0:00
LinkedIn is pretty great at a lot of things, like helping you tap into the latest trends
0:04
and insights in your field.
0:06
We cannot stop your co-worker from tapping her pencil.
0:09
LinkedIn can help you find new jobs that align with your career goals.
0:13
We cannot help you find the source of that weird smell in the office fridge.
0:18
And while we can't stop your co-workers from bringing their hobbies into the office, LinkedIn
0:24
can help you bring your career to the next level.
0:27
LinkedIn is the network that works for you.
0:30
This is "Undaunted Life a Man's Podcast."
0:54
I'm your host Kyle Thompson.
0:55
Let's get into it.
0:57
Welcome back to the Forging Table.
0:58
The mission of "Undaunted Life" is equipping me into pushback darkness with content that
1:01
forges spiritual mental and physical resilience.
1:04
At the Forging Table, you'll see a group of regular guys foraging spiritual resilience
1:07
by digging into God's Word.
1:08
And we're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with us.
1:11
That's Russ.
1:12
That's Winkler.
1:13
That's Adam, guys.
1:14
We're getting into Romans 1 verse 11.
1:16
We left off in verse 10 last week.
1:18
And Adam, you said last week's episode might have been like, what, top two, top three favorite
1:22
for you?
1:23
Yeah, it was great.
1:24
We turned off the recording and Adam would not lie about something so important, right?
1:28
Because we've got to keep the energy going, because I think all of us have, well, except
1:31
for you, Adam, because you're lame, but all of us have roughly the equivalent of a brick
1:36
of banana pudding sitting in our stomachs.
1:38
We'll actually know, can you explain why you got the world's smallest serving of banana
1:44
pudding?
1:45
Because it's my wife's banana pudding, which is the number one banana pudding on planter.
1:48
So for one, one explanation is that I hadn't tried it before I put the amount on my plate
1:53
because that would have made a difference.
1:56
It is really good.
1:57
Like if that was amazing, secondly, after eating the dinner that we had, I'm going swimming
2:04
after this.
2:05
So I have a friend that's doing a cookout that we were actually supposed to meet after
2:09
church today.
2:11
Plans got kind of crossed.
2:13
They didn't really check with me.
2:14
I had this.
2:15
So they've moved the cookout to where he's going to be cooking at 5.30.
2:18
So as we're sitting there eating, Tiffany texts me and says, Kale is going to start cooking
2:23
burgers at 5.30.
2:25
So as I'm eating that, I'm looking down and going, I've got to eat burgers.
2:29
I've got to eat burgers.
2:30
Have you guys ever seen a human eat bread pudding with a ladle before?
2:35
I've never seen it before.
2:36
Yeah.
2:37
First of all, not bread pudding.
2:38
Lame gross banana pudding.
2:39
Banana pudding.
2:40
Yes, I have.
2:41
Well, I have now seen it myself because Mr. Thompson ate what a normal human would eat
2:46
in seven bites in one.
2:48
Spoon that I'm looking at the screen spoon that big for sure.
2:52
Yeah.
2:53
And you know what?
2:54
Six bites.
2:55
Your mouth.
2:56
You've stopped.
2:57
I have a mouth like for real.
2:59
I have a big mouth literally and figuratively like I think I remember the first time I ladle
3:04
bit some banana pudding and my wife's sitting there like, what are you?
3:09
Like what is the, did you dislocate your jaw like a boa constrictor to get it around this
3:15
spoon?
3:16
I didn't hear us, but right before you did that, I was sitting there and she asked me,
3:20
she said spoon or fork.
3:21
And I said, is that a preference still like do some people eat with spoon and some people
3:26
eat with fork banana pudding like, is that the big debate?
3:28
And she goes, she goes, well, in our house, he picks a lot of weird stuff or something
3:34
like that.
3:35
She was like, are utensils couldn't be as far off from each other as anybody?
3:40
Yeah.
3:41
And then I was like, well, that seems like weird.
3:42
I kind of made the reference.
3:43
I was like, does he eat it with a steak knife?
3:45
I'm thinking that would be the drastic thing instead.
3:47
I, not even two minutes later, I look over it and you were full on like a bowl on a stick
3:54
in your mouth.
3:55
Well, so here's the thing about so that green bowl, like I got, I have my, my standards
3:59
because my wife doesn't do a whole lot of things in the kitchen, but she absolutely obliterates
4:02
in the best way possible with the things that she does do.
4:05
And the number one thing is banana pudding, right?
4:07
It's got to be in that glass green bowl for whatever reason.
4:10
If it's in another container, I actually don't really want it for whatever reason.
4:14
But about a year ago, she discovered like a different way to make it specifically for
4:19
me because I've never, I don't have standards when it comes to dessert or like self decency
4:23
or any of that type of stuff.
4:25
So like I've never had a dessert where I'm like, that's too sweet.
4:28
I don't think I like that.
4:29
It's a little dense for me.
4:30
Like it's never been a thing ever.
4:32
So what this recipe calls for, because normal people just do the regular pudding and maybe
4:36
they don't put cookies in or maybe they don't put bananas in or whatever.
4:39
So we got the cookies in there.
4:40
We got the bananas in there, but she does some cream cheese in there.
4:43
Some vanilla extract.
4:45
But what it calls for is you take a normal size thing, a cool whip.
4:49
You put half of it in the pudding mix, wait for it to set up.
4:53
And then before you serve it, you put the other half on top and you know, kind of garnish
4:56
it with some Nilla wafers.
4:58
Don't do the off brand thing.
4:59
They're just simply not nearly as good.
5:01
And then that's how you serve it.
5:02
Well, that's how self-respecting people would serve that.
5:05
And so we do it differently in this household.
5:07
She does double.
5:08
She does an entire thing of whip in the mix and entire thing of whip on top.
5:12
So it's creamier than creamy, right?
5:14
And if I am buying the coop, I buy the heavy cream, like cool whip thing.
5:19
So it's like thicker than a Snickers.
5:21
You could pick it up and throw it at somebody.
5:22
Right?
5:23
Like that's so and that's the whole thing in there in the mix.
5:26
But I typically try to get like a week or two heads up of when banana pudding is going
5:29
to happen because I will torture myself in the gym for those two weeks to earn those
5:35
calories because there's there's no governor in there.
5:38
Like I will set that bowl in my lap with that ladle and I will just get after it.
5:42
One, because everyone's serving size is a bite for me, right?
5:46
And I'm just bite after bite after bite of that stuff.
5:49
Where does this fit into physical resilience?
5:51
Is this physical or mental?
5:53
Hey, you earned it.
5:54
How?
5:55
The level of recovery that I have to experience after that.
5:58
The bounce back after putting that in that level of poison into my body.
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I couldn't do it if I wasn't so physically reset and sugar running through your veins
6:06
right now is impressive.
6:07
Bro, I have a secondary stomach specifically for that.
6:11
But the punishment I do typically day after putting because for my birthday, that's what
6:16
I want for my birthday.
6:17
Like I want an entire thing just for myself and I don't want to share.
6:19
Like if you want some, it's like, hey, kick rocks, it's my birthday.
6:23
But like, so it takes me two or three days.
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I forced myself to make it last two or three days.
6:29
So that entire bowl is typically what I would consume in like two or three days.
6:32
Were you at Fight Night last week?
6:34
Wow.
6:35
You were?
6:36
Yeah.
6:37
So we had three guys had their birthday.
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Yep.
6:39
How many dudes showed up?
6:40
And this is the first time ever in the history of our Fight Club where we had three guys get
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celebrated for their birthday.
6:44
So yeah, I don't know what you guys do for your birthday like cakes and ice cream and
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like dumb stuff like that, inviting people over that you love.
6:50
Well, at Fight Club, what we do is you're just pulling the ring.
6:54
And so you go into the center and whoever's in the room, you get a minute.
6:59
So they come into the, you know, whatever position and you got to go for a minute.
7:02
But here's the thing.
7:03
It's a difference between a starting pitcher and a relief pitcher, right?
7:06
So if you are trying to throw a hundred pitches and go seven innings and get a quality start,
7:11
you may be not going to try to light it up in the first inning, but if you're coming
7:14
out of the bullpen and the manager's like, bro, I need 10 pitches.
7:18
That's all I need.
7:19
You're just.
7:20
Yeah.
7:21
And so that's what you're getting.
7:22
You're getting everyone's most ferocious one minute and, you know, it's just about survival.
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But it's first time we did three birthdays all the same time.
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So people just rotated in on all of us.
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So there were 13 dudes there.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, 12, 13, something like that.
7:33
12, 13.
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Okay.
7:35
Probably not.
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Yes.
7:37
Really?
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I was not expecting this, but Robert Lewis, who's been on the forging table before.
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Oh, he's a freaking killer.
7:43
Uh, his son, oh, his son, I use the term son loosely because that would make you think
7:51
he's like a normal size human, but he's 18 years old.
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I think he's about 225, right?
7:58
But he's just strong.
8:00
He just exists in the strength world.
8:02
He doesn't do any lifting or really do any of that type of stuff, but he's done a lot
8:05
of Jiu Jitsu and stuff like that.
8:06
And so it's getting towards the end of his round.
8:09
I'm worried about the next person.
8:11
And so he's trying to put hooks in to take my back.
8:14
And so I'm just kind of, you know, defending the hooks and all that.
8:17
And then all of a sudden he just throws both of his arms around my neck and immediately
8:21
start squeezing.
8:22
And I thought about defending for about half a second before I realized he's either going
8:26
to put me out or break my jaw before the timer goes off.
8:28
And so yeah.
8:29
He is the epitome of one of those guys that he is so nice and calm and gentle.
8:34
And he's so, he's so courteous and if like you're at a bar and he's at the other side,
8:40
he's kind of a bigger guy, but he's not somebody that's self-imposing, not somebody that you
8:45
know.
8:46
But the second he gets ahold of you, it's an immediate, I have made the wrong decision
8:50
in my life.
8:51
This is not good.
8:52
I had no idea what I was about to get myself into.
8:55
He is a dang, I've told this to Robert multiple times.
8:58
He is a dangerous human at 18 and you have, he's extremely unassuming.
9:02
You would have no idea.
9:03
Yeah.
9:04
So that's another commercial for all the listeners out there for Jiu Jitsu and for the other half
9:09
of the table and for the, this part of the table that maybe only shows up in trains once
9:13
a month.
9:14
I'm a lifetime, a lifetime white belt.
9:15
I've been training for what nine, nine years now?
9:18
Nine years.
9:19
I do not.
9:20
I'm a nine year.
9:21
Nine year, nine year white belt.
9:22
It's not a good thing to be.
9:24
We got some like, you know, 20 year blue belts like floating around.
9:27
I think I have 17 stripes at this point.
9:29
Yeah.
9:30
So I'm just saying, don't you want to be the unassuming guy at the bar?
9:33
To where you're just like, oh, they just don't know.
9:35
Like one of my favorite quotes that's ever come out, come out of our group.
9:37
So Russ, who kind of started our group, he's been a purple belt for like 74 years or something
9:42
like that.
9:43
It's been, it's been a long time since he was back in a normal class, but he was on a cruise
9:46
ship and he's, you know, he's a bigger guy.
9:48
He's like six, three played football at Oklahoma State.
9:51
I think he still to this day holds the record for number of tackles for a kicker in OSU
9:58
history or something like that.
9:59
So he would not kick the ball and stay there.
10:01
He would kick the ball and then try to be the first hat on the, uh, the guy that accepted
10:05
the kickoff.
10:06
But anyway, he's, I think he's like on a cruise ship or something like that.
10:09
And this dude at the bar, he's a little soft, uh, and he just decides I'm going to pick
10:13
on, I'm going to pick on the big guy.
10:14
I'm just going to start picking on him, start agitating him and Russ is very calm, right?
10:18
He was very calm to begin with, but then you know, when you train that much, you just
10:21
get calmer because you just get smashed like for, you know, years on end before you ever
10:26
get any good.
10:28
And this guy's like, you know, I was like, Hey man, just fighting and all that.
10:32
And Russ at one point, just to kind of shut the guy up, he goes, buddy, I've had my butt
10:37
kicked enough in life to know what it takes.
10:39
You just don't have what it takes.
10:41
And the guy was just like, cause it's such a brutal thing to say to a stranger.
10:45
That's trying to kind of egg you want to get you into physical altercation.
10:48
Cause it's like, dude, I know precisely what it's going to take to, uh, allow this to happen.
10:53
And you just don't have it in you.
10:54
Yeah.
10:55
Russ, Russ.
10:56
Russ, uh, neon chested me, you have the very technical move of neon chest for about four
11:03
minutes.
11:04
I was like, what is this?
11:05
I think he was like, this is just this, this is the starting position.
11:09
You know, you need to do something from here.
11:11
So one time he put me in body lock and this was, I'd only been training for a year.
11:16
And it's the first time I ever felt it.
11:18
And I immediately tapped and he just looked reached around me and it goes, no, no, no.
11:23
You don't tap to that.
11:24
That's not a thing.
11:25
That's just, you're not allowed to tap.
11:27
And I was like, what do you mean?
11:28
My insides were about to fricking come out my butt hole.
11:31
Yeah.
11:32
I am about to, I need to tap.
11:33
It's like, no, you're fine.
11:34
See, let me do this again and a squeeze, the living fricking crap out of me.
11:39
No, I mean, that's the thing that I've, I've made a lot of people tap to body triangle.
11:43
And I will loosen up a little bit and I'll say that's not a submission.
11:46
That's just pressure.
11:47
You got to get used to pressure.
11:48
Let's go.
11:49
Even if it's like their first day, but.
11:50
I need to do it.
11:51
Did you go learn someplace and then jump in?
11:54
Or did you just been going and getting abused by these guys?
11:57
No, Kyle and I started at the same time.
11:59
We started doing Sunday school on Sunday nights, 2016.
12:06
I would say we were, you know, Kyle would win 60% of the time.
12:10
I win 40% of the time.
12:11
We were kind of both athletically about the same.
12:13
He was a little bit stronger than me, but we could just scrap and figure stuff out.
12:17
And then he has taken it to a completely mellow level and I only trained at American elite
12:20
for like nine months, 10 months.
12:23
We're in the game.
12:24
I'm only a no-ghee, no-ghee guy.
12:26
So if I get in the ghee, anybody trashes me, but still Kyle has just continued to train
12:30
and continue to train.
12:31
It's like learning a new language.
12:32
I don't, I don't, I don't even speak the language anymore.
12:35
So if you're not sitting there doing it regular over and over and over, you just lose it and
12:39
I forget so much.
12:40
There was one time where you were feeling a little big for your britches.
12:43
Oh, man.
12:44
I think I was a blue belt or a purple belt and you, we made some sort of bet and you're
12:48
just like, I bet you can't tap me five times and around.
12:51
And I think we were just doing five minute rounds.
12:54
And if you think about it in your head, even if you're good, like getting the guy down,
12:57
getting them into a position where you can be in a dominant position because like you're
13:01
probably not going to get tapped by Neil and Belly, but it takes a lot of work to kind
13:05
of get to the position where you can make someone tap and I go, yeah, bet, let's go.
13:10
And I think 13, yeah, I think it was 13 or 14 times in five minutes.
13:14
I mean, and it just, and I just didn't really let my foot off the gas.
13:18
I was like, okay, I'll show you.
13:19
That's how ridiculous it is, like his fitness level is way higher than it is mine and maybe
13:24
we were close to similar now.
13:25
So that's some of it.
13:26
But the skill that he has accumulated and the knowledge that he has, it's, it's not even
13:31
fun anymore.
13:32
Like when I roll with him, I just know my life is in his hands at within five seconds.
13:38
So, and I can feel it.
13:39
I know he's toying with me.
13:41
I know when I do something stupid, I'm like, oh, he could have just broke my arm.
13:44
Oh, he could have just destroyed my knee.
13:47
Anything at any time, it's always available to him and I am completely defenseless and
13:52
it's so frustrating because eight years ago, it would have been different, but it's different
13:56
now.
13:57
Yeah.
13:58
So Gordon Ryan, who's probably, he's not probably, he is the greatest no gi grappler
14:01
of all time, maybe the greatest Jiu Jitsu champion of all time.
14:04
And he became that at like 25 years and years old, he was asking a podcast, he was being
14:09
interviewed by Chris Angel, the, the magician guy or whatever, the illusionist.
14:13
And he was just talking about like, Hey, have you been in a street fight?
14:15
Like how have you seen Jiu Jitsu because like tournament Jiu Jitsu is not something you
14:19
normally would see in a street fight.
14:20
There's a certain positions that you would never do if asphalt was on your back as opposed
14:23
to a nice cushy mat.
14:25
And the way Gordon Ryan talked about it, it only makes sense to people that have trained
14:29
for a decent amount of time.
14:31
But he goes in all the street fights I've been in, it's been like, and then he stops
14:36
himself.
14:37
He goes, when you go against somebody who doesn't train, it's like fighting a child because
14:43
they think because of their size or their athleticism, or they used to play football
14:46
in high school, that that's going to help them.
14:50
And it's just like they, he's like, you, you know, you fain to take down.
14:53
If you even touch their legs, they just fall over because they don't know how to sprawl,
14:57
they don't know how to move their body.
14:58
And then, you know, you just get on top of them and they can't get you off.
15:02
Like when Russ put his knee on your belly, if I, if you're a dummy in the crowd, you just
15:05
say, Russ, stand up.
15:07
Hey, hey, just stand up.
15:09
You just just stand up.
15:10
And then you're in the position you're like, oh, I can barely move much less choose to
15:14
stand up.
15:15
Yeah.
15:16
And people just don't really breathe.
15:17
I just wanting to breathe.
15:19
The day I got destroyed by somebody who was 130 pounds that I outweighed by 80 pounds,
15:25
and I could do nothing.
15:27
That was the eye opening moment for me.
15:28
I'm like, this is something different.
15:31
Why in the world would 130 pound little man be able to control me and make me completely
15:40
defenseless?
15:41
Well, like that should not happen.
15:42
That's the ego trip of jujitsu, Jake's being awfully quiet.
15:45
But so you guys in, are we going to do another quad pinky promise on everybody going to
15:49
start?
15:50
I'm not ever quad pinky promising again.
15:52
We should put hands in.
15:53
We're all going to train that the first part guys.
15:57
We're all going to train.
15:58
I'm looking into going back into it.
16:01
That is the middle thing I think I've ever heard.
16:03
Would you work for a PR agency like I'm looking into maybe committing possible issue.
16:07
I'm thinking I'm not thinking I'm going right back into a Sunday.
16:11
I want to go learn some like I want to go learn a little bit to know a little bit before
16:16
I jump back in.
16:17
So it's actually the opposite because there's nothing easier than what we do on Sundays.
16:24
Because if you go into the forge in Edmond, Oklahoma, and you go to like a basic so on
16:29
Tuesday night, that's whenever I train with Steve Jones, he's the main black belt that
16:32
trains me second degree black belt, they will have the advanced class on one side, right?
16:38
So that's typically blue belt and above, right?
16:41
And then the other side has white belts.
16:42
So it could be your first class.
16:43
You've been training for a year and a half or under kind of a situation.
16:48
But at the end of class, we combine to roll.
16:51
So this could be your first class and the professor, he picks out the rounds he could
16:56
put you with me.
16:58
Now the reason he puts white belts like super novice white belts with quality purple brown
17:04
black belts is because he knows for one, the purple brown and black belts are not just
17:08
going to like try to destroy the person and beat the absolute dog [inaudible] out of them.
17:12
But they're going to let them know, right?
17:14
They'll talk to him a little bit during the round like, Hey, don't do that.
17:17
Or Hey, you know, let go of this.
17:19
This doesn't do anything.
17:20
But they also know at some point during the round, we're going to show them, right?
17:23
But either at the beginning at the end, like, dude, you couldn't even hurt my feelings.
17:28
So don't worry about like, you know, hurting me physically, but you just have to feel it.
17:33
Because if you don't, if you've never felt it before, if you've never felt that helpless
17:36
feeling of there's nothing I can do to get out of this position, it's just not helpful.
17:40
So Sunday night, the reason why I say it's such a is a good thing for people to show up
17:44
and dude, we've had people drive from Arkansas, Texas, just to show up on a Sunday night to
17:48
train with our group like in the last few months.
17:51
It's no key, so you don't have to buy a geek, like figure that whole thing out.
17:55
Like we're doing a book study at the time, like right now we're reading ordinary men.
18:00
And then, you know, we'll do a little workout warm up.
18:01
And then it's super basic jujitsu stuff, like, so it's good enough for guys that are experienced,
18:06
but it's also good enough for guys that have never done anything before.
18:11
We typically try to do like whenever I teach, I try to do a lot positional sparring as opposed
18:16
to just downright rolling.
18:17
Because if you and I just slap bummed go, you don't know anything, like you don't know
18:21
what to do.
18:22
You don't know what not to do.
18:23
But if I put you in a position that is similar to the position I just showed the move in,
18:28
you at least have a category for, okay, I don't want him to get this arm because if
18:32
he does, then he might break it kind of a thing.
18:35
It's way less intimidating on Sunday nights.
18:37
When you walk into a gym and a bunch of dudes are there ready to go and bounce in, it's
18:42
intimidating.
18:43
If you walk in, you don't know anything.
18:45
And you don't know, and those guys, some guys have a, they're trying to prove something
18:47
to their dad while they're rolling with a stranger on a Wednesday night.
18:51
It's more danger.
18:52
It's more danger, more dangers on there than Sunday night.
18:54
Sunday night's pretty, pretty safe place.
18:56
Other than what did I do to you one time, um, what was I trying to get out?
19:01
No, I almost broke my own ankle.
19:03
Yeah.
19:04
Why did, how did that happen?
19:05
Was I, did I freak out?
19:06
Probably.
19:07
Probably freaked out.
19:08
We did some white belt stuff.
19:09
Yeah.
19:10
And then I also broke our, but my buddy's collarbone and that was not my fault.
19:13
He just landed awkward on there.
19:14
Yeah.
19:15
As his fault.
19:16
He kind of, he kind of rolls like an idiot.
19:17
Yeah.
19:18
But you don't, you didn't really have a whole lot to say for the last little bit of take.
19:21
What's, why are you being so quiet?
19:22
So, yeah.
19:23
I don't really, I don't know.
19:24
You'd be a problem.
19:25
You'd be a problem.
19:26
Well, you really would never want to more of a puncher, but somehow I doubt that as well.
19:33
Yeah.
19:34
No.
19:35
Yeah.
19:36
But I mean, I, I would do it.
19:39
It's, I don't, I don't have the margin for it right now.
19:42
It's just that don't have the margin for me.
19:45
Don't look at me.
19:46
I'm not.
19:47
Put your fingers on his temple.
19:48
See if he's telling the truth.
19:49
Come on.
19:50
Come on.
19:51
Russ, get over.
19:52
I got no idea.
19:53
How about this?
19:54
How about I'll let you try to punch me while we're doing digital since you're more of a
19:57
puncher.
19:58
I am more of a puncher.
19:59
Yeah.
20:00
You can try to blood sport me and then I'll just do jiu jitsu.
20:02
The problem is if you actually catch him and then you see red, he sees red.
20:07
It's a problem.
20:08
Really.
20:09
It's a problem.
20:10
Funny thing.
20:11
I heard he was towards the end of fight club towards the end of one of our practices and
20:16
he says, Hey, let's do an MMA round for, but we had big like 16 ounce gloves on.
20:22
And when we're sparring, we're not sparring to hurt each other.
20:24
We're just kind of touching each other and all that where you're like, you're not trying
20:26
to leave with a concussion or a bloody nose or whatever.
20:29
And so, but in my head, I was in kickboxing mode.
20:32
And so I'm like, you know, I've got my shin guards on one.
20:33
I'm just kind of moving around.
20:34
And then he shoots and I like, what is he doing?
20:38
Oh MMA.
20:39
I, I agreed to this.
20:40
And so I sprawl and, you know, it was, it was no big deal.
20:44
And then I just immediately go to mount.
20:47
And so I'm in mount.
20:48
And so again, I've got 16 ounce gloves on and I'm just barely tapping him.
20:51
Like I'm wanting him to keep his guard up, you know, and all those types of things.
20:54
And I'm just barely tapping him, making sure he's moving his guard.
20:57
And he decides from bottom position to throw a haymaker.
21:01
Oh no.
21:02
And now from bottom position, you can't get a whole lot on it because it's, it hits me
21:06
everywhere in the middle of my face. And in that exact moment, seeing red is precisely
21:12
what happened.
21:13
So for about five or six seconds, I just, I mean, I go full mounted, ground and pound.
21:20
And then I like realize, okay, this is a, this is a problem.
21:23
So I mean, I'm hitting him pretty hard.
21:25
And then so I back back off and then the round ends and he gets up and he's got a black
21:28
eye.
21:29
And I think he's, he was bleeding from his nose and all that.
21:32
His first words were my bad.
21:34
I was just like, cause he knew he's like, I went for something that I didn't think was
21:41
going to work.
21:42
And it did.
21:43
And it ended up being too, uh, very, very negative.
21:46
I got it.
21:47
I was like, yeah, that's my bad.
21:48
So this is about a Jacob wrestling with God, right?
21:50
Is that what we're studying?
21:51
Yeah.
21:52
Yeah.
21:53
So, uh, but you got to just, at some point, you got to be Jacob that wrestles through
21:56
the night.
21:57
And so you can't do that unless you do a single class, you know what I mean?
22:00
I mean, I feel like I have all these pro wrestling moves that are just kind of ready to be
22:04
in it.
22:05
Oh, you should try, try those, those will work.
22:09
I think you should try.
22:11
Let's, I mean, we don't have any turnbuckles or anything, but it's worth the show.
22:17
I'm going to hit the flying elbow on somebody.
22:19
That's what I'm going to do.
22:20
I agree.
22:21
People will do it.
22:22
Yeah.
22:23
You should absolutely keep my eyebrow at the entire time we're doing that, but we'll get
22:26
off the Jiu Jitsu commercial and we'll get back into Romans.
22:29
Again, guys, we were crawling our way through Romans, uh, we're obviously, uh, not doing
22:33
an entire chapter.
22:34
So if you've been a fan of the forging table and you've missed out on several weeks with
22:38
Romans, we're just basically setting the timer and then we're seeing how far we get for an
22:41
hour.
22:42
So last week we ended at Romans one 10.
22:45
So today we're going to start in Romans one 11.
22:47
So Jake, if you will read 11 and 12 and he's reading from the ESV.
22:52
Yeah.
22:54
For I long to see you that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to strengthen you.
22:58
That is that we may mutually, that we may mutually encourage by each other's faith, both yours
23:04
and mine.
23:05
I do not want you to just 11 or 12, so overzealous turd, uh, and imagine if you could put that
23:11
overzealousness into the physicality of dominating another human being against the will.
23:16
But the first thing that just jumps out of me on the, these couple of verses is for I
23:19
long to see you.
23:21
He is so eager to see the church in Rome.
23:26
And again, looking at the context here, this is roughly 20 years after his conversion.
23:31
He's been on several missionary journeys at this point.
23:35
This was very likely written when he was in Corinth, 54, 55, 56 AD, something like that.
23:42
But he so desperately wants to get to the church in Rome.
23:44
And as of the writing of this letter, he is three years away from actually making that
23:48
happen.
23:49
Again, he ends up being imprisoned in Rome and, you know, there's all the things therein,
23:52
but he is so excited to get there.
23:55
It's almost like he can, he can just taste it and he wants to encourage them.
23:58
He wants to be encouraged by them.
24:00
So you can just get a sense of the personality of Paul here, but also his desires as well.
24:04
It definitely struck me that he said he, it was helpful for him to be encouraged as well.
24:09
And so some of the commentary that I read talked about every pastor needs to be encouraged.
24:13
So often the work of the pastor in our day is an exercise in discouragement.
24:17
The pastor is fair game for all criticism.
24:19
And every Sunday afternoon, people have roast your pastor for dinner.
24:23
It also goes on to continue an example of like, let's say the pastor goes up front
24:27
and 50 people come up and talk to him, 49 people come up and they give him praises.
24:31
Thank you.
24:32
This was great.
24:33
I really appreciate it.
24:34
And that 50th person comes up and comes and is nothing but negative and just breaks
24:38
him down.
24:39
It's like, I didn't agree with this.
24:40
I didn't agree with that.
24:41
What's our human nature?
24:42
The human nature, the pastor is going to go home and he's going to think about that 50th
24:45
person and that 50th person is going to gnaw at him and just kind of, you know, be a thorn
24:49
in his side and constantly bother him, that 50th person.
24:52
You know, we bring these people up as our pastors to listen to him, but they need encouragement
24:58
as well.
24:59
And we look at Paul and we think, surely Paul's got it figured out.
25:01
I mean, he's been called by an apostle by Jesus Christ.
25:04
Why does he need to be built up or encouraged by a bunch of Gentiles and Rome?
25:09
You know, what good could they possibly do?
25:11
But he, he found it important enough to put it in the scripture that they're going to
25:15
encourage him, which is reassuring to me.
25:18
Again, I think this whole Roman, this, this Roman church in general is an encouragement
25:25
to the body of believers as a whole, you know, because this is just so far away.
25:31
This was a, a ministry put on his heart, you know, long ago, he's been, he's been wanting
25:38
to see this longing to be there.
25:42
And this church in Rome is the epitome of what the disciples, what the apostles got from
25:47
Christ when he left and he said, go, you're going to, you're going to spread this testimony
25:52
throughout the ends of the earth.
25:53
And to them, Rome is like where you go to start getting it to the ends of the earth.
25:58
Like this is where it needs to be to really see out the mission.
26:02
And so not only are they individually an encouragement for him, like one on one, you're encouraging
26:09
me.
26:10
But just the fact that their ministry has done what it has done and that church has grown
26:15
like it has grown being that separated from everything.
26:18
And like you said, there's a, there's a lot of conflict with Rome over the church, but
26:22
they are, they are so proud of this church or so happy to see this church survive because
26:28
it gives them insight into the future to say, if we can survive in Rome with, with this
26:33
light or this separation between the apostles and Paul can't get there and all this stuff,
26:38
if we can survive this and the, and the Roman church is flourishing, we can go anywhere
26:43
guys.
26:44
That is true.
26:45
He's going to be with us to the end of the ages.
26:47
He's with us.
26:48
So I wonder, one quick thing on your point, Adam, Tom Rainer, T H O M Rainer RAINER, he's
26:53
been on the podcast twice, 520 and 402.
26:57
He has these little books about basically encouraging your pastor about how a lot of
27:00
guys, a lot of churches dying, a lot of pastors fall away because they, they are just constantly
27:05
feeding on a diet of criticism and like no encouragement.
27:09
No one's praying for their pastor.
27:10
So check out his, his stuff as a pertains to that, but what you were saying, Russ, I'm
27:15
curious as, as you were saying that because at this time in history, Rome is the most
27:19
populous city in the world.
27:22
Second was Alexandria, third is Ephesus, right?
27:26
But right now, it's almost like if you're a missionary right now, I think that the most
27:31
populated city in the world is Tokyo and I think the second is Delhi, India and I think
27:37
the third would be Shanghai, somewhere in China, it's something like that or something,
27:42
something in and around that area to where it's like, or let's just make it just in an
27:46
American context.
27:47
Hey, if I can get, if I can make it in New York, right, if I can make it in NYC, I can make
27:51
it anywhere.
27:52
I remember having that thought whenever I worked for major league baseball, doing that weird
27:56
job back in 2012 to where I'm like, yeah, you know, I'm, you know, I was good at, you
28:01
know, the university central Oklahoma, which is, you know, a pretty big school in Oklahoma,
28:05
man, I don't know that I could compete against people somewhere else.
28:08
And that what that year did for me in a lot of ways has showed me that I could compete
28:12
with, with people on a national scale in New York City.
28:16
And that was an encouraging thing that actually kind of teed up a lot with Undaunted to where
28:20
I wasn't really, because I'm very pessimistic.
28:22
And so it's like, I may have never launched a podcast if I ever thought, you know, I can't
28:26
do this and I had no illusions that it would become what it, what it is today.
28:29
But do y'all get the sense because we don't have his exact motivation for why Rome, like
28:34
why was he so fervently wanting to get to the church in Rome as opposed to just revisiting
28:38
some places he had already been on previous missionary journeys?
28:40
Well, doesn't he say earlier that it was part of his calling?
28:44
Maybe I'm reading into that, um, trying to read the beginning of it.
28:48
Maybe it was in another, another book or an accident when he was talking about that he
28:54
felt like that the Lord was leading to that.
28:57
I mean, I'll look that up.
28:59
I think, I think if you want to try and lead it in, read it into the context of right after
29:04
that the, the, some spiritual gift to strengthen you, I mean, to me, as I'm reading it, it's
29:11
Paul has said some sort of vision or draw or something to Rome, uh, that essentially essentially
29:22
has put him in the mind frame of this is just, I have to go there.
29:27
And I, and I, I think I don't know that all of us have maybe had that experience, but I'm
29:34
sure there's probably things that you can probably look at in hindsight in 2020 and,
29:39
and say, you know, maybe I, I, I felt led there and I went there and it was everything
29:48
I hoped it would be, you know, I, to me, it's always a, I, I started thinking about like
29:55
all the times in my life when I went to some place where maybe I didn't know a soul and
30:02
somehow just felt comfortable there and like, oh, well, this is just where I'm supposed
30:09
to be.
30:10
Uh, and I think that's probably a little bit what Paul's going through here too is like,
30:14
I just know I'm supposed to be there.
30:15
I don't, I can't explain it.
30:17
So some of the things I also read was that possibly the church got started from the day
30:21
of Pentecost.
30:22
There were some people that were there and they went back to Rome and so the church had
30:24
got started all by itself possibly without even any apostles having gone there yet.
30:29
And then Paul was also a Roman, right?
30:32
He was a Roman.
30:33
And so Roman citizen never been a Rome.
30:34
Yeah.
30:35
Yeah.
30:36
It's almost like Maximus and Gladier where he was fighting for a place, but you've never
30:39
been there.
30:40
Right.
30:41
So I had read some, some commentary about both of those things kind of being why it was
30:45
on Paul's heart because he thought it was amazing how well the church had had survived
30:50
through the scrutiny.
30:51
Like we, we mentioned in the last episode about Claudius, the emperor, emperor kicking
30:55
these people out, you know, the scrutiny that they've, they had been under in a big
30:59
city like that.
31:01
And so I think he looked at it a little bit differently than some of the other places
31:04
that he'd been.
31:05
Were you able to find a rush?
31:07
No.
31:08
So, yeah, it says many people think Peter maybe was the start, but just the idea, just
31:16
the idea that, uh, I agree with what you said about the idea that he is the Roman, you
31:22
know, he's got it.
31:23
He has that some, some part of his identity still is that this, this, this road Roman
31:28
citizenship and whenever we're Christians, we should be looking at the uniqueness of
31:33
our situation and looking for ways that God can use it.
31:37
I think Paul was doing that in everything.
31:39
We see it.
31:40
We, we see him do that with his background as being a Pharisee.
31:43
We see it do him do that with his ability to speak to the Jews.
31:48
And now I think he sees this as, okay, the Jews first, now there's a lot of people in
31:53
Rome that need to know exactly what happened.
31:55
And I'm gifted in this way that I can explain it to the Jews and I can explain to the Greeks.
32:01
And yeah, I assume this has already been potentially discussed, but he's writing this from Corinth,
32:06
right?
32:07
And he's still at the time he's writing this.
32:08
He hasn't been there yet.
32:10
He's in prison.
32:11
Right.
32:12
I mean, he has the Trump card, he has the card that gets him out of prison and gets him,
32:16
he gets him to Caesar and he does not use it for three times.
32:19
He goes to trial three different times and finally the third time he's like, you know
32:23
what?
32:24
He appeals to us.
32:25
Dad, come it.
32:26
I'm a Roman.
32:27
Get me to Caesar.
32:28
It's like he could have done that at any point.
32:29
Yeah.
32:30
I think, I think a big reason if you kind of fast forward a little bit here to Romans 15,
32:34
he actually said, this is the reason why I've been so often been hindered from coming
32:38
to you and right before that, he's talking about essentially that his ministry to the
32:44
Gentiles.
32:46
So in a very real way, you know, it's kind of odd to think about, but he's had these
32:52
barriers to actually get to Rome so that and the barrier was essentially Paul has to learn
32:59
how to preach to the Gentiles.
33:01
Again, I'll go back to anytime he starts referencing Old Testament scripture within Romans, just
33:07
understand he's talking to Jews at that point.
33:09
It does not mean anything to a Gentile to quote Old Testament scripture.
33:14
So whenever he's learning how to minister to them, he can't call back to what he's been
33:19
taught his entire life.
33:21
So over a 20 year timeframe, he's had to educate himself on how to actually reach a Gentile
33:26
with a gospel message that would be so strong to the Jewish people because the gospel message
33:32
is littered all through the Old Testament, but it is not apparent to a Gentile.
33:37
I mean, again, think about the people that you talk to that just were like, I just don't
33:41
under I'm a good person.
33:42
I don't I'm what do I need to be saved?
33:45
I'm a good person.
33:46
It's really no different here.
33:47
How do you explain to someone that they need a savior when they don't even know what I
33:51
mean, especially think about the culture they're living in at this time, like the Romans were
33:56
just a debase like the base depraved culture and they had gods literally to their debauchery.
34:03
Yeah.
34:04
I mean, and that's what part of the problem with doing ministry work in Rome was Jesus
34:10
was being added to the pantheon.
34:12
Right.
34:13
Yeah.
34:14
Yeah.
34:15
Yeah.
34:16
As Jesus perfect.
34:17
And so again, now, if you're even vaguely church, the exclusivity of Christianity is
34:21
not anathema to you or not to get used Catholic language, but it's not it doesn't it doesn't
34:27
strike you as bitter.
34:28
It doesn't strike you as odd because you just know it.
34:31
Now it may not make you feel good to be like, well, it shouldn't there be multiple ways
34:35
to God and different things like that.
34:37
But there are exclusive claims, truth claims in the Bible as it pertains to Jesus and the
34:43
gospel.
34:44
And one quick thing I did want to do a quick John because I noticed this a second ago.
34:47
So all of us have these, uh, cross way, uh, Romans, like journal things, but I've got
34:52
the spiral ones here.
34:53
So we've all got those.
34:54
So shout outs, cross way percent in us, a bucket of those, but I didn't even remember
34:57
that this one existed.
34:58
So Jake's got the study edition.
35:00
So on the right side, you've got all the journal pages, but on the left side, you have
35:04
the scripture, but in the bottom, you have the same study notes as the ESV study Bible,
35:07
which I've said before, if I could own a single Bible, it would be the cross way English
35:12
standard version study Bible.
35:14
It is absolutely spectacular.
35:15
Even if you don't carry it with you to church, it should be on your shelf and be used.
35:18
Uh, and also guys, go check out the show notes, a cross way.
35:21
And I worked on a forging table starter set a couple of years ago.
35:24
So you're trying to start a Bible study, a forging table with your foxhole or mat toters
35:28
or whatever.
35:29
Go and check that out.
35:30
It's five different books.
35:31
One is a Roman study journal.
35:32
Uh, one is a men's study Bible.
35:35
And what am I looking at here?
35:36
This is the logs.
35:37
Yeah.
35:38
Yeah.
35:39
And so, and then also, um, so check out the, the cross way stuff in the show notes and
35:42
then also the log, Bible software, so whether you're looking at it on a tablet on your phone
35:46
or on a computer, you can check that out.
35:48
And also you can get out of discount if you use our code and use our link that is in the
35:52
show notes for just about every forging table episode for the last year or two.
35:55
So, uh, other stuff that you want to hop back in on that, uh, anything else on 11 and 12
36:00
before we move to the next little chunk.
36:01
All right.
36:02
We can, uh, we'll, we'll just go 11 through 15.
36:04
That'll kind of be our focus, uh, perhaps for the rest of the episode.
36:07
So, uh, Adam, go ahead and read 13, 14 and 15.
36:13
I do not want you to be, uh, unaware brothers that I have often intended to come to you,
36:17
but thus far have been prevented in order that I may reap some harvest among you as
36:21
well as among the rest of the Gentiles.
36:24
I am under obligation both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish.
36:29
So I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome.
36:34
So verse 13, uh, in order that I may reap some harvest among you as well as among the
36:39
rest of the Gentiles.
36:40
Again, the implication there is his audience will be basically fully Gentiles there in
36:46
Rome.
36:47
As, as Adam, as you pointed out, uh, the Christian Jews would have been expelled by, uh, Emperor
36:52
Claudius.
36:53
At this point, um, only Gentiles would have been left.
36:56
I, I use that kind of an open and an overwrought kind of a way.
37:01
Certainly there were, uh, some Jews there and things like that, but it would have been
37:04
an incredible minority and we, I don't get any indication historically from the timeline
37:08
that very many will have trickled back at this time.
37:12
And so Paul is very well aware that he is writing to a Gentile believer audience and
37:16
a Gentile non-believer audience.
37:18
And he is wanting to go there and to be a preacher of the gospel to the Greeks and to
37:24
the barbarians.
37:25
And so some people have taken offense by the use of barbarians there, but you know, in
37:28
that day, it would not, it would have just been like a class, like a classification of
37:32
people. He's basically just describing like, he's essentially saying, I'm here for all
37:36
of you.
37:37
Yeah.
37:38
For you.
37:39
And so like the, well, we were listening to a pastor and he was saying that the barbarians,
37:44
so you had the Greeks and they were considered the civilized world and then they considered.
37:49
So kind of like what the Jews did with the Gentiles, Gentiles just being everybody else.
37:52
Well, Greeks, everybody else with barbarians.
37:55
And they, he said that the word came from the idea of that they didn't understand their
38:00
language. And then whenever they talked, they would kind of make fun of it.
38:04
Bar, bar, bar, bar, bar, bar, bar, bar, barbarians, you know.
38:07
And then that's basically what the word means is, is like this, this gibberish speakers
38:13
and stuff.
38:14
And so for them, I do think it is neat that he is saying like, Hey, I'm, I'm coming here
38:19
for you and for them.
38:21
And he has the idea that God has prepared like, like just what Jesus said, you know, the harvest
38:27
is ready.
38:28
The workers are few.
38:29
He has that idea everywhere he goes.
38:30
He's like, man, God is brewing something.
38:33
I just can't wait to be a part of like, I'm going to go there and there's going to be
38:35
a harvest and it's not about him, but he still realizes the effort that he needs to have
38:41
for that harvest.
38:43
It makes me wonder a little bit on the cow, you know, we kind of talked about the Calvinist
38:47
side of stuff.
38:48
I mean, this, this seems to me to be an indication of a little bit of he does feel some responsibility
38:54
to go and be a part of reaping that harvest.
38:58
I don't know how that plays into all that, you know, whether or not those people would,
39:02
would come to know the Lord without him coming with somebody else come.
39:05
Um, did anybody have to come, you know, on that side of stuff?
39:09
I wanted to you up to talk about what Mark talked about today, uh, but I couldn't help
39:13
but when you're saying the explaining the bar bar thing, so is that basically the first
39:16
century version of like boom, how are from being in the hell is that what we're dealing
39:20
with?
39:21
We're just back now.
39:22
They, they just release this back at King of the Hill is back and I think you get really
39:25
highly rated guys.
39:27
King of the Hill is.
39:28
I don't, I don't know.
39:29
King of the Hill.
39:30
I'm thinking, uh, the Adam Sandler movies, the guy that's there for sure.
39:33
Oh, that's, uh, from Waterboy.
39:35
Yeah.
39:36
Waterboy.
39:37
Yeah.
39:38
Yeah.
39:39
Yeah.
39:40
No, we're talking about the cartoon.
39:41
Like the animated cartoon with like the redneck family or whatever.
39:42
Yeah.
39:43
I know.
39:44
King of the Hill.
39:45
I don't know.
39:46
I don't know.
39:47
What do you do?
39:48
I sell propane and propane.
39:49
It's us.
39:50
Wow.
39:51
That's good.
39:52
We're doing it.
39:53
Hey, and again, this is a couple of months afterwards.
39:54
So maybe the, uh, the big meteoric rerise of King of the Hill has passed, but don't worry.
39:57
No, but, but to that point, uh, just today, again, um, Adam and Winkler and I, we all
40:01
go to a church that, uh, reads the Bible and believes it.
40:04
And we, uh, basically, um, it's, it's very expository verse by verse and Dr. Mark Hitchcock,
40:11
who is our lead pastor has been lead pastor of Faith Bible and Edmund for like 30 plus
40:14
years or whatever.
40:15
We just started Ephesians.
40:17
And so last week again, recording this in the past, uh, last week, he, um, did a setup
40:24
for Ephesians.
40:25
He set up Ephesians and did like Ephesians one or Ephesians, like one, one Ephesians
40:29
one, two, like maybe, and then today it was just Ephesians one, three and four.
40:35
And he did tee up a conversation, um, uh, if one of y'all will bring up Ephesians, one
40:40
real quick, uh, just in your Bible, if you'll turn to it or whatever, because I think this
40:44
is pertinent to our discussion because he read Ephesians one, three and four.
40:49
So whenever when he all gets it, just, if you wouldn't mind reading it, uh, Ephesians one,
40:55
three and four.
40:56
And then I'll tee up Adam.
40:57
So
40:57
One, three and four.
40:58
Yes, sir.
40:59
Blessed be the God of best would be the God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ who has
41:04
blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places.
41:10
Even as he chose us and him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and
41:15
blameless before him, chose us being the operative words there, that every Calvinist
41:21
tuliper looks at that and goes, yes, see more on this is the one, all the cage stages
41:26
out there.
41:27
Some of you are in the honest, chill out, relax, but, um, Mark basically signaled from the
41:33
beginning of the sermon today, Hey, I know this is pulling the pin off of the grenade
41:36
a little bit, but he kind of explained this is in general what Calvinist believe.
41:40
This is in general, what Armenia believed and, uh, but we're, we need to look at what
41:46
the text says and he spent about five minutes caveatting what he was about to get into for
41:50
the next 30.
41:51
But he's basically like, we have to let the text say what it says and mean what it means.
41:56
We talked about that in previous weeks here, um, and we can't read into it what we want
42:01
it to say.
42:02
And we can't read into it.
42:03
Our feelings towards it, but he specifically looked at the chose us passage and brought
42:09
in the debate of Calvinism versus Armenian, as a predestination, free will versus a sovereignty
42:16
of God.
42:17
But Adam, you took copious notes.
42:18
I was behind you over your shoulder, uh, cheating off of your paper.
42:21
So I'll let you take it from there.
42:22
You know, it's interesting because I've, I feel like I've been in the middle of this debate,
42:25
even on this show before with the horn horn, horn, horn and I have kind of gone out this.
42:29
And so I've always been on the Armenian side of things.
42:32
And so it was interesting when this, uh, sermon was over today when I, when I stood up, I've
42:37
been, I've been wrestling with this more than I ever have in my life.
42:39
And when, when I stood up, one of my good friends came up and said, man, I almost walked
42:43
out on that.
42:44
And I was like, I've been in that guy's shoes.
42:45
I know exactly what he meant.
42:47
I understand because the sermon was specifically on, uh, unconditional election.
42:51
So the two looked doctrine for Calvinism, total depravity, unlimited, uh, unconditional
42:56
election, limited atonement, perseverance of the saints, uh, irresistible grace.
43:01
So this is an unconditional election.
43:03
So, uh, he chose us, we did not choose him.
43:06
And so his, his point was I wanted to leave because I don't like that I don't get the
43:11
option.
43:12
I don't get the choice.
43:13
And so one of the things that I've always struggled with is if it really is unconditional
43:17
election, then why are we spreading the gospel?
43:18
What's the point of the gospel?
43:19
What, why does it even fricking matter?
43:22
You know, if I've just been chosen, but the, the, the struggle that I have started to have
43:26
with some of my Armenian views, when I read, when I read it and what my friend Ryan has
43:30
told me is like, it takes some of the glory of God away and it takes the glory of the
43:35
things that he's done for us and the grace that he's given us and it's kind of fricking
43:40
true.
43:41
I sort of have starting to have a struggle with some of the Armenian side of things because
43:45
of that.
43:46
And not only that, in John 15, 16, this is, this is Jesus talking, this is a red word.
43:51
You did not choose me.
43:52
I chose you.
43:53
Okay.
43:54
So there's, there's, there's some issues.
43:57
There's some issues here.
43:58
Well, there was another delineating point that I keyed in on from Mark's message this morning
44:02
was on a witch, which one, what passage was that John 15, 16?
44:07
Go ahead.
44:08
No.
44:09
Yeah, go.
44:10
That's fine.
44:11
Um, one of the things that he brought up as well that I found interesting.
44:14
A lot of Calvinists have made the argument to, to me, which is like, Hey, God just knows
44:19
he knew before time who would choose him.
44:23
So he chose you as the elect.
44:26
But if you say that, that is contradicting scripture with says, no, he chose you before
44:33
time, not that he knew you would choose him because that would make you the initial active
44:37
agent and not God.
44:40
So I kind of look at it.
44:41
I mean, obviously, you know, where I stand, I'm definitely more on the Armenian side.
44:46
I, I liked, I'll quote, Russ and I's friend, Matt Cartwright, the most loving thing that
44:52
God ever did was put a tree in the garden.
44:55
The idea is I don't have to choose God.
44:58
God did not make me choose him.
45:00
It is a truly loving God that would actually say you have a choice not to love me.
45:07
It's a truly loving God that would say you don't have to.
45:10
You have a choice not to, but I'll also, um, I had another thought after that.
45:17
And now it's escaped me.
45:18
I want to, I've always felt that same way.
45:21
I've always felt that to be true.
45:24
But this is, this is a problem, but Romans one, the more I have dug into this and the
45:29
more I have wrestled with Armenianism, it really is starting to like, Oh, I'm not going
45:34
to say completely open my eyes, but man, it is hard to read these words and not come
45:40
to the same conclusion that it is, it is grace on with when you, when you look at the Calvinist
45:46
argument and you start with total depravity, that was sort of an eye opening moment because
45:50
I, we are completely and totally depraved.
45:53
If I am left to my own devices, am I left to be on my own?
45:57
I'm going to make bad freaking choices.
46:00
Yeah.
46:01
Really bad choice.
46:02
Well, and I'm going to do that.
46:03
I think that's agreed upon, you know, state, state.
46:05
Yes.
46:06
So, so, so, well, in the true Armenian view, I wish I could remember what, what the, what
46:11
the alternative is, but they are a true Armenian would not believe that they would not believe
46:15
in complete and total depravity.
46:16
So total depravity is a Calvinist view, and that's number one.
46:19
So if you believe in total depravity, then it naturally leads and Ryan Horn can describe
46:24
this way better than I can.
46:25
But once you believe in total depravity in that we are worthless pieces of crap, worth,
46:31
worthy of death, that's all we deserve, but nobody's going to disagree with that.
46:34
Is death because our, okay, so let's, we don't, we don't disagree with that.
46:38
The Armenian thought process does not disagree with the idea that we are depraved.
46:42
So let's, so let's agree with that.
46:43
Make total depravity in the way, so the wages of sin is death, okay, Roman road, number
46:47
one, down.
46:49
So now what's the unconditional election?
46:51
So if, if, if you are only going to die because of your sin, that is what we deserve, that
46:58
is what we should get, then why do, why is there life after death?
47:03
Why did Jesus come?
47:04
It's because of grace and only God alone.
47:08
Then I want to ask, let me ask you a question.
47:11
Is grace a gift?
47:12
I feel like I'm having an out of body experience because I'm almost defending Calvinism.
47:16
It's, it's difficult for me, but that's where my mind is going.
47:20
But let me, let me ask you, is grace a gift?
47:23
Absolutely.
47:24
Okay.
47:25
Grace is absolutely a gift.
47:26
We all agree with that.
47:27
All right.
47:28
So think of it this way.
47:29
If I give you a gift, if I give you a gift and you open it, does any part of the glory
47:36
of the receipt of that gift belong to you?
47:42
Not the giving of the gift, no, but I did receive the gift.
47:45
And so I, I get to be grateful for the gift.
47:47
What did you do to receive the gift?
47:48
It was undeserved.
47:49
Nothing.
47:50
Right.
47:51
Right.
47:52
It's, if I give a gift to my daughter for her birthday, okay, and she, I give her the
47:56
gift.
47:57
Here's this gift.
47:58
Okay.
47:59
She's done nothing in terms of creating this gift or any, or creating it, purchasing it,
48:05
bringing it to her.
48:07
Nothing.
48:08
She's done nothing.
48:09
But here's the gift.
48:11
She has to open it.
48:13
So to receive the gift, she has to open it.
48:16
And that's where I look at it.
48:17
That's, that's where the loving God comes into it because I have no problem with the
48:21
sovereignty of God.
48:22
But the strict Calvinists would say you're dead.
48:23
You can't open anything.
48:24
Correct.
48:25
Correct.
48:26
And so I, so part of the delineating fact here is that, so our Calvinists believe in
48:31
irresistible grace, Armenians believe in resistible grace, right?
48:35
So obviously way more on the free will side than the, uh, than the sovereignty side of
48:40
things.
48:41
Cause I've never, I don't hear Armenians say that, no, God is not sovereign, but it's
48:45
like he is sovereign over giving us the choices, not sovereign over, right, forcing us to do
48:51
something or else.
48:52
And then what Mark's point this morning was to the evangelism question, because that's
48:55
always been one of my main questions is number one, like, how do you know if you're elect,
48:59
like, how do you know if your kids are elect, like, you know, those types of things.
49:02
But even in Ephesians one, go to verse 13.
49:06
And you also were included in Christ.
49:08
When you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, when you believe you were
49:13
marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy spirit, then it goes on from there.
49:16
But when you heard the message of truth, implicit in the text there is that somebody shared
49:21
it with you.
49:22
And so I've made the argument before, like, Hey, if I were a strict Calvinist, why, what
49:27
would be my motivation to share the gospel other than the fact that we're called to do
49:31
it?
49:32
Because we're called to do a billion things that we don't do that are sinful behaviors.
49:36
And that was Mark's answer, which is later on in the letter, the very first part of this
49:41
letter in Ephesians, Paul is basically saying they have to hear the message in order to
49:47
to accept it or whatever.
49:48
But even in that language, Calvinist will be like, Oh, what did you accept?
49:50
Are you the best acceptor that's ever accepted?
49:52
You didn't do any of that.
49:53
It's given to you. So that's where the struggle gets is it seems a little bit like getting
49:57
into semantics, but that that's kind of the, the further struggle as you extrapolate it
50:02
out into like, are we looking at this through an Armenian, Armenian lens or Calvinist?
50:08
Mark, Mark also referred to, you know, the fact that Paul is in prison, but still sharing
50:12
the gospel at this point.
50:14
So obviously if it's, if you do hold a Calvinist view and you want to take also the view
50:18
that it's not important to share the gospel, then why is Paul sharing that?
50:23
To me goes against the view because I'd, I think that it implies that Paul felt so I'm
50:30
going to jump off of that for a second.
50:32
I'm going to jump on the John piece that the John piece is is I feel like a weaker argument
50:42
in it because Jesus is talking to the apostles.
50:46
He's talking to his, his people that were chosen. Jesus also chose Judas to be a part
50:53
of that group who, who he then very clearly declares that it would be better for him not
50:58
to have been born. He also talks about praying for them and this, and this pleading for them,
51:08
this, this intercession and stuff. And so I mean, that is Jesus. I'm not saying we're
51:11
Jesus in all this, but I think sometimes that sometimes we can take what Jesus was saying
51:17
directly to the disciples. There's other verse that some other Calvinists, I'm not really
51:23
versed in, in the idea of like some, I believe some believe in the idea that miracles and
51:31
working through people is no longer a thing that that was, I forget what it's called.
51:35
Sessationists.
51:36
Yeah. Sessationists that that happened then to the disciples, but not to us. And so like
51:39
it's hard for me to say, okay, well, then the reason they say that is because there's
51:43
sometimes that Jesus is talking to the disciples and telling them they're going to have powers
51:47
to do stuff that does not convey down to us. So if we use that same mentality and we look
51:52
at this scripture and he says, I chose you, you do not choose me. Well, that is very true
51:57
to what he's saying to the disciples. He picked them out. He grabbed them. He, you know, he
52:03
brought them into this and out of the many disciples, like you said the other week, out
52:08
of the many disciples, he chose 12 to be a part of his crew. So like, I think that one's
52:13
a little iffy. What was the passage, John what? Yeah, 15, 16. Yeah. And I want to go back
52:19
to three, four here a little bit on Ephesians two, because if you read this since blessed
52:23
be the God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ again, we believe in the Trinity absolutely,
52:29
but Paul seems to very much be clear. He's clearly calling out God here, right? Blessed
52:34
be the God and father of, of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every
52:40
spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him. Okay. So he chose
52:46
us in Christ. Okay. So I'm still going to go back to, and I, when we talk about election
52:52
and being chosen, okay, remember what you have the idea, the Jews being the chosen people,
53:00
what were they chosen for? They were chosen for Christ. The line of Jesus extends back
53:06
through the Jewish ancestry. So we were chosen in Christ. We were chosen in him. This is not
53:14
us. We were chosen. We, it's not he's chosen us. We were chosen simply to be within, to
53:21
be a part of Christ. That's it.
53:23
I just struggle with Paul's like idea here, even in four, so in 13, he talks about that
53:28
he's excited to go to them so that he may reap a harvest, which you could say. Well,
53:33
he was just excited that he could be a part of it, but those people would have been chosen
53:36
in any ways, which I'm, I'm somewhat, I'm, I'm more okay with, but then here he says,
53:42
I am under obligation, both to Greek and to barbarians, both to the wise and the foolish.
53:48
So I'm eager to preach the gospel. So his obligation was that he felt obligated. This
53:55
word actually, I heard it said that it means an indebtedness that you could go into debt
54:00
by payment. So like I owe Kyle money. So I'm indebted to him or Kyle could give me money
54:08
to pay to you and then until I pay you that money until I pay it forward, I'm indebted
54:14
to you until I hand that off to you.
54:16
And so that idea, Paul seems very okay with talking about the provision that God had planned
54:23
for us and picked us and wanted us and that it's all on God's grace that we received that.
54:29
But he also seems very in tune to this idea. I have got work to do. I got to go tell people,
54:34
I got to get, I got to make sure they hear out of my voice. I'm obligated. I'm indebted
54:38
to them to get this gospel, this story. You know, the, the word gospel is it's so Christians
54:44
believe in an event. We don't just believe in an idea. So a lot of religions, I think
54:49
Terry was talking about this about a lot of religions are based on things that you can't
54:53
prove false, you know, because they're not about an event. What Christians believe is
54:57
an event. We believe in the event that Jesus Christ died on the cross and was raised from
55:02
the dead. He starts his letter by this. He says, he says that this gospel, that basically
55:08
Jesus was shown to be the son of God in the power according to the spirit of the holiness
55:13
by his resurrection from the dead. Like that is the event. And then these apostles have
55:19
this idea that they are the testimony givers of this event. I just find a disconnect between
55:26
this idea of the obligation of giving our testimony and the idea that, well, we should
55:33
just do it because it's an important part of our own habitual reliance on God.
55:40
This is, this is Kyle and I, both we have talked about this ag nauseam. That is my, that has
55:44
been my number one complaint and argument. And it's been at this forging table before.
55:51
Ryan Hornside here, Kyle was here. I was there. We had this exact same discussion. Then why
55:55
the gospel? Then why? And that is, that is one of the heart, one of the hardest parts,
55:59
I think. But Mark did say at church today, I can't remember. Maybe this was Spurgeon.
56:06
He was talking about, but he, he used the word mystery and he was talking about a pastor.
56:09
He was talking about the Puritan preachers Puritan preacher. And he said, a lot of times
56:14
when they're talking about this, they would literally just say the word mystery and step
56:18
back for a minute. And the point was, I love that. We don't, we, we don't, we don't, we
56:24
can talk about this. And it's been talked about for thousands of years. And it's going
56:28
to continue to be discussed. And that's something else I've really appreciated Mark saying is
56:32
that he didn't say it today, but almost every time he has ever preached on this, he almost
56:37
inevitably, every time says to be very clear that this is not an issue of salvation. And
56:43
there is not a, Armenians are saved and Calvinans are screwed or Calvinists are saved and Armenians
56:48
are not. That is not the case here. This is a doctrinal theology issue, but it does not
56:53
have, it does not matter to your salvation, whether or not you're in one camp or the other.
56:58
But we, we get in these camps and we fight so hard because we believe one is the true,
57:03
one is true versus the other. And Ryan and I have had plenty of these debates. And now
57:06
I'm kind of on the middle of the fence and I continue to find myself fight on both sides.
57:10
Right. But, but even Ryan, he texts, he texts us today right afterwards. And it was just
57:16
big where it's convicted. Because one of the things that Mark said today was look, if you
57:20
are a Calvinist and you are going around and you just love getting into desktops about
57:26
Calvinism and you just, you're so cock sure. Like I literally this guy on Twitter the other
57:30
day was talking about Calvinism is just like, uh, yeah, as soon as you read the Bible, like
57:34
I have, you'll come to the same conclusion. I was like, the cock sureness of Calvinist
57:38
should be studied in a lab somewhere, the level of confidence that these people have.
57:42
And he's like, basically, if you believe that way and you act that way as a Calvinist, you
57:46
don't understand the gospel because it brings you to your knees to realize that if you believe
57:50
we were chosen, you also have to believe that we did nothing to merit being chosen, which
57:56
brings you even lower. It's an, it's an odd dynamic to be honest with you, because you
58:01
can kind of go, you, you look at it. I mean, a lot of times whenever I see people getting
58:06
out over their skis on Calvinism, it sounds so prideful. It, it to me, it sounds so prideful
58:13
and so off-putting because I'm just going, they're just, meanwhile, they don't need room
58:18
for mystery.
58:19
You're, you're, you're so, you're, you're, you're in, you're very prideful in conveying
58:25
the message, which the message is about the humility of grace.
58:30
Correct. And that yet what are you exactly? Why should you be prideful? Why should you
58:36
be prideful in that whenever you literally you had no part in it?
58:40
Just, just to be clear, what you said earlier about that, uh, it's, it's this grace given
58:45
gift that we had nothing to do with Armenians do feel the same way. It is, I think Jake
58:51
put it well that we did nothing for it, did nothing for it, but that there is a reception
59:00
of that that is a very personal and internal, um, experience. And I think that's where you
59:07
can bring in the mystery part of it.
59:09
I don't know. I'm, I'm pretty sure that God does not live in a linear time system as well.
59:14
Right.
59:15
And so I'm pretty sure that he looks at this and he goes, yup, is both guys, y'all are
59:20
just dumb.
59:21
Yeah.
59:22
And y'all can't, y'all can't figure it out in there. And that's part of my mystery. I,
59:26
I made it for y'all not to be able to figure out. I enjoy the fact that you can peer into
59:32
this mysterious attribute of mine of being all knowing and all, all, uh, manifesting in,
59:40
in all these areas that I create and I do everything. And then this other mysterious
59:45
part of me that I brought you into that process to at least experience a reception of my grace.
59:53
You know, yeah, I think, um, I think people on both sides of the cow. Yeah, I, I've never
59:59
met like an Arden's, Arden's Armenianist, like I've never met that person. Maybe that
1:00:03
person, maybe there's a cage stage for that. But I would say like, I think if you are extreme
1:00:08
on either of the crossings that has a Wesleyan studies, he, he would be a good one to have
1:00:12
on here.
1:00:13
Well, I just think if they would accept the same posture that like I've accepted on the
1:00:17
young earth older thing, like my, cause I get people on both sides into mediums, demanding
1:00:24
this, demanding that, demanding that I believe this or that. My response is, yeah, I don't
1:00:27
really care that much. I have an opinion. I, I could express it to you. Uh, and you know,
1:00:33
explain my understanding of it. But if you presented me with a bunch of evidence to the
1:00:38
contrary or a different opinion or all that, I just don't care that much. Most of the time,
1:00:41
I don't even know what I am. I kind of had to like prep up like anytime that I started
1:00:46
getting in conversations, they're like, you're Wesleyan, you're, I mean, and I, I come from
1:00:50
a pastor dad and two pastor dads actually. And, uh, you know, my brother's a pastor and
1:00:56
step dad is a pastor. My real dad is a pastor now. And, uh, so I mean, it's just a, I still
1:01:03
don't understand. I have to look up what I am half the time. And I'm like, what team
1:01:06
do they play for? Okay. So is there an app that I can just put in all the little deals
1:01:09
and me like it tells you what you are? Which, which am I exactly? Is there anything more
1:01:13
human than, than us trying to assign ourselves into a team when there was never any intention
1:01:21
that we be anything other than one team? Yeah. And I think the, the overwhelming thing
1:01:26
is I think people like to find a team and they, they want to have a team color. They
1:01:31
want to have a team to root for all that. And so especially when you start studying theology,
1:01:35
it's like, well, are you pre mill or post mill or all are you one of those odd mill weirdos
1:01:39
or are you, uh, like a five point tulip or like I think Mark says he's a four or four
1:01:44
and a half. Uh, you know,
1:01:45
issue with limited entertainment. Right. And then, and then people like they'll go like
1:01:50
crazy deep on one of the parts of tulip. It's typically limited atonement. And one group's
1:01:55
like, man, it just says what it says. It is what it is. I, it's right there in the text.
1:01:59
And then another group will read the same text and come to a different conclusion. And
1:02:04
here's the reality is it's not an opinion. One of them is right. Right. And one of them
1:02:08
is wrong, but we can't really know. And I think part of the problem is people are like,
1:02:13
well, we can know for sure this, that and the other thing. So like we can't know for
1:02:17
sure how Noah did everything as it pertain to building the boat and the flood and all
1:02:21
the different things because we don't have a complete accounting of what the guy did
1:02:24
over. What did it take him? Ten years to build the boat or something like that. We don't
1:02:27
have a complete accounting of what was going on at that time. And so you can surmise,
1:02:32
you can think through it, but you can't prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt. Hopefully that's
1:02:37
in one of the amphitheaters in heaven where you can just go and you can just DVR. All right,
1:02:41
Noah's arc. Let's go to there and let's like look at the highlights. You know what I mean?
1:02:45
But we don't really treat it that way. There are two, two things that I would just wrap
1:02:48
this up. And in my head that I'm struggling with is one, when I see Calvinism, I sort
1:02:55
of see, I am feeling it's edifying God and God's choice and God's power. And I feel like
1:03:02
Armenianism, it's about me. It's about me making the choice. And I'm starting to fight
1:03:07
that battle. Like, well, which, which, which side should I rise higher? Am I going to say
1:03:13
that my decisions and the things that I do are more important or what God, you know,
1:03:17
God's power is more important. And then the other thing that I'm struggling with on there
1:03:21
Armenian side of things is it feels is starting to feel more squishy to me and more dangerous
1:03:27
and more milk toast. Like we've got a ton of that in this country. We've got a ton of
1:03:31
churches that just come in. They're not really preaching the gospel. They're not really
1:03:35
giving feeding people the way that they should. And that feels more like, that's just not
1:03:40
the way it's supposed to be. And so that's where what I'm struggling with trying to navigate
1:03:45
those two things. It's where my head is right now is figuring out which direction on those
1:03:51
two make more sense to me. Yeah. Read the words. The words say what they say.
1:03:56
As with every conversation or sermon or debate that everyone hears on Calvinism or Armenian
1:04:01
ism, we've absolutely solved it in the time that it's taking you to listen to this. So
1:04:05
everybody is perfectly clear now, right, on which is the right the correct side. Everyone's
1:04:09
heard that. No. Okay. We're back exactly where we started, but we got to leave it somewhere.
1:04:13
So we're going to have to leave it there guys. We got through Romans one 15, but we've been
1:04:17
chomping at the bit, the guys at this table ticket to Romans one 16. So we're going to
1:04:22
get to that on next week's episode. So make sure you come back and you're ready to go
1:04:25
for that. But before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost and a
1:04:28
undaunted life or mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that for just
1:04:31
spiritual mental and physical resilience. I've already mentioned the cross way. Forging
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table starter said, I've already mentioned logos, but let me remind you, we are a donation
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1:04:43
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1:04:47
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just believe in the mission of equipping men to push back darkness. So if you've not done
1:05:00
so, check out the link in the show notes or just go to undaunted.life/donate. Thank you
1:05:05
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1:05:19
Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else,
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and as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for
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debut album on Face Down Records. The links are in the description. I'm your host Kyle
1:05:39
Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental and physical
1:05:46
resilience. Keep seeking the Lion of Judah.
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