I was reading. >> What does the NLT say? >> Uh it says the Jew and the Gentile. >> Okay. Yeah. ESV says Greek and there's some other translations that that say but that that's essentially what we're looking at there. Um today we're going to get into our discussion by looking at verse 18. And so and guys again if you've been listening to this for any length of time I mean we spent an hour on a couple of verses and there's still there's still going to be meat left on the bone even though we're going pretty slow but we're going to start with 18. So Matt, if you can just read verse 18 for us. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. So a lot here right out of the gate. So we go from verse 17 which is God's righteousness. Now verse 18, we're going to God's wrath and we're going to be in Wrathville until verse 321. Right? So chapter 3 verse 21 where we switch back to God's righteousness. Right? And so as as I talked about last week, he's not going to leave any stone unturned and give anybody any quarter. He's he's doing, you know, no quarter November when it comes to to this part. He is not giving any quarter to to anybody with with where he's going in the text. And so as as we get into our discussion of verse 18, really 18 through32, I love how the ESV expository commentary through Crossway said this. This is a broad description of humanity's suppression of God's truths uh unrighteousness that deserves God's wrath. So when we talk about God's wrath, this is where people, this is the God that people don't like very much. So when people are like, "Oh yeah, the Old Testament God seems real angry and judgmental, all these different things. I like the New Testament God better." It's like, uh, you're eventually going to have to unhitch from the New Testament, too, because there are entire descriptions of the wrath of God. Because guess what, guys? God is angry at evil, right? Right. And as I've talked about on the Daily Blade, as has kind of been a theme of our Sunday school here recently, it's like, look, God hates evil. And I think us as Christians, we don't hate the things that God hates enough. I mean, Psalm 97:10, like for those who love the Lord, hate evil, right? And that means you hate the things that God hates. Um, and the thing is is any good judge would be that way, >> right? Because if a judge does not hate evil, then unrighteousness typically is going to to follow. And I mean, God tends to be very angry, as we see here in this text, with people that try to suppress the truth. And we're going to tease out what we're talking about uh in terms of truth. Like, what what does that mean? Is it revealed to man? Do we actually know what we think we know? But a lot to get to get into with just verse 18. So, fire away, fellas. I think I think when we when we see the word wrath, our immediate, you know, reaction is this, >> you know, kind of explosive impulsive anger cuz like when you when you you know, you play sports, you go, man, I I I received coach's wrath today cuz I messed up or I did something like that's that like I think people look at that and that's their reaction. Um, this is like the Bible describes God as being slow to anger. Doesn't mean he's not angry, but this like the wrath of God is not this explosive like thing that he like God can't control and he just had a moment. He had a lapse of of character where he just, you know, sorry guys, I lost my cool. >> This is a slow burning like anger against unrighteousness. And what what what is really helpful for me to think about is the the famous RC Sproul what's wrong with you people came out of a question >> what's wrong with you >> where somebody said something to the effect they asked it was a question and answer panel and so the question was something to the effect of why was God so basically mean it's not the way they asked it but why was he so mean or so extreme with his punishment for Adam and Eve uh when they sinned and that is what brought the what's wrong with you people? And his response was, you're telling me the God who created the universe took a clump of dirt, created man, then created woman, told these people, if you eat of that tree on that day, you will surely die. Then they disobeyed the the the guy who literally gave them life and could take them out with a snap of his finger. And then he let him live. And that is him being too mean like that. Like God is slow to anger, but his wrath is being revealed. Um, and I like what what's the quote? Uh, it we're the the bad things in the world aren't happening because we're sinful, but it is God's wrath being revealed because of unrighteousness. That's why we see all those all the all the the the bad in the world >> judicial abandonment. >> Yeah. >> So going back to Sproul Sproul made a very good comment and I I read it in his commentary. The word he uses for wrath uh Paul uses for wrath in Greek is ory. You know what that is in English? >> Orgy. >> So what do we think of when we think of orgies? We think of like sex, unbridled sex, all this stuff. But really what it means is passion. And God has a passion against unrighteousness. >> Like his wrath is is not just irate. It's a passionate um wrath against unrighteousness. And so >> you bring up judicial abandonment. We'll go through that later. But then that's when we talk about God gives up. But when we when we look at wrath right now, at some point that wrath is God lets you just do your sin, move on. >> Yeah. God gives them up. Not God gives up. He doesn't throw up his sin. >> No, he doesn't give up. Right. Right. He gives them up to their sin. >> I was listen Oh, go ahead. No, go ahead. >> I was just going to say I was listen or reading Ji Packard's book and he talks about the attributes of God and one of the things he says in there is the anthropomorphic language. >> Oh yeah. >> So how we take that language in the Bible and we that we use and want to put it in the Bible. Well that that idea of wrath, you know, God can't act outside of his nature. Well, for us in love, we sometimes we do things that, you know, aren't right in love, right? We act out of passion or whatever. Well, God can't act outside of his nature. So, we think, well, okay, if he's wrathful, he's going to have that anger, that vengeance. Well, he does have it, but it's not this just explosive, you know, outside of his nature of calcula, I guess I would say calculated wrath >> when his wrath is good. >> Like that's so think about it this way. So uh you know because of the nature of what we do with undawn of life like I weigh into some very dark waters >> and I look at these horrible stories of of you know what people do to other people and just the most evil things that you can think of. So and everyone's got a different flavor of what they think is evil and the worst of the worst kind of a thing. But just think of a scenario. Think of that true crime thing that that you listen to or that you watch the documentary and just think about that crime that was so heinous you could barely keep watching. You could barely control your gag reflexes. Okay. So, everybody listening to this, get that one in your mind. Okay. Do we think that person should be punished for that action? Would you feel right if that person were arrested, tried, found guilty, and then the judge were to say, "Yeah, I know the jury found you guilty of all this, but I just don't really feel like punishing you. Um, so we're we're just going to let you go. Don't you dare do that again." Again, guys, think think about think about how what would your feelings be towards that judge? >> Like, oh, you feckless, impotent, like weasel of a man. How dare you? You would not say that he was just. You would not say that he was good. >> And so, in that moment, the wrath of the judge >> is justified, right? And necessary. And so again, I think it's because we all think that we're we even if even if you believe in the total depravity and all that, we still think we're righteous. But I'm not as bad as that guy, >> right? You know, I've talked to these people that are like, "Well, man, Kyle, come on." Like, you're telling me Jeffrey Dmer, who reportedly became a believer before uh before he was executed for his horrific crimes that he became a Christian. And you're like, you're telling me that Jeffrey Dmer is in heaven? >> And it's like, dude, I'll do you one better. And I heard this. I wish I could give this person credit cuz I love it. It's like you want to try to understand and wrap your head around the gospel. >> The people that Saul of Tarsus martyed were on the welcome committee for Paul when he got to heaven, right? wrap your brain around that because that's what the gospels >> God in his infinite wisdom used Paul to take away our excuse or to take away our ability to be angry with that because you can say why the heck how is Jeffrey Dmer in there man Paul was Jeffrey Dmer Paul was that terrorist he was a yeah he was a terrorist killing people >> it like killing Christians and then Christ flipped him around and said you're working for me now. And like you said, like the people who welcomed Paul into heaven were the very people that he persecuted and killed. And that is essentially an essential part of the gospel is that it we're all we're all considered that we're all considered murderers. I mean, and Jesus is very clear. If you've ever had a hateful thought about someone, you're you are essentially a murderer. But we think in gradations we we think in like Okay. So we don't think categorically enough, right? So again, I tell people all the time like I'm not a black I'm a black and white guy. I'm not gray, right? I don't spend a lot of time like wallowing in the gray and the nuance and all the different things. Uh it's so annoying. But like the thing about it is is categorically in the binary you are depraved or not depraved. You are righteous or you are unrighteous. Now, using what God has given us and the laws of man and all that, we might surmise that Jeffrey Dmer is more depraved than me because I've never sodomized a man, killed him, and then ate part of his body. That's that's never been on the menu of sin for me. But categorically, am I a depraved sinner or am I not? And that's where we run to the places where we can find peace. But, man, you go talk to these guys. I love watching videos from like uh gospel behind bars or God behind bars or the these different places where you talk to these these prisoners like murderers, rapists, drug dealers, like people that tortured other people like all these horrible things. When you hear those guys talk about the gospel, >> it's a whole different >> Yeah. It just feels different. And I'm not saying they're more saved than, you know, your seven-year-old daughter that, you know, gave her life to Christ during a wana or something like that. I'm not saying that. >> But it it's a you understand changed a life though, right? Like you said, it's >> you understand the gospel more when the level of depravity is higher, right? It's just it just shines a brighter light on it. >> Well, I don't I think Ryan, you may have read this Sproul and Sproul's commentary or his devotional, he talks about how when Luther was in the monastery, you know, he was comparing himself against God's righteousness that he required, right? We don't do that, right? But he was. But then when he figured out he didn't need to do that, it the doors opened up. He became just as passionate about about uh preaching and standing against the leaders because, you know, he'd been so tormented for so long about trying to live up to that. >> He was he was chastised by his tormented is a perfect word. >> He was chastised by his like his basically his like overseers or his bosses or whatever because he was bringing stuff to them was like >> insignificant sins. Like man >> like Yeah, that's not even a big deal, bro. Like what are you doing? like I got I got to get out of here. >> And but that's that's the thing like everything is an offense to God categorically like Kyle's saying, >> you've been furiously searching for something over there. So I'm excited like what you're on the Grace TV website. Did you find what you're looking for? >> So I did find what I was listening to a sermon by MacArthur and he was going over wrath and he's like there's five different types of wrath. M >> um he goes um there's the uh wrath of eternal wrath with his help and then cataclysmic wrath which is like tornadoes. >> Yeah. >> Anything that would happen. Um then there's the wrath of sewing sewing and reaping. >> Um that's just consequences uh consequences of whatever you do that's unrighteous. There's a wrath to it. But this will go into later on in the chapter the wrath of abandonment that you were talking about. So, right now, we got to look at when we go through 18 through32, there's going to be so many things that go through um God's wrath that's going to lead to all five of these things. >> Do you have the the title and the timing of that? >> Yeah, this was um the reality of God's wrath. It's Romans 18 through32. Uh March 14th, 1998. >> Romans 1:18 through32. When was it again? >> Uh March 14th, 1998. >> Okay, very good. So uh one thing here on 18 as well is the dual natures of what's being discussed here. So again for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men. So ungodliness. So this is basically destroying the vertical relationship between man and God. Right? The ESV I I love the Crossway ESV expository commentary on this. So ungodliness is destroying the vertical relationship with God and unrighteousness is destroying the horizontal relationship with other people, believers and non-believers, right? Jews and Greeks. And so I I think that that's very again, he's not providing cover for anybody here because there are people that treat their fellow man well because this is the argument that you'll get from non-believers is like, dude, I know some horrible immoral people that claim to be Christians and boy oh howdy do I know some atheists that that are great people. They give to charity. They'll give you the shirt off their back and all that. It's like uh like no not one. We're in the no they're in the no not one category. But Paul even discusses that in Romans. It's like there's no there's no way that you do not know that there's a God because through God we see his creation >> and then also through God we have moral law. There's a sense of morality as humans have no matter how immoral we are. But that moral sense came from God whether you're a believer or not. >> So let's actually open this up a little bit. So if you'll Ryan if you'll go ahead and read 19 and 20 because this this is where we start widening out the discussion there. For what can be known about God is plain to them because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived ever since the creation of the world. And in the things that have been made, so they are without excuse. Have been clearly perceived. >> We don't got to dig into the Greek there, right? Clearly perceived. Now, like this is probably worth parking, you know, in 18, 19, and 20 because God makes himself clear, but we suppress the clarity, right? So, I think about the ardent atheist that wait, you believe in miracles, you believe like a Jewish guy rose from the dead. Oh, you believe he touched people and they were healed and all that. It's like you believe life came from non-life. You believe that time, space, and matter had a timeless, spaceless, immaterial beginning. Like you believe that >> and you are snickering in looking down your nose at me. Like let's just compare miracles here. Yeah. >> Right. And even you'll hear guys like like Joe Rogan who I think is probably on the agnostic side of things now to be like, >> "Hey guys, you believe like in the Big Bang there were so things just kind of banged like and so but what banged? How did the bang stuff get there? Right? And so it's the the cockiness and cockuress of people that are just >> that are suppressing the truth here when it can be clearly perceived because it's it's plain to them which which can mean it's within them but also when you look at created order when you look at the order of creation and how everything runs in that perfect order the Goldilock zone that the earth's in if it was 100 yards closer to the sun too hot >> not even 100 yards. >> Yeah. So if it's closer to the sun, life's not able to happen. If it's closer to the to, you know, uh, >> Mars, you know, life's not able to happen or all that. But yeah, I think it's it's just important for people that that are thinking through this like, oh, don't suppress the truth. It's like, >> no one no one has ever discovered a remote tribe of atheists. You have to be educated. The world would call it educated. You have to be educated into atheism. >> So you, it's like you're transitioning into this for me. I just got to read this quote. So it goes into that. So, don't forget don't forget what you're about to get into. There's a great Malcolm Mugridge quote uh that that goes into that. Until at last, having educated himself into imbecility, >> having educated himself into imbecility and polluted and drugged himself into stupid faction, he keeled over a weary, battered old bronosaurus and became extinct. So, you have these people that will educate themselves beyond their wisdom, which is why I tell people careful with AI. AI does not have wisdom, discernment, nor the Holy Spirit. And so it might be able to give you good advice, but it's just glomming on to things that it's stolen from Wikipedia or individual people's blogs. But yeah, you're right. You you when you have these people that have no connection to the created order, it's because that's been educated out of them to a degree. >> Well, Solomon's a perfect example of that. You know, he was given wisdom by God, but then he thought he was smarter than God. You know, he thought he was more educated. And that's the thing that we look at is >> Yeah. Look at Ecclesiastes. >> Yeah. Yeah. So when we look at this, we look at the fact that you know trying to see where I was going with that. Um but when we when we look at the education into atheism is we look at the idols and we look at idols back then people made idols but the idols were not themselves. The idols were other birds or of other gods. But now because of you know the education and the education that we have when when >> because of the enlightenment essentially >> the enlightenment well if you look at universities when universities like Princeton Dartmouth and all those uh universities were built here >> they were seminary about about God but now you've brought in people who want to bring in this the idol of self >> and that's what we're seeing now is that we believe that we're smarter we think better than God does because when you look at somebody who's always trying to move you away from God they'll go to his wrath. They'll be like, "What kind of loving God does this?" >> Yeah. >> What kind of God does this? What kind of God does that? >> And they're putting themselves in a place of judgment by even asking a question of God. >> Correct. >> You know, and so it's just like where who do these people think like they don't see themselves? Who do you think you are? Because you might think that the Romans who built sistns and kind of created modern society, you know, are a bunch of idiots, but they still believed in a higher power that created something. It was written on their hearts, but they just they idolize something else. >> Yeah. We I the recency bias that we have where we think people who lived a thousand years ago were just chronological. >> Yeah, that's that's the better way to to look at it. Like that's >> that is hubris for sure. But another another form of hubris is just the educating ourselves and re and getting knowledge and we overlook like DNA is a good example like DNA is composed of a language. There's a language in our DNA that codes how we're made. >> Yeah. >> And how how how we act and how our cells interact. There's there's a whole language in there that just happened by accident. Now people like >> even non-believers know like the agnostics and maybe even the atheists know that that doesn't happen by accident. Yeah. There's intelligent design. They just don't want to see it. They don't want to believe it. >> That's the piece that Sproul's talking about. I was reading in his commentary. You got the ungodly and the unrighteousness, right? Those are important. But it's the part of when you suppress the truth about God. That's that's where that real wrath, you know, he says that indignation and that that that just fury comes in when you just keep suppressing that truth. He >> he reckons it to like a a coil, right? Or like a spring. He keep they keep pushing it down, right? God's trying to make himself known to us, right? He wants to be in relationship with us and we don't want it. So, we keep pushing it down and he's trying to push it back up and it just it burns him up. Well, and I think so there are people that atheists that will use dogma or any uh issues that have been caused by man-made religion as an excuse >> to not believe. I was recently listening to an interview between Alex Hunnald and uh Andrew Huberman. So Huberman big you know um you know >> fitness and science and like all this type of stuff. So Alex Hunn is the guy that was the centerpoint of the free solo documentary. So he free soloed, which means he rock climbed without uh nets, without, you know, hooks and ropes and all that kind of stuff. He free soloed El Capitan in in California. And, you know, it took him years of training and and thinking through it and all that. And the the documentary is probably the most stunning documentary I've ever seen. We watched it with the boys. You know, the guy lives and you're still on the edge of your seat wondering what's going to happen. It's very very strange. But recent, you know, recently, you know, Huberman kind of asked him, "Hey, you know, so what do you think about, you know, God, like the, you know, spiritual realm." And he was so quick to answer. He's like, "Yeah, I don't believe in any of that. I'm an ardent atheist." And but then he's like, you know, uh I think Humeman kind of softened it a little bit to be like, "Well, you know, when you're in nature and you know, connection." And he's like, "Yeah, you know, I believe in, you know, kind of like a vague, you know, spiritualism of sorts where, you know, you see the the sunrise over, you know, LCAP or you, you know, you do something cool and you feel like a connection to something, but it's just like, yeah, I just don't have any any time for like, you know, religion and doctrine and dogma and all that kind of stuff." And so his quibble is not with God, it's with man-made religion, right? So, I think he said he grew up Catholic. So there there's you a pretty good excuse if you grew up in a kind of worksbased righteousness type of uh religious setting and you know all this stuff that isn't described anywhere other than Catholic doctrine. It's not described in the Bible. Any of these types of things where you're looking at God plus whatever the pope says plus uh you know indulgences you know plus confession plus sacraments. Yeah. Plus tradition. >> It just becomes real convoluted. But that's where a lot of people get to a point where they're down to suppress the truth because they're hiding behind this facade is of, "Oh, I went to a fundamentalist Baptist church as a kid and those were some of the most horrible, immoral, racist people I've ever been around and so I'm not going to be like one of those people." And so it's like they're they're kind of like wagging their finger at somebody. It's like and again it's it's as people have pointed out think Frank Turk said it's like if you hear someone at Guitar Center playing Sweet Child of Mine poorly, you don't blame Slash for that. Like that's not Slash's fault. like you go back to the source and say, "Is this bad or is this good?" >> I mean, that's kind of what I ran into at the last church we went to um before coming back to Oklahoma is I heard this guy preaching on stuff and I'm like, "This doesn't seem right." You know, I was just like I was like, but here's the thing. I never opened my Bible, you know? I never looked at the word. And so I'm like I was like, so I went up after service and I was like, "Hey, where did you get all that from?" So he gave me like five or six different verses. And so rather than going and looking at just those verses, I went and read the chapters. And I was like I was like, I don't think this has to do with what he's talking about. Like and so, you know, you you end up reading the Bible and you end up finding what the truth is, but like we get so involved in what we think the truth is and what some person might be telling us what the truth is, but we don't go and read what the truth is. And like nowadays we nobody looks at this as truth anymore. And that's the sad part. >> So I think as well, you know, we get into the end of verse 20. So they are without excuse. Uh I I know I've watched a lot of interactions. We mentioned Ray Comfort and you know, I've seen some different, you know, man on the street interactions with uh Christian apologists and non-believers where they're like, "So what about this un, you know, this univilized tribe in the Amazon that's never been I can't think of it. They've never been contact unconted people groups or something like that. >> Yeah. >> What about them, right? They don't have a Bible in their language. Like they don't have a missionary that's ever been allowed uh to to go go in there and do any of these types of things. And there Paul actually does address that some other places uh in Romans. And what's that? >> Acts 8:25. The Ethiopian uh receives Christ. Yeah. Or the unic receives Christ. >> He was reading Isaiah and Philip came. >> Right. And so there there are a lot of things here to where it's like but they are still without excuse in terms of and it why are they without excuse the order of creation where they are existing there again there is no excuse he's not providing any quarter for these people to be able to make any type of an excuse as to oh no but I just didn't know I just didn't know perhaps you didn't hear the gospel before you passed over but you are without excuse in terms of your acknowledgement of the creator God >> so it's interesting I was reading I think it may be in a MacArthur commentary and then in our Sunday school class last week a gentleman gave his testimony and I think you two probably remember him talking about it but he was an atheist or he was a Christian had become an atheist was working uh with some friends and the other guy that he was with was a hearten atheist. >> Yeah. >> And he was out in nature and had a >> got lost >> got lost. Right. And he so he prayed to God >> and God revealed himself to him at that time. got him back and said his life was changed forever. He's like, I've never seen a man so on fire for the Lord. But I was in reading in that MacArthur commentary, he said it's just it's things like that. It's if you ask if there's just that small inkling of like, are you there God? He's going to respond. And and that's thing we have to look at in the Old Testament is David, Abraham, all those guys were saved by faith, by their faith in God. Christ hadn't come yet, but they had the faith in God. And so we don't know about those other tribes that if they have a faith in God, if God is revealed, the Christ figure, they may not call him Jesus Christ. They may have their own language, but you you never know. Like Nabil Keshi is a great example. Like God came to him in a dream, >> you know, and he became a believer through a dream >> happening all over the Middle East. >> Yeah. And and so like we don't know how God moves, >> you know. And here's the thing, news flash, God doesn't need you to move. He just asks you to do it. You know, that's, you know, if God's going to move on somebody's heart, God's going to move on their heart. But you need to be obedient and do what God asked you to do. >> Yeah. That it kind of reminds me of of Esther, you know, >> like what uh her uncle Morai. Like God's going to save his people. He's just asking you to be a part of the the plan. Like you got to be obedient to that. >> Um I think that pride is what takes us away. Like Sproul said, you don't have to give up your intelligence to be a Christian because there are a lot of smart Christians and there are a lot of intelligent people that are saved by faith in Christ. But you do have to give up your pride. >> Yep. And it's it's the prideful mask that we wear that gets us to a place where we see all this evidence and we still want to like cover it up or conceal it and not look at it. And that that's not intelligence. That's pride that we're parading as intelligence. >> Yeah. >> And that's come back 32. >> And that's sad. >> Yeah. 32 is going to bring that up. There's a reason why we want to hide and suppress the truth. >> Interesting story. So, my dad uh works for the state of Indiana. He's a metrologist, not a meteorologist, but a metrologist. >> Traffic. >> So, a metrologist is Weights and Measures. Oh, >> okay. >> So, he works for the state, but they have to get certified through NIST, which is in Washington DC. So he went up to uh NIS to do his um certification and all this and he said the place that he's working at has is like math algebra like the most complex stuff. Well, he's at lunch during one of the trainings one day and he says you see some of these guys come out of the cubicles that are just whizzes but they look like they've come out of cubicles and somehow the conversation of God comes up and all of these guys are believers. And he said, "What what makes you believe that there's a God?" And he said, "The numbers." >> Yeah. >> He's he's like, "These guys are just off the charts smart." But he's like, "You can't look at numbers and the and the and the world we live in and not come back to a a superior >> dude." John Lennin, right? You know, Oxford or Cambridge, sorry, he went to Cambridge, not Oxford. Um, mathematician. But when you talk to mathematicians that are believers, like people that really like when you talk about mathematicians, people be like, "Oh, you mean like the kid that got an A in, you know, algebra 2, it's like, bro, it goes so much farther beyond that, what these people are doing and trying to compute." >> And when you hear them talk about again created order and where you find like math and numbers like in creation and stuff like that, >> like again, I just don't have the brain cells uh and brain power to be able to understand that. But I mean it's it's there no matter where you look. And so that's where I think like sometimes I'll see you know someone that's like a a very specific scientist of a very niche thing and I'm like what good is what this person's studying like the different tentacles on octtopi or something like that. What is this person doing? >> But you're seeing God's creation in the most beautiful way in in an incredibly detailed manner. Whereas like me, I may not be attracted to that. There's going to probably be tens of thousands of people in the history of the planet that will see God somehow in in how this animal acts or how this rock, you know, responds to this, you know, stimulus or something like that. >> No, when you were saying that math, like math has always been math. Like God created math. He created this system in the order of math. And that just reminded me of Proverbs 25:2. It says, "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing, but the honor of kings to search to search out a matter." So that is a like trying to discover math like that is a godly pursuit because that like that is that is part of the world that God created. We are just blessed to be able to go search that out and and the people who discover that and and find that revealed truth that God has always it's always been placed here like that is a godly pursuit. So we should seek out knowledge. Again, I'll go back to the pride. Like, knowledge is something that we should hold in high esteem, but it's the pride that that >> doesn't allow us to get to a place where we go, it's God's, it's God's knowledge. It's God's like intelligence that made that. >> Well, that's the thing. It's like you talked to, you know, I remember the Bill Nye versus um oh gosh, creation, right? that the whole argument of science is like well science >> Gilma is an engineer by the way not even a scientist but >> and so he's just like well they don't want to be smart they just they want to just you know read the book and that's it they don't want to study like that's so false >> we're we sit here and we read this book I don't sit here and I read this and be like oh I'm right everything that I believe in here is right I make my notes and then I go and look at people I respect >> and sometimes I look at people I don't respect and see what they say you know and I want to see like hey are they on par? Are they not on par? You know, and so it's like you can learn. It's like um I had a family member that was like, "I don't really like this person's theology. They want me to read this book." I was like, "Read the book. >> There's nothing wrong with reading the book." I was like, "Chew up the meat and spit out the bones." >> Well, and also like >> the Bible is not a taxonomy textbook, right? It's not a description of all history. Now, I've had to argue this from both sides because I've had Christians tell me, "Kyle, you don't focus on the Bible enough. You give us way too much news. You give us way too much philosophy. All those types of things. it's Bible only. And I'm like, "Okay, hey, can you open up your Bible real quick? Uh, who was the 14th president of the United States?" And they just look at me, I'm like, "Okay. Um, how many elements are there on the periodic table? Just just just turn to, you know, that part of the Bible." They're like, "What are you trying to say?" I'm like, "The Bible doesn't describe everything that's ever been true. It just describes the most important truths that man can reckon with." Okay? So, don't treat the Bible like something it's not the same thing on the atheist side. They're like, "Oh, well, so you you can't find anything in there about this subject or that subject?" I was like, "Yeah, cuz that's not what it is." And you you want me to sit here and pretend like Genesis is a frame by frame description of exactly what happened precisely and in what type of time table and this is where we get into younger earth and old earth, that type of thing. It's like that's not even the genre of Genesis. It's not a scientific history lesson, right? It's a description of things in a particular kind of a way. And so I I think for a lot of people they need to understand what is the text for and how are we to use it. And I I just think we don't look we don't look at the categories correctly on on either side of the ledger. >> I was like the ones that were like Jesus never said that. Like Jesus never talked about this. I was like >> Jesus never said not to buy a gun, you know, like but you want to say that Jesus says we can't. >> And then when they're like oh well Jesus never talked about homosexuality. It's like Jesus talked about sexual immorality and he didn't feel the need to specify every particular flavor of sexual immorality, but any sex that is outside of the conjugal union of one man and one woman joined in holy matrimony for their entire lives except for death, abandonment or uh adultery. That is the context where sex is appropriate. So what that means guys is you know shout out to Carl Lince. That means, let me explain it to you slowly, is every single kind of sex outside of that male, female, for life within marriage is not appropriate. >> And then he defines marriage when he talks about divorce. >> Exactly. And he calls back to what? He calls back to Genesis, Andy Stanley. So like if if we unhitch, we don't know exactly where we're getting the foundation message out if you don't unhitch the Old Testament. >> And yet he did a really solid job for a very long time. And then some I don't know Trump broke his brain or something broke his brain because he started you know he went from doing things in a solid way to a not so >> he hasn't been solid since 2012 so it wasn't Trump. >> Yeah it it it may have been it's it's definitely been problematic but um let let's go ahead and and open this up a little bit more. Let's get into verse 21. Uh so we'll add that to the discussion for today. So Howard, go and read verse 21 for us please. >> 21. For even though they knew God, they did not honor him as a God or give thanks, but they became feudal in their uh in their speculation and their foolish hearts was their f foolish heart was darkened. >> What version were you reading from? >> Uh oh, sorry. I went to my >> You can't switcheroo on the audio. Okay, come on. >> Don't make it. >> All right. So in verse 21 here, um this is where we kind of start getting into Paul's arguments about intellectual bankruptcy, moral bankruptcy, kind of what we see from the unrighteous. Uh because you know at this point like they become feudal in their thinking and their foolish hearts were darkened. And so let let's go ahead and talk a little bit more uh about this uh because again we're looking at a moral judgment here and not just an intellectual. I look at the fact that they do not honor him or give thanks to him. That kind of reminds me of like some people who are like, "I did this. God didn't do it." You know, like, "I did this. God didn't give me the tools to do it." And it's just like, >> man, like when we lose that, when we lose that what God has given us and the grace that he's given us and the tools and everything that he's given us, I would not be where I'm at if God didn't uh provide the person to teach me what I needed to be to learn. I wouldn't be here if he didn't provide the tools that I needed to do something. I wouldn't have been here if he didn't provide me the woman that I needed to be with and the children that I have. And so, we stop giving thanks to God and we all start putting it on ourselves. And I think that's when we die to self again. We're not dying to ourselves. We're not dying. We're like, we're putting it all on us and we lose God. >> We as a society are so about ourselves, right? Like like you were saying, when we go to church, when we go to school, like it's all about our needs, our wants, and we're going to just continue to build up our thoughts of ourselves when we think, "Oh, I've got a pretty good life." Well, how did I get there? I did, right? What is what does Instagram, social media do? It's all about me. It's it's about my image and everything. So, >> if something goes poorly, that's not my fault, right? You know, my my coach didn't give me a good enough shake. My boss has never liked me. Oh, if my wife did this or if my kids were better at that. It's like, guys, >> and that's the people who are like, if there was a God, why would he allow that? >> You know, it's just like, >> well, Matt uh Matt Chandler made a great point. Well, whenever he was doing, I think it was uh his second uh round of of Romans where he talked about how many people tuck themselves into bed at night and think, gosh, there were tens of thousands of flights today and they all landed safely. man, God is so good. What what a what grace we all get. >> But let one of those planes fall out of the sky. And it's like, oh, so your good God is going to allow a a you know, a plane full of men, women, and children to go down in flames and oh, your God's still good. >> And it's just like, brother, like, like, think about, but again, it's it's a perspective. It's like our perspective knob is broken. >> But that's the thing. When everything is good, we did it. And the only time we think about a god is when everything's bad. And why would a god allow this to happen? >> We m we magnify our place in the world and we we magnify like how important we are when you know in reality we're you know just a speck of dust in eternity. And so again that that goes back to pride like it's all it's all prideful. So >> goes back to the garden. >> Yeah. Well and I think as well within verse 21 where it talks about their foolish hearts were darkened. How many people, and this goes back to the Mugger quote from earlier, they they don't feel like they're foolish. Like some of the hardest people to get through to on any moral or spiritual kind of level are the people that are very intelligent, >> right? And so people be like, well, because what you're asking them to do is put their intelligence aside. It's like, no, you're telling me guys like RC Sproul and John Lennin and Frank Turk and, you know, Jay Warner Wallace and any of this, you're telling me these people aren't smart. You're telling me they didn't do good on their ACT, SAT? Really? Uh, it's just like that their focus is different. They've come to a different conclusion. But at the same time, I saw recently where there's a some 37year-old South Korean, you know, doctor or something like that. The man with the highest recorded IQ in human history. It's like 270 or something like ridiculous. It's like a preposterous thing. Uh, the highest IQ ever. He came out on on Twitter and said, "Hi, you know, I'm such such so and so. I have the highest IQ ever recorded. I'm the smartest man on earth." And I believe that Jesus is God and he is the way, the truth, and the life and all that. And I remember my initial reaction, I said this in my interview with Al Robertson here recently. I I said my initial reaction was like, "Oh, that's awesome." And immediately my second reaction was >> and so >> it's not a revelation. >> Who freaking cares, right? The smartest guy in the world. Cuz it's not a religion for smart people, right? It's also not a religion for dumbards, right? >> And I just immediately thought about a guy like Phil Robertson. He was talking to dudes who who don't have high IQs, right? Their IQ may have been been so low they couldn't have got into the military or something like that. Like, you know, people that really really struggle. >> The gospel is for those people as well because it's and and this is again where we kind of start getting into, you know, election and and if sovereignty and it's being revealed to us, it's not our intellectual might >> that saves us, right? So, you're smart like Lee Stroble and you you set out on a on a goal to disprove Christianity using your skills and your intellect and all those things. And through your pursuit of intellectual honesty, you come to the honest conclusion that God created everything. Jesus was a son and he was sent down here to provide propitiation for our sin debt on a Roman cross. Well, sheesh, right? But it wasn't Lee Stroel's superior intellect that helped him figure that out. But again, that that's kind of getting into the mystery of all this, like, okay, where exactly does that come from? >> When I was reading this, I really thought of the Wes Huff Billy Carson interview. >> Oh gosh, that was and like everything that went down there because like Wes Huff is just like throwing like just tearing his argument apart. And then but >> respectfully >> respectfully Wes Hub yeah >> but when you think of the when when you read this but they became futile in their thinking and their foolish hearts were darkened watching Billy Carson's rebuttal threehour rebuttal >> was the perfect definition >> that was painful >> of this verse right here. >> So most people in the audience have not seen that. So give us give us some more a little more detail on Basically, he goes in and he's like, "Well, one, I was sick. They got me. They got me after I was on my deathbed." And like, >> they didn't tell me it was a debate. >> They didn't tell me it was a debate. >> And um this guy set me up uh who's the supposed to be the moderator. And by the way, >> the moderator I thought was the worst moderator in the world, but it wasn't for Billy's sake. It was for Wes's sake. I was like, "You never let Wes dispute his argument." And then he'll come back and say Billy's Billy was my friend and I wanted to go ahead and I was trying to diffuse the situation Billy's wedding. >> Yeah. He was like Yeah. He was like he was making trying to make Billy look good. >> And I'm like And then so Billy throws him under the bus, you know. And then Billy is like, "Well, I already knew this and I know that and I was sick and I was this and I was that. They set me up like would not take any ownership. He is so dead to his own pride in thinking that his heart is darkened. >> Yeah. >> Not for Christ is for his own thinking. He will never think he did anything wrong. The dude was the most like sounded like the most biggest victim I've ever heard in my life. When you had one guy stepping up for you, another guy being perfectly nice, you know, and but you were you're so wrong in your thinking and you can't back it up. Why? Because it's just not true. You know that there's a God. You just don't want to say it. >> Yeah. There wasn't one argument or there wasn't one point, you know, that he went like, "Okay." Yes. He know it just >> Yeah. He wanted to kind of move the goalpost and kind of move around a little bit. But let So we can open that up even a little bit more. So Matt, if you can actually read. >> Can I can I say one, please? >> I think I think these verses should give us pause where it's talking about um for what can be known about God plain to them because um no no one was is with excuse or so they are without excuse. Um, and so the the 20 21 that we just read, for although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their foolish hearts were darkened. I think that should give us pause as believers because God has revealed himself in the natural world and he's revealed himself to all believers. There's no no not even, you know, the remote tribe in Africa is without excuse. All of those people fall short of the glory of God. That should give us pause as believers because in that revelation is not the gospel. And so we should really like that should really give us like the energy and the like wherewithal to think, oh, I got to we we have to preach the gospel. We have to preach the good news. And that's not an excuse to say everybody knows God exists, so I don't have to do anything. >> Yeah. Theology isn't revealed through the natural order of things. It's our job to preach that out to people and not let those desolate, remote people go uneangelized. >> We can't be ashamed of the gospel, right? >> We have to go out there. We have to preach it and we have to preach it the correct way. >> Yeah. >> I want to go ahead while I'm looking something up. >> Well, you were just talking about pride, how we as humans have pride. And you know the passage that just came to mind Matthew 18:3 and he said truly I tell you unless you change and become like children you will never enter the kingdom of heaven right do we have the faith like a child you know we want to have all the answers we want to have everything pieced together perfectly you know my father-in-law has come to know the Lord but before when I would talk to him at times all the pieces didn't get put together he didn't have all of the answers to every piece and it was like okay there's there's a part of faith, right? And it's very hard for a very intellectual person sometimes to >> it's hard to give things up. It's hard to like it's it's hard to humble yourself, especially I mean that's one thing I had to learn. It was it's very hard to humble yourself to certain things. >> And um you know, humbling yourself before God is the ultimate thing. But even like even me as a not so much of a mature believer, but a believer that's matured in his faith, like I've had to learn to humble myself before God and not try to take things on on my own. You know, I I want to I want to have that responsibility, but I don't need to have that ownership. That ownership I can give over to him. Well, going back to Matt's point earlier, I was reminded of something that uh Mark Hitchcock, our pastor, pointed out in our study of Ephesians where Ephesians 1:13, in him, you also um when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation and believed in him were sealed with the promise of the Holy Spirit. Focusing on when you heard the word of truth, >> we have to hear the gospel right now. That's not necessarily on the lips of a professional missionary, right? Nibil Keshi heard the gospel in his dreams because there are a lot of places in this world where a a guy can't stand on a street corner with a microphone and a speaker and preach the good news. There are not buildings where people can go in and feel safe learning about the gospel of Jesus Christ. >> But goodness gracious, the Holy Spirit is not going to be denied. Right? And so what the I mean Nibil Keshi's seeking a law finding Jesus was the first time I had ever heard about somebody being visited in their dream by Jesus and the you could put that in the in the realm of illusury or you know this it's not attached to anything. Oh, I wonder if he just had some magnesium before he went to bed or had some melatonin dreams, which can be substantial. Like, you know, it's it's not one of those things like the if you talk to these people, it's realer than real while it's happening. >> And any scientist I would try to kind of explain that away is like, oh, well, no, this is a self-fulfilling prophecy and all these types of things. They're not even looking. >> The the name of the book is seeking a law, finding Jesus. They believe in Jesus as a prophet. They believe he was the born of a virgin. They believe all those things, but they don't believe that he he died on the cross. They believe that someone either died in his place or he swooned. They thought he was dead, but the Romans who were experts at killing made a mistake and actually didn't kill the guy that claimed to be Messiah. Like, >> of all the incredible things that could have possibly happened, that one's that one's up there. Like, hey, if you want if you want to go with that. But uh in our discussion here as we we wind to a close, uh Matt, if you can go ahead and add verses 22 and 23 to this discussion because that'll set us up for next week as well. >> Yeah. Uh claiming to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. >> So claiming to be wise, they became fools. Um gosh, I just think about, you know, I became a Christian at the age of 15. And so I think every, you know, 13, 14, 15 year old, they think they know a thing or two, right? You get your driver's license and all a sudden you're a man, right? You think you kind of understand everything. >> But gosh, I just think about that person that makes their way into their uh intellectual maturity that they find in their 20s and their 30s and their 40s, and then even into their 50s, and they've lived a certain way their entire life. And then the truth of the gospel like runs them into a brick wall to where it's like, hey, there's no going around this thing. Like you have to reckon with what's right in front of your face. And again, you get to this point where you feel like you're wise and you use your own personal >> standards for what that even means. And it's just gosh, you're just left wanting at the end of the day. >> Well, I think that's what we do a lot of time. I mean, I think we've talked about it many of times before on here. Like we as men a lot of times come back to our own experiences, our own strength, our own pride, like we try to solve it on our own, right? Like we try to lean on our own understanding. And I think that's a perfect example. We can take that into so many different areas. >> But uh well, I got another thought, but you guys, >> the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge. Fools despise wisdom and instruction. That's Proverbs 1 vers7. And I like what what a great verse to pair with this. Claiming to be wise, they became fools because there was no reverence for God. There was no fear of the creator of the universe >> that we replaced him with ourselves and we put oursel on the altar >> and to worship. We're all We're all made to worship something. That's how we're created. We're going to worship something. Like that's not in question. It's what are we going to worship? >> Yeah. And Paul is clearly saying like these people are claiming to be smart and wise, but they're replacing God with themselves and worshiping that >> an immortal God, a God that lives forever. >> And we replace him with animals or birds. Back then they would or humans, but now we replace it with ourselves. And we are not immortal. our souls are if we believe in Christ. But in the end, if you don't, you're cast in the lake of fire and you're gone. You're no longer >> I mean, that's the thing. It's like if we replaced birds and 4-footed animals and crawling creatures like in our society today, what would you say we've replaced that with? You said one, right? >> I said I said with ourselves >> with ourselves, but like intellectual, you know, >> degrees, certifications. >> Yeah. How many idols do we have? You know what I'm saying? >> What do we make idols, right? Is it our home? Is it our education? >> Feelings. >> Emotions. >> Yep. >> Like >> do our do our do the people around us see that? >> Well, what is what are we worshiping at the idol of? Is it this job? The status of our job? Is it the relationship with my wife? Is it like >> more as caught than taught, right? And what do people see us worshiping at the altar of? There's a there's a song called like by and I think he's a Tik Tocker but I listen to this song and it's called Ordinary and Luke Combmes does a duet with him and it it's it's a very popular song to play you know over like re like reals like social media reels and it has a very theological language to it and if you're not paying attention you think oh wow that's a Christian song and but but if you if you listen to it like he is worshiping his wife and his relationship with his wife and so when you were talking about that that's a very easy thing to fall into like my wife is the one that saved me or like I mean he's using words like I um I kiss the ground of your sanctuary talking about a human a human person who is his wife >> and that that that is that's That's right there. Like that's Romans that's Romans 23 right there. >> Um and that's sad that but but people will hear that and go, "Wow, that that dude's that dude's on fire for God." Or they'll they'll just assume he's a Christian. >> Well, I mean that or he >> just did what South Park did and just took love songs and put Christ in it. Um the one of the things >> fact check it. We don't have to say it. >> Um I'm not going to say it. Um, but that's the thing to look at. Like you you talk about this guy and he's putting his wife on a pedestal. I haven't like look at nowadays we're putting sex and gender on a pedestal. We're like, you know, like I'm not going to lie, like I put sex on a pedestal before I was a Christian. I was like, man, >> I don't want I remember as a as like a teenager like I want Jesus come back. I want to have sex, you know? Like >> I mean like yeah, it's pretty depraved, but it's the truth. I'm the most depraved, you know? But I'm just like, yeah, like you know, in the if you grew up in the 90s, in the early 2000s, women were objectified. Sexuality was what everything was. >> And and that's the thing that we made an idol. And look at like look at the horrible thing that came out of that. Um, and we'll talk about this in judicial abandonment about how our culture and our world decays, >> but like the fact that as a as a 24 year old, 25, not probably a 30-year-old man, I came to the conclusion I objectify women. >> I objectify women. And I don't know, I don't try to do it, but I did. And it's probably how I grew up and it's probably what what I what I you know what I I looked at. But like like looking back to thinking all the people that I thought were cool, >> you know, that you wanted to be like and I'm like, "Oh my gosh." You know, like we idolize we idolize either celebrities or we idolize characters or we idolize a certain thing. But man, think about if I was a kid and I idolize God and what God thought was righteous. Like >> man, how much better would my life have been? You know, would I trade anything that I've learned now? No. You know, but man, I can look at I can see the beauty of what it could have been. >> Well, guys, anything else on Romans 1:18 through 23 before we leave it? And I feel the need to Yeah, Matt, you hush your butt because, you know, we don't want you to have a perfect outro about that. >> Well, yeah, I forgot. Uh, little Eli decided to come up here before we started recording and he left uh which which uh this is Doy the Dalmatian. He left a little beanie baby here on my table. Matt, would you say if this was like 1994, this is going to be worth >> There's a lot of there's a lot of '90s bombs. We say that that was worth $2,000 back in 1994. >> Yeah, probably. But it's it's it's worth a talking point on the forging table right now. >> We idolize Beanie Babies. We're going to leave it right there. We'll leave it right there. Anything else on this section before we close it out? >> No. >> No, I'm good. >> Without objection. Objection. Consent has been heard. Well, guys, we're going to leave it there. Come back next week. We will start in Romans 1:19. But before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost at Undaunted Life. We will. No, sorry, not Romans. What did I say? The heck did I say? >> We're going to start in Romans 124. >> 124 124. Thank you, Ryan. Thank you, Ryan. Uh, but we are mission here is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, physical resilience. And just wanted to remind you that we have a Crossway forging table starter set. So, if you want to start a group similar to this, Crossway has a set of five books. There's a scripture journal, there's a great study Bible, there's a devotional, a couple of other books. You can get all those books at a 50% discount. If you want to know how to do that, go to the show notes. It explains it there. Also, the Logos Bible Software, the most powerful Bible software in existence. You can get it. And also, you can get it at a discount. We have the discount link there in our show notes. And we are a donationbased ministry. So, if you're wondering how you can help us equipment around the globe to push back darkness, it's because we have donors, guys just like you giving 20 bucks a month, 100 bucks a month, something like that to make sure that we can continue our work here. So, please consider hopping on board and being a donor. Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five-star review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@undantton.life. That's info@unton.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www.undton.life. And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is their song Perpeta, which is off their self-titled debut album on Faceown Records. The links are in the description. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the Lion of Judah. [Music]