THE FORGING TABLE | Matthew 5 (Ep. 516)

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1:18 This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host Kyle Thompson.

1:23 Let's get into it.

1:24 Welcome back to the forging table. The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping

1:28 men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience.

1:32 At the forging table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience

1:36 by digging into God's word and we're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with us.

1:39 That's Derek, that's Winkler, that's Horn.

1:41 Here's the thing, guys. We just got through saying this.

1:43 Off-air, Matthew 5, if you were a pastor, you could exege Matthew 5 for a calendar year.

1:51 As I told you whenever we told you we were going into Matthew,

1:56 we are ending our study of Matthew on the forging table on Easter 2024.

2:00 While it would be probably prudent to stretch this conversation out,

2:06 we're just going to dig in and do our best.

2:07 We're going to try to give you about an hour's worth of content on this,

2:10 but my encouragement to all of you would be to spend this next week before we move on to Matthew 6,

2:15 really digging into what's here because there's so much here. I mean, you just hear people mention

2:20 the beatitudes. That's here. You mentioned the redefinition of lesson anger. That's here.

2:24 You mentioned the fulfillment of the law. That's here, salt and light, the lamp onto the world,

2:29 like all that is in Matthew 5. We're just going to go ahead and dig right in.

2:33 So I want to read just the first verse. Seeing the crowds, he went up on a mountain and when he sat

2:39 down, his disciples came to him. And so the sermon of the Mount, this is the beginning of it. It goes

2:44 through the end of chapter 7 of Matthew. So he goes up on the mountain, just like Moses did,

2:49 to deliver a message to his people. And he sat down to deliver this message,

2:54 but then we get into the beatitudes. So Derek, if you can read two through nine,

3:00 we're going to kind of break the beatitudes up a little bit, but go and read two through nine.

3:02 And he opened his mouth and taught them saying, "Let's sit are the poor in spirit,

3:08 for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

3:12 Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst

3:18 for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied. Blessed are the merciful, for they shall have mercy,

3:23 receive mercy." Sorry, Joby. "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

3:28 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God."

3:32 It just makes me laugh every time we say sorry, Joby, because I know he's laughing at us as well

3:36 and with us sort of. A few things I wanted to point out, what would probably be best guys,

3:40 we didn't really talk about this, but if there's one that kind of sticks out to you here,

3:44 we can kind of go over that before we move on. But yeah, I mean, for each of us, kind of one,

3:50 as we move on. But the one thing I did want to point out from the beginning is, "Blessed,

3:55 that is basically indicative of a deep joy." So it is of, it provides deep joy to fill in the

4:03 blank. So those that are poor in spirit, or those who mourn, or those who are meek. I do want to make

4:07 sure that we talk about meekness, but in this first chunk here, is there one for you individually

4:12 that sticks out again to the audience? We're just going to do our best here because there's so much

4:16 in this chapter. We would love to dig into all of them, but we're just going to dig in here and there.

4:20 I like how you brought up Blessed because it's a term that's a capier fortunate is how I looked at

4:24 it, blissful, but the ones that really stick out to me are the first two. Blessed are the poor in

4:30 spirit. For theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Is he talking about the poor? That's what I used to

4:36 hear all the time is like, well, he's talking about poor people and it's like, he's talking

4:40 about blessing poor people. And I'm like, no, when we look at blessed, we're looking at how happy

4:44 and fortunate are the poor in spirit because what they're going to find is they're going to find

4:48 the kingdom of heaven. They're going to find God. They're going to find someone who realizes their

4:52 wretchedness and spirituality. And they're, they're, and they're, they humble themselves to, you know,

5:00 they're, they're sinful. I would say narrative or how they're living simply. And then the kingdom

5:05 of heaven is provided this grace. So it's like finding that you are not this person that you think

5:12 that you are and that there's a God out there that's going to save you. And then blessed are those who

5:16 mourn for they shall be comforted. So when I find out what my sin is, and I know that I'm a sinful

5:22 person and I'm wretched. And what that is is I mourn my, I mourn that. I'm like, oh, man, how

5:27 did I live my life that way? Why did I, why was I so selfish? You know, how come I didn't put God

5:32 first? And so now I mourn that. But then I know through that, that I'll be comforted knowing that

5:37 Christ is the person who stands before me in front of God to show, you know, the salvation that I do

5:44 happen and to be that, that cup.

5:46 Yeah, I think that mourning one was is very, you know, it's misinterpreted a lot. I think when you

5:53 talk about mourning, it is that spiritual, the emotional and financial loss, even that comes from

6:02 sin. It's the, it's not the law. Like if you follow Jesus and that costs you something that's not

6:10 mourning that you're not mourning that loss, that should be you should have a gratitude for that loss.

6:16 The, but the flip side of that coin is yeah, I've sinned. I've done something, you know, I,

6:22 this did not happen. So Stacy, this is, I'm just, this is an, this is just an example. I cheated on

6:29 my wife. I've lost half my stuff. Right. I should not be that I'm mourning my financial loss, but I

6:36 recognize that I'm going through a divorce because I cheated on my wife. It's my sin. I'm mourning

6:43 that loss. And I confess my sin because I should be poor in spirit at that point.

6:48 But you think mourning your, your sin is more of like a true repentance. In the fact that like,

6:54 let's say I live a life outside of what is biblically, you know, biblical sexuality. And I, if I want

7:02 to go ahead and keep living my life and what is our, you know, antithetical of biblical sexuality,

7:08 have I truly mourn the sin of my repentance? And no, I haven't. I'm still going down the path that

7:14 I've gone. So we're talking about, you know, mourning, you know, who we were before Christ.

7:19 And now that through him, we know that there's forgiveness and there's salvation. And that is

7:23 what comforts us. Bear County, I think, I think it's, I don't have to funny as the right word,

7:31 but it's kind of like blessed it are the more and blessed are those who mourn. It's like happy

7:35 are the sad. Yeah. And then I also wrote down yet with kind of like what Ryan's saying,

7:40 I'm mourning over my sins, but I'm rejoicing or I'm happy that I'm forgiven.

7:45 I'll also say the peacemakers, blessed be the peacemakers.

7:49 It's people who are promoting the messianic piece. This is, I wrote down here,

7:57 Neville Chamberlain tried to be a peacemaker. I don't think it really well for him. I mean,

8:02 I wouldn't say that blessed be Neville Chamberlain because he tried to make peace with Hitler.

8:06 This is a discipleship call the peacemakers. It's, I'm going out and I am discipling others,

8:15 bringing them to Jesus where peace can be found. So you are a peacemaker at that point.

8:20 Awesome. Go ahead. I also like blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,

8:26 for they shall be satisfied. And like as a, as a believer, like we want to thirst for righteousness,

8:32 you know, God, God's law is beautiful. When we talk about Christ, we talk about Christ came to

8:39 fulfill that, you know, we'll talk about this later in the chapter about fulfilling the law,

8:42 the ceremonial law, but the God's law and what it is and who God is and his, and his, and his perfect,

8:48 and his perfectiveness, you know, and perfect in who he is. Like, that's what we should seek,

8:55 you know, we should seek that righteousness. And then when we do, we will be satisfied

9:00 because if we're seeking what the world has to give us and we're seeking what we think, you know,

9:04 we need to give us what we want, you know, and what the world can give us. We're not going to find

9:11 satisfaction in that. We always find satisfaction who God is and his perfect plan. Right. And then

9:18 in verse five, I love talking about blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth.

9:23 Again, Jordan Peterson basically taught Christians that have been Christians for a long time. What

9:28 meekness means here, meekness is that you're submitted to the will of the father, but you have

9:34 so supreme self control, but you're also very capable. That's the thing is most people think,

9:39 oh, it's virtuous to be weak. No, because as Jordan Peterson, a lot of people have rightly

9:44 pointed out a weak man is not a useful man. A weak man is a useless man, because it's not virtuous

9:49 if you're weak by default, that that's not virtuous because you are incapable of anything other than

9:54 weakness. Right. And so, but the there's the difference between the person that's very capable,

9:59 that's always looking to use it. The person that is very physically capable, violently capable,

10:04 and they're always looking for an opportunity to prove that to somebody. As opposed to the person

10:08 that is capable of that type of violence, it's as has been pointed out, it's like having a sword

10:12 knowing how to use it, but leaving it sheathed. And so that's the thing that I think is important

10:16 there that most people read is blessed are the meek, and they think they need to be a navelgazer

10:20 now that they need to, you know, no, please, after you, and they need to constantly have

10:23 their shoulders slumped forward. And oh, no, it's not about me. It's about you. And that's just not

10:28 really what that part of it means. I mean, the beatitudes themselves are literally,

10:31 I mean, you could read through these. This is, I mean, Jesus is kind of describing himself here,

10:36 no. And would anybody describe Jesus as meek? Yeah. Well, I think the problem is, is there are

10:42 people that would certainly do that because they're not reading the scripture in their totality,

10:46 they're reading Jesus's words without personality. They think his description of clearing the temple,

10:51 which we see evidence that that happened twice, not just once once at the beginning of his ministry,

10:54 once at the end of his ministry, that oh, that wasn't really like aggression. It was more like

10:59 an expression of something they just get into these mental gymnastics. It's like, no, he saw what was

11:05 happening. He left, he made a whip, he came back, and he drove out the animals and the people. It was

11:11 a violent act that Jesus did. And so when people are saying, you know, what would Jesus do on the

11:16 menu of options is something like that. And then you'll have other people was like, well,

11:20 Jesus did that. He didn't tell us disciples to do that. Again, people want to just wrap themselves

11:25 up into, you know, all these, you know, theological, you know, pretzels, but it's just like at the

11:31 end of the day, righteous aggression and violence is not, and we'll see later on in this chapter,

11:36 like violence in and of itself isn't bad. It's how it's used. We talked about it last week. He's

11:40 fully God and fully man. What about the Old Testament God would make you think he's meek? Yeah.

11:47 What would make you think that that kind of righteous anger would not be on the menu of options?

11:53 I, I, I, I'm like, you were reading different scripture than I am. But I think one thing that

11:57 we look at with the Beatitudes is I think MacArthur said it best. He says it shows a heavenly blessing,

12:02 a heavenly happiness that's opposite of the world, worldly path for happiness.

12:09 Put the mic in your face that you have done this way too often. I pulled a robber to violate the

12:16 microphone. Was a robber doing this last time. Robert's got the strongest, silkiest voice,

12:19 but whenever you're back here talking like this, which are voices, but my nose is a little

12:24 running somewhere. That's okay. Just not right into the microphone, but again, guys, or go ahead,

12:28 right? But yeah, just like if you look at it, you look at the Beatitudes, it's the opposite

12:33 of what earthly happiness is. Well, and the other thing I will say, I think it would be easy. I mean,

12:39 we're talking them in. I think it's easy to look at these. And if you don't really understand them

12:44 as a man to read through these and goes, I, this isn't me. I can't do this. I'm, I consider myself

12:52 to be strong. I don't want to be me. I don't, you know, my peacemaking or my mercy would only

12:59 extend so far, you know, and it, I think that it does get in the way a little bit. But again,

13:05 it goes back to how much are you diving in and truly understanding what he's saying here?

13:11 Yeah. I mean, reading this and then like reading it back when I was like at a church that didn't

13:18 really like, how do you want to say it really pushed what the Beatitudes really were? Like,

13:24 I looked at this as like almost a social contract, like, let's sort of the poor in spirit. And so

13:28 it's like, oh, we need to figure out ways to bless the poor. And then blessed are those who mourn,

13:32 like you need to mourn with your brothers. Like that's what they mean by mourn. Like, you know,

13:37 when something bad happens, when you mourn, when you mourn with your brothers, that you'll

13:41 be comforted by that. I think there's actually something up with my microphone because I'm talking

13:45 directly into it and I'm hearing it. So it's because your voice is coming up and it's coming down.

13:50 That's my matching up. And it's yeah, you're doing your matching right now. So try to be

13:53 consistent and not like on the, I literally almost drew a roller coaster, just to do a no.

13:58 You're not David. We'll see how it goes. You are not David. All right. Hey,

14:02 Winkler, read 10, 11 and 12. Okay. Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness

14:09 snake for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when others revile you and

14:14 persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad

14:20 for your reward is great in heaven for they for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

14:26 So the distinction that I think is important here is when people are persecuting you

14:31 because they are doing these things falsely. Okay. There are people that think they're

14:37 being persecuted that they just suck. They're like, Oh, I'm being persecuted in my friend

14:42 group or at work or at school. And it's like, you might just be about your job. You might just be

14:46 a bad student. Like, but if somebody is giving a false witness as to who you are as a person,

14:52 it's because you're a Christian. That's what's being talked about here. If you're persecuted

14:56 for righteousness sake. And so that that's the difference that I wanted to kind of draw a line

15:00 for people's. It's like, look, this is not indicative of every time you feel bad or have negative

15:05 feelings, you know, going through your head that you're necessarily feeling persecution.

15:09 Again, people will leave a sly comment on your Facebook post where you had a scripture and you're

15:15 like, Oh, I'm being persecuted. It's like, no, like this is we're not even talking about these

15:20 categorically the same. I thought you were leaning in. I thought you were getting after it. Go ahead.

15:25 You were reading. That's okay. But I mean, in terms of how that goes, that's a very,

15:28 very important thing for us to realize is you could be going through stuff right now. And

15:32 it could be problems of your own making. Not every negative thing that happens in your life is coming

15:37 from Satan. Like some of those things are you're doing. And some of the times you are the one that's

15:41 keeping blessings from coming to your own self. Some of that is punishment for your sin. I mean,

15:46 yeah, it's look, we, we, we are, we are saved from our sin through the grace of God, but

15:54 it doesn't know. Where does it say that? Yeah. And by the way, your punishment goes like, you're

15:59 not going to bear any of the consequences of that while you're on earth. You're not, you're not

16:03 completely absolved of it. It's still just justice still applies. So some of those things that you

16:08 could be good going through. It's like, yeah, God's saying that you're going to have to live this

16:12 out. This is a consequence of your sin. Yeah, and you're not just going to be saved from it,

16:18 because part of it is like you made your bed, you're going to have to lie in it. And you know,

16:23 when people will sin and then they're like, wait, but you're a Christian, you're supposed to forgive

16:26 me. And it's like you can be forgiven and still have consequences. Like you can murder somebody.

16:31 And then the family that of the person that's been murdered can forgive you, but you're still

16:35 going to go to prison, right? Like that you still have wages that that need to be paid. Absolutely.

16:41 So it's not like they're seeking righteousness. You know, I mean, if we're talking about those

16:46 who persecuted for righteousness sake for this is the kingdom of heaven. It's not like they were

16:50 pushing for righteousness. So I think it's a little bit different. Yeah, let's go ahead and hit the

16:58 salt and light. So Ryan, I'm going to give you a test here. You're going to read 13 through 16,

17:02 and you're going to put your face into the microphone and then project your voice through it. That's

17:06 how this technology works is if you talk directly into the top of it, it should work. All right,

17:11 here we go. Right on top. Let's go right on top of it. Let's go like I'm kissing it. Like

17:14 that's okay. Clon back bar. Yeah, on that bar is waiting for you. If you didn't listen last week,

17:21 yeah, no idea what we're talking about. But all right, Matthew five, 13 through 16, being adult.

17:26 All right. Sorry, Joby. Sorry, Joby. You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt has lost its

17:32 taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown

17:38 out and trampled under people's feet. You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be

17:43 hidden nor do the people like nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket. But on a stand

17:50 and it gives light to all of that all to all in the house in the same way, let your light shine

17:55 before others so that they may see your good works and give glory to your father who is in heaven.

18:01 Is your microphone working? It's working, but I have to get like right up on it.

18:04 Right. Right. It's almost like someone told you before we started recording like the first time

18:08 you recorded with us like a year ago that if you talk like right on top of it, it should work.

18:12 I feel like I have to buy it dinner now. Nope. Don't buy it dinner. Don't don't whisper any

18:16 sweet nothings into it unless it's going to be good content. The thing with the salt in my passage

18:21 is to me, feel free to disagree. I feel like this passage is a clear call for Christians to

18:28 influence the world. Absolutely. So we aren't to hide from society and culture, right? Because

18:33 you've heard before, if salt is not salty, it's not a preservative anymore. That's part of its job.

18:37 But also if light is withheld, there will be darkness. So we talked about equipping

18:41 men to be able to push back darkness. Part of pushing back darkness is infusing light, right?

18:46 And so, but the reason why I asked that is because I didn't want to presume anything about you guys

18:51 and how you feel about the scripture. But there are a lot of people that look at this and they

18:54 still kind of go with the Benedict option, which is I'm going to create my own world like outside

18:59 of this. And you know, we're in, I'm not, I'm not dog at home school, just let me make my point.

19:03 It's like, right, because we have homeschoolers here at this table. But it's like, we're going

19:07 to homeschool and we're going to create businesses that are outside of the normal channels. And we're

19:12 going to go to this church that, you know, doesn't do things that the world does. And it's like,

19:15 they think what they're doing is honoring to God. But what they're not doing is being salt.

19:21 They're not preserving the world around them. And they're certainly not speaking into it.

19:24 Because I think people that kind of set themselves up that way, they think, well,

19:28 we're not going to be flamethrowers. We're not going to be prophets, you know, yelling at the

19:32 culture like that's not good. That's not my personality. It's like, that's not what we're

19:34 talking about. It's you were hiding the light that you have from people that need it. So correct me

19:41 where I'm wrong. And you know, soften where it needs to be softened, salt and light. I mean,

19:46 it's kind of interesting. He's using salt and light here. They have, they only are like their

19:53 effects are only felt when they are both distinctive from their environment, but also fully involved

20:00 in it. As an exam, I mean, when you put salt on your food, it doesn't just dissolve into it.

20:06 It sits on it and you can mix it. But it does not, it still sets itself apart.

20:12 But even talking about salt, just not to interrupt. But like, it's a good thing that you're saying

20:16 because even when salt is being made, it's, you know, Jesus is alluding to like the Dead Sea salt,

20:22 we can mix with other things and lose its saltiness. And so not only before, when you put it on

20:28 something to get its taste, it's even got to be, you know, within itself, you're talking about,

20:35 yeah, there's many uses of salt, like in the ancient world, there was the preservative side of it.

20:39 Yeah, there was the dietary element of it. Yep. But then there was also like, it was even used

20:44 for fertilizer for soil. Yeah. And so the disciples are going to enhance the growth of the God in

20:50 the world. That's fertilizer. You're going to provide a God enhanced kingdom seasoning to this

20:56 world with their presence. That's the dietary side. And then you look at they're going to

21:01 how they would influence the influence they would have on the moral decay of the fallen world.

21:07 That's the preservative side. So Jesus is literally putting all of that. I do like,

21:12 there was a quote I got from Pliny who said there's nothing more useful than salt and sunshine.

21:17 That's what Eric, what say you?

21:22 We're just going to keep teeing you up the whole time. Yeah, I guess so.

21:25 Well, I guess my question for you would literally be is as we said and kind of poke fun at,

21:33 you are more of a slow processor. You're not like the social butterfly, like you're nice when

21:38 people get to know you, they like you. But it's like when you see something like this,

21:42 for someone who's not wired to just talk to anybody like the other three people at the table,

21:47 how does something like salt and light apply to you? Because it's like you have a different

21:51 approach than we do. Yeah, I mean, for me, I guess it's trying to be set apart at my job or just to be

22:00 different. I'm building relationships, trying to not be in the world, but be in the groups,

22:07 be involved, but have something different. I can build a relationship with these guys

22:14 and then lead them this way. So maybe more of a slow cooker smoker type, I'm not searing.

22:22 So you're participating in light with them in life with them, but you're not doing all the

22:28 things that they're doing. Right. And so I think that that's good for people out there that are

22:33 more so like that, because it's easy to point at the person that has kind of that magnetic

22:37 personality that's constantly moving and shaking people and challenging people and be like,

22:41 Hey, that that guy's being salt. It's like, but they're behind the scenes, folks that are being

22:46 salt as well. It's just not there's not bright blinking neon signs on their lights. You know,

22:51 I mean, like, because again, the lamps at this time, they didn't put off a whole lot of light.

22:55 Like these weren't, you know, modern in any way, shape or form. And so but it was just enough

23:00 light. And I'm reminded, I think it was in the songs or the it's a the word is a lamp unto my

23:03 feet when we want it to be a flood light. Like, but it's a lamp that just it shows you just barely

23:10 enough to where you can get to that next rock. Right. Right. And we want to see five, six,

23:14 10, 100, you know, stones in front of us, kind of where exactly are we going? And we'll get more

23:20 into that in Matthew as well. But within the saltiness, like, if you look at today's pragmatic

23:26 approach to Christianity, I feel like we're losing that, that preserving form of our salt,

23:31 and that that being scripture. And we're putting on a light that is not the true light that God

23:38 wants. And I think that's something that we've got to look at is that what kind of saltiness

23:42 are we bringing? Are we bringing a saltiness to preserve who we are and preserve what scripture

23:47 is and that's as Christians? Are we bringing a salt that's like, Hey, you know what, this might

23:52 taste good to you. I want to find what tastes good to all these people to bring them in. And then,

23:57 you know, maybe I can shine a light like I think one of the things I think about that is like,

24:02 well, you always hear the people like, well, if they brought one person to Christ, was it worth it?

24:06 You know, it's like, like I could walk into a strip club and bring one person to Christ about

24:11 the five lap dances before it, you know, like, is that okay? You know, I'm like, no, I mean,

24:17 we've got to see, you know, and I've said it multiple times and multiple times before. I love

24:22 Spurgeon. This is my favorite quote by him, but we are not responsible for the souls that are saved

24:26 by the gospel that we preach and how we preach it. And so what is that saltiness that we're

24:31 bringing to this day and age? Are we bringing a saltiness of like, I need God, I need God to

24:37 change me? Are we bringing a saltiness of God's for you, who you are and where you are in life,

24:42 and just right where you're at, he created you that way. And it's like, it's the wrong saltiness.

24:47 It's almost like, you can buy fake salt on a way would, but you can buy like prop salt. That's not

24:53 actually salty, doesn't actually preserve anything, doesn't actually do anything. And so,

24:57 that's kind of a good point is your pastor putting out, you know, TED talk, you know, business advice,

25:00 leadership advice, is it moral therapeutic deism, or is it something that's gospel-based that is

25:05 actually going to lead to being a preservative? So I think that's a fantastic point. Derek,

25:09 can you hit versus 17 through 20, please? Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the

25:15 prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until

25:21 heaven and earth pass away, not in Iota, not a dot will pass from the law until it is accomplished.

25:28 Therefore, whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the

25:32 same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever does them and teaches them will be

25:37 called great in the kingdom of heaven. I tell you, unless your righteousness succeeds that of

25:41 the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Go and do verse 22, 20 as well.

25:48 Oh, sorry, you just said it. Good grief. I saw kingdom of heaven twice. Sorry,

25:54 Joby. I haven't done a sorry, Joby in a few episodes. So that one's all for me. But

25:58 the thing that I wrote down on section 17 through 20 is this is a great section for the

26:03 red letter Christians to reckon with when they're like, well, I just they focus on the red letters

26:09 and they put that above all the other, you know, red letters and words or they put that above all

26:13 the black letters and words. And I love what Vodie Bacham said about this, as he said, like,

26:17 if you believe in the Trinity, then they're all red letters, right? Father, son, and the Holy

26:21 Spirit's all this, all the same people. And so it's like, the reason why I like red letters in a Bible

26:26 is because if I'm flipping through to get to a section, it's like, Oh, this is Jesus talking.

26:30 It's just like a quick, it's a quick, you know, reference point for me. But it's like, I don't

26:35 look at those letters in those those words is any different because I do believe in the Trinity

26:39 and how we got the Bible. And so that's what I thought of when I got to the section.

26:42 Like New Testament does not ab abigate the Old Testament. Like it doesn't like, Oh,

26:46 this is new covenant. So everything in the Old Testament is wrong. It actually fulfills it.

26:50 So like all the ceremonial requirements, that's what Christ fulfilled when he died on the cross.

26:56 Like we don't have to sacrifice animals anymore because we have the ultimate sacrifice. So there's

27:02 not the ceremonial things that we need to do for sin anymore. All we have to do is believe

27:07 and repent. Yeah, I think that's great. Let's go ahead and move on to the next section here.

27:11 Winkler, if you'll hit 21 through 26 and I'll make sure to pay attention to your last

27:15 minutes this time. So I don't embarrass you. Start here. Perfect. You have heard that it was said

27:21 to those of old, you shall not murder and whoever murders will be liable to judgment. But I say

27:27 to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment. Whoever insults his

27:32 brother will be liable to the council and whoever says you fool will be liable to the hell of fire.

27:38 So if you are offering your gift at the altar and they remember that your brother has something

27:43 against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother

27:49 and then come and offer your gift. Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going

27:54 with him to court. Lest your accuser hand you over to the judge and the judge to the guard

27:59 and you be put in prison. Truly I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.

28:07 So this is probably the first, well, I don't want to say that. That's kind of weird. There's a lot

28:13 of paradigm shifts that Jesus has in even his early ministry. But this is the first one like,

28:17 wait a minute, like he moved the judgment line way closer than it used to be. Because for folks to

28:25 you know, abide by Exodus 2013, the six commandments not murder, there's probably there weren't people

28:31 that were having to wake up, you know, every day and be like, okay, okay, you have this, you have

28:34 self control, you don't have to murder anyone today. Like that wasn't like something that was

28:38 probably a huge problem back in that day. But Jesus says, no, no, it's not just shedding people's

28:44 blood. If you hate them, if you're angry with them, it might as well be murder. And like, that's like,

28:49 wait, wait a minute. And I think that's his way. Here I am like, assigning to Jesus motive. But

28:56 that's his way of saying like, you think you're better than other people. I've moved the line.

29:02 And we get that in the next section as well, where it's like, no, no, we're moving the line to a very

29:07 particular thing to encompass a lot of different things. I don't think he's adding though. I don't

29:11 think he's adding to the law. I think he's adding either. He's just showing you this is what what we

29:16 mean. Like this is how much you're not going to be able to hit the mark. And I think I agree on that.

29:22 I think he's kind of showing the motive, the motive of both hate and the motive of murder

29:27 are the same. And they lead to the same moral, sinful place. What do you guys think?

29:33 I mean, I think it's just proving how broken we are and that even if I don't, like you guys are

29:42 saying, I'm not, I'm not going to get in your face and say, I hate you. And I'm going to thank it.

29:46 I'm guilty as anybody else that goes through it. And I just, I'm just saying, we're broken. And

29:53 I mean, it's just proving more that Christ is our only way to get through something we do,

29:58 basically, for me. It's what I'm seeing anyway.

29:59 I think you have a lot of emphasis on the dignity of human beings when we start going through

30:06 much of what we're about to go through. It's not enough that we don't take the life of a human,

30:12 but don't do anything that demeans a person's dignity.

30:18 CS Lewis called that the weight of glory. So we should pattern our lives so that we promote

30:24 our neighbors glory over our own. This anger and you know, don't just don't murder. It's like,

30:31 okay, well, that's that's not that hard of a hurt. That's not a high hurdle to clear. Not being

30:38 angry. I mean, honestly, just driving over here, I'm sure I probably, you know, exhibited, you know,

30:44 this just over here, I probably need to pray quick. But it is something where I think, again,

30:50 it's heart change. Can you actually, I think it's going to be natural that our emotions get

30:57 the better of us? I mean, I think it's hard not to. I think it's also just as important when you

31:04 actually are a Christ follower, you have to be able to recognize when your emotions are getting

31:09 the better of you and know that it's sinful and know that you need to pray and ask for forgiveness.

31:16 I think that's where he's coming along with the repentance because when it comes down to it,

31:21 like with the law, it says thou shalt not murder. You know, this is what we're talking about.

31:25 Well, you have to do an action. You have to actually murder somebody. So think of a Pharisee and

31:30 Sadducee basically talking to like, well, I never murdered anybody. You know, like, I'm a good person.

31:35 I've never murdered anybody, but we hear that now. Yeah, we even hear that now. Like, I've told

31:40 my wife many times like, yeah, I messed up in high school, but I never got arrested, you know,

31:43 but she's like, wait, great bar, you know, but but that's the point of repentance is like,

31:49 yeah, you never murdered anybody, but in your heart and in your mind, you have hated your brother,

31:54 you have hated this person. And that's where it comes to repentance in the men at Tonya that I

31:58 talked about last week, and that you change your mind on how you're going to treat people.

32:03 It's almost like bringing you to self sacrifice when also it's telling you so back in verse 22,

32:09 where he says you full, I think last week of the week before I said this was Luke 11,

32:12 maybe it wasn't Luke 11 as well, but here it is in Matthew five. But when you're calling someone

32:16 you full, it's again, you could go back to see John calling the Sadducees and Pharisees a

32:22 brood of Vipers and be like, wait a minute. So we are to speak insults to people or we're not

32:26 speaking insults people, but think about the difference in motivation that's being described

32:29 here versus being described there. I don't know who read last. Winkler. All right. Horn 27 through

32:35 30. This is kind of an extending. What's that? Yeah. Yeah, that's why I waited. I do this on purpose.

32:40 You might grab Matt Grassmeyer voice. Don't do it. Don't make it too sexy. You have heard what I

32:44 have. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's like a contact bar talking right now.

32:50 So just just hit it in your normal voice, please. You've heard it said you shall not commit adultery,

32:56 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed

33:00 adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away.

33:06 For it is better that you lose one of your members than that of your whole body be thrown

33:11 into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better

33:16 that you lose one of your members than your whole body going to hell. So quick message to the people

33:23 that say you need to read the Bible literally every last piece of it. I would like to refer you

33:27 back to the part where you are to tear out your right eye and throw it away if it causes you to

33:32 sin. So if you're going to be literal about everything in the Bible, you have to include those

33:36 scriptures as well. But I think the thing here that's being, again, you kind of took Umbridge

33:42 Ryan to whenever I said, like, added, like an added thing. But I do think, you know, the seventh

33:47 commandment exit is 2014 when we're talking about adultery, that this seems like a much different

33:54 standard that Jesus is giving us because when that was spoken, the law was spoken by Moses,

33:59 everyone knew exactly what that meant. And they would not have included what Jesus is including

34:05 here. And so again, we're we don't want to impune motive on on Jesus, right? You know, several

34:10 thousand years later. But the thing about this here is it, it causes especially, well, I'll say

34:16 for for women and for men, we've all adultered, which I want to withhold until we get into that

34:21 next section. Well, actually, let's combine this. I want to read I'm going to read versus 31 and 32,

34:27 because I think this is all part of the same discussion. So 31 and 32. It was also said,

34:32 whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce. But I say to you that

34:36 everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit

34:41 adultery. And whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery. Okay. So sexual immorality,

34:47 there is a word Purnia or Purnia. And that, you know, would describe adultery, homosexuality,

34:53 B C ality, sex outside of wedlock, all those different things. So if the standard, go ahead.

34:59 You're telling me Christ is talking about homosexuality right now? Yes.

35:02 Because a lot of people will say Christ. Sorry, Carl Lance, breaking news.

35:06 He definitely talked about J.D. Greer. I think this is a loud portion. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're

35:12 going to love you. Yell about the things that the Bible yells about and whisper the things that

35:16 whispers about. Like, I don't know that God was whispering when he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.

35:21 But the so let's talk about these sections together. If this if you have adultered,

35:26 if you've looked at a woman and lusted. Okay, let's all use me as an example. So let's say I'm out

35:32 with my wife and you know, the waitress walks by and I check her out as she's walking away.

35:37 And I have a fleeting thought about sexual relations with her. Okay. In that moment,

35:42 I am an adulterer. Kelsey has grounds for divorce. In that exact moment. And so because I have some

35:49 very, very strong thoughts on divorce, specifically in the church, specifically when churches will

35:55 ordain and participate in second and third and so on marriages with people whose first marriages did

36:02 not end because of adultery or death. And I have a lot of problems with that. But again, if the

36:08 standard is, you know, you've already committed if you have looked at a woman with lustful intent,

36:13 all of our wives could leave us now. Oh, yeah. All of us could leave our wives now.

36:19 So I guess it's like, do we really have grounds to keep a couple from having a second marriage

36:25 in our congregations? Because they could just easily be like, yeah, well, I didn't actually,

36:30 you know, go all the way physically, but I went there mentally and Jesus calls this the standard.

36:35 You see what I'm saying? It creates a very hard line because I've had discussions even recently

36:41 with people who were wanting to join certain churches. And you know, I knew that first marriages

36:47 weren't ending because of death or divorce. And they're getting married and now it's like,

36:51 is anyone going to tell her that, you know, he's making her an adulterer now? But again, like,

36:56 is he according to this scripture? Like that's hard for all adulterers if you look at it.

37:01 And I mean, I hear you're coming from 100%. I feel, you know, I'm about as conservatives

37:07 as the next guy. Love Reagan, but Reagan was the reason we have no fault divorce here

37:13 in the United States. And I'll start it in California when he was governor.

37:16 And I think no fault divorce has taken away what marriage is as a covenant and has made it

37:21 contractual or made it more. How does it fit me? So I think that

37:29 I drew a roller coaster track. The problem is, the problem is I'm trying to look at you when I

37:36 talk to you. Don't look at me. Yeah, I'm not going to look at you anymore. Look at Winkler.

37:39 I'm looking at Winkler. There it is. But no, I mean, I see where you're coming from 100% though.

37:45 I mean, like if you're getting a divorce and it has nothing to do with adultery or sexual

37:48 immorality, yeah, what Christ says is you're you're leading this up to making them an adulterer.

37:54 He even goes over at Matthew 19 when he discusses that marriage is between a man and a woman

37:59 and how a man will leave his family and cleave to his wife. And they said,

38:04 but he said divorce is not what God wants. Moses allowed you guys to have it because you wanted it.

38:10 You know, we he gave you what you wanted because but it's not God's design. And so I think it

38:17 I think it's something to look at. But when I look at it, I'm an adulterer. I've been I was an

38:21 adulterer before I met my wife. And you know, that's something that we have a sin nature.

38:26 Could my wife leave me because I find another woman attractive? Of course. Can I leave my wife

38:32 because she finds Mark Wahlberg attractive? Probably. You know, you had that one ready. I did.

38:37 There's a there's a running joke in my family during COVID. We had to wear a mask at home and

38:41 I cut out a picture of Mark Wahlberg's face, put it on mine. I was like Rachel makes me wear

38:45 this around the house. So that's just got weird. Yeah, well, I'm uncomfortable. Marky Mark and the

38:50 funky bunch, bro. But no, but I mean, but if you think about it, I mean, we have a sin nature and

38:56 unfortunately, sexual immorality and our day and time is so different. Maybe not too different

39:03 than back then, but it's it's more accessible now. What about you guys? Because he's back to

39:09 back or hard to do. Never. I was going to say that, you know, while we were eating right before

39:14 this, you were talking about the top three lists that somebody asked about. I mean, you know, yeah,

39:18 it's like, why would you why would you even be having a claim? I can tell the story. If you

39:24 want to go ahead, Ryan, we were at dinner with friends and their friends actually from church.

39:31 And they were like, you know, they're trying to make conversation. They're like, hey, like,

39:34 who are your top three? We're like top three of what like top three of like, you know, famous

39:39 people that if you could get away with, you know, having relations with, you would, you could

39:43 get away with it or like your spouse would be okay. Your hall pass. Yeah, your hall pass. Thank

39:47 you. That's a good one. And so, you know, my wife doesn't miss a beat. You know, she's like Mark

39:51 Wahlberg. So sorry, Rachel. I'm just messing to the lesson. But like, we were just talking about

39:58 wives and we're talking about, you know, like, you know, men, women know how carnal men are. And

40:04 so like, I don't point out attractive women. It's not my, you know, it's not something I want to do.

40:08 So when someone asked me that question, I was like, yeah, Brandon Flowers from The Killers,

40:12 you know, like I throw out a guy because I don't want my wife to be like, I have to put myself up

40:16 to this person or this person or this person for to go after my husband's attractiveness or what

40:22 what he's into. It's like, no, I love you because this is who God created for me to love and to go

40:27 through life with. And we're going, you know, we're going to have our ups and downs. There's times

40:32 she's probably not going to find me attractive or something. I guarantee that. But it's just like,

40:36 these are the words that, you know, I like to go back to Peter when he talks about the woman

40:41 being the weaker vessel, you know, and by weaker vessel, he doesn't mean the woman that's, you know,

40:46 women are weaker and men have to take care of them and they're not smart or anything like that. It's

40:51 like, no, they're an emotional vessel. And they want to be loved and cared for just like the church

40:56 wants to be cared for by Christ. And so if Christ would be like, you know, like, oh, you know, you

41:01 guys, you guys at this church are great, but this one's oh, so much better. You know, like, no,

41:05 Christ is going to love his people as he loves his people. I went off a tangent. So no, you're fine.

41:10 I think it's, I mean, to this point, I guess I would say, understand that when we're reading

41:16 through these, I mean, we simply are not going to bat a thousand on these. You can't do it. You

41:24 can't do it. Yeah. You know, Luther recognized it. So again, I'm going to quote something. I got

41:30 to read something here. So Luther recognized that the Sermon on the Mount cannot be an articulation

41:34 of the means of entering the kingdom of God, because it is impossible for humans apart from

41:39 God's grace to carry out its stringent demands. Now, does that mean we have a hall pass? No.

41:45 Justification. There's, there's justification for the sin, but now, now there's this sanctification

41:52 that goes afterwards. And so I think a lot of people, whenever you read through these,

41:58 and I think this is an easy one, it's like, okay, well, I find, you know, I saw this woman and I

42:03 thought she was pretty. Yeah. Okay. That's sinful. And you're going, well, how would I ever avoid

42:10 that? It's like, you can't. That's the point you can't avoid. Well, that's like, and that's

42:14 the thing where we want to talk about like, God only whispers about sexual immorality.

42:19 And when you think about it, like he just pointed out, cut your right eye out if it causes you to sin,

42:25 chop off your hand if it causes you to sin. He's not actually asking you to do this. He's

42:29 showing you the severity of this sin and how it's going to affect you as a person. So sexual immorality

42:35 is a huge severity of a, of a sin that we have to look at, because it's the one that's going to

42:40 create kind of what we are. I think you also have to be mindful, especially if you're married,

42:46 you're going to have to be mind, you're going to have to put up some guardrails in your life.

42:49 I mean, and I don't mean, you know, I'm sure it's helped a lot of people, but you know,

42:53 I don't mean stuff like covenant eyes necessarily. I mean, things like you need rules for yourself.

42:59 Okay. Things that would basically say, look, I'm not even going to cross this very easy,

43:05 simple line that is not sinful. I'm actually putting myself into a higher, a higher standard.

43:11 I don't want to say higher standard. That's not right. But

43:13 we're getting more distance between you and potential that's it. Yeah. So example,

43:18 I won't hug another woman, unless it's my wife, my sister, my mother, God rest her soul or any,

43:25 you know, or my sister in law. I won't do that. It's just, there's just rules. And then what happens

43:32 is there are people who come up to me and they'll, you know, friends, wives or whatever, they'll

43:36 come up and they'll give me a hug and they'll put their arms out. And I'm like, oh, I don't want to

43:41 do this. This is breaking my rules. So you stiff arm them? I wish.

43:44 I hug them because, but at that point, it's like, okay, I gave them a hug, but this is also like,

43:51 it feels wrong because I've set a standard for myself that I'm breaking. And so there's never

43:58 going to go, it's never going to go any further than that. It's kind of the same reason I won't go

44:02 to lunch with a coworker who's a female by myself with just her. There's just needs to be boundaries.

44:10 And I mean, because if you look at what what adultery can be, I mean, flirting with another woman,

44:16 that is adultery. So my line of work, I have to eat with females. You know, it's just what I do,

44:22 but I've made the rule. I won't ride with him in my car alone. So if I have to meet up with a

44:27 coworker who happens to be a female, I will meet her at the restaurant and we will eat.

44:32 Because you've got to set that standard. I don't hug. I don't like hugging my friends' wives.

44:38 Like they hug me sometimes. I just don't like it because I don't like to get hugged.

44:41 Like we have a, we have two people in our group that Kyle hugs Ryan.

44:47 We have two people in our group and I love them dearly. Like one of them, you know,

44:53 her husband's my biggest mentor. And he and I, you know, talk a lot, but she would always like,

44:59 kind of like rub my back, like at the beginning, like when we were like starting to go to group.

45:04 And I would be like, it's all rich. I was like, it's kind of awkward. You know, I was like,

45:08 I'm not used to like somebody rubbing my back, you know, but like she does it out of like,

45:12 she does it out of like a very nurturing aspect and like making you feel welcome.

45:18 And you feel the love from these couples. Both of them are very much huggers, you know,

45:24 and it's like, I had to get over that part for me. But like, yeah, no, I see where you come from,

45:29 but I would love that rule. Yeah. But again, but again, but again, it's more about I'm putting

45:35 these structures up. The Bible doesn't say don't hug another woman. Yeah. I'm putting these

45:40 structures up because I'm like, no, I don't want it to go any further than this. I know this is wrong.

45:46 So I'm not going for, you know, it's the concept of the guardrail in the highway. It's like,

45:51 yeah, the guardrail doesn't prevent you from bumping into it. It prevents you from going

45:55 into the next lane. Um, so you have any guardrails there? Right on the spot. Yeah.

46:02 Don't drop bombs on terrorists that are winning. Yeah, we try not to do. Yeah. Um,

46:09 yeah, I know I'm building more guardrails as our marriage goes on. I mean,

46:16 you know, we've had, you know, things in the past where like, I probably shouldn't have done that.

46:18 It was pretty stupid. Um, so I don't, nothing different necessarily. I don't,

46:23 yeah, riding the cars by ourselves or whatever. Um, luckily my line of work,

46:28 there's not a whole lot of females in, uh, in our community. So sexist. We do have some,

46:35 I have a question. Can you fly in the cockpit? If it was just you and the female? Yeah, I mean,

46:40 I'd have to. No getting around it. Um, and that's fine. It's not only just us in the plane. So,

46:47 uh, yeah, but I mean, definitely trying to add guardrails as we see them and

46:53 our eyes are open. I like, I like what you guys are saying. Well, and you also, um,

46:57 you have to allow your wife to speak in to some guardrails. And so for me, like I'm a

47:04 quick communicator, like I'll try to get things done quickly. Um, but it came up once here,

47:09 even recently where I was texting some of my wife's friends just directly to ask them questions.

47:13 Now some of it would be like, Hey, your family is coming over to my house for dinner. Your

47:18 husband doesn't respond to texts very, very quickly. I know that you're going to probably

47:21 respond faster. And so I would just message them directly. Now it didn't create a problem

47:25 with my wife. It wasn't like, Oh, and then that led to an affair. No, it was just like,

47:29 Hey, if you're going to text someone else, text both of them. And but like in my head,

47:35 that was going to take way too much time to add a second name to, to a text thread or something

47:39 like that. And so that was one of those things where it wasn't a big deal. It wasn't going

47:43 to end up being a big deal. But yeah, I'll just do that from, from here on out because,

47:47 and then some wives are like, might be like, Hey, why is Kyle texting me individually and not

47:52 asking my husband, who is his friend? And it's one of those things where you have to like kind of

47:57 listen for those times, because if you had something for your wife that you wanted her to add to kind

48:02 of the the guardrail system or something like that, and she reacted negatively to it. I know me,

48:08 I'm probably just going to go ahead and kill the person like that, not my wife, the guy, like,

48:11 because it's like this is going to lead somewhere. And so like it, this is going to be potentially

48:15 an issue. And so that's another thing as well. If you're going to add, add those, those separators

48:19 between you and potential downfall, if your wife makes a suggestion, you should probably roll with

48:24 that. I hear you on that, because like when you were getting your surgery done and felt we were

48:29 texting Kelsey on my own. Yeah, because like for me, I do she was with you.

48:33 You know, for me, I don't really care. But like, if your spouse cares, then, you know, do your best

48:39 of trying care, because care will lead to understanding, at least hopefully. Derek, can you read 33 through

48:45 37? Again, you have heard it was said to those of old, you shall not swear falsely, but shall

48:52 perform to the Lord while you have sworn. I say to you, do not take an oath at all, either by heaven

48:58 or for its throne of God, or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is

49:04 the city of the great king. And do not take an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair,

49:09 white or black. Let what you say, be simply yes or no, anything more than this comes from evil.

49:15 Now, some people have taken this section of scripture to be like, Christian should never

49:19 enter into contractual agreements, which that's not what this is saying. Essentially, again, it's,

49:25 it's elevating the words that you use. So when someone says, I swear on my grandkids that I would

49:32 never do such a thing, it's saying to you, your yes should mean yes, your no should mean no,

49:39 that we should treat. I forget who said it this way. I wish I was smart enough to have come up with

49:43 it. We should treat all communication as if it's under oath. And so when you're in a courtroom,

49:49 and someone asked the, you know, during cross examination, they ask you a yes or no answer,

49:54 it goes into the record as a yes or no answer, or yes or no question, you give a yes or no answer.

50:00 But if you fervently say yes, or fervently say no, it doesn't change the category that the answer is

50:04 in the categories and he answered in the affirmative, or he answered in the negative, he answered yes,

50:09 or he answered no. And so that was just one of those things, because even initially I was like, wait,

50:14 all signed contracts are sinful. And it's like, no, that's, that's just not what that is saying.

50:17 And so do you anybody have anything else on that before we move to the next?

50:20 You know, flip it in careless oaths. Yeah.

50:24 Is basically what they're getting at. And then also, you know, oaths that are used to deceive

50:28 people. So how many people will be like, Hey, man, if you give me all this money, I swear to

50:34 my grandkids or whoever that I'm going to double your money and then they take off with your money,

50:39 you know, and so it's just talking about flipping oaths and oaths used to deceive people or not,

50:44 because if you look back into the Bible, you know, there's covenants made between God and people

50:48 all the time, which are stronger than contracts, but God's making oaths to them.

50:53 Well, I'm part of this. One of my biggest bugaboos, and I talk about this every January when,

50:57 when I do my how to avoid being a crappy man episode, but especially now, and especially for

51:03 young kids, for, for people out there with teenagers, like if your kid just shows up on time bathed

51:10 and gives a little bit of effort, they're outpacing all of their peers because they're showing up

51:17 late, disheveled, act like they don't care. They want you to know they don't care. They're in a

51:22 customer service job and they have one air pod in and they're, oh, I'm sorry, sir. What was that?

51:26 When because they're having to pause the Netflix show they're watching or the podcasts are listening

51:30 to because they can't be bothered to do their fricking job that they're getting paid to do.

51:34 That's one of those things as well is like, be a reliable human being. So if you say, hey,

51:40 can you be here by two o'clock on Tuesday? The answer is yes. Unless something dramatic has

51:46 happened, I will be there. Hey, can you have this project done by Friday into business day? Yes,

51:51 I will absolutely do that. And if you continually are that person, like when it comes up for promotions,

51:58 you're going to be right there at the top of the list for promotions. When it comes to people

52:01 needing to rely on you just think about it. Who do you go to when your life starts falling apart?

52:06 It's not only people that you trust, it's people that you know you can rely on because you have

52:09 these Jack wagons that are fun to hang out with and they've got a lot of friends and all that.

52:13 But when you're going through the crap, they're not available. That's what I talk about the

52:17 difference between a six p.m. friend and a three a.m. friend. It's like you got those people that

52:21 are really fun and really cool to hang out with. But if it's after six p.m. on a weekday, they're

52:24 probably not going to answer their phone. Who are those three in people that you know that you can

52:28 rely on? Are you going to be that person? You know, I talk about building your foxhole. Are you a

52:33 foxhole guy? It's one of those things. It's like let your SBS and your no be no. And when the people

52:38 around you know that the level of dependency on you in a good way should increase. Whoever is

52:44 supposed to read next because I've already forgotten though, Winkler, we're back 38 through 42. We're

52:48 going to camp here for a little bit. You have heard that it has said an eye for an eye and a tooth

52:53 for a tooth. But I say to you, do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the

52:59 right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic,

53:06 let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles,

53:13 give to the one who begs from you and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.

53:19 So if there were a top 10 list of scriptures that were used incorrectly, this section of

53:25 scripture specifically the if someone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

53:30 Anyone that is a pacifist Christian has used this exact scripture incorrectly to say that we

53:37 should never be by be violent. A couple of years ago, I did a debate on unbelievable with Justin

53:42 Briarley. What's that guy's name? I debated forgot his name. Anyway, that English dude,

53:47 wasn't it? No, it was a guy from like Tennessee. But anyway, Shane, Shane Clay Warren.

53:53 Anyway, so he goes around the country convincing law-abiding gun-owning Christians or just law-abiding

54:02 gun owners to come up to the stage during his presentation and destroy their firearms.

54:06 And it's because of he takes some scripture and Isaiah to out of context, like turn your,

54:13 your swords into plowshares. Swords into plowshares and all this kind of stuff. And you know, he's

54:16 basically what he's not understanding is that Isaiah two is, you know, he's basically talking

54:21 about what Jesus will do, not what men should do. But anyway, that's not exactly where they're

54:25 in. And so, you know, so second amendment and self-defense stuff isn't even in the top 10

54:30 list of things that I talk about normally. But for this debate, I was like, yeah, I'll, I accept

54:34 and I will drag him into deep water and drown him slowly. And that's what I feel like happened

54:38 in the debate. But he used this one exactly to where it's like, this is Jesus repudiating violence.

54:44 But what he doesn't understand is we have to be very, very particular here. But if anyone

54:49 slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. So in this day and age, as in most times,

54:57 just about everybody was right handed. So Derek, if I were to stand up and smack you on your right

55:03 cheek with my right hand, am I going to be hitting you? It would be a backhand. So think about it,

55:09 guys, you're standing eyeball to eyeball somebody and you just smack them on the nearest part of

55:13 their face. You're smacking them on their left cheek, their left cheek. In order to smack them

55:18 with your right hand on their right cheek, it is a backhand. So not buried, but right here in plain

55:25 sight, it's smacking someone on the right cheek. The point here is a verbal slight, an insult.

55:32 What Jesus is saying is that if somebody verbally insults you, turn to them the other cheek,

55:38 allow them to insult that side as well, allow them to smack you there as well. There is nothing

55:43 here in no legitimate scholarship that says that if somebody were to physically strike you in the

55:49 face, that you should turn to them the other cheek. Also, if you've watched enough, you know,

55:55 world star hip hop videos and different things like that, you may only get one shot in the face.

56:00 That's why like these these parents that teach their kids, hey, you know, never be the person

56:04 to throw the first punch. It's like, that's a great way to get knocked out. Like, like seriously,

56:09 I remember Charles Sonnen talking about that. He's like, if you listen to someone like that,

56:12 that is a good way to get beat up because some fights last one punch. That's as far as they last.

56:17 So the moment someone enters your bubble, your bubble of safety, and they've got that look in

56:22 their eye, it is incumbent upon you to protect yourself. And so that's the big thing with this

56:27 particular scripture is it's addressing personal retaliation. And it's also kind of telling you,

56:33 retaliation should not be over and above what what is necessary for that situation. It should be

56:39 equitable punishment. So if someone comes up to me in public and smacks me across the face,

56:45 because they don't like the way my face looks, and I were to take them down, mount them and beat

56:49 them to death with my elbows, that is not equitable punishment. But again, if this particular scripture

56:54 is talking specifically about personal slides and insults. And so I'm very, very passionate about

57:01 describing this, because, you know, people will talk about they even people on the Exodus 21,

57:06 Leviticus 24 and Deuteronomy 19 side talking about an eye for an eye, they'll take that to think,

57:11 well, I can just do violence to people that do violence to me no matter what. It's like,

57:16 there are certain circumstances where that's not where the best thing for you to do,

57:20 the righteous moral thing for you to do would be to remove yourself from that situation.

57:23 The number of guys that I've talked to that are tier one operators or retired tier one operators,

57:28 black belts and jujitsu MMA fighters. Perfect example, I know I'm going long on this,

57:32 but just go with me. So Cowboy Saroni, he just retired one of the most famous UFC fighters

57:37 during his tenure, has a very, very big reputation for being just like a real, real bad dude.

57:41 So he is driving around his town and he pulls off into a grocery store. And apparently he had

57:48 accidentally cut someone off in traffic. So that guy follows Cowboy Saroni to the grocery

57:53 store parking lot. And as he is walking into the grocery store, the person Cowboy Saroni cut

57:59 off comes up to him and punches him in the face. So Cowboy Saroni gets punched in the face by just

58:05 some random civilian. Now in that moment, Cowboy Saroni would be completely vindicated if he just

58:11 smashed that person into the asphalt. But as the story goes, and as he tells it, he says,

58:16 I looked at the guy, I smiled, and I said, that's your free one. You will not get a second.

58:21 And that was it. Right? Because if someone says that to you, it's the same thing. Like,

58:25 if somebody starts putting in a mouth, mouth guard, and it's a street fight situation,

58:29 like, that's a crazy person. Like, don't fight that person. Someone that walks around with a

58:32 mouth guard in their back pocket. But it was one of those moments where Cowboy Saroni was perfectly

58:38 capable, right? In that moment, but he meeked himself. Yeah, he said, no, no, that was his

58:45 freebie. This guy has no idea who I am and what I'm capable of. But I'm going to give him his

58:49 warning. So I'm going to give him extra grace. So he didn't just respond in his, you know, his

58:55 machismo, and I'll have to defend myself now. And this will be a great story to tell in the Joe

58:59 Rogan experience later. But again, it's about having equitable parts to what you're doing to

59:05 not be retaliatory to an extreme degree. So it's personal retaliation. That's what we're going

59:11 after. It's like, you know, let the law do what the law does. So this has nothing to do with like

59:15 the death penalty. It's not saying, Oh, well, you know what the Bible says and I for an eye, you know,

59:19 Jesus talks against that. It's like, no, he really doesn't. What he's saying is, all right,

59:24 somebody murdered my family. I can't go and go and murder the other people's family,

59:28 because that would be personal retaliation. I need to let the law handle what's being done.

59:33 I mean, we all daydream about it that ever happened. Like, oh, man, I want to go freaking

59:36 Liam Neeson on those people. But that's not that Christ doesn't want you to go Liam Neeson

59:41 on those people. He wants you to let the law do it. What it's supposed to do and let God do what

59:45 he's supposed to do. And so all I have to say is, I would never mess with a guy named Cowboy

59:49 Saroni. No. So like, she didn't know that was his name. It's kind of like cauliflower.

59:55 Yeah. Yeah. I'm not going to go like, Oh man, I'm going to fall this guy and I see his cauliflower

1:00:00 here. I'm going to walk right out. Yeah. That's like a great lesson to people. I met a guy for the

1:00:06 first time today. Both of his ears were busted up with cauliflower. I know he didn't get that

1:00:09 from doing his taxes. And so like that's, that was one of those things I knew nothing else about

1:00:13 that person, aside from the fact that if I fight that person, it's going to hurt. Whether I win,

1:00:18 whether I win or lose, it's just flat out going to hurt me. Anybody else have anything on that

1:00:22 before we move on to close out? Matthew five. All right. Whoever wants to read it, read 43 through 48.

1:00:28 I'll read it. You have it. You have heard that it was said, you shall love your neighbor and

1:00:34 hate your enemy. But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.

1:00:39 So that you may be sons of your father who is in heaven, for he makes his son rise on the evil

1:00:45 and on the good and sends rain on just on the just and on the unjust. Or if you love those who love

1:00:51 you, what reward do you have? Do you not do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you

1:00:59 greet your brothers, what more? What more are you doing than others? Sorry. And if you greet only

1:01:07 your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not do not even the Gentiles do the same.

1:01:12 You therefore must be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect.

1:01:16 So the last verse there, verse 48, that's that's the standard. And as we've pointed out several

1:01:22 times in this conversation, it's impossible, which does not mean we don't strive for the standard

1:01:27 and that we have no standards. But I just got to tell you, like, I feel like we could have talked

1:01:32 for an hour just on verse 44. But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.

1:01:37 So I have someone that's very close to me who was going through a very, very rough time back

1:01:41 in the day. And they would quote the scripture. But then one day I asked, I was like, are you

1:01:47 actually, because I knew the person they were talking about was like, are you actually praying

1:01:52 for your enemies? Because you can pull the scripture out, no big deal. But he was so spiteful and so

1:01:58 angry as he was quoting the scripture. And I was like, the way you're describing this is not

1:02:02 indicative of what the command is. And you know, his answer wasn't satisfactory to that. But I'll

1:02:09 just fly it out, speak for myself in terms of loving your enemies and praying for those who persecute

1:02:12 you. You know, I've got a public profile. I got people that really don't like the things that I

1:02:17 stand for and really don't like the things that I say. And for me, I just don't really, I don't

1:02:23 even think about those people, to be honest, much much less pray for them. So it's not like I'm

1:02:27 hating them back. Like, that's why I don't go in my comment section. If I see a comment that's

1:02:32 someone leaves on Facebook or Instagram, it's by accident, typically, because it's like,

1:02:36 I'm not going to give somebody free bonus space in my brain. I talked to someone recently that was

1:02:41 like, Hey, I want to get a group of people together. So like, when a good Christian person is getting

1:02:45 mobbed online, we can have like a counter mob that will go to their pages and respond and all that.

1:02:50 And I got what he got what he was meaning is like, Hey, Christians are being attacked. I want

1:02:55 us to defend them. I want us to get in the phalanx with them. That was his point. But I remember

1:02:59 being like, look, imagine if I spent all day stressed out about how he's going to respond

1:03:04 to an Iranian robot, right? Because how do we know that's a person? And you're sitting there

1:03:08 like crafting this gorgeous response to a non entity. But even if they were a person,

1:03:14 you're spending all this mental capital, you're giving people free rain in your brain.

1:03:19 What if we just pause and said, man, I'm just going to pray for that person? Because this doesn't

1:03:23 say get down on your knees and pray for days. And you know, you know, pray all these different

1:03:27 things just says, pray for those who persecute you. So you say something online or you say something

1:03:32 in public that someone is now persecuting you. Look at that as an opportunity to pray for them

1:03:36 and move on. Like, that's why I tell people all the time, like, just because you have access to

1:03:40 my comment section does not mean you have access to my arguments. Like, this does not mean that you

1:03:44 you know, I did explain to a guy in my DMS. Like, I was like, look, bro, he was like messaging me

1:03:49 about something specific during while I was on vacation with my kids and he got mad that I didn't

1:03:53 respond to immediately. It's like, bro, just because you can send me any DM doesn't mean you

1:03:56 get to dictate when I respond to you. And the same thing here, somebody says something mean to you

1:04:01 or tries to persecute you in this way, like pray and move on. Yeah, I wanted to emphasize one thing

1:04:07 here when we talk about love, I can't stand what we have done to love in our society. We've cheapened

1:04:15 it so much. You know, I actually will say like the first time I said, I love you to my now wife.

1:04:24 It felt like the Holy Spirit was literally pushing it out of me. And that feeling of like a biblical

1:04:31 love is a sacrificial love. It is I am willing to lay down my life for you to die for you.

1:04:39 That is love in the biblical sense. And yet we sit here and we've, I mean,

1:04:45 I will. Well, it's, it's, it's become about sexual gratification or, I mean, the, the idea of like,

1:04:53 I love that new movie or I love that new song. We just throw it out there like it's nothing.

1:04:58 This is a big deal. It's a big deal to to say you love someone as a Christian means something

1:05:05 totally different, totally, totally different than the way that our society has decided to use this

1:05:10 word. Yeah, I love Kyle. We've never had a romantic connection. So you never offered.

1:05:19 I have a Klondike bar. No, but no, I agree with you 100%. I feel like the, I feel like love has

1:05:26 been bastardized in our society to mean all these multiple things that really come. Nothing

1:05:33 comes back to self-sacrifice. It always comes back to me, me, me. We actually discussed this

1:05:38 in regards to marriage today and love. And I think one of the things that I really enjoyed,

1:05:42 they brought up David and Jonathan and like, you see Dave, Jonathan take these oaths with David.

1:05:48 He's like, Hey, my house, you know, we, I love you, David. My house is going to love David. You

1:05:53 know, we're going to create these, these, um, covenants with each other out of, out of love.

1:05:59 And now you have people like, Oh, yeah, Jonathan and David were homosexuals. They had a homosexual

1:06:04 relationship like just because David said, or Johnson said they said they love each other. Yeah,

1:06:09 automatically. Yeah, that meant that they had sex. False. You know, it's like, no, I mean, like, I

1:06:13 can, I've told Kyle, I love them multiple times. Doesn't mean we had sex, you know, so it doesn't

1:06:19 mean that guy. But that's what it comes nowadays. It's like, you know, are we've cheap and love,

1:06:26 like you said, it's, it's, it's horrible. It's not self sacrificial anymore. And that's the kind of

1:06:31 love he's talking about. It's going to be a self-sacrifice to love our enemies. One modern day,

1:06:36 love is like super like, yeah, like that's what love is like, no, I super like you. Yeah. I love

1:06:41 you. No, like I forget who said it. Uh, it may have been Bill Burr again, but he was just like,

1:06:47 when someone says that was amazing, they're like, was it literally amazing? It may have been

1:06:52 the Lucy K, but it's like, do you know what that word means? You just said your, your sandwich was

1:06:57 amazing. Like, did it put you in a state of amazement that you could barely function? That's what your

1:07:04 sandwich just did for you. So yeah, we live in an era where we're cheapening things, but I know

1:07:08 the post you're referring to Ryan and like, that guy I think is just being a troll now. Like,

1:07:12 he's just trying to get a rise. He's like a self-proclaimed progressive Christian. He on his website,

1:07:17 he has integrity listed as one of his like, uh, like core competencies. He's like, you know,

1:07:23 writing and HTML integrity. And it's like, oh, is [inaudible] like right below that one? And it's

1:07:29 like, that seems to be like one of your skill sets, but apostate. Yeah. Being an apostate. But guys,

1:07:34 one day before you finish, I was going to say, I just say, I want to go.

1:07:37 Everybody gets one more comment. Derek gets the last one or going Ryan Winkler, Derek,

1:07:43 and then we'll, we'll wrap up. I just want to go off 48. You therefore must be perfect as your

1:07:48 Heavenly Father is perfect. I think throughout this whole conversation from the Beatitudes,

1:07:53 to retaliation, oaths, sexual immorality, divorce, and how will you talk about Christ,

1:08:00 you know, making it, pushing, pushing it out more. How did you say it, Kyle? Like, uh,

1:08:06 he wasn't adding, but you're like extending the distance. He was extending the distance and he's

1:08:12 extending that distance for a purpose. That purpose is not because you're going to meet that. The

1:08:17 purpose is to show that you, what you think, your idea of love and your idea of oaths and your

1:08:22 idea of, uh, right and wrong are, are not perfect as the fathers. And so that's why you need a

1:08:29 Savior. So you're never going to reach that perfection. So this is not going to be on Ryan's

1:08:34 point, but I, this is something just as I was reading through it. Keep in mind that Jesus is

1:08:40 literally doing this just outside disciples in front of him. Crowds are gathering around.

1:08:44 John the Baptist did the same thing. Peter did it at Pentecost. Paul did it on Mars Hill to the

1:08:50 Athenians. They're open air preaching. Okay. And thank God, the disciples, whenever at Pentecost,

1:09:00 thank God they did not hang a notice outside the door saying tonight gospel outreach service all

1:09:06 welcome self at seven p.m. Okay. They went out. You have to go where sinners gather and share the

1:09:14 gospel to that point, the salt and light, right? If you're going to, you have to be involved in

1:09:20 the environment. If you are going to, you're going to be separate from it, but you have to be

1:09:24 involved in it. And so I think, you know, it's not enough, you know, and it's hard now, right?

1:09:31 To do the open air preaching because where do you go? Where's the, where's the, where's the

1:09:35 community square? And that's why I'm going, yeah, a podcast like this is kind of important because

1:09:41 it is something that can reach people. YouTube's a public square. Social media is a public square.

1:09:46 Yeah. Kind of. Well, maybe a little bit. Yeah. Sorry. Filter. Yeah. Algorithms and all that. But

1:09:52 the idea is you're going to have to find a way to reach people in a society that is more isolated

1:09:59 and withdrawn than ever. So you got to go where sinners gather. Yeah. And you got to bring the

1:10:05 song. Hey, hey, it's not your turn. No, no, you're cut off. You're done. You're done. Derek,

1:10:10 bring us home. Talk for you. You want to take mine? No, I'm good. First, I want to just say,

1:10:15 it's kind of cool. Matthew calls himself out, you know, even the tax collectors do the same.

1:10:19 Kind of going back to his old job. I didn't even pick up on that. Yeah, I literally wrote down.

1:10:27 That's kind of funny. He's saying that to a tax collector. And I'm just going to add,

1:10:32 going back to the beatitudes. All eight of these are something we all need to be striving for.

1:10:39 And we're all going to be in, you know, different aptitudes or different areas as we continue to

1:10:45 grow. I heard this analogy around what you'd call it. But like my house, when we first moved into it,

1:10:52 yard was grown up. Weeds everywhere. Grass was dead. Over the next three years, you know,

1:11:00 some of the grass is growing where the patches weren't there. The trees are a little trimmed up.

1:11:05 We've got a few flowers now. So it's improving, but it's not like my neighbor's house who's been

1:11:10 been there for five years, 10 years, which is, you know, perfectly manicured and looks great.

1:11:15 So it's easy for me. I mean, I guess now to judge others. I can't believe you're doing that.

1:11:22 And like I was saying earlier, five years ago, are you improved from where you're at? So

1:11:26 just kind of going back to the beatitudes. I'm definitely not hitting all eight. And maybe,

1:11:32 you know, I'm a one on one of them. I mean, I got to work on that. It's going to be constant

1:11:36 going back and forth through each of them. I don't know. It's kind of hit me this week reading through

1:11:41 those. One with the beatitudes. We shouldn't look at it as a score sheet as much as a checklist

1:11:47 because it's like, we're not being scored, you know, zero to 10 on these is yes, no. Yeah. And

1:11:52 the reality is, if it's known any of these, guess you need to save here. And so it's like that. That

1:11:57 makes it a lot, a lot easier. But again, to reiterate a point that I think is so important,

1:12:02 that doesn't mean we don't try. It doesn't mean we don't strive just because it's not in your

1:12:05 gifting or in your natural wiring. That doesn't mean that you're not supposed to strive for it.

1:12:09 Because that's part of the fruit. And we can get into a long discussion about fruit. But

1:12:12 we're going to have to leave it there. But guys, come back here next Sunday, where we are going to

1:12:15 dig into Matthew six, make sure you are read through Matthew six, so you're prepared for next week.

1:12:20 But before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost and undaunted life. Our

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