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This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast.
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I'm your host Kyle Thompson.
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Let's get into it.
0:57
Welcome back to the Forging Table.
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The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with content that
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forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience.
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So at the Forging Table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience
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by digging into God's Word, and we're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with
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us.
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That's Jake.
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That's Ryan.
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That's Matt.
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Guys, we're digging into Nehemiah 9.
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And there is a lot here.
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There is a ton in Nehemiah 9 that I think is very, very important.
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One interesting thing is that now on the 24th day of this month, they're thinking this
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is October of 444 BC.
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So this is 2,500 years ago.
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So one thing I just want to put in your minds as we're going through Nehemiah, the rest
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of Nehemiah, but also the stuff that we've gone over before.
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Think about how similar these people acted 2,500 years ago to how you act today.
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Think about how similarly they think about certain situations.
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It's almost as if there's a wiring in humanity to act in a certain way, regardless of the
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types of clothes or technology that we have.
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But there's so many good things here that we're working into.
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But as we were discussing this off air, Ryan, you were talking about just the importance
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of for you in verse 2.
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So how about you read verses 1 and 2, and then we'll launch into what you were thinking
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about that.
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Now on the 24th day of this month, the people of Israel were assembled with fasting and
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in sackcloth and with earth on their heads.
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And the Israelites separated themselves from all the foreigners and stood and confessed
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their sins and the iniquities of their fathers.
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So what I love about this verse is if we just go back to the verse we talked about last
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week in chapter 8, I mean, that was a revival.
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There was a revival going on in Jerusalem.
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They were reading the law of God and they were coming to terms with how they separated
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themselves from that.
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And so when a true revival happens, I believe, and I believe the Bible states that in the
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end there's going to be repentance, there's going to be something that's going to bring
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you back when you're when you're having a revival on who you are.
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As you meet Christ and as you're filled with the Holy Spirit, there's a repentance that's
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come along.
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There's a change of mind.
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And these people were changing their minds on how they acted during and what their fathers
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did to break the covenant with with God's people.
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And so there's a repentance coming from that revival.
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So you said true revival.
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So I'm getting the sense that there might be an example here.
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I am leading you.
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I am leading you.
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I'm leading you.
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You want to talk about Asbury?
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Yeah.
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Oh, I didn't even know.
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Asbury.
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Yeah.
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I mean, what's that?
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It's a college that schedules their revivals, but go ahead and schedules them.
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Yeah.
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I hate to go after revivals, you know, because you don't know what's going to happen at
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the end of them.
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But a lot of the stuff that was seeping out from that revival, the people that were going
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to it, it just, I didn't feel, I didn't see any repentance from it.
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I didn't see people repenting and changing from the cultural aspects and narratives of
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the actual world that they're living in against God's covenant.
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And it's just, I think that's something that we need to look at.
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If people are claiming revival and saying that certain things are revival, we need to
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look and see what repentance.
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Why was there a revival?
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There's a revival.
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There needs to be a change.
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And what is that change?
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And I don't think we've seen that change.
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It's been what a couple of months now, maybe a year before before we come in, because I
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know, uh, magic, you have thoughts on this.
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I think all of us would acknowledge that we fervently were hoping that what happened
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in Asbury was legitimate.
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Oh, yeah.
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That it was a real revival.
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And I think that there is certainly evidence that people came to Christ because of that
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revival, members of that, that school and people that just came to visit that it caused
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people to turn towards the scriptures in a way that maybe they hadn't done before because
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they wanted it to be true.
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So I think all of us share a healthy skepticism of most things because we're so, uh, the focus
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on capital T truth, but at the same time, I think that's kind of how I was talking about
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on the show.
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Like I was cautiously optimistic.
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I was like, I hope so.
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But then it was like whenever they're like, Oh, the, the revival is becoming too much of
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a burden on the city, so we're going to move the revival off site.
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And also if the first 500 people get Chick-fil-A sandwiches, it's like, I don't know that you
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need to do that.
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If there's a real move of God happening, I just don't know that we're going to have
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logistical concerns that, you know, are going to take over God.
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But I just wanted to say that before we continue to come to a real revival and, you know,
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people are showing up.
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They're showing up with reverence.
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They're not taking selfies and saying, Hey, I'm at the revival, you know, uh, which you
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were seeing a lot on Twitter.
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Um, and so it's just, I, I get, I agree with you.
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I hope good came out of it.
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I'm, I'm sure some good things came out of it, but I mean, this is what a biblical revival
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looks like.
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I think when you start talking, any revival, it requires repentance.
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It really does.
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I mean, now, and I look at this situation in Nehemiah, okay, who's here?
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These are the people who have come back from exile, okay?
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It was not, I mean, they're a sinful people, but it was not their sin that got them into
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exile.
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It was their fathers, their grandfathers.
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It was all their forefathers that basically sent them to Babylon and now they're back.
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And they're here repenting not just for their own sin, but the, for the sin of the third
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and fourth generation above them.
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And I think that, you know, I, I read Jaco Willing's extreme ownership.
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I don't know if anybody has read that book, but the concept here applies.
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There is failure.
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Whatever lays at my feet, I am accountable for it.
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It doesn't.
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There's no exceptions here.
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It's like, well, I did this, but, you know, Matt, Matt's the one that took me there and,
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and, and, and, which, which is probably true in the most cases, but Matt's the one that
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took me there, but, you know, so I wouldn't even have gone if it wasn't for Matt, you know,
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it's like, no, I'm responsible for my action.
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What I've done, what my family's done, you know, I'm leader of a home.
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I'm the male in the home.
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I am a leader.
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If my child does something, if my wife does something, I'm just as responsible for that
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because I have not modeled obviously a leader behavior.
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So they're with repentance.
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I mean, that's ownership.
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It's like you have to, you're, you're going to fail, you're going to fall short, but repentance
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requires ownership.
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We get what we deserve.
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Amen.
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And that's, I mean, that is so true and unless you're in Christ, then you're not getting
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what you deserve because we're in Christ.
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But yeah, I think there's a danger in just tossing something aside and just, you know,
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going so hard on the revival that happened at Asbury or the proclaimed revival and just
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to say, oh, it's, that's not anything.
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We serve a God that could use something like that and have it all be for show, but one
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person comes to Christ and that be to his glory.
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So there is a danger in us just tossing it to the side, but I think also we are called
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to discern and we should be able to judge that by the fruits of the things that come
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out.
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Was there repentance?
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And I would agree it doesn't, didn't look like there was a ton of, I cannot believe how
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sin fly in.
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There wasn't a lot of repentance there and it did seem more of a, Hey, look at me.
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We don't, I wasn't there.
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I don't think any of us were there.
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So I don't think we can fully understand that.
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But yeah, I, I back to this, like that's clearly a revival and as we're about to see like they're
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going to confess.
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I mean, they're going to spend a quarter of a day confessing their sins and then talking
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about God's graciousness, patience with them and everything.
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And so I think, I think that's just something that we need to look at when, when we're talking
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about a revival is, you know, what is, what is this revival going to lead to?
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We can't judge it based upon what it is at that moment.
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We can judge it later on on what it's done.
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Yeah.
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So I think we have to look at even so in the case of the asbury revival, even in maybe
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it's imperfection, God still used it.
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And I think that's also a key point.
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God's he can use anything.
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Okay.
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Things that came out with the best of intentions, you know, like I said, I don't think I would,
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I don't think I would be in a camp where I would say, well, as berries, you know, it was
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not a good thing.
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It may not be the revival that we're looking for.
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But it was probably overall in that positive God was able to use that to actually bring
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more people to him, hopefully spurs that into further diving into the ward word and maybe,
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maybe the person that actually went to asbury is the one that's going to actually start
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the real revival.
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So there's no real telling in terms of how things are going to work out.
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But ultimately, I think that having that faith that whatever is, you know, like what, I can't
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remember the, just being on the table, well, I can't remember, I can't remember what the
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name of the Pharisee was.
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But when he talked about whether they should kill Peter and Paul, he said, if I kill them,
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you can kill them.
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But if you don't kill them and they continue down this road, if it is up, if you kill them,
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then you are killing something that God wants.
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But if you let them live and they continue to preach and it dies out, if it's not of God,
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it won't continue.
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So I think in the case of the asbury revival, if it's not going to die out, if there's
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something that grows and blossoms from that, then you probably have something that was
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of God in the first place.
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You see some of that mirrored in David's story, two times he has Saul delivered to him.
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But he just, he's so reverent of God's anointed that he refuses to strike down Saul because
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he is anointed.
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Who am I is basically his attitude, who am I to kill this person who's been anointed
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by God?
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God, God will bring him to an end the way he wants to do that.
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I think it's kind of funny to look at because we look at, let's look at Joel's team.
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Let's look at Andy Stanley, like they're still out there doing their thing and who knows
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how many people they are actually leading to Christ.
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But when do we, when do we say, Hey, this isn't, this isn't right.
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I, I think, I think you can call out false teaching, but our weapon is the word of God.
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And we are to call out wrong teaching and to correct in love and truth, the Holy Spirit's
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the one that's going to move.
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And the wrath of God is being poured out on the ungodly.
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And I have nothing to do with that.
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So put, put whatever person you want in, in that box who is a false teacher.
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Romans talks about God giving people up to their sin and the wrath of God being poured
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out right now.
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And he's giving those people up.
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Our job is to say, Hey, that's not right.
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Am I to go to Joel Osteen and say you're not reaching correctly?
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No, I think there are people who are called to do that other pastors.
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But if, if I know someone that that is, I love Joel Osteen, can I rebuke that in a loving
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way?
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100 percent, but I'm going to do that with the word of God and I'm very careful in doing
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that.
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Sure.
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You know, it's, especially if they're a new Christian is like one thing I've had to learn
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from my cage stage Calvinist days, you know, being a Theo bro.
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You know, it's like, man, you can't just go at people.
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You can't just be like, rebuke, rebuke, rebuke.
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It's just like, all right.
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You get a rebuke.
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Yeah.
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What do you like about Joel Osteen?
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Yeah.
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Like, let me know.
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And then like, you know, I have some family members that listen to people I probably wouldn't
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want to listen to.
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But I listened to them.
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I'm like, tell me more about that.
13:14
Well, there's some good things here.
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But I want to think about those things there.
13:18
And so I think that's where it's like, Hey, we've got this platform, you know, we're
13:21
sitting here talking and there's, we're always going to joke about those pastors.
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But it's just like, there's people actually out there that believe them.
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And we can't just say, well, they're not saved because we don't know that.
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They have salvation.
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We just, I never want to judge somebody on their salvation period ever, no matter who
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they came, who they say they got it from.
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I want to help grow that salvation.
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Sure.
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Who's the, who's the best preacher in the entire United States?
13:47
It doesn't matter who you name, just name somebody.
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There are people that aren't saved in their church.
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Yeah.
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And they're sitting under right preaching sound doctrine.
13:56
So you're right.
13:57
We can't, we can't judge anybody on their salvation.
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Rebuking people and when you go going to your point, Ryan, rebuking people is a challenging
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thing and can go horribly wrong if you are not well prepared.
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I would encourage if that is something that you're facing right now, I would encourage
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that you read the book tactics by Gregory Kugel on the list on the list.
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So I have not looked at that list, apparently I need to, but you already read half the books.
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But it's an, I mean, it is such a helpful book because it takes it, it approaches things
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with a questioning mind, you know, I'm an auditor.
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And I tell my staff all the time, like, you should be asking five wise, if the truth cannot
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hold up to a sixth, why?
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Like if they can't, if they are, they, they will not be able to explain it within five.
14:54
If they, if it falls apart within five, that it's not true.
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So keep asking why on these certain things, like, well, why do you like this preacher?
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Well, why is that an important message for you?
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Well, why did you get in that situation in the first place?
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Like what's, what's led you there?
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As long as you can continue in a inquisitive mode, you know, it's, I like what my dad used
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to, my dad told me all the, all grown up because people don't like me and told what
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to do.
15:25
They like to be able to figure it out on their own.
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Yeah.
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And also kind of, that book helps kind of frame where your right place in the story, it's
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because he's very clear on most of us are not harvesters.
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We are gardeners in God's garden and planning a seed or tending to the garden.
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Holy Spirit is going to do the work.
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It's not our job to bring you out of sin and into the body of Christ.
15:54
The Holy Spirit will do that.
15:55
But if I can ask you questions, and most of the time people that believe wrong things
16:01
will unravel their arguments themselves, if asked enough questions, right, and then that
16:05
can start the conversation.
16:07
And statements and conversations, questions, start them.
16:11
So in a sense, like on a platform like this, yes, we can say Kenneth Copeland, false teacher,
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he teaches a false gospel, but talking to somebody that, that relational conversation
16:26
is going to go a lot further than rebuke.
16:29
You're going to hell.
16:30
Right.
16:31
Well, the one thing that if anybody can remember anything from, from Greg Hochl's book tactics
16:36
as they remember, you know, just put a rock in their shoe and it's like, yeah, it's, you
16:40
don't have to hit a grand slam every time you come up to the plate.
16:42
You don't have to get on base every time, but it's like you, you have to honor yourself.
16:45
But that, that not honor yourself, but you have to honor what truth is.
16:48
You have to honor God and the way you're asking questions.
16:50
And that's why when I train people to engage pro-abortion arguments, I give them questions
16:54
to ask people back.
16:55
So, you know, like they say, you know, my body, my choice, well, here are some questions
16:59
that you can ask back to them.
17:01
That will help if they're being intellectually honest, reveal some of their nonsense ideologies,
17:05
but also it's going to kind of put them on their heels because so many times we, we allow
17:09
ourselves to be put on our heels and we get on the defensive and it's like, no, you need
17:13
to be more offensive in your approach.
17:15
But it really comes, comes down to are the, are these things right?
17:18
Are they true?
17:19
And we, we see that as we continue on and Nehemiah and again, guys, there's so many things that
17:23
we can go over here.
17:24
But Matt, you and I were talking a little bit off air about versus verse 13.
17:27
So how about you, you read verse 13 and then kind of launch into why that one stood out
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to you.
17:32
So you came down on Mount Sinai and spoke with them from heaven and gave them right
17:37
rules and true laws, good statutes and commandments.
17:41
And so the reason that stood out to me is I think we're, we're literally watching God
17:46
unfold the sanctification of his people.
17:49
So we've come back to, we've been called back to Jerusalem, we've, we've, uh, dived into
17:56
the word and we are seeking to understand the word and now there is a confession of sin.
18:03
And so we are, we are literally seeing the sanctification of God's people carried out
18:09
and they're seeing why, why did you give us these things?
18:14
It's for our good.
18:16
And it's so we know how to live and we know how if we love you, we will obey your commandments.
18:24
And it is an, it's an invitation as much as it is a warning to seek holiness, be holy
18:30
because I am holy is an invitation from God, not to be perfect, but to seek that holiness.
18:36
And that's, that's what, that's what these rules and laws and statutes were put into
18:41
place.
18:42
Like I want you to be holy as I am holy.
18:46
And so that, that was, that's what stood out to me there was the sanctification process,
18:49
which is a process for all of us.
18:52
And it happens quicker or different times for other people.
18:55
So love to hear y'all, y'all's thoughts on that as well.
19:01
Thinking back to that catechism, just trying to remember it and go over it with my kids.
19:07
Um, man, but, uh, it goes back to obeying God's commands and laws.
19:15
I can't think of the question to, to begin with it.
19:18
But, uh, I think that, you know, what he gave us is beautiful, you know, and like, I think
19:25
that we missed that fact because we're so scared of it.
19:29
We're so scared that this points out our depravity and we want to think of ourselves as good.
19:35
And so we want to push it away and it's just, I don't know, I'm so, I'm still like just
19:42
sitting on that verse right now, just like, just listen, like the beauty of it, you know.
19:48
So, you know, raising the Catholic church, we obviously have a lot of, a lot of rules
19:53
and a lot of things that we have to follow, um, you know, and, and I have this discussion
19:59
with my wife all the time, you know, it's like, okay, I've come, you know, I've learned
20:04
a lot, but you know, the idea of confession, okay, like go to a priest and you confess
20:09
your sins.
20:10
Okay.
20:11
Do I need that? Do I need to confess them to the priest in order to be healed, deemed,
20:18
sanctified so that I can go to heaven?
20:22
No, I don't.
20:24
It took me a long time to get there, but what have I learned?
20:28
Well, at the same time, there is nothing that has ever felt more healing than actually confessing
20:34
those sins to another person, which we're called to do biblically, you know, I confess
20:39
your sins to one another. We're called to do that biblically, uh, I think it's real easy.
20:44
You can see how much so many churches can fall into orthodoxy so easily and start creating
20:53
these rules and structures. And this is what our theology says. And there really isn't
20:59
an our theology statement that should exist biblically because there should just be one.
21:06
So I think when you start talking about why are these people who are, you know, when when
21:11
Ezra's talking to them and preaching, why are they so interested in what he's hearing?
21:16
Well, it's because everything that Ezra is teaching, it's true to the tradition in which
21:23
it is being derived. It's all from God. And we know that to the point of discernment.
21:30
I know this is of God because I know the word and I'm following what he's saying. So as
21:37
we're preaching this, it's like, no, absolutely. But then when you start, you know, then you
21:42
start seeing just like the Pharisees, they started piling on little extra things here
21:45
and there. It's like, well, you can't, you know, remember the Sabbath day to keep it
21:49
holy. Yes, absolutely. But you can't, you can't walk on the Sabbath more than a certain
21:54
amount of feet. Okay, where's that from? What's that from? You know, where does it say that
21:59
in the Bible? It doesn't. So that truth to Orthodoxy and making sure that you have that
22:06
discernment to know that you're following scripture. You know, I said in a previous
22:12
podcast that, you know, the judgment and there's don't judge people, you know, the big thing,
22:18
the big argument against Christians is we shouldn't be judging other people. And this
22:23
whole idea, this whole idea that, you know, you don't have the ability to have the discernment
22:29
to know what is true and what is not. If you have decided that certain things are okay
22:35
society, if you've decided to take the rules of the world and say, nope, you know what?
22:39
I think this is okay. This thing, the Bible's wrong about this. Okay. I'm going to tell
22:45
you it's not. My truth is here. And it's 100% laid bare. And if I'm doing something inconsistent
22:52
with this, you are more than welcome to call me on it. I'm happy to, I'm happy to deal
22:56
with that myself. But at the same time, you're creating theology whole cloth. You've decided,
23:03
no, the Bible doesn't go far enough, or it's not true. And I'm going to add adendums, footnotes,
23:10
whatever I need to do. So that that's real religion now, because we live in an era of
23:14
my truth. That's right. Like this is my truth. And we don't, it's a it's a derivative of
23:22
just an overall postmodern ideology to where it's like, okay, if you make a true statement
23:27
over me or over the situation, you're somehow in the wrong, and you might actually be an
23:33
evil bigot as well. And so, you know, jury's still out on that. And so I think that that's
23:37
part of the problem is, you know, we look at this and it's talking about how I gave them
23:40
right rules and true laws. Like, can you imagine someone talking about like, just even look
23:45
at it in a political context, like modern politics, imagine someone saying this is a
23:48
right rule. This is a true law. People like whoever is on the opposite side of where that
23:55
person sits, they're going to lose their mind. How could how you haven't cornered the market
23:59
on truth and rightness and blah, blah, blah. And so it's like, what is the foundation from
24:03
which you are, you are presenting this law or advocating for it? And I forget the quote,
24:09
maybe mugged or someone, but it's like how these people have their feet planted firmly in midair.
24:13
Yeah. And that's that's the problem that most of these people have is they want to talk about how,
24:17
hey, this is what you should do. Like, this is how you should act. This is what we should legislate.
24:23
But it's like, okay, based on what? Who are you appealing to? Wait a minute, you think that we're
24:27
highly evolved chimps that talk to each other that used to be Stardust. And it's just like,
24:32
I'm sorry, you don't you don't get ought from is like, you're gonna have to help me with that.
24:36
Well, I think Clusius says that nothing new is under the sun. And just as the Pharisees were
24:41
worshiping the creation instead of the Creator, because the Sabbath was a creation by God given to
24:47
his people. And they worship the Sabbath. You you fast forward to now people who are in their own
24:57
truth, they're worshiping the creation and not the Creator. So it all amounts basically to the same
25:05
thing, right? Like, we're not worshiping God. And to your point, yeah, where does that come from?
25:11
And right here in 13, like, it's laid bare, like, it's in the Mosaic law, like he gave that to us,
25:20
like, we should strive to follow that. Even as modern day New Testament Christians,
25:29
the law still is applicable to us, right? Wouldn't this be considered like a covenant renewal? I mean,
25:37
basically what they're doing is are confessing of their sins. And now like, we're going over
25:41
the covenant again, we're going to go over the laws that, you know, God gave us because they're
25:46
right and they're just and they're beautiful. And so you say that when you're seeing these people
25:52
as Old Testament before Christ come into that realization, you know, it's like you said, it's
25:58
like you've got even though we're in a new creation, we're in a new covenant, we still have to go back
26:02
and look at the beauty of what this was. If you love me, obey my commandments. Yeah, Jesus.
26:06
Also, here's another thing. How can you obey them if you don't know them? If you don't, exactly,
26:12
exactly sanctification is for God's people. And I think back to some, some things we were talking
26:20
about how to talk to people like, there are different speed limits and different lanes
26:25
for different people. Like if I see Winkler and sin, I am going to have a different conversation
26:35
with you than I am somebody that I don't know very well because there are different speed limits.
26:42
And if you are a brother in Christ, it is, I am duty bound to love you enough to say,
26:49
hey, you are in sin. I'm calling you out on that. That's a hard thing to, I mean, if you think about,
26:58
I've had this conversation before, okay, how willing are we to share the gospel with people
27:07
that we don't have a close relationship with? Like think about, I can invite someone to church,
27:13
you know, it's like, oh, I work with them. They're like, yeah, I just moved here and,
27:17
you know, I have this great church back home. Well, come to my church. It's that simple. Okay.
27:21
The casual acquaintance that you've met, and it's easy to kind of talk to them and try and
27:28
bring them into faith and maybe talk about some of those things.
27:32
Then talk about having those conversations with your father or your brother or your sister or
27:40
your wife when maybe they are not in the same spiritual headspace as you are. And how much more
27:47
difficult that is. And yet we purport to love them. We say, I love this person. And yet you are not
27:55
willing to ensure that through your testimony and through, and through God-saving grace
28:03
that they spend forever with you. How much do you, how much do you love them?
28:11
We've talked about this on this podcast before, but it bears repeating. Penn and Teller, is it Penn,
28:17
who's the atheist? Yes. And he, like, I don't know how many times we've quoted an atheist on this
28:23
podcast, but he said something that really is convicting, and it should be convicting for all
28:29
Christians. How much do you have to hate somebody to not proselytize? If you believe
28:37
that eternity is at stake, and your eternal salvation is the most important thing,
28:42
how much do you have to hate somebody to not preach that to them?
28:45
Yeah, he says, I slipped up the quote that he basically doesn't respect Christians that aren't
28:52
evangelicals. Yeah. And because it's like, why, like, that's a special, oh, yeah, here it is.
28:59
How much do you have to hate somebody to not proselytize? How much do you have to hate someone
29:03
to believe everlasting life is possible and not tell them that? A doth my cap to you, Matt Gressmaire.
29:09
Yeah, but like, dude, that's, that's so legit. Because I met Pendleton before, and like, he's,
29:13
he's a super nice guy, but he's like a militant atheist about it. But like, man, that, that's a,
29:19
that's a gospel call right there for people that even when it's awkward, those are things that you
29:24
need to share with other people. So that's, that's a, that's a really good point in terms of how we
29:28
should, how we should be in reference to other people and how that, how we should, you know,
29:32
comport ourselves in those types of situations. One thing that I wanted to talk about as well
29:37
within this chapter of Nehemiah is the section of verse 16 through 21, this is kind of like, you know,
29:44
rehashing how stupid the Israelites were. And it's like, okay, no matter how stupid they acted,
29:49
God provided God was patient and God was merciful. And you know, if you're one of those people that
29:54
read yourself into the Bible, you're going to read that and be like, I'm not that patient and I'm not
29:58
that merciful. But specifically, I keyed in on verse 21, 40 years you sustained them in the
30:04
wilderness and they lacked nothing. Their clothes did not wear out and their feet did not swell.
30:09
So they lacked nothing. That reminded me of Psalm 3410, the young lions suffer one hunger,
30:16
but those who seek the Lord lack no good thing. That's kind of like a, a direction verse for
30:23
undaunted. But then also Psalm 23, one, the Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want. And
30:29
that that's a big deal for a lot of us because we live everyone at this table and everyone in
30:38
this community lives in relative opulence compared to the rest of the globe. Okay, because even the
30:46
people in our community that would be considered poor, they're not they're poor by, by Oklahoma
30:54
standards are poor by American standards, maybe. But in terms of world standards, it's a level of
31:00
opulence that people in other places around the globe couldn't even possibly fathom.
31:04
And yet we are constantly thinking about the things that we don't have while I won't say we,
31:09
I'll say me, I'm constantly thinking about the things that I don't have the boxes that I don't
31:13
have checked because the funds aren't available or the, the security I've not been able to create
31:18
myself in the insulation I have not been able to create for myself because I haven't done this or
31:22
accomplished that or made it to this level or something like that. And I know a lot of people
31:26
are like that as well. But you look at how God deals with the people that, you know, his chosen
31:32
people with the Israelites, how God dealt with them. He was patient and merciful, but he was also
31:38
provisionary. He provided for them to where they didn't need anything. And I remember when someone
31:42
was talking about on the days where they would gather extra mana, you know, so they would have
31:48
some leftover for the next day, God wouldn't provide as much mana. Like the, like, they, they
31:53
would have to like learn like, no, no, you're gonna have to rely on me every day. Don't save up
31:58
for tomorrow or for later on this week, just in case I don't provide, you just need to have faith
32:03
and watch me provide. And so that was just something I keyed in on is they lacked nothing
32:08
because I mean, that attaches to other things that we see in the Old Testament as well.
32:11
That makes me really uncomfortable. That statement, the CPA and me and the retirement planner,
32:17
I'm over here going, man, this makes me uncomfortable. But it's so true. Like we do try and save up
32:24
our treasures here, knowing that, well, that way I have made, I have made provision for my future.
32:32
And you have no clue. You have no clue. You have no clue what God has planned for you.
32:39
You have no idea what's coming. You have no, you have no idea what's coming next. You
32:43
have no idea if you're going to live tomorrow. You just don't. And we save up treasures here on
32:48
earth thinking that I have a plan. I have a plan. But how often is our plan actually aligned with
32:55
what God wants? And this is also not me saying, please don't save money. Please save money.
33:00
It's so many. Please have insurance.
33:04
Well, that goes that goes back to the, you know, the dichotomy of God is sovereign,
33:10
but we have responsibility. The Nehemiah is just full of those truths.
33:14
God's going to build the wall back up because he's God. He can do whatever he wants. But
33:21
you know, my had a role to play in that and it required work. So yeah, it, yes, God, God will
33:30
sustain us. He fights our battles for us, but we are also called to do work
33:36
and be good providers and use our provisions, how we should use our provisions. Paul has some
33:42
pretty harsh things to say for men who don't provide for their families. Yeah. So I mean,
33:47
God's always going to provide. It's nothing I've ever like kind of worried about. You know,
33:51
there's certain things, you know, like I want to check the boxes, you know, but you know, God's
33:56
going to have everything set out with what he wants to do through my life, through my wife's life,
34:03
through my son's life, through anybody's life. And so may not be my plan. Sometimes I hope our
34:09
plans align, but that's not always the case. Indeed. When I think the another corollary here for
34:16
he, the word sustained sticks out as well. 40 years you sustain them in the wilderness.
34:23
So some people, they're not looking to be sustained. They're looking to thrive. And the
34:28
there are times in your life where you are set up and supposed to thrive. And then there are other
34:35
times in your life where you're just, you need to sustain. And this could be with anything. It
34:39
could be with your, your athleticism, or it could be with your job, or it could be with your family.
34:44
Like there are times where it's just like, God's maybe intentionally trying to slow you down a
34:49
little bit because he's trying to show you something else. Like as, you know, again, this is months
34:53
down the road by the time you're hearing this, but like right now, I'm in between vocal cord
34:57
surgeries. And it's like every now and then I'll get them, you know, I get a lot of encouraging
35:01
messages, you know, online and DMs and stuff like that. But every now and then it's like,
35:04
man, I can't wait for you to realize what God's doing to you right now. Like no one knows exactly
35:10
what's happening right now. But there's a reason why you can't use your voice the way you want to
35:14
be right now. Like it's not just an accident. And like there are things in your life and I hate
35:19
being like the cookie cutter like, Oh, God's going to use it. Don't worry. Because it's like,
35:23
when you're in the middle of it, you're worried, man, like it's it's all you can worry about. And
35:27
you know, it's kind of like, you know, what is that? It's in Mark, Mark nine, where it's like,
35:32
I believe helped my unbelief. Man, I struggle with that. And I've heard that that explained
35:37
by pastors and sermons for years. And it still doesn't make sense to me. It's kind of the same
35:42
thing. Like I always, I always relate to the older brother and the prodigal son story. Like,
35:49
I'm like, screw that stupid little kid. And like, and so I kind of have to fight that. But that's
35:54
one thing to where it's like, you know, that now is just the time for sustenance. Let me sustain
36:00
you in this moment. I'm setting you up for something else. And that's not me being self-aggrandizing.
36:04
Like, I am so special guys that God decided to allow Satan to attack my voice so that I'd have to
36:10
take a few months of doing things more slowly. But it's like, we all have those moments,
36:15
micro or macro, where it's like, we're being sustained for something else later, where we're
36:19
going to have to be able to run a whole lot faster. It's also you putting your faith in,
36:24
I'm not saying your faith's not there. It's just like, I think we all want to see
36:30
your voice get better. And you'd be happy when you talk and not come to church and to sit there
36:36
quietly and quietly and quietly and quietly. It's like, oh man, I don't know if they got in a fight
36:42
or he just can't talk today. But the thing is, is like, you know, putting your faith is there,
36:51
but in God's timing, God will prevail, you know, and we just don't know when that timing is.
36:57
I think all of this has to be put in light of eternity. And you talk about Kyle's voice,
37:05
you talk about cancer, you talk about whatever the drug addict, the drug addict who is a successful
37:11
businessman, but it's Norton lines of cocaine. That's nobody here, just so everybody knows.
37:16
Sometimes God takes away everything and he ends up in a gutter. He lost his wife, he lost his job,
37:24
he lost everything. But if you look at that in light of salvation, if he comes on the other side
37:30
clothed in Christ righteousness, I'll take that every day. Well, sometimes healing isn't on the
37:38
side of eternity. So I think, I think when you when you spend time in prayer, and you know,
37:45
these big decision, these big decision points come, I know whenever I took, you know, the step of
37:51
leaving my previous firm and coming to this new one and becoming a partner, somebody who just was
37:56
like, man, it's it's so great. Like, you know, I can't, you know, it's good. What a great opportunity
38:01
for you, you're going to be whatever. And I remember them kind of just saying like, you know,
38:06
hey, see how God's plan works out. It's like, Oh, I don't know how this is going to end.
38:11
I have no idea how this is going to end. I said either one or two things is going to happen. I
38:15
said either I am going to build something special for his kingdom, which is my fervent hope. Okay,
38:20
I spend time in prayer and asking for that every day. Help me build something great for your kingdom.
38:26
But on the flip side of that, I want your will to be done. So if that means I need to fall
38:32
completely on my face and humble myself to the point that I have nowhere to turn but you,
38:39
because I have not put you in that space where you belong. That's what I want.
38:45
Like humble me to that level. So if that means I have abject failure, you know, mud on my face,
38:52
no one's talking to me. I can turn nowhere true, true embarrassment. Humble me in that way if that's
38:59
what I need. And that's hard. What a bold prayer. Oh, that's a scary one. It is a scary part. Well,
39:05
well, I'll actually let you talk about it. Because I think it relates to verse 29 when we were talking
39:11
before we started recording. There's there's a coral area with what you were just talking about
39:14
and what we see here in verse 29. So how about you read that and then flow? Sure. And you warned
39:18
them in order to turn them back to your law, yet they acted presumptuously and did not obey your
39:23
commandments, but send against your rules, which if a person does them, he shall live by them.
39:28
And they turned a stubborn shoulder and stiffened their neck and would not obey. So every time
39:37
I have this, I have this never ending debate with especially a lot of non-Christians,
39:44
loving God, how would he send you to hell, right? How could he send you to hell? How do bad things
39:50
happen to good people? Number one, we're not good. There was only one good person who ever lived on
39:56
this earth and he was crucified. Just one. So the idea here is if you have decided,
40:08
you have decided that a certain sin is okay. If you've bargained in this way and created this
40:16
whole cloth theology, if you've decided to go that route, God will let you. He will give you over to
40:23
it. I just finished The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis. Fantastic book. And it's literally,
40:30
you look at the Richmond and Lazarus parable, where Lazarus is a sin is up in heaven with an angel,
40:38
and he's looking down and his master, who he served, is descending into hell, and he's not
40:44
repentant. He's not asking for forgiveness. He's not craving God in that moment. He is craving Lazarus
40:51
to come down and serve him as if he is entitled to it. To me, the entire book of The Great Divorce,
40:59
C.S. Lewis is essentially a parable. It's it's they're all allegories to that single story,
41:04
that parable that Jesus told of the rich man and Lazarus. And so I look at it as,
41:10
how much can you actually decide? I am giving this over to God. I am going to repent. He already
41:18
knows what you're dealing with. And yet we cling to it. It's like, I'm going to hide this away. I
41:23
know, you know, you'll prayer for for you. You know, I know that, you know, people who struggle with
41:29
pornography. Okay, you soften the prayer. You'll soften the prayer. It's like, well, I'm just
41:35
forgive me for my lust. It's like, no, confess what you did. Confess what you did. Confess what you're
41:42
doing. Like, you need to take accountability for it. Because one day when you die and you are in
41:51
heaven, if you have compromised to this point, God will not cast you into hell necessarily.
41:57
What God will do is say, if this is what you want, I'm going to give it to you.
42:02
So I look at again, there's a whole bunch of stories in the C.S. Lewis book, and some of them
42:09
are super convicting, because there's things that you just love as a possession, as a material
42:15
possession, as opposed to a Christ like love for those you love, or the performative grief
42:22
and performative sacrifice that you're doing. It's like, it's not your heart's not in the right
42:26
place, but I'm acting out in theater almost like, look how, you know, it's performative martyrdom.
42:33
Look how much I'm giving to you, you know, trying to basically make others feel guilty. I think that
42:41
it's a really great book. And I like Terry Fakes always says, don't let C.S. Lewis be your theology,
42:47
but he can definitely inform it. But it is good advice, but at the same time, like I said, it is
42:54
a very good informative book as to how sin can actually impact you in eternity, not necessarily
43:01
just on earth. Man, that's a powerful Jesus talks about that Lord Lord. We did all of these
43:08
things we prophesied in your name. And he says, I never knew you. Yeah, man. What about the rich
43:16
young ruler who fulfilled everything? He said, fine, give everything that you have and come follow
43:21
me. And he's like, can't do it. Yeah, you walked away. He said, no, no, thanks. Got out what he
43:26
truly loved more. Yeah, the married couple who said I gave everything. I sold everything and
43:31
you've got it all. Yep. No, you don't. Peter, Peter called about in a nice and Sephira. That's
43:37
right. I get it right. You did, Joey. I hope you heard that. Watch out, Joey. We're starting
43:43
to get smart over here. I got I got my mojo back, Joey. Oh, man. Well, I think that's at the end of
43:50
verse 29 as well. They turned a stubborn shoulder and stiffened their neck and would not obey.
43:56
So it's not just that. I mean, those are those are choices, right? They chose not to do those things.
44:04
And when we choose the sin, we don't look at ourselves as a stubborn child. Like we don't look
44:10
at ourselves as like the seven year old that just will not do it. Why? Because words like they just
44:15
they can't like they can't give you an argument as to why they're not going to do it. They're just
44:19
not going to do it. And there's not anything that you can do about it. And so I just wonder
44:25
whenever I look at God, because I mean, earlier in Nehemiah 9, it's just like, and God was patient,
44:30
and God was patient, and God was patient, and God was patient. But his will is going to be done. His
44:35
his ability to control circumstances and situations is beyond our understanding of
44:46
circumstances and situations, like we can't even fathom it. And so it's just interesting that when
44:51
we do this stubborn stiffening of our of our neck and the stubborn shoulder that we turn to him,
44:57
it's just like we know what that's like as a parent. And we don't we look at our kids almost
45:02
like sometimes it's comical. Sometimes it's just like, you rotten, you realize I could drown you
45:07
in bathtub like and you wouldn't be able to do anything. Sorry, that got a little morbid, but it's
45:10
talking about my car. But yeah, but it's like the but but that that's the thing is like we look at
45:15
it like we are in so we're not in control. Like in any control that a kid has, it's an illusion
45:22
by when compared to their parents. And it's the same thing for us and God.
45:25
But the fact that God is patient is just it's such a powerful thing to think about how much love
45:31
he has for us. We're in Nehemiah. It's the Old Testament. I've been told by reliable sources
45:36
quote-unquote that there's two gods. There's a wrathful vengeful God in the Old Testament and
45:42
then the God in the New Testament is all love. But this is Nehemiah 400 years before Christ talking
45:47
about in history how God has been patient and I think God. Oh, sorry. Just God. God looks at his
45:54
people and he looks at us and he is patient. And if you don't believe that, just read Genesis.
46:01
The just thing to do to Adam and Eve was to you're gone. You disobeyed me. You're dead. And he said,
46:07
no, not only will I not will you not die today. The Savior of the world where salvation will come
46:13
will come from your line. Like God is patient. I think I like the old quote. There are two great
46:21
tragedies in this life. One is not getting what you want and the other is getting it.
46:25
I like the idea here, like the stiffening of the neck and we're not going to obey.
46:31
How often people will say, well, I'm going to follow my dream. Your dream may not be God's plan.
46:37
Do not work against God. Pray. Ask him. Have him guide you that the problem, I think,
46:46
you know, to to my story earlier, I don't know what he's got playing for me. He's either going
46:52
to humble me or let me build something great for his kingdom. Okay, I can't wait to see what it is
46:57
and I will be grateful when it comes. But if God decides this is not what he wants me to do,
47:02
I would be foolish to stiffen my neck and to say, no, I'm going to fight through you, God.
47:09
That's impossible. That's just not going to happen because his plan is going to rule out
47:14
and he's patient. So I can even sit here and go, you know what? I'm fighting through this.
47:19
I'm going to move past it. And suddenly I start seeing, hey, I'm making some headway.
47:23
I'm making progress. Things are actually going to work out. And then the rug can get pulled
47:28
right back from back out from under me. God's patient. I'll get he'll get to his plan in time.
47:34
At some point, you will turn back to him. You won't have a choice.
47:39
I think it's funny to look at if you yet they acted presumptuously and did not obey your
47:44
commandments, but sinned against your rules, which if a person does them, he shall live by them.
47:50
I feel like in society now, we're seeing a lot of people identify and they're sin nature.
47:55
And like even in even in Christendom, you know, it's like, you know, oh, I'm a, you know,
48:03
I'm a gay Christian or, you know, I'm an Enneagram seven. I'm an Enneagram seven Christian or, you
48:13
know, something, something that's there's always blank in Christian. It's like, all right. So now
48:18
we're just like talking about our sin, you know, like, you know, all right, back in college,
48:23
I was a masturbating porn addict Christian, you know, like, no, we like, we need to find our
48:29
identity, not into our sin nature, but find our identity in Christ and find our identity in God
48:35
and God's in God's holiness. And so I just feel like when we do that, we're stiffening our necks.
48:41
We're saying like, Hey, this is me, but this is also me. But that if you notice, it's always at
48:46
the tail end. Well, you're not like a Christian something. You're blank Christian.
48:50
When we're doing it as qualifiers. And so I love what Vodie Bockham said whenever he was
48:55
basically calling out pastors that talked about home and sexuality. And he was like,
48:58
well, you pastors, you're, your sermon dies in death of a thousand qualifications before you get to
49:04
the point. They'll say things like, you know, we're talking about homosexuality today. And I just
49:08
don't want anyone to feel condemned today. And we have homosexuals here at this church. And we love
49:13
them. And I have a homosexual friends and I have homosexual families. And we love them. We don't
49:17
want them to feel condemned. And then everything they say after that, it's just like they're, it's
49:20
like taking a little bit of the sting, a little bit of the sting, a little bit of the sting out of it.
49:24
And so when we say I'm a gay Christian, or I'm a even put your race, I'm a black Christian. I'm a
49:29
Latinx Christian. I'm a whatever that that thing is. Or when you're saying, and I said Enneagram,
49:35
obviously saying that I'm a gay Christian is not in the same category as quoting your Enneagram
49:39
score. But I've heard Christians, because you know, Christians have just been like wooed by the
49:43
Enneagram, even though it has like pagan occultic origins, they've been completely wooed and romance
49:48
by it. And the problem is they'll say, Oh, you know, I'd be better at that. But I'm an Enneagram eight.
49:53
It's like no, it becomes a crutch. There is a danger on both sides of the ledger. We can give
49:59
too much grace, but we can also give too much truth. That's why the whole gospel should be preached
50:04
and not watered down on either side. But I had a point, and you were talking about Vodibacham,
50:11
what were you saying? Oh, yeah, put, put any other that goes to how we put levels on sin,
50:17
like put any other sin. You know, I know a lot of people who are disrespectful to their parents,
50:23
or I know a lot of people who made the point about pedophiles. Imagine doing it with pedophilia.
50:27
He's like, Yeah, I know a lot of pedophiles and I love pedophiles and I got pedophiles.
50:30
Okay. Yeah. It's like you wouldn't people would be okay with that.
50:34
Replace it. Where are they? That either sounds really silly talking. I know a lot of gossipers
50:40
or I know a lot of yeah, either sounds silly or you go, whoa, yeah, I've, I like to use the phrase,
50:48
things of God don't need an adjective. Like truth doesn't need a my truth. Justice doesn't need a
50:55
social justice. You know, Christian doesn't need an active adjective. I mean, I don't need to know
51:03
what you are. I need to know that I mean, I want to know that you're a Christian. And if you're not,
51:07
I want to know how I can help you get there. That's it. And I think the, the idea that I need to
51:14
identify is something else other than a Christ follower in any way, shape, fashion, or form.
51:19
If I am a Christian, why? What's the point? And I think that's a question that you have to ask
51:25
yourself. That's the Jesus plus gospel. Jesus plus nothing. No, but it is Jesus plus mindset.
51:31
I need nothing else. You know, like, if you were going to ask me, like, what's the one word that
51:38
you would use to describe yourself? I would be a Christian. And I hope you would see that.
51:44
That's it. There's nothing else I need to add to it because there's nothing that I could
51:49
add to it that would make it any better than what it already is. I think people want to
51:54
sweeten it though. Yeah. That's what when we were going through what we were going through
51:58
first Timothy, it's like there that's where the gospel plus thing comes from to where it's like,
52:02
okay, the gospel is so sweet. But God, it's got to be, it's got to be sweeter than that. Again,
52:07
another voting bacham example, he was talking about how he was walking his son through a
52:12
strawberry field and his son was eating strawberries. But then when they left the strawberry field,
52:16
he started feeding his son, you know, things that were artificially sweetened to taste like
52:19
strawberries. So strawberry pop tower, strawberry slushy, strawberry soda. And the sun got so used
52:25
to that that whenever he went back and had a strawberry, the strawberry didn't taste sweet anymore.
52:30
And so he had been romanced and basically consumed by the artificial sweetener, by the fake,
52:37
that when he got to the real thing, it didn't seem sweet anymore. And that's the thing is when
52:41
you try to add to the gospel, like what you're doing is you're not you're not adding you're not
52:47
adding anything to it. All you're doing is you're making a copy of a copy of a copy. And then
52:52
eventually the picture will become such that you can't even recognize it. When I think there's also
52:57
it's not just the add to the gospel. I think there's also the subtracting from it to sweeten it up.
53:02
You know, it is talk about this part because it's going to be too condemn.
53:05
Yeah, but it's so easy. It is so, so easy because, you know, everybody's like, well, my God
53:13
is a God of love. My God's a God of love. Okay. Do not take the lion out of Judah. Okay.
53:22
Jesus, I mean, it's like, okay, I recognize that he's talking to the sinners and he's being very
53:29
kind and very sweet. But look at how he's talking to the Pharisees. Jesus found some
53:35
things unacceptable. And yet are we compromising? And I think that this is, it's so, it's so easy
53:43
to just cherry pick. You know, we used to, you know, in the Catholic thing, we would call it
53:49
cafeteria Catholics. It's like, I'll take some of this. Oh, yeah. I don't want to eat my broccoli.
53:53
You know, so, yes, the gospel message is very sweet, but there's some broccoli in there.
53:59
It's bitter. It can be bittersweet. It's again, it's the best news and the worst news. Does it
54:05
make you realize who you actually are? That facade is now taken down. And that is terrifying
54:11
for a lot of people. And my Jesus, my Jesus doesn't see me that way. Not my Jesus. Yeah, when we,
54:17
you know, when we try to say that, my God, my Jesus loves me. But what, again, what standard,
54:24
what definition of love are you using? Because if you're using the Bible's definition of love,
54:28
then we got to talk. I think that's the thing is we never, we will never understand God's love
54:35
and God's justice, because we're human. Our brains can't even fathom what is true justice,
54:42
but we want to pretend like we do. I think that's absolutely true. And I mean,
54:45
that I got into a dust up last year with a guy. I can't remember his name about his book. And
54:49
he just kept talking about, well, when people hear about my Jesus and blah, blah, blah, they're
54:53
never turned off. And I was like, wait a minute. He was like, Ryan, Ryan, something. Yeah. And so
54:59
it was like, it was just kind of like, well, are you sure you're showing him Jesus then?
55:03
Because Jesus made people so mad by the words that he said that they pushed him out to like,
55:10
the edge of a cliff. And you almost pushed him over. And then they eventually like,
55:15
they got him and they crucified him. And it's like, if his words aren't biting to you,
55:19
maybe you're not reading them. If you're God, if your God is wrong, it's wrong. It doesn't.
55:25
It's not your God. And I mean, he even talks here in Nehemiah nine, or talks about the golden calf.
55:30
They worshiped the golden calf as God. This is the God who brought us out of Egypt and fed us
55:36
and fortified us and sustained us in the wilderness. Like, that's incorrect.
55:41
Well, even again, we live in an era where even saying incorrect or something like that becomes
55:47
an issue. And so again, that's all like, again, that's why I wanted to make the point at the beginning
55:50
here, or at the beginning of this episode, rather that this 2500 years ago, and it's like, we're
55:55
dealing with the same thing. We have the same attitudes and we have the same just propensity to
56:01
want to add to things to sprinkle things on top to make them better. But guys, go ahead.
56:05
I was going to say one more point going back to your point, Ryan, of the revival.
56:08
How do you know this will be here? How do you know you're going to actually experience the
56:12
revival that I think all of us are hoping comes is that so many of the structure, so many of the
56:18
human rules and things that we have put up, we are finally going to look at them and go, man,
56:22
did we mess up? We've made a huge mistake. Right. And I just want to go back to our golden calf.
56:30
Like you like from 2500 years, nothing's ever changed. And it's true. The only thing that
56:36
changes is who are golden calf is. And right now in our society, it's ourselves. It's my truth.
56:42
It's my, my, my, that is our golden calf. It's not God, God, God. It's me, me. And imagine if
56:48
the golden calf could tell everyone, Hey, I need to be, I need to be worshiped and I need to be
56:54
verified and I need to be, you know, held up in esteem. Because that's what we're doing now is like,
56:59
we're creating these identities for ourselves. And then we're demanding that the public tell us
57:05
that we're justified in these feelings and that, you know, we should, you know, you should
57:09
act. We ask to what I want. It's not even the public. It's the church now. Sure. And that's like,
57:14
you know, I hate getting on churches again. But the church, the church is doing that. Well,
57:19
we're building church towards people with that pragmatic approach rather than towards the worship
57:23
of God. We're giving them that feeling that it's about you. When you let, when you let water in the
57:28
boat and you keep letting water in the boat to use Steve Lawson's analogy, eventually,
57:34
that boat is going to continue to sink until you're not in the boat anymore. You're just in the
57:39
water. And that's a problem for us is a lot of churches are working backwards. They want to be
57:44
in the water and to just be a part of the water when it's like, you were never called to be that,
57:49
you're called to be salt and light. And if salt loses saltiness, it's no longer a preservative.
57:53
It's basically worth nothing. And so there's so much more that we could talk about with Nehemiah
57:57
nine, but we're going to have to leave it there. But guys, make sure you come back next Sunday,
58:01
where we're going to dig into Nehemiah 10. So make sure you read up through Nehemiah 10. So you're
58:05
prepared for next week. But before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost.
58:08
Add on Dante life, our mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges,
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I'm your host Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual,
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