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1:18
This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host Kyle Thompson.
1:23
Let's get into it.
1:24
Welcome back to the forging table. The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping
1:27
men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental and physical resilience.
1:31
At the forging table, you'll see a group of regular guys,
1:34
normally forging spiritual resilience by digging into God's word and we're welcoming all of you
1:37
to come along on that journey with us. If you didn't listen last week, then you know,
1:40
you didn't. That's why I did the joke for a second time because you should know who's here at the
1:44
table. We got an extra one at the table today, but we got a couple of OGs at the table. So
1:48
Matt Grasmire is back. Eric Browning is back. But if you guys listened last week and you skipped
1:52
ahead, I didn't do as much of a dramatic introduction, but we have the one and only
1:56
Pastor Joby Martin of Churchill 1122 down in Flo Rida. That's it. So happy to have you here.
2:01
Happy Easter. Happy Easter, man. This is a great day, obviously, but it's an even better day
2:06
because while we're recording this, you are in the great state of Oklahoma. And so
2:10
what is your favorite thing about Oklahoma and why is it better than Florida?
2:14
I don't know any of the fact that I need to go hunting here is what I like about it right now.
2:20
That's right. That's right. But you've had a good time in Oklahoma so far. So we'll have
2:24
to make sure we can kind of keep this happening. But yeah, guys, it's never lost on me that this
2:27
is a very unique opportunity. We planned this a long time ago and Joby was very adamant about
2:32
coming out here whenever I pitched him on closing out Matthew. And that's that's literally what
2:36
we're doing. So last week was the penultimate chapter and we have the ultimate final chapter
2:40
of Matthew right now. And so, and again, I kind of talked about this a little bit with the first
2:45
recording that we did for last week. And do you all remember when we were sitting downstairs at,
2:51
you know, at my house and we're just talking through this idea of what if we did a Bible study
2:57
and we did it like on camera and we just kind of like didn't perform, but just like, you know,
3:03
turn the mics on and then just had Bible study like a real dude. And I remember being kind of like,
3:08
I hope this works. But hey, let's just do, let's just do one Pauline epistle. And then
3:14
if it sucks, we'll just pretend like I'd never did it and just let it kind of fall.
3:18
And then before we even record the first one, I was like, no, we're just doing this now. Like,
3:21
if if I don't do any other interviews or so up so we're doing the forging table. So
3:25
for the OGs, I just wanted to kind of get y'all's perspective because here we are. Well, you know,
3:29
we're a year and a half into the forging table. And it's still the thing I get complimented on the
3:33
most when it comes to the to a done a life. It's one of the more stimulating things that I get to do.
3:37
I can tell you that much. And then just all the banter and the things on our our text chain
3:42
throughout the weeks leading up to never see the stuff in our text chain ever, ever.
3:48
It's all edifying, obviously. Of course, for sure. I remember.
3:52
I think I was bought in on the daunted for a lot. I've been on bought in for a long time.
3:58
But I think I was excited to do it. But like Eric's saying, like, I've, you know,
4:04
obviously gotten to know Eric and a lot of other guys a lot better and been able to dive into the
4:10
word a lot deeper. Man, this has been an amazing journey for me over the last year or so. And I
4:19
love it. Well, it's and it's we're still just getting started because apparently getting through
4:22
the Bible is going to take till 2045. Right. So Eric did the math. And so like, if we just keep
4:27
doing one chapter a week, like, this is totally possible is what I'm hearing. Like, we can certainly
4:33
make this happen. Like, I just hope y'all are still here for but before we dig into to Matthew 28,
4:37
Joby, I just wanted to kind of open it up to you because I will say you get defaulted to a lot,
4:43
right? Because you're the head guy at a big church. You're the head of your household,
4:46
all those types of things. And so you're used to being defaulted to and you probably get to
4:50
experience with some people experience like, you know, like whenever there's a like a celebrity or
4:54
a political figure, they'll go to a party and they'll say something that's not really funny. They know
4:58
it's not funny. And then everybody laughs and it's kind of like, I think they're laughing because of
5:02
who I am in the position I'm in. But I remember the first time you called me or texted me and you
5:06
said, dude, the forging table is it, it is legit. And probably the best, one of the best compliments
5:13
that we've ever got as a forging table. And I shared it with you guys immediately was I listened
5:18
to the forging table to get insight into what the, you know, 30 and 40 something year old young
5:24
fathers, like the serious dudes, the guys that are leaning in leaning forward, you know,
5:27
bringing their notebooks to church, like taking the catechisms of their children seriously and
5:32
discipleship seriously, like the forging table gives me a window into that. And I just was just like,
5:38
holy crap, I would have put more preplanning into that if I knew like people were actually
5:42
be listening. But I'm just curious, like from your perspective, like, why is something like this
5:47
unique enough to where you find it valuable to actually invest time in listening?
5:50
Yeah, I think I've listened to every single one. There's a lot to it. I mean, I learn a lot. You
5:55
guys come very well prepared, you know, I mean, you guys get your commentaries out and all the
5:59
things and, you know, last week we're quoting Spurgeon and all that. So it's one of the things
6:04
that I think it is a good example for people going into Bible study. What you guys are not doing
6:10
is coming in reading a verse and talking about how it makes you feel. Yeah, that's the worst version
6:14
of Bible study that there is. That's not Bible study. That's me study. And we have some Bibles
6:18
in front of us. So I really appreciate that you guys are actually letting the text drive the thing.
6:22
It does give me an inside look into people. I don't ever, whenever I'm doing this with people,
6:27
I'm always leading it. I just am. And so it is really cool to see what a disciple group at 1122
6:33
might look like if I could be a fly on the wall. And so for that, I appreciate it. I think the,
6:37
I think they're getting better. I really do. I think early on, you guys were, you were so aware
6:44
that there's an audience listening about trying to like teach stuff. Just the more real you could be
6:50
about where the scripture convicts you, the things that you don't know. In fact, so far,
6:56
my favorite one, not that my favorite matters whatsoever. But when you did Matthew 22, a part of
7:01
why I thought it was so good is you started out for a long time just talking about like engagement
7:07
stories and stuff. And as silly as that is, there's a lot of people that don't know what a Bible study
7:12
is supposed to be. And a part of it is some men just sharing their life together. So that was cool.
7:16
And then you're getting a pretty good fight over Reformed theology, you know. But I thought it
7:22
was a really good example of how to have robust dialogue, which we don't have anymore. It's just
7:26
shots on Twitter. And so it wasn't a fight. I don't, I think Ryan might have been a little bit mad,
7:32
but it's also a really good example of what it looks like for people to disagree with a lot of
7:37
passion and still love each other and study the Bible together and be unified around Christ.
7:42
One, it makes, it makes when we actually come to the table. Because the thing is, guys, we actually
7:47
hang out outside of here, right? So it's not just, Hey, these are employees of mine. And I, you know,
7:51
hire them and they, this is their scheduled week to come on. Like, no, like, you know, we hang
7:56
out outside of this, we know each other's families, we love each other's families. And as I've talked
7:59
about before, like we're so tight, you know, with each other to a degree to where it's like, if we saw
8:03
someone doing something to their kids, like we're going to be on television in the orange jumpsuit,
8:08
and we're not even going to think twice about it. Like it's just kind of one of those things. But
8:12
this, this goes back to really the whole point of me wanting to do the forging table from the
8:15
beginning. It was completely selfish. It was because in 2022, I read 54 books for the podcasts
8:22
and for interviews. And I didn't read that many chapters of the Bible. And I forget which one
8:26
of y'all I told first, but I was like, that's, that's bad. Like that's awful. And even just in the,
8:32
the year and a half or so since we, since we did this, just, just putting it on my calendar as a
8:37
thing that I have to do, like even, even though I treat it like a checkbox sometimes because of my
8:41
schedule, it's like, no, like spending the time in the words so that I can talk about it because
8:46
the thing is is kind of, I guess this is good and bad with where the show has gone in the last few
8:52
years. And the kind of the listens and downloads we get to now and what's shared is there are
8:57
people that are basing their life decisions off of words that come out of my face hole. And so I
9:01
take that responsibility very, very seriously. And like, if you don't do that, it could lead to
9:06
really, really, if you don't take that seriously, it could lead to really negative outcomes for the
9:10
people that trust you. And so, you know, I think all of us kind of carry that same
9:15
attitude in here to where it's like, yeah, we were real tight from the beginning. And that's,
9:20
that was my fault because I was like, no, we got, we got to stick with the scripture. And I told
9:23
everybody, remember my first notes, no inside jokes, like no one's going to care about our
9:27
inside jokes. It's not going to make any sense. And it's like that, that didn't make sense because
9:30
that wasn't, hey, giving someone like a window, like a pixies into what what guys would do in
9:35
something like this. Sure. Sure. Yeah. And the accountability, the accountability of leadership
9:40
has been a catalyst for my growth, like crazy. So the, the vision statement of 1122 is that we
9:46
are movement for all people to discover and deepen a relationship with Jesus Christ. My
9:50
experience has been nothing will help you deepen your walk with Jesus, like helping other people
9:55
discover theirs. So you can see when, when the word, when you're not like a cul-de-sac of the word
10:00
of God, and you're just going to like read it for your own devotion versus you know that you're a
10:05
conduit in the things that you learn are going to be passed on, you'll just learn more because,
10:11
because then you're, you're partnering with God in what he wants to do in the lives of other people.
10:15
It's been my experience as a pastor. Well, the thing I like about it now is because
10:18
all of us read, well, I think most of us are in the ESV. Some of the other guys have done
10:23
different translations, but we're all reading different commentaries. Some of the guys have gone
10:28
really deep into the Logos Bible software that, you know, you guys can check out on the show notes
10:32
way to get that Bible software. It's the most powerful Bible software in existence, like it's,
10:36
it's literally cavernous and endless. But like, I just appreciate how different people prepare.
10:41
So he talks about earlier, like it seemed like we were trying to make points. I remember when
10:45
Jake Winkler came on here the very first time, so the fawns. So something happened. I can't remember,
10:50
oh, uh, Zach got sick. He was out of town. He got like COVID and it's like 24 hours later,
10:55
we got to record, like, and I'm like, we're not recording with three people. So I just call Matt
10:59
and I go, we need some body. And he started asking me questions like, I just bring me a body,
11:04
bring me someone. And he brought me a big body. He brought me Jake Winkler in here. There's like
11:08
big shrek of a man. And he came in and he was ready because he's like analyst kind of like CPA dude,
11:14
like, uh, all that. And he had points. And you could tell he was trying to like get his point
11:18
across, but almost immediately he realized, Oh, that's, that's not why I'm here. I'm not here to
11:23
make the world's best points or to, to be whatever. But he just went, he's like, I got 24 hours to,
11:28
you know, sound smart about four chapters of the Bible. And like, I don't want to make Matt,
11:32
you know, mad and I don't want to like let anybody down. And I don't even think he thought about the
11:36
fact that there was going to be a mic in front of his face, because I don't even know if he knew
11:38
about my show or something like that. But that just shows the reverence that he had for scripture,
11:42
that he came so well prepared, but then he kind of eased into what the forging table is. I mean,
11:46
would you say that's the case? I would say that's definitely the case. He definitely was overprepared,
11:51
but, um, he definitely settled in pretty quickly, I would say. Yeah. And that's been great to see,
11:56
because we've had, you know, about a dozen or so guys do this. You know, we have our core four guys,
12:00
and then we've had some other guys fill in. And it's just like, it's great to see how everyone
12:03
prepares. So anyway, thanks for the compliments on that. And I appreciate you guys being here from
12:07
the beginning. But since it is Easter, right, we need to talk about the second most important thing
12:12
when it comes to Easter, other than the resurrection is that is Easter candy. And so we don't need to
12:16
talk about whether or not you Christian families are lying to your children about the existence
12:20
of an enormous bunny that leaves like plastic eggs in your yard that you will find years later.
12:25
So we don't, we don't need to, we'll just leave that alone. I'll do that whenever I destroy Santa
12:28
later on this year. But I need to know from each one of you guys, your poor kids. What? No,
12:33
no, no, they're, they're fine. They're going to do just fine, Joe, but you're, you're going to be
12:36
fine too. We'll see. Are you debating Santa later than you? Yeah. Since he exists, I'm going to be
12:42
doing a debate on how he doesn't exist. It's going to be, it's going to be enthralling. It's
12:45
going to be amazing. Stay tuned. So here's, here's a deal. Easter candy. I need to know what everyone's
12:51
favorite Easter candy is and why it's definitely not peeps. All right. So once a year, to my knowledge,
12:58
Reese's comes out with a special candy and still there, it's, it's like they got together in their
13:06
boardroom. You're like, how can we make the Reese's peanut butter cup better? And they just sat there
13:10
and scratched her head and then I'm sure they were like, there's no way there's no way. Wait a second.
13:15
What if we take Reese's pieces and put them into the Reese's peanut butter cup and somebody was
13:22
like, that's a, that's a fantastic idea. So around Easter, they come out with this and be looking for
13:29
them that they're going fast. You know, that's actually something that they do year round now.
13:33
What? They also have Reese's with potato chips in it and with pretzels in it. Come on.
13:38
My favorite candy bar is a Reese's fast break. Just like if I'm going into a gas station to
13:41
grab something real quick, Reese's fast break. That's the jam. But yeah, they just do that now
13:44
here. I really wish you got to tell me that. Now I'm going to gain like 10 pounds. No,
13:48
we'll pretend I didn't. Okay. So that's one. Next one. Favorite Easter candy.
13:52
You know, I don't really trust people who like peeps because peeps are gross. I used to love peeps
13:57
and then I opened my Bible and my favorite. That's what it says, right? My favorite Easter
14:03
candy actually, my wife turned me on to these. They're Cadbury eggs, but they're not the regular
14:07
Cadbury eggs. They're like the little, just solid chocolate coated in candy. You buy them in these
14:14
big bags and they're about that big and they are delightful. So that's my favorite Easter candy.
14:20
Jobe, I can't add. I mean, Eric, you nailed it. Whoever put chocolate and peanut butter together,
14:25
she'd get the Nobel Prize. So I, my answer is actually kind of a combo. Wait, wait, so you
14:32
weren't done. No, that's like, okay. Mine is actually kind of a combo of all of y'all's
14:36
because the perfect Easter candy. And you think I'm going to say Cadbury egg? No. No. Robin eggs.
14:42
Okay. Those are so good. So, but here's the thing, but here's the thing. This is how fat I am.
14:46
Okay. So Robin eggs, those are basically whoppers, but they're, they're kind of an egg shape and they
14:51
kind of got like, you know, egg, you know, whatever, colors on the outside. So blue and pink and all
14:56
that. But what I discovered is if you pop the top of Peter Pan honey roast peanut butter and then
15:03
you just dump the Robin eggs into that and kind of mix it around. And every single bite is like
15:09
chocolate candy, you know, malted whopper peanut butter. And the best peanut butter in existence
15:15
is Peter Pan honey roast peanut butter. No, I do not have a financial incentive to say that.
15:19
But I will also tell you there's like 15 grams of added sugar for every two tablespoons or something
15:25
of that. And so it's like each bite that I take is at least two tablespoons. And then you add
15:29
robin eggs into that. But I'm just telling you right now, you know, wait not withstanding. That's
15:34
maybe one of the best combinations for a candy dessert thing that you will ever have in your entire
15:38
life. Well, next time you go camping and you're going to make s'mores, just get rid of the Hershey's
15:44
get you a Reese's peanut butter cup and your marshmallow. And then your graham crackers,
15:49
it's delightful. And if you're going to do Hershey's, do the cookies and cream Hershey's. See, see,
15:55
and then guess what you put a big dollop on after you take it off, peanut butter, you just throw
15:59
that on the top and you just lather it around because it's got protein in it, right? So I'm always
16:03
worried about getting my protein in any other commentary on Easter candy before we move on to
16:07
the seriousness of the resurrection. Well, actually, I do want to go back to something because I
16:12
promise we would talk about it last week. We talked about a little bit and put a pin in it.
16:16
So limited in tone. And so when you get in, when you get into tulip. And so I had this discussion
16:22
with some of the other day because one of our lady listeners, which shout out to our lady
16:25
listeners, we love our lady listeners. They're always gangsters, but she had a question because
16:30
she goes to our church and her and her husband are in our Sunday school class. And she was like,
16:34
hey, where does Pastor Mark? So that's Dr. Mark Hitchcock. Where does he stand on like Calvinism,
16:40
like the tulip. And so tulip is total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement,
16:46
irresistible grace and perseverance of the saints. And what he has said is he, I think the way he's
16:51
worded it, correct me if I'm wrong, Eric, because you've gone there a little longer than me, he's like,
16:54
he's like, I'm a four point Calvinist. He's like, I'm, he, I don't think he would use the word
17:00
reluctant four point Calvinist. But the one thing and tulip that he gets hung up on is limited atonement.
17:06
And this is a man that has faithfully exposited the scripture for 30 years taught a dalstheological
17:11
seminary. Like he's very kind of an even killed guy. He spends a lot of time and focuses on a lot
17:16
of end times prophecy. So he's just like losing his mind right now because everything's just going
17:20
absolutely crazy. But that's kind of where he gets hung up. But when we were doing the discussion
17:25
of Matthew 22, Joby, you text me, you said somebody's explained to y'all what limited atonement is,
17:30
because when it's explained, and I guess it's most simple form, it's like, well, Jesus dying on the
17:37
cross only counted for some. And then some people will be like, yep, fair. And then other people
17:42
be like, no, absolutely not. That's not what that means. And so what do you mean by counted?
17:46
What do I mean by counted? Yeah, that that's that's fundamentally the question. It's a real
17:51
misunderstanding of what it is. The word atonement simply means payment. That's what it means.
17:56
So Jesus could simultaneously dial the cross for everyone, but he only makes payment for the sins
18:03
of those who believe. So if you don't believe limited atonement, then your only other option
18:08
is universalism. And you don't believe that everybody's going to heaven because Jesus died on the cross,
18:14
right? No. The only ones he paid for were the ones that put their faith in him. So therefore,
18:21
by definition, if one person on the planet doesn't put their faith, then it is a limited
18:26
atonement, not a universal atonement. That's all that means. Now people can people then make
18:32
speculations about that further than what Calvin was talking about when he wrote the words limited
18:38
atonement. A very simple illustration would be this, if I put an article in the paper in Jacksonville
18:44
and said, "Free Chick-fil-A sandwiches today." Delicious. Right. Just because I decided to
18:52
buy grace, you can come get one. And then I show up to Chick-fil-A at the end of the day,
18:56
I've got to pay the bill, but I don't have to pay for every person in Jacksonville. I only pay
19:02
for the people that came and got the sandwiches. So therefore, it would be a limited payment.
19:06
It didn't. So that's what Jesus does. His sacrifice on the cross is sufficient to save
19:13
anyone who would believe. But it doesn't automatically pay the sin debt for people that don't put their
19:19
faith in him. And so his payment is limited. Okay. So I appreciate explaining that.
19:24
Several times you said these people put their faith in Jesus. And so this is the hang up
19:29
that we've had quite a bit when we're having these discussion, specifically with Matt and Ryan.
19:34
And Matt and Ryan look at us like, "Guys, I don't have the time nor the crayons to keep
19:38
explaining this to you." And so it's just one of those things to where it's like the stage cages
19:44
will basically say, "Look, you bring nothing. Like a dead person can't reach out their hand to be
19:48
saved from drowning." Amen. But then at the same time, it's like, "Well, they have to repent and
19:52
put their faith in something." But it's like, "Well, wait a minute. They don't bring anything to it,
19:55
but they have to repent." And so it all goes back to what C.S. Lewis talks about in Mirkrishianity,
20:01
where it's like, if we're all automatons, that is not a world worth creating. And if we are compelled
20:07
to do something, then that means that we don't have the will to choose, which means it means that
20:15
God is the author of evil, God made, Eve by the apple. Like those types of things are where this
20:20
like, it kind of the onion layers start to unfold. Yeah. But those are implications that we're putting
20:26
upon the Scriptures. The Scriptures just say what they say. Jesus just says, "You didn't choose me.
20:32
I chose you." That's what He says. And we all have human agency. Therefore, we are responsible
20:41
for things we do. However, if you're going to do this, if you're going to chase this down,
20:46
like how do you get saved? The real question is, who is the initiator? And the Scriptures say
20:52
that God is the initiator of our salvation. It's not us. It's not because we figured it out.
20:59
It's because He gave us the gift of faith that does not originate within us. That's
21:03
Ephesians chapter two. Can I ask you a question before you go to verse eight?
21:08
I actually just have a follow-up on that. Please don't lose your train of thought. So,
21:12
He gives them the... How do you word it? God gives them the... I literally just forgot what
21:20
you just said. The gift of faith. Okay. He gives them the age. He gives them the gift of faith.
21:24
Do they have the option to reject the gift?
21:28
I think His grace is irresistible. So, that's where I get into the... Why I get confused about,
21:35
okay, that sounds like compulsion. And I think about it in terms of my kids,
21:39
to where I'm like, man, if I'm like a died-in-the-wool Calvinist, like not only would I not even,
21:44
you know, care about preaching the gospel to my boys, I'm like, well, I hope to God
21:48
because my wife and I love to have sex so much that these boys that were created because of that
21:53
union aren't damned to hell from the beginning because they weren't chosen. I know your standpoint
21:57
of epistemology is showing. I thought it was just my chest hair. Okay. No, I'm not saying you don't
22:04
like it. No problem. I'm just saying it's just what it says. So, every conversation
22:09
about the nature of salvation is going to end up in Romans 9. That's where it's going to bottom
22:18
out at. And the sad thing is, the last thing that you're going to come to is... So, what was that, Clay?
22:28
Like, that's just it. The words say what they mean. I mean, the Bible just says that we are
22:37
predestined, that there are the elect, that it does. It does. Imagine not meeting... Who's that?
22:43
Gabriel that we meet at the early gates. Hey, Peter. I was thinking about that, like,
22:49
even this morning, I was like, I kind of wonder if we meet Adam at the gates who's sitting there,
22:56
and this is just my... I'm just thinking out loud, but Adam's sitting there going, "Oh my gosh,
23:02
another one came in. Thank God." Because like, he's literally the originator of the sin thing,
23:07
right? And I just... I mean, is he up there like rejoicing? Is he up there fretting? I mean,
23:12
I don't know. You know what I'm saying? It's like, sin came through Adam, and then because of that,
23:17
literally nobody follows after. So, nobody seeks him. I guess my question about Romans 9 would be,
23:24
isn't the context of Romans 9 talking about Israel, not like individual potential believers?
23:32
That's what you have to try to make it say if you don't want it to say what it says.
23:36
If you don't think God's sovereign over election and salvation, then that's the first and several
23:44
steps of hermeneutical gymnastics that you've got to go through to make it say that.
23:50
So, would it be fair to... Because again, every time I get into one of these debates, it's like,
23:54
I want to be fair. I don't want to come off as a zealot for a particular position. Would it be fair
23:59
to say that there are people that were created specifically to go to hell? That they never had a
24:07
shot? Like, so I'll put it back this way. That's not the way the Bible says it. That's the way I'm
24:13
holding it of what the Bible says about salvation would say. So, we talked about this in the
24:18
truck a little bit yesterday, so I'll bring it to the table so everybody else can hear it. So,
24:22
Elisa Childers and Tim Barnett wrote a book about deconstruction, and they talk about Derek Webb,
24:26
former singer of Cademan's Call, who's since renounced Christianity and dresses up and drag,
24:31
and he's like, fully went crazy, I guess. But there's a heartbreaking quote in the book from Derek Webb,
24:38
where he's like, "I was going through two divorces at the same time, divorcing my wife, but also
24:42
divorcing from the Christianity that I had always put my faith in." And this is a guy who considered
24:47
himself a Calvinist, a five-pointer, like those types of things. And then he said, "I just realized
24:53
one day that I wasn't elect." And I wanted to hate whatever he said, whatever quote was coming,
24:58
I'm like, "Derek Webb's a weirdo, I wanted to hate it." And I was like, "Oh my gosh, I'm so
25:01
heartbroken for him." And so, I'm wondering, is that a person that doesn't actually exist,
25:08
there's not actually a person out there that wishes they were elect, or is there somebody
25:12
that's literally on the outside looking in on the party and being like, "Crap, why can't I unlock
25:16
the door? Does that make sense?" It does. It just breaks down in regards to the actual character
25:22
and nature of man. If you want to love God, you'll love God. Period. But that desire does not come
25:31
from you. We are naturally rebels against God, and we want to be the Lord of our own life.
25:36
So, it's not like God is randomly... It's not like, well, every single one of us, my nature and
25:44
nurture are enemies of God, and he owes none of a salvation. And the fact that he would save any
25:49
of us is an unbelievable amount of grace. We, most people that are critical of God's
25:55
sovereign nature when it comes to salvation, actually think we all bring merit to the situation.
26:00
Like, that's the premise that you're standing on. So, if you remember, Calvin's
26:05
Tula came as a response to our aminianism. And so, our aminianism said, "Now, we're pretty good
26:11
people. There's proviniate grace, and we're all pretty good people, you know? We can reject God
26:15
anytime we want." That salvation was for all people. It was kind of the beginnings of a universalism
26:22
that... And that you can lose your salvation because it's up to you to gain it and lose it. So,
26:27
it kind of depends on where you are in your repentant cycle on the day that you die.
26:30
So, it's actually a terrible way to do theology just as a response to somebody else's theology.
26:37
So, I wouldn't... I don't even love to phrase Calvinism because there's a bunch of things about
26:42
Calvin that I wouldn't adopt like a state church and like baptized babies. But when you talk about
26:47
how salvation happens, you just got to read the words for what they say. And what they say is that
26:54
God is sovereign over salvation. It's not up to man. Now, I know we get hung up on words like
27:00
"choose" because you do choose. And in your current experience, you know, Joshua's not wrong
27:04
saying, "choose for yourself this day whom you will serve." That's for me and my house. We will
27:09
serve the Lord. So, from my perspective, I choose. It's how was I able to choose. And it was because
27:16
God saw fit for his own glory to open my eyes to the good news of the gospel. At note, I mean,
27:23
I didn't go searching for him and he overwhelmed me with his grace and saved me. And even as many
27:30
times if I was trying to run away, I just can't. I can't. So, the guy that deconstructs... Let me
27:36
tell you who never deconstructed. The men that stood on the mountain of transfiguration with Jesus,
27:42
the men that saw the resurrected Christ, because it wasn't just like a... They didn't have faith
27:47
in faith. They said, "We can't stop talking about what we have seen and heard." And so,
27:53
there's no doubt that a whole bunch of people are moving away from the church and what they're
27:56
moving away from is like a culture that they don't agree with. It's almost always a theology of the
28:01
pants though. I mean, if you just want to be honest about it, they don't get to sleep with
28:04
who they want to sleep with. So, they're going to reject God. So, they can be... They have always
28:07
been the God of their own life. What they're actually rejecting is the culture that they
28:12
don't want to be a part of anymore. To your point, even on the guys that witnessed the
28:17
transfiguration, one of those was Peter, right? And Jesus says to him, "If Satan would have you,
28:23
but I prayed for you, and I'm not going to let you go, and I know you will deny me,
28:29
but I prayed for you anyway, and I'm not going to let the enemy have you." And you could follow
28:36
the track down through history. Calvin taught about it. Luther wrote more about predestination
28:41
than Calvin ever thought of. And you could go back to St. Augustine, and then you go back to Paul,
28:47
but then you go back to the words of our own Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, in John 6, when he talks
28:52
about all that the Father have given me come to me because he has called them. I'm obviously
28:57
paraphrasing, but he's drawing people to him. And Ephesians 2, chapter 2, verse 8 says, "Grace
29:07
is a free gift, but it is a gift of God." And like your boy Matt Chandler says, "So that all who
29:14
are in the kingdom, no one walks in the kingdom with a limp, and no one walks with a swagger,
29:18
because it's not on us." And even those people that say, "Okay, predestination, God foreknew,
29:22
everybody would make the right choice." Even that is putting merit on ourselves, and it's putting
29:28
ourselves in the seat of God saying, "Okay, God foreknew, all these people would make the right
29:34
choice." It's God's grace. That's wrong, in my opinion, because again, that puts merit on ourselves.
29:42
Okay, God saw that I would choose. He saw that I did a good work, but I have no good works,
29:47
apart from Christ. I think the struggle isn't as much about the foreknowledge as it is about
29:52
causality, because just because I know that the sun will set in the West today does not mean that
29:57
I have caused it. So that's a silly example, but it just proves a larger point, which that's where
30:02
people kind of get stuck, because for someone that says, "Ardenly pro-life is I am." That's very
30:06
outspoken about that. I've never admitted this out loud, so I'm just going to admit it to you three.
30:12
No, don't share this with anybody. But when I advocate for laws that criminalize all abortion,
30:20
so that more babies will be born and all those different things when I celebrate the overturning
30:24
of Roe v. Wade and Planned Parenthood v. Casey and all those different things, my one concern is like,
30:28
crap. 10,000 extra babies were born in Texas the year that Roe v. Wade was overturned.
30:34
What if they're not elect? I mean, they're human beings from the moment of conception,
30:40
so you could realistically say like, "Okay, if they died via natural causes at three-week
30:46
suggestion that they will still have to have some sort of a…" Because again, with all this
30:55
stuff happening with the in-time stuff, I'm concerned that I have a three-year-old and one-year-old.
30:59
By the time this comes out, they'll be four and two, and I'm like, "They don't understand
31:02
anything." They barely understand how to not poop themselves. And so it's like,
31:06
what if the world ends before then? And they didn't have a chance to actually accept the gospel,
31:11
but it's like, "Wait a minute, it doesn't matter. They don't have to technically accept it,
31:14
because they're elected or not. They're in the team or they're not." So I'm carrying around this
31:18
incredible amount of anxiety and stress around it, because I'm a father now. And then when I see
31:24
these babies being born and I'm just like, "Crap, I really hope that they weren't meant to become
31:28
a Christian when they were 25, and the moon is rusting, and everything's going to go wrong in
31:34
the Middle East, and crap, Jesus is going to have to come back and fix it all." And it's like,
31:37
they're not going to have the shot. I know that's kind of ridiculous on being somewhat tongue-in-cheek,
31:40
but that's the real-life concern that I've had with people that just don't understand it.
31:44
And it's like, these are people with a lot of mental hardware and capacity that they're just
31:49
like, "Yeah, I see what the words say, but then there's the reality of, is this causal,
31:53
or is it just he foreknew?" So he foreknows it, but if he causes it, then that's literally
31:58
meaning he is picking and choosing who is going to be damned to hell in the pit of fire forever.
32:03
Roman talks about Jacob and Esau, and before they were even born, before they had a chance to act on
32:09
anything. Paul talks about Esau, I hated, but Jacob, I loved. Jacob was a [inaudible], man.
32:19
That guy was like ripping people off, and was not honest, and God said, even in spite of all that,
32:28
you will become the nation of Israel. I will rename you, Israel, before he had even been born.
32:37
So I would say, yes, God is sovereign overall, and to tulip, it should really be called stulip,
32:46
because it all starts with the sovereignty of God. If you're not on board with God's total
32:53
sovereignty, he's not a little bit sovereign, because we're all okay with going, "Okay, I want
32:57
this job, I just applied for this job, but if it's God's will, I'll step back and I'll let it go."
33:04
And we're okay with God's sovereignty in all these places, except for the one thing that he sent
33:10
his son to proclaim and to pay for in our salvation, we're not okay with God's sovereignty in that.
33:15
Like, I think that is a really hard thing to reconcile, and you have to do a lot of twisting
33:22
to get outside of what the Word says. God is sovereign, and God is in control of all.
33:28
And that's where I would say, yes. I guess that doesn't quite, and Eric, you're being awfully
33:34
quiet here, but I guess that for me, while I can appreciate that sentiment, it doesn't explain to me
33:39
why, and again, it's like trying to get into the mind of God, but it's like, if he sent Jesus
33:47
here to die for anyone that would accept him, why would he pre-decide who is going to accept him?
33:52
Like, well, why would he do that? Because then there are literally people that were born,
33:57
so Jesus was born to die, but then a bunch of us were born to die and go to hell and burn forever.
34:01
Yeah, I'm not saying you like it. Well, I'm just saying, I'm telling you, I've been doing this
34:09
a long time. If you read the words for what they mean, you're going to get to the place where there's
34:15
a bunch of stuff about God, you're like, I don't get it, I don't get it, I don't get it. And this
34:19
is what Paul is saying in Romans 9. So we're like a little piece of clay, and who are we to say to
34:25
the potter, hey, you got to explain yourself. That just is where it is. I don't know why God
34:29
would not elect everybody. I know the answer is for his glory. And so God is going to be glorified
34:35
in the life of every single person, whether it's through his grace or through his justice.
34:39
He will be glorified. And somehow when we get there, we will be cheering him on for both his
34:46
grace and his justice for all image bearers. We just will. That's how it will work. Right
34:51
now we see through a glass dimly. It doesn't make sense to us. I agree with you.
34:54
I wish he would let me pick, you know, I wish he'd let me pick who he saves.
34:59
There are people that I love very, very much. I've been praying for for a long time and I get to
35:03
leave all these strangers. I don't even know to Christ every week, but the people I love the most,
35:08
you know, won't love him. It drives me crazy. I'm not saying that there are things that aren't
35:14
confusing or that I don't understand or that I think if I were God, I would do it differently.
35:19
However, the scripture just says what it says. And if I'm going to make an error theologically,
35:25
I want to choose the camp that is the most God glorifying camp and not trying to take credit for
35:33
any of it. And that's the words of the Bible. And that sentiment, that's what lands me in the
35:41
Reform Soteriology place I am. Same. Yeah. And I was reading this last night and just wanted to
35:47
share it. And so you get your guys thoughts on this says God from all attorney did by the most
35:51
wise and Holy Council of his own free will freely and unchangeably ordained whatever comes to pass.
35:57
Yet so as therefore neither is God the author of sin or is violence offered to the will of the
36:04
creatures, nor is the liberty of contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
36:09
And then summarize it. In other words, God ordains future events in such a way that our freedom
36:14
and the working of our secondary causes are preserved. The allergens causes calls this
36:20
concurrence. God sovereign will flows concurrently with our free choices in such a way that our free
36:26
choices always result in carrying out God's will by free. We mean that our choices are not
36:32
coerced by outside influences. It is a complex interaction of wills and choices, but the Creator
36:38
God can handle any amount of complexity. And where was that from? I don't know. He wrote it.
36:44
Some do you don't think so? I think it was it was AI. It sounds like GBT. It sounds like John
36:50
Allen. It does. All right. Well, I have less understanding than I did before we started this.
36:57
And this is how it always goes. Yep. Go ahead and welcome to Calvinism. Thanks a lot. Well,
37:01
nope. I don't have my card yet. Hasn't come in the mail. So we've spent about 40 minutes
37:06
basically running around in circles and everybody looking at Kyle, like, how could someone be so
37:10
stupid? So how about we get to the Scripture, which isn't stupid? So let's get to Matthew.
37:13
No, I don't think it's nobody thinks you're stupid. And I think this can be like this.
37:19
This can be a point of contention. Everybody, even people who are in the Reformed can't read
37:25
stuff in the Bible. You got to wrestle with it. That looks like, oh, man, that's hard. There's
37:29
hard stuff in the Bible. What what I will always come back to is God saw fit to clothe me
37:39
in his righteousness so that on my day of judgment, I stand cleansed of my sin by the blood of Christ.
37:48
And I have brothers and sisters who are going to be standing there with me
37:53
and glory be to God that I get to stand there. How awesome is that? And I think that is what
37:59
should really unite us. And we can talk about this till we're blue in the face, but that's it.
38:06
And we're going to get more into that. But that is about the I'll never get over that.
38:10
That is if you run over by the grace train, if you ever get over that, like we should probably
38:18
talk and Kyle, I, you know, I appreciate your sentiment and I can feel your heart behind the
38:26
struggle and the wrestle wrestling that you're doing because I consistently do the same thing.
38:32
When I come down to though and look at tulip and whatnot, I don't know how else to resolve it.
38:39
Personally, like I want to resolve it a different way, but I keep coming back and I'm just like,
38:44
I don't I just don't understand God completely. This is my show. So I put the bandaid back on
38:49
what I'm ripping it off again because I have another question. And this and again, this none
38:53
of these are gotches. These are just honest questions that I wrestle with. And I'm just like, gosh,
38:56
I have no idea what to do about this. It makes no sense to me why any ministry or any church that
39:02
is Calvinist or five points, whatever would ever send out missionaries makes no sense to me whatsoever
39:09
because it's either there. It's either, but wait a minute. So again, I go back to my boys.
39:15
I feel like I'm left just crossing my fingers and hoping that James and Eli were because
39:20
I would rather, because I know the Bible says, yeah, we're supposed to be fruitful and multiply
39:24
and have babies and all that kind of stuff. But there's a bunch of stuff in the Bible that is
39:27
sinful that I do. And so it's like, why not just add that to the list in the off chance that
39:32
she and I created offspring that were damned to hell forever. In my opinion, it would be better
39:36
that those boys had never been born and I never knew them and tasted fatherhood than to have
39:41
two boys that are damned to hell for forever. I would never have kids. I would never share the
39:45
gospel with anybody because it's like, he doesn't need me to share. They're either on the team or
39:49
they're not. Yeah. And that's, that's where we went round and round with Ryan on Matthew 22.
39:53
Yeah. And I just think it is, it is not God doesn't need me to do anything, but I get the privilege
40:00
as a believer to be a part of his story and to be able to preach the gospel freely to people.
40:06
So I think that's where, I think that's where it is. It's like, he doesn't need me to do it,
40:11
but I get to do it. And that's my joy is getting to do that. And what if you choose not to?
40:16
What do you mean? What if I choose? I mean, I think- So what if, what if you were supposed to share
40:21
with the gospel with Canon, your son, and you just don't do it because you do actually have free will,
40:26
you're not a robot. And so you just don't. And so like for me, it's like, I feel no,
40:31
I feel a desire to share the gospel with my children because I, I'm like, well,
40:35
if all these Calvinists are flat out wrong, then I better, you know, preach the gospel to my boys
40:39
and show it to them every day. But it's like, if they are to select or not, then what does it matter
40:43
what I do? Well, I, I don't know how the gospel can't have a fruitful out, you know, can't be fruit
40:48
bearing. I mean, if you understand where, what you've been saved from, how can you not share
40:53
that with other people? That doesn't seem like it would compute that I'd be like, well, I'm just
40:57
going to be disobedient and not share the gospel with my kids. That would not happen because I
41:03
understand what God has done for me. Well, there's secret disciple and Matthew 27, he wasn't out there
41:08
like knocking down the door, sharing Jesus with everybody. He basically, you know, kept the light
41:12
under a basket. So what do we do with that? Well, to answer your questions, the reason that you
41:17
share the gospel is because God's not only sovereign over the ends, but he's also sovereign over the
41:21
means. So it would be the same reason why you should be obedient to Christ, even though we all know
41:27
that if you've put your faith in him, you will be glorified. So nobody, no actual believer would
41:33
say, therefore, it doesn't matter at all how I live, because I'm going to end up in heaven anyway.
41:37
Not at all, even though theologically that might be still, it's still off, but you wouldn't act
41:45
that way. Why? Because the, the love of Christ compels you. And so the love of Christ compels
41:50
you to share the gospel, which sometimes opponents of reform theology say this. However, Romans 10
41:58
exists because of Romans nine and Romans 10 says that, how are they going to hear if we don't preach
42:04
and how we're going to preach if we don't go? It, it, it talks about sharing the gospel to the very
42:08
ends of the earth because we serve a God that actually saves people. So that's why you share the
42:13
gospel because it actually works. And so you would say, I share the gospel because I have no other
42:18
choice but to share the gospel. And if I choose not to, then that is evidence of non-existent fruit,
42:24
as maybe John MacArthur would call it. I think you're being disobedient and spoiler. I guess that's
42:28
what I'm wondering. It's like, yes, there's a lot of layers. If you choose not to share the gospel,
42:33
you are being disobedient to what God has called you to do, spoiler alert, we're going to get to
42:36
that at the end of this chapter. Jesus basically says, all authority has been granted to me,
42:42
therefore go bring me my sheep. He doesn't say I'm physically going to pluck my sheep. He's saying,
42:48
Joby, Eric, Matt, Kyle, go bring me my sheep. How do you bring him his sheep by preaching the word?
42:54
So yes, if you choose not to, you are being disobedient, but we serve an amazing God who has
43:00
co-opted us into his plan of redemption for, for everybody. And we have a privilege. It's not,
43:06
it's not a, this isn't like a chore that you give your eight year old to go clean the baseboards.
43:10
And he's kicking and screaming. He's going, oh, I have to go to this. We get the privilege
43:15
to go share the good news that while we were still dead in our sin, Christ came and died
43:23
for that so that we might spend eternity with him. And so that is a, that is a privilege, not a,
43:29
I have to. So, so I, I certainly appreciate that. It doesn't quite answer my question of,
43:35
because I think the way that you said it is, if I don't do it, it's not just disobedience,
43:39
it's evidence that I wasn't saved to begin with, because if you weren't saved,
43:44
sorry, let me, I've got twisted in my own words. So if I wasn't saved,
43:47
that means that that makes total sense that I wouldn't want to share, because I'm not saved,
43:52
but there have been times me personally, Kyle, of a Donalife Man's podcast,
43:57
felt like I was being called to share Jesus with the, you know, the bartender or the, the gal at the,
44:02
you know, making my sandwich or something like that. And I just didn't do it for whatever reason,
44:05
because I had gas because I didn't feel like it, because my voice was hurting or something like
44:09
that. And I said, no, so does that mean I'm not elect, because I didn't, because I didn't do,
44:13
because where's the line of, oh, I was just being disobedient and a sinful turn.
44:17
Now that, I think that goes back to work, to workspace salvation. If you've repented
44:22
and believe that Christ is your Lord and Savior, if you've repented and believe in Christ,
44:26
you are going to heaven. That doesn't mean you're going to be obedient all the time. We are delivered
44:31
from the dominion of sin, but not yet from the presence of sin. We have to fight sin every day.
44:36
It's a reconcilable battle that we fight every single day. And part one of those sins might be
44:42
being disobedient to a pull on God's heart to share the gospel. Does that mean that that person
44:46
isn't going to come to faith? If he is part of the elect camp that is going to spend eternity with
44:52
God, no, that just means you weren't the means that God had for that day, because, because God is going
44:57
to be glorified either way. And if you're supposed to share the gospel with me and you refuse to do
45:01
so, but then I run into Eric, can he share as a gospel with me? Guess what? And I believe that. Okay,
45:06
great. God was sovereign over that entire situation. It just wasn't yours to share with me. Even though
45:12
you were called to obedience, just like Esther, she had chosen not to speak to the king. God was
45:16
going to save his people anyway. The beginning of this year, I made it more of a focus for me
45:22
to not say to people, I'll be praying for you, but to pray for them in that moment.
45:28
And I've done that in the past. It's not like that's been completely foreign, but it just,
45:32
I was like, you know what? I need to, when I, when I'm feeling compelled or somebody shares
45:36
something with me, I need to just say, well, let's pray. Let's do it right now. And I had a guy
45:41
come into my office. I was, I was needing to go. He came in late, lights are shut off,
45:46
wanted to talk about his wife and I'm treating super great guy. I mean, I could feel his absolute
45:54
love and compassion for his wife who has Alzheimer's and is losing herself. And he's losing her in
46:01
the process. And, you know, in the, towards the end of that conversation, he said, he just looked
46:07
me straight at me and he just said, you just want you to pray for us and pray that I do the right
46:12
thing. And I went there to the end, you know what I said? I said, I'll be praying for you.
46:16
In that moment, I felt the Holy Spirit saying, dang it, you pray for them right now. And I didn't.
46:24
And when I walked away from that, I felt sad that I had not been obedient in that moment,
46:29
but I didn't feel like I was unsaved. And what I felt was that the Holy Spirit was convicting me
46:36
of my disobedience and that next time I get an opportunity, I'm not going to make that same mistake.
46:41
So share your faith.
46:44
And it starts with you kids. I share your faith with the kids.
46:51
I think I'll just cross my fingers and hope they're on the elect team, I guess.
46:54
Read your Bible and share your faith.
46:56
Speaking of the Bible, here's this fancy segue after 45 minutes of me still being confused.
47:04
Hey, I think I teed it up a second ago. We're going to talk about the resurrection.
47:07
And by a second ago, I mean 45 minutes ago, we're here to talk about the resurrection because
47:10
guess what? It's Easter. It's Easter, guys. And so a very short chapter, but obviously a very
47:16
very important chapter. And so we need the sultry voice of the one and only Matt Grasmer.
47:22
Put that mustache on the mic and let's just do one through 10 and then we'll go from there.
47:27
You got it, Matthew 28. Now, after the Sabbath toward the dawn of the first day of the week,
47:32
Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb. And behold, there was a great earthquake
47:38
for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone and sat on it.
47:44
His appearance was like lightning and his clothing white as snow. And for fear of him,
47:49
the guards trembled and became like dead men. But the angel said to the women,
47:53
do not be afraid for I know that you seek Jesus who is crucified. He is not here for he has risen.
47:59
As he said, come see the place where he lay, then go quickly and tell his disciples that he has
48:05
risen from the dead. And behold, he is going before you to Galilee. There you will see him.
48:11
See, I have told you so they departed quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy and ran
48:16
to tell his disciples and behold, Jesus met them and said greetings. And they came up and took hold
48:22
of his feet and they worshiped him. Then Jesus said to them, do not be afraid. Go and tell my
48:28
brothers to go to Galilee and there they will see me. Can you read it again? I missed it. So
48:33
for anybody that didn't know what happened, I need to make a public apology to Zack Todd because
48:38
last week inexplicably about 55 minutes into the podcast, he just gets up and I'm like, oh no,
48:43
explosive diarrhea. That's obviously what's happening. And so no, apparently he had to be so
48:47
bad that he just like couldn't hold any morning got up and peed in the middle of the podcast,
48:50
which was the first that was the first ever in the forging table history. And here we are one
48:55
week later. The second occurrence has happened and it happened to yours truly. So I already have the
48:59
bladder of a small girl to begin with, but you know, just got some IV, some fluids and all that.
49:04
And so all of a sudden it just hit me like a ton of bricks. Oh, I'm sorry. But yeah, let's launch in
49:08
to the discussion of the resurrection. And obviously I think it would be appropriate,
49:11
Joby, for you to take over right here because you wrote if the tomb is empty and then anything is
49:15
possible. And you know, I could just save you guys the 50 bucks and you know, all the hours of
49:20
reading and just say, well, you know, Jesus came died, resurrected, it paid our sin debt. That's how
49:26
we are propitiated and it's a sin. It's a debt. It's a payment that satisfies, which is what
49:30
propitiation means. And that's it. Like you don't need to read the book, right? But if you were to
49:35
give some a little bit more commentary to that without demeaning me and calling me stupid and
49:39
looking at me like a disappointed older brother, what would you say about this section of scripture
49:44
here? So that what makes Christianity unique is we don't have faith in faith. We have faith in an
49:51
actual historical event that Jesus claimed to be God predicted that he would die and be resurrected
49:58
and then pulled it off. It is unique. Every other world religion and even cult, the thing that we
50:05
all do agree with, just bottom shelf, God is there and we are here and every religion other than the
50:14
good news of the gospel says, and here's what we must do to get from here to there. The uniqueness
50:20
of the gospel message is that God came from there to here to live the life that we should have lived
50:26
to die the death that we deserved and then to be resurrected, to put death to death,
50:32
and whoever believes in him, he's the proto-toco from the dead, the prototype of what it means to
50:37
be resurrected. And we are like the mass production, anybody that we put our faith in him. This is the
50:44
event. Last week we talked about, we talked about apologists and you know, all the kind of like
50:49
reasons for faith. The compelling evidence of the gospel message is this. I mean, it's an
50:59
over, like what are you going to do with the resurrected Jesus? How do you explain it?
51:04
These things happen. They were eyewitnesses, you know, the disciples, we all know these things. Nobody's
51:10
going to die for a lie. They all died as martyrs. He couldn't have swooned. What a goofy theory that
51:17
is that you're beaten almost to death, but not dead. You go into a coma, you stay inside a cave
51:23
for three nights, but wake up feeling like you've stayed in a holiday and expressed, and then jog
51:26
seven miles to Emmaus to have a theological dispute. Let me come on, man. This is silliness.
51:30
And die quietly in India or something like that. So the thing that makes the most sense is what
51:35
is written in these pages is that it actually happened. And I mean, everyone's kind of got their
51:42
favorite scripture and you know, you get asked a lot, Hey, what's your favorite scripture? What's
51:45
your favorite book of the Bible to preach from and all that? I think that was one of the, you know,
51:47
ask a pastor questions. I think it was yours. It's like, what's your favorite? And I think you said
51:50
James. So when I put you on the spot and you had just finished James, my name means it's Matthew 28,
51:54
six. He is not here for he has risen, as he said, as he said, as he said, like, and that's that's
52:00
the thing is like, everyone remembers that he has risen part because that makes a good bumper sticker.
52:03
Actually, a good teacher. It might, you know, might take that idea because you can't, you know,
52:07
sue somebody for using scripture because you can't copyright scripture. I heard, but it's like he did
52:11
say that this was going to happen, which kind of brings me to this, this issue where you get to
52:17
the end of this section where, you know, go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee. And so that's
52:22
probably all the disciples, not just the apostles. And there they will see me. And then a bunch of
52:29
the disciples went there and not all of them believed. And it's like all along the way he's
52:33
telling them, Hey, guys, I gotta do this. Like I'm trying to think of a corollary for me because I'm
52:37
kind of stupid and it's like, okay, what would someone have to tell me repeatedly? Hopefully my
52:40
wife's not listening because she probably has a lot of examples. But what can you tell someone
52:43
repeatedly? That's what I'm going to do. That's what I'm going to do. That's what I'm going to do.
52:46
And then you're shocked when the thing happens. And then you choose not to believe in the thing
52:51
happening that you saw with your own eyes. Like, I don't, well, I'm sure you're just going to say,
52:56
well, their eyes just weren't open. You had that look on your face. And so it's just like, they,
53:00
they, well, there wasn't their, their eyes to be open to begin with. Their eyes were opened by
53:04
something else. Right? Yeah, I got it. Maybe it's just, they were kind of still dealing with a shame
53:09
or whatnot. And we're like, is this, this seems like it's too good to be true. I mean, I, I don't
53:14
know if they, if I was thinking about John the Baptist and his doubt, I mean, I, John the Baptist
53:20
and Luke and those guys, John, they all thought the conquering Jesus coming to throw over throw
53:25
the Roman government. So it's just, they're still dealing with, I literally have this built up,
53:30
not only in the last however many years I've been alive, but also what I was, you know, what my
53:34
parents believe and they believe in all that. You know, some, I mean, it's, it's a quick turnaround,
53:39
you know, from believing one thing to having something happen that seemed devastating to like,
53:45
Oh, here I am, you know, well, that's the thing when you get these people. So the man who will
53:49
not be named Robbie Zacharias actually taught me this. So he, um, he talked about people that
53:55
would demand a millions, like if you give people that demand signs, if you gave them a million,
53:59
they would ask for a million and one. Sure. And there have been very famous atheists that's like,
54:02
Hey, what would it take for you to believe that God's real and it's some derivative of they would
54:08
need to write my name in the sky and basically say, Hey, buddy, I'm here believing me or other
54:14
people just basically say, if I were to see that writing in the sky, I would think that I had lost
54:18
my faculties. And so I wouldn't trust that either. And so they're basically creating a stance to
54:22
where there's, there's no way, no feasible way where they would ever like relent to that truth.
54:28
And so yeah, there, there could be any number of, of reasons why they would refuse to believe,
54:33
or I guess there's just one reason. I don't know. I don't know the words I'm supposed to use.
54:35
I'm just over here yapping. So somebody jump in and be smart. Well, I mean, you see it as his
54:39
ascension. I mean, Jesus gives a great commission and then ascends to the right hand of God the
54:44
father and the Bible says, and they worshiped and some doubted. I mean, bro, you want to talk about
54:50
not getting it. Like you're, you know, the resurrection cries, still get scorals on his hands,
54:56
gives a great commission. He's, I don't know if it's like rocket man style, like real fast or
55:00
if it's slow, whatever. And there are some people fall down and worship him for who he is. And then
55:04
there are people are like, I don't know, man, I'm not sure. It makes me feel much better about my
55:08
preaching when people aren't getting it. I'm like, if I always be the preacher, it's like if I
55:14
ironed man through the ceiling right now, like some people will be like, that didn't happen.
55:18
Don't trust your lion eyes, but God was glorified through it all.
55:23
Yeah. So why'd you look at me after you said it? Like, why can't there are two other people at
55:27
the table and two people not at the table? Why can't you just look at them? I don't know.
55:31
Cause I've known you the longest. Why don't you just pat me on the back as you say, like all poor,
55:35
poor dumb Kyle, poor ugly bald puppy. I don't think you're dumb. You're one of the smartest
55:39
people I know. To, to, to Joey's point, I wrote 1 Corinthians 15 verse 12 through 17. If Christ
55:46
has not been raised, your, our faith is futile. Like that's the crux of our faith is the tomb is
55:52
empty. And it's funny. I wrote this in my notes when, when it talks about the angel descending,
55:57
the stone that was used to trap Jesus in the grave was turned into a mere chair for the angel,
56:03
almost as if he's mocking this thing. Like this thing was supposed to keep this grave secure.
56:08
Nobody's supposed to be able to get in here. I'm just going to sit on it like it's no big deal.
56:12
Like I think that's, I think that's just kind of funny how God's like, yeah, this thing is,
56:16
is nothing. I moved it like it was no big deal. Can we actually go back to this and you may not
56:19
know the answer to this, Joby? But like every time an angel is described in the Bible, they're
56:24
terrifying. Yeah. They're like, I love the AI Bible, whatever on an Instagram or TikTok or whatever.
56:30
It'll be like, here's what people think angels look like. And it's like fat, stupid babies,
56:35
like shooting arrows in the sky or whatever. And then it's like showing how they're actually
56:39
depicted. Where, where did that come from? Is that similar to, you know, the reason why people think
56:44
Jesus was a white, white looking guy is because of, you know, the stained glass and all the,
56:48
the Catholic art was like that. But it's like, at what point did we, I guess, degrade angels in this
56:54
way? Well, the most, the most commanded thing in all the Bible, we see twice just in this passage,
56:59
which is don't be afraid. And you're right. Every single time the angels and the, the word,
57:05
and it just means messenger. So get this idea of like a little fat baby at Valentine's or
57:11
skinny chicks in their underwear that, you know, walking down the runway. This is not what we're
57:14
talking about. We're talking about, and think about the times when the Bible talks about angelic
57:18
warfare. So these entities show up that are otherworldly with great force. I mean,
57:26
the kind of force that when they put their feet on this ground, earthquakes happen. And they're
57:31
shining bright as the sun. And so people are terrified over and over and over and over.
57:35
Yeah. And there's, there's multiple times, I had to put a note here because there's multiple times
57:40
that these, these angels, you know, people start to try to worship them. I think that happens in
57:45
Revelation. He's like, no, no, no, that we're not going to do that. You don't do that. In contrast,
57:50
whenever Jesus reveals himself, they drop down and worship at his feet and he receives it.
57:56
And just kind of what we were saying earlier, like if that, if that, if he was not God,
58:00
then that would be inappropriate, right? And so just another point.
58:04
So it's been a while since I've looked at this passage, but in Exodus, or no Genesis when it's
58:10
either Genesis or Exodus, Moses is speaking to God. So he's in the presence of God. And the word
58:16
used to describe the presence of God, I think in Hebrew means like his hind legs. It's like it's
58:23
backside. So, so Moses sees God's backside, doesn't even see his face because we can't look on his face.
58:30
And he goes back to the people and they can't even look at Moses because his face is so bright
58:36
because he's seen the Lord's backside. And so then every time there's an angel,
58:41
like they're, they're literally in the presence of God. So they're seeing, they're seeing God face
58:45
to face. And then they're coming. And so that, that shining that we're seeing, that lightning,
58:50
white exterior that is blinding is from the presence of God, right? Is that correct?
58:57
Yeah. And if you will remember like in the Mount of Transfiguration,
59:00
when Jesus reveals his glory, the Bible doesn't exactly describe that except, I forget who says
59:07
what, but I think Matthew says his face shown like the sun. Luke says it was like lightning.
59:12
Mark is always the least detailed. He was like, his clothes were like bleached.
59:17
He's good. So funny.
59:19
But you see, you see that as a precursor to what's happening here. And you're right. It's in Exodus.
59:26
And Moses says, God show me your glory. And he's like, you can't handle my glory. It'll kill you.
59:30
Right? Because Jesus hasn't come and died yet. And so he hides him in the cleft of the rock,
59:34
covers him with his hand, and then just cruises by. He sees kind of like the afterburners of God.
59:38
Yeah. But it changes them. It physically changes. And people can't even look at him.
59:42
Correct. And well, I looked at the, you know, it says the angel of the Lord. So I got interested in
59:48
and then sort of an angel of the Lord of the angel of the Lord. And it looks like the Greek
59:54
and the original Greek that that participle is not the word. Anyways, that V or A wasn't there,
59:59
that it was added later. Because it got me interested in that when it says A, that's kind of more
1:00:04
generic, just A, just an angel. But when it says D and you know, there's a question of is this a
1:00:08
Theophany, like the presence of God in that moment through that individual.
1:00:13
So almost like in Sodom and Gomorrah, when it talks about the angel of the Lord, people think like,
1:00:17
oh, that was Jesus killing all those people. Is that what you mean? Yeah. That's, that's what
1:00:20
Christophany. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Preincarnate Christ. What are your thoughts on that?
1:00:27
I did a whole series on it. There's a bunch of times where Jesus manifests himself pre
1:00:32
Christmas day in Bethlehem. So King's, is it King's 19? Is it the 200,000 that he, that he
1:00:39
smites? Isn't that could be? I'm pretty sure that's one of the, the appearances that you would say
1:00:45
was, was a preincarnate Christ. Do you remember what you're that one? For anybody listening that
1:00:50
wants to go back in the annals? I don't find it. All right. Well, sorry guys, find it on your own,
1:00:56
I guess. I think it was a Christmas series. I think. Okay. All right, guys. Well, hey,
1:01:02
let's keep this train rolling. Whoever's up next. I think I would be you Browning. If you would get
1:01:08
11 through 15, let's go gladly. While they were going, behold, some of the guard went into the
1:01:13
city and told the chief priests all that had taken place. When they had assembled with the elders
1:01:19
and taken counsel, they gave a sufficient sum of money to the soldiers and said, tell people,
1:01:25
his disciples came by night and stole away while you were asleep. And if it comes to the
1:01:30
governor's ears, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble. So they took the money and did as
1:01:36
they were directed and the story has been spread among Jews to this day. So the conspiracy theory was
1:01:42
a foot ready to go here from the beginning. I mean, it was put in motion right from the jump.
1:01:48
And again, the instead of praising God for the fulfillment of his promise, for the fulfillment
1:01:54
of prophecy, they go to immediately try to preserve their political influence and political
1:02:02
positioning. I mean, the level of the level of narcissism is just astonishing. But it goes to this
1:02:08
day when you talk to, when you talk to Jewish folks, and there's certain parts of the Bible
1:02:13
that they won't read. Like I think we talked about last time as Isaiah 45, like they won't read it.
1:02:17
Like they just skip it entirely in schools where they teach, you know, the Old Testament.
1:02:23
And it's just like, how, like, how do you do that? Why do you just your, well, I know why,
1:02:28
because obviously if you have power, you want to keep it. And so it's just like, but if you know
1:02:32
that you didn't steal the body, and if you're pretty sure the disciples didn't steal the body,
1:02:36
well, then there's a pretty good chance that the guy said he was, you know, going to rebuild the
1:02:39
temple in three days, that what he meant was his body and not these buildings. Again, but they just
1:02:46
flat out missed it. Yeah, well, it's interesting because, from what I understand, the Jewish people
1:02:52
were, they believed in the resurrection and the final resurrection. I mean, John 11 and the death
1:02:58
in resurrection of Lazarus talks about like, who's the sister? It's not Martha. Martha, thank you.
1:03:06
Martha, she says, I believe, I believe you're the resurrection. And in that moment, I don't think
1:03:11
she's not talking about Lazarus being raised from the dead then. She's talking about the
1:03:15
end times resurrection of everybody. So they believed in this thing. It's interesting that
1:03:21
they believed in a final resurrection, but they couldn't come to grips with Jesus being
1:03:27
the resurrection and that he was resurrected right then. That's interesting to me that they
1:03:32
couldn't see that. And I'm not naive to think that I wouldn't be those people either. I'm thankful
1:03:36
that I have, I'm dropped in this point in time and I can look back and go, okay, there it is.
1:03:42
Yeah, this is the biggest case of impact bias ever. There's all the evidence that you need to
1:03:46
believe that he is who he says he is, but they have pre-decided they will not. I think you say this
1:03:51
sometimes, like if you're going to get in an argument with somebody or a discussion, you know,
1:03:55
if are you willing to change your mind if you... Yeah, if you were wrong, would you want to know?
1:03:59
Yeah. And correct. Yeah, and how they respond to that gives you your marching orders for the
1:04:03
... They probably would have said no. And they're like, no, no, no, no. We've got this thing figured
1:04:07
out. Well, yeah, guys, I mean it. Like, you know, because you can get arguments about scripture,
1:04:11
theology, politics, you know, how to raise your kids and all those types of things, but
1:04:15
you need to test the water first. Right. Like, if you were wrong about what you just said,
1:04:20
would you want to know it? Right. And if they're fertile soil, then yeah, let's go. But if they're,
1:04:25
you know, just steady in their opposition to whatever your position is, like, for the love of
1:04:32
everything, holy, just save your breath. Just don't go anywhere near it. Save their time, save
1:04:36
your time. Yeah, they're saving their face in the moonbitten to not in the day of judgment.
1:04:40
Yeah, absolutely. Well, let's hit this last part. So this wraps up Matthew 28 and gets
1:04:45
into the Great Commission. So Matt, go 16 through the end. You got it.
1:04:49
Now the 11 disciples went to Galilee to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them.
1:04:54
And when they saw him, they worshiped him, but some doubted. And Jesus came and said to them,
1:04:59
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of
1:05:04
all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
1:05:10
Cheaching them to observe all that I have commanded you and behold, I am with you always
1:05:15
to the end of the age." I mean, right here from the beginning, it's like, what you were saying
1:05:20
earlier, verse 17, and some doubted. Like, make it make sense. I just don't quite get it. And then
1:05:26
also right here, we see the Trinity literally explicitly put out here. So when people are like,
1:05:30
Trinity's never talked about in the Bible. It's like, no, the word Trinity is not like in the Bible.
1:05:34
It's like, but literally in one verse that there's all three of them right there.
1:05:37
Except for all the verses. But other than that, you're right.
1:05:40
But I mean, I do want to talk a little bit more about how could they've seen that and doubted.
1:05:44
Because it's not just, it's just not evidence-based. I mean, that's not the
1:05:49
initiator of salvation is not intellect or even evidence. Now, God may use, like,
1:05:56
based on how you're wired, God may use that kind of evidence to spark you, to open your eyes,
1:06:04
to believe. But it's just not, it's not always going to be that way.
1:06:08
Well, I think intellectual honesty is part of it too. Because like Lee Strobel,
1:06:11
he is very intellectual person. And he sought after the truth. And he sought, okay, I want to
1:06:16
disprove Jesus. But he was intellectually honest with himself. Enough to say, whatever I find
1:06:23
is what I find. And he found that Jesus actually existed. And there's more proof of the life,
1:06:29
death, burial, and resurrection of Christ than there is in Napoleon, which is insane to me to
1:06:33
think about. Like that there's more evidence out there than that.
1:06:37
Yeah, and I'm not anti-evidence whatsoever. I mean, I believe it, it just won't save you.
1:06:41
Sure. You know what I mean? There still has to come this knowledge, this trust, this
1:06:45
pistouo is the Greek word to not just believe that, but believe in trust in.
1:06:50
And so it's great. I mean, I think about it, you know, I preached yesterday and
1:06:56
a hundred and something people can't save. And I'm wondering, why wasn't it 600? Like,
1:07:02
everybody heard the same message? How come every lost person didn't get saved in our church?
1:07:06
It's just because that's how salvation works, you know?
1:07:09
Well, and I have from a very practical standpoint, you know, I think about my kids as I'm raising them.
1:07:14
You know, what can I do to change their hearts? There's absolutely nothing that I can do to
1:07:22
change their hearts. I can lead them to the truth. I can tell them what to do. I can coerce them
1:07:26
and punish them and threaten them to do what I want them to do. But I don't, I don't change
1:07:31
their hearts. It's the day they leave my house, they'll go do whatever the heck they want, you know?
1:07:35
So the next best thing I can do with the best thing I can do is really is to pray for them because
1:07:40
it's the Holy Spirit that'll change the hearts of my sons and my daughter, right? It's not,
1:07:45
it's not me. I, I may be a conduit or whatever part of just being a part of their life, but I'm
1:07:52
not the one that actually changes. I think that's a really good point. Spurgeon talks about the
1:07:56
violence of conversion and how we, we should be violently seeking conversion of, of children
1:08:02
and people who are nonbelievers. And, and this is a very convicting thing to me because I'm not,
1:08:06
I'm not the best at being intentional about prayer. And you could, you could teach your kids the
1:08:11
Bible. You can, you know, coerce them to go to church. You could do all those things. But if
1:08:15
you're not praying for your kids and you're not praying for your wife, you're not praying for those
1:08:19
you love, like you're doing them a real disservice. And there is, there is a, I really like how Spurgeon
1:08:24
talks about it. It's this, it's this violence of prayer. Are you on your knees, like incessantly
1:08:31
seeking after God's grace for those people, because it doesn't matter what you teach them.
1:08:36
God's the one that's ultimately going to do the work and he's going to get the glory.
1:08:40
So we should be praying. And that's, I would say that's probably the best thing to your point.
1:08:44
I agree with you. That's the best thing we could do for our kids is to pray for them.
1:08:47
I mean, we should do all those other things too. And again, that's our privilege to get to do that
1:08:50
as well. One months and months ago, I can't remember this guy's name for whatever reason,
1:08:55
well, not stick in my brain. But do you all remember that guy speaking at a G3 conference,
1:09:00
old guy, guy was probably in his 80s. And he was like, the problem is that we don't have
1:09:04
preachers anymore, we have teachers. I know you're talking about, but I don't understand either.
1:09:08
Like we had a bit of an accent. So he's probably from Europe somewhere or something like that. But
1:09:11
it was like, I watched this like 90 second thing. And the other guy who shall not be named anymore,
1:09:17
Alsterbeg. It was like right up there with like when Alsterbeg talked about the man on the middle
1:09:21
cross that I could come. Still one of the best, that's one of the best servers you could ever
1:09:24
listen to. And he didn't have to yell. So to all you guys out there that are yelling your punch
1:09:28
lines, you don't have to yell if the message is good enough. But this guy from the G3 conference
1:09:33
did yell and it made it even better because I was ready to run through the fire and roll through
1:09:38
nails. So I take do whatever this guy told me to do. Well, I'm a yeller. I can't help it.
1:09:42
Well, that's the thing is like every time. Well, that part of that is just because every time
1:09:45
someone can yell, I'm like, Oh, I'm so jealous. Like there's a guy that picks up a kid. There's a
1:09:48
guy that picks up a kid at our school. He's got the most booming voice and he never has anything
1:09:52
interesting to say. And I'm like, gosh, you're it's like the biggest waste. It's like when you see
1:09:55
someone that's like six foot six, but they can't run right. And it's like, you're the biggest
1:09:59
waste of genetics ever. I just can't really understand. Hey, back to the kid thing real quick.
1:10:02
The illustration church fathers would give us this. They would say that you cannot ignite your
1:10:08
kid's heart on fire, but your job in in discipling your kid and praying for your kid and taking
1:10:13
him to church and all of that. But you can gather all the kindling around their little heart so that
1:10:18
when the spirit of God moves, there's a lot to I like that. Well, that's good. That's what went
1:10:22
into preach 19 and 20. So this was in the moody commentary. So make disciples is an imperative
1:10:28
command. So that's like, no, you're going to do this. And then go baptizing and teaching. Those
1:10:34
are all adverbial. And so like, you know, making disciples could be translated to ads like,
1:10:39
urge them to become disciples. And so I think, you know, one of our first conversations,
1:10:43
Jobe, where we were talking about the Calvinism thing and all that. And I was like, Hey, why, you
1:10:47
know, why share the message that much and why be so fervent? And I think you said something along
1:10:51
these lines, it's like, I will beg people to come and come into the arms of the father. Like, I will
1:10:57
just beg, beg them to do this. And it really goes right there to where that one of those verses from
1:11:03
or one of the words there from 19 can be translated. And then in verse 20, talking about teaching. And
1:11:08
that's literally discipleship. And I did actually want to ask you about that unless you had something
1:11:12
else you want to say on 19, but I want to ask you about discipleship. It might be better understood
1:11:16
as you are on the go, therefore, like wherever you are on the go, whether that's to the ends of the
1:11:21
earth. So like go act one eight or as you go to work tomorrow. So it's not just this is not just a
1:11:27
verse for missions and missionaries. This is everywhere you go all the time as you were on the go,
1:11:31
the imperative is make disciples. Now, one of the things that I think we need to point out,
1:11:37
nobody thinks this verse means go find people that already know Jesus and teach them more things
1:11:42
about Jesus. It means go find people that don't know the gospel and share the good news of the
1:11:47
gospel with lost people. But the, that the church has had a real problem, makes a big mistake. The
1:11:54
moment you begin to separate or divorce evangelism and discipleship, watch out, man. These are not
1:11:58
two different things. It's all just the same thing that your first step is what we call evangelism,
1:12:05
which is sharing the gospel so people put their faith in Jesus. But then as you continue to take
1:12:10
those steps, that is what it means to make disciples. Well, I think there's, there's a Joe, Joe Boot
1:12:15
talks about the, the crazy astysizing of the Bible where we have made it a church book and
1:12:20
we've made it a, it's only for the church. It's not for everybody else. And so to your point, like,
1:12:26
if you, if we just give it to people who are in the church, like, we're not following the commission,
1:12:31
and I think it's John where he talks about, he gives us an order of operations. It's not just,
1:12:35
not to the ends of the earth. It's in Judea, Samaria, and then to the ends of the earth.
1:12:41
So there, like there's three, it's be where your feet are. It's actually, it's really what, okay.
1:12:46
Excellent. It starts in, it says, and you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you.
1:12:51
That's very important. So if you're wondering about sharing your faith, of course, I don't
1:12:57
think there's a bad time. Well, there is sometimes you try to make it about yourself, you know,
1:13:00
we've all either been there or seen people do this, but there is a power that comes upon you
1:13:04
when you receive the Holy Spirit or nudged by the Holy Spirit. And you will be my witnesses,
1:13:09
which sometimes we want to be the judge. There's already one of those. Sometimes we're trying to
1:13:14
be the prosecuting attorney. We don't need that. Sometimes you're trying to be the defendant.
1:13:17
Don't need that. You're supposed to be the witness. This is what happened to me in Jerusalem,
1:13:21
Jameer, Samaria, Judea, ends of the earth. Be where your feet are. That's to quote a dabbo.
1:13:27
Be where your feet are, man. So we're making my Clemson dabbo. Yeah. Oh, that's it. That's
1:13:33
something he says all the time. Be where your feet are. That's what he tells this guy, say,
1:13:35
be my bad Clemson fans. I didn't mean to offend. So I didn't know that. So what were you going to
1:13:39
say, Brown? What was I going to say? Oh, yeah. So what I hear you guys saying is, and this is what
1:13:47
I've heard too, that there are certain places in the world where Bible studies exist with non-believers
1:13:53
and basically what they're doing is they're teaching them the Bible, but these folks are moving
1:13:57
towards salvation. They just haven't accepted it. But when they understand it all, then that,
1:14:03
and they make that transition, they make that decision, then they're all, they're all in, right?
1:14:08
But are you saying that you're making disciples in that process of them going from non-salvation
1:14:16
to salvation? Or is a disciple a believer? Because what I wrote down, I put this, I was like,
1:14:21
I try to write my own definition. I put someone continually, a disciple, someone continually doing
1:14:27
their duty and then acting and speaking out of their delight, meaning that they're doing the basics,
1:14:33
reading their Bible, whatever, without being legalistic. But they're continuing to experience
1:14:40
the Lord in different ways. And then there's a natural outflow from that, from the delight that
1:14:44
they have and the joy that they have in the Lord. Does that resonate in my way off?
1:14:50
The way I define disciple, I mean, the Bible talks about disciples as Christians, you know, so
1:14:54
a simple definition is simply this is just taking your next step of obedience. That's what it is.
1:15:03
Discipleship is about taking your next step of obedience. That's what the disciples did. There
1:15:06
was a phrase in the first century that says, "May I be covered in the dust of my rabbi?" And so
1:15:12
wherever he went, you would go. But you weren't just trying to learn what he taught. You were
1:15:18
trying to become who he was. This is why when Peter sees Jesus on the water and says, "If that's
1:15:23
really you, call me to come out on the water." Because his understanding when he dropped his nets to
1:15:27
follow this rabbi is that he was going to be able to be exactly like his rabbi, not just learn all
1:15:35
the things. And so if Jesus could walk on water, then Peter could walk out there with you. And so,
1:15:40
and if we stop taking steps of obedience into the direction of the good shepherd by definition,
1:15:46
we are not following him. So that's all discipleship is. And it's a thing you never graduate from.
1:15:52
Well, guys, I think at this point, we put a nice little dent in Matthew 28, but I just want to get
1:15:58
your overall thoughts on the book of Matthew. And so I'll go first and we'll just go counterclockwise
1:16:04
around the table. So Joby, you'll be last. And so just very quickly, I have this tendency to skip
1:16:10
over things that I think I already know. And so if I'm reading a book and they have a scriptural
1:16:15
reference or a passage, it's like, I know what you're talking about. And then I get back to the
1:16:18
meat or whatever the author is trying to communicate. And it's the same thing if then why would we ever
1:16:23
rewatch a movie? So my favorite movie of all time is Gladiator. I watched it again here recently.
1:16:28
And when you know it, I recognized and noticed some stuff that I had never noticed before. Not
1:16:33
because some blog or some Reddit form told me to look for this thing at this particular timestamp.
1:16:38
It's just I noticed things about the story that made it come alive more for me. The same thing
1:16:43
happens with scripture because it's like, oh, yeah, I know what happened to Matthew.
1:16:47
But there is a bunch of parables that I was like, I know I've read that before. But it is as if I'm
1:16:52
reading this for the first time. And this there's those little details that kind of come through
1:16:57
that elucidate what you're reading to an even further degree. And so my encouragement to all of
1:17:02
you would be, you know, some of you, I want to say you're like a scriptural snob, you're like,
1:17:06
I'm going to dig into like something really hard. I'm going to dig into back or I'm going to dig into
1:17:10
numbers. Like, you know, I'm not going to do all this, like, pitley of John, you know, read the book
1:17:14
of John, like a loser, like, you know, and so you're one of those people. It's like, hey, man,
1:17:18
there's some beauty and simplicity. And like our church right now, our pastor is preaching through
1:17:23
expository Colossians, which is really short. But dude, it's a hammer. It is an absolute hammer.
1:17:29
And can you imagine just like buzzing through Colossians real quick on an afternoon, you know,
1:17:32
reading while you're having coffee or something like that? Like I couldn't imagine with all the
1:17:36
details we're getting now. So that would be my encouragement. But Matt overall thoughts on Matthew.
1:17:40
I mean, I think Matthew is establishing the authority of Jesus, which culminates in Jesus
1:17:46
claiming his authority, which is foretold in scripture, you know, Psalm 2. There's some stuff
1:17:52
in Isaiah. There's definitely a lot of Psalms where he's claiming his authority. I think my overall
1:17:58
view of Matthew is like the other gospels is our greatest enemy is defeated in the middle of history
1:18:07
because God came down and descended to us so that he could save us. And man, again,
1:18:15
I will never get over that. That is just such an amazing thing to think about that this guy
1:18:21
who is a rebel against God, who is a depraved sinner, who but then is clothed in righteousness,
1:18:32
because again, God came down in real history and in a moment in time and died for my sins
1:18:40
and then was resurrected and is seated at the right hand of the Father and has authority over
1:18:46
everything. Now my job is to go get a sheep. And that's pretty cool, man. That is so cool to think
1:18:53
about. Brownie, about halfway through this, I was, I don't even know how I came across it,
1:19:00
but I came across that visual that I sent to you guys. I'm sure you guys have seen it years ago,
1:19:04
but it's by Chris Harrison. And it was the, it just looks like a bunch of rainbow.
1:19:09
Like thing, you know, it's the, the, all the books, the Bible at the bottom and all the cross
1:19:14
references and things. And so 67,000 of them or whatever it is, some ridiculous. So as you're
1:19:20
going through that and just all the references to the Old Testament, New Testament just came alive
1:19:25
for me on that and that connection. It's just amazing to just try to comprehend just how
1:19:31
unified the Old and the New Testament are. So that was one big thing that stood out to me and that
1:19:38
was an encouragement. Then some were also while we were going through this, I was preparing for
1:19:43
my ABF Sunday school and we're going through a Holy Spirit, but I was doing something just
1:19:49
before that. And I ended up on Andrew Huberman podcast, you know, brain science guy. And he was
1:19:54
talking about like, when you, when you ask somebody to do a Thanksgiving list and you have them right
1:19:59
down, 10 things are thankful for, that has some value. He said, but if you can get someone to connect
1:20:06
with a narrative, that has more value. From the standpoint of what it does positively for our brain
1:20:13
and calming anxiety, areas in our brain, fear areas in our brain and promoting things like joy
1:20:19
and peace and whatnot. And he said, so, you know, the research research would suggest that if you
1:20:26
would connect yourself with a narrative and continually come back to that narrative,
1:20:32
that that has a positive and lasting and almost a permanent can have a permanent change on your
1:20:39
brain and how it functions. And of course, immediately I was like, oh, some of my favorite movies would
1:20:44
be like Rudy and whatnot. And so I could connect with those, but then it just dawned on me. I was like,
1:20:49
what better story than the one that I'm living right now and the Bible and Jesus and coming back
1:20:57
to that and connecting myself with that narrative is going to remove that fear. It's going to remove
1:21:04
that anxiety and give me the peace that only God can give and only Jesus can give. That and just
1:21:11
being able to see from his birth to his death, to his resurrection, just exactly what he's done
1:21:18
in my life. I can't, you know, and again, like just my encouragement is you're right. You can read it,
1:21:25
but when you study it, when you get in a group and you talk it through and you hear other people's
1:21:30
points of view, it brings it more alive, makes it more convicting. And anyways, that's it.
1:21:39
Very good. Joby?
1:21:40
Well, really based on Matthew 28, this is what our fate is all about. It's about the
1:21:47
resurrected Christ and a phrase that I say all the time at our church, if the tomb is empty,
1:21:52
anything is possible. This comes from right here. This means that you can believe God for the
1:21:57
impossible because you have put your faith in what according to man was impossible, that the
1:22:03
son of God came, lived, died. I mean, Dornell did and three days later walked out of the grave.
1:22:08
And if he walked out of the grave, so can we. And so if we believe that, may that lift up and build
1:22:15
your faith to continue to believe God, believe God for your lost friends, your kids, that he's
1:22:22
going to save them, believe God for whatever the thing is that you need to believe him for.
1:22:26
If the tomb is empty, anything is possible.
1:22:29
All right, guys, we have wrapped up the first gospel in the history of the forging table.
1:22:34
Don't worry. There's three others. We might get to those eventually, but we're going to
1:22:38
leave that there for now, but come back here next week where we are going to be digging into
1:22:41
drumroll, please Proverbs two. So we're going to take a little bit of a jaunt into the Proverbs.
1:22:45
And then about a month from now, we'll let you guys know what next big study that we're going to be
1:22:49
doing. But before we let you go, we are going to be doing a quick resilience boost and adult to life
1:22:53
our mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and
1:22:56
physical resilience. So one to remind you that there's a cross way forging table starter set that you
1:23:01
guys can check out. You can get a huge discount on that. Check it out in the show notes. And again,
1:23:04
I think I mentioned earlier, we are supported by Logos Bible software. It is the most robust
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1:23:28
guys. Oh geez, I've been here from the beginning. And Joby, thank you so much for being in town in
1:23:32
the flesh here at the forging table so that we can get after it guys. We'll see you next week.
1:23:37
Thank you guys for listening to this episode. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe,
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Records. The links are in the description. I'm your host Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back
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