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1:18
This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast.
1:21
I'm your host Kyle Thompson.
1:23
Let's get into it.
1:23
Welcome back to the forging table.
1:26
The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with content that
1:30
forges spiritual, mental and physical resilience.
1:32
At the forging table, you'll see a group of regular guys, normally forging spiritual
1:36
resilience by digging into God's word.
1:38
And we're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with us.
1:40
That's Zach, OG Zach, and that's OG Ryan.
1:43
But for those of you on YouTube and rumble, you already know what's happening on the other
1:47
side of the table right now. But for those of you listening on audio, I'm going to drag this
1:50
out awkwardly for as long as possible here at the beginning because we have a special guest
1:55
on the forging table. We normally have guests, but they're not normally this special.
1:59
And the thing that's the most special about this guest is he is literally, literally the
2:04
biggest fan of Undaunted Life, a man's podcast that doesn't live in my house or come to my house
2:09
that often, guys, he is an enormous deal. He's almost as big as his arms are.
2:15
Like this guy is just, I'm just trying to like lean it out and, you know, kind of drag it out
2:19
as long as possible. But without further ado, I would like to welcome my friend, my mentor,
2:23
Pastor Joby Martin of Church of 1122 to the forging table. Welcome.
2:27
Long time listener for some color.
2:29
Okay. Hey, how long do you thought of that on the plane, didn't you?
2:32
I thought about that one second ago.
2:34
So what's funny is what everybody already knows is if you've been a fan of the forging
2:38
table for a while, which by the way, guys, just to kind of remind you, I was sitting around with
2:43
Ryan and Zach and Matt and Eric and we're just kind of talking about this idea of like,
2:49
Hey, what if we did like a Bible study on the podcast? Like, what would that look like?
2:52
How could we make that super not lame? And then we just decided we were going to burn the ships
2:56
and try it. And of all the compliments we get about what we do with Undaunted Life,
3:01
this is the thing we get complimented about the most because it's like, man, it just seems like
3:04
real dudes like getting after the Bible and all that, but, but we're not without our flaws, right?
3:10
You know, we, some of us have master's degree. Some of us have fancy jobs, but there's always
3:15
this like floating fifth member of the table hovering over the table and judging us for like
3:21
pronouncing things wrong or exegeting scripture improperly or saying things that are just downright
3:26
heretical. And when we do that, what do we normally say? Sorry, Joby. Yeah, we say sorry, Joby,
3:32
but for this recording, because Joby's going to be with us for the penultimate and the ultimate
3:37
chapters of Matthew, I don't want us to say that every time we make a mistake. So what we did is we
3:43
just made some shirts that say sorry, Joby on and if you look off camera, everybody in the room
3:50
has a sorry, Joby shirt on right now. So yeah, that jacket was hot like fire. And I just couldn't
3:57
wait to get it off. But there is some of those for my children. Well, in that box over there,
4:02
there's one with your name on it. So not on the shirt. It's just like on a little baggie. So maybe
4:06
we can throw that on for the last one. So is this going to be acceptable? Or do you still expect us
4:09
to say it out loud? No, it's it's accessible. For sure. Okay, it's a station. It's a station.
4:16
Don't start started. I don't think yeah, it was me. It was me. It was a station is wait,
4:21
sensationalist. Okay, but wait, do we know who said sorry, Joby, first? I think it was Magrasmire.
4:26
Okay, okay, it was Grasmire. So shout out to Magrasmire. He'll be here for next week's episode. But
4:31
shout out to him. He's gosh, he's like, he's the OG. He's the OG and he's so silky smooth. I'm so
4:37
jealous about everything except, you know, his mustache can be, you know, a little bit, you know,
4:41
here's the thing with Grasmire. If I didn't mess up as much, he wouldn't have come up with sorry,
4:44
Joby. That, you know what? So without you, Joby may not even be here. That's it. He says he's a
4:49
first time caller, but he's not a first time texture. No, that's not it. And what's funny is when you
4:54
send me texts telling us how dumb we are, I just forwarded straight to them. It's like an email
4:58
that someone sends to HR, I just sent it right back to the manager. It's like, I just, there's
5:01
nothing I can do. It's like your dad shaking his head after you miss that ball and strike out.
5:05
I'm gonna try to help. What was the joke we were talking about last night? It's like,
5:08
you don't really understand what it's like to feel pressure until you have to hold the flashlight
5:12
for your father. Oh, yeah. Like during like a project, like, has anyone had a good flashlight
5:16
like experience with their dad? Never. Never? That's a no. No, Zach? No. Anybody from the Peanut
5:22
Gallery ever had a flashlight thing with your dad? Does that ever work out? Well, no, we see a
5:26
bunch of head shaking. No, guys, so tall the dads out there. Let's keep that up. I would say,
5:30
hey, chill out on the flashlight thing, but no, let's keep that thing going. But we probably should
5:35
talk a little bit about the scripture today. But one of the reasons, Joey, that I wanted to have
5:40
you on and why I mean, we plan this five months ago or something like that because we're meeting
5:46
about the forging table and I was like, wouldn't it be cool? This is like, I don't know, like a year
5:50
ago. I was like, wouldn't it be cool if we did like one of the gospels and we ended on Easter?
5:54
Like, how cool would that be? But then obviously with your two books that are out now, if the
5:58
tomb is empty and then the next book, the follow book, anything is possible that you're basically
6:04
taking us through the narrative that we see in Matthew and you're taking us through the narrative
6:10
of the cross, which is where we're marching to today. So I guess for you, I think everybody at
6:14
this point has heard our interviews, heard our ask a pastor segments. Everyone knows your
6:18
pastor is not a shock, but I guess for you, my question would be before we dig into Matthew 27.
6:24
Why let those be the first books? Because there are some prominent pastors out there that, you know,
6:28
they kind of take the chill route with the first couple of books. It's basically, here's a few
6:34
ways to be a little bit better at not sucking so much like it's that those types of books,
6:38
but it's not like this. Like, I remember when I think Chandler's first book was the explicit
6:43
gospel and it was like, whoa, like that's his first book. That was like good grief. You're setting
6:48
the bar so high, but then to deal with what you deal with. And if the tomb is empty, it's like,
6:54
it was almost from my perspective. And then you can correct me if I'm wrong. From my perspective,
6:58
it almost felt like you were like, Hey, if this is the only book I get, this is the one I'm leaving
7:02
humanity. And so it's like, you know, forget the, you know, how to lose a bad habit in 10 days,
7:06
like we're just going to get after with the gospel from the beginning, but fire away.
7:09
Yeah. So, um, you know, I plan out a church in 2012. It got real big real fast. And when that
7:14
happens, you get invited to do all those kinds of things like speak all the conferences and write
7:18
the books. And, you know, and I was, I was, I thought a lot about what the first book would be.
7:26
The most popular downloads we have at 1122 are I did a series called act like men.
7:31
I was like 2016 a long time ago. Great. We're going to redo that one. And I've talked to
7:37
Song of Solomon a couple of times. Those are by far the most popular, well,
7:43
it works. Because everybody from like perverts to like, you know, American everybody loves it.
7:48
So Ryan, you're covered. I will, but you only get your first one once, man. Right.
7:54
And so I'm just the gospel guy. So I want to talk about the gospel, man, the cross and the
7:58
resurrection. That's it. And so that's what the first two have been about. So why not make one
8:03
long book? Because you could literally, so to those out there that haven't read the two books,
8:06
you can finish the last, last chapter of if the tomb is empty and literally roll right in
8:12
to anything as possible. And I almost tell people to do that because if you just
8:16
re pick up a book called anything is possible, it's like, Oh God, another one of these books,
8:19
like another one of these books to tell me if I believe I can achieve and all those types of
8:22
things, but it makes perfect sense in light of what the first book said. So what was the,
8:27
I guess the decision making process behind, Hey, we're going to split this up. We're not going to
8:30
make this one voluminous thing. Was it the detail you wanted to put into every chapter? What was
8:35
the thought process? Yeah, it just we, we, you know, as I wrote the book, that's how we thought
8:39
about it. Like one big long process, not, not two different ones. The reason is too, it just
8:44
comes down to like publishing and what editors think and all of that. So I mean, the phrase,
8:50
if the tomb is empty, anything is possible, it's just really one phrase. So that's how it's like a
8:54
two part volume. Yeah, very good. Well, before we launch in, did you guys have any questions for
8:59
him about any of that setup stuff or church 1122 or the books or should we do a little Bible chat?
9:04
Let's do a Bible chat. Okay, Ryan, let's do Bible to don't be so angry about it. Okay, like we'll
9:08
get to the Bible. I know for those of you that are fans of forging table, you might recognize Ryan
9:13
as the voice that you can barely hear as you're driving down the highway because he's whispering
9:16
into the mic. But he came today with his big boy voice and his big boy pants. He's ready to get
9:20
after I am. I want to read first too. Oh, you want to read first? Yeah, when it's the shortest one.
9:24
So that's okay. That's okay. This is good. So guys, we're digging into Matthew 27 and it's going to be
9:30
a little bit of a different cadence here because we got a little bit more time to get into these
9:34
episodes. So I don't know how long the episode is going to be, but you can probably look at your timer
9:37
and see that's a little bit longer than normal. So we're going to be taking intermittent pauses
9:41
throughout. So feel free to follow along with Ryan. If you would lead us off, let's read the first
9:45
couple of verses here. When morning came, all the chief priests and the elders of the people took
9:50
counsel against Jesus to put him to death and they bound him and led him away and delivered him over
9:55
to pilot the governor. So pilot served under Tiberius. But Joby, one of my first questions from the
10:02
beginning here, and this isn't just going to be ask a pastor the whole time, but there are some
10:06
things that I don't feel like I have enough mental horsepower to understand. But when it said
10:11
specifically that the people took counsel against Jesus, that all seems to be very specific language
10:17
because we know that they met in the middle of the night. They got quorum basically in the middle
10:21
night, which they were not really supposed to do or allowed to do, but they did it to make sure
10:25
that there wasn't a kerfuffle that was caused by all of their meanderings. So when it talks about
10:31
people taking counsel against Jesus, like what specifically was happening in this moment? Well,
10:36
so there are multiple trials that Jesus goes through. He's taken the Caiaphas' house. But the
10:41
problem is the chief priests and the Jewish leaders do not have the authority to crucify.
10:45
And so essentially what's happening is they are trying to figure out what sort of charges can
10:50
they muster up against Jesus to get pilot to be the one that will finally slam the gavel and say,
10:56
we're going to crucify this guy. And we find out that pilot doesn't really want to do this. I mean,
11:02
to the point where his wife is having dreams and coming to him, we're married guys, like,
11:07
if your wife's like, Hey, I don't think you should do this. That's what's going on. And so he's trying
11:12
to find whatever kind of out he can simultaneously, the Jewish leaders, they can't do this on their
11:18
own. They have to partner together with pilot to get Jesus crucified. So there's some schemes and
11:24
strategies going on to make that possible. Well, and certainly there are some schemes going on
11:29
when Barabbas was brought out. And I think that that's certainly something that we'll get to.
11:34
But anything else in the first couple of verses, I think it's great that are funny,
11:38
not even great, but that they waited till morning so they can show that they just
11:42
Lee came to conclusions about Jesus. Yeah. So they didn't want to bring in each,
11:46
they brought the charges, but they didn't want to do any convictions until the morning.
11:49
So their whole sham trial was just a sham. And so they wanted to bring legitimacy to it.
11:55
It was, that's what I got from it. Yeah, the one thing I'd say is just after reading Eugenia
12:00
Constantino's book, especially just the amount of fiction of the King of glory,
12:04
shout out. Yeah, just think the amount of, you know, the political system they were dealing with,
12:10
how calculated everything was, it really brought it home. And really how sinister,
12:14
I think, and smart, these guys were from a serpent perspective and trying to get this thing
12:18
executed. Yeah, they were just very conniving. And it, I mean, that was something that was not
12:24
really readily apparent to me until I really read through it this time where I was like,
12:28
because yeah, you know, they kind of can I, but it's like, no, this is like, it's special level,
12:32
but it kind of had to happen this way. But let's go ahead and go into Judas. And so Zach,
12:37
if you will hit verse three, and we'll probably wrap up with verse 10, unless somebody goes and
12:43
uses the pause button. Then when Judas, his betrayer saw that Jesus was condemned, he changed his mind
12:50
and brought back the 30 pieces of silver to the chief priest and the elders saying, I have sinned
12:55
by betraying innocent blood. They said, what is that to us? See to it yourself. And throwing down
13:00
the pieces of silver into the temple, he departed. And he went and hanged himself. But the chief
13:06
priests taking the pieces of silver said it is not lawful to put them into the treasury since
13:12
it is blood money. So they took counsel and bought with them the potter's field as a burial place
13:17
for strangers. Therefore, that field has been called the field of blood to this day. Then it was
13:24
filled, fulfilled, what had been spoken by the prophet Jeremiah saying,
13:28
and they took the 30 pieces of silver, the price of him on whom a price had been set by some of the
13:38
sons of Israel, and they gave them for the potter's field as the Lord directed me.
13:43
So I think in here, we talked about in previous week that 30 pieces of silver, that was roughly
13:49
the cost of a slave during that time. So very interesting. I don't think that's an accident,
13:53
the amount that he was paid, but right from the beginning. And so maybe this is peeling off the
13:58
predestination band aid with you, Jack wagons on the other side of the table. But so my question
14:03
is here by Jack wagons, you mean Bible readers? Oh, yeah, that was roughly the translation I was
14:07
using. Yep. So in verse three, it says that if you just change his mind, I also says repentance
14:13
in some. Hey, I'm getting there. Okay. I'm the one. I have the last questions. All right. So
14:18
I'm going to literally just going to write down what I wrote because I had so many burning questions
14:22
and I'm like, I'm never going to get through chapter 27 if I have this many like problems at the
14:26
beginning. So he chose to betray. I think we would all agree about that. And then he chose to take
14:32
it back. Right. And so it begs a few questions that I'm struggling with is was Jesus ever, sorry,
14:38
was Judas ever a disciple of Jesus? Was he ever an actual disciple? Did he have salvation and then
14:45
lose it? So I kind of know where y'all stand on that, but in my head, I'm like, wait, did he have
14:49
it and then lose it? Was he a Christian when he killed himself? Because there are people,
14:54
I did read some commentaries that said the moment he committed suicide was the last moment,
15:00
like there's that tells you right there that he wasn't a Christian. And in my head, I'm like,
15:03
so no Christians ever committed suicide is basically the argument they're making somewhat
15:07
backdoor. And then the main argument that I got reading commentaries was he wasn't repentant,
15:12
he was remorseful. And so as I've told people before, like I grew up thinking repentance was
15:17
really being sorry, like, no, I'm really sorry. I didn't realize it was like, no, this isn't about
15:22
face. This is going the opposite direction. But I had some consternation here because
15:26
obviously you could be in Jesus's presence for three years and not be his disciple.
15:30
Like when he came back, there were people that are like, I don't know. That's kind of weird and
15:35
looking Middle Eastern Jew. I don't think I want to follow him anymore. Like it was, it was strange.
15:39
But I had, I had some real heartburn with with these verses. So far away.
15:44
Go ahead. I feel like I should let you go. Oh, don't default in the whole time.
15:49
All right. So when it comes down to it, I mean, I, I had, I read repentance. And so when I think
15:55
of repentance, I think of the Greek word, Menetonia. If I did, I pronounce that right. You nailed it.
15:59
All right. You didn't have to say it. I know I didn't have to say it on the shirt.
16:03
It's already on my shirt, right? Don't get cocky when you get cocky because I'm going to mess
16:07
up the next word. I know I am true story. But the Greek word used at this time was metallom
16:12
in regards to his remorselessness. So he was showing remorse. Well, he wasn't showing true
16:20
repentance. Okay. So I had, I had problems reading that because I read it first. And I was like,
16:25
man, repentance. Like we all repent like this guy, guy repented. But I don't know how you
16:30
can follow Jesus for three years and then sell him out for a slave's wages. Like, I don't think
16:35
you really took his message to heart. I don't think you, you know, it's like the, the seeds that,
16:41
that we read about Matthew that get caught up by the, the weeds, like his, he got caught up by
16:48
the weeds and never grew and never, it never fastened even though he was hearing the message.
16:51
So I feel like I kind of jumbled that, but I want to go ahead. No, that's, that's such a heart. I'm
16:55
going to jump in for Joe becomes in here. But I mean, like, as an example, a lot of the words that you
17:00
just use seem to be action oriented. How could you follow for three years and not do something,
17:05
which implies will, right? Since we're ripping the band aid off here, it's a difficult thing
17:10
to understand. I go back to this one just as an example though, when people say, if I saw Jesus
17:15
do X, there's no way that I couldn't believe, but clearly it's not the case. And I think when
17:21
it comes down to is that, you know, juice was chosen to do what he was supposed to do. It was
17:27
pretty destined. He was appointed by God. Right. You know, we've, we've heard a lot of, in the past
17:33
about, you know, that he gets us commercial. I hate to be the one to bring that up about him
17:37
washing the feet during the Super Bowl. You're excited to bring it up. I'm not excited to bring
17:40
it up. I love to talk about that. I know. I'm not going after he gets us. But what I'm going
17:44
after is there was a lot of people that were making comments that Jesus washed Judas's feet.
17:49
Correct. But Jesus also sent, and this came from Mark Driscoll. I like Mark Driscoll sometimes.
17:54
Sometimes I feel like he's a little out there, but he goes, Jesus also sent him to hell.
17:57
Well, if you want to be popular, Oman, just be critical. That's true.
18:03
So what's the question? Was Judas a Christian? A follower of Jesus?
18:08
Ultimate question. Yeah. No, because it says he was filled with the devil.
18:14
And so a person that is possessed by the Holy Spirit cannot be possessed by the enemy. So that's
18:20
how we know that he wasn't. Let me just tell you, the difference between Judas and Peter,
18:25
for me as a pastor of a big church, is terrifying. Because from the outside, until this moment,
18:36
you can't tell the difference. Yeah. You would actually think if, okay, so before the betrayal,
18:43
if we all followed the disciples around for three years, and you said, one's going to be the boss,
18:48
and one's going to, it's not even a believer, and it's going to sell out Jesus. Who do you think
18:53
it is? Are you just going to sell out? We would be like, yeah, it's Peter, man. Jesus literally
18:57
called him the devil one time in Caesarea Philippi. So he's got to be the worst. And Judas is the
19:02
treasurer. He's the best. He's taking care of the money squared away. And he's so squared away,
19:06
because at one time somebody's wasting money. And he's like, hey, you know, we could feed poor
19:10
people with that, which is always everybody's default. And I'm just telling you, I stand on stage
19:15
every single weekend, open the Bible and everybody looks saved to me. You know what I mean? They're
19:20
all just looking. And there are people that are around Jesus and have not surrendered to him. In fact,
19:30
previously, when Jesus says, one of you will betray me, the Bible says that 11 times the
19:38
disciples say, is it I, Lord? It just says all the disciples say, is it I, Lord? Curios is the
19:44
is the word. Is it I, Lord? Is it I, Lord? Is it I, Lord? And then Judas says, is it me Rabbi?
19:49
He didn't call him Lord. He didn't know him as Lord. There's a lot of people that show up in church.
19:57
And they're Judas, not because they're like some kind of evil, I'm going to betray Jesus,
20:02
but they know him as a teacher. And they appreciate all the good things that you get from following him.
20:08
They just don't know him as ever, Lord. So I guess I'm I'm when you have ministries or pastors
20:15
or marketing campaigns that try to get people Jesus curious without a full-throated preaching
20:21
on the gospel anywhere, whether on their website or whether in their sermon content or whether
20:25
in their follow up, they do have that. So I'm talking about things just in general. So obviously
20:29
you brought up, he gets us. So that's that's what's in the back of my mind. So it's like,
20:32
I forget who talked about cheap grace, but there's also like, yeah, so there's cheap grace, but then
20:37
there's also soft gospel, which is soft gospel is, Hey, be Jesus curious. Jesus was this really cool,
20:43
really soft spoken, but awesome teacher that lived a couple thousand years ago. And boy,
20:48
oh boy, can he teach you ways to be better at life? And as opposed to, Hey, you're at the
20:52
brave center and the only way that you have a chance to be before Holy and just God and eat
20:57
some days, put your complete faith in him, right? Not that he existed, but that his death on across
21:03
and resurrection somehow counted for you. So that's, I guess my struggle is not every single sermon
21:08
has to be gospel the whole way. It's just not all or nothing. There's just a beginning to it. So when
21:12
Jesus invites Zacchaeus to come to his house, Jesus invites himself to go to Zacchaeus's house,
21:17
everybody's grumbling. And he doesn't share the gospel with Zacchaeus while he's in the Sycamore
21:22
Tree. There is, in fact, the way it's written in Luke 19 is it's hard to, it says, and he received
21:30
him joyfully and it's specifically written. So you can't tell if Zacchaeus received Jesus at his
21:37
house joyfully or if Jesus received Zacchaeus joyfully because both are true. And there was a bunch of
21:43
grumblers because Jesus wasn't doing it right. They're like, that's not the right guy. And you
21:48
didn't explain the gospel while he was in the Sycamore Tree. And you didn't mention repentance.
21:53
How dare you? That is the group. And so the moment a commercial comes out that doesn't go the way
22:00
that all the conservative Christians think it ought to go, I'm just telling you, you are in the
22:05
class of the grumblers going, you're not doing it right. That's just what happens, man. And so
22:12
for the he gets us people. I know, like I meet with him, you know, I just met with him. These people
22:17
are very interested in people coming to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. So they might have a
22:24
strategy that you don't like, which is fine, man. That's fine. So so do your strategy. Cool. There's
22:30
this incredible quote by D.L. Moody. D.L. Moody was the evangelist that led Billy Sunday to Christ and
22:36
Billy Sunday led Billy Graham to Christ. It's pretty awesome. Okay. And there were all these
22:41
critics because he did like this large scale mass evangelism strategies back in the day.
22:46
And there's this quote where he says, it's evident that you don't like the way I do evangelism.
22:51
I can see your point. There are things about what I do that I don't like. And then he says this,
22:56
but I like the way I do it better than the way you don't. Yeah, that's my statement.
23:02
That's what I would I would love it. Listen, I'm just telling and especially on platforms like
23:06
this, you want to be popular, be critical. And everybody will gravitate to it. It would be really,
23:12
really great. If Bible believing believers would band together and pray for one another and help
23:20
one another, share the gospel instead of just throw stones every single time a thing comes up.
23:26
So the way that I kind of split the baby on this, you know, a couple of months ago,
23:29
when the he gets us thing had just happened was I made my grumblings known because I think the
23:36
grumblers have a point sometimes, depending on the context, made the grumblings know, but then the
23:42
the takeaway or the action item was basically, let's not let's have faith. I don't think
23:48
is the way I said it, but it's like, let's give them the benefit of the doubt that there's going
23:51
to be some fruit here that we just can't see. And then it's like, but all of us should be discerning
23:56
and should be looking at ministries like that. Same thing, whenever I first started,
24:01
because I've talked a lot about it, Andy Stanley on this podcast, when I first started to see things
24:05
kind of sour with him, I was like, this is weird and it didn't make me want to lean away from him
24:10
and made me want to lean in to be like, am I hearing this right? Right? Am I hearing this correctly?
24:15
And then when you repeat yourself so often in the in the exact same tone in the exact same,
24:19
you know, way on the same subject matter, it's like, okay, I don't think there's any mystery here.
24:24
If we keep getting off on super duper tangents, we're gonna, we're gonna like, you know,
24:29
it's gonna be like a three hour long episode, which wouldn't be the worst thing ever, but you
24:31
know, hey, there's chili cooking downstairs. And I heard you guys wanted it. So we need to get into
24:35
a few different things. Because I asked Joby a few months ago about this passage. So Ryan,
24:39
if you could hit versus 11, 14, yeah, I'm sorry, one thing, this passage sums up fundamentalism,
24:47
like no other passage. The next passage or the one we're in right now. Okay, so
24:51
the religious leaders get the money back and they're like, oh, we can't put this money in the
24:57
church offering, but we can kill an innocent guy. Yeah, like the disconnect there is
25:06
unbelievable. What do you mean by fundamentalism? Exactly. How would you define it?
25:10
Fundamentalism is when you add law is what Eve did in the garden. Okay, God said don't eat it.
25:16
She said we can't even touch it. No, no, that's not what God said. I got it and said that you're
25:20
making up stuff because you think God needs help. And so you can get obsessed about some rules,
25:26
especially ones that you've made up and ignore what God's law actually says. That's fundamentalism.
25:32
Gotcha. Yeah, I kind of noticed that too, where I was like, they found a way they were conniving
25:38
again. So it was easy for them to give that money to kill an innocent person. But now they got the
25:43
money back. They're like, we can't use that. That's that's blood money. It's like, yeah, you created
25:47
the blood money. Right. And now you're going to be like, Oh, look at me. Look how great I am.
25:51
I'm going to go buy a potter's field for these poor people. It's like stealing a car and getting
25:56
into a chop shop, chop shop gives it back to you said, we don't need these parts. And you're like,
25:59
what this car stolen? Like I can't drive this car. I'm going to give these things a good will.
26:04
Yeah, buddy. You brought me the stolen car. Like what's going on here? Yeah. All right, Ryan,
26:08
hit 11 through 14. All right. Now Jesus stood before the governor and the governor asked him,
26:13
are you the king of the Jews? Jesus said, you have said so. But when he he was accused by the chiefs,
26:19
chief priests and the elders, he gave no answer. Then Pilate said to him, do you not hear how many
26:24
things they testify against you? But he gave him no answer and not even a single charge. So the governor
26:31
was greatly amazed. So not giving him an answer that was fulfillment of prophecy in Isaiah 53.
26:37
Obviously, there's an attempt here to move the charge from blasphemy to sedition because the
26:43
Jews don't have the power to execute. So in Rome isn't going to execute somebody for blasphemy,
26:49
because they don't give a crap because they have a pantheon of gods. It doesn't actually matter.
26:52
And so my question here though was that it hit me like a ton of bricks and I text all the
26:56
fortune table guys and no one had a readily available cogent answer, which is, how did Matthew know
27:03
that this even happened? Because Matthew wasn't there. How do we have this interaction between
27:09
him and Pilate and Pilate's private chambers? Because in another gospel, it says they were
27:13
in his private chambers here. So presumably it's him, Jesus and a servant or two. So how do we know
27:19
that this actually happened and why does Matthew know? Well, John, they did hang out with the
27:23
resurrected Jesus for several weeks. I mean, so John 21, while they're eating a fish breakfast on the
27:30
seashore, Jesus could have filled them in on all these things. And the spirit of God is carrying
27:37
them along as Matthew is writing this. I mean, I kind of agree. Wouldn't you do that? If you
27:45
finally totally ask those questions. And he does. Yeah, like, what'd you guys talk about? 100%
27:50
Yeah. So that makes that makes a lot sense than what I was going to be like divine intervention,
27:54
you know, like the Holy Spirit maybe gave it to him. But I would find that more possible.
27:58
Well, and also we have here, this is a passage that's actually brought up quite often by Muslim
28:04
apologists because they'll say that Jesus never claimed to be God. Oh my gosh. And you know,
28:10
they look at the statement right here and they add tonality to it. And so it's like, Pilate says,
28:14
are you the king of the Jews? Jesus said, you have said so is how they would read it. It's like,
28:19
okay, well, when you read it that way, like, I mean, you kind of got a bad reading. There's
28:23
a Bill Burt joke in there somewhere, but it's like, no, no, that's not how they said it. It's not
28:26
how they said it. There's there's that's that's not how it was communicated in this. And when you go
28:31
back to the original language that was written down in the original ancient Galilean air make
28:36
that I was spoken in, it's like this would have been like super duper affirmative, triple stamp,
28:40
double stamp, like whatever, like that's that there would have been no question here.
28:43
No, that person could read the Gospels and come away thinking that Jesus did not claim divinity.
28:49
No, he did. Yeah. Over and over. I mean, just the gospel of John in and of itself,
28:53
seven times he makes these IM statements, every single one, he's claiming equality with Yahweh
29:00
every single time. Isn't he basically doing this quietly, though, as well? Because like, if,
29:05
you know, was it CS Lewis has said he either had to be a lunatic savior or
29:11
lunatic or lord? Yeah, I'm not you know, CS Lewis better than I do him, you know, when he's asked
29:17
that question, he says, you know, you've said so, you know, like he knows it. And if he was a liar
29:23
or a lunatic, at this time, they're trying to put sedition charges against him to have him crucified.
29:28
Do you think if he was a liar or lunatic, he would have been like, yeah, yeah, no, I'm not or,
29:33
you know, trying to get out of whatever he's whatever predicament he's in. But no, he like
29:38
stays true into who he is. Well, again, I think going to Eugenia's book, that was a literate that
29:43
was a device that they used is my understanding back in the day where he's basically saying,
29:48
that just came out of your mouth. So you're confirming for yourself everything that you just
29:54
stated and it's on record now. And I'm just basically saying you have said so. Yeah, don't lose sight
29:59
of what's the the meta narrative here. Jesus has just come out of the garden saying, I'm about to
30:06
drink the cup of the wrath of God, not my will, but your will be done. Right. Could Jesus talk
30:11
himself out of this, of course, but to do that would be disobedient to what he is going to do,
30:17
which is go to the cross. And on a very like personal Bible study application,
30:23
Jesus never never sees a point in trying to defend himself because he knows that his father
30:33
will defend it. Man, it is something I'm trying to learn in my life. Like when people are critical
30:39
of me, whether it's my family, my wife, my church, whatever, there's this thing in me that just I
30:46
get so defensive. Jesus was never defensive because he believed that God had the whole world in his
30:53
sense. And so here, even in this state where he could be right, he could make his case and he doesn't.
31:03
He just trusts the sovereign hand of his father. One, I think as well, this is kind of a micro
31:08
example, but you know, I'll get hate mail and DMs and stuff like that for any number of things.
31:13
And if the criticism is warranted, I will accept it and move on. If it's not warranted,
31:21
I'll either ignore it or say some along the lines of, I'm sorry, you feel that way. Lucky for you,
31:25
there are over five and a half million podcasts in existence. Perhaps you can find one that is
31:29
better for you. And that's not going to offend your sensibilities. And I mean it, like there's no
31:33
sarcasm. There's no like, you know, underhanded disc there. It's like, no, I mean, like, you're
31:38
not going to like every flavor of ice cream. So why would you keep going to the restaurant and like,
31:42
or go into the, you know, the ice cream place and getting the same flavor that you know you hate.
31:47
It's like, at this point, it's not me. That's the problem. It's that you're stupid and that you
31:50
keep doing the exact same thing. Now, I don't say that, but I do think it. So, you know,
31:53
a favorite thing to do and I get these long, because I mean, too, the criticism is incredible.
31:57
Right. And so I just, my favorite thing to do is, you know, it'll be like, I can't believe you said
32:02
this or do whatever I'm doing. And I just go, you're probably right. And just sing. And just that,
32:07
you know, in their mind, they're like, did he understand? I don't know what that means. I
32:11
think it drives them crazy. It's my favorite. You're probably right. You're probably right.
32:14
Oh, one thing I wanted to say here, and I'm interested to get your thoughts too, but
32:19
right before I came here this morning, I reviewed kind of this little presentation
32:22
from a couple of months ago. And it was basically just a study of, you know,
32:27
Jesus was fulfilling prophecy during all the stuff we're reading today. And to go back and sort of
32:33
try to methodically see what he was fulfilling and when those things were discovered in time that
32:38
sort of give proof to this in a way, it's pretty incredible. So the two things that I saw were,
32:45
when you did the the scrolls that they found, the Dead Sea Scrolls, a fragment of Psalm 22
32:52
was found 100, I think it was 100 BCE. So 100 years before Christ walked or lived. And then also
32:58
Isaiah 53. And those things were shown to have been written, I think Psalm 22 is 1000 years before
33:05
Christ and Isaiah was 750 before. So just the fact that he's going through this fulfilling all of that
33:12
is is incredible. And then we have actual documentation to show it. Chris fiction was not even invented
33:17
when those two things were written, right? I mean, the Persians would invented a few hundred years
33:20
later in the Romans would perfect it. So the idea of being pierced for your transgressions, that
33:27
wouldn't have made any sense. They had to be like, that's some kind of poetry, you know, like some,
33:30
you know, some song, you know, like, I don't know what that means, but some artists wrote it.
33:33
And one of the things that I've always, I will get here in a minute, but one of the things I always
33:39
thought was strange is when the Bible, when it says, and Jesus was crucified, and it just says that,
33:44
I'm like, you would think there'd be way more ink in the Bible about the crucifixion. And I thought
33:50
for a long time, I thought, well, because everybody knows what it is, but the reality is all the ink
33:54
was written 1000 years before in Psalm 22. It's play about play. And I say 53.
33:58
And my, my offer to that thought would be Matthew is writing to a mainly Jewish audience. And at this
34:07
time, crucifixion to the Jews, even saying the word was like, it was anathema, it was like,
34:14
please don't say that around me, like it's like, I don't, this maybe is a little bit of a dramatic
34:19
example, but like maybe someone who's experienced real sexual assault, and you just casually start
34:24
talking about rape. It's that feeling of like, Hey, please don't, please don't talk about that.
34:28
Like that's too much like that's talking about crucifixion, because it was the only dignity
34:33
that the Romans afforded the Jews that they crucified as they wouldn't crucify them naked.
34:38
They would honor their, their laws against, you know, showing, you know, body parts and things
34:44
like that. That was the only dignity that they gave them. And so it makes perfect sense that Matthew
34:48
writing now that I think about Matthew writing to a highly Jewish audience wouldn't be like
34:52
Eugenia Constantino and like, Hey, let's give 350 pages to exactly what was going on here and
34:57
why it was so excruciating. We got a lot more ground to cover. So let's, let's pick back up. I forget
35:02
who read last. So whoever's next up between you two, let's get into Barabbas. So that's 15 through 23.
35:08
It's me. Now at the feast, the governor was accustomed to release for the crowd, any one,
35:17
any one prisoner whom they wanted. And they had then a notorious prisoner called Barabbas.
35:22
So when they had gathered, Pilate said to them, whom do you want me to release for you? Barabbas
35:27
or Jesus who is called Christ, for he knew that it was out of envy that they had delivered him up.
35:33
Besides, while he was sitting on the judgment seat, his wife sent word to him,
35:37
have nothing to do with that righteous man, for I have suffered much because of him today in a dream.
35:43
Now the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowd to ask for Barabbas and destroy Jesus.
35:49
The governor again said to them, which of the two do you want me to release for you? And they
35:54
said, Barabbas, Pilate said to them, then what shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?
35:59
They all said, let him be crucified. And he said, why? What evil has he done?
36:07
But they shouted all the more, let him be crucified.
36:10
So I don't want to park here too much because I mean, we're really getting to the crucifixion.
36:14
So I kind of answer my pants to talk about the worst thing and the greatest thing that's ever
36:18
happened. But this is, this is Pilate attempting to get bailed out. Like he's like, okay,
36:24
Barabbas is known. Like I don't know who a really notorious, like, okay, be like we found
36:29
bin Laden and brought him up to America. And we're like, okay, we're going to release
36:33
this random person that we just arrested, or we're going to release bin Laden. Like, come on,
36:39
like we know we're not going to release bin Laden. So it's that times like about 1000. And so, but
36:45
the thing that was so that stuck out to me this time that never has was the shrewdness
36:50
of the Sanhedrin, when he talks about verse 20, that the elders persuaded the crowd because this
36:55
is the same crowd that just a few days ago, laid palms and screamed, Hosanna. And like,
37:01
I can't think what would have to happen, like how I could be persuaded to think somebody is my
37:08
conquering hero. And within a day or two, be like, no, man, so let's kill this guy. But obviously,
37:16
their persuasions worked. It was just, it was a very deft political move. I think it happens every
37:20
week. I think all across the world, on Sundays, people gathered together and cry out, Hosanna
37:28
means save us. And the most important word in there was the us. It wasn't save. And when they did not
37:36
get what they want, which was a better life for themselves, they betrayed Jesus. So the difference
37:44
between Sunday and Friday, we see it all the time. And I do it. I do it. You know, like,
37:51
I want God to do for me what I want. And then when he does it, I'm like, what's wrong with you?
37:55
Why aren't you not obeying me? Well, I think we also covet, you know,
38:00
like one of the things I think I read back in there was they were envy. The Pharisees and
38:05
Sadgeses were envy of Jesus or the High Priest were envy of Jesus of his power. And so,
38:10
sometimes we covet other people's blessings or we covet other people's livelihoods because,
38:15
you know, we live in a day and age where, I mean, we're not poor. I mean, if you live in the United
38:21
States, like, compared to the rest of the world, you're not poor. But I feel like, and I grew up in
38:26
the prosperity gospel. And so when you see people with more than you, you're believing for more,
38:30
and then when you don't see it, some of those people's faith just dwindle. You know, they're
38:34
like, God, I asked you for this, but you didn't even come through. And so I feel like that's where
38:38
the envious and the covenant come through where Joby talks about. We can go on Sunday, we can worship
38:42
God for who he is. But on Monday or Tuesday when something didn't happen, it's so easy to blame him
38:48
and become envy. Yeah, I think one thing too about this that kind of scares me that I think we see a
38:54
lot today is it seems like Pilots attempting, according to this, to have some kind of a dialogue,
39:00
you know, based on reason. And basically, the crowd is being leveraged with just a repeated
39:06
statement, you know, crucify him, he's not our Lord, and they just continue to go through this
39:10
process. And so you're not dealing with any sort of a reasonable discussion, you're dealing with
39:14
emotion in a lot of ways. And so if I go back to things, you know, a lot of movements have occurred
39:20
in our country, for instance, over the last couple of years, and it just seems like they're
39:23
reiterating the same things to get a crowd behind them. And so my question would be, you know,
39:29
how can you be effective in the face of that? And what does that look like?
39:34
I think pilot pilot wants to believe. I mean, he is being drawn towards it. He's making a case
39:38
for Jesus. He's saying he who do you want? It's exactly what you were saying, Kyle. Do you want
39:42
this, this guy, Barabbas, by the way, his name means son of the father. So if you are a bar
39:47
means son and Abba is probably the name for father. So all the, all the lights on your gospel
39:53
dashboard should be going on right now, right? You're like, hold on, wait a minute, there's more to
39:57
this than what it just says. And so pilot is saying, you want me to release Jesus, who is called
40:03
the Christ, you know, the guy that walks on water and can feed us all with a little lunchable,
40:08
and taught those cool stories about the kids coming home and all that stuff. You want this guy,
40:12
or do you want the guy that might rape you, kill you, murdered you? And however, he gets to this
40:19
point, and he's thinking this is going to cost me too much. It's going to cost me too much,
40:24
because his, his only job in regards to Rome is just to keep the peace. And I don't mean peace,
40:31
like the spiritual kind of aspect of, you know, like, Philippians two kind of peace or Philippians
40:35
four kind of peace. I mean, they're like, you can believe what you want to believe. You can still do
40:39
your temple day and kill all the goats seems like an awful waste of goats, but whatever can do the
40:43
thing as long as there's not an uprising, I will, I will get a good review from the Caesar and I
40:48
get to keep my job. And he's in cahoots with the chief priests. So the chief was supposed to be the
40:54
chief priest for his life, but when, but the Roman government would only put the chief priests in
41:00
charge who worked well with them, right? So the chief priests are getting a serious kick back here.
41:07
Yeah. And so Jesus is going to ruin it for them too, because they don't get to be in power with
41:12
the Roman governor, if all these people start following the guy that just wrote in on a donkey.
41:17
Yeah. But I think the pilot holds guilt here because he could have basically said, no,
41:23
this man is innocent. I'm letting this go. Sure. But he doesn't like he tries to find every way out of
41:29
it, but he is pilot. He is like the governor of, of, was it Caesarea? Or is there a Philippi? Yeah,
41:36
Philippi where he could have said, Hey, no, if I'm going under the laws of Rome, there's no sedition
41:42
here, but he chooses like, and this is coming from the moody commentary that I'm reading when I was
41:47
reading this through, it's just like he chooses to go along. One you find a way out for sure. Yeah,
41:53
you also have to understand there's no more powerful entity on planet earth than Rome.
41:59
Yeah. And this idea that you could break Rome down brick by brick. I mean, we're cocky as Americans
42:05
because we've been around a couple hundred years. It's like, at this point, they had been the dominant
42:09
force on the planet for centuries and centuries. And so pilot was, it had to be self preservation,
42:16
because there was nothing like, Hey, this isn't an empire issue. Like this is, yeah,
42:21
this is a Caesarea Philippi issue. I'm the governor of this crappy province. Like, I just need to
42:26
do well so that Tiberius doesn't, you know, Tiberius doesn't take my pop my top knot. And so, um,
42:31
I think that there's a lot more that could be said there, but we do. Politicking. Yeah, absolutely.
42:35
We do need to move on. Hey, one thing. Sorry. Yes, please. The most important question in the world
42:40
is in this passage. What shall I do with Jesus? Who's called the Christ?
42:44
Your answer to that question determines everything about your eternity.
42:52
The most important question that you could ever deal with. Well, there's so much here. So maybe we
42:57
should park just for another minute. You mentioned it just briefly earlier about if your wife receives
43:02
a dream. So I don't know about you guys, but my wife and I were like normal husband and wife.
43:08
We fight. We disagree. We have a lot of things. We don't agree on some things core level things
43:11
that we agree on. But my wife came to me and said, boo, I had a dream last night. I don't think
43:16
you should talk to Joby anymore. I'd be like, Hey, man, it's been real. Like, thanks. Thanks
43:21
for everything. Thanks for wearing our hat. But my wife had a dream. And she thinks that Jesus told
43:25
her to stop it. And the reason why I say that somewhat tongue and cheek and ingest. But what about
43:30
Muslims that are in these countries where there are not missionaries on the ground in Iraq or
43:37
Syria or in these other places. And Jesus is coming to Muslims in their dreams is happening.
43:43
And the Bill Kureshi, right? He wrote a couple of books that have been on my book list of
43:47
seeking a law, finding Jesus. You know, if there's several others, I can't remember the names right
43:52
now. But that's how he came to faith in Christ. And he was talking with what you could call,
43:56
basically a Christian apologist is good buddy, David, I think was his name. And they're just
44:00
working their way through the Bible, answering each other's arguments. But it was a dream from
44:04
Jesus to where in that moment, he had the choice whether or not to believe that. But it's like, gosh,
44:08
for pilot, it doesn't show here that he ignored his wife's commander, all that. You could see
44:15
that there's consternation in this guy whose entire life has been about control. And in this moment,
44:20
he's like, all right, let me control this. They're not going to let Barabbas out. Now they're going
44:24
to let Barabbas out. And then we get to the next part to where it's like, he finally feels like his
44:27
hands are tied. And I know that you've met Billy Graham, I believe. And what what I hear when I hear
44:34
you say that is his comment of, you know, a decision not to decide is a decision not to, you have to
44:41
engage in this. Everybody has an answer to this question. What shall I do with Jesus who was
44:47
called to Christ? That's the ultimate question. All right, let's go to the next section, Ryan,
44:50
if you wouldn't mind, let's go 24 through 25, please, or 26. So when pilot saw that he was gaining
44:56
nothing, but rather that riot was beginning, he took water and washed his hands before the crowd
45:01
saying, I'm innocent of this man's blood. See to it yourselves. And as all the people answered,
45:06
his blood be on us and our children, then he released for them, Barabbas and having scourged,
45:14
scourged, scourged Jesus delivered him to be crucified.
45:18
So here's my question with this. This has always been confusing to me. So somebody at the table
45:23
that maybe has a degree in theology or something like that or Bible that maybe you can clear it's up.
45:27
If pilot washes his hands of the situation and gives him up to Jesus up to the Jews,
45:35
then why do the Romans execute him? Why was it the centurians that carried out the execution of
45:40
pilot said, because that would almost be like, you know, General MacArthur saying, hey,
45:45
I washed my hands of these next several battles in World War II, like I'm just not responsible for
45:51
that. Well, if he said that, then then the ships don't move, the planes don't fly,
45:56
like the troops don't march. Like, why did there? Why did the Romans carry out the crucifixion?
46:01
So he's abdicating responsibility for the guilt of Jesus. I mean, basically what he's saying is,
46:07
this is not my idea. This is your idea. And but here's the key theological reality.
46:12
You don't get to absolve yourself. You don't get to declare yourself innocent. Yeah. Only the
46:18
blood of Jesus does. And dude, what the what the crowd says, may his blood be on our head,
46:23
that is either the greatest curse or the greatest blessing, depending on your posture to Jesus.
46:29
Right. Is it the blood of Jesus washes away your sin or you are held accountable for your sin,
46:37
not being atoned for? And they brought their kids into it.
46:41
Yeah. Well, that's the thing I wrote down. I was like, his blood is on Israel and their
46:46
children. But what is it meant for for them? Like, his blood was to wash away the sins,
46:50
but they wanted to put his blood like, let his blood be on us as we'll take responsibility for his
46:55
death. But and they do, but his death needed to be done for them. Absolutely. I mean,
47:02
there's a lot there, but as per usual, we got to move on. There's still a whole lot left here in
47:06
Matthew 27. So Zach, if we're going to get into Jesus being mocked now, so verses 27 through 31,
47:12
please. Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the governor's headquarters and they
47:18
gathered the whole battalion, battalion before them. And then they stripped him and put a scarlet
47:25
robe on him and twisting together a crown of thorns. They put it on his head and put a
47:30
read in his right hand and kneeling before him, they mocked him saying, hail, king of the Jews.
47:37
And they spit on him and took the read and struck him on the head. And when they had mocked him,
47:44
they stripped him of the robe and put on his own clothes, put his own clothes on him and led him
47:50
away to crucify him. So this also is a fulfillment of a prophecy that he would be mocked in this way.
47:56
Again, if y'all have anything to add here, that'd be great where we get into the crucifixion next.
48:02
Again, I can't stress enough how important the book by Eugenia Constantine who has been to me.
48:09
Zach was the one that turned me on to that book because I've read descriptions of scourging.
48:13
I've read descriptions of how the Romans got to the point of perfecting crucifixion
48:18
and how they used it as a tool of control, lining the roadways to certain cities, every
48:25
hundred yards or so, another crucified body. And they would leave them up there as a warning to
48:30
anybody to not try to do anything seditious towards Rome. But I would just highly recommend
48:35
her book, The Crucifixion of the King of Glory. But does anybody have anything on that before we
48:39
get specifically into the crucifixion? Yeah, I've been to this place. I've been to Pilate's
48:43
Praetorium in Jerusalem. And it is shocking. There is the place, there's like about a 14-inch
48:55
hole in the pavement where they would put the post where they would tie the victim to.
49:00
And I think, I think pre-passion of the Christ movie, we would read by the like, you know,
49:08
Jesus was flogged. And we were thinking like Indiana Jones, a couple of stripes kind of there
49:14
and didn't realize what happens. And then just beside the place where he was flogged,
49:22
still today, there's this kind of tic-tac-toe board looking thing that is etched into
49:28
the pavement there. And this is where the Romans would play this little game called the King's Game.
49:35
And it's still there. And it's a surreal experience to think that the King of Glory
49:42
in the worst prisoner exchange of all time would take our place. And I just can't get over it.
49:50
Well, and the whole thing, and that's the you not being able to get over a part is going to
49:55
lead into your third book that you're going to be releasing here before too long. But
49:58
the one thing I do want to point out about this process before we dig into the crucifixion
50:03
is then the passion of Christ did a great, this was the thing they were most criticized for was
50:08
that scene. And it's, it's even like upsetting even thinking about the scene. But typically,
50:14
when Jesus is depicted getting whipped, like he's on his knees and chained,
50:18
but how it was done is they were chained so that their arms were extended as high above their
50:23
head as they could get so that all there would be all exposure of soft tissue, right? So anyone
50:28
that's had tattoos on the, you know, insides of their arms or on the ribs or something like that,
50:31
it sucks. It sucks a lot. Why? Because it's soft tissue, right? Soft or harder tissue is not as
50:37
painful like the outside of the arms. And so at that moment, they would be able to get the wrap around
50:42
with the whip of cords, they would wrap it around and then rip because there would be glass and
50:48
bone shards and teeth and different things in there to rip. And it's just it's an absolutely
50:53
brutal way to be to be executed. And the criticism for the passion of the Christ was you focused too
51:00
much on the the scourging and the pain that he went through. And it's like, well, because everything
51:05
else depicted it in, you know, oh, they just spray a little catch up on him on his back and all he
51:11
had a couple of lashings. It's like, that's I've got whippings worse than that when I was a child.
51:15
And it's like, you don't understand the what was happening and why it all plays into the narrative
51:22
of the gospel. And I don't want to get too far up. But Ryan, go ahead and hit that. But that's
51:24
the thing when you when you look when you hear about the scourging or this, I think I pronounced
51:29
right. Yeah, you nailed it. So just point to your shirt if you don't feel bad. But but some
51:34
people didn't live through that. Like when you watch the passion of the Christ and you're seeing
51:38
flesh just being torn out, you're seeing open ribs. I read that they can even expose your organs.
51:44
Happened all the time. Yeah. And like, I think about myself, there's no way I would have lived
51:48
through that. There's no way. Yeah. I mean, the the level of toughness that you have to have to
51:53
even survive that to even get to the point where you are carrying the cross beam of your cross
51:57
is pretty astonishing. So I was just for a second, I was reading a couple of weeks ago,
52:02
and this verse jumped out at me like they do sometimes even though you've read it multiple times.
52:07
And it was talking about Christ looking at Peter when the rooster crowed.
52:13
Like in my mind, for some reason, Luke, I got a vision of like direct eye contact,
52:19
look at what I'm doing for you and what what I am. And it just brings that home that he's going
52:26
through this for you specifically. Yeah. And you just got through saying you didn't even know the
52:31
guy. That's another thing. The passion of the Christ did really well. They, if it's been a while
52:36
since I've seen it, but I think Jesus was carrying his his cross beam. Actually, I think they depicted
52:41
his entire cross, but that's neither here nor there. And he falls under the weight of it and he looks
52:46
to his right and he sees Peter. And it's like yikes. Like that is just an absolutely brutal,
52:51
brutal verse. So we need to get into the crucifixion now. I mean, we've been working our way here for
52:56
months at this point. So next guy up, if you'll hit 32 through 44 and we're, we're probably gonna
53:02
have to camp out here for a little bit a lot here. As they went out, they found a man of Serene,
53:07
Simon by by name, they compelled this man to carry his cross. And when they came to a place
53:12
called Golgotha, which means place of the skull, they offered him wine to drink mixed with gall.
53:17
But when he tasted it, he would not drink it. And when they had crucified him, they divided
53:22
garments among them by casting lots. Then they sat down and kept watch over him there.
53:27
And over his head, they put the charge against him, which read, this is Jesus, the king of the Jews.
53:33
Then two robbers were crucified with him, one on the right and one on the left. And those who
53:38
passed by to write at him, wagging their heads and saying, you, you who would destroy the temple
53:44
and rebuild it in three days, save yourself. If you are the son of God, come down from the cross.
53:50
So also the chief priests with the scribes and elders mocked him saying, have you, he saved
53:56
others, he can't save himself. He is the king of Israel, let him come down now from the cross,
54:02
and we will believe in him. He trust in God, let God deliver him. Now, if he desires him,
54:09
or said, I am the son of God. And the robbers who were crucified with him also reviled him in the
54:14
same way. So as Joby, as you mentioned earlier, it literally just says, yeah, and they crucified
54:21
him, right? And they just kind of move on from there. A couple of interesting notes. I didn't
54:26
want to point out and then I want to just open it up to you guys. The, the wine that he was offered
54:32
to drink on the sponge. I heard that this would have been the same sponge that would have been
54:38
issued to these military men that would have been what they would have cleaned themselves with
54:43
after they took a number two in the field, right? So they would have dipped that in some sort of
54:48
mixture and they would have washed themselves with it. And so he would have been getting a mouthful
54:53
of this bitter gall, you know, mixed with human feces. So that's, that's what the king of glory
54:59
was offered. But also, and I've struggled to find substantiation for this. I don't want to camp
55:04
out here too much, but I really super duper. Hope it's true. So I'm showing my cards here.
55:08
But King David, obviously, when he before he was King David, he kills Goliath, chops his head off.
55:13
What did he do with Goliath's head? Well, in 1 Samuel 17, it says that he takes Goliath's head
55:17
to Jerusalem. But you couldn't take things into the city of Jerusalem that were unclean.
55:25
And so when you were a conquering king and you chopped off the head of your, you know, the enemy,
55:30
you wanted to put that on a spike or a spire and put it in the highest place possible so the
55:34
most people could see it. So the highest place possible was just outside the city on Mount Mariah,
55:39
which is known as the place of the skull or Golgotha. And then we get a hint about this because Goliath
55:45
of Gath, that's two words, Golgotha, and then you combine those to get Golgotha. And so
55:52
that's something that I read somewhere and I tried to substantiate it somewhere else.
55:58
But, you know, it's very interesting. And you talked about this and if the tomb is empty,
56:02
I didn't know that that was the same mountain that Abraham offered up Isaac. And then this is the
56:10
mountain where Jesus was laid, you know, laid the waste essentially. And this was also the
56:15
mountain where David planted the head of Goliath. There's so there's so much here. And again,
56:20
you would think if the Bible was just nonsense ramblings of a bunch of guys that just wanted to
56:24
dominate because of patriarch or some nonsense that every archaeological or historical finding
56:30
would repudiate anything and everything that I just said. Yeah, and it's not like they had
56:34
the Onyx app and they could mark the spot. Yeah, right. You know, a couple thousand years later,
56:37
like it's not like Abraham dropped and, you know, they're like, hey, man, everybody should come
56:42
back here and do cool stuff. Yeah, yeah. And so, so when you see it through that lens and you see what
56:48
the angel tells Abraham that this the Lord will provide a substitution area atonement. Yeah,
56:57
that is the same peak of the mountain where all of this happens. It's unbelievable. Yeah. So the
57:03
other thing that a lot of people don't realize because of the like Bible bookstore paintings of
57:07
Jesus on the cross, like way up on a hill with a sunset somewhere in like, you know, the mountains
57:13
of North Georgia is what it always looks like. Currently, the place where Jesus was crucified
57:18
is currently a bus station. Oh, it's nasty. Wow. It's loud. And the first time I saw it, I was,
57:24
I mean, you know, I went big bummer, you know, but then as you sit and reflect on it a little bit,
57:30
that is it's probably more like what the first century spot would have been like because it was
57:35
just outside of the gate. It was on a very busy road. They wanted people to come eyeball to eyeball
57:40
with the crucified so they could spit on them so they could cut them. And so that they could see
57:45
really close up. If I get a line, this is me. Well, and that's the thing that I hate about
57:49
depictions of I hate depictions of Jesus in our work almost exclusively because again, he always
57:54
looks like a Danish model somehow, even though he's a Middle Eastern Jew. But they he's always
57:59
depicted on this enormous cross. That's like 20 foot up in the air and people basically can't
58:05
reach him. You were crucified at ground level. Correct. Right. They wanted you to be able to smell
58:10
the wounds that came from the scurging. And like, again, these people were spat on. They were they
58:16
were mocked. They weren't just killed by the centurians and the Romans, like they were
58:19
taken care of by the populace as well because these are people that were worth the despicable
58:24
crucifixion and execution that they were getting. I think when you bring up the wine,
58:28
there's one thing I wanted to bring up is that, you know, he just went through this scurging
58:33
where he's just ripped to shreds. Now he's nailed to a cross. And we bring up the wine as like,
58:40
you know, the sponge, how the sponge was used, but at two commentaries I looked at and it kind of
58:44
bring two things together where the the Roman guards that were out there, we're going to have
58:49
to be out there all day long. So one of them made the the what do you want to say, like
58:55
not accusation, but they basically said the Roman guards could have poisoned the wine.
59:02
Right. And so so everything could go faster. And the other one commentary said that the wine was
59:09
there to relieve pain. So they were showing him some sort of grace. But like the fact that
59:15
he didn't drink it, he wanted to keep his faculties. He knew what he had to do. He knew he had to take
59:20
on the wrath of God. So if it had poison in it, he knew he had to do something. And even through
59:26
all that pain and everything, he did not take a drink. And then even if he wanted to dull the pain,
59:30
he wanted all his faculties. He's there to say, no, I'm taking on this wrath.
59:34
And I think that's a great point. Actually reminds me of a couple of things we were listening to
59:38
some Braveheart music last night. Well, there's a scene in Braveheart where, you know, that woman
59:41
tries to give him some sort of a thing to dull his pain. And he says, they will numb my wits. And
59:45
he's, you know, he puts it in his mouth. And after she walks off, he spits it out. But also,
59:49
in a real life example, Michelle Black, who I had on the show years ago, her husband was a
59:54
green braid that was killed in Niger, or knee share. Sorry. And when they it's it's so hard to
1:00:03
describe this story. This is the Kyle blubbers like an idiot podcast. But she's picking up his
1:00:09
his body off the plane at the airport. And as she describes it in her book,
1:00:15
she's there with her sons who just lost her dad. They don't understand what's going on. They're young.
1:00:20
And the body's coming off the the conveyor belt. And the people that are on the ground at the
1:00:28
airport are offering her ear protection and because it's cold, it's windy. It's I think it was raining.
1:00:34
And it was super loud, because you're dealing with all the airplanes and the engines and all that.
1:00:39
And she said, no, I want to feel every last ounce of this. Because I need to show my kids
1:00:47
that it's possible to get through this and be resilient. And it's like, again, and then I look
1:00:53
at myself and I'm like, I get mad when the Wi-Fi doesn't work. And it's like, you know, we have
1:00:57
these people that their lives are falling down around them. And you know, all this comes back to
1:01:02
to moments that we see here that there's just something, there's something in the details
1:01:09
of, I'm going to feel every last bit of this. And maybe we're making too poetic of a point here.
1:01:14
But it's like Jesus understood the assignment. He sweated drops of blood so much that he understood
1:01:21
the assignment just the day before, right? Or they, I guess that would be the middle of the night,
1:01:25
right? Anything else? Oh, there's quite a bit else. I've got one thing.
1:01:29
So we were talking earlier about Psalm 22. And this could be wrong. So I'd like to hear what
1:01:34
you think about it. But when I was preparing for this, I put Jesus records his inner dialogue with
1:01:40
God the Father through his servant, King David, to help us understand what he could not say while
1:01:46
he hung on the cross and unimaginable pain 1000 years later, dying for you and for me.
1:01:53
And so some of the examples were, why are you so far from me from the words of my groaning?
1:01:58
I am poured out like water and all my bones are out of joint. My heart is like wax. It is melted
1:02:03
within my breast. And then he talks about for dogs and compass me, a company of evil doers
1:02:08
encircle me. And they have pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones. So I think it
1:02:14
really brings that home. And it just amazes me that in Psalm 22 1000 years before we kind of get a
1:02:21
glimpse of what he couldn't say on the cross, but what he was experiencing.
1:02:25
Yeah, it's called it was a rabbinical teaching trick called a Ramese. Okay. So a part of what
1:02:33
rabbis would do is they would call and we're going to get to it in this next section. So you
1:02:38
would quote the first line of a passage knowing that all the good little Jewish boys and girls that
1:02:44
went to Hebrew school would say the rest of it. And I mean, that's what he's about to do is.
1:02:51
And it's my Easter sermon this year is that is is him quoting Psalm 22. And that it is a prophecy
1:03:02
play by play. You know, in fact, when I when I go to Israel, if you cut me, I bleed evangelism.
1:03:08
So if I can if I can try to share Christ with somebody, so I'm like my every tour guide,
1:03:12
I'm like, you know, Jesus, you know, we've heard of him, but we're not into it. And if you try
1:03:17
to go to Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53, they're not allowed to read it. Right. Right. They're not
1:03:22
allowed to read their own scriptures. And Isaiah is Isaiah 45? Yeah. That's the one that's like the
1:03:29
most like out there, like description of Jesus is like in Jewish, you know, day school or whatever.
1:03:35
I forget the name of it. But it's like, yeah, they don't they don't study that at all.
1:03:40
Go ahead. I want to bring up is the the robbers next to him, how they mocked him.
1:03:45
And so I was reading like, I always grew up thinking like, oh man, the robbers were like,
1:03:49
these guys that would like break into your house and steal stuff in the middle of the night and
1:03:52
they're getting crucified and when I'm reading some of the commentary, like, no, these were like
1:03:57
seditionists. These are actually the guy's real insurrectionists. These are the guys that actually
1:04:02
did what they're putting Jesus to death for. And the and I think it's amazing when you when I'm
1:04:07
reading this in Matthew and how they're mocking him and we don't we don't know about the thief
1:04:11
on the cross until Luke. But it's just like how much compassion Christ had for him on the cross
1:04:19
after he just mocked him moments ago. Well, and to that point, Ryan, so go ahead. Go ahead.
1:04:25
No, I'm just saying no, I'm just saying like that's, I mean, that's the beauty of the gospel.
1:04:29
You know, like I wish I had a, you know, like that's the heart we strive for that he was literally
1:04:35
being mocked by this man. And this man just took a full, he had true repentance. He had minute,
1:04:41
you know, minute, oh, it's a man. It's a man. It's a mana Tonya. Well, there's,
1:04:45
where's be called that the first gospel tract, the sign above Jesus? Because he read it and
1:04:51
believed shout outs. All you guys handing out gospel tracks down on the beach. But like, yeah,
1:04:55
so there's another thing that that came up while you're for me, Ryan, while you were talking about
1:04:59
that. So, Barabbas should have been on the cross of Jesus was crucified on like we don't know that
1:05:04
for certain, but it all signs point to the fact that these two seditionists were part of Barabbas's
1:05:10
crew. So he was like the ringleader. And these were these two robbers, otherwise known as seditionists,
1:05:14
we're going to be crucified together. And so I think this brings up a very good discussion
1:05:19
that we can't go too far into. But when someone that's super mega depraved
1:05:25
turns to Christ and you think to yourself, man, but they were really bad, right? It's like,
1:05:33
there was no worse example to Jewish people in that time than Barabbas. He was the worst of the
1:05:38
worst of their culture. So think about the guy that you made up in your brain. That is the serial
1:05:43
killer that raped all of his victims who all happened to be children, right? That there's the
1:05:48
worst thing that you could possibly think of. And when that guy turns to Christ, there are a lot
1:05:54
of Uppity Christians that are just like, I don't know, I got saved at a, you know, a Wednesday night,
1:05:59
you know, kid service, like I got saved when a hell of fire and brimstone preacher came in and
1:06:03
spoke at my church that one time. And you know, the worst thing I ever did was still a piece of
1:06:07
bubblegum. I literally just described myself like that's not the worst thing I've ever done. But I
1:06:10
did still piece of bubblegum when I was five and I'm still getting punished for it. But the thing
1:06:14
about it is we don't want to give those people the benefit of the doubt that the gospel actually
1:06:18
works, which almost shows your cards is if you're going to say that, it's like, do you understand the
1:06:23
gospel? Because when I was at Lewisburg prison, talking to those guys, I was with guys that
1:06:29
had killed multiple people. I was with rapists. I was with pedophiles. I was with armed robbers.
1:06:34
I was with the worst of the worst. And a lot of these guys had turned to Christ. And about three
1:06:38
dozen of them turned to Christ while I was there on the premises, right? And it's just like, imagine,
1:06:44
imagine me going there to preach at Lewisburg. Can I say preach? Even though I'm not a preacher,
1:06:48
I went there to preach. And guys turn their lives over to Christ. And if I what if my posture was
1:06:53
immediately like, maybe I should preach again. I don't really, I don't really know. Let's make
1:06:58
sure when we do that baptism that we don't come twice, right? Like just to make sure,
1:07:02
imagine the posture of arrogance that you would have to have to think that somebody isn't deserving
1:07:06
of the gospel. And I think that's just where it comes down to is we've just got to be grateful
1:07:12
when somebody like that turns because you bring up somebody who who did the worst things of raping
1:07:16
a child or something like that. Yeah, that's to pray. But I've done to pray things too.
1:07:21
It may not be to that extent, but I'm just as guilty and you're just as worthy of it. And I'm
1:07:25
just as worthy of it. And I have a savior that reached out his hand and picked me up out of it.
1:07:30
And he could do it for that person. And you have to be able to sit there and you've got to be in
1:07:35
all of it. And you've got to just love the compassionate heart that Christ has for the
1:07:40
lowliest. And guess what, buddy? You're the lowliest. Right. Nobody. No, there's not one who is good
1:07:46
other than him. Well, he's the only one that walked this earth. And Joby, I mean, you've literally
1:07:51
had thousands of people come to Christ since you started church of 11 22. And they weren't
1:07:56
all squeaky clean, you know, pastor's kids, right? And so like talk a little bit about that because
1:08:01
there is this weird posture within Christiandom about certain people actually being saved or not.
1:08:06
So the first thing Jesus says on the cross, according to Luke 23 is father forgive them for
1:08:12
they know not what they do. And if if you don't understand that we are them, you're screwed in it.
1:08:20
Yeah. And what begins to happen is the longer that you're in church and around church people,
1:08:27
you begin to think them as somebody else. Honestly, I think one of the biggest reasons people were
1:08:32
so offended by that he gets us commercial is because grace was shown to them. All the people
1:08:37
getting their feet washed were them and church people think we're not them. Like we bring merit
1:08:44
to our salvation. And we don't. We're all undeserving. But God, my God's grace, we get saved.
1:08:52
So I've kind of been delaying a little bit because this next part of scripture, it's uncomfortable,
1:08:57
but it's also great at the same time. So we got to get into the death of Jesus. So this is verses 45.
1:09:02
And we're just going to do a 45 through 56. We'll do the whole section, then we'll,
1:09:05
we'll break it down from there. So I keep forgetting who's next. So hit it.
1:09:08
Now from the sixth hour, there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour.
1:09:12
And about the ninth hour, Jesus cried out with a loud boy saying, Eli, Eli,
1:09:17
Lima, Sabakthani. That is my God, my God. Why have you forsaken me? And some of the bystanders
1:09:25
hearing it said, this man is calling to Elijah. And one of them at once ran and took a sponge,
1:09:31
filled it with sour wine and put it on a read and gave it to him to drink. But the other said,
1:09:35
wait, let us see whether Elijah will come to save him. And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice
1:09:42
and yielded up his spirit and behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two from the top to bottom
1:09:49
and the earth shook and the rocks were split. The tombs also were opened and many bodies of the
1:09:55
saints who had fallen asleep were raised and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection.
1:10:00
They went into the holy city and appeared to many when the centurion and those who were with him,
1:10:06
keeping watch over Jesus saw the earthquake and what took place, they were filled with awe and said,
1:10:13
truly, this is what the sun, truly, this was the son of God. There were also many women there
1:10:22
looking on from a distance who had followed Jesus, whom were Mary Magdalene and Mary, mother of James
1:10:30
and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zevadi. Joby, I'm going to shut my mouth and let you hit it.
1:10:36
This is your world. Talk to us about this section of scripture. Like I mentioned before, when he
1:10:42
pushes up on his nail pierce feet and says, Elay, Elayama, Shabbatani, he's quoting Psalm 22. Yeah.
1:10:48
And he wants everybody to know that this is the preordained, predestined, playing of God for the
1:10:56
salvation of all who would believe and the renewal of all things. And so if you were to read, you read
1:11:03
Psalm 22. It is a play by play, blow by blow of exactly what is happening, written a thousand years
1:11:10
before it ever happens. And that Jesus is the Lamb of God who's come to take away the sin of the
1:11:16
entire world. That's what John the Baptist said about him before he baptized him. He's not another
1:11:21
Lamb of God that's going to cover the sin of the Jewish people until next year on the day of
1:11:25
atonement. That's what lambs did. He is there to fulfill and take away the sin of any of anyone
1:11:32
who would believe that when this happened, it counts for him. And there are some people, some
1:11:39
centurion, some Romans that after seeing the crucifixion and the death of Jesus, they finally
1:11:45
believe that he is who he says he is. So with that, I go, I go to verse 54, when the centurion and those
1:11:55
who were with him, keeping watch over Jesus, all the earthquake and what took place, they were filled
1:11:58
with all and said truly that. And you know, this was the son of God, dad, gummit, they were right.
1:12:02
And yet the apostles were still shocked. Again, I never want to hover above the apostles,
1:12:08
but I'm like, for three years, they followed him around and they doubted constantly. They constantly
1:12:15
were saying stupid things. Mainly Peter, who is, I'm basically Peter, right? And so like, you just,
1:12:21
you know, get out of your skis, you get ahead of your brain, and then you just, you say things.
1:12:25
Like, how is it that, you know, just a bystander is like, oh, that's clearly a son of God.
1:12:31
And to this day, there are Jews are like, no, no, he was, he was just basically a pesky rabbi
1:12:38
that, you know, started saying crazy things. And then we had to take them out, you know,
1:12:41
because God or something. So like, that's, that's the thing that stuck out to me is like,
1:12:44
and the apostles still weren't sure. And Thomas was still doubting, even though Thomas was a gangster,
1:12:48
like Thomas get the bad rep. But like, you know, how does that happen? Like, I just, I just don't
1:12:53
get it intellectually. Because God hasn't opened their eyes.
1:12:55
Brian, you did a great job of showing your poker face. You were so excited to hear him say that.
1:13:04
So what explanation is there? I mean, it's just what the word says that, that, and like,
1:13:11
faith is not a thing that you create inside of yourself. You made Zach so mad he had to get up
1:13:15
and leave the table. Yeah, that's it. Faith is a gift from God. Yes. So we're not saved by works.
1:13:23
We're saved by grace through faith. And even the faith we have is not our own. It's been given
1:13:26
to us by God. So, so like Miguel's book, back in the 1900s, evidence that demands a verdict,
1:13:34
great book. I mean, great. All that's true. It's just that's not how it works.
1:13:38
It's just not how it works. And there, there's a, there's a significant place for all the
1:13:44
apologists that are out there for sure. It just never works that way. It's not like
1:13:49
you can just debate somebody into the kingdom of God. It's a miraculous thing of God's gift
1:13:55
that salvation happens. So when I hear people say that, it seems like a, like, like, kind of like
1:14:02
your dog and on apologist, because there are people who will have a gap in their understanding
1:14:09
that an apologist can help them understand, and it can kind of help them understand whether it's
1:14:12
through. I'm not going on an apologist. There's a significant role there. It's just, it's not,
1:14:19
look, when somebody gets saved, there's three options. Okay. Either one, I'm just super good at
1:14:25
this because I can explain it better than everybody else can. Option two, you're just smarter than
1:14:30
everybody else in the world because you wrapped your mind around the realities of eternity. Or
1:14:35
number three, God saves. I'm in the God saves can. Now he uses preachers and apologists for sure,
1:14:42
but it's not because this group of people were smarter than another group of people.
1:14:48
It's just not. There's this supernatural event that happens that somebody
1:14:51
by the sovereign hand of God has eyes to see and ears to hear and their heart is opened up.
1:14:58
And I can only attest to that on what I've done or what God's done for me, not what I've done,
1:15:05
but what God's done for me because I've been in church probably since I was a little kid. I grew
1:15:09
up in many different types of churches. And I could tell you that I didn't even know the true
1:15:15
meaning of the gospel until I was probably about 32 years old. No wait, 36 years old.
1:15:21
And I was that cultural Christian that went to church every day. I thought I was really good
1:15:27
person because I took my family to church. I took care of a lot of poor people, you know,
1:15:32
when did the food bank stuff and I never had a real good grasp on my own depravity and why
1:15:39
Christ died for me until my eyes were opened to the beauty of what the gospel really is.
1:15:44
Is that I'm not even worthy. I'm not worthy at all. Nothing I've done is worthy of him opening my
1:15:51
eyes, but he chose to do it anyways. If I could put a pen in this, I want us to talk about this
1:15:57
a little bit more on next week's episode where we get into kind of limited tone mint and like,
1:16:03
you know, who's who's doing the eyes opening? Who's doing the moving? Like, are you dead in the
1:16:08
water and Jesus snatches you up? Or do you have to actually reach your hand out, you know, and bring
1:16:12
something to the fact that you were safe from drowning? So I want to make sure we get into that.
1:16:16
But let's go ahead and get into this last second. I do.
1:16:19
They're serious. Oh, no, no kidding. The reform guys want to hop right back in whenever I'm trying
1:16:23
to put a pen in something. Yeah, go ahead, guys. Well, you put a pen in it a couple of weeks ago.
1:16:27
I tried to. I desperately tried to. You're good, brother. I just want to talk about the wrath of
1:16:33
God. I think that's a kind of a sore subject for some people is they don't want to think of God
1:16:38
of a substitutionary atonement. They don't want to think of that of God. I think the church I went
1:16:43
to at the time called it cosmic child abuse. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've never heard that. Yeah,
1:16:48
I'm not. That's like straight out of like the four horsemen of atheism. Yeah. So I'm not. Yeah. So,
1:16:54
but I had to trouble with the wrath of God. I'm like, whoa, God's so loving. Why? Why do we have a
1:16:59
wrath and blah, blah, blah, blah. And and we have to have his wrath. I mean, like what he's got to
1:17:04
be a just God and he's got a he's got to atone for our sin. And he chose to do that himself.
1:17:10
And there was a there was a quote by Spurgeon. There's two quotes by Spurgeon that I wanted to go
1:17:14
over real quick. But one was there was a cup. Hell was in it and save your drink it, not a sip,
1:17:20
and then a pause, not a draw and then a seizing. But he drained it till there was no dredge left
1:17:25
for any of his people. Sorry. I said his people. The great 10 throng whip of the law was worn out
1:17:33
upon his back. There is no lash left which to smite one for whom Jesus died. The great bombardment
1:17:41
of God's justice has exhausted all of its ammunition. There is nothing left to be hurled against a
1:17:46
child of God. I thought that was like that when I was reading that sixth hour and there was darkness
1:17:52
all over the land until the ninth hour. That's usually the time that they say that the wrath of
1:17:56
God came upon Christ for our sins. And that's what was going on. Like he drank that cup from
1:18:03
I think 12 p.m. to 3 p.m. and just imagine after being scourged and beaten trying to breathe,
1:18:11
you know, that the point that he even yelled something out and being able to yell something
1:18:16
out that this is what was going on for you and me. And so I just thought it was a beautiful thing.
1:18:22
And then when when you think of the wrath, you know, we talk about my cage stage Calvinism
1:18:27
time where I'm like, oh, I'm all big on you. Like, y'all don't understand the wrath of God or
1:18:31
there's not repentance in that in that commercial or one of the things that Spurgeon said that
1:18:37
kind of got to me too was I'm certain that to preach the wrath of God with a hard heart,
1:18:42
cold lip, a tearless eye, and an unfeeling spirit is to harden men, not benefit them.
1:18:48
And that's what kind of brought me out of that stage I was in. I was like, man, my heart is so
1:18:53
hardened towards sin and people not getting it. But I need to soften and be compassionate towards
1:18:59
those people who don't. Yeah. I spend a lot of time with a bunch of Theo bros because I'm a part
1:19:04
of the accident on network of churches. And you know, it's like the most reformed thing you can have.
1:19:08
And there are some people, some pastors that seem to be most excited about total depravity.
1:19:16
And I'm like, oh, man. It's like their favorite thing. Oh, okay. I'm the kind of
1:19:21
Galvinist that thinks that God actually enjoys saving people. Are you not? Like,
1:19:26
and I don't even love the term Calvinism, but we may be able to talk about that next week.
1:19:29
Yeah. The key distinction is that God is love. He has to be stirred to wrath. These are different
1:19:39
things. God's wrath is a byproduct of the combination of his love and justice.
1:19:45
Not his default mechanism. Correct. Correct. Correct. Correct. So probably, in my opinion,
1:19:50
the best description of this would be at the end or kind of the middle of Romans chapter three,
1:19:55
it says, it's talking about faith in Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood,
1:20:00
propitiation means a payment that satisfies the law of the justice of God. To be received by faith,
1:20:06
this was to show God's righteousness because in his divine forbearance, he had passed over former
1:20:10
sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time so that he might be just and the
1:20:16
justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. In other words, because of God's justice,
1:20:21
all sin must be paid for. Right. And the payment is not only determined by what you do, but who you
1:20:26
do it against. So sin, I guess, an eternal God requires an eternal punishment for him to overlook
1:20:32
sin would make him an unjust judge. Yes. But because of his mercy, he delayed the payment.
1:20:38
This is how David gets saved from the Old Testament. This is how you and I get saved
1:20:42
because God does not demand payment for our sin the first time we ever sin, or none of us are here.
1:20:46
And yet because of his grace, he makes the payment on our behalf. He's the just and the
1:20:50
justifier. And we'll make sure that we pick back up on that because it's really important because
1:20:54
there is a lot of confusion and consternation. And that's part of the thing that we've talked
1:20:58
about off offline is people love their camp. And it's like, they especially love camps that can't
1:21:04
be proven right. And so I think about like, you know, post mill, email, all those types of things.
1:21:09
Like I think you and I were talking about, there's like a two hour long debate with like John Piper
1:21:13
and Doug Wilson, all the other people. And I was just like, there's a zero percent chance I'm
1:21:16
going to watch that. Like people like screaming at each other. Well, they were they were screaming
1:21:20
at each other. They were having a good time. But it's like, you all spent two hours talking about
1:21:22
something that none of you can prove. It's like same thing with young earth, old earth and all that
1:21:26
last last comment before we get to the end here, we got to wind down. I got one more. Go ahead. Go
1:21:30
ahead. You go. There's this, this beautiful picture when the earthquake hits and tears the curtain
1:21:38
from the top to the bottom. Yeah. Not not bottom to top. Not like we work our way into the presence
1:21:44
guy who talked about him. True. It's an invitation. So the holy of holy is represented the presence
1:21:49
of God. And there was a curtain that separated the presence of God from the people of God.
1:21:54
But through the atoning work of Jesus on the cross, you and I get invited into the king's chambers
1:21:58
as a son. As a son, it's it's really an invitation to pray. It's an invitation to see him as a good
1:22:04
dad that loves his kids and just don't ever miss that, that invitation. I never thought about the
1:22:11
top to bottom and the thing about that curtain as well, like I think I heard like that curtain was
1:22:15
so big. It took like 200 priests to move it. Like because it was just the this big unbelievably
1:22:21
big curtain. So I never really understood that concept until sadly it was a Jeremy Camp song.
1:22:26
And it was yeah, it was like Jeremy Camp. Yeah. I love Jeremy Camp, but he goes, the veil was
1:22:33
torn so we could have an open door. And then that's what when I read that verse, it just I had that
1:22:38
Jeremy Camp song in my head. Well, and I'm not. I mean, it is what it is. You did a sermon a couple
1:22:44
of weeks ago. And you basically went on like this extended. This is who you are. Yeah. What was
1:22:51
that? That was a few months ago. But what was that? That I like who wrote that part? A guy named Neil
1:22:56
Anderson. Right. Because here's one of the things, man, one of the enemy schemes is to
1:23:02
the way to preach it is this he always wants you to be defined by your scars.
1:23:06
You're defined by Jesus's scars. That's true. Only Jesus gets to tell you who you are. Right.
1:23:12
The moment you start believing you are those things that you did, you're believing a lie
1:23:17
because therefore now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
1:23:21
Condem is a building term. It means unfit for use. And that's what the enemy tries to
1:23:26
spit at us all the time. And Jesus is like, no, I get to tell him who he is. And he this is crazy.
1:23:35
He is me. That's what Jesus says. You are in Christ seated with him at the right hand of God,
1:23:43
the Father. Puted righteousness. That's it, man. Well, hey, we got to we got to wrap up here because
1:23:47
we got a whole lot more to discuss. So shut up, Ryan, except for right now I need you to read. So
1:23:51
so don't shut up. So you're actually going to close us out. So you got the shortest section at the
1:23:55
beginning. But now we need to dust off our brain cells. We need 57 through the end. So that is
1:24:00
through 66. When it was evening, there came a rich man from a erimathea named Joseph,
1:24:06
who was a disciple of Jesus. He went to pilot and asked for the body of Jesus.
1:24:11
Then pilot ordered it to be given to him. And Joseph took the body and wrapped it in clean
1:24:14
linen and a clean linen shroud and laid it on the on his own new toe tomb, which he had cut into rock.
1:24:21
And he rolled a great stone to the entrance of the tomb and went away. Mary Magdalene and the other
1:24:26
Mary were there sitting opposite the tomb. The next day, that is after the day of the preparation,
1:24:34
the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered before pilot and said, sir, we remember how that imposter
1:24:40
said while he was still alive, after three days, I will rise. Therefore order the tomb to be made
1:24:46
secure until the third day, lest his disciples go and steal him away until the people he has risen
1:24:51
from the dead. And the last fraud will be worse than the first. Pilot said to them,
1:24:57
you have a guard of soldiers, go make it as secure as you can. So they went and made the tomb
1:25:02
secure by sealing the stone and setting a guard. So we can really talk a lot about this when we
1:25:10
get into excuse me, Matthew 28, but any closing thoughts on on this part right here before we get
1:25:16
out, I think one of the cool losing thoughts that I have on this is that the tomb, what I read is
1:25:23
the seal of the tomb. The stone was easy to push in, but not to push out. So it would make it very
1:25:32
hard for thieves to take Jesus's body. Two, there was a guard there and three, the seal wasn't like
1:25:37
they sealed it up, but there was a seal on the stone that said, you know, be where to anybody who
1:25:42
comes and tries to open this, you'll be under, you'll be under, they also nailed it shut. Yeah,
1:25:47
they nailed it shut. So I didn't, yeah, and that's, you know, these dirty rotten apologists,
1:25:53
they taught me a lot about the, the resurrection and all that kind of stuff. And about the things
1:25:58
that were happening at that time, because the thing is, the way, the way that they're, the way that
1:26:02
that's always depicted is weird, because you've been there, right? Well, it isn't this, wasn't it
1:26:07
like almost like a almost like a gigantic hockey puck stone that was kind of like rolled into like a,
1:26:12
yeah, absolutely track or some, there's a little there's a little trough. And it is, it's like a
1:26:17
huge hockey puck, huge, huge, you know, maybe like a foot wide, but it's like seven feet tall,
1:26:22
that kind of thing. Right. And that's exactly that. They roll the stone in place. And then they would
1:26:26
put very similar to the way they would crucify somebody with that kind of spike. And then they
1:26:30
would put that spike into the side of the rock so that the stone could not be rolled the other way.
1:26:38
And, and again, there's so many details there that we don't have time to get into. But yes, the seal,
1:26:43
the seal didn't seal anything. It was a warning. It was like, this is who this belongs to. I was
1:26:48
reminded of a, a scene from gangs in New York, where like the cop of the five points, he takes
1:26:54
out his pocket watch and hangs it up on like a streetlight. And these people he's walking through,
1:26:59
they're like, Hey, like there's a lot of crime around here. Aren't you worried about that? It's
1:27:02
like, no, everyone knows that's my watch. And it's like, that's basically what was happening
1:27:06
here to where it's like, if you want a faithful, like you're going to be with Rome, like that's
1:27:10
basically what's going on in this exact moment. And so this idea that the centurions at the threat
1:27:16
of death would fall asleep on watch in addition to having the manpower or, you know, ox power to
1:27:24
move this stone to do it all without disturbing these men who would probably be sleeping lightly.
1:27:30
Like it just none of it even makes sense. But whenever you hear people argue about the tomb,
1:27:35
and they argue about what could have happened to Jesus's body, realize that nobody was more
1:27:40
excited to produce Jesus's body than the Jews, than the Sanhedrin, right? Nobody would have been
1:27:45
more excited to do that. And so you're telling me that they hid him somewhere where nobody could
1:27:50
find him, right? Like the, there was the long arms of the Sanhedrin and of Rome,
1:27:55
both working together would have loved nothing more than to produce his dead body to be like,
1:28:00
Hey, no, playa, he's, he's not here. They were often hiding.
1:28:03
So shout out to all the wonderful apologists out there doing that.
1:28:07
That's right. That's what I said. That's what I love very much.
1:28:09
I thought one of the things that has helped me so much, you know, whenever you get into
1:28:14
these like crisis of faith, I assume it happens to everybody happens to me sometimes, even though
1:28:19
I do this for a living and all that, you know, when you get to these moments, like, am I just
1:28:22
making this up? This is crazy. Right? Like the God of the universe speaks everything into existence
1:28:26
and, you know, yeah, all the things. The thing that grounds me more than anything else
1:28:32
is all of the evidence of Jesus crucified and resurrected. So all of these things you're talking
1:28:38
about, the eyewitnesses, the realities of the tomb being sealed, the Romans, they're the most
1:28:46
powerful entity in the history of the universe. And they're still kind of freaking out because
1:28:52
they put a garrison of soldiers around the dead Jewish guy that's in the hole. They have to do
1:28:55
that over and over and over. Yeah. One of the things that I do want to point out is Joseph of
1:29:00
Arimathea. Okay. Here's a righteous rich man with a lot of influence. And he was a Sanhedra
1:29:04
member as well. Correct. Member of the council. Correct. Okay. Yeah. And John says, so all God's
1:29:10
was called him a disciple. And John says he was a secret disciple. Okay. Any pastors listening to
1:29:18
this, and especially everybody, it's a little extra judgy. You've always got to have room for
1:29:23
the secret disciple. Like we're all like, no, you're either all in or you're going to, you know,
1:29:28
they're, we all man, I mean, I kind of have that attitude about me. That verse keeps a spot in my
1:29:35
mind when somebody is not as overtly Christian as I think they should be to take up their cross
1:29:41
and follow after Jesus. All it takes to be a Christian is everything you have, you know,
1:29:45
that kind of thing. And then here's, here's a guy used to buy God for the most significant event in
1:29:52
the entire cosmos. And the Bible calls him a disciple, like he's going to go to heaven. And he
1:29:58
was a very important cog in the wheel and essential. Very, very, very. And yet at this point in his
1:30:03
journey, he's like, I'm not going to tell him about it quite yet. Yeah. Yeah. That's very
1:30:07
interesting. But guys, there's way more that can be said. I think we spent a good amount of time
1:30:11
on this. This is the new record for longest forging table episode, but it could have been
1:30:15
significantly longer. I kept having to cut us off to move it on. But come back here next week,
1:30:19
which is Easter Sunday, guys. So happy early Easter. We're going to be going through the
1:30:23
final chapter of Matthew, that is Matthew 28. But before we let you go, we are going to do a
1:30:27
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you can check out, you can check that out in the show notes and also the Logos Bible software.
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So if you want to get into like major Bible study, if you want to have maybe the most powerful
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