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This is Undaunted Life Man's Podcast.
0:53
I'm your host Kyle Thompson.
0:55
Let's get into it.
0:57
Welcome back to The Forging Table.
0:58
The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with content that
1:01
forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience.
1:05
At The Forging Table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience
1:08
by digging into God's Word, and we're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with
1:11
us.
1:12
That's Zach.
1:13
That's Winkler.
1:14
That's Caleb.
1:15
But I got a bone to pick with you guys.
1:16
I'm not terribly satisfied with you guys.
1:19
There's something that happened when I started feeding the Forging Tableers.
1:25
There's all these weird things that come out in everyone's personality.
1:27
Ryan Horn the Horn.
1:29
The first time I threw out three options of restaurants to do for lunch, he suggested
1:37
a fourth one.
1:39
He picked a restaurant that wasn't on the list.
1:40
That was his first strike.
1:42
Second strike was he then proceeded to pick something that wasn't on the menu for the
1:47
restaurant that everyone decided on.
1:49
Two strikes and one at bat somehow.
1:52
Two strikeouts and one at bat somehow.
1:53
Sounds like something he would do.
1:54
That sounds like something obviously he would do.
1:56
But then this time, I threw it out to you guys like, "Hey guys, here's three options
2:00
for lunch.
2:01
Give me your feedback on this and we'll just kind of go from there."
2:05
So this is what I sent to you guys.
2:07
I said, "Here are your three options in no particular order.
2:12
Cudoba, Jimmy John's, Papa John's."
2:14
So we've got different categories, right?
2:16
We've got different things that we can do, you know, we're kind of meeting everybody
2:19
where they're at.
2:20
So Jake, Winkler, you were the very first.
2:22
You just said, "Jimmy John's."
2:23
You said, "Hey, this is what I want to do."
2:25
Now Caleb, you respond and say, "Jimmy John's, number one, Cudoba number two, Papa John's
2:31
number seven."
2:32
Now for those of you out there that struggle with math, I gave three options and he somehow
2:36
ranked something seventh, okay?
2:38
So I knew we were off to a bad start.
2:41
And then Zach, you said Cudoba one, Jimmy John's two, and then you made the category
2:45
of pizza third.
2:48
You didn't even say the name Papa John's.
2:50
It was as if you couldn't say it.
2:52
And then Jake, you decided to get it on the rank order in game.
2:54
You go, "Jimmy John's one, Cudoba two, Papa John's three."
2:57
So very first thing.
2:58
I'm a CPA, you know.
2:59
You can follow math.
3:00
I understand that.
3:01
And you can follow instructions.
3:04
What is y'all's problem with Papa John's?
3:08
And I guess Zach with the category of pizza, and I guess Caleb, what would you put it
3:13
third, fourth, fifth, and sixth before Papa John's since you made your own ranking system?
3:18
What is the problem?
3:19
I mean, Chick-fil-A, Kava.
3:21
What day is today?
3:23
Sunday.
3:24
So Chick-fil-A is off.
3:25
Kava, what is that?
3:26
I don't even know what that is.
3:27
Oh, it's delicious.
3:28
What is it?
3:29
It's like salads.
3:30
No, it's like--
3:31
Yes.
3:32
It's basically like--
3:33
Yes.
3:34
Chipotle.
3:35
So it's like salads.
3:36
It's like it's chipotle.
3:37
But with an interesting accent.
3:38
Oh, well, it can't be, depending on people and what they put in the bowl.
3:40
But like I would--
3:41
We've never had a salad at Chipotle.
3:42
Where's the Jimmy John's hate coming from?
3:43
Or not Jimmy John's Papa John's hate?
3:44
Where's it coming from?
3:45
Domino's.
3:46
This is better.
3:48
Pizza Hut's better.
3:49
Oh, false.
3:50
For sure.
3:51
Okay, wait, wait, wait.
3:52
All right.
3:53
Stop.
3:54
Hold on.
3:55
You have to trust the fattest guy in the room.
3:56
That's me.
3:57
Okay.
3:58
So give it to us.
3:59
Which one?
4:00
Okay.
4:01
Everyone's going to have to answer this.
4:02
We need the preeminent.
4:04
You can only order from one national pizza chain, right?
4:07
So not your little one that's in the corner of your community where you know the guy that
4:10
makes a pizza.
4:11
No, no, no.
4:12
If you go to a random city and you're filling pizza and you're ordering stuff to your hotel
4:16
room, what's your go to on order in pizza?
4:20
Marcos.
4:21
Is that a national chain?
4:23
Yeah.
4:24
Yeah, they're national and Papa John's would be behind them.
4:26
Okay.
4:27
So Marcos and Papa John's.
4:28
What about you two?
4:29
Domino's.
4:30
Domino's number one.
4:32
Domino's is typically the number one that I hear problems with where they're just like
4:36
domino's is so gross and like I've had some bad domino's experiences before, but okay,
4:40
we got Domino's Marcos.
4:42
Chipotle.
4:43
Chipotle.
4:44
He's still getting followed by this is what I deal with.
4:51
If you wonder what I deal with before we start recording this, it's this bigoted nonsense.
4:55
You understand the assignment when I'm forced to eat pizza at Domino's when you're forced
4:59
to eat pizza.
5:00
Do you not like pizza?
5:02
It's not it doesn't agree well with me.
5:05
Okay, I guess for me, if I'm doing one doesn't process the only one that I like well, the one
5:11
that I hit the most often that I get the most crap for is pizza.
5:14
I love pizza.
5:15
I get thin crust, Canadian bacon, thin and crispy like Taylor's business.
5:20
There's others.
5:21
I just don't understand you guys.
5:22
I just like I and I tried to do something nice for you guys.
5:25
And then here you go.
5:26
If you're wondering, we choose Jimmy John's I go and I put the order in I get all the
5:30
way to the end.
5:31
I'm ready to pay.
5:32
And then they're like, Oh, this is outside of our delivery area, which would have been
5:35
a great thing to tell me in the app that already has my address booked into it.
5:39
So then the next options I gave you were five guys, Qdoba and Buffalo wild wings.
5:44
And then y'all couldn't help me out even here.
5:46
Caleb, you go Qdoba five guys, Buffalo wild wings, Jake, you go five five guys, Buffalo
5:51
wild wings, Qdoba.
5:52
And then Zach doesn't even respond.
5:53
And so at this point, I'm like screw you guys.
5:55
I should just give you tofu and cardboard, which tofu is cardboard, but I broke the tie
6:00
in hat.
6:01
We had five guys, which we actually just got done eating.
6:03
And it works.
6:04
So is everybody.
6:05
Zach is satisfied.
6:06
How is it?
6:07
Is it agreeing with you?
6:08
It's so far.
6:09
Yeah.
6:10
I think what you've learned here probably is don't ask, just decide.
6:13
Just a science.
6:14
And you will link.
6:15
Yeah.
6:16
Just say, Hey, deal with it.
6:17
We are eating.
6:18
We are eating the following thing today.
6:19
Oh, okay.
6:20
So I will go with that.
6:21
I will totally turn this into a communist takeover like totalitarian show, man.
6:26
But the problem is is every time the horn is in that group text, you know, and I'm just
6:30
going to tell him I'm going to send the text to the two other people and say, Ryan, bring
6:35
your own food.
6:36
Okay.
6:37
Because if you're going to cause this many problem, yeah, seriously, I don't care if
6:40
you eat your, you know, ruffles right there into the microphone, I'm at least not going
6:43
to have to deal with it.
6:44
But that doesn't have anything to do with the transfiguration, which is how we're going
6:47
to kick off our discussion in Matthew 17 today.
6:51
So guys, open up your Bibles, get ready.
6:52
We're digging in to Matthew 17.
6:54
So Zach, how about you lead us off read Matthew 17 versus one through 13.
7:02
And after six days, Jesus took with him Peter and James and John, his brother and led them
7:06
up a high mountain by themselves.
7:08
And he was transfigured before them and his face shone like the sun and his clothes became
7:13
white as light and behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah talking with him.
7:19
And Peter said to Jesus, Lord, it is good that we are here.
7:22
If you wish, I will make three tents here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah.
7:27
He was still speaking when behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them in a voice from the
7:32
cloud said, this is my beloved son, with whom I am well pleased, listened to him.
7:39
When the disciples heard this, they fell on their faces and were terrified, but Jesus
7:43
came and touched them saying rise and have no fear.
7:47
And when they lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only.
7:51
And as they were coming down the mountain, Jesus commanded them, tell no one the vision
7:56
until the son of man is raised from the dead.
7:58
And the disciples asked him, then why do the scribes say that the first Elijah must come?
8:03
Say that first Elijah must come.
8:05
He answered, Elijah does come and he will restore all things.
8:09
But I tell you that Elijah has already come and they did not recognize him, but did to
8:13
him whatever they pleased.
8:14
So also the son of man will certainly suffer at their hands.
8:18
Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them of John the Baptist.
8:23
So it's an interesting story.
8:25
It's something that I don't know that I've ever seen depicted in like a movie or any type
8:30
of show about Jesus's life.
8:31
I remember Dallas Jenkins, the creator of the chosen got dragged a few months ago because
8:36
he was, you know, asking people for stuff from the gospels that they wanted to see the chosen
8:41
do.
8:42
And a lot of people said the transfiguration and Dallas was confused why that was so important
8:46
to people to see the transfiguration.
8:49
And you know, people were like, oh, you know, Dallas is the devil and don't watch the chosen
8:53
because he doesn't understand why people like what they like.
8:55
So I don't really know what that's about.
8:57
But this is kind of a hard thing to to reason through and think about like, what does it
9:02
look like?
9:03
I just love that Peter just keeps his dumb stuff going.
9:05
He's like, this is awesome.
9:06
Can we stay here?
9:07
I'll build tents.
9:08
And it's just like, okay, Peter, we go camp.
9:11
Yeah.
9:12
We appreciate it.
9:13
Can we get with you?
9:14
Hey, all you guys have transfigured into kind of pseudo human beings.
9:17
Let me give you this actual like dwelling that I made for you.
9:20
But it's kind of a confusing thing to even talk about.
9:24
And if I'm being honest, I don't even know where to start the discussion here.
9:27
But the obviously when you're talking about Moses and Elijah, there's the law in the prophets.
9:32
So Moses represents the law, Elijah represents the prophets.
9:36
And there is a rebuke in here that Peter kind of made an error here when he put Jesus
9:42
on the same plane as Moses and Elijah.
9:46
And it's hard to know whether Peter did that because he was ignorant or whether Peter did
9:50
that because he actually thought that they were all equal, but he did receive rebuke
9:54
there.
9:55
But I'm just going to open it up for for any of you guys to talk about the transfiguration
9:58
because I didn't grow up in a church that I didn't grow up in church at all.
10:01
But even the church I first started going to, I don't know that we ever even talked about
10:04
this because it's kind of hard to be like, and because of the transfiguration, here's
10:08
how you should deal with your finances.
10:10
You know, it's kind of hard to draw that connection.
10:12
I mean, the first thing that that I read on this was, I think it was weird to be as well
10:18
that said that, and I don't, I don't remember if he actually had the Greek word in here,
10:21
but he said the Greek word is translated to metamorphosis, which means a change from
10:26
the inside out.
10:27
And the example uses like a caterpillar.
10:30
So it's like, not like, you know, you kind of think about when, you know, you see the
10:35
Lord in his glory, it's almost like the sun shining behind him, you know, but it's more
10:39
like the sun is shining from within him, right, which, I mean, I don't know, you know, what
10:46
do you want to say about that as well, but I just, just that picture is incredible.
10:52
And then, I mean, obviously you got to love Peter for being like, Hey, that was cool.
10:55
Here's what I'm going to do.
10:57
Right.
10:58
Let's set up our own Barnum and Bailey circus.
11:00
I got this.
11:01
That was a thing.
11:02
No, I mean, I wrote down what Jesus was within is now made visible without.
11:05
I mean, it's, you know, he's always been this.
11:10
He's always been God on earth.
11:12
But now he's actually showing that showing it to the disciples.
11:18
So it's a much more tangible, you know, and kind of going back to the last episode, the
11:24
idea like, you know, what do you need to see?
11:27
What do you need to see for you to believe?
11:30
And it's like, this is something where it's like, okay, obviously the disciples were they
11:35
believed, but this was like smack you in the face like, it's me, I am that I am.
11:44
And so I do think it's, you know, how fortunate I would actually say the disciples, you know,
11:51
Peter, I mean, how fortunate they were to actually see this and witness this because if
11:58
there was ever any doubt, it erased all of it.
12:02
I keep trying to figure out what, what could it have looked like because like, let me put
12:08
on my Dallas Jenkins shoes, like, how do you show that?
12:12
Because I was so pumped because I knew the end of the third season that they were going
12:15
to end with Jesus walking on water, and it's like, how in the world are they going to depict
12:20
this?
12:21
And I thought that they nailed it personally.
12:22
I thought that it was, it was incredibly dramatic.
12:25
It was traumatic for the people filming it because like it was, it was kind of sketchy when
12:30
you watch some of the behind the scenes stuff, like it was very difficult what they were
12:33
doing.
12:34
And every time I have seen Jesus walking on water depicted, it was always kind of serene
12:39
and Jesus is just kind of easily walking on top of it.
12:42
And it's like he's subduing with each step.
12:44
But the chosen showed it like, no, he's walking on uneven water, right?
12:48
And so he's stepping up and the stepping down and he's, he's on top of the water, but he's
12:52
still having to like keep his balance and those types of things.
12:55
And so I just don't know what would be pleasing for me to see this because I mean, you guys
12:59
have all read novels that have been turned into books and then you're either disappointed
13:03
or excited with the rendition that that's given to you.
13:06
But it's like, you know, what would have made you more satisfied?
13:09
Like what could they have shown and in what way to made it better?
13:13
Did you see the Christmas episode they did?
13:14
Yeah.
13:15
That was like a combination of a bunch of clips from the show that they turned into a Christmas
13:19
special thing.
13:20
Yeah.
13:21
And there was a part of it where they, I think it was an angel that had appeared as the three
13:25
wise men were walking in belief, that's right, but effectively it was just overwhelming light
13:29
and you see them cowering.
13:32
For me, I think that's almost, you know, just as potent as anything else, I would rather
13:36
leave it to the imagination.
13:37
I don't think you'll do any justice or something like this, but, you know, I think the way
13:41
I think about it is obviously all the things you guys mentioned, but also just thinking
13:47
about where we're headed, you know, eventually and just kind of a taste of what it might
13:52
be like to see that and then also you've got the promise of having glorified body yourself.
13:57
And the fact that you've got, you know, Moses and Elijah there with him having this conversation.
14:03
It's one of the few times in the Bible where we kind of get a peek behind the curtain of
14:05
some things that are happening and they were clearly recognizable by the, by the mortals
14:12
or the, excuse me, the humans that were standing next to him.
14:15
So I don't know.
14:16
I thought it was really interesting.
14:17
The other thing was just like what Wiersby said here is the transfiguration was God's
14:21
way of teaching Peter that Jesus is glorified when we deny ourselves, take up our cross
14:26
and follow him.
14:28
So rather than the world's philosophy of save yourself, the Christian philosophy is a yield
14:32
yourself to God.
14:33
Well, and I think the other at this point, I mean, God reveals himself on earth as Jesus.
14:43
At this point, you have to reexamine all of your worldview, all of it.
14:50
You can't just go, well, like, you know, there's no more religious pluralism like, well, there's
14:55
many paths to get to heaven.
14:57
You know, there's many things that you can do to be peace in God.
14:59
I can be kind and make it to heaven.
15:01
No, Jesus told you how to make it and he literally revealed himself to be God on earth.
15:06
Like that's him or the scientific materialism, like as an explanation to life and reality
15:12
apart from God, it's like, well, we just kind of, you know, grew out of nothing.
15:15
No, no, no, no, God's here.
15:18
He showed himself, he's telling you, this is who I was, and then he wrote all this other
15:21
stuff.
15:22
And Jesus has been quoting the Old Testament about this over and over and over again.
15:28
Do you think he just is ignoring what happened in Genesis and how the, how the world was
15:32
created or the, I think this was one that there was one that seemed no Marxist dialectal
15:41
or historical materialism that accounts for the progress of history through clash struggle.
15:46
And there's no social objectivism that elevates the individual whose egoism and genius prevail
15:50
over altruism, social conformism and sacrifice for others.
15:55
It's a complete reexamination.
15:56
You cannot, it's like, there's, there's so many extremes here at work and so many different
16:01
viewpoints.
16:02
And I'm over here going, as I'm reading this, I'm going, well, if Jesus, like, if you believe
16:07
who Jesus is, who he says he is, and then he reveals himself to the disciples that that
16:11
is who he is, why are we deviating from what you said?
16:16
Yeah.
16:17
That's, that's one thing I've engaged with is, you know, once you get to that fact that
16:23
Christ was who he said he was, and everything that's written here, whether you agree with
16:28
it or not is truth.
16:29
That's it.
16:30
Period.
16:31
And that can be a hard thing to do, especially in today's world.
16:34
It's, you know, counterculture rule and all that, but that's, that's what we had to deal
16:37
with.
16:38
And it can be hard, especially when you're talking about things like homosexuality and
16:40
all that stuff, you know, we just kind of have to deal with it.
16:43
Absolutely.
16:44
Well, let's go to the next section here.
16:45
Winkler, if you can hit verse 14 and read through verse 20, and I think I mentioned last
16:50
week of the week before, I alluded to verse 21 or 22 missing.
16:55
That's actually in this chapter.
16:56
We don't have to get into, to why some of those transcripts are missing verse 21, but
17:00
like in the ESV, it goes 14 through 20 and then skips right to 22, but it's because 21
17:05
wasn't in a lot of the most reliable transcripts, blah, blah, not a huge deal.
17:08
14 through 20, please.
17:10
And when they came to the crowd, a man came up to him and kneeling before him said, Lord,
17:14
have mercy on my son, for he has seizures and he suffers terribly, for often he falls
17:19
into the fire and often into the water.
17:21
I brought him to your disciples and they could not heal him.
17:25
And Jesus answered, O faithless and twisted generation, how long am I to be with you?
17:30
How long am I to bear you, bringing him here to me?
17:34
And Jesus rebuked the demon and it came out of him and the boy was healed instantly.
17:38
Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, why could we not cast it out?
17:43
He said to them, because of your little faith, for truly I say to you, if you have faith
17:49
like a grain of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, move from here to there and
17:54
it will move and nothing will be impossible for you.
17:58
So obviously, I know we keep beating the strum, but I think we should continue to beat the
18:01
strum.
18:02
If you read the gospel accounts with no personality, Jesus will seem as if he has no personality.
18:08
Again, shout out to a beautiful outlaw by John Eldridge.
18:12
That's a book where he basically broke down different stories from the gospels and brought
18:16
out different personality traits of Jesus.
18:19
It was the first time I started reading the gospel with personality, with a little bit
18:23
of, you know, vigor, with a little bit of energy.
18:26
And we get that here because again, just just imagine reading it.
18:29
I know we've done this in previous weeks, but just imagine reading this, O faithless and
18:33
twisted generation, how long am I to be with you?
18:36
How long am I to bear with you bring him here to me?
18:39
Do you honestly think that's how he said this?
18:42
Within this context, which again, text without context is just text within this context.
18:47
This is exasperation period.
18:50
This is all the way up to righteous anger, like dummies.
18:54
How many times have you seen me do this?
18:57
Like how many times do I have to explain it to you in parable or in clear words that this
19:02
is what's happening and how many times you do I have to tell you exactly what you need
19:05
to do.
19:06
And then you keep doing this.
19:08
Like Jesus is literally like through in this situation, we have a father and a son, you
19:13
know, with, with your kid that has a demon, but Jesus is like parenting all these little
19:17
idiot apostles to where it's just like, dude, God, like pick up the threat at some point.
19:24
That's right.
19:25
Kyle, I agree with you.
19:26
That's a great job.
19:27
Man, you totally sum that up right there.
19:29
I have nothing else to add.
19:30
Now that would have been a great thing to hear right after that as opposed to radio silence,
19:33
which is dead air, it's just my favorite, do you have anything to add to that?
19:38
There's your transition set up.
19:39
That's what I was going to ask.
19:40
But you pretty much answered my question is just that like, who all is he talking to
19:45
there?
19:46
You know, is it just is it just the disciples?
19:48
Y'all's opinion?
19:49
No, no, it's anyone that's in your shop, everybody at that point.
19:53
Yeah.
19:54
I will, I will add the mustard seed discussion here that he's talking about.
19:58
I love, I mean, I was when I was reading this, I was like, okay, let me, I want to dig in
20:05
on this a little bit because I've never quite understood what exactly are you saying here?
20:11
And what he's saying, I mean, in the way I was reading it is his, the quantity of your
20:19
faith is less important than the effectiveness of it.
20:24
And I'll clarify.
20:25
I think every guy sitting at this table spends a lot of time in the word.
20:30
We believe, we pray, we, you know, try and walk a path with Christ as much as we possibly
20:38
can.
20:39
And I would imagine that we may ask God for some things, but we are not true.
20:44
I mean, when you pray, are you truly asking him or you kind of just going like, how much
20:49
do we go through the motions and it's like, am I a faithful person?
20:53
Yeah, I do a lot of things.
20:54
I go to church every Sunday and I do all these things, but I don't know that like how effective
20:59
is it?
21:00
And then I start looking at someone who maybe is recovering from addiction and is battling
21:05
this enormous demon.
21:07
And they say like, they know there's only one place for them to turn in desperation.
21:13
And it's like, I can't go through recovery without Christ.
21:17
You see like the people who are in prison who it's like their, their faith is maybe this
21:23
big when they first come in, but they know there's only one choice that they have for
21:28
redemption.
21:29
And that's Jesus.
21:30
And so to me, whenever I hear this, I'm going, yeah, there's a reason that those prayers
21:34
of please get me away from this addiction work.
21:39
And there's a reason that maybe some of our prayers don't and go ahead, Zach, so a couple
21:47
of things, one would be, I struggle with that a little bit, in one sense, it's like, you
21:54
want to be thankful for everything that you're given when you compare yourself to somebody
21:58
in those circumstances at the same time, probably more is expected.
22:02
So you have to take what you've got and run with it and do as much as you can.
22:07
I read a couple of commentaries and one just said that these guys may have been jealous
22:11
of the fact that they didn't get to go up the mountain and not necessarily, they could
22:15
have been neglecting prayer and other things.
22:17
And so when this emergency pops up, like Samson, their strength was gone because they weren't
22:21
in the word.
22:23
I thought that was pretty interesting.
22:25
This is just a side comment.
22:26
And I thought about this a couple of times since you've mentioned it.
22:29
That book that you're talking about, I read about half of it and I kind of stopped because
22:34
I wasn't sure how I felt about Eldridge assigning so many of his thoughts potentially to Jesus
22:43
in that perspective.
22:44
I remember specifically the one about a bird hitting a window and then the family laughing
22:49
because it was all timely and all this and that very well could be.
22:52
But at a certain point, it's like, I want to think, think really clearly about what am
22:56
I assigning to Christ that may not have existed.
22:58
So I don't know what your thoughts are on that.
22:59
Yeah, specifically my thoughts is, so here I am speaking for John Eldridge.
23:04
He's not giving me authority to do that.
23:05
So here we go, three, two, one.
23:08
I don't think his point is to say, this is how I know Jesus reacted.
23:13
It's more so this is a way he could have reacted.
23:16
And so this is like a depiction of what we see in scripture.
23:20
And so I think he knows what the default mechanism is for most people when they're reading scripture
23:24
and it's black and white, no personality.
23:27
And so he's infusing some of that thought pattern into the text without transforming what the
23:34
text is trying to communicate.
23:36
And so where I would say a book like that could go completely off the rails is if he
23:40
started assigning personality, motive and direction to a particular text, which again,
23:48
I haven't read in a few years, but I didn't get that at all.
23:51
There were some places where I was like, yeah, I don't know that that wouldn't really make
23:54
sense for those people to react that way.
23:57
But could they have?
23:58
Yes, it's completely plausible that they would have reacted in that way.
24:01
So that's how I would treat a book like that.
24:03
If you treat that book as scripture, like as the gospel on the gospel, that's dangerous,
24:11
but I don't think that was his point, kind of like they're chosen.
24:14
Exactly like the chosen or the passion of the Christ or any of those types of things.
24:17
It's like, this is a depiction of how we think this would look like what we can get past,
24:22
you know, the ratings agencies that, you know, are going to put a rating on this thing or
24:25
that are going to put it on their streaming platform.
24:28
It's that exact type of scenario.
24:30
And so it's those people that get so up in arms at the passion of the Christ or the
24:34
chosen like, you're not supposed to do this and you don't know what kind of conversations
24:38
they had.
24:39
And that wasn't that exact word was not in the Bible.
24:42
We don't know that they said that it's, but they're not changing core elements of what
24:46
the message was.
24:48
Right.
24:49
Okay.
24:50
It, you know, they're still going to in this season, they're going to bring Lazarus out
24:52
out of the tomb.
24:53
They're going to bring him out, right?
24:56
But they're not bringing Larry and Lazarus like they're bringing Lazarus out.
24:59
So if they fundamentally change, so people that are like wary of the chosen and aren't
25:03
Mormons given money to this thing and hold that, yes, if in the season where Jesus dies,
25:08
if he goes and gets his own planet with a bunch of other people or whatever, like Mormons
25:12
believe, yes, I'm with you, but it's only if they change the fundamental direction of
25:16
the message that I have concerns.
25:18
I'm not, I'm not concerned at all with them giving personality to the character or the
25:22
person from history.
25:23
Rather.
25:24
No, I appreciate that.
25:25
Some of it's really compelling.
25:26
I remember the one where he's talking about Jesus is sitting there and he started the fire
25:28
and started cooking the fish and in the beginning, he wasn't really recognizable and that he
25:33
may have been kind of messing with him and all that, but you know, that's a really compelling
25:38
picture of him sitting there waiting patiently for you to come and have a meal that's been
25:42
prepared in a very personal and intimate way.
25:45
So yeah, thanks for answering that.
25:47
That's how Dallas Jenkins has described it too in all those interviews.
25:50
You know, it's like, is it plausible?
25:52
Is it in keeping with everything we know about scripture?
25:54
So I mean, there is, I know you've heard from a lot of them, Kyle, but there is a lot of
25:58
people to get all worked up about stuff that small.
26:01
Well, that and that's fine and I'm okay with people expressing their preferences, but it's
26:05
these people that make these big, broad statements like the chosen is bad because it's not scriptural.
26:11
It's like, okay, are you the person that ruins again, what mentioned, you know, a novel that's
26:17
been turned into a movie?
26:19
Well, that didn't happen in the book.
26:21
Well, who who is saying that it has to be like, why did you expect them to do a page by page
26:27
like depiction of exactly what we see in scripture?
26:30
That you don't read Matthew as a narrative, really, like some of these stories go from
26:35
here to there and it doesn't really make sure why.
26:37
And guess what?
26:38
No one's going to watch that.
26:39
And I think what Dallas and the rest of the team of the chosen is trying to do is they're
26:42
trying to put the gospel out there for people to put their faith in and accept.
26:46
And so far, the re seasons in, I don't think there's anything that I see in the chosen
26:49
that would point someone to a false gospel.
26:52
I'd be way more worried about the church that they're going to with the pastor that is giving
26:55
them a false version of the gospel where, hey, raise your hand at the end of the concert
26:59
TED talk combo.
27:01
And then you're going to be saved and good to go without repentance or heart change.
27:04
Like that's what I'm more concerned about.
27:05
I'm not concerned about how things are depicted on camera.
27:08
Just don't bother me at all.
27:09
Yeah.
27:10
All right.
27:11
Let's hit this next section here.
27:12
Who read?
27:13
Okay.
27:14
Caleb, you're in.
27:15
So we're going to do verses 14 through.
27:16
Nope.
27:17
We just did that.
27:18
Didn't we?
27:19
All right.
27:20
Just do a 22.
27:22
You get to read two verses.
27:23
Okay.
27:24
From that little bitty Bible.
27:25
And hit it.
27:26
Okay.
27:27
Can make that work.
27:28
All right.
27:29
And while they were and while they were gathering together in Galilee, Jesus said to them, the
27:32
son of man is going to be delivered into the hands of men and they will kill him and he
27:36
will be raised on the third day and they were deeply grieved.
27:40
Deeply grieved.
27:41
That's what then as be says, ESV says greatly distressed.
27:44
So this does not mean they heard it and were confused.
27:47
The disciples apostles did a lot of that.
27:49
They heard something like huh, they, you know, it wasn't like a parable where they had no
27:52
idea what Jesus was getting at.
27:54
They knew exactly what he meant.
27:56
It was communicated clearly and they were greatly distressed guys think about the last
28:01
time that you were greatly distressed, not mildly peeved, but greatly distressed.
28:08
The thing that doesn't make sense to me with this guys was and yet they weren't looking
28:15
for Jesus to raise from the dead.
28:18
So Jesus says the son of man is about to be delivered into the hands of men.
28:22
I don't think that they believe that, but somehow they were greatly distressed by that
28:26
message and they will kill him.
28:28
I don't think they believe that, but somehow they were distressed by the message and he
28:32
will be raised on the third day.
28:35
You can pretty much tell they didn't hear that part because they were greatly distressed.
28:39
And so when Jesus was delivered and killed, they weren't looking for him.
28:44
I don't get it.
28:45
Make it make sense.
28:46
Right.
28:47
I mean, it, well, in one way, you think about just going back to even the transfiguration,
28:52
you look at what, what did God say?
28:54
This is my son who I'm well pleased.
28:58
And then he ends it with listen to him and they still don't over and over again.
29:06
It's, you know, even going back to the bread, you know, the, the loaves when they're feeding
29:13
the Gentiles.
29:14
It's like, we've done this before.
29:15
We've been through here and you're still worried about do we have bread and it's like,
29:21
we didn't have enough bread last time and the Lord provided.
29:26
There's, I think it's more of a, they're distressed because they're still not listening.
29:33
It's like how many times do we need to get hit over the head by, you know, by in our
29:40
daily life?
29:41
How many times do we have to get hit over our head before we start listening and doing
29:45
what he says and then understanding that yes, like we are not going to go through life without
29:51
any sort of complications or hardships as a result of walking with Christ.
29:55
That's not going to happen.
29:57
It is going to, you are going to experience those things, but at the same time, when you
30:01
experience those things, if you are truly walking with Christ, you will not be distressed in
30:05
those moments.
30:06
You will actually take great joy in it.
30:08
I think also you're, I mean, if you, if we put ourselves in their shoes, right, they've
30:13
been part of his ministry for what two years now, some of them, you know, two and a half
30:18
years and they're, they're thinking of themselves.
30:22
I mean, they're like, I've, I've given my life to this, like, I'm seeing the most amazing
30:27
things I've ever seen, you know, I'm walking with Jesus and he's about to get taken away
30:31
from me.
30:32
So this, they're not, I mean, like you said, they're not hearing the last part of that
30:37
for sure, but they're also just thinking about, what am I going to do after that?
30:41
That's from my mind went.
30:42
I mean, if you really like, that's one thing that chosen does well and some of these other
30:44
commentaries puts you in, in, in that place, they're dealing with difficult life threatening
30:51
situations, in many cases, and this is the leader, right?
30:54
From a human perspective, and as soon as he's gone, I mean, I'm trying to think what a modern
30:59
day person would be an example, you know, you're instantly in, in a lot of trouble, right?
31:06
So they don't want to believe it potentially in the midst of all of these overwhelming
31:10
improves, they still don't want to listen, and how does that apply to us today?
31:14
I think the modern equivalent would literally be, I mean, think about how people are reacting
31:18
to, you know, post elections, whenever your favorite candidate does not actually, you
31:24
know, we hear all these alarming, I mean, I remember my wife after Biden got elected,
31:29
I mean, she was just like distraught.
31:30
She's like, it's good.
31:32
This is going to happen.
31:33
This is going to happen.
31:34
And I said, it's probably not it's, you know, look, it's not going to be great.
31:39
There's going to be a lot of things that we don't like that are going to happen.
31:43
But you know, in two years, you probably won't be able to do a lot of this anymore, which
31:48
has been the case.
31:49
Right.
31:50
So it, I mean, your modern day equivalent of like, why, when do I get distressed?
31:53
It's like, well, I, you know, this, I think this person should lead us and not everybody
32:00
else did.
32:01
When I think it's because this is kind of a macabre example of something like this, but
32:05
I think about how high-minded, nuanced thinkers think about Hamas.
32:11
Yeah.
32:12
And you know what?
32:13
Hamas doesn't want to kill every Jew and every American on the planet.
32:16
They don't want to do that.
32:17
You know what they want?
32:18
They want better schools.
32:19
It's just in their charter.
32:20
They want better, they want better roads.
32:22
They want more economic and educational opportunities.
32:25
That's what they really want.
32:27
It's like, how about you take them at their word?
32:30
Yeah.
32:31
They want the destruction of not only the state of Israel, but every single Jew.
32:36
When people say from the river to the sea, the next questions I need, you need to ask
32:40
is which river and which sea, because they mean the Jordan and the Mediterranean.
32:44
What's in between that?
32:45
About 7 million Jews.
32:46
Yeah.
32:47
And they're not like, hey, we just want the land and y'all can stay here.
32:50
It's like, no, we want the land and we want your blood.
32:52
Okay.
32:53
Believe them.
32:54
In this particular scenario, Jesus is like, take me out my word.
32:58
And the disciples are like, no, I've got my own frame.
33:00
I got my own frame of reference.
33:03
I've got my own overton window and I'm just going to kind of put you in my accepted version
33:07
about what's happening.
33:08
And it's just, it's shocking that they get to the resurrection and none of them are expected.
33:13
Yeah.
33:14
We have nothing from scripture that gives us any indication that they were expected of
33:17
a resurrection, which again, points to the incredible nature of the reaction of the disciples
33:25
after the resurrection.
33:27
I was thinking before we started recording today.
33:29
I was like, what are the reasons why I believe, you know, in this whole thing?
33:35
And the main reason I believe is because of the resurrection and specifically because
33:40
of the first century church, because the first century church was full of people that saw
33:44
a resurrected Jesus.
33:46
They weren't just told about it because 2000 years ago, we didn't see with our own eyes.
33:50
We just believe it based on evidence or based on faith or based on both, whatever.
33:54
But that's, that's the difference of kind of where we're finding ourselves in this continuum
33:58
is, is, you know, where you find your faith and what you're putting it in.
34:02
And for me, it's, it's in the resurrection.
34:04
And it's like, because there wasn't one disciple that was like, guys, but remember what he said?
34:09
Remember he said this was going to happen.
34:11
Remember I'm talking about Joan all the time.
34:12
That's stupid dude in the dumb whale.
34:14
Yeah.
34:15
Like guys to hold up like just batting down the hatchets for 72 hours.
34:18
We're going to be squared away.
34:20
No one did it.
34:21
They weren't looking for it.
34:22
Let's wrap up Matthew 17 and we're going to have the CPA in front of us read about the
34:26
temple tax. So a Winkler, if you will go to 24 all the way through the end, which is 27.
34:32
You got it.
34:33
When they came to Capernaum, the collectors of the two jockman tax went up to Peter and
34:37
said, does your teacher not pay the tax?
34:40
He said, yes.
34:41
And when he came into the house, Jesus spoke to him first saying, what do you think, Simon?
34:46
From whom do kings of the earth take toll or tax from their sons or from others?
34:51
And when he said from others, Jesus said to him, then the sons are free.
34:55
However, not to give offense to them, go to the sea and cast a hook and take the first
35:00
fish that comes up.
35:02
And when you open its mouth, you will find a shekel.
35:06
Take that and give it to them for me and for yourself.
35:09
I would like to report that I've tried this.
35:12
Didn't work.
35:13
Okay.
35:14
So when you go bass fishing in a pond or something like that, I haven't done a lot of fishing
35:17
in my life.
35:19
Never found anything that a lot of times I don't even find my hook in their mouth or
35:22
the, you know, there's nothing there anymore, the minnow's gone, the worm's gone.
35:26
But the thing I really want to talk about here is Jesus could have stood on principle,
35:33
said, Hey guys, yeah, tax on all that.
35:35
I'm God though, like God in the bod.
35:38
So I don't need to do this.
35:41
This was like, this is not a hill to die on.
35:43
But hey, watch this, like, you know, I'm going to teach you a lesson while doing something
35:49
that I don't have to do.
35:51
And so I thought that that's just interesting, like he did it just to not be offensive and
35:54
just not to create ways because he didn't have to in a particular scenario.
35:58
I think this is one of those things we talk about.
36:00
Jesus is his personality that this would be really funny, you know, you know, that he's
36:05
like kind of leaning back and he's like, what do you think Simon?
36:07
Yeah.
36:08
What do you think I should put that in check?
36:11
Oh, he's like, he's behind your ear.
36:12
Nope.
36:13
Right.
36:14
It's in a fish.
36:15
He goes David Blaine on them.
36:16
Yeah.
36:17
You know, I mean, I really think this is, this is just funny.
36:20
But any, any puts it in a fish, right?
36:23
And one thing was interesting that I read was that this is the only miracle that involved
36:27
money that he performed to meet his own needs that used one fish.
36:33
And that does not have the results recorded.
36:36
Right.
36:37
Interesting.
36:38
Well, and another thing, they had other financial issues come up in the ministry.
36:43
Like, you know, with the feeding of the 5,000, like that was kind of a money.
36:47
It was a money and materials problem.
36:50
And so Jesus, you know, fixed the materials problem, but like he could have made a financial
36:54
thing like here, here's a Tesla and here's all this money.
36:59
You're going to buzz over to these other towns and you're going to buy food and then come
37:02
on back and then the poof, the Tesla Tesla will disappear for 2,000 years and then we'll
37:06
be all squared away.
37:07
But he didn't do that.
37:08
So yeah, that's interesting.
37:09
I hadn't thought about that before.
37:10
What do you mean by there's no re no results recorded?
37:12
Just in that he didn't say and then Peter went, cut the fish and behold, there was a
37:18
shackle and he paid.
37:19
I got you.
37:20
So we assume it happened.
37:21
Yeah.
37:22
Right.
37:23
Right.
37:24
Or maybe Jesus did that.
37:25
Just as a nice little funny joke for himself.
37:26
I don't know.
37:27
Maybe he was just like, I'm just kidding.
37:28
Here's a joke.
37:29
He's pulls it out of his pocket right here.
37:31
I had it the whole time.
37:32
I've been looking inside the fish mouth.
37:35
I'm like, I don't know.
37:36
For hours.
37:37
I can't find one.
37:38
Oh, that would be funny.
37:39
We're here to be takes another route on this too.
37:42
And he says, God gave Adam and Eve dominion over nature.
37:45
And this included the fish in the sea.
37:47
Human beings lost this dominion because of sin.
37:49
So Peter was not able to command the fish to give him the money Jesus Christ exercised
37:53
dominion over not only the fish, but also over the animals and the birds.
37:58
What Adam lost because of his disobedience Jesus Christ regained because of his obedience.
38:02
When I read that, I thought it was interesting.
38:05
I was thinking back through what CS Lewis would talk about, which is kind of if you find
38:09
in you things that can't be satisfied on this earth, you know, certain desires that
38:14
may mean that you're made for, you know, another place kind of a deal.
38:19
How many movies and depictions are there of these kind of supernatural interactions with
38:24
animals and all of that stuff that seemed to be prevalent in people's minds because
38:28
they're everywhere?
38:29
You know, this is saying, I guess at one point that there was at least some different type
38:33
of interaction between humans, I guess in creation.
38:39
I think so.
38:40
And next.
38:41
Right.
38:42
Doesn't it suck when you say something and you're like, surely someone else is going to respond
38:45
to that because it's a good point.
38:47
Doesn't it suck when there's dead air after you get done talking?
38:50
It's the most uncomfortable thing.
38:52
It makes me think of literally when politicians, they literally have a speechwriter write either
38:56
an applause line or a laugh line and they don't get it.
38:59
It's just it's the most Jeb Bush thing that could ever happen.
39:02
My mind was buffering.
39:03
I'm sorry.
39:04
Especially when we're talking about talking animals, right?
39:06
Yeah.
39:07
Right.
39:08
Right now.
39:09
But hey, we're we're going to go ahead and we're going to put a bow on Matthew 18 there
39:12
be or Matthew 17 because next week we're going to come into Matthew 18.
39:16
And there's a whole lot to discuss on 18.
39:18
So we'll cut off a little bit on this one and add it to the next episode.
39:21
So guys, make sure you are ready and read up through Matthew 18 for next week.
39:25
But before that you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost.
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So I'm going to go ahead and describe some of the stuff that's in the show notes.
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So I'll talk about it now.
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It's all here in the show notes.
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And also I've got a link to our donation page.
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So guys, if you're wondering how we can pull this off, how we have microphones in front
41:00
of us right now, how we're able to upload this to the to the internet and with electricity
41:05
and all this other stuff, it's because we can pay our bills and we can't pay our bills
41:08
with hopes and dreams.
41:09
We have to have cheddar.
41:10
And so guys, if you want to hop in and be a part of what we're doing here, one way to
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do that is to become a monthly donor.
41:15
We don't care.
41:16
It could be five bucks a month, 25 bucks a month, 100 bucks a month, whatever you can
41:19
spare in this time to help us to equipment to push back darkness, we would ask you to
41:22
do that.
41:23
So the link here is in the show notes.
41:26
Thank you guys so much for listening to this episode.
41:27
For ever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate and leave us a positive five
41:31
star review.
41:32
If you want to come speak alive at your event or on your podcast to shoot me an email to
41:35
info@undonton.life, that's I N F O at undonton.life.
41:40
Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else
41:43
including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way.
41:46
Just go to www dot undaunted dot life.
41:49
And also we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for our
41:53
content.
41:54
Click on this podcast as our song Perpetua, which is off their self titled debut album
41:58
on Face Down Records.
41:59
The links are in the description.
42:01
I'm your host Kyle Thompson.
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Remember keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental and physical resilience.
42:09
Keep seeking the lion of Judah.
42:24
(dramatic music)