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This is Undaunted Life Man's Podcast.
0:53
I'm your host Kyle Thompson.
0:55
Let's get into it.
0:57
Welcome back to The Forging Table.
0:58
The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with content that
1:01
forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience.
1:04
At The Forging Table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience
1:07
by digging into God's Word, and we're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with
1:10
us.
1:11
We got the OG Magrassmeyer in the house.
1:12
We got Jake Winkler, the biggest Forging Table in the house, but who is this guy?
1:16
We got a new guy at the table, so welcome Russell uses to The Forging Table.
1:20
Thanks for having me.
1:21
Are you excited?
1:22
I'm so excited.
1:23
You look excited.
1:24
Maybe a little nervous?
1:25
Well, yeah.
1:26
I'm so nervous.
1:27
Can I give you a theory?
1:28
No for it.
1:29
Because you can feel the angst at the table, because not only is Matt the OG at the table,
1:35
but he has had the title of the guy at The Forging Table that has known me the longest
1:41
until this exact moment.
1:43
Because you and I have known each other one week longer than Matt, because you and I met
1:49
at the President's Leadership Council retreat in Oklahoma in that would have been August
1:53
of 2014, before school started, but it would have been the first week of September that
1:58
I met Matt.
1:59
And so Matt, I just wanted to let you know.
2:01
This is your last time on The Forging Table.
2:03
So if you can please leave the premises, you have been replaced.
2:05
You can't.
2:06
No, you can stay.
2:07
You can stay.
2:08
You can't sense the seven day connection.
2:09
Yeah.
2:10
I mean, it's just a little bit.
2:11
It was a jam-packed seven days.
2:12
Yes.
2:13
It was.
2:14
Like, I mean, it's the level.
2:15
That's a good time.
2:16
Sorry about it.
2:17
Hey, and you were there the first day I met my wife, too.
2:20
Right.
2:21
We had like a late night thing at the retreat, and it was like you, me, her, and two other
2:25
people.
2:26
And we stayed up literally until like two or three in the morning just acting a fool.
2:29
And you want to talk about a guy that knew what he wanted.
2:31
This guy.
2:32
Hey, I mean, like, it was like introduction time, introduction time, and then you saw.
2:37
Yeah.
2:38
Kyle seemed decisive on things.
2:39
I just, I'm shocked.
2:40
Yeah, I don't, I don't like making calls and just making moves.
2:43
But Matt, how are you doing?
2:44
How are you feeling at this exact moment?
2:46
You know, I didn't know how I'd feel until this exact moment.
2:50
Um, but yeah, I'm, I got to say I'm good, um, because I'm excited to have Russell here.
2:55
So, so the cool thing about this is these three are in a Bible study anyway.
3:00
And so y'all kind of do a little forging table thing on your own.
3:03
I'm like, what is it?
3:04
On Wednesday?
3:05
Wednesday mornings.
3:06
Okay.
3:07
It's a crossings takeover right now.
3:08
Yeah, this is a problem.
3:09
So typically we have all people from my church and a couple of smatterings of crossings.
3:12
But we'll, we'll try to do our, do our best here.
3:15
One thing I do want to say is Russell, this is one thing that I did not like, uh, warn
3:21
you about before you came to the forging table.
3:22
Right.
3:23
And it's that typically when we come to the forging table, there's almost all way, it
3:29
almost always devolves into a debate and the debate centers on one topic.
3:34
Okay.
3:35
Now, what everyone thinks I'm going to say is the topic is Calvinism, right?
3:40
And whether or not it's legit, but that's not the debate.
3:43
Okay.
3:44
That's the debate that has defined this show because we had a guy come on here and he during,
3:50
you know, the summers or during the winters, he would work out a ham factory and glaze
3:54
ham.
3:55
So shout out to Degan Boyd, the ham glazer.
3:57
And so he was like talking trash about ham and I have been known to quote, to give this
4:02
quote on multiple occasions that ham is life.
4:05
That's how much I love ham.
4:07
But before coming here today, you were like, Hey, if I go turkey hunting this morning and
4:10
kill turkey, can I throw it in your freezer?
4:12
And so I feel like you're, you should be in on this debate of turkey versus ham because
4:17
you're a hunter, but also it seems like you eat meat.
4:19
So, so where do you land on the turkey ham debate?
4:22
I land on hunting turkey eating ham, hunting turkey eating ham.
4:27
I'd much rather go hunt some turkeys, call them in, do all that, then just go try to
4:31
night stock some pigs or anything like that.
4:34
But when it comes to eating, you can't get better than a ham.
4:38
I mean, thanksgiving Christmas.
4:40
Team Ham.
4:41
Team Ham has grown.
4:43
Okay.
4:44
So, but is everybody team ham here?
4:45
Everybody's team ham.
4:46
I mean, I'm one of those who would say you could put your hands together and I'd be
4:49
okay with that too.
4:50
Who are the anti-hammers?
4:51
So the anti-hammers are, are Dagen, Adam is, is horn, hammer turkey.
4:56
I feel like horns a ham guy.
4:57
Oh, he's full on ham.
4:58
Yeah.
4:59
Okay.
5:00
Ham guy.
5:01
Okay.
5:02
So, so we got another guy now.
5:03
He's cage steak.
5:04
Now he's a stage ham.
5:05
Okay.
5:06
I'm, I'm down with that.
5:07
Are you saying that you don't like eating wild turkey?
5:08
Like that's not your thing.
5:09
We'll actually have a little cookout this Sunday.
5:12
And I plan to do burgers, hot dogs, and add a little turkey in there.
5:16
So we'll see.
5:17
Okay.
5:18
But you know what I put on my turkey?
5:19
What's that?
5:20
This new recipe.
5:21
I wrap it with some ham.
5:22
With some bacon.
5:23
So, I mean, the most godly thing I think we've heard so far today.
5:29
Well, before before we launch and we do, we do need to get into proverbs too.
5:32
When someone has their first appearance on the forging table, we like to kind of give
5:35
the audience an idea like, Hey, in two minutes or less, we need you to answer these three
5:39
questions.
5:40
Okay.
5:41
So I always try to forget.
5:42
I don't try to forget.
5:43
I try to remember.
5:44
So the first question is, how did you become a Christian?
5:45
Second question is, how do you like to read the Bible?
5:48
How do you like to study the Bible and the third is, how does your brain work?
5:52
And so in two minutes, just kind of hit those three questions to kind of give us an idea
5:55
of who we're talking to.
5:56
I'll go opposite order.
5:57
My brain works like a sponge, but it doesn't discriminate really on what it's sometimes
6:02
I take too much of just whatever is out there.
6:05
And then I have an overload where I kind of get that my wife feels like I get that little
6:09
ring that goes around on the computer that's like, well, I've filled up right now and I'm
6:13
thinking through these things and so I can't I can't absorb anything else at that point.
6:17
Yeah, buffering, buffering.
6:20
What was the second one?
6:21
The second one?
6:22
How does your how do you like to study the Bible?
6:24
How I like to study the Bible is usually early in the morning.
6:28
I like to bounce back and forth.
6:31
I like to read one scripture and then I just have a tendency to just find relations and
6:36
other things.
6:37
I like to have usually my brother on speed dial, he's he's somebody I lean on.
6:41
So whenever I find something really, really cool, really neat, I usually call him.
6:46
That's a good way.
6:47
And then the way I became Christian was real quick, what translations do you like to to
6:52
read?
6:53
So I have an IV and then the one that I probably do the most studying in is my ESV study by
6:59
though.
7:00
I think we're all ESVers here.
7:01
Okay.
7:02
So that'll work.
7:03
I'd like to just see what they know.
7:04
So how I became a Christian was I grew up in the church.
7:09
Whenever I was in Little Rock Arkansas in our church, they did a play where I saw a depiction
7:13
of Christ suffering on the cross.
7:17
Even though a little kid, it hit me and from that moment on, I really I really didn't know
7:21
what what he had been through.
7:24
And from that point on, I decided that I wanted to ask him to be my savior and my Lord grew
7:29
up in the church.
7:31
And then really had a falling, falling away from my faith and my later college years.
7:37
Really struggling through some stuff.
7:39
And then I came back to faith basically had a had a pastor kind of challenged me to doubt
7:44
my doubts to put them under the same scrutiny and really got into the word and heard some
7:49
truth and started visiting some of the historical facts of the word.
7:55
And it was like a cloud was lifted like I had fogged my mind for so long.
8:00
And then all of a sudden, once that was lifted, I just couldn't couldn't get enough of trying
8:04
to re absorb some of those truths that I had learned early on.
8:09
So that was that was a big changing point for me, my family.
8:12
Okay.
8:13
Thank you.
8:14
I appreciate you sharing that.
8:15
Before we actually get into Proverbs two, I want to kind of key in on something that
8:17
you said where you were challenged to doubt your doubts.
8:19
And I'm assuming that process, it certainly turkey took you to the word that it also take
8:23
you to the world of like apologetics and like argumentation for faith and those types of
8:28
things.
8:29
Like so like many people that grew up in the church, I went into college and I had been
8:34
so much in the word.
8:36
My father come from a long line of pastors and things like that.
8:41
And so I just been in the word all my life and I felt like I understood or knew what it
8:45
said.
8:46
And so I kind of put the word down for a while and just started reading philosophy stuff, had
8:51
a couple of friends that were in philosophy, started taking those arguments in and really
8:55
trying to at first absorb those so I could counterbalance them, but then I was just absorbing
9:00
only that and I found myself to where I didn't read the word anymore.
9:04
And so I kind of whenever I rediscovered my faith, I kind of just did the opposite of
9:09
that.
9:10
I allowed for the first time in a long time for me to go and combat some of those arguments
9:14
with the word and found it to be true.
9:18
So I don't know how it is for Jake and Matt, but I will say again, I go back to why do
9:23
we even do a forging table?
9:25
Because I remember sitting around talking with some of the OG guys.
9:28
I think it was you and Ryan and it was probably Browning and Todd were there as well.
9:32
But in 2022, I read 53 books, 54 books for interviews for the podcast, but I didn't read
9:41
54 chapters of the Bible like it just, you know, just didn't happen.
9:46
And I was like, wait a minute.
9:48
But in that year, when I wasn't really reading the Bible, you know what I did, I listened
9:51
to a lot of podcasts absorbing a lot of apologetics.
9:54
I watched Jeff Durbin go up to Jehovah's Witnesses and, you know, go crazy.
9:57
I listened to Robbie Zacharise, he who will not be named.
10:00
And I listened to Frank Turic and all these different people.
10:03
And I absorbed a lot of arguments, but I didn't really absorb the word.
10:07
And you know, all that kind of wrapped into I need to do something selfishly that'll cause
10:13
me like as part of my weekly to do list to get back to the word.
10:16
And so I like, I don't know what it is with you guys in terms of like how much word versus
10:20
how much apologetics or really if you're even into that, because I know a lot of Christians
10:23
are like, no, we don't need apologetics.
10:24
We just need the word.
10:26
I'm probably about 50/50 at this point.
10:30
I think between doing the forging table and the Bible study we do every Wednesday morning,
10:37
I spend a lot of time on the word.
10:39
You can't help but I mean, my worst fear is to go into the Bible study or to come on this
10:45
show and sound like I don't know what I'm talking about.
10:49
So I will spend a lot of time in the word, but I will also spend a lot of time on apologetics.
10:55
I mean, we have a book club, actually Russ and I not a book club.
11:00
Not a book club.
11:01
I'm sorry.
11:02
It's the not a book club.
11:03
Sounds like it's a book club.
11:04
It's a not a book club.
11:05
It's it's a book club.
11:06
It is a book club.
11:07
I mean, it's a book club, but it's not like we don't discuss feelings or emotions in our
11:11
book club.
11:13
But we read a book a month, different ones.
11:17
And then I know Matt and I typically are sharing, hey, you should read this or, you know, so
11:21
we just both I just finished.
11:23
I think he finished it for probably the second or third time crucifixion of the King of glory.
11:27
Amazing.
11:28
Genia.
11:29
Constantino.
11:30
Shout out of shout out.
11:31
Amazing book.
11:32
If you haven't read it, but it is something where yeah, you have to I mean, it's a deep
11:36
dive in the word, but it's also a deep dive into books about the word.
11:40
Right.
11:41
I would say I'll probably 50/50 as well because like, you know, over the last few years, you
11:45
know, just, we've gone through some, some pretty tough things and trying to lean into
11:49
the words.
11:50
Some of the things in there are pretty difficult.
11:52
And so leaning on some apologetics based works has been really helpful for me.
11:58
Like I'm a huge fan of RC Sproul and everyone's a theologian and the holiness of God and chosen
12:02
by God were three books that really helped me grapple with some of the concepts that at
12:09
the time were really difficult for me to understand.
12:11
So I think I think there has to be a balance on it. I think you should, I mean, the word
12:15
is a sword and it can cut to the heart of a lot of arguments and a lot of arguments
12:20
that you hear against the word can be cut down.
12:23
I mean, and, you know, in an axe, it talks about Peter, you know, preaching and people
12:30
being cut to the heart because he was preaching truth.
12:32
So I think you've got a default to the word, but I think having some apologetics based books
12:40
and things like that to help you help people, help you understand things that have been
12:44
written by people who are way smarter than me has been really, really crucial for, for
12:48
my growth.
12:49
Well, and I remember even when you see Peter preaching in acts, he wasn't immediately
12:55
going to the Old Testament scriptures or anything like that. Like he was using Greek philosophy
12:59
to basically kind of get their attention. But I will say, I, I knew you would, you would
13:03
do fine. I wasn't really nervous about that at all. But there was a text that you sent
13:06
to this little group this morning that I was like, all right, he already gets it. And it
13:10
was this, I'm pumped and thankful this is, this has given me good time in the scriptures.
13:15
And so again, that's that goes back to the whole reason why we started this because it
13:18
was a very selfish pursuit. And I remember like, Matt, you'll remember this sitting around
13:21
with, with you and the rest of the OG crew, I didn't know if this was going to be a thing.
13:25
I didn't know if this was going to work. I didn't know if this was a good idea. But
13:29
before we even recorded the first one, which I think was a Galatians one, before we record
13:33
the first one, I sent a message to everybody. I was like, no, we're, we're just doing this
13:36
now. Like I don't even care if nobody listens. This is going to be part of the feed forever.
13:42
This will last longer than my quick hitters longer than my interviews. This is how it's
13:45
going to be. And what's interesting about that is, you know, I was just at the actually
13:49
nine conference not that long ago, and I got stopped by a lot of people. I got stopped
13:53
by a dude from South Africa. That's just like, dude, I love what you do. And it's fulfilling.
13:57
But you want to know the biggest thing that I get complimented on is the forging table.
14:01
That's incredible. And that. But the thing is, is like the forging table is not me. The
14:04
forging table is us, but it's also them. Because these are guys that are like, dude, I didn't
14:09
know what a Bible study was supposed to look like until I started like watching and listening
14:13
to the forging table. And to me, I'm like, I don't even know how to respond to that. But
14:17
they're just like, they're thinking it has to be a particular thing. And you know, we're
14:20
here having a good time. We're cutting up. But also we are digging into the word, word,
14:23
like, this is kind of like how a foxhole is supposed to operate when we get around a table.
14:27
So I feel like we're, you know, striking the chord we need to. Yeah. I think you hit
14:32
some hit on something there, Kyle. I think my biggest hesitancy in going in and actually
14:37
doing a Bible study was I literally have no idea what's about to happen. Right. And I
14:42
remember the first time I went to a Bible study. I was, it was four guys. I did not know them
14:49
from Adam. And it was like a lot of vulnerability and a lot of sharing. And I'm like, I don't
14:55
know you like that. Right. I don't feel comfortable sharing in that way. And honestly, it wasn't
15:01
until Russ, you know, they started this fishing trip. It wasn't until I went on that fishing
15:06
trip and started actually doing things with other men who are also going to be studying
15:11
the Bible. It wasn't until I started feeling, you know, that camaraderie that I was comfortable
15:17
to actually go into a Bible study and start sharing. You're literally elucidating the
15:21
point that I've made a hundred times. Go ahead. I think that's a great point to piggyback
15:25
off what you said. Me and Jake, we've probably known each other for maybe a little bit more
15:28
than a year. Yeah. Really. And it wasn't until the fishing trip. And we actually by happenstance
15:34
got paired together with a guide last year. And we fished together high five together.
15:40
We're catching fish when we caught some really good fish and shout out to Russ for being a
15:44
part of the group that started that. That's a huge thing. But then as soon as we're done
15:50
with the fishing trip, we just had a blast together. We just we just stood shoulder to
15:53
shoulder together. Like we got in some really good conversations. And I think fast friends
15:59
is kind of a cliche, but that probably is the best way to describe it. Like I would say
16:03
you're one of my closest friends now. And a big part of that is because of that fishing
16:07
trip that we were able to stand shoulder to shoulder and do guy stuff together. And that
16:11
breeded a more or a more solid friendship. Matt knows things about me that honestly, only my life knows.
16:19
I mean, that's that's how deep our friendship has gone in literally 12 months. And again,
16:26
which is awesome. But you can't you can't diminish. I'm the only one that hasn't gotten a fist bump
16:31
at the table today. So I haven't said anything. No, no, I haven't said anything word of the other
16:34
rust. I'm saying anything word. So yeah, you keep it'll come. Messing around. No, whatever.
16:38
For everybody out on YouTube and they're like, why don't they like Kyle? But here's the thing,
16:41
like the shoulder to shoulder thing makes a ton of sense. But when people are running
16:47
immense ministries, they they either don't know that or they forget it. And so I remember I went
16:51
and spoke. It was one of the first times I got a speaking engagement front on in life. And I went
16:55
to this room full, you know, full of guys. And I go and speak and my styles burn it down and walk
17:00
away. And as soon as I was done, they're like, yeah, I'll just go just go join that that discussion
17:05
group. I can look at that guy and I'm like, you mean all those guys? I don't know. What's what's
17:10
my role when I go over there? The guy that just spoke? Am I supposed to just like start pouring my
17:14
heart out to these dudes that I don't even know if I can trust them? I don't know if these guys have
17:17
ever done anything hard. I can guess by looking at some of their bodies, but like, I don't know,
17:21
like if these guys have ever done anything difficult. All right. But that's the thing is most that's
17:25
what men's ministry is. And that's why I say men's ministry. Most men's ministries are just
17:29
women's ministries repackaged for men. Because that is women's ministry, where you show up
17:35
and then there's a gaggle of strangers. And you just toss this gal into this gaggle of strangers.
17:40
And then by the end of it, they're all crying. And they're always gonna anyway, I was gonna make
17:43
a joke that wasn't gonna be funny for everybody. But like, that's what they do. They all gather and
17:48
they start getting on the same wavelength. And it's just the, but that's how women connect. They
17:52
connect initially eyeball to eyeball. Whereas men don't typically do that. It's shoulder to shoulder.
17:58
Can I trust you? Do I know you're willing to do things that are difficult? And that's how you can
18:03
become fast friends. And like, that's one of the reasons why I advocate jujitsu. And like, you know,
18:08
Matt Chandler and I spent a lot of time talking about jujitsu. Because here's a guy in his late
18:11
40s that started doing, you know, murder yoga. And it's just kind of like, that's not a, that's not
18:16
what you typically pick up in your late 40s. Maybe you're gonna do some fat guy hunting. Maybe you're
18:20
gonna do some, some like, I don't know, golf or whatever, lame, what's the things that people do?
18:25
That sounds awesome, by the way. Fat guy hunting, fat guy hunting is where you get
18:29
the other, no, no, there was an option. Hey, fat guy hunting is where you like getting a canam.
18:34
And you're not even driving. You literally sitting a canam and someone's canam, someone drives you
18:38
to your blind. And then eventually an animal comes out. And then there's a crew of people that come
18:42
and clean it for you and pick it up. Whereas like the rest of hunting is where you have to do a
18:46
little bit of work and you might sweat a little bit. But like, but like, don't even project. That's
18:50
an option. That's not an option for you. We're not taking walking. We got this. We got this work.
18:55
He's gonna be hunting. He's gonna, you're, if it's brown, it's down for you this year. We're
18:58
gonna make that happen. But like, that's one of the things with with all of this is men
19:04
intuitively understand that they don't trust another man until they've accomplished something
19:09
with that man. And that's why whenever I talk about foxholes and talk about being able to trust
19:13
people, that's why I don't encourage churches to start men's ministries. I encourage them to have
19:17
man-friendly churches. Because if your church is man-friendly, a lot of that stuff will just
19:21
happen on its own. You're not going to have to get your men to volunteer. Your men will want to
19:24
volunteer. Your men will come to you. There will be a tornado in Joplin, Missouri. And it'll, you
19:29
know, knock out. I mean, that was a big tornado. What, you know, seven, eight, nine years ago or
19:32
something like that? Well, guess what? I saw a bunch of dudes from churches with chainsaws, right?
19:37
And the church didn't send out an email. They didn't like do a group, you know, thread or they
19:43
didn't get a discord thing going. Like a bunch of dudes with chainsaws said, there's a bunch of
19:47
trees down and we're going to go help people right now. And we're going to talk about Jesus
19:51
while we do it. And so we've, we've kind of wax poetic a lot here at the beginning, but I think
19:55
that that is that's beneficial. And it'll really go into a lot of the discussion of this wisdom
19:59
literature today. So Jake, if you would lead us off, we're in Proverbs two today, guys. So most
20:04
of us, I think our all of us will be reading from ESV. If you have that version, switch over to that.
20:08
But Proverbs two, read one through six. My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments
20:14
with you, making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining to your heart to understanding.
20:20
Yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, if you seek it like silver
20:25
and search for it as for hidden treasures, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find
20:31
the knowledge of God. For the Lord gives wisdom from his mouth, come knowledge and understanding.
20:37
So I don't know about for you guys, but it wasn't until maybe about a year ago,
20:42
when I heard someone say like, look, wisdom is a gift, like you don't get wisdom, you get intellect.
20:47
So you can study a book and you can learn more about that book. Now some people have more intellectual
20:52
capacity. Some people have a naturally higher IQ. I know we're not allowed to talk about that either,
20:56
but there are limitations to people's ability to learn, right? So and there's limitations to
21:01
categorically what we're able to learn. Like I can dig into a theology book or a book on, you know,
21:06
some subject that I'm interested in, and then I can get a physics textbook or, you know,
21:10
something to deal with, you know, like astrology. And I'm like, I'm lost halfway through page one.
21:15
But I want to talk a little bit more about that whole wisdom idea because to a degree, it's like,
21:19
okay, if wisdom's a gift, then that means some people have it and some people just flat out don't.
21:26
And it doesn't mean you can't listen to everybody or take something or glean something from someone
21:30
else's intellect. But when it comes to wisdom, which is essentially discernment, right? That's
21:36
apparently just a gift. And that just doesn't go to everybody, which is just an interesting concept
21:40
that I've been not really wrestling with, but just chewing on for the last year or so.
21:43
Yeah, I would say, to your point, the idea of discernment here, when we did our Bible study on
21:51
Proverbs this last year, you know, we talked about the idea of nuance and the how many people really
22:00
want to find this middle way or, you know, operate in this gray area. And, you know, I've been wrestling
22:08
a lot with that, you know, God doesn't grade on a curve. You know, it's pretty black and white with
22:13
God, which is why you need a savior. But Matt, I think actually had a great comment that nuances
22:21
the new Jordans. Everybody wants a pair. Everybody wants a pair. They're the new, it's the new Jordans.
22:27
Sometimes things aren't nuanced. Sometimes things truly are black and white. And generally,
22:33
when you're talking about obedience to God, it's black and white. It's a yes or no, it's pass/fail.
22:41
I think it's a good point. I'll take it a little. I take this. So whenever I was looking at this,
22:49
I actually went the other way with it to where, to me, this is showing that wisdom is a lot of
22:55
hard work, too. I mean, like the fact that it says, "For the Lord gives wisdom from his
22:59
mouth, come knowledge and understanding." But then there's other scripture that says, you know,
23:03
wisdom cries out in the street and says, "Who will come in?" And things like that. So this has an idea
23:10
to me that it says, "It's out there, but it's up to you to treasure it up. It's up to you to make
23:16
your ear attentive to the wisdom, to incline your heart to the understanding." Like there is something
23:21
that has to turn on for you to see the wisdom, the truth that is out there that God is giving to us.
23:28
I think it's kind of like justification and sanctification, like we are justified,
23:32
but then sanctification is a lifelong process and it's a pursuit. And when it says in verse 4,
23:40
"Seek it like silver and search for it as for a hidden treasure," like you don't seek for silver.
23:45
Don't skip ahead. Don't skip ahead.
23:46
I'm kidding. I'm kidding. We're on that. Go for it.
23:50
You don't seek silver or a hidden treasure like you're looking for a cotton ball, like you seek that
23:58
out with a fervent intent to find it. That's not something you just casually look for,
24:04
or it shouldn't be because you're not going to find it. If you just are casually looking for it,
24:09
you're not going to find it. I'm actually really glad all three of you gave the exact
24:13
commentary that you gave because that allowed me to realize that I gave a really crappy setup
24:17
to this entire section because for what you said, "Pursuit." Yeah. So, "Pursuit" is the exact
24:23
word. So, yes, wisdom is a gift, but it's a gift that you do have to seek out. I guess a way you
24:29
could think about it. Maybe all of us have grown up with people that were just naturally good
24:34
athletes. Well, let's just use speed. They were naturally fast. They didn't have to do wind sprints.
24:39
They didn't have to lift. They didn't have to stretch out. They were just fast. Out of the womb,
24:44
they were fast. That was a gift that they were given, but they have to seek out ways that that
24:50
speed can be used, right? Because speed on a soccer pitch versus speed on a wrestling mat or
24:57
speed on a baseball field, these are different kinds of speed. They can't all be used the same way.
25:00
Like, you know, I remember when Usain Bolt suited up for some like semi-pro soccer team or something
25:06
like that, and people were like, "Oh my gosh, he's going to score a billion goals." It's like,
25:10
okay, how much of soccer is 100 meter dash sprint towards the ball? Like, that's not a whole lot
25:18
about soccer. Right. Now, if there is a breakaway and it's your sweeper versus Usain Bolt,
25:25
sorry, Usain Bolt's probably going to get a shot off. He's going to get to the ball,
25:28
but I mean, there's ball handling. There's all these different things. And like, that's one thing
25:31
I always noticed about Messi is he seemed faster with the ball on his foot than when he didn't have
25:36
the ball. Like, he's kind of an if you watch him run, it's kind of awkward. But when he has the
25:40
ball on his foot, it's just a different game. And so it's like, I guess that's a better way to
25:45
think about it, to where it's like, you are given wisdom as a gift, but you still have to pursue it.
25:49
Almost like, you may have been given a woman, a wife as a gift, but you still have to pursue her.
25:53
You don't just get her. You know what I mean? Right. Two point. Well, let's go to seven through
25:58
15. So Russell, this is your first time that you will be reading out loud on the forging table.
26:02
Okay, so we do have a rank ordering of people that read out loud most effectively. And so,
26:07
we're going to be ranking you immediately. So seven through 15 feel the pressure.
26:12
All right, there we go. He sorts up sound wisdom for the upright. He is a shield to those who
26:17
walk in integrity, guarding the paths of justice and watching over the way of his saints. Then you
26:23
will understand righteousness and justice and equity every good path for wisdom will come into
26:27
your heart and knowledge will be pleasant to your soul. Discretion will watch over you,
26:32
understanding will guard you, delivering you from the way of evil. For men of perverted speech
26:37
who forsake the path of uprightness to walk in the ways of darkness, who rejoice in doing
26:42
evil and delight in the perverseness of evil, men whose paths are crooked and who are devious
26:48
in their ways. Yeah, that was excellent. I'm inspired. That was great. I'm inspired. I can't
26:54
believe the nerves of just reading that first light. Well, I did everything I could to increase
27:00
the nerves. And so that didn't include that kind of like settled me down. But what is that? That's
27:04
just so weird. I want to you don't want to mess up and have to say sorry, Joby. So you don't. Yeah,
27:09
so did you. Are you familiar with the sorry, Joby thing? Okay. Yeah. So like if you mess up,
27:13
like it's it's a requirement. We need to have like a sorry, Joby jar and then you know, like
27:16
donated to people at the end. But you guys go ahead and flow on that because this is kind of a
27:20
further into what we saw in one through six. But yeah, flow on what you like about that.
27:23
Well, I think this kind of speaks towards like believers versus non believers. So like
27:29
believers as we are being sanctified and we are pursuing wisdom and we are pursuing the things of
27:33
God like we as the upright and again, we're not upright by our own, you know, works. But we are
27:41
granted those things as we pursue them. And they can be used as a shield. But I think this kind of
27:47
speaks to those who pursue that are going to be granted. And those are those are going to be
27:51
stored up for those people who would pursue out wisdom like silver and hidden treasures.
27:58
Yeah, one of the things that there's some other translations that we'll actually talk about in
28:03
verse seven, they'll talk about it being sound wisdom. We say we see sound wisdom, but they will
28:09
actually talk a success or victory. And in that, there's a salvation message there. If you start
28:18
talking about a victory, he stores up victory for the upright. So even then I think when you talk of
28:28
pers, you know, if if you are out there pursuing wisdom, it does not come without pursuit of God,
28:35
period into story. I know a very a lot of very, very smart people that aren't godly people.
28:43
And what they do is, you know, they are constantly in pursuit of, I want to know this,
28:50
or I want knowledge of this. And it's like, okay, will they gain insight and a skill?
28:58
But if you were going to say, well, but do they have is there true wisdom there? I don't think
29:04
there is. It's I've learned how to accomplish something where I've learned a interesting fact.
29:10
It's not wisdom. Wisdom only comes from, I actually think that if I listen to what this advice is,
29:18
that my life will be unmarketedly better. I will be more at peace. And then you start going into
29:26
the fruits of the spirit. It's that is what you gain by listening to wisdom and applying it to
29:32
your life. When I think that go, go ahead. The apostles wanted to make it clear and on who Jesus
29:38
was. And one of the things that they said about, I think there's a couple of things in Luke, and
29:42
then Paul says some things about Jesus being the wisdom of God. And so to your point, if we're
29:47
pursuing wisdom, you can't really separate that from God. And so in our pursuit to follow Christ,
29:55
or as Paul says it, follow me as I follow Christ, like there is an inherent wisdom that's going to
30:02
come with that. So if we are, if we are fervently seeking Christ, we are going to gain some wisdom
30:10
in that. And then so my point is those yes, I agree, those things definitely go hand in hand
30:16
as believers. I think in verse 12, so delivering you from the way of evil from the men of
30:25
perverted speech. So you get wisdom, you get the opportunity to pursue it further, love the pursuit
30:32
word, but then also there are downstream benefits of just having that. And so we've all kind of
30:39
talked about, so Jake, you kind of brought up the thing that the people that are intellectual,
30:42
the people that are smart, but they don't have any wisdom. And I think we all know people like that,
30:45
people that are really smart, but they're just morons, right? Like they just they have no common
30:49
sense, like that they have no moral sense. Right. And so they're really smart when it comes to,
30:54
you know, spreadsheets or, you know, formulas or whatever, that type of thing. But then they have
30:59
no moral sense. They have no moral compass. And it's because they pursued intellect, which attaches,
31:04
it doesn't it doesn't attach to anything in the way that wisdom attaches to God. Right. So where does
31:09
wisdom come from? How do we have these things from revelation from God? But I think that having
31:13
the downstream benefits of, for instance, if there is a a preacher that is preaching something
31:20
that's a biblical, let's just use an example. I don't know, Andy Stanley. So let's just say Andy
31:23
Stanley's talking and the things that, yeah, I can, I can give you a rundown later. Don't really
31:28
have the time right now. But let's just say you were say something ridiculous, like we should
31:32
unhitch the Old Testament from the New Testament. And like, let's just say, let's just spin this,
31:36
this, this is hypothetical situation right here. If you have wisdom, you can hear that and go,
31:43
whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. What? What? Slow down. I go all the way back and I'm not using
31:48
this as an example, just to take a pot shot at Craig Rochelle and live church. But I remember being
31:52
under Craig Rochelle's leadership at live church for 11 or 12 years. And I remember one day, I don't
31:57
know if I was just more tuned on that day or something like that, but he described a biblical
32:01
story and I'm like, whoa, whoa, that's, that's not the point of that story. And this was when I was
32:06
essentially biblically illiterate, but I was literate enough to be like, that is not the
32:11
point of that story. I know it works with your three step plan to how to be a better whatever,
32:15
whatever today, but that's not what that means. But if you have intellect and not wisdom,
32:21
you may not catch that, right? I mean, you need the wisdom to be like, hold on, because again,
32:26
that wisdom does lead to discernment. You said something about wisdom being revelation of God,
32:32
I just want to read something. So in 10, it says, for wisdom will come into your heart and knowledge
32:37
will be pleasant to your soul. Discretion will watch over you and understanding will guard you.
32:42
And there's a verse in John, I'm sorry. What was that? That was Proverbs 10. That was
32:47
Proverbs two, two, two, two, yeah. And then if you look at John 14, 15 through 16. So this is where
32:53
Jesus is speaking to the disciples and he says, I'm going to try to do this. It says, if you love
32:58
me, you will keep my commandments and I will ask the Father and he will give you another helper.
33:03
He will be with you forever. Even the spirit of truth in the world cannot receive because it
33:08
neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be with you.
33:14
Like for us on the, on this side of the cross, like there is wisdom, this type of wisdom,
33:21
but there's also the understanding that there's wisdom from God through the Holy Spirit too,
33:26
you know, and this is kind of, this is kind of pointing to that, right, saying there is a true
33:30
wisdom and it'll watch over you. Now we can rely too on the Holy Spirit to say, give me discernment
33:35
in this Lord. But I think that's a good reminder to ask for that because I say that to me. I'm not
33:41
saying that to the audience. Like, Hey guys, you should take this wonderful advice. How many times
33:46
do I get into a situation and it'll be, it'll be Matt or it'll be some other person to where it's
33:52
like, Hey, have you like prayed about that at all? And it's like, shut up. You don't know me.
33:57
That's typically my response. But no, it's like literally have, have you sought God in that?
34:03
Hey, come with you. This seems really complicated. I mean, I'm sure trying to figure out the next,
34:09
you know, steps are really difficult in this moment. Have you gotten any direction from the
34:13
Holy Spirit? Have you gotten any prompting, which is a really polite way of saying like,
34:17
stop being a dingbat and like just, you know, you get you got a gift. Like the gift is the
34:21
Holy Spirit. Will you let him in? Will you let him talk? Have you prayed and have you prayed with
34:26
your Bible open with the Word of God sitting there in front of you and trying to find where
34:32
he's already said something so that you don't have to interpret your own feelings because
34:35
my feelings are really complicated. I think that's a really good point. I think we try to over
34:39
complicate praying and we try to, we try to bring something to God that he's never heard before.
34:43
And we try to say, okay, if I can eloquently pray something that will make God open his ears and
34:50
hear what I'm trying to say, maybe that will be good enough for him to like grant me what I'm
34:55
asking for. And it's like, man, how workspace does that? And then Jesus is like, Hey, hey,
35:00
let me show you how to pray right here. As you can, you can literally, if you don't know how to
35:04
pray, you can, and I've, I've been there in this place where you like, like you're saying, you open
35:09
up the Word. If you want God to speak to you, open up the Word. If you want God to, if you want to
35:13
hear God's voice, read the Bible loud. And that has been a very crucial thing for me to understand
35:20
because like Russell saying, pray with the Bible open, there's, there's nothing wrong with that.
35:25
In fact, that's probably a better way to pray anyway, because then you're not trying to rely on
35:28
your own understanding. You're diving into what God has put forth as his truth for us to intake,
35:36
but also speak. That's why the Psalms are so great. He's given us some some songs to sing to him.
35:42
Like, let's let's open up the word and do it. Yeah. You took a big deep breath. You better have
35:46
something cool to say. Well, I mean, I want to, I will go back. I'll go back to, you know,
35:53
this idea of intellectualism and the idea. I mean, in, in 210, the, one of the commentaries I read,
36:02
the idea that the words of evil men will be foreign to you. And I think, I don't know if any of you
36:11
have had this circumstance, you know, even with some of the events that have happened over the last,
36:15
you know, six months or so, some of the commentary that's come out publicly, you know, especially when
36:21
you start thinking of like just the situation in Israel, how, how often people would say things
36:28
that you can tell they've put a lot of thought and a lot of time and a lot of research into
36:34
coming up with this nuanced idea of what would be right or wrong in this situation. But those of
36:41
you who have wisdom, and I like you phrase that, that are on the other side of the cross, you hear
36:46
these things and you just go, that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard in my entire life. And
36:52
you're trying to be nuanced. And I know what you're trying to do. But this is so black and white,
36:58
there is just an unjust here. And it's just or unjust in the eyes of God. So again, this,
37:06
this idea, I do think that is something that if you start feeling like you maybe are working your
37:13
way towards this nuanced position in different aspects of your life, that there might be a reason
37:19
why you don't have to think this way or be this way or act this way, or maybe I have something that
37:25
is, you know, as we have been saying a lot, that's respectable, but sinful. And this, you know, I
37:33
can absolutely be angry about this, would you, you can, but you also have to forgive. And I think
37:41
that's something that a lot of people are struggling with on the other side of the crosses. How do I
37:48
operate within the society, but not look like it? Well, there's certainly that. But also there's,
37:52
again, this comes back to discernment. But just because somebody is smart about one subject doesn't
37:57
mean they're smart about all subjects. So good examples of is you will see a celebrity, maybe
38:02
it's your favorite actor that during election season, they also are giving you their opinions
38:07
on policy. And it's like, I am what I don't need. Sorry, Robert De Niro. I don't need your ideas
38:13
about immigration, like, sorry, LeBron James, I don't need your ideas about literally anything
38:16
because you can barely read like so like I don't need any of that. But also, I thought about when
38:20
you love us, what that LeBron can barely read. Yeah, I would. All the pictures. Here's the thing,
38:26
here's some evidence. Every time he's got a book with him in the locker room, look at how far he's
38:30
gotten into the book. It looks like he's been reading the introduction of a lot of books for a lot of
38:34
years. There are a few examples. He's had some pretty, some pretty thick books. And when asked,
38:40
he literally just quotes verbatim, the cover or the back cover of the book. So I'm not trying to,
38:46
I'm not trying to throw stones. Maybe he can read, maybe he can't Floyd Mayweather can't read.
38:50
He's one of the best boxers ever. LeBron James, if he couldn't read, he's still the second
38:53
phrase basketball player. Right. But the same thing is true, like when Elon Musk was on the
38:58
Joe Rogan experience last, Elon was talking about potentially fighting Mark Zuckerberg and all
39:03
that type of stuff. And then Elon Musk got into a discussion about certain fighting positions and
39:08
certain submissions. And everyone that it's ever trained, like any type of ground game, any type
39:14
of jujitsu, any type of wrestling is like, Oh, Elon Musk has no idea what he's talking about. Like,
39:19
this is legitimately one of the smartest people ever. Like one of the smartest people ever,
39:23
the things he's been able to do, his, his brain, his engine, all of that. But he doesn't know
39:28
anything about this. But there are dumb dums that are going to like be like, Oh, well, Elon Musk is
39:32
smart. So flowchart, does he know about everything? Yes. And same thing would be true. A while back,
39:37
I talked about Joe Rogan and his woeful ignorance about Jesus. Yeah, because Joe Rogan is using like
39:44
30 year old jank scholarship that a Jesus character from the Nazareth area probably didn't exist
39:51
historically, which is legitimately one of the dumbest things anyone can say. And so category,
39:56
categorically, you might be like, well, Joe Rogan is just a moron, which is clearly not true. But if
40:00
you're on the other side, and you're like, he seems very intelligent, he's probably intelligent
40:04
about a lot of things. I forget who said it, but it's like a lot of us have a Rolodex. And we have a
40:10
25, we have 25 cards in that Rolodex. And so if you bring up one of those topics, like, Hey,
40:14
who's the greatest baseball player ever? Or what's the best thing? What's the best version of the
40:19
Bible to read, blah, blah? We have a fully formed opinion that can be expressed on a note card
40:24
about that subject matter. Joe Rogan has like 300 of those, right? And so he's just going to
40:29
confidently give his opinion on these things. And he can be, you know, right about, you know,
40:35
cold plunges, and then he could be right about certain fighting positions. And then he could be
40:38
super duper wrong on like something like biblical exegesis. And so that's the thing you have to have
40:43
wisdom and you have to be able to discern in that before we move on to the rest of the latter half
40:48
of Proverbs two, just want to remind everybody that we are partnered with Crossway and with Logos.
40:52
So let's start with Logos first guys, if you're wanting to send your Bible study in a completely
40:57
different direction, and I mean super elevated, the Logos Bible software is an amazing thing for
41:02
you guys in the show notes, you can check out how you can get the Logos Bible software at a discount.
41:07
Basically, every tool that you ever have ever wanted with with the Bible, whether that's
41:11
commentaries, whether that's translations, whether that's workflows, if you're preparing sermons,
41:16
check out the Logos Bible software. I am not aware of another Bible software on this planet
41:19
that is anywhere near Logos. And then also with Crossway, we have a five book set. It's the
41:25
forging table starter set. A lot of you guys are like, well, I want to start a forging table.
41:28
Where do I start? Go to the links in the show notes. There are five books. There's a Bible in there.
41:33
There's a journal. There's a Paul David trip devotional. There's a couple others. It is a
41:37
tremendous set of books and you can get the entire set for 50% off. All that stuff is right there in
41:42
the show notes. Matt, we haven't heard your silky voice read the Bible yet. So let's go ahead and
41:46
put that mustache on the mic and let's hit 16 through 19. Turn on some slow music. Let's go.
41:51
Let's go. Pressure, even more pressure. So you will be delivered from the forbidden woman
42:00
from the adulterous with her smooth words, who forsakes the companion of her youth and forgets
42:05
the covenant of her God for her house sinks down to death and her paths to the departed. None who
42:12
go to her come back, nor do they regain the paths of life. So you will walk in just her 19. Oh,
42:18
yeah, we'll hit 20 through 22 at the end. Sorry, I got lost. Yeah, you got overzealous. But like,
42:22
so this is obviously a furtherance of this whole analogy of wisdom and how when a wisdom is
42:29
manifested and we'll see in kind of later proverbs, you know, you have wisdom and folly on kind of
42:34
either side. But the thing I wanted to talk about this is because when it talks about this woman
42:38
who's forsaking the companion of her youth, that is her lawful husband and forgets her covenant with
42:42
God. That is her marriage. I want to talk about men who specifically will fall for the words and
42:50
the seduction of the forbidden woman. So forbidden woman that you could say harlot, you could say
42:55
whore. And I specifically want to talk about this in terms of of people pastors who have been
43:02
called by God. So recently I was talking with a person and they I'm going to forget the details,
43:07
but I'll get the gist of it right. It said, open up your Bible to the front cover and write down
43:13
the names of your peers in ministry. And in 10 years, at least half of those names will have
43:18
disqualified themselves. Oh, and I was like, Oh, oh, and then it got worse. He goes, I did that.
43:27
10 years later, it was more like 90% of these men had disqualified themselves from ministry.
43:34
And the disqualifications weren't unique. The disqualifications were all the same. They were
43:39
related to affairs, hiding affairs, embezzlement of funds to hide the affair that you're trying to
43:45
hide from all these types of things, porn and different websites where you've got your information
43:50
and dating apps and all. It's all in that category of sexual sin. Now, I was thinking about this,
43:55
this morning, whenever I was getting everything set up for the forging table. We have different
44:01
standards in society. So we are held to a different standard. So we shouldn't be shocked when you
44:06
know, Brad Pitt can have an affair and no one's like, he should never be able to act ever again.
44:10
But when a pastor comes out, whether it's just a local pastor in your community or an
44:15
internationally known pastor has this happen, everybody inside the Christian world and outside
44:19
the Christian world is like, you are no longer like non-Christians wouldn't have this language,
44:23
but it's like you have disqualified yourself from the pulpit. And again, we'll have non-Christians
44:29
throw this back at us to where it's like, Hey, hey, Carl Lynch was a great pastor before.
44:33
He made some mistakes. That's how they say, Oh, I just made a mistake. Like he tripped and fell
44:36
into a woman's vagina repeatedly. But it's like at the same time, sorry, Jake, it happens. It just
44:41
happens from time to time. But like, then there were people will be like, wait a minute. I thought
44:45
I thought we were supposed to forgive. I thought we were supposed to forgive. Why can't Carl Lynch
44:49
just have his job back? And they don't understand to where it's like forgiveness is offered and
44:54
forgiveness is granted. That doesn't mean you get restored to your previous position. So I know
44:58
I threw a lot out there to you guys. So take that wherever you want to go. But man, it's so
45:02
unfortunate to see a lot of those. I bet I bet you could look at that list of your, you know,
45:08
peers. And once they've disqualified themselves, I bet you could go back and look at their,
45:14
you know, review or interview process. And I would be willing to bet that it is absent
45:22
of a church going through Paul's letter to Timothy, where it talks about any of you who seek to be
45:27
an overseer of a church. And then it lists out what that person should, should do, should be about
45:34
and should be able to do before he ever even commits to the pursuit of that office.
45:40
And I'd be willing to bet a lot of those guys didn't meet any of those qualifications in for
45:44
Timothy. And so I think it starts there. Do our churches open up the words? Do our churches care?
45:49
What the word says about what it means to actually lead a flock of people.
45:54
Or do they just want a guy with a square jaw that has like some funny things that he says
45:58
as you know, who can who can say things real good? And people got a pretty loud word.
46:05
That's always where this conversation goes. All right. Is he tweetable?
46:09
Well, no, that that's a really good point. But yeah, you guys keep going on that.
46:14
I mean, I think one of the things that I would say in terms of the disqualifying themselves
46:22
in a way, I mean, everybody's kind of disqualified at a little to an extent.
46:29
I mean, just because just because their sin has not been laid bare before everyone
46:35
does not mean that they don't have any. Again, probably going back to
46:41
their respectable, but sinful.
46:45
It's just this particular category that is so because of course you're right. It's just this
46:50
category is is so specific. But I think it really goes into, you know, Satan is a counterfeater,
46:57
right? So he is the best counterfeater. So he will take something that was meant for good.
47:00
And he will like just twist it just a little bit, just a few degrees. It's always did God really say.
47:04
And so it's like, okay, Satan is aiding these men and absolutely torpedoing their marriages,
47:11
which leads to disqualifying them from the pulpit. And it's like, it's his go to,
47:16
which you would think that would be since it's since that's such a high bar, a covenant of marriage.
47:21
And but it's like, look, if I'm trying to destroy the connection between people understanding the
47:26
love of God, let's attack marriage. Why? Because what is the closest thing we get to understanding
47:31
Jesus's sacrifice for the church? It's how we are supposed to love our wives as Christ loved
47:35
the church, Ephesians five. And so it's that same type of scenario to where it's like,
47:39
if I can get the pastor that everybody was looking to for wisdom and discernment and exegesis and
47:44
whatever, and I can get him to do this, right? I don't need to get him to murder somebody. I don't
47:49
need to get him to make the decision to, you know, start wearing dresses and choppers peepee off.
47:53
Like, I just need to get him to torpedo his marriage, because then everything he said is
47:58
automatically disqualified. Look at Robbie Zacharias. We find out post death that he was a horrific
48:04
sexual deviant. Now people are like, Oh, no, I got saved at a RZIM event. Am I actually saved?
48:09
Oh, I used to have our Robbie Zacharias book on my book list. Like, is my book list now bunk?
48:15
Because it had one Robbie Zacharias book on you kind of see what I'm saying. It just starts to unravel.
48:19
Well, I think you can, I think another devious part of this is Satan use a scripture
48:25
to accomplish his ends too. And so there is a level of ego that goes into becoming a pastor
48:33
who's very well received, who's liked in the world, who gains followers, who has a massive
48:39
church. And I think Satan uses scripture to kind of put that in his head. Don't touch the
48:45
anointed. I can do what I want because I'm doing the annoying and I'm above reproach,
48:52
because I'm a pastor and I can literally do what I want. And there's zero times that ever works out.
48:59
Think about think about David, you know, like go all the way back to that and ruling his kingdom.
49:04
And then it says at the time of year, when kings were preparing to make war, what's he doing?
49:10
Yeah, he's complacent. And where is that needs kind of like, man, I've got this and this is a
49:14
good place to be. And then he falls and that did not work out well. Yeah, so go ahead, Jake.
49:20
Yeah, I'm gonna say I read this in a commentary and I just thought it's apropos here. Those who
49:25
enter the house of the immoral woman find only ghosts of those who preceded them and discover
49:30
too late that there is no exit. To me, that's powerful imagery and accurately and graphically
49:36
describing the results of following the allurement of sexual sin. It is the easiest thing to follow.
49:42
But all I mean, look, this isn't just like, this isn't just like, okay, I'm having an affair on my
49:48
wife. This is this is pornography too. Right. It's it's right there. I mean, it's you're the
49:54
allurement of sexual sin. It's so easy and it's so easy. I mean, I'm sure there's all sorts of
49:59
justification you can try and throw on this as to why this is okay. Yeah, it's not.
50:04
And it's also chosen installation. And so I would love to be able to give specific credit. But I
50:11
don't know. So at the act, 29 Conference, Joby Martin opened it, Matt Chandler closed it. I can't
50:15
remember which one of them said this. So they both get partial credit here. Okay, so it's like a
50:18
shared national championship. If you are isolated. Yeah, I know that's kind of rough. Like I hate
50:25
that. But if you are isolated as a pastor, as a senior pastor, if you're isolated, you chose that.
50:30
You chose isolation because you started getting high on your own farts at some point. And you're
50:36
just like, I'm the guy that everybody looks at. And so I don't need rebuke. I don't need men in my
50:41
life that can pull me aside and grab me by the scruff of my shirt and say you're not going to do
50:45
that anymore. And it's because we as men, we don't invite other men to hold us accountable. So let's
50:52
go all the way back to college. So you brought the porn thing. So when I was trying to get over
50:58
porn, and this is when I was just dating my wife, and it's like, you know, you just assume because
51:02
you're dumb, you're like, Oh, look at porn now. But then when I get married, I won't need that
51:06
anymore. Because I'll literally just be drowning in sexual experiences. And it's just like it never
51:10
works out like that for any, any guy ever. Because the allure of porn doesn't have a timetable.
51:15
It's just there. And so for some guys, they're allure is to the chemical. So it's it's drugs
51:20
or alcohol or something like that. To some guys, it's the experience. They just love lying or they
51:25
love stealing for me. It's a sexual I've been very open about that. But Matt, I remember when I
51:29
came to you during this process, and I came over to the apartment where you were staying at, and I
51:34
thought I was going to talk to you. And when I got out of the car, there was no talking, I literally
51:37
just broke down in tears. And you just sat there and hugged me and you just sat there and just
51:41
let me literally cry on your shoulder. And it's because I had invited Matt into my life to be able
51:49
to hold me accountable. Right. And so there was a whole process thereafter of, okay, yeah,
51:54
you know, Bible software is fine, filtering software is fine. But you know how to get around
51:57
all that stuff. You need men in your life that, Hey, my wife is going out of town and you text
52:03
that to several different guys. Hey, this normally would be a trigger because I'm alone and I'm bored.
52:07
And so I would normally throw my pants around my ankles and be a real hero in front of my computer.
52:12
Like, and you just need guys texting you every few hours to be like, Hey, man, you're doing good.
52:16
Hey, hey, you want to go, you want to go play some pickup basketball or something? Like,
52:20
Hey, let's go do something. But if you've isolated yourself to a degree where you have no one in
52:24
your life that would even think to question you, it's like, bro, you didn't, it didn't start with
52:30
with the affair. It started way before that when a lot of that was your choosing.
52:34
Yeah, I'll just also say this to the men out there who are struggling with this. Number one,
52:39
you do need some accountability. But right. And you need to understand something else. I mean,
52:44
I grew up in a house where a Playboy magazine was delivered once a month and just unabashedly
52:50
for the articles. Absolutely. Very interesting.
52:53
But that's the house I grew up in. It was, it was not just, you know,
53:00
it wasn't that it was not even considered sinful. It was like no big deal. I mean, it was just there.
53:04
And so whenever I got married to my wife, whenever she found out that I had that addiction,
53:14
it was really tough for me to go from, you have this huge problem with it. And I just think this
53:20
is just normal. Yeah. And what you don't understand is whether you think your kids know or not,
53:28
they're going to know, they're going to find out the truth will out your wife will find out.
53:34
You have to end it. And I tried all sorts of things to conquer this on my own,
53:42
but the only time I ever got serious about it was the when I just started bringing Jesus into it
53:49
every single time. And I started actually being able to say I had this problem, or I have this
53:56
problem. And this is something that I am tempted with. And having that accountability and confessing
54:00
it now I confessed it to my wife. Not easy to do. But it is something that you have to do.
54:08
So just understand that if this is part of your, we'll just call it routine.
54:14
You have no idea how much you're affecting. I mean, sin lasts the third and fourth generation.
54:24
That's biblical. Your kids will struggle. Yeah, stop it. Stop it. Yeah, it goes back to what
54:30
you're saying earlier. So yes, you have to break through routine. And so it's like pray with your
54:34
Bible open. So second Corinthians 10 five has caused a lot of my boners to run away because it's
54:39
that's that's. This is your fist bump moment. Okay, all right, because I literally wrote that
54:46
down because I didn't want to forget it. Nice. Okay, so read second Corinthians 10 five.
54:49
Then I'm gonna back up. I'm gonna back up to second Corinthians 10 for because I think that's
54:54
okay, that's a really good thing to throw in here too. For the weapons of war of our warfare
54:59
are not of the flesh, but we have divine power to destroy strongholds. We destroy arguments and
55:04
every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God and take every thought captive to obey Christ.
55:09
So so with that. So that's why I wrote it down because that was the verse I memorized to where
55:14
it's like we don't mind was we demolish all arguments and every pretension that sets itself
55:20
up against the knowledge of God. We take captive every thought and make it accountable to God. And
55:24
so the thing with that is your thought life is where that starts. I am thinking that I am bored.
55:30
And so because some guys don't go to porn, they go to the highlight reel. So they go to their
55:35
highlight reel sexually and then they come back to that and use that as an experience. But a lot of
55:40
times when I talk to guys that are struggling with porn, like, I just don't know how to kick
55:42
the habit. It's like, okay, people don't just watch porn. They watch porn and they masturbate.
55:48
So let's focus. It's like we don't America doesn't have a porn problem. We have a masturbation problem.
55:52
Okay, because again, people aren't just casually watching porn. They're using it as a masturbatory
55:57
aid. And so it's like, if you pre-decide that I am not a person that masturbates,
56:03
then porn just goes away, right? The temptation doesn't, right? But you're breaking the cycle,
56:09
whether that's a generational sin cycle, or you're breaking the habit of whenever I am in this
56:13
position, I do this particular action of acting out. That's that's the whole thing that I tell
56:18
guys. Some guys can just do that with discipline, you know, jocko discipline, discipline equals
56:22
freedom. Like some people can do it that way. That was more so my way, but I had to infuse it
56:28
with something that was wisdom filled from God, which is second Corinthians 10 five, which is like,
56:32
dude, like, I'm going to take captive every thought and make it accountable to Christ.
56:36
And it would literally be I'd be sitting there in bed when I would would normally perform this
56:41
act and it'd be like the thoughts that I'm about to let in are these Christ honoring. That's a
56:46
pretty easy flow chart fellas. Like just goes right to know. And it's like, all right, I guess I'm
56:50
going to be doing something else with my time. If it takes you more than a second to get to
56:55
know, and it's like, you should probably open your Bible. Yep. And again, like guys,
57:01
yeah, don't don't hear what we're not saying because some people are like, well, every time
57:04
you think about masturbating, you just grab your Bible, you just start, you just open it up to a
57:08
page and you just start reading and I'll fix everything. That's not necessarily what we're saying.
57:11
Sometimes the scripture just needs to be in here. Guys, it needs to be in your heart and it needs
57:17
to be in your brain so that you can apply it in that moment because sometimes it's not Bible
57:21
study time. It's just remember time. Yeah. I mean, hopefully when you are on that business trip out
57:25
of town in your hotel by yourself, hopefully the Gideon's were generous that then and throw that
57:30
Bible in there. That's right. I do like to I do like so on the opening your Bible thing. Me and
57:36
somebody is talking through this is that I do not like to give the devil or his team or the systems
57:43
that he's set up in this world that distract us from God, which sexual temptation is one of them.
57:48
I don't like to give him a win. So one thing that we've talked through is throw that back in his face.
57:54
You know, that is where I think that the scripture can help is that just completely demoralize what
58:00
he's trying to do. And whenever what does that is, whenever the same thing that he did with Jesus
58:05
when he was bringing stuff up and Jesus brought up scripture to him. Like if that can turn you to
58:10
scripture, you have those scriptures right there, and that will completely demoralize what Satan's
58:15
trying to do in that moment, because you are then taking worship in God. We've taken it even to the
58:20
step of saying, Hey, if you see yourself happen to glance, not not focus on not like don't take this
58:27
too far, but glance towards beauty in something that you know, you shouldn't be recognized.
58:31
Just take that back to God and thank God. Say thank you for that person. God, you have made it a
58:37
that's a creation that is in your image. Thank you for that. Lord, Lord, let me focus on my life.
58:43
Let me focus on the things that I have that you have given to me.
58:46
Going back to what you said something earlier, Matt, about how we try and be so eloquent with
58:52
prayer. I know for me, the way that I got past this mostly, I mean, it was prayer. I mean,
58:58
it was a lot of prayer, but I would also say it was not eloquent at all. It was very much, you know,
59:06
the Nehemiah prayers, the tweet prayers, just Jesus help me. Jesus help me. Like, I am struggling
59:14
right now. Please help me, you know, get this out of my head. Just over and over. I mean,
59:19
it honestly, it will go away if you're talking to God, it will go away. I mean, it will.
59:25
And so those struggles that you're experiencing reading the word is obviously, you know, knowing
59:33
the word and being able to bring the word into that immediately is going to help. Prayer helps,
59:38
and you don't have to be able to recite Scripture. I am not somebody who has that gift.
59:42
Just pray. Just know that it says to capture the thought. Like you can find that scripture,
59:50
you know, I can't remember it all. I can't remember where it's found.
59:53
I know that the Lord tells me that I have the power to capture that thought and to make it
59:56
submissive to his will. The best part about that is it goes beyond sexual temptation. It can,
1:00:01
it goes into your entire life. Right. You can use that for your entire, your entire walk
1:00:07
as a Christian. So for me, I've used, I've used second Corinthians 10 five for my
1:00:11
negativity and pessimism to where it's like, I am having only negative thoughts. Now,
1:00:15
I kind of have this thing to where it's like, my pessimism saves me because it's like,
1:00:19
with somebody, I just assume the person I've asked to do a thing will never do that thing.
1:00:23
So that if they don't do the thing, I get to be right. And if they do do the thing,
1:00:26
then I just get to be pleasantly surprised. But that's not a great way to operate with life.
1:00:29
That's not a great way to operate with your wife and with your children. So that's not really a
1:00:33
good thought process. But guys, we're, we're running up against time here. So I do want
1:00:36
us to hit these last few verses. So Jake, if you'll close out Proverbs two with a 20 through 22.
1:00:40
So you will walk in the way of the good and keep to the path of the righteous.
1:00:46
For the upright will inhabit the land and those with integrity will remain in it.
1:00:51
But the wicked will be cut off from the land and the treacherous will be rooted out of it.
1:00:55
So let's talk about rooted out just really quick. Another way of saying that is utterly destroyed.
1:01:01
So when you think rooted out, it's like, I just pulling up roots, you're pulling up a weed or
1:01:05
something like that. No, no, no, we're talking about utter destruction. That is what potentially
1:01:10
comes for somebody that doesn't heed the warnings of this wisdom literature right here. And so
1:01:15
guys, there's certainly more that could be said about Proverbs two, but we're going to have to
1:01:18
leave it there. But guys, come back next Sunday, where we're going to be digging into Proverbs nine.
1:01:23
So make sure you read Proverbs nine before you come back here next week. But before we
1:01:26
let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost out undaunted life or mission is equipping
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