THE FORGING TABLE | Matthew 22 (Ep. 568)

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0:50 This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into

0:55 it. Welcome back to the forging table. The mission

0:58 of Undaunted Life is a… And again, dude. I knew it. The moment. You're not sitting

1:05 next to me anymore. Welcome back to the forging table. The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping

1:10 men to push back darkness with content that forges, spiritual, mental, and physical resilience.

1:15 At the forging table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience

1:18 by digging into God's word, and we're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with

1:21 us. That's Dagan. That's Adam. That's Ryan. We're going to dig into Matthew 22 today,

1:26 and right before we got in, because we're going to start with the parable of the wedding

1:28 fees, I was like, hey, does anybody got any funny wedding stories? And Dagan, you and

1:32 I actually have something very macabre and common, but you get to tell your story first

1:38 and then I'll follow up. Tell me what you said. Launch into your marriage/wedding story.

1:44 Well, that's amazing. So welcome to the family. I love knowing that. So my beautiful wife,

1:51 Michelle, we've been married. We got married in 2004. She's dying to my… When we were

1:59 dating, I'm four and a half years older than her, so I was out of college like old, ready

2:04 to get married, like knew it, right? And so she's a senior in college, and so not in

2:11 the same spot. Well, we've been dating for about seven months. Our parents lived in Arkansas,

2:15 so we drove to Little Rock one weekend. I got the ring in my pocket. Michelle's upstairs

2:20 taking an app. It's like early in the morning, she's not downstairs yet, and I get the parents

2:25 in the living room, and I do a… Like looking back, it was a terrible job of asking to be

2:32 the new leader of this girl. It was awful. But I just thought, yeah, of course, you're

2:37 going to say, yeah, here's the… Oh, this is what I want to do. I want to get married.

2:41 Here's the ring. Isn't this great? And they're going to… And we're going to have a party.

2:45 And so I went kind of through whatever terrible shrill I had. And her mom just kind of had

2:49 this… Like this bride I'd look on her face staring at me and made this slow transition

2:55 to turn over to look at her dad sitting next to her on the couch. And they went basically

3:01 in the nicest way they possibly could told me no, that I could not marry her.

3:07 And it was just like, what do you do? Like the ring is in my pocket. Like, what do you

3:12 do? And I was just like… And I even asked, I said, oh, and they wanted us to date longer.

3:16 They said, you know, we want you to date through all four seasons. And it's like, okay. But,

3:20 you know, it's like cotton mouth. And I got to get a metallic taste in my mouth. I'm

3:24 about to die. And I was like, okay, well, I got to salvage this moment. So I was like,

3:29 well, I have the ring. Would you like to see that? And her mom was like, no, I'll see

3:33 it later. I was like, listen, people, I'm trying here. She gave you, she gave you at

3:38 least something. You got a consolation. Yeah, she said later later. Yeah. But then later,

3:42 so her family is Afghan. And so at our wedding, man, there was more dancing at my wedding than

3:49 at most weddings. And they kind of, the DJ alternated like, yeah, they'd play like a pop song. And

3:55 then they'd play and no one would dance. They'd play an Afghan song. And the whole audience would

4:00 come out to the floor. Well, he wasn't playing enough in one of her uncles that had a little too

4:04 much to drink and went over to the DJ table and got in an argument with the DJ. And this is like

4:11 pre MP4s, right? We're not playing music off of a Spotify playlist. He's got stacks of CDs.

4:16 And the uncle takes the stack of CDs and was like, and just throws them all over and CDs and

4:25 cases are flying all over the place. And then I got to watch my father-in-law, my now father-in-law

4:30 throw that dude out. So it was it was an exciting time, but it started with being told no. Okay,

4:35 now but there was you kind of lost the thread there in the middle because eventually you asked.

4:39 And she said, yeah, so like what? Oh, parents were eventually cool with it? No, so that's I was told

4:45 to wait a while, which I think it would have, I mean, it would have been three, well, five months,

4:51 I think they said a year. But I call my now sister-in-law, some of my wife's sister,

4:56 who knew what was happening. I called and because she's anticipating good news,

5:02 she's anticipating a call from Michelle. Hey, I just got engaged. And she gets a call from me.

5:07 And I tell her what's going on. And she calls her parents and choose their

5:11 butts like massive like like chew their butts. So I waited a month. I went back, just me,

5:21 drove to Little Rock. I had I had a three-ring binder, right? Like I had bank statements,

5:28 there wasn't much in the bank account. Are you serious? I had everything. I was like so much

5:32 because I really did feel like I was like, as you as you go back and relive that I was like,

5:36 I so took for granted what I was asking them. Right. You weren't you didn't feel like you're

5:40 I had everything. I had like, here's what I'm planning to do. Here's the apartment I'm going to

5:44 live. Here's the cost of the apartment. Here's all my utilities. Here's my bank statements like

5:47 all of that. You're going to show your bank statements. I didn't have to but I did. They didn't

5:51 look at it all. But I think they were just like, okay, well, this is better. This is better. And

5:56 we took a butt chewing from Mariam. So let's just do this. And let's just let's just call it good.

6:03 Mine wasn't that bad. Hit it. Go. So my wife and I did it for like three months before I was

6:09 going to ask her to marry me. And so she she goes, well, let me let me get a temperature of the room

6:14 before you do it. Because I was going to do it like Thanksgiving. We're going to meet with her

6:19 family in Springfield, Missouri on Thanksgiving. This was like, I think my first Thanksgiving with

6:23 her family. I mean, we're together three months. And she's like, well, let me let me call my mom.

6:28 So she calls her mom. Her mom's like, no, absolutely not. And I'm like, oh, snap. Like,

6:35 I already have the ring. I've already dropped money on the ring. So her version of reading the room

6:39 is asking her mom asking her mom. That's how she wanted to read the room. She asked her mom first.

6:44 And then she's like, uh, that didn't go over very well. And I'm like, so she's like, well,

6:49 let me talk to my dad. So painful. And so she goes and calls her dad. Her dad's like, great.

6:54 Awesome. And so she's like, talk to my dad. And so that Thanksgiving we went over there and

7:01 you and I went outside of the back porch and talked and he was like, I think it's great. I think

7:05 you should. I got the ring. You want to see? He's like, I'd love to. So yeah, I'm glad I had to

7:10 ask her dad and not her mom. So mom like you now? Yeah, she's kind of forced to, you know,

7:16 that's a big fat move. My mother in law loves me. She's a great lady. She's a really good lady.

7:21 So you got dad's blessing, but not mom's blessing. I think it didn't really matter about mom's blessing

7:26 when dad said like, no, I think they were just trying to get her off the payroll, honestly.

7:29 Yeah. Wow. I can't leave you said that out loud. They say it all the time as a joke. They're like,

7:35 well, the funny thing about is my sister-in-law moved in with us like a year later. So I had like

7:39 two other daughters of the payroll. But no, I mean, they saw you coming. No, my father-in-law,

7:46 he told me he goes the very first time I met you, you were always honest and open. That's I guess

7:51 I talked too much. Well, I mean, it's good. If you talk a lot, you better be honest and open.

7:56 Yeah. I guess that helps. My story is not near as long as and drawn out, but it is still interesting.

8:01 So my wife and I, we had dated for about four years before we decided that we were going to

8:05 get engaged. We went and picked out the ring and got the ring. And I wanted it to be a really

8:10 romantic time and meaningful time when I asked her. And so I waited nine months for an important

8:17 day. Oh my gosh. For an important day. You found no important days on the count of a flag day.

8:22 It would have been a good enough day. Tuesday is an important day. So my poor wife had to wait

8:27 for nine months thinking like, okay, we went and looked at the ring. I think he maybe probably

8:31 was going to get one, but he hasn't asked yet. He still hasn't asked yet. And so nine months

8:37 and event after event after event pass. And then I finally asked her and she won't let me forget

8:42 that that I made her wait nine months from the time we picked up the ring to the time I gave it to her.

8:47 Well, my story kind of fits in between with some of those. And so my wife and I, so we started dating

8:56 on my, like, I met her when I was on my 19th birthday, right? So we date all the way through college.

9:01 And I graduate and then, you know, I'm going to ask her to marry me, right? And so she worked

9:07 at a jewelry store in her hometown to marry at Oklahoma Shoutout, Norton's jewelry. She worked

9:11 there all throughout high school, you know, wearing all the pretty jewelry selling it to all the

9:14 sexually frustrated men in town. And so like she was a great and great jewelry salesperson.

9:19 And so I knew what she wanted because Norton's knew what she wanted. Like, you know, little girl

9:24 basically picks out exactly what type of setting, you know, diamond cut and all that. And so I work

9:28 with Norton's, you know, we get the ring. And this one, I'm like selling insurance. And so I like

9:33 leave for the day to go down there. And so it's like, okay, this is going to be great because I'm

9:37 going to be able to buy the ring and then just drive out, you know, to her parents house and,

9:41 you know, ask them and then I'll be back in time for dinner. Now at this point, her father in the

9:47 four plus years that I've been dating, her had said about 12 words to me in that entire length

9:53 of time, not a huge conversationalist with me didn't have a lot in common didn't want to have a lot

9:58 in common. And so I'm thinking this is going to be good. I'm just going to go in there and knock

10:02 this thing out. Well, I went in there and just straight pushed out from the very beginning.

10:06 I walk into the living room. He's sitting in his chair. She's sitting next to him. They know I'm

10:10 not just in the neighborhood two and a half hours away from where I live. And I just started watching

10:15 TV with them. I don't say a word. And I'm just like, we're watching the news or NASCAR or something.

10:20 And I'm just sitting there on the couch watching it. Nobody's saying a word. And then like a

10:24 commercial break hits and I'm like, okay, frickin jerk, like do this. And so I turn and I say,

10:29 you know, hey, I think you guys have an idea why I'm here. You know, I just picked up a ring for Kelsey.

10:33 I want to ask her to marry me. But obviously I would like to get y'all's blessing. Silence.

10:37 And I'm like, this is a great start. This is a really great start. It took me 15 minutes to get

10:42 warmed up watching, you know, the price is right. And now here we are. And so her dad who hadn't said

10:48 five words to me, really, they become becomes a chatterbox. He's got lots of questions. So

10:53 without getting too much into it, I didn't grow up in church, started going to a Baptist church

10:57 in high school, their small town church, Christ, which is like its own, you know, they're the only

11:02 ones going to heaven and they study the Bible correctly. Everyone else is wrong and stupid, right?

11:05 And so they started asking me questions and I'm giving them answers that have the vernacular of

11:10 a Southern Baptist. And that's like, I might as well pour battery acid in their ears. And so like,

11:16 they don't like my answers, but I don't know that they don't like my answers. This went on for three

11:20 hours. Oh, no. Three hours, right? I thought I was going to be in and out, right? Three hours.

11:26 And then they stop talking. And then I go. So about that question that I asked earlier about,

11:36 you know, your wife's, you know, my, your daughter's hand in marriage, where are we at on that?

11:41 Dad doesn't say a word. Mom turns to me and says, well, we know you'll take care of her, but we're

11:48 just worried about the souls of our grandkids. Oh, I'm 22 years old. Grandkids are not anywhere

11:56 in this equation so far. And I'm like, what do I say? So I left there with not a no, but no answer

12:02 at all. I did not get a yes. I did not get a no. I was lukewarm as I go walking out of that house.

12:09 And so what's funny about this? So 14 be responsible for the eternal damnation of your future children,

12:14 which is no burden at all to carry out of there, right? And so here I got, I've spent almost all

12:18 my money on this ring. And I know I'm going to ask her part of me one to be like, look, you jerks,

12:23 like I'm going to ask her either way. I just want your blessing because I was raised to be polite.

12:26 What's wrong with y'all? And so I'm driving back two and a half hour drive. It's already like

12:30 really late. I've been lying to Kelsey all day about where I've been because I can't tell where

12:35 I've been. And who do I call? I call Matt Grassmeyer from the forging table of forging table fame

12:40 because, you know, he and I were friends in college. And I tell him kind of what went down.

12:45 And I'm like, yeah, man, I just need to start planning this engagement. And I'm going to,

12:49 you know, try to get fireworks. I'm going to try to do all the stuff. And he goes,

12:52 man, why are you doing all that? I'm like, doing all what? He's like, no, seriously,

12:57 like why does Kelsey is she going to care about fireworks? And like all that stuff. I'm like,

13:02 well, no. And he's like, okay, well, you're doing that for you, not for her. You should just ask her

13:05 tonight. And I'm like, well, I can't, I can't do that. It's got to be, you know, you hear all

13:10 these women tell these stories about these elaborate, you know, engagements and things like that. And

13:13 he goes, yeah, but we've already established she's not going to care about that. You should just

13:16 ask her tonight. So I drove to UCO where she was living on campus as a senior. And I have the ring

13:22 in my back pocket. I'm trying not to like turn around so she can't see this enormous box in my

13:26 back pocket of my slacks. And we just go walk around on campus and I'm like, okay, there's a,

13:30 if you've been to the UCO, UCO campus, there's a big lake in the middle of campus called Bronco

13:34 Lake. And I'm like, I'm going to go to Bronco Lake. And I'm going to ask her by the fountain,

13:37 it's going to be beautiful. Well, there's an Asian moon festival going on by the lake. And so

13:41 there's a bunch of Asians there dancing and banging on drums and being making a ruckus. And I'm like,

13:45 maybe I'm not supposed to ask her. And so I just literally walk off and we get, you know, in this

13:49 colluded place, a campus and I get down on one knee and I pray. And then I, then I ask her and she

13:54 says, yes, but that was kind of a long story. But basically to this day, I have not been accepted

14:02 by her family in terms of like, yeah, two thumbs up, you know, we're glad you married our daughter

14:06 kind of a thing. So once your kids are baptized, they'll be okay. Oh, they certainly, well, they're

14:11 probably not going to be baptized the exact correct way or maybe, you know, as long as they're

14:15 baptized, the church of Christ people be okay. But the church has instruments that they attend.

14:20 Isn't that a problem? Not a problem with their salvation. As long as they've been baptized,

14:24 they will get to heaven. Hey, I just want to say like the highs and lows of that day are extreme

14:30 for you. Goodness gracious explains a lot. I'm glad that you're here.

14:34 Well, that's, it's kind of a funny story, but it's kind of one of those things like,

14:40 again, you can't let your in-laws dictate how your family's going to be because when you

14:45 talk about leaving and cleaving and all that, would it be awesome if I had the world's

14:49 greatest relationship with my father in law and we had all these things in common and we can go

14:52 out and have a scotch and whatever or go out and hunt in Colorado or whatever, like some of the

14:56 stories that you guys have. Yeah, that would be cool. At the end of the day, I didn't marry him,

15:00 right? I didn't marry, you know, her family. I married her. And so like, that's the encouraging

15:04 thing. But man, we all kind of got jacked up stories. But Adam, yours is the worst because

15:08 you jacked that up. You know what? What if she just ran into some like beefy baseball player in the

15:14 meantime, like, and you're just sitting over there like waiting on the world's greatest time period.

15:18 I didn't tell you guys about me and my engagement, like my actual proposal.

15:22 Well, I mean, we're 15 minutes in, even though we're supposed to be talking about the Bible,

15:25 we might as well keep this going. Mine was worse, but go ahead. My proposal made up for it. So the

15:30 engagement was terrible, how long I waited, but the proposal was pretty spot on. So I had three

15:35 string quartet because she looks bad. It was Baylor's homecoming, which was where we had kind of our

15:40 first picture, our first date, first thing. I asked her on the suspension bridge, where it was where

15:44 we had our first date, we went to dinner, I had horse drawn carriage take us, I had asked her dad

15:50 on the phone for permission, which he granted it, but I didn't get asking for person in person.

15:54 So I had them waiting at the bridge and I went and asked permission in person and then walked her

16:00 down to an altar that we had set up and asked her there. That sounds like nine months worth of

16:04 planning. No, no, what you should have done is done all that. And then just not asked her.

16:08 Just like, don't do it. The best part of it was in true waco fashion. There was a homeless

16:16 person walking straight down the shot. So the picture is like me on my knee and there's a homeless

16:20 guy right behind us. Perfect. It was great. Yeah, that's good. Ryan hit your engagement story.

16:26 I guess we can talk about the Bible. My engagement story. So my dad and I have our

16:30 birthdays around the same time in December. And we always go to Chicago for Bears game.

16:34 Well, one of the players that he was working with no longer played for the Bears, playing for the

16:38 San Diego Chargers. So he's like, Hey, you want to go to San Diego? I'm like, sure, covering Rachel.

16:43 He's like, yeah. So Rachel and I were dating at this time. And so she's thinking I'm going to

16:47 propose she knows I'm I got the blessing she thinks I'm going to do it with her family and on Christmas.

16:52 So I'm like, Hey, we're going to San Diego for my birthday. I want you to come with me. I think

16:57 it'll be fun. And so I'm like, I want to propose there. So I told my mom and my sister to basically

17:03 tell her that I'm a real diva or a whole on my birthday. And so the whole time we're in San

17:10 Diego is like, Hey, first night we're going to go to this this bar sports bar. We're going to watch

17:16 the Iowa Iowa State game. Like we're in San Diego. You know, she's like, I want to go to the beach.

17:20 I'm like, no, we're going, we're going to go watch the Iowa State Iowa game at the bar.

17:25 We'll eat. We'll eat some chicken wings there the first night and everything. And so she's like,

17:30 and then she gave me a present. I'm like, Oh, this is nice. You know, like, just just, I mean,

17:36 by the time we're taking the cab to like downtown to that sports bar area, she's like sitting on

17:43 the other side like she's just ticked. And so I have them drop us off by a sports bar, but I already

17:49 had dinner planned at this other place, like right in that area. So it's right on the beach.

17:54 I was like, Hey, we've got like 15 minutes before the game starts. Like, why don't we just go down

17:58 to the beach real quick? And so we go down to the beach. And I'm like, Oh, the water is beautiful.

18:04 And then like a turnaround. I look at her and I get down on one knee. She's like, Oh my gosh,

18:07 you're doing this here. And I'm like, yeah. And so ask her to marry me. And and with a funny

18:14 thing about it is like this whole time I got like tunnel vision just like looking at her like,

18:18 you're you're sweating. Even though you know, she's going to say, yes, you're still sweating.

18:22 Yeah. You know, and I get done with it and I look over there's like a surfer sitting like five feet

18:26 in front of us. And there he's like, dude, I just saw that go down, bro. Congrats.

18:31 It's beautiful, bro. And that was the first kind of congratulate. Yeah. She's like,

18:35 are we really going to a sports bar? I was like, no, yeah, I got it. It's dinner reservations at

18:39 this place on the beach. But I was like, and I'm really not like that on my birthday. So she's like,

18:44 I thought something was wrong. So I think we've we have set a record. This is 18 minutes of

18:48 four dudes sitting around a table talking about the engagement and the wedding. Yeah. So we're like,

18:53 we think that was pretty couple of Susan's. Yeah, there's a bunch of chicks here. Okay,

18:57 we need that we needed to know I think that was perfect because as I mentioned about three hours

19:02 ago, we got to talk about the parable of the wedding feast. So Adam, how about you read the

19:07 parable of the wedding feast? So that is Matthew 22. I forgot what even book of the Bible we were

19:12 in Matthew 22. And that's verses one through 14. Verse one, Jesus spoke to them again and

19:18 parable saying the kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son.

19:23 He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come,

19:27 but they refused to come. Then he sent some more servants and said, tell those who have been

19:32 invited that I have prepared my dinner. My oxen and fat and cattle have been butchered,

19:36 and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet. But they paid no attention and went off.

19:41 One to his field, another to his business. The rest seized his servant. His servants mistreated

19:47 them and killed them. The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers

19:52 and burned the city. Then he said to his servants, the wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited

19:57 did not deserve to come. So go to the street corners and invite the banquet, anyone you find.

20:02 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people that they could find,

20:06 the bad as well as the good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests. But when the king came

20:12 in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. He asked,

20:16 how did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend? The man was speechless. Then the king told

20:21 the attendants, tie him hand and foot and throw him outside into the darkness where they will be

20:26 weeping and gnashing of teeth from many are invited, but few are chosen. So this is where we'll

20:33 pick up where we were kind of fighting a little bit last week or trying to fervently understand

20:37 one another. But really, the early part of this parable is showing God's patience because he

20:42 continues to invite people. So obviously, the person in charge of the wedding feast is God

20:47 in this. But you know, they pay no attention. There's there's apathy in this story. There's an unfathomable

20:52 level of disrespect. I mean, you send out your servants and they're killed by the people that

20:56 you've invited to come. But again, as with this, it's not just about the story. It's about who the

21:00 story is referring to. Verse seven, where it talks about it, burn their city. A lot of people think

21:05 that's an allusion to the destruction of the temple and 70 AD by the Romans. But I really want to

21:11 want to start off by talking about verse nine. So go therefore to the main roads and invite to the

21:16 wedding feast as many as you find. So this the just the use of the word invite seems to counter

21:24 some Calvinist theology, you know, why send out blanket imitations. The language of invitation

21:30 implies that it can be accepted or rejected. Right. So it's not a summons. It's not like,

21:36 you know, you have to come before the court. It's just an invitation. You get to choose

21:39 whether to opt in or opt out. And so I guess we can we can start the conversation there.

21:45 Well, actually, let me let me add one more thing before probably Ryan hops in first.

21:49 But verse 11. But when the king came to came in to look at the guests, he saw there was a man

21:56 that had no wedding garment. So something that's implied in the story is there was a

22:01 haste of invitations given out. So these people were not just on the streets already dressed like

22:07 they were going to a wedding. So it's implied that the king himself provided the garments,

22:12 right? And so this person in the story outright rejects, he rejects the wedding garment. So you

22:21 could assume that the king providing the garments is like what you could call imputed righteousness,

22:26 right? In terms of what this story is trying to describe. There's a really great quote from

22:31 John MacArthur's commentary that I want to read after we get into this discussion. But again,

22:36 right there in verse nine, the word in invite, I feel like kind of goes right against those people

22:41 that think that we bring nothing at all to our salvation because an invitation implies choice.

22:46 I disagree with you on the on the context of that, because if you look beginning in this verse,

22:51 when he's the invited guests, that would be the Jews Jerusalem. They were the invited guest,

22:59 and they are not taking the Messiah who is Christ. They're rejecting him. And so they're rejecting

23:04 the message of the gospel. And so now he's inviting not just the Jews anymore. He's inviting

23:09 the Gentiles. So that invitation is showing that that the gospel is for everybody, not just for the

23:16 Jews. And so can you mark this down as a day in history that I agree? This is about Jews, Jews

23:22 and Gentiles. I agree. It's it's it's the Jews were the ones who were invited, but the Gentiles are

23:29 also welcome. But if you look at if you look at the context of like how the Jews believe Gentiles

23:35 had no place in heaven, there is no way that they were going. And so now they have an invitation

23:40 through Christ through God, which is. And I think when it comes down to the other guy,

23:46 the guy who did not wear the the bridal clothing that chose not to crisis that bridal clothing.

23:54 And that guy specifically rejects Christ, even though he's heard the gospel, he sees it,

24:00 God has opened his eyes to it. But now he he rejects it. I do agree that I think it's a symbol

24:06 of righteousness is that exact same thing. And because he's wearing what seem to be dirty clothes

24:11 or inappropriate clothes, he's not righteous. That's why he's being thrown out. And you know,

24:16 Isaiah in Isaiah talks about all our righteousness are like filthy rags. So it's like he's chosen to

24:22 not put on the righteousness of Christ, but to present his own righteousness, the guy agreed 100%.

24:28 So I want to read this, this thing from the MacArthur commentary, because again,

24:32 if you're not familiar with John MacArthur, very, very reformed. I think he is permanently in cage

24:36 stage of Calvinism. I guess you could say even though he's like 80, so he can't yell us loudly.

24:41 But I thought that this was was absolutely fantastic. So if you're looking for this is in the MacArthur

24:45 Bible commentary, we are on page 1166 bottom right hand column. So if you're following

24:52 along, you can follow along there. Here then is the proper balance between human responsibility

24:58 and divine sovereignty. The quote called, unquote, who reject the invitation do so willingly. And

25:05 therefore their exclude. Can you not? Mm hmm. Sorry. When you try to do this, I'm just trying

25:08 to read this quote. No, no, amen. No, amen. No. Yeah, brothers. Okay. All right, let me start over.

25:13 The cold who reject the invitation do so willingly. And therefore their exclusion from the kingdom

25:19 is perfectly just the quote chosen unquote enter the kingdom only because of the grace of God

25:27 in choosing and drawing them. And so again, even in this statement, there's both sides of that,

25:33 you know, Spurgeon quote to where it's like, is it sovereignty or is it free will? And the answer

25:38 is yes. So limited atonement and irresistible grace in that one comment.

25:44 Right. I'll read it again because I there's so much here that's right. I read it slowly and

25:49 you could even still miss stuff. So here then is the proper balance between human responsibility

25:53 and divine sovereignty. The called who reject the invitation do so willingly. And therefore,

25:58 their exclusion from the kingdom is perfectly just the chosen enter the kingdom only because

26:03 of the grace of God in choosing and drawing them. And so I don't know if y'all have other

26:09 examples. This is one of the few times I've seen in writing or verbally where John MacArthur

26:14 acknowledges both because he's acknowledging responsibility of the human and divine sovereignty

26:20 at the same time. And I've always I feel like I've always acknowledged that you're called to

26:27 repentance. So God opens your eyes to the gospel and the beauty of it. Your choice comes in whether

26:32 you want to repent or not. I think you said last week and I want to ask you about this for people

26:37 that are in cage stage. First of all, let me make sure that that I'm describing this properly.

26:42 Would it be appropriate to assume that somebody that is in the cage stage of Calvinism would say

26:47 that we bring nothing to our salvation, salvation period end of story. If you're in cage stage,

26:54 you bring nothing to your salvation because I've heard that exact quote. I would assume I'm

26:58 I would want to lump everybody who's in a cage. Let's just speak in general. Yeah. In generalities,

27:03 I mean, I was at a place where like you bring nothing to your salvation. Okay. So that's an accurate

27:07 way of describing. But like here's where I start reading and I start wondering about, you know,

27:13 like to repent. So I think where I get caught up is that I always had this belief that if God

27:18 opened your eyes to the gospel, like you're just your eyes are open to it. You already see the

27:24 beauty you can't you can't you can't unseen that beauty. But the more that I read and the more that

27:30 I believe in a person's free will is that you have the free will to see that beauty. Your eyes are

27:35 open to that beauty. Your free will is to repent of your life and change or choose to live the life

27:41 and harden your heart and live the life that you're already living. I think that's where the choice

27:45 comes in. I feel like every time once I get to that point, the part where it starts to fall apart

27:49 for me is always limited atonement. I have a problem with limited atonement. And what you said was,

27:54 your choice comes to whether you choose to repent or not. And I would agree with that. But limited

27:59 atonement, purpose is which Jesus gave his life was limited to the elect. Like, how can it be

28:04 limited to the elect if we have choice to choose whether we repent or not. It's because

28:09 that is the hardest part of it. And I know there's a lot. I know I know there's a lot of Calvinist

28:16 that can get on board with the four points, but the fifth, you know, third, fifth being limited

28:22 atonement. That is a very difficult one for me to get on board with. But atonement is for the elect.

28:28 I mean, that's the crux of the election. That's the point. How can it be elect? And I still have

28:34 choice. How if if it's important for me to have choice and I have to repent, how is some how can

28:40 you be elect or not? You're if you're elect, then what does the repentance? It diminishes the

28:46 repentance. So do you think that do you think that everybody that hears the gospel sees the beauty of

28:50 it? No, that's the limited.

28:53 But boy, you're saying is that there's a predestined group that are chosen. We see that in verse 14

29:00 from here called, but few are chosen. That's the sticking point for most people is Oh, the Christ

29:06 death only counted for the elect that these other people literally from the big since before time

29:13 had no shot. And so that's where you get into people that are like, how can a Calvinist support

29:18 mission work? Like, why would a Calvinist try to catechize their kids? Because it's not going to

29:22 matter. They're either a lecture. They're not have to spread the seed. Your job is to spread the seed.

29:27 It's just like the the parable of the sower of the seed. Some seeds going to take hold. Some

29:32 seeds going to get caught in the thorns. Some seeds not even going to make it. So there's some of that

29:36 seed that gets caught in the thorns. They hear they hear the gospel, they hear it, but they want to

29:41 live their own life. There's some of the seed that gets caught and it starts growing, but it

29:46 doesn't get watered. It doesn't get discipled and they fall away like like hearing a story about a

29:51 buddy who believes in God and everything but loses his job. And this now he's like, I don't think

29:56 there's a God. You know what I'm saying? So, so he's seen the gospel. He's seen the beauty of it,

30:01 but is he elect? I don't know. But if God is sovereign, where do I come in the equation?

30:07 Why? Because if I don't do it, if God, you know, preordained me to be the one to share the gospel

30:12 with my three year old, when he turns, I don't know whatever age he can start to understand it.

30:16 If I just choose not to do that, is he, is he not sovereign to put someone else in his life?

30:21 You weren't chosen to do it then. But I still get choice as to whether or not I do it.

30:26 You can, you can share the gospel with as many people as you want. How many people have you

30:30 shared the gospel with? Literally thousands, thousands. And then do you think you, you think

30:36 all thousands of those people have been saved? Of course not. No. So you, you could have shared

30:41 the gospel with 500 of those people and they didn't do anything. But then somebody three or four

30:46 years down the line shares the gospel with them and their eyes are open to it. I know I agree with

30:50 that. The, the problem that we run into is why would I feel a compulsion to share the gospel?

30:56 If God is sovereign and, and we'll get his elect in the end, because then you have to start arguing,

31:01 are certain people elect going to actually miss out on heaven because somebody else didn't do,

31:06 didn't do their part? Because we're all called. We're, we're called through obedience to share

31:10 the gospel. Just because I believe that God is sovereign doesn't mean I'm going to give up on

31:15 everything that God has me to do. You know, the Bible calls us to go and preach the good news.

31:21 So we have to do that out of obedience. Do, do, you know, we want to talk about giving

31:27 and then offering. Do we do, do we give an offering because we want blessings like Micah or not Micah

31:33 Malachi three eight? No, we give our offering out of obedience, but we still get to choose whether

31:38 or not we're obedient. That that's the crux like to choose every night, whether you're obedient

31:44 to Christ all the time. It's called, it's called free. Like you get to choose whether you're going to

31:48 watch that porno and play with yourself or if you're going to drink that drink that you know is going

31:53 to lead you down to a bad path. Like you have a choice to do that all the time. So you have a

31:58 choice to share the gospel. And so you have the choice to do that. We do it out of obedience. We

32:03 don't do it because, Oh God's sovereign. So I don't have to do anything. It's just like, Hey, God's,

32:09 God's gonna, it's like the people who think God's going to heal them, but don't want to use modern

32:13 medicine to fix what ailment that they may have. It's like, yeah, God healed people in the Bible,

32:18 but he still calls you to go see a doctor. You know, so you can't just say, well, I'm a Calvinist,

32:24 and I believe that God is sovereign and that if people are elect, they're going to, they're

32:27 going to hear the gospel. So that means I don't do nothing. I don't know if I share the gospel

32:33 if someone's going to hear it and that God, that's, that's an elected person. I'm doing it out of

32:37 obedience because God has asked me to do that. I give the missions out of obedience because I

32:42 want the gospel spread everywhere so that they people have the chance to hear it. And then, and

32:49 then if it's in a place where there where God's elected somebody and the gospel isn't spread,

32:54 it's done through dreams, it's done through many other aspects that people have come to Christ.

32:58 So God's gonna God's gonna do what God has planned. He doesn't need just me to do it. He'll use me

33:06 how he needs to use me. He'll use you how he needs to use you. But it doesn't mean I get to sit on

33:11 the sidelines and let him do all the work. It still feels like again, none of us are God, but it feels

33:18 like a flaw in the plan. If there is an elect and at the same time we're called to go spread the

33:22 gospel. Why are we spreading the gospel if there's already an elect? I just have a hard time what

33:28 what's the hard time rationalizing that because you're asked to do something you already made.

33:32 The decision's already been made. It's what pre decided. Why do I need to go? Why would God give

33:38 which I agree with you? I agree to that is what we're called to do. And most people don't myself

33:42 included do not do a good job of doing that. And I feel like we are called to do that. That's what

33:48 we're supposed to do. If we're supposed to do that, but God has already made the decision.

33:53 Why do I need to spread the gospel? Because he has dominion over you.

33:59 That still doesn't answer the question though. Because you're right. But it doesn't answer the

34:05 question. Your question is like, all right, God's already picked the people he wants to pick.

34:09 So I don't have to do anything. No, it's so even if I choose to not do anything,

34:14 he already picked them. They're they're already in the club. If you choose not to do it,

34:18 then you choose not to do it. But I don't know any Calvinist person that I know of that doesn't

34:25 want to go and spread the gospels are like, well, God so sovereign, I don't have to do anything.

34:29 The problem is, is it doesn't make sense why they would share the gospel. Because if they are

34:34 elect, that means they're already in the club. Why does Christ talk about the chosen

34:38 here? Why is why is he just why is he telling people to go out? If people are already chosen,

34:45 why is he telling people to go out and spread his message? I think you're arguing a point that

34:48 we've already conceded. The point that we've already conceded is that we are to do what Jesus

34:52 tells us to do what God tells us to do. But he's already telling you people are chosen.

34:56 Which is the crux of our issue. I've taken feel free to hop in here because I feel like we're

35:01 talking past each other at this point. I just don't understand where you guys are coming from,

35:07 that if they're already elect, why do we have to share the gospel? That's your question, right?

35:12 If if they're already in the club, if they were before time picked by God to accept the gospel,

35:19 it makes no difference whether or not I share it. Because they're already in the club.

35:24 They have to hear it first. They don't have to hear it from me.

35:28 Doesn't matter. But God could use you to hear it. But if we're part of God's plan for spreading

35:37 the gospel, shouldn't we have a motivation to do that? So if the motivation to do that

35:44 is that every ear show here and every knee shall bow, right? If I feel like if I'm hearing it and

35:52 I think, well, I'm gonna go tell everybody, John 3 16, for all God loved the whole world so much

36:00 that he gave a son, whoever believes in him shall not perish and have everlasting life.

36:05 But might not be you, right? So don't worry about it. If it's not, I'm going to keep going down the

36:11 road. You know what I mean? It's like, it just incentivizes me to be an active evangelist.

36:19 Have an incentive. That's my question. We're so full of ourselves.

36:23 No, just let me finish. We're so full of ourselves that we have to have an incentive to be obedient.

36:30 Look at people. Look at these churches now when it comes to giving and offering,

36:35 that we have to have an incentive of three months before we even think before we see blessings to

36:43 give an offering. Like, you know why you got and spread the gospel? It's because that's what he's

36:47 asked you to do and you do that of obedience. I don't agree. But, but, but, but to throw out

36:51 John 3 16 like that and then say, well, I don't know if you're elect, you don't know that. You

36:55 don't know that at all. And so to end it that way, it's kind of, no, that's the point, Ryan.

37:01 No, but I'm just saying it doesn't make any sense except that it does. I don't see it. Please open

37:07 my eyes to this. Well, I mean, the, the brokenness of this world means that incentive matters.

37:13 I mean, that's, that's the incentive is Christ. No, no, no, having the need to have an incentive.

37:18 I know who the incentive is. But what I'm saying is like, and I'm not saying it for me personally,

37:23 I, I certainly should be take, I should be more aggressive in my, in my sharing, right? Like,

37:33 it should be closer to the top of the, who are you and what do you do, right? It should be above that.

37:40 More of a spiritual inquiry. But what I'm saying is, is I, I do see that God has included us in

37:45 his plan, of course. And his plan has nothing to do with our success. No, his success. Right.

37:52 So I'm just, I feel like if I'm included in his plan, then just from a humanly perspective,

38:00 like, should I not feel like, should I not, should I not be able to celebrate in the joy of executing

38:09 his plan? Of course you should. So, but you guys are coming back with, with saying that,

38:15 because there are people that, because if you believe that people are elected,

38:20 that you shouldn't share the gospel at all. That's not what anyone has said.

38:23 That's what it sounds like. You're saying, what's the point of me sharing the gospel,

38:29 if people are already, you're talking about, you're using language. Okay, I can see how

38:33 it could come across that way. I honestly do. I think we're, we're getting mixed up on,

38:39 incentivizing something versus compelling something. And so you're right. Some people need to be

38:45 incentivized to do something before they do it. It's stupid. It's to pray. It's weird. Okay.

38:49 But it's feeling compelled to do it as if I am a cog in the wheel. So I have two sons.

38:54 And I have been, so I think you mentioned it list this week or last week, you know,

38:58 saying up a night, you know, wondering, Oh my gosh, did I accidentally blaspheme the Holy Spirit?

39:02 I keep wondering and I'm terrified that one of my sons is not elect. And they're going to be raised

39:07 in the same home, go to the same school have probably the same teacher, same mom and dad,

39:12 same exposure to the gospel message, but preordained before time, Eli or James, or both of them are

39:21 not elect, both of them might be elect. And so them growing up in my house and me showing them

39:27 a gospel example and preaching the gospel over them for their entire lives, at least for as long

39:32 as they live in my home, doesn't matter because God selected them or he didn't. And I think that

39:39 so we're getting off on what we should be doing. Because I think all of us agree with you, we should

39:42 share the gospel. I don't think anyone's going to argue that we shouldn't. We're saying the

39:46 essential nature of sharing the gospel doesn't come into play if God's sovereignty reigns overall.

39:53 Got but God's everything does rain overall. Like, I don't understand why you like,

39:59 why don't you see it that way? Like what? No, I agree with you that God's sovereignty raises

40:04 overall. So if I am disobedient to God's plan, because there's God's perfect will will and there's

40:10 God's realized will. So there's the perfect will if sin never entered the earth, like here's how

40:15 everything here's how the cookie was always supposed to crumble. And then there's okay,

40:19 we're not automatons. We're not robots. We are conscience beings that can zig or zag can choose

40:25 A or B can do one or two. And so if God's plan is for us to zig choice a and then number one,

40:32 and we do the exact opposite, his sovereignty will reign overall. We agree with that, which goes back

40:40 to, I think, Adam's concern from the beginning, correct me if I'm wrong, Adam, which is that if

40:44 God is sovereign and shows these people before time before creation, then what we do plays no,

40:53 it doesn't have to play any factor. God can use us in the plan, and we can opt into that plan or

40:58 we can opt out. But if I was supposed to lead Eli to Christ, and I didn't do my job, but he is

41:04 sovereignly picked as part of the elect, someone else will share the gospel and open his eyes,

41:09 or a dream will come to him. And God's will would be gone. Yeah, no, I agree with that.

41:14 So what are we missing? I kind of got lost in the fact that I feel like you guys are using like

41:21 elect as a scapegoat as to not as to not a scapegoat. I don't think any because those are

41:27 advocating for not sharing sounds like it just sounds like, well, if you're elected, like what's

41:31 the point of sharing the gospel? Like because I get that all the time. It's like because we need to

41:36 be obedient and share the gospel. I don't if I go and share the gospel, do I hope five people

41:40 hear it and become saved? Yes, I do. For me, it's not what's the point. It's if God is sovereign,

41:47 which I believe that he is, he doesn't need me to. It's not what's the point. This, this, this is

41:53 like an exercise in futility. It's that he doesn't need me to do it because these people were

41:58 pre selected for this club and they're in. And well, yeah, but some they have to hear the gospel

42:03 though. So, but not for me. I don't know where you're going from with the not not for me.

42:10 It I can't I don't have the language to explain it. So like look at it this way. You had the guys

42:16 that you went and spoke to at the at the prison. Right. Some of them heard the gospel from you.

42:21 Some of them have repented and believed. Right. Correct. You were used. Some of them didn't hear it.

42:26 Or some of them heard it and didn't even take it. Maybe you walked you out or something.

42:30 Those five guys needed to hear it from you and they heard it. You did what and you did it because

42:36 that's what you're called to do. So right. If I'm if I'm if my whole motive is sharing

42:42 of sharing the gospel is to see how many people I can get to come to Christ. That's not the motive.

42:47 My motive is to share the beauty of the gospel. We agree. But if somebody exercising their free will

42:53 had shot me in the head before I walked into Lewisburg prison in Pennsylvania that day.

42:57 And those five guys were going to accept the gospel call based on the words that I used to

43:02 point them to the father. But you're using you're using something that you have no control over.

43:06 Well, of course, we're using that parallel universe example. Yeah, but it's a parallel universe.

43:12 You live in the universe that God has created and God made sure that you were protected

43:16 walking into Lewisburg prison because you were supposed to be there to tell those guys those

43:20 things. You can't just be like, Well, what if I got shot in the head who how those guys wouldn't

43:24 be elect anymore? I mean, that's like, what if I was never born? What if Christ never came? You

43:29 know, like the parallel universe. I think I think it would have been the opposite,

43:32 not that they wouldn't have been elect before it had been. They would have been elect already

43:36 regardless of Kyle being involved or not. So, so if Kyle not being in Kyle not being involved

43:43 or not spreading the gospel would have made a difference for them. I think you're using like

43:48 made up examples. Okay, then take that example off the table. What if I walked in and chose not

43:52 to speak? Okay, I just took it off the table. Okay, so I walked in. Wait, I walked in and I

43:57 chose to not share the gospel. I chose to give a TED talk and explain to these guys how they can

44:02 better pass their time in Lewisburg until they finally die or they're released. So I made the

44:07 conscious decision to not share the gospel. You made a conscious decision not to share the gospel.

44:11 God would already have known that and they would have heard if they were elect, they would hear

44:14 the gospel someplace, but they were supposed to hear it from me. That was God's plan. If that was

44:18 God's plan, you would have done it. We never do almost none of us do God's plan almost all day

44:24 every day. What are you talking about? They're going to hear it from from the moment you were

44:28 born. You were not doing God's plan in some time or another. Like if you were only doing God's plan,

44:33 does everything work out? Did Rahab not do God's plan? But you can't advocate that

44:39 we're doing God's plan when we sin. No, I'm not. I'm talking about. So there's times when we're

44:44 not following God's plan. There's times when we're not following God's plan. I get that 100%.

44:48 But the, but you're saying it wouldn't have been his plan. If God's plan was for me to share the

44:54 gospel at Lewisburg prison, and I chose not to, you're saying, well, then that wasn't his plan.

44:58 It's like, you can't have it both ways. It was either his plan or it wasn't his plan. It's not

45:03 the plan based on the outcome. So you're now using the outcome of whether something is his plan,

45:08 but then using sin is not his plan. No, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is my,

45:13 his plan for me was to walk into that prison and share the gospel. That was his plan. But I have

45:19 free will and choice and autonomy in the matter. And I could have walked in with that intention to do

45:24 that and felt like it was God's plan and chose not to. Do you think God's not sovereign over that?

45:29 Sovereign in what way? I'm just saying you think God's not sovereign on that situation.

45:34 God is sovereign on everything else, but whether you choose to share the gospel or not,

45:38 because if he could compel me to share the gospel against my will, then I have no free will. If I have

45:45 no free will, I have no choice whether or not to accept his free gift of grace and to love him,

45:50 because that's what CS Lewis talks about. A world worth full of automatons is not a world worth

45:55 creating because they were compelled to do something like a computer is compelled to spit out a

45:59 solution to a math problem. You should be so in love with the gospel and what God has done for you

46:04 and through your depravity that you want to share the gospel. I agree. But what if I choose not to

46:09 that? Okay, then you choose not to, but I don't even know what the people are still going to hear

46:18 it. I mean, I don't but not from me, but which was God's plan. Yeah, you're just using like

46:23 different parallel. No, no, no, I already took that off the table. I took that argument completely

46:27 away from you went over there. You went over there and you you spread the gospel. And now you're

46:31 like, well, what if I decided not to spread the gospel? You know, like, really, you would you

46:36 would decide not to spread the gospel when you got there? It's my decision. Because they were,

46:41 they might have already been all right. You guys, you guys can use wherever you want about your

46:44 free will. Let's, let's caveat. Let's caveat with something that's important. I love these discussions.

46:48 These discussions are incredibly important, but let's not let them distract us from the fact that

46:52 they don't change what the gospel is. Oh, yes. These are not an issue of salvation. You do not

46:56 change whether or not someone is saved. They're important discussions to have, but it does not

47:02 change. They're not something. They're not so exactly. So, but we can all agree that Ham's

47:06 awesome. Like we all trash and demons should be cast in all hands. It's actually late. It's

47:15 actually late right now. I could totally I could go to the store right now and cook a ham and stay

47:19 up when I bite into a piece of ham. I don't think I don't say that. No, it's like it's like a it's

47:25 like a demon flavor with the texture of an eraser. Exactly. I think I've actually got a pitch fork

47:31 one time inside of a piece. You know, is that the wish I had? Is that the Armenian taste buds? Yeah,

47:36 I kind of wish you had gotten that pitch fork stuck in your throat. Okay. Well, hey, we're 45

47:42 minutes in and we've gotten about 12 verses in. So go us. But guess what, guys, we have a bonafide

47:48 tax man in our midst. Yes. And so he is going to be the one to read this next part here. So Adam,

47:55 the if you literally your entire world, your entire life, working in spreadsheets has led to this

48:01 moment where you are going to read about paying taxes to Caesar Matthew 22 verses 15 through 22

48:07 hit it. My favorite parable 15. Then the Pharisees went out and laid plans to trap him in his words.

48:14 They sent their disciples to him along with the Herodians teacher. They said, we know that you

48:19 are a man of integrity and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. You aren't

48:23 swayed by others because you pay no attention to who they are. Tell us then, what is your opinion?

48:28 Is it right to pay the imperial tax to Caesar or not? But Jesus, knowing their evil intent said,

48:34 you hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? Show me the coin used for paying the tax.

48:39 They brought him a denarius and he asked them, whose image is this and whose inscription?

48:45 Caesar's they replied. And he said to them, so give back to Caesar, what is Caesar's and to God,

48:50 what is God's? When they heard this, they were amazed. So they left him and went away.

48:55 All right, tax man, I know you got a lot to say on this one. So go for it.

48:58 You know, I have read this scripture so many times. I've actually taught on this in our Sunday

49:04 school several times because as a CPA, I'm constantly confronted with not only people that want to

49:10 reduce their taxes, but people that don't want to pay their taxes at all. And when people come to

49:15 me and they're like, can I just create some expenses and make my taxable income go down,

49:21 just pull it out of thin air and not pay anything? I'm like, no, we can't do that. That's not allowed.

49:27 When we read the scripture, we're reminded that the money that we're paying for our taxes is not

49:32 our home. It's not, it's not our money. It's been given to us. And it's also been created by the

49:38 government. We're giving them their money back. So yes, you have to pay your taxes, paying your taxes.

49:43 And I've also the same complaint I've heard is, you know, what about when the government does

49:47 things that we don't agree with? You know, what if the government is funding abortions or the

49:51 government is funding programs that we find repulsive? You know, what do we do about those

49:57 things? Those are things that we can't control. Those are the things that we advocate and we try

50:02 to get godly men in positions to try and make good decisions. But that is not a reason to not

50:08 pay your taxes either. I think that's all very true. We always enjoy whenever you you teach, you

50:13 basically teach that every single year. And there's so much here that that can be lost. I mean,

50:18 you have the Pharisees, which, you know, basically we're rejecting Rome, the Herodians, they were

50:23 political but not religious, right? So I don't really know what the corollary would be for today,

50:27 but they supported Rome. So you have these people on opposite ends of the spectrums. You have the

50:31 Herodians and Sadducees, and then you've got the Pharisees and they come together because they're

50:35 like, we're going to get them this time. Like we're going to give them the ultimate zinger.

50:38 They're setting a trap because if Jesus says, no, you shouldn't pay to Caesar, then they will be

50:42 charged, you know, they can charge him with treason against Rome, which you, you know, would get

50:46 him crucified. So they kind of had the same result. But if he says, yes, then he will be charged with

50:52 just disloyalty to Israel. And so it's like you're on either side of this coin, no pun intended to

50:58 where it's just like there is no correct answer. And you know, Jesus knew that the Jews hated the

51:03 poll tax and they knew that they felt like it was an intrusive tax. And the thing was, if Jesus said,

51:09 no, you don't need to pay to pay this to Caesar, it would have made the mob happy. I mean, think

51:14 about it. So I think about this all the time. So no matter when y'all are listening to this,

51:18 because some people are listening to this on time, some of you are listening to it six months from

51:21 now, if there's an election, even in a local election, there are going to be some things that I can

51:26 predict. I have been predestined to tell you guys what I know exactly is going to happen.

51:30 People are going to promise that teachers are going to get paid more. People are going to at

51:34 least Republicans are going to promise to bring your taxes down. Democrats are going to promise

51:37 to bring the amount of money you get from the government up. There are all these things that

51:41 are basically just guaranteed because it's mob, it's red meat to the mob. And so if you want to get,

51:47 you know, single moms in a suburb to vote for you, you say, yeah, we're going to pay the teachers

51:52 more. And we're going to make the dog park prettier. And it's like people just throw and they'll just

51:56 like go ahead and vote for you as if that's something that you're actually going to do.

51:59 Even those, those things never actually happen. But he doesn't give the red meat to him.

52:02 Because he's God, he's not a political figure. He's operating in a political sphere and in a

52:08 political world. But he's not going to be, he's not going to allow you to put him into the category

52:13 of we're only going to deal with this in a political manner. What else do you guys?

52:16 Man, I see that like the Pharisees, they've, they've come, right? They've come, they've been

52:21 confused. He's kind of like, you know, really beating them down with some, some, like, oh, yeah,

52:27 well, here, how about this? You know, and he's like served him some of their own medicine. So

52:30 they've left and they've come back. And now they've like, they're getting desperate because you can

52:34 see that they're looping in two other groups that they do not get along with, right? Like,

52:38 they're like, Oh my gosh, like we got to have other people who would also be

52:42 incentivized to do something about this guy. And they go basically team up, you know, so it's,

52:49 it's like, Hey, the Republicans and the Democrats, all of a sudden are teaming up on somebody else.

52:54 And you're like, wow, this other dude must be a big threat to them. Right. So you can, that's the

52:58 first thing I got here is like the Pharisees don't like the Sadducees who don't like the

53:03 Herodians who don't like the Pharisees. Like this is, this is big time desperation on their part.

53:08 Desperation is a perfect word. Anything else on that before we move on, since we spent so much

53:13 time talking about weddings and fighting about stuff? All I'm saying is that I just don't pay

53:17 my taxes. I hope that somebody comes along and pays them for me. Don't say that.

53:20 Don't say that. God, that's evidence now. That's going to be brought into evidence.

53:25 I was now we're all paying my taxes. I have a tax attorney. We're all going to get audited.

53:29 Now every last one of us, we did have a client that wrote a letter to the president that he

53:34 believed he did not need to pay taxes. No joke. IRS showed up at his door, man. I pay my taxes.

53:40 Don't don't write the president a letter that says you're not going to pay your taxes.

53:43 Boy, not recommend that. So is he still a client? This was in 1992. So at the time I was eight,

53:49 so I don't know the details after that. So you were doing his returns?

53:53 I was doing his taxes. All right, that makes sense crazy.

53:57 All right, Ryan, if you can hit versus 23 through 33, we won't spend a ton of time here,

54:02 but let's hit this section. Jesus answers the Sadducees on the day that some Sadducees who say

54:08 there there is no resurrection came to Jesus and questioned him saying teacher Moses said,

54:14 if a man dies having no children, his brother as next of kin shall marry his wife and raise up

54:19 children or his brother. Now there were seven brothers among us and the first married and

54:24 died having no children. He left his wife to his brother. It was the same also with the second

54:30 brother and the third down to the seventh. Last of all, the woman died in the resurrection. Therefore,

54:36 in the resurrection, therefore, whose wife will the whose wife of the seven will she be,

54:43 where they all had her in marriage. But Jesus answered and said to them,

54:48 you are mistaken, since you do not understand the scriptures nor the power of God, for in the

54:52 resurrection, they neither marry nor give in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. But regarding the

54:58 resurrection of the dead, I have I have not read what was spoken to to you by God. I am the God of

55:06 Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. He is not the God of the dead, but God of the living.

55:13 When the crowds heard this, they were astonished of his teaching.

55:16 Like I said, I didn't want to spend a whole lot of time here, but is is the sense that y'all get

55:21 that. Okay, we see in Luke nine that we will recognize people in heaven. So when people think

55:29 that we're all just going to be like cherubs up there, you know, flying around playing harps and

55:33 all that type of stuff, and we won't know anybody, we're just going to be hanging out in the clouds

55:36 staring at Jesus all day. It's we get the idea from scripture that we will know people in heaven,

55:41 we will recognize people in heaven, but that we won't recognize them as their title to who they

55:47 were in our lives. So this was not my best man at my wedding. This was not my pastor. This was not

55:53 my dad. This was not my wife, that these are just other heavenly beings. And we're all there for the

56:01 same purpose, which is to worship Jesus. Is that kind of the sense that y'all are getting? I got

56:06 yeah, I get that sense, but I also think it's funny because a sad he talks about us being like

56:11 angels in heaven, and the Sadducees didn't believe in angels. So they were like, so that's kind of

56:17 like a like a diss to them saying like, Hey, we're going to be like angels, because angels didn't

56:23 have genitalia, they didn't propagate. So there was no reason for marriage. Yeah, and so so they

56:29 they didn't believe in angels in the afterlife. So it's ironic that they're the ones asking this

56:33 question, first of all, but then Jesus knows that. And he goes, and you know, so the Sadducees

56:38 recognize the Torah and nothing passed. So his response to them is from Exodus, right? Like from

56:44 the part that they, you know, where he's saying, you know, he is not the God of the dead, but of

56:48 the living, you know, and so it's like, again, it's like the people around are like, Oh, this dude is

56:54 on fire. You know, it's like, dude, like do not ask him another question, because he is going to

56:59 smoke you. Well, he starts out with a burn. You are wrong, because you know, neither the scripture

57:03 nor the power of God and the Sadducees were like, no, we've cornered the market on knowing the

57:08 scriptures and the power. We got the Pharisees, the Herodians, the Sadducees, we're all here.

57:12 Like what throws an angels? What did we miss? Yeah. Well, so that that kind of made me sad

57:17 initially. I was like, I'm not going to recognize my wife in heaven, but it's like, but you you will

57:22 recognize them, but just not. So that's what made me so sad last year, when freaking Joby,

57:28 I asked him on my show, Joby Martin, I said, Hey, man, is my dog going to be with me in heaven?

57:34 Because my dog is my best friend. He's sitting here at my feet right now. And he goes, yeah,

57:37 you know, we got to sense that there's animals in heaven, but your dog's not going to be their

57:41 man. And you're not even going to care. And I was like, how dare you. It's true. Tell me that my dog

57:46 won't be there in that I somehow won't care. And he was just like, dude, do you care that you

57:49 don't have your binky anymore? Because your binky was the most important thing to you when you're

57:53 a year and a half old. But do you even think about it now? And I was like, my dog is not a binky. You're

57:58 making me sad. Stop it. You're just going to be happy to be there in heaven in God's presence

58:02 and worshiping, whether you're in the front row or the back row, whether you're first or the last,

58:07 you're just going to be happy to be there. But I agree with kind of like, I do want this kind of

58:11 sense of like, when I'm there, the joy that I have when I'm with my wife, I want to have just a

58:17 little bit of that. Like, is there are there, like, if I recognize her, is there going to be,

58:22 I know, but, but like joy, you know, joy of the Lord, you know, like, God is love. I love my wife,

58:28 like, is there going to be, is there going to be any sense of like, knowing that this person was

58:34 important to me? I don't think, but that's comes, I'm with Joby on this one. It's not going to matter.

58:40 Like, we're trying to take human feelings. No, I know it won't matter. But what I'm saying is,

58:45 we're trying to take human feelings for our dogs or for our wives. And we're trying to,

58:49 we're trying to bring that to heaven. But the feeling in heaven is going to be far more greater.

58:53 I get it. And the love feeling that you have for your wife.

58:55 No, I get it. I just want an idea where you guys are, like, what are we going to be bad?

58:59 Like, what are we going to be doing? Yeah, I get it.

59:01 Is it one long Hillsong concert in heaven?

59:03 Because it's so, Hillsong is heretical. Okay. Well, okay. I'm just like, it's a long shade in

59:07 shade concert. I just wanted to shut it. Long, long robes and long robes and harps. Dude,

59:12 it's just worship. It's just like, we're in the presence of God, we're in awe of the beauty.

59:17 But are we like, are we able to like play baseball in heaven?

59:20 Can we hit like eight hundred from them? Whenever we want like, I'm going to throw this.

59:24 I'm going to throw this out because Dagan was worried about his wife. How did, what kind of

59:28 awe are you in on the day you married your wife when you saw her walk down that aisle?

59:32 Oh my gosh. Like as much awe as I could have on this planet.

59:36 Take that times and I get it. And that's what it's going to be.

59:38 Well, I know when he says I'm going to go prepare a place for you. Like,

59:41 as beautiful as all these places are, like, I know that I can't even fathom what he's got in store.

59:46 Yeah, like I get it. But I get it. So if I love. So if I love to be in mountains.

59:50 Are they just big mountains? Because if they put me, if I get sunburned in heaven,

59:54 I'm going to be so [inaudible]. Put me on the beach. I mean, come on.

59:57 Is there sunburned in heaven? I'm on the golden sense. I have the best sunscreen.

1:00:02 This is what I think about the heaven. I don't think about, oh, I'm going to get a place in the

1:00:05 mountains. I'm like, I'm just going to be happy to be in the back row in the nosebleed section.

1:00:10 Oh, are you going to have that perspective and be like, I made it. I can't believe I made it.

1:00:14 I'm like, I'm so glad I thought I was first and I'm the last one here. But you know what?

1:00:19 I'm the last one here. Thank you. God. Are you telling me you wouldn't want a golden cabin in

1:00:23 the heavenly woods? Like, come on, man. Like that would be super awesome. No, I would sleep.

1:00:27 I would sleep on the outside of the gates of heaven. Just be happy to be close to it.

1:00:31 Okay. All right. We're getting off into the theory. I think it's because it's super late.

1:00:35 And we're still not even near being done. We haven't even gotten to the part of Matthew 22,

1:00:40 which is the most famous of all the stuff from this like section of scripture. So

1:00:45 Dagan, if you could hit the great commandment, so that is Matthew 22 starting at verse 34 and go

1:00:51 to verse 40. Now, the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees. They gathered together.

1:00:58 One of them, a lawyer asked Jesus a question to test him, teacher, which is the greatest

1:01:04 commandment in the law. And Jesus replied to him, you should love your Lord. You should love the

1:01:09 Lord, your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first

1:01:13 and greatest commandment. The second is like it. You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

1:01:18 The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.

1:01:23 I kind of feel sheepish adding anything to this because it is very straightforward. Again,

1:01:30 he's asked a question from a intellectual elite. He's asked to give one answer. He gives two.

1:01:37 And somehow being asked a singular question and giving a multiple answer seems to make sense here.

1:01:42 I mean, again, guys, I don't feel the need to add anything here, but I'm curious if you guys

1:01:47 wanted to throw some more stuff out. My only thought is he breaks it down to like for us,

1:01:52 it's so simple. And yet I struggle so mildly with it. Like, love your neighbor as yourself.

1:01:59 I got one neighbor that I want to win the lottery and I got another one that I'll be jealous of

1:02:04 if they do. It's so simple and yet I can't do it. I suck it up as exact. Well, not even that,

1:02:15 but loving God is primary. Loving God's number one, your neighbor's number two, and I suck at both.

1:02:21 Yeah, and oftentimes move myself to the top. Like he doesn't even put me in there.

1:02:26 Yeah, on a regular basis, multiple times a day.

1:02:28 Well, and don't some people, I mean, there are a lot of people that are like,

1:02:31 well, I can't love my neighbor as myself because I hate myself.

1:02:34 And I mean, I've been there, like, I don't know about you guys, but you know,

1:02:37 I have a propensity for negative emotion and pessimism. And yeah, I know shock.

1:02:42 This is a shocking revelation that everyone in our audience is hearing for the first time.

1:02:46 But I will say that they're there have 100% been times in my life where, and I've talked about

1:02:51 this on the show, this shouldn't be shocked anybody to where I intellectually considered suicide.

1:02:56 So I make a strong delineation between, I did not consider suicide in terms of like, okay,

1:03:03 if I did it, I could do it like this, or I could do it like that. It wasn't like that.

1:03:06 But it was a consideration in my brain of like, okay, let's weigh the pros and cons of this,

1:03:13 but not because I was trying to decide if I was actually going to do it. So hopefully I'm making

1:03:17 a clear delineation there. But you know, things in my life, circumstances were not the way that I

1:03:22 want it. I'm looking at, you know, the value of what I am dead based on what my insurance policies

1:03:27 say and the value that I'm bringing alive. And I'm, you know, putting myself into this continuum,

1:03:31 and I'm haunted by the verse that says the one that does not, you know, provide for his family

1:03:35 is worse than an unbeliever. And no one around me seems to care about that verse nearly as much as

1:03:40 I do. And I just thought about it. And so in that moment, if you said love your neighbor,

1:03:44 like yourself, I was like, good, that requires nothing of me because I don't love anything about

1:03:48 me. And I mean, I feel like a lot of people are there, because we live in the most doped up

1:03:54 medicated time period in the history of our country in the history of the world. And you have people

1:03:59 that are literally crying into their $1000 smartphone in their 3000 square foot house

1:04:06 with brand new cars in the garage. They have a house for their cars. They have food in the fridge

1:04:12 and like their their lives are pretty much squared away, but they are just stuck in this wheel of

1:04:17 depression, which makes them hate themselves. I think when we look at love your neighbor as

1:04:22 yourself, love is a verb and not a feeling. So you may not feel in love with yourself,

1:04:27 but you love yourself enough that you're taking care of yourself. To a point, like you're you're

1:04:33 eating, you're you're getting up, you're sleeping. And so I like to look at it as, as you know,

1:04:40 treat your neighbor as you want to be treated. So I want to treat my neighbor how I would want

1:04:45 my neighbor to treat me. I'm going to treat my neighbor as I would want you to treat me. So like,

1:04:51 I I we get into the greatest commandment. And this is a summation of all the 10 commandments.

1:04:58 But we have this new, you know, being nice is the the 11 command the 11 commandment. And it's not

1:05:05 about being nice. It's about treating your neighbor as you want to be treated. Now, if I know I'm in

1:05:10 sin, and I have a neighbor who is in Christ that's in sin, I want to treat him the same way I'd

1:05:16 want to be treated if I was in sin, I'd want some conviction. But sometimes we have neighbors that

1:05:20 aren't into Christ. And they they aren't believers. So I'm going to treat them maybe a little bit

1:05:24 differently. Then I will treat myself to a point. I would treat them probably nicer and with less

1:05:30 condemnation or conviction. But I think when we think about it as love your neighbor as yourself,

1:05:37 we have this feeling that love is just the feeling. And we don't really look at it as an

1:05:42 action or verb anymore. I would agree with that. Guys, let's hit this last section. Whoever wants

1:05:47 to read it, let's close it out versus 41 through 46. Now, while the Pharisees were gathered together,

1:05:53 Jesus asked them a question, what do you think about the Christ? What do you think about the Christ?

1:05:58 Whose son is he? They said to him, the son of David, he said to them, then how does David in the

1:06:03 spirit call him Lord saying, Oh, I'm gonna scroll down. The Lord said to my Lord, the Lord said to

1:06:14 my Lord, sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet. Therefore, if David calls

1:06:19 him Lord, how is he his son? No one was able to offer him a word and answer. Nor did anyone dare

1:06:26 from that day on ask him any more questions. I love that. I love that at the very end,

1:06:31 as it's just like we have tried every smart person we know we've teamed up with our enemy.

1:06:36 The enemy in my enemy is my friend. Like we've done all this stuff and we just keep swinging

1:06:41 and missing. And again, guys, we're looking at like this is like Tuesday of passion week.

1:06:45 So I mean, we're in the final stages here. And so again, if you're reading through the Bible or

1:06:49 maybe you're just popping in and out, you may be thinking to themselves, Oh, there's a lot of time

1:06:52 between now and the crucifixion. No, like we're, we can smell the crucifixion from here. Right.

1:06:58 I mean, we're right there. And so the Pharisees and Sadducees and all of their little offshoots,

1:07:03 they've gotten to this point and they've tried everything they could do to trick him. And now,

1:07:09 they're going to go beyond tricks. It's like, we're not going to do tricks anymore. We're going to

1:07:14 connive, like we're going to create this scenario where we're going to get the supportive Rome

1:07:20 so that we can take this guy out because we were trying to take him out, you know, the, the, you

1:07:24 know, we're trying to take the back way and, you know, try to get him to, you know, step on his own,

1:07:28 you know what, and you shoot himself in the foot, and we just haven't gotten there. But one thing I

1:07:33 did want to point about about verse 45 before we get closing thoughts from you guys is if then

1:07:38 David calls him Lord, how is he his son? And this is Jesus again, declaring his deity,

1:07:45 because you will find Muslims that will pull out pieces of the New Testament and they make the claim

1:07:52 that Jesus never claimed to be God, that nowhere even in our New Testament do we see that Jesus

1:07:57 explicitly claimed to be God. But you see throughout scripture, him saying things like this,

1:08:04 putting himself in the same exact category of God. And so to people that say that have bought

1:08:10 the lie that Jesus never claimed deity, this just goes directly in countervention to that.

1:08:16 Which do you think you know, you get to that last, you know, from that day on,

1:08:20 no, they didn't ask him, they didn't dare ask him another question was because that one was like

1:08:25 the one that crossed the line in their mind. Like he actually just called himself God.

1:08:30 I think at this point, they had, he had said so many things like this, I think this would have

1:08:34 just been a repeat of the same sentiment. I think at this point, if I were to guess they were so

1:08:39 exasperated, and they had, they had basically tried everything. They tried every way that they knew how

1:08:46 to trick him and trap him to where they could either put him up for blasphemy or treason,

1:08:50 directly to where the mob wouldn't take them out along with Jesus, you know, them taking out Jesus,

1:08:56 and they just had exhausted all options at that point. Any other thoughts on this before we wrap up?

1:09:03 No, just always that it was a group, you know, if it's, if it's one Pharisee that he's conflicting

1:09:08 with, you know, and that Jesus is just a better debate or whatever, but it's always, it's the group

1:09:12 and the group got bigger over time. And Jesus still, man, he just still whipped him. They either had

1:09:18 to call him. I think when he puts it this way, they either have to say he's blaspheming and saying

1:09:23 he's God, but they don't want to say that he's saying he's God. So they want to walk away from it.

1:09:28 And they, they also witnessed him coming in on the donkey. Yeah. And how everybody treated him,

1:09:35 and they're thinking we've got to be careful so that we don't lose our top knots at the same time.

1:09:39 So guys, I think we have set a new forging table record. I think this is one of, if not the longest

1:09:45 episode that we've done, we should talk about our weddings and all kinds of things and get into

1:09:48 fights all the time. This is lots of fun. Did you guys fight? We just had to feel we have fun.

1:09:52 If y'all, if y'all thought we're going to leave here, like hating each other, you got another thing

1:09:56 coming, but they might hate me after. Oh, no. I ruined heaven for him. Love you. No,

1:10:02 there's you won't see your wife there. Oh, no, I hate you again. Well, she'll be there. You just

1:10:08 won't know it. Okay. I can sense things heating back up. You guys cool it, cool down. We're going

1:10:15 to leave it there. But guys, come back here next Sunday where we are going to dig into Matthew 23.

1:10:19 So if you are behind, get caught up and read through Matthew 23. And before we let you

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