THE FORGING TABLE | Genesis 32 (Ep. 763)

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0:57 Welcome back to The Forging Table.

1:13 The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with content that

1:16 forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience.

1:19 At The Forging Table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience

1:22 by digging into God's Word.

1:23 We're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with us.

1:25 It's Russell Eustis, that's Zach Todd, and that is Ryan Horne.

1:28 Now, here's the thing right from the beginning, Zach.

1:32 Every time you touch this timer, for those of you just listening to this, you don't get

1:34 to see the amazingness going on because the world's most simple.

1:39 Somehow you'll have turned this thing into a timer.

1:42 So I think you have to...

1:43 What do you mean, y'all?

1:44 All right.

1:45 No, no.

1:46 Oh, for failure.

1:47 No.

1:48 See.

1:49 Okay.

1:50 Wait.

1:51 We got to wind it back.

1:52 Oh.

1:53 All right.

1:54 It's zero.

1:55 It's total.

1:56 Were you in education?

1:57 So like K through like master's degree, like roughly like 20 years worth of education.

2:02 Something like that.

2:03 Yeah.

2:04 Then never once like timers and like small mechanical devices was not ever part of...

2:08 Notice how you had to like correct with all you told me was tap.

2:11 It's very difficult.

2:12 No, I told you just to...

2:13 You were in charge of the timers.

2:14 Actually, what I told you to do.

2:15 That's true statement.

2:16 And then all of a sudden it's...

2:18 As I'm doing my intro, I see blinking, which I've never seen before on this particular device

2:22 it's blinking, but guys, there's more important things that we have to get to today and it's

2:25 not just the Bible because I've been reliably informed because I know we're recording this

2:30 in the past guys.

2:31 So if you're watching this right now, this is several months, we record this a couple

2:34 of months ago, but Russell, you came into my house wearing a master's vest.

2:39 I couldn't help walk through church this morning and see a bunch of people wearing polo shirts

2:44 with a little cute little logo on there and their little golf flag and all that.

2:49 And right from the beginning, I guess this is bad timing because we're recording this

2:52 during master's Sunday and that's like apparently a thing.

2:55 People think like, so what do people do like on master's Sunday?

2:58 They literally just like watch other people play golf.

3:00 That's like a thing thing.

3:01 You eat pimento cheese sandwiches.

3:03 Okay.

3:04 Mint juleps.

3:05 And you watch...

3:06 Okay.

3:07 Watch them play golf.

3:08 Mint julep, I thought that was like Kentucky Derby thing.

3:09 I like to have a mint julep.

3:10 Okay, just use this randomly.

3:11 This is what I like to drink.

3:12 I was like, I've never had a mint julep at the master's.

3:15 I've only been...

3:16 I went to a practice round, but I didn't see mint juleps, but...

3:19 Do they just drink like a little hummus there?

3:21 Yeah.

3:22 And the usual, but pimento cheese sandwiches, everything at the master's like the food is

3:27 really cheap.

3:28 Pimento cheese sandwich for like $1.50, everything like that is super cheap.

3:32 Any of them merchandise they make up for it.

3:34 Okay.

3:35 I heard that's weird because they don't...

3:36 They have like almost no commercials or whatever.

3:38 So they make their money and they really don't make their money off of ticket sales either

3:41 because the tickets are what they cost and if people buy them secondary, they're like,

3:44 "Yeah, you know, it is what it is."

3:45 Right.

3:46 But they make up for it on like, it's like $80 million a year just on merch is what they

3:49 sell.

3:50 The merch tents are crazy.

3:52 You get to witness champions at the height of their game executing with perfection, one

3:57 of the greatest games ever invented on the face of this earth.

4:00 Do you watch other people play chess?

4:02 Because that's also a game.

4:03 I thought you were talking about the guys that make the pimento cheese sandwiches.

4:07 Those are perfection.

4:08 Those are pretty solid.

4:09 Yeah.

4:10 No doubt.

4:11 I mean, is there like checkers Saturday where you just watch guys, just get after it like

4:14 kidding me bro.

4:15 If I wasn't something really boring, I would have probably stayed up last night and watched

4:18 that fight.

4:19 So...

4:20 Who was fighting?

4:22 Oh, yeah.

4:23 Because the UFC's are normally on Fridays.

4:25 Right.

4:26 Yeah.

4:27 Doesn't even don't even have an idea.

4:28 If you're gonna talk trash about something you should at least know when it goes down.

4:29 You talk trash about the massive guy.

4:31 I knew the masters was going on because I at least have a colloquial understanding of

4:35 this golf tournament that people know.

4:36 You had no idea.

4:37 You know what I do know?

4:38 Yeah.

4:39 Y'all see me.

4:40 Look, that's close.

4:41 Rory McElroy is in the lead going in today and Bryson de Shambo is right on his heels.

4:46 How about that?

4:47 I don't even watch golf and I know that much.

4:48 He's a closet fan.

4:49 Right.

4:50 He's just got everybody's closet.

4:51 We just got his golf.

4:52 We just got it.

4:53 We're coming.

4:54 Yeah.

4:55 I just see him.

4:56 You see?

4:57 He's saying he's a golf fan.

4:58 I got him coming out as a golf fan.

4:59 I just got under his skin.

5:00 It's about time.

5:01 I knew putting you directly across for me for this batch is not going to be like, because

5:03 I have to look at you the most.

5:04 Right.

5:05 And there's a glare off this light.

5:07 Because of your head.

5:08 Yeah.

5:09 That's part of the problem.

5:10 That didn't.

5:11 No, okay.

5:12 So like, but yeah, y'all actually like watch golf.

5:13 That's like a thing.

5:14 I didn't know.

5:15 I love golf.

5:16 I love to play golf.

5:17 I might even watch it.

5:18 Okay, how often do because everyone at the table plays golf show me.

5:20 So how often are y'all playing rounds of golf?

5:23 Sometimes I play two or three rounds of week.

5:25 Say you're in a month.

5:26 How many times are you playing in a month?

5:28 I would say now in a month.

5:29 I probably like maybe twice a month.

5:31 Okay.

5:32 Twice a month.

5:33 I play five times a year.

5:34 I used to play four or five times a week.

5:36 Yeah.

5:37 Whoa.

5:38 That is so much golf.

5:39 Yep.

5:40 Yeah.

5:41 I'm probably with you.

5:42 I probably played three or four times a year.

5:43 Used to play once a week was never any good, but, but used to play more.

5:47 So you asked me off air, they're like, you know, how much golf have you played?

5:50 So the thing was is I didn't grow up playing golf.

5:52 I think I played one or two rounds because like my, my dad didn't golf.

5:55 No one, no one I was around golf would like nobody will actually add an uncle that was

5:58 actually a fantastic golfer, but I just, it was never really my thing.

6:02 I was always playing baseball or, you know, wrestling or doing something else, but I was

6:06 convinced like, okay, if you can't golf, you won't be successful in life.

6:10 Yeah.

6:11 Right.

6:12 Because like, you know, you see all these things about, oh, well, you know, all the deals get

6:13 done on the back nine and, you know, you get your handshake deal on the 18th green and

6:17 you know, whatever the thing was, but every time I would play like, whether I was playing

6:21 with a group, whether I was playing just with another person or it was like a scramble at

6:25 a tournament or something like that, by the six or seventh hole, I would be so unbelievably

6:29 bored.

6:30 Because you're, you're never going to be good playing that, that rarely and without anyone

6:34 coaching you.

6:35 But you know, I had a baseball swing and so I had kind of this natural slice thing going

6:38 on and all that.

6:39 But I mean, I went to the driving range all the time and I was like actually like practicing

6:42 with, with buddies of mine, they were actually good, but it was just, it just got to the point

6:46 where I'm like, I don't like this.

6:47 Like every time I come out here, I hate it.

6:49 And so it's like, if this is what I'm going to do with my free time, I got to have something

6:52 else that I'm just not like miserable the entire time.

6:55 I'm great for nine holes.

6:56 After that, I, I'm the same way I lose interest and I've hit more shots than most people will

7:00 hit in 18.

7:01 So I'm already up.

7:02 Go through.

7:03 Yeah.

7:04 That's the other thing.

7:05 I'm usually out of balls, usually it's trying to jump into the pond or something grabs

7:10 some more.

7:11 My best thing with golf is whenever I would go looking for my ball, I'd never find mine,

7:13 but I'd find two of other people's balls and they were the people that spent money on

7:17 really good balls, but they just weren't willing to go that far into the woods to search for

7:21 their, you know, tireless or their, whatever.

7:22 Yeah.

7:23 I started, I started playing golf maybe like two and a half years ago.

7:27 My wife got me lessons and then fitted for golf clubs.

7:29 Oh, yeah.

7:30 That's right.

7:31 And that's why I got started in golf.

7:32 And I remember talking to the golf pro and he was like, well, how well do you, you know,

7:36 how do you play?

7:37 And he's like, well, you know, what's your handicap?

7:39 I was like, I don't even know what my handicap is.

7:41 He's like handicap is golf because I'm terrible at it.

7:44 Well, that's what I was like.

7:45 He's like, well, what do you want out of it?

7:46 I was like, I want to play a whole 18 and not lose my ball.

7:49 And he's like, okay.

7:51 So now now I probably lose maybe two.

7:54 So what does that translate?

7:55 I used to leave.

7:56 I used to lose sleep.

7:57 You lose sleeves of balls.

8:00 Yeah.

8:01 Oh, oh, like I could never go out with a sleeve of balls.

8:04 Like I had a bag.

8:05 I had a bag full of balls and they were, they were terrible, but like I would just, and

8:09 sometimes I would just hit a shot so bad so far into the woods where it's like, I don't

8:14 care.

8:15 Like just, I would tell my part, throw the ball wherever.

8:17 Like I'll just hit it from where the next place is.

8:18 It's no different than jujitsu.

8:20 Right.

8:21 Like I grew up, I grew up playing early early.

8:23 Hold on.

8:24 Wait, in the sense, in the sense of you've got to progressively get better and your interest

8:28 will will increase with that.

8:30 Like I started playing when I was six.

8:32 So my real dad was golf pro on golf courses.

8:36 His brother played in the Nike tour.

8:38 My dad's name was on the Wilson staff golf balls.

8:41 And so I was kind of immersed in that.

8:43 And then my stepdad who raised me played for business all the time.

8:46 So I never had a chance.

8:47 I was on a golf course all the time working him.

8:49 You name it.

8:50 And as you get older, when I started to use that from a business sense, man, it was great.

8:54 I mean, you get, you connect with a bunch of people, you get four hours on the course,

8:57 all that kind of thing.

8:58 But then it becomes beautiful because of the places you get to go, some of the most beautiful

9:02 places I have ever seen from an outdoor perspective.

9:05 And then you kind of get a community of people that love doing it with you.

9:08 So you kind of get immersed.

9:09 And it's something you can invest in for your whole life, which I think is awesome.

9:12 I've got memories with mentors and dads and family that I definitely want my kids to have.

9:17 And there's some similarities with, you know, Jiu Jitsu.

9:19 I mean, usually by the time you're 60 or hips out from playing golf or Jiu Jitsu, you know,

9:24 usually Jiu Jitsu, it's about 35 40, but, you know, yeah, because from your extensive

9:28 experience with Jiu Jitsu, didn't you do it for like 45 minutes?

9:31 Probably.

9:32 Probably Jiu Jitsu is enough that you play golf, so no, no, I spent ridiculous amounts

9:39 hours.

9:40 I actually do have a question.

9:41 I spent ridiculous amounts of time.

9:42 You spent 45 minutes.

9:43 One time.

9:44 I spent more than 45 minutes.

9:45 You didn't even take your socks off when you got on the mat.

9:47 I had those nice socks that had grips on them.

9:51 You got to have rougher feet so that your feet are the grips, right?

9:55 I didn't want to slip on somebody's sweat.

9:57 You're the guy at the trampoline park like with your, you bring your own trampoline park

10:01 socks out there.

10:02 You got your sticky socks.

10:03 I'm like $4.

10:04 Good to go.

10:05 Do we need to bring back up the sock thing or any of our new listeners?

10:09 I've got socks now.

10:10 We're good.

10:11 Okay.

10:12 Well, wait.

10:13 We have kind of come full circle on this.

10:14 Russ, do you know what story we're talking about here?

10:15 No, I don't.

10:16 Okay.

10:17 So I can't remember what precipitated it.

10:18 Well, first of all, so here we are in Sunday school class and Ryan's wearing a fantastic

10:22 pair of either ostrich cowboy boots or Cayman belly.

10:25 I can't remember which.

10:26 Cayman tail.

10:27 Cayman tail.

10:28 So he's wearing these Cayman tail boots.

10:29 Like cognac, light brown, whatever.

10:31 And then I don't even know what I asked to get you to just offer up this information.

10:37 Oh, yeah.

10:38 He didn't wear his.

10:39 I was wearing my ostrich that day.

10:40 Oh, I remember.

10:41 You got your new ostrich.

10:42 Yeah.

10:43 I had some new ostrich ones and there was like something on the inside at the very top

10:45 of mine.

10:46 Yeah.

10:47 That was like brand new.

10:48 It's kind of rubbing.

10:49 So it was like, you know, a thread that had come out.

10:50 You know, it's kind of rubbing my legs.

10:51 I don't have any socks.

10:52 It goes like my socks don't go that high in this doof pulls up his as he takes his boot

10:58 off and he pulls up his jeans.

11:01 He's got two different pairs of socks on.

11:02 Okay.

11:03 Wait.

11:04 Wait.

11:05 He's got, well, it's not even technically it's like one and a half pairs of socks.

11:07 So he's got normal like athletic socks on.

11:10 And then he's got like dress socks that he has cut the foot part out.

11:14 So it's just like the two part.

11:16 And so he's got regular socks with these tubes on there so that it wouldn't rub on his sweet

11:23 little legs the entire time.

11:24 I think my wife has some of those that she wears with like her.

11:28 It's like her.

11:29 Yeah.

11:30 That's, that's where they got some long dress socks.

11:34 Was that what you got for Christmas?

11:35 Yeah.

11:36 I got a Christmas.

11:37 Finally, he was so proud.

11:38 He came out to me and church is like, God, look, he was all bushy.

11:41 Tailed.

11:42 He's like, look, I got socks that go all the way.

11:43 It's kind of ingenious.

11:44 You can turn any sock into a dress.

11:46 I was like, but that's the thing.

11:47 I was like, Oh man, I want to wear these boots, but I don't have any socks that go that high.

11:51 So I was like, these ones got holes in them.

11:53 Solving problem.

11:54 And you need the bottom part to be thicker than the, than the dress socks usually.

11:58 They are.

11:59 So you get the thickness of the regular sock with the dress sock in my boot.

12:03 And so I got the thickness of like the actual sock.

12:06 So it didn't move against.

12:07 Oh, okay.

12:08 Right.

12:09 See, that's a try.

12:10 I understand me here back when I wore these boots.

12:15 I had to wear dress socks because I was so fat that my feet were just like swollen, you

12:19 know, I'm like, I'm like gone down like 40 pounds from like, yeah, from a, from a, and

12:25 so now I can wear regular socks from my boots.

12:27 No, see, when I wear the dress socks, no, it's too small.

12:30 Russ, you were trying to help him out or too big.

12:32 What he was doing would be like, if you only wore your vest in here, but then we just cut

12:36 your sleeves off and then you just rolled sleeves up and you've got a vest on and just

12:40 your sleeves.

12:41 That's what you do.

12:42 I was just, I was just trying to make some socks on.

12:44 Solve the problems.

12:45 I like it.

12:46 The basketball extensions, you know, just wore those with your polos.

12:50 We're like that.

12:51 You could do that.

12:52 Those fake tattoos, yeah, that's like what I have on right now.

12:57 No, I was actually trying to bring a full circle to the jujitsu thing, jujitsu golf.

13:00 Here's my confusing thing is, so if you do jujitsu two or three days a week for what,

13:07 how long have I been doing it, eight or nine years, like you may or may not, you will very

13:12 likely not be world class, but ain't nobody in a random room of dudes whooping you ain't

13:17 nobody whooping you unless they've got, you know, some sort of freakish genetic advantage,

13:21 350 pounds with abs type situation, maybe, maybe, but you hear about these guys that golf

13:26 two or three times a week and here they are 10, 12, 20 years later and they still absolutely

13:31 suck.

13:32 They're just absolutely atrociously bad and it's like, yes, it's a really, really difficult

13:36 game, but it's like the payoff for jujitsu is it sucks the whole way, right?

13:43 But then one day you're like, okay, I'm not good forever, but like, I'm pretty good.

13:48 No matter what room I'm in, like, it's not going to be a problem for me, but with golf,

13:52 you just feel like people don't ever get there.

13:55 They're just levels, you know, like some of these guys are just naturally talented.

14:00 Like I mentioned, my uncle, he's the kind of guy that wouldn't pick up a golf club for

14:05 like five years.

14:06 And then he went, he was recruited to play in the superintendent's course, the golf, what's

14:10 that called John Deere Classic, and he goes out and shoots like a 64 day one, just natural.

14:17 And I've got other families.

14:18 It's not the same thing.

14:19 Like you just got to have the reps.

14:20 What I found is if you're, when you're playing that three or four times a week, then your

14:23 strokes are definitely going to come down.

14:24 And if you get somebody helping you, like you get in jujitsu, you're exposed by definition

14:29 to another person that's rolling with you, making you better.

14:32 I think a lot of golfers just get out there and kind of take, you know, golf course advice

14:35 and try to get better.

14:37 But if you become disciplined about it, you invest in it, you're going to see some increases.

14:41 I've been playing for two years and I got a foe, a foe, hole in one.

14:45 So it's not a real one.

14:47 What happened was my brother talked to my swing when I was on this hole.

14:51 And so I basically got a mulligan and so I went and hit again and I got a hole in one.

14:57 No, that's a real one.

14:59 That's a real one.

15:00 You actually got my screen brother.

15:01 What's wrong with you?

15:02 Yeah.

15:03 He was like, Oh, dude, hit that again.

15:04 So really it's your brother's fault that you got a hole in one.

15:07 Yeah.

15:08 I mean, you got to look at that.

15:09 Did you think that?

15:10 Yeah.

15:11 Oh, dude, we were both excited about that hole in one.

15:12 You should be excited.

15:13 But I've been playing for like two years.

15:14 And I got a hole in one.

15:15 That's incredible.

15:16 You get better at golf.

15:17 Like I'm not a very athletic person.

15:18 We both know this.

15:19 It is actually really funny.

15:21 The very first hole I ever played in golf, I birdied and I was just like my buddy.

15:26 So do you know Kyle Perkins?

15:27 All right.

15:28 So anyway, I don't know if it's not going to make any sense to anybody out there.

15:31 That's not named Kyle Perkins.

15:32 But anyway, really good golfer, like all that type of thing.

15:34 And so he's going out there and I'm like asking him, I don't even know.

15:36 Do I tee this up right here?

15:37 Do I like?

15:38 What do I do?

15:39 Yeah.

15:40 And I birdie or not birdie, but I had a chance for birdie like I was putting for birdie on

15:43 the first hole.

15:44 It's like piping mad.

15:46 He's like, what?

15:47 Now I just felt completely to pieces after that because I was like, oh, golf is easy.

15:50 And then the second hole, I was like, oh, this is absolutely.

15:52 That's golf.

15:53 Yeah.

15:54 And so that's basically how that goes.

15:55 Now, to wrap up this golf thing, because for whatever reason, we've talked about golf

15:57 for 15 minutes.

15:58 I think you'd come around.

15:59 This is great.

16:00 I knew you would.

16:01 No.

16:02 What we got out of this is Kyle is a closeted fan of golf.

16:05 100%.

16:06 Hey, I've told you and I've said to people before, it's not like I won't ever play golf.

16:09 Again, there's has to be good enough reason.

16:11 So if like there's, if there's a fundraiser like for a kid and all that and they invite

16:15 a whole bunch of people to go and play and like, hey, you know, let's get that random

16:19 podcaster guy with the angry face, like, let's get him out on the golf course and I will

16:22 absolutely go out there and play.

16:24 I'll take my little clubs.

16:25 You heard it.

16:26 Yeah.

16:27 And I like, dude, I've got, I've got clubs that deliberately never moved out of the corner

16:29 of this half of my garage that has been here for like seven or eight years.

16:33 They've been there.

16:34 They're there.

16:35 They're ready to go.

16:36 Donnie shows us time every time we're in your garage.

16:37 Donnie does this.

16:38 He's like this.

16:39 But I will say I did hear a story recently.

16:41 I forget the three players, but there are three baseball players, Major Leers.

16:44 I think it was Jeff Frankor when he was like at his peak, which would have been probably

16:48 with the Braves.

16:49 I think it was John Smoltz, maybe somebody else, but anyway, it was three major league baseball

16:52 players that were scratch golfers, which means they're right around like par, is that what

16:57 that means?

16:58 A scratch golfer or their handicaps, like two or three.

17:00 That's close.

17:01 Yeah.

17:02 So they're, they're right there and they played around with Tiger Woods and this was Tiger

17:06 Woods when he was like, you know, before everyone found out about the Waffle House.

17:09 Right.

17:10 Yeah.

17:11 Was Waffle House?

17:12 Dude, he got like, that's what he was picking chicks up at the Waffle House.

17:15 I didn't know that part of it.

17:16 Okay.

17:17 Yeah.

17:18 Yeah.

17:19 Before Waffle House, before his wife saved him by chasing him down his own driveway with

17:21 a nine iron and all those types of things that we were told that we needed to be convinced

17:24 were true.

17:26 They're playing around with golf, like, you know, red shirt, Sunday golf, Tiger Woods,

17:30 right?

17:31 And these three guys, they're playing best ball and the Tigers just playing, right?

17:35 And I think, I think they said they lost by like 10 strokes.

17:39 And so, and so we're talking about levels like when, and they also said that on the golf

17:43 course, the most intimidating thing about Tiger is that he wasn't intimidating most of

17:47 the time, like driving around in the cart or walking to his ball or doing whatever, like

17:52 he's making jokes, like they're doing bets or doing all kinds of things.

17:54 But they're like, when he approached the ball, it was like everyone was like, it was like

17:59 Mike Tyson, like walking, like to the ring for a fight.

18:02 It was just like he completely zoned in for that, you know, 15 to 30 seconds, it took him

18:07 to strike the ball.

18:08 And then as soon as the ball landed wherever it landed, he was back to just kind of being

18:11 chill.

18:12 And so the fact that he could like gear in and gear out, they were like terrified.

18:14 So I saw that firsthand.

18:16 I went to Tulsa when they had the, it was either the opener of the championship.

18:19 I can't remember it.

18:20 Southern Hills.

18:21 Yeah.

18:22 I waited all day.

18:23 I got literally right behind the rope on a par four where I could see Tiger teeing off

18:28 and this has been 15 years ago.

18:29 So like he was in the prime, you know, fill in all those guys were out there.

18:33 And the iconic thing happened as I was sitting there, he was approaching the, he was addressing

18:36 the ball.

18:37 He was getting ready to hit his driver.

18:39 He winds back to take his shot and in the middle of his backswing, some, like camera

18:43 clicks.

18:44 Oh, okay.

18:45 And on his down, on his down stroke, he stops on his down stroke and steps back and he's

18:53 got a violent swing.

18:54 Just stopping is like a silent swing.

18:56 The mental and physical part of being able to stop yourself is a, is a level of discipline

19:01 that I'll never understand.

19:02 Right.

19:03 And he did.

19:04 And then he got back up.

19:05 He approached the ball.

19:06 He didn't say anything.

19:07 You could tell he's frustrated, but he got back up, got back to business and just absolutely

19:11 destroyed this drive.

19:12 And it was probably, you know, 20 yards further than most of the guys that I had seen up to

19:16 that point.

19:17 But I mean, that's an example, but I think when you know, when you talk about mental spiritual

19:20 and physical discipline, he was hitting it on two of them.

19:23 But I think that third one, we got some issues.

19:25 Yeah.

19:26 And he can have discipline like that at the tee box.

19:27 Yeah.

19:28 A little bit too much.

19:29 Well, yeah, again, and you did hear it here first.

19:33 If there's a good enough opportunity to golf, I will blow all the dust off those clubs that

19:38 are in the corner of the garage.

19:39 And we will happen this year and dude, I'm not even playing.

19:42 I'm happy Gilmore and the crap out of the first drive.

19:44 I'm just freaking yippin out of here.

19:46 Okay.

19:47 Time.

19:48 Technically, this is a Bible study podcast.

19:49 You would know that by the first 20 minutes.

19:50 But hey, it's master Sunday, which is apparently a thing.

19:53 But we do need to get into Genesis 32 if that's okay with everybody.

19:55 So Ryan, let's go and dig into Genesis 32.

19:59 Let's go ahead and read.

20:00 Actually, you've been talking too much.

20:01 Russ, switching it out, switching it out, just kidding.

20:03 No, we're actually switching, but Russ, you got to read.

20:06 We're going to read.

20:07 Yeah.

20:08 Are you?

20:09 It's because there's no heart.

20:10 There's no heart names.

20:11 I'm a little, I'm a little worried.

20:12 That's why.

20:13 You can read this.

20:14 This is like size five font in this Bible, just travel Bible.

20:18 You can read this.

20:19 Who was it?

20:20 I had the checkbook Bible.

20:21 Was that Dagen or Caleb?

20:22 Checkbook.

20:23 Oh, remember Caleb.

20:24 Caleb.

20:25 Oh, Caleb Martin.

20:26 That's who it is.

20:27 Caleb Martin has.

20:28 As you can tell, I'm a bear's fan.

20:29 Well, when you said that, I thought you were talking about Howard who had money coming out

20:31 of this Bible.

20:32 Like a few weeks ago.

20:33 Oh, Bill Johnson over there.

20:34 I was like, really?

20:35 We did.

20:36 That's the Jolo state version of the Bible.

20:37 What is it?

20:38 It comes with the Bible.

20:39 That one came with the dollar.

20:40 It's not the healing.

20:41 Technically, it's a Bible study podcast.

20:42 Technically, it is.

20:43 So Russ, save us right now.

20:44 We need the first 21 verses of Genesis 32, ready to go.

20:48 Genesis, Genesis, Genesis, it would be helpful if I could say the name.

20:52 We could just skip right around.

20:55 Does Zach, are we good?

20:56 Yeah.

20:57 This is going to start out well.

20:58 Alright.

20:59 Alright.

21:00 Here we go.

21:01 Chapter 32 verse one through 21.

21:02 Yes, sir.

21:03 Alright.

21:04 Jacob also went on his way and the angels of God met him and Jacob saw them.

21:07 He said, "This is the camp of God."

21:09 So he named that place Maha Nam.

21:12 Jacob sent messengers ahead of him to his brother Esau in the land of Sire, the country

21:17 of Edom.

21:18 He instructed them, "This is what you are to say to my Lord Esau.

21:21 Your servant Jacob says, 'I have been staying with Laban and have remained there till now.

21:27 I have cattle and donkeys, sheeps, goats and male and female servants.

21:31 Now I'm ascending this message to my Lord that I may find favor in your eyes.

21:37 When the messengers returned to Jacob, they said, "We went to your brother Esau and now

21:41 he is coming to meet you and 400 men are with him.

21:45 In great fear and distress, Jacob divided the people who were with him into two groups

21:49 in the flocks and the herds and camels as well."

21:53 He thought, "If Esau comes and attacks one group, the other group, that is, left may

21:57 escape."

21:58 Then Jacob prayed, "God of my father Abraham, God of my father Isaac, Lord, you said to

22:06 me, 'Go back to your country and your relatives and I will make you prosper.

22:10 I am unworthy of all the kindness and faithfulness you have shown your servant.

22:14 I had only my staff when I crossed this Jordan.

22:17 But now I have become two camps.

22:20 Save me I pray from the hand of my brother Esau, for I'm afraid he will come and attack

22:25 me and also the mothers and their children.

22:27 But you have said I will surely make you prosper and will make your descendants like the sand

22:31 of the sea which cannot be counted."

22:34 He spent the night there and from what he had with him he selected a gift for his brother

22:38 Esau, 200 female goats and 20 male goats, 200 ewes and 20 rams, 30 female camels with

22:46 their young, 40 cows and 10 bulls, and 20 female doggies and 10 male doggies.

22:51 He put them in the care of his servants each heard by itself and of his and to his servants.

22:56 He said, "Go ahead of me and keep some space between the herds.

23:00 He instructed the one in the lead when my brother Esau meets you and asks, 'Who do you belong

23:05 to and where are you going and who owns all these animals in front of you?'

23:09 Then you are to say, 'They belong to your servant Jacob.

23:12 They are a gift sent to my Lord Esau and he is coming behind us.

23:16 He also instructed the second and the third and all others who followed the herds.

23:21 You are to say the same thing to Esau when you meet him and be sure to say, 'Your servant

23:25 Jacob is coming behind us.'

23:28 For he thought, 'I will pacify him with these gifts I am sending on a head.

23:32 Later when I see him perhaps he will receive me.'

23:35 So Jacob's gifts went on ahead of him but he himself spent the night and the camp."

23:41 Awesome.

23:42 Thank you Russ.

23:43 What version is that that you read from?

23:44 That is the NIV.

23:45 NIV.

23:46 Okay guys.

23:47 Is that acceptable?

23:48 ESP.

23:49 Yeah, it's okay.

23:50 It's not the message.

23:51 It's not the message.

23:52 Yeah.

23:53 I mean Andy Stanley uses the NIV.

23:54 Sure.

23:55 Just saying.

23:56 You're going to be okay with that.

23:57 All right.

23:58 We can maybe help you graduate to another version by the end of this.

24:00 No.

24:01 So let's get into the first thing here because I got to tell you this was one of those things

24:03 where when I read it the first time, I don't know if I just wasn't ready for words to process

24:07 in my brain.

24:08 So I reread the very first two verses, I was like, "Wait a minute.

24:12 Jacob went on his way and the angels of God met him.

24:14 And then when Jacob saw him, then he said, "This is God's camp."

24:17 So we called the name of the place, Man Hanaim or whatever, which basically means two camps.

24:22 One camp is where the, you know, Jacob is wives, children, flocks and all those people

24:26 were.

24:27 And the other camp was God and the angels.

24:28 I was like, "Wait.

24:29 Hang on."

24:30 Like, so there was an actual camp and like God and angels were like chilling in one camp

24:33 and you were on the other camps site.

24:35 And when I went and dug into I think four different commentaries, not a peep about it.

24:39 Yeah.

24:40 Like they basically explained what Man Hanaim or whatever is, is it means two camps.

24:45 But aside from that, it was like, okay, these were definitely angels of God because it's

24:49 only found two places in the Old Testament.

24:51 They're describing it here.

24:52 And then in Genesis 28, 11 through 13, which is kind of that ladder dream of the angels

24:57 coming up and down the ladder.

24:58 And so this is like physical in the flesh, angels and God chilling in this other camp,

25:03 like legit chilling in this other camp in like no commentary.

25:07 So I went through Moody Reformation Study Bible, ESV Study Bible, and there's one more I can't

25:12 think of, I'll top my head.

25:13 And I was just like, none of them had anything to say about this.

25:15 It's like, what's going on?

25:16 A MacArthur.

25:17 That was the other one.

25:18 They basically didn't say anything.

25:19 So did you all see anything or glean anything on this first little bit?

25:21 We're just cool.

25:22 Okay.

25:23 Yeah.

25:24 There were just angels in another campsite across the way.

25:25 I didn't, I didn't glean any of that from this, but you made me think about it.

25:30 Yeah.

25:31 I don't know.

25:32 I've never, are you looking something up, Zach?

25:33 Yeah, I should probably, I guess I'm going to put it in the Logos or whatever, but it's

25:36 like, I don't know if I was making too much of a thing about it, or if I was not supposed

25:40 to be making too much of a thing about it.

25:42 Yeah.

25:43 The only thing I heard is they just addressed it to say that for some reason he understood

25:48 that they were the Lord's Angels and that they were there for a purpose to set this

25:53 place apart.

25:54 And since it was set apart for them, he could consider it a safe place.

25:59 Right.

26:00 Yeah.

26:01 Especially.

26:02 It's a lot in.

26:03 But that's what I heard.

26:04 Yeah.

26:05 But I mean, that would make sense.

26:06 I'm trying to bring up my Logos.

26:07 I'm trouble logging in.

26:08 That's not their fault.

26:09 My fault, which by the way, if you don't have the Logos Bible software, that's a LOGOS.

26:13 We have a link in the show notes where you guys can check that out at a discount.

26:16 You see, you have to buy the entire platform or whatever.

26:19 Now you can just kind of do like a monthly sign up.

26:21 It's a subscription base.

26:22 Yeah.

26:23 It's a more subscription base.

26:24 So you guys can go and check that out, but you can check it out at a discount.

26:26 So went ahead and mention that, but if anybody sees anything on that, feel free to fire away

26:30 or we can just keep moving on.

26:31 What's going on in my Bible?

26:33 I got nothing.

26:34 The only thing Wierzby kind of talks about is the fact that he really wasn't relying

26:40 on God by calling Esau Lord and kind of crafting his own plan for how he could be real smooth

26:47 about sending his gifts and all that.

26:48 He wasn't really relying on the Lord.

26:50 Yeah.

26:51 That's what I really got out of it.

26:52 It was like, you look at Jacob setting up this ransom, just saying like, "Hey, he's

26:57 plying him with something, like don't kill me," but he doesn't trust in God.

27:02 And that's kind of brought me back to a sermon last week at our church from Philip the Corsi.

27:06 Yeah.

27:07 And he talked about how we can say, we can talk about our affliction and say, "I'm dealing

27:12 with this, this, this, and this, but God."

27:15 Well, handle this maybe, rather than starting with God and being like, "Good gracious God,

27:22 we have this going on, but I am dealing with this."

27:26 So you notice that he starts talking about his fear and everything first, but then he

27:32 goes and starts relying on the promise that God had for him and he starts reiterating

27:36 that promise, but he still lives in the fear because he doesn't believe the actual promise.

27:41 It's a weird thing.

27:42 We've talked about it at this table multiple times, but how do you discern when it's appropriate

27:47 to just be patient and sit with when we should be doing things?

27:52 I mean, God calls us to be diligent.

27:54 That's all over his word.

27:55 So when are we supposed to use the faculties and capabilities that we have to try to craft

27:59 some sort of a solution or advance the ball versus when we're just supposed to sit?

28:03 Right.

28:04 It's a hard thing to think about.

28:05 Because it did make a little sense and then you read the Proverbs and some of the Proverbs

28:08 speak to things like this about providing things for the people that you serve and being wise

28:15 about your gifts that the wise man will gift the king and he'll have the king's ear and

28:19 things like that.

28:20 It also talks about, and I think that Jacob is feeling a little bit of this, but the Proverb

28:24 that says a man's wealth is his ransom.

28:28 He's also realizing, oh man, I'm here and my brother's coming and I've got a lot.

28:36 This maybe if I didn't have so much, it wouldn't be worth it for him to mess with me, but he

28:40 can't deny that I did receive Dad's blessing and that's a sore subject.

28:46 I thought it was strange that he actually divided up the camp and that just showed that he didn't

28:50 have his faith in what God could do, because he divided up the camp.

28:56 He'd set one on his head and his bed, and he's like, oh, and then now I'm going to go ahead

29:00 and give this.

29:01 We'll find out later on how Esau reacts, but- Yeah, and are you caring for God's people

29:07 effectively at that point?

29:09 We're going to divide this and you off over there just in case.

29:13 Yeah, and I think one thing that we see here is that Jacob is still a schemer.

29:19 We just see that here.

29:20 If you go starting, I guess, in verse 8, if Esau comes to one camp and attacks it, then

29:25 this camp is left and will escape.

29:27 So all of us at different points, like we've been in sales, we've been in management, we've

29:31 dealt with teams, we ran businesses, all those types of things, you have to scheme.

29:36 We look at the word scheme as like, that's a bad thing, but it's like, hey, you have

29:39 a scheme.

29:40 If you're a football coach, you have a particular scheme for a particular part of the game.

29:45 If you were down or up by a particular amount, and you basically run an offensive scheme

29:49 or a defensive scheme, it's a good thing to do that.

29:52 I think this is where the, I guess it's a Joby as a mountain if he stole it from somebody

29:57 else, but his thing is, pray, guess, go, pray, guess, go.

30:00 And some, a lot of people get stuck in two ways.

30:02 They either get stuck on one of those three, or they get stuck not starting the first one.

30:06 Okay, so it is pray, guess, go, and it is in that order.

30:09 So you pray to God, like, what is your direction?

30:11 What is your will?

30:12 What are you telling me to do?

30:13 What is my next step, right?

30:14 Then you try to surmise, guess, like, okay, I think this is what you're saying, right?

30:19 Is this what you're saying?

30:20 Please give me some confirmation, please make it more clear, you know, settle my heart

30:23 on this issue.

30:24 And then you've got to go.

30:26 So there are people that are experts at the Pray, guess, right?

30:29 Pray.

30:30 Okay.

30:31 This is what I think God is telling me to do.

30:32 Okay.

30:33 I really am sure about this.

30:34 And then they don't have any, you know, effectuation of the idea.

30:37 They don't ever just go.

30:38 They don't ever kind of act it out.

30:39 They don't activate themselves in a particular direction.

30:43 And then there's also the part, like, it's not just Pray, guess, go, done, right?

30:46 It's Pray, guess, go.

30:47 And then along the way, if you experience resistance, is that a message that, oh, this

30:51 wasn't the direction I had for you?

30:53 Or is this like, no, this resistance is evidence that you're doing exactly what you need to

30:58 be doing.

30:59 So like, if every time I took a negative comment or, you know, something not nice that

31:04 somebody says about me or undone a life or something like that, it's like, oh, that's

31:07 aside from God that I'm not doing anything.

31:09 It's like, no, actually because of the content of what's being thrown my way, it's showing

31:12 that I'm more over the X than what I even thought before the comment came across my eyeballs.

31:17 And so it's, again, you have to constantly go through that cycle of Pray, guess, go,

31:22 Pray, guess, go.

31:23 But at some point you do have to have a plan in place and I guess we just call it scheming.

31:26 Well, the thing, the thing that comes down to it though is if you look at Jacob throughout

31:31 like this whole study and we're going to see it again here in actual physical form on the

31:37 next part that we read, he struggled throughout life to follow what God's plan was and trying

31:42 to not make things happen the way that he wanted to make it happen on his own.

31:46 And to get his way to get his way than rather than let God do what God wants to do.

31:50 Like God, God used what he did and did what he needed to do, but like you'll see a struggle

31:55 between him and God and we're going to see that here in the next chat within the next

31:59 book part of this story and how that comes to a head.

32:03 This, I just think it's interesting because we're talking about it.

32:06 The commentary here says, faith is living without scheming.

32:11 Before we criticize Jacob, we need to examine our own hearts to see if we've ever been guilty

32:14 of praying piously and then depending on our own schemes and resources.

32:19 It's true that faith without works is dead, but Jacob's gift wasn't a work of faith because

32:24 God didn't command it.

32:25 The old saying, the Lord helps those who helps themselves is totally unbiblical.

32:31 True faith is based on what God's word is based on God's word and whatever we do that

32:36 isn't motivated by faith is sin no matter how successful it may appear.

32:40 Are you all watching the chosen, have you all been keeping up with that?

32:44 Is the new season?

32:45 No.

32:46 It's happened.

32:47 The new season is out in theaters.

32:48 I haven't seen it yet.

32:49 By the time you are here and this is probably out on streaming, whatever something is.

32:53 So one of the things that I love that they've done is they've shown how hard it is to follow

33:00 Jesus and to not get ahead of your skis on scheming the next move.

33:06 The disciples, if there's one thing that they've done a great job of portraying is that the

33:11 disciples are most human in their nature to go talk with Jesus, think they understand

33:18 what he's doing and then be like, oh, he's going to be so proud because I went and did

33:23 this and figured this out and went ahead and did this and this and this and then he's

33:27 got to bring them back and that line that he keeps on saying is soon and he talks about

33:31 that's a funny word, that's soon line.

33:34 His timing is different and I think we see some of this and we'll see more of it as we

33:38 go.

33:39 Well, that's one thing that I've talked about a lot before because I know people have their

33:42 issues with the chosen.

33:43 Some people think it's a, the chosen in and of itself is like a violation of the second

33:46 commandment because they think, you know, showing Jesus like in a artistic form is, you

33:50 know, like making a graven image, which is ridiculous.

33:53 And then other people are like, okay, these are, you know, it's some Bible, but then it's

33:56 a bunch of extra stuff that they're putting on top of it.

33:59 But I, I look at the chosen the same way I look at the 2011 book by John Eldridge called

34:03 Beautiful Outlaw, which I've talked about on The Daily Blade.

34:07 And it's basically, that was the first time I, after I read that book, and you know, John

34:11 Eldridge, like he's, he's more poetic in his language and some of the things that he describes

34:14 and sometimes he takes poetic license and he's very open like, Hey, I'm taking some license

34:17 here, but I'm reading through that book and he's like, look, you, you can't fall in love

34:23 with a, how did he, how did he word it's like falling in love with the caring and compassionate

34:30 Jesus.

34:31 That is what most people think of is like trying to fall in love with a get well card.

34:34 It's like, no, it's, it's too, it's too, too dimensional, right?

34:37 It's like watching a television show without the volume on.

34:41 And so if you read through certain passages of scripture, like, and then Jesus went here

34:45 and then Jesus did this thing and then there was another thing that happened, devoid of

34:49 emotion, you take the manhood of Jesus out of him, because yes, he was fully God, but

34:54 he was fully man.

34:55 He wasn't cheating.

34:56 He wasn't like, Oh yeah, I'm a man, but I'm not actually starving in the desert, y'all

35:00 like I'm God, like I'm good to go.

35:01 Like, no, he was, he was actually hungry.

35:03 He was actually in the garden of Gethseman, and Gethseman, he like losing it, like, like

35:07 please take this cup away from me.

35:09 He was actually suffering there on the cross.

35:11 And so if he is a man, then he inherently has some sort of a personality.

35:15 And so when you watch something like the chosen, and then you read something like beautiful

35:19 outlaws, like, wait a minute, Jesus had to have been playful.

35:22 He had to have been like, uh, likely sarcastic at certain points, or like, no, you sure,

35:27 you tell me, tell me, right?

35:29 Kind of like how God communicates to Joe, like, eh, hey, where were you?

35:32 When all this stuff was going on, right?

35:34 Yeah.

35:35 And so that's the thing where it's like, Hey, if you don't want to watch shows on, I don't

35:37 care.

35:38 Like just don't make it your, your hilda die on that people that watch the chosen are somehow

35:41 doing something violative of the gospels, like over yourself.

35:43 I actually really enjoy it.

35:45 Yeah.

35:46 And for those people, I was like, I'm not going to watch it, but my wife and I, we like turned

35:49 it on.

35:50 Really enjoyed it.

35:51 I think Jonathan Rumi does a great job playing Jesus and bringing, bringing some sort of

35:55 character to him, uh, cause I'm always used, I'm sorry, I'm always used to the, the 1970s,

36:01 Jesus of Nazareth where he's like all stern face and like.

36:04 Surface white guy, yeah, just staring at you just like, oh man, he's staring at me like

36:10 my dad does when he's mad.

36:12 So I mean, Wes Huff here recently, well, won't be recently.

36:14 It'll be in the past.

36:15 And he got through kind of giving his opinion because he was asked about it at a Q and A

36:18 or something that he did.

36:20 And he was saying that, you know, people now, when they're reading through the gospels,

36:23 they're seeing the actors and actresses that are, uh, portraying these characters or these,

36:28 these true historical people in the gospel accounts and he's seeing those people in his

36:31 head.

36:32 But the thing is, is Jonathan Rumi who plays Jesus will be the first one to tell you, like

36:38 people will come up to him in public in tears because that's, that's Jesus to them and that's

36:44 the problem.

36:45 But here's the thing is Jonathan will be the first one to say like, yeah, I'm, I'm Jonathan

36:48 and it is great to meet you.

36:49 And that's do you know Jesus and like he, and again, for a Catholic, he's pretty dad

36:53 gummy, vangelical when it comes to showing the gospel message in his way.

36:57 Yeah.

36:58 Yeah.

36:59 It's a good point.

37:00 But that's, that's the, that's the problem.

37:01 Like, I think that's where people are just trying to get their heads around things.

37:03 Like my first thing was like, man, people were watching the chosen rather than reading

37:07 the Bible and the chosen put out stuff out there for saying like, no, this is a show,

37:11 like you need to go read your Bible and that's great.

37:13 And I love that Jonathan Rumi comes out and says, dude, I am not Jesus.

37:16 And that's the problem.

37:17 And that's what people get worried about about that second commandment is that people

37:20 start worshiping Jonathan Rumi thinking he's Jesus and this is what Jesus is like when

37:25 he's just playing a character.

37:27 It's such a tough space to be successful in.

37:29 I mean, that same interview that you're talking about with Wes Huff, there was a guy named

37:32 Ruslan on the stage.

37:33 Do you know him?

37:34 Yeah.

37:35 He's like a, he's like a rapper, YouTube or something.

37:36 He's a podcaster.

37:37 Yeah.

37:38 Kind of a faith podcast.

37:39 He's pretty good.

37:41 He was like, man, I know these guys.

37:42 I know the guys that are making the chosen.

37:44 I mean, I've been to the set.

37:45 I've been to their conferences.

37:46 I've done all the things and they're very clear about what this is and what it's not.

37:51 You know, and I think if they're coming from the right place, man, it's so useful because

37:54 they're, they're making it real where you can feel the social context that he's bucking

38:01 in a way that's very difficult to get when you're reading it.

38:03 Yeah.

38:04 And it's like, dang, this guy is serious.

38:07 And if you said something like that today in that environment, ooh, I don't know.

38:11 So there isn't a, so this all kind of came to head because here recently, Douglas Murray

38:18 did a debate with David Stewart on the Joe Rogan experience and it was basically about

38:22 Israel.

38:23 And at one point, Douglas Murray, cause Dave Stewart's big on like Israel's the bad guy.

38:27 They're the bully, these poor Palestinians, those types of things.

38:29 And then Doug Smurley goes, Hey, have you ever been to need these checkpoints that you

38:33 talk about?

38:34 Any of these areas and Dave Stewart was like, well, no, I haven't.

38:37 But the obvious point is like you've never been there.

38:39 So you can't make an opinion of it.

38:41 Then the, the opposite side of that is like, Hey, well, I don't have to have gone to the

38:44 Supreme court to have, you know, an opinion on it, one of their decisions.

38:47 I don't have to have experienced the Gulag to give an, you know, an opinion on it.

38:51 But then somebody made it real cause I was more on Dave Stewart side to where it's like,

38:54 look, I can have an opinion on something, whether or not I've been there.

38:57 But then someone posted a clip, uh, one of the best scenes of goodwill hunting, where

39:02 Will is on the bench and he, you know, Robin Williams, this character comes up to him.

39:06 And he basically says like, Hey, you know, if I were to ask you about, you know, Michael

39:10 Angelo, I'm sure you could spout off all these things from all these different historical

39:14 books.

39:15 But do you know what the Sistine Chapel smells like?

39:17 Have you ever looked up at that ceiling, right?

39:20 And I remember for me, when I saw the last judgment for the first time, and then I looked

39:23 up and saw the creation of Adam and I was just like, Oh my goodness, like this is, this

39:28 is unbelievable.

39:29 Like I literally just gave myself like literal goosebumps thinking about it.

39:31 And it's like it is different because what you're doing is you're, you're allowing somebody

39:35 to visit something that otherwise, if they're not a super creative person that can't like

39:41 create bones and structures out of narratives, like you're, you're giving them an example.

39:47 And I talk all the time about the woman with the problem of blood.

39:50 That story never landed with me my entire life.

39:53 And then that was a three episode arc in the chosen season three or four or something like

39:57 that.

39:58 And I can barely talk about that part of scripture anymore without getting upset in a good way,

40:03 just because it's like, wait a minute, this little girl was had was the same age as the

40:07 number of years this woman had been suffering.

40:09 What do you want to bet that that little girl was born on the same day that this woman's

40:12 problem of blood started.

40:14 And then here they are like converging this Jesus is going to resurrect this little girl

40:19 from the dead.

40:20 And he's touched by this woman who's had this problem of blood and like he picks up her

40:23 face and calls her daughter.

40:25 And she had been completely expelled from polite society and from her family because

40:28 she was not just unclean ritualistically, she was unclean as a person, the chosen did

40:33 that for me.

40:34 And so it's like, people were like, well, you should have just read the Bible and got

40:37 it and understood.

40:38 It's like, okay, bad word that came to mind right now that I didn't say out loud.

40:41 It's like, what do you want me to do?

40:43 Like that that helped me understand the truth of Jesus and the gospel and even deeper way.

40:48 My wife and I had that aha moment in a chosen episode where, you know, I was just watching

40:52 it.

40:53 But that aha moment that you had with that came with us when Mary Magdalene falls away, like

40:57 she's following Jesus.

40:59 And then she goes back to her old lifestyle for like a day or night and they can't find

41:03 her.

41:04 And she comes back just broken and knows that she, what she did was wrong thinking that

41:09 Christ is going to expel her from, from the group.

41:13 And he's just like, it's not easy.

41:16 It's not easy to be who you are, you know, to, to deal what you're dealing with, with

41:21 this sin.

41:22 But I'm never going to leave you, but I'm going to help you get through it, you know?

41:25 And it was basically is like, man, that was a perfect look of Christ's love for us.

41:29 Even for a non-believer and a believer, because even as a believer, I fall short of the glory

41:33 all the time.

41:34 I do stupid crap daily that I probably should apologize for all the time, but knowing that

41:39 Christ's love is unconditional and that he's going to walk with me through the whole thing.

41:43 I think they showed a beautiful picture of that with somebody within who's actually walking

41:48 with Christ.

41:49 Well, and even if you had, so if you do something that's bad and sinful, it might shock the

41:53 people at this table, and I shock the people that you live with, doesn't shock God.

41:57 No.

41:58 You think Jesus was like, oh my gosh, Mary Magdalene, you're like, gosh, that was a hard

42:01 left turn.

42:02 She took there and like, yeah, he's not surprised by anything.

42:04 And he's not surprised.

42:05 And again, the point is not, okay, so go live a crazy, you know, life, you know, liberty

42:11 and life where you're just going to do whatever I want and, you know, kind of just, you know,

42:15 go, you know, with whatever whim and whatever direction that I want, it's like, no, that's

42:19 not the point.

42:20 That Jesus knew that whenever he sacrificed his life on the cross, he knew you were going

42:24 to do that.

42:25 The one where they're, the one that got me that always resonates is when they're sitting

42:28 at the side of that pool and the whole episode's that guy that falls out of the tree, breaks

42:32 his legs and then kind of chooses to stew in it and sit there and then Christ comes and

42:36 what does he say?

42:38 Do you want to be healed, which is followed by a bunch of excuses and misdirection and

42:43 all that stuff.

42:44 And he's consistently looking at him despite all of that saying, do you want to be healed?

42:48 I think it's so personal.

42:50 Right.

42:51 So I got, I got one question here before we move on to the last half of Genesis 32 because

42:55 I wrote this in the bottom and again, you know, I can, you know, depending on my mood, be

42:59 a little, a little prickly, a little, a little judgment, a little rough.

43:03 But I'm like, I already know the end of the story, but it's like, I was rooting for Esau

43:07 because I was like, Jacob, you're just like, you're just a little wussy boy, like you're

43:10 a little schemer and you got out schemed and now there's your brother and 400 of his like

43:15 battle ready, but he's headed your direction and I'm just like, get him, Esau, get, get

43:19 the little schemer.

43:20 But it was just like, and again, I know Jacob was the one who's continuing, you know, the

43:24 covenant blessing and not Esau, even though he was the eldest and, you know, Esau was,

43:29 you know, yeah, he might be a good hunter and he might be a good outdoorsman and all that,

43:32 but he's also a fool and like, he's just a hairy idiot is this guy.

43:36 But like, I just found myself like it being difficult for me to like Jacob, which again,

43:42 we should not judge people that are historically described in the Bible is like, well, I don't

43:45 like that person.

43:46 Like, that's not exactly the point who really cares, but I just like, I just found myself

43:50 being like, gosh, Jacob, like, okay, I just, I couldn't root for the guy and I felt like

43:54 I was supposed to because he's not red headed and we don't know that.

43:58 We don't know that.

43:59 No, Esau was red.

44:00 You tell me there weren't a recessive gene folk.

44:01 There was.

44:02 Esau was, Esau came out of red head.

44:04 That's why you, that's why you feel a connection with his, but we don't know that Jacob wasn't

44:08 a red head, it just wasn't described here, okay, but he probably, probably had alopecia.

44:12 You know, probably bald and frumpy and, you know, yeah, terrible awful person.

44:17 So Esau, Jacob, that's us.

44:20 One thing that is actually surprising about what the Bible does say.

44:24 So like where we're saying, like, don't judge these guys in the New Testament, one of the

44:28 descriptions of Esau is one of the biggest warnings about not being like somebody that

44:33 we get from the Bible where it says and don't be like Esau who sold his inheritance for,

44:40 for a meal.

44:41 Yeah.

44:42 And so like you do, you do kind of see his plight.

44:44 And then you kind of are like, man, he's, he's got it hard.

44:47 And then even later on in the New Testament, you read the New Testament authors are actually

44:51 referring back to him and be like, and whatever you do, don't be Esau because he was dumb

44:55 and did this and you're like, man, the guy was just hungry.

44:58 Like he didn't know his brother was scheming on him.

45:00 Hey, you know what?

45:01 If we do get to like meet some of these people in heaven or something like that, like go

45:04 up and it's like, okay, that's the, the room where there's the line to go see Moses or to

45:07 go see like, you know, David, I do want to go up to you.

45:10 So I'd be like, Hey, bro, was, was it good that it was like, it was it a good bowl stew

45:14 or something like that?

45:15 Cause like, let's be honest, let's not pretend like all of us haven't wondered what exactly

45:18 did Bathsheba look like to make David like murder a guy to like take over and all that.

45:22 Like we just, we got to be able to make sure that we can, you know, check these things

45:25 out.

45:26 Ask them questions.

45:27 I got questions.

45:28 Okay.

45:29 Cause I've made some good chili before.

45:31 I don't know that I'd give up my, my birthright in my positioning in terms of the inheritance

45:35 for my own bowl of chili or something like that.

45:36 He didn't finish it.

45:37 And he knew at that point what it looks cost name.

45:39 So I'd imagine he was hungry.

45:40 I think he knows how to cook cause Isaac was like, Hey, go find some wild game.

45:45 Yeah.

45:46 Cook me up my favorite meal.

45:47 Fresh back straps too.

45:48 I think he was just lazy.

45:49 He saw was just like, Oh man, I don't want this already done.

45:52 Feed me.

45:53 All right.

45:54 I'll give you this.

45:55 I think it was entitlement.

45:56 Yeah.

45:57 More.

45:58 And we see, we see Jacob.

45:59 There is one thing in this first part that we see of Jacob that I think will continue

46:02 on as we watch is he's pretty passive.

46:06 And then he even tries to use that.

46:07 He says, like the reason I'm doing this is I'm going to pacify my brother.

46:11 Yeah.

46:12 Like I'm just going to like do, do this, not really go confront, not really go have the

46:17 conversation.

46:18 It probably needs to be had, but I'm going to, I'm going to try to pacify him first.

46:22 And then as we go through some of these later chapters, we see that just continues and continues.

46:28 And it's actually a family trade.

46:29 It goes all the way down.

46:30 You see David do some of that when one of his daughters are right.

46:33 How does that, how does that observation compare though with wrestling with God to the point

46:39 that you get your hip, but I do it well and that's why he's reading it.

46:43 Let's go ahead and get into the last part of Genesis 32 where Jacob plays around a golf

46:47 with God.

46:48 Oh wait.

46:49 No, he doesn't because golf isn't described in the Bible.

46:50 We know it is.

46:51 Rasslins play golf.

46:52 So Jacob's coming off the top rope, you know, super fly, Jimmy Snooko on to God here.

46:57 So Zach, let's go ahead and read this starting in verse 22, just go ahead and read the rest

47:01 of Genesis 32 for us.

47:03 The same night he rose and took his two wives and two female servants and his 11 children

47:07 and crossed the forward of the javic.

47:10 He took them and sent them across the stream and everything else that he had.

47:13 And Jacob was left alone and a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day when

47:20 the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched his hip socket and Jacob's

47:24 hip was put out of joint as he wrestled with him.

47:28 Then he said, let me go for the day has broken.

47:31 But Jacob said, I will not let you go unless you bless me.

47:35 And he said to him, what is your name?

47:37 And he said, Jacob, then he said, your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel

47:42 for you have striven with God and with men and have prevailed.

47:48 Then Jacob asked him, please tell me your name.

47:51 But he said, what is it that you ask my name?

47:55 And there he blessed him.

47:56 So Jacob called the name of the place, Peniel saying, for I have rest, I have seen God face

48:02 to face and yet my life has been delivered.

48:05 The sun rose up.

48:07 The sun rose upon him as he passed pinwell limping because of his hip.

48:13 Therefore to this day, the people of Israel do not eat the sin you of the thigh that is

48:18 on the hip socket because he touched the socket of Jacob's hip on the sin you of the thigh.

48:23 So real quick, an interesting note from the MacArthur commentary is he goes from Jacob

48:27 to Israel.

48:28 So Jacob is heel catcher deceiver, right?

48:30 The guy just a second ago, I was like, I can't really root for this guy.

48:33 And then he turns into God's fighter or he struggles with God or he who wrestles with

48:37 God or something like that.

48:39 But when we get into this section of scripture, there's been a lot of ink that's been spilled

48:44 on.

48:45 Okay.

48:46 The only God was this God in a bod was he literally grappling with Jesus all night was

48:52 like, what was this the scene from fight club where he's beating himself up in the office

48:56 the entire time.

48:57 I've never heard it interpreted that, but that was the first thing I thought of.

49:00 I was like, okay, but because again, if you spoiler alert, five clubs, like 25 years

49:04 old, but, you know, Brad Pitt's character is not real.

49:07 Okay, that type of thing.

49:09 But it's like, is he fighting a real person here or someone that's manifesting as a person

49:14 or is he fighting himself and it feels like he's grappling all night because some people

49:18 are like, wait, wait, no, this is just a dark night of the soul.

49:20 This is just, you know, you stay up all night and you're really wrestling with God, but

49:24 this is more spiritual because this smacks of actual physicality to me.

49:29 And I don't really see the ethereal explanation.

49:32 So I don't know where you guys land on it.

49:34 I find that the answer to that is kind of like the answer to people that talked about

49:38 the creation story and they don't believe that it takes more faith to get there that

49:42 this wasn't what it says it is, then it does just read it as it is.

49:46 Now some people have said that God in person, I liked this.

49:50 This is something that I've been trying to think through after I've read it, but that

49:55 God in person, there's only one form of God in person.

49:59 And that is the person of Christ, but that this could have been a pre-Christ, Christophany.

50:08 Yeah, Christophany, and I like that because I've always struggled with, okay, so God,

50:13 the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, we have Christ as the Son, as the man of God.

50:21 And then how do you have God coming in the Old Testament, and that was a good explanation

50:26 to me.

50:27 So.

50:28 What about you guys?

50:29 I kind of agree with Russell.

50:30 I think it's a Christophany.

50:32 I think he's actually wrestling with God and with Christ, and I think we see him wrestling

50:37 with God and with Christ, the Godhead from the very beginning, from his brother to Laban

50:45 to now, he's still wrestling.

50:48 I like to ake in this too, when I think about it, it's like, you know how we wrestle with

50:52 our kids?

50:53 We never use our full power, but they think that they're winning all the time.

50:58 The move faster, but then they can start getting really violent, they'll punch you in the kidneys

51:05 or something like that, and then you just give them a little bit of your power.

51:09 And that's how I think is, you know, Jacob's wrestling God and he's going all day long.

51:16 So you know God could go all day long.

51:17 It's like with my kids, I could go all day long.

51:20 And then all of a sudden they think they got the upper hand and he just pop them like that.

51:23 And they're like, oh, you know.

51:25 And so that's how I kind of think of this is like, God's like, hey man, you can struggle

51:28 with me all you want, but I have the power, you know, just like-

51:31 Why don't you all do it in your house, but in this house, I give those boys full man

51:34 effort every single time, like I just throw them up against the wall.

51:38 I don't let them get a thing now, you know, obviously, no, I think that's actually a really

51:42 good point because again, you know, all roads do lead back to Jiu Jitsu.

51:46 I don't know if you know that, but like, you know, when you have these, these people that

51:48 are like legitimate black belts and you give them a trial class guy, this may be the first

51:53 or second time he's been on a mat of any kind training or something like that.

51:58 No one that I know of, there's not a gym in the world that gives medals away for practice,

52:02 right?

52:03 Like practice championships or things like that.

52:05 And so as a black belt, your, your role is to not just sit there like a limp noodle and

52:09 just let them hurt you or something like that.

52:12 But also, this isn't like the finals for IBJJF, like you, you, like, you got to show them

52:17 something, but the, the point is not to hurt them or kill them.

52:19 You just have to give them enough resistance because, you know, people have talked about

52:23 this like whenever you see these football teams were like, I saw this one guy, a high

52:25 school football coach got arrested because it's his team won like, you know, 77 to nothing

52:30 or something like that.

52:31 You're arrested for some random obscure bullying statute or something like that.

52:34 But it's like, if you tell a football player, hey, only go about 75%.

52:38 That's when you get hurt.

52:39 Okay.

52:40 You can change the offensive scheme.

52:41 You're not going to throw the ball anymore.

52:42 You're not going to run play action, but you have to still play the game.

52:45 But it is interesting here that it's like, okay, if you're wrestling with God, there's

52:48 no, there's really no point in resisting, but Jacob had to have at some point been like,

52:52 no, I've got something here until he was incapacitated.

52:56 Because that's the thing is everyone's really, really, really tough until they get injured.

52:59 And then it's like, Oh crap, like this isn't very good, but he's hanging on for dear, dear

53:02 life here.

53:04 And then at the end, he's like, Hey, I'm not going to let go.

53:06 But he does realize like, Oh, I, my strength is not going to be sufficient here.

53:09 Like I look for some else.

53:11 It says he's prevailed, but he didn't prevail as like, this is what Moody says is like,

53:15 he didn't prevail does not mean that Jacob won rest the wrestling match over powering

53:20 the man.

53:21 Right.

53:22 Instead, it means Jacob having in the end forcibly been forcibly subdued by God prevailed and

53:26 receiving the blessing.

53:27 It's like whenever you give up, like he who gives up his life for my sake will receive

53:31 it.

53:32 Like it's complete upside down, you know, bizarre world of the gospel.

53:34 Yeah.

53:35 Yeah.

53:36 Other stuff on this, this section, as we wrap up our discussion of Genesis 32, I mean,

53:41 the whole idea, the whole idea that Jacob, like the question that came to my mind is,

53:47 why did he send everybody in all of his possessions out and then stay on the other side?

53:52 Was he trying to gain rest?

53:54 Was he trying to gain perspective?

53:56 Did he need that time away?

53:58 And then I heard somebody talk about the idea that also, why did God not want to give him

54:04 that rest?

54:05 It was like God was trying to wear him down so much and that he was trying to be alone

54:09 by himself.

54:10 And then, and then this guy shows up, wrestles him all night long and then makes him admit

54:15 who he is.

54:16 I love that part with Jacob.

54:18 He is trying his whole life not to live up to his name and he just cannot not live

54:24 up to the name of the schemer.

54:27 And then in this particular time, whenever God asked him who you are, he has to admit

54:32 to God in what sounds like a very legitimate wrestling match where there were no schemes

54:38 that he could do, all he could do was hold on at the end and he had to admit to God who

54:42 he is.

54:43 And at that point, when he admits who he is, everything that he has is across the river.

54:49 Everything he has is gone from him and all he has left is who he is before God.

54:53 Just whenever God decides to tell him his name, which is, yeah, I couldn't find it in

54:58 the commentary, but as you were talking, that's exactly right.

55:00 It's something to the effect of God does his best work when we come to the absolute end

55:05 of ourselves and he creates the conditions for that to happen.

55:10 And then all of a sudden, there's some clarity and restoration.

55:13 And his last condition was he hurt.

55:15 So Jacob always runs.

55:16 Yeah.

55:17 Well, he hurt 400.

55:18 And he can't run with a bad hip.

55:20 400 men were coming.

55:21 Sure.

55:22 So he went off and split everybody up and then probably went out and wanted to find peace

55:27 and clarity, which he was probably sitting in his anxiety all by himself, because when

55:32 we sit in our anxiety, we're sitting in there all by ourselves, nobody else is around us.

55:37 And God just sit there and struggled with him the whole night because his biggest struggle

55:40 is to struggle with believing with God's promises.

55:43 And so God's like, no, man, I want to sit here and fight you until you actually believe

55:47 it.

55:48 And if we're thinking in kind of a Sun Tzu art of war type of way, he knows, I bet you

55:53 he thinks he's done.

55:55 Like Esau could kill me with his bare hands, but he's bringing 400 guys to back him up

56:00 here.

56:01 Like, and so I've got to put all the important stuff in this, this other camp or whatever,

56:04 because I'm done for, right?

56:06 Like it's curtains for me, but I need my progeny to have some sort of a plan or whatever.

56:10 And so it's kind of like, if you know you're, you're done for, like you're, you're not

56:13 going to keep all the ammo for yourself as a word, kind of in a modern context.

56:17 It's like, no, you're going to give the provisions and the supplies to the people that would

56:20 go one before you.

56:21 And so again, scheming to the end.

56:23 And but he, but he gets to this point.

56:25 And so he was without his own backup.

56:26 He was without his plans.

56:28 And now he's in this wrestling match.

56:29 And I thought this was an interesting point, because people were like, okay, is this a

56:33 Christ off?

56:34 And he is this the pre incarnate, you know, Christ and all those types of things.

56:37 But Exodus 30 20 is like, no one can see God and live, right?

56:40 And so that is even further evidence that this was, this was Jesus, like this was very likely

56:45 like pre incarnate Jesus wrestling with Jacob the entire night.

56:49 And I, you know, I guess it does kind of work that way, like almost toying with Jacob,

56:54 like, Hey, they're getting after it.

56:55 But one guy's breathing hard and the other guy's in complete control, you know, even

56:59 if somebody's watching and being like, Oh, those two are really getting after it.

57:01 One person just knows they're in control the entire time.

57:04 So much so that touched the hip.

57:05 And it's like, okay, the entire ramp, you know, the entire setup of this is looking a

57:10 lot different.

57:11 I think even Jesus says at one point that nobody has seen the father.

57:14 And so that always conflicted me about this verse until I read some of that kind of made

57:19 more sense.

57:20 You know, I think with what Ryan said, maybe that kind of brings this full circle.

57:23 I feel like I've learned this lesson at this table a couple of times when I'm thick, right?

57:27 It's like, how do we know when to rest or to wait on God or to be patient?

57:31 And as if you, as you guys talk, I listened to anxiety and the fact that he's scheming

57:36 and he's having to put all these pieces together.

57:38 So maybe the answer is, you know, we should be using our gifts and talents and all that,

57:42 but not from a position of fear and anxiety.

57:45 And if it seems to be contradicting that, then we're probably on the wrong side of the

57:49 equation.

57:50 Yeah.

57:51 You know what I'm saying?

57:52 Yeah.

57:53 It's just a weird, it's a weird space.

57:54 Very good.

57:55 But yeah, this is a great section of Scripture.

57:56 Like again, you know, this section of Scripture, this one little section, I mean, this turned

58:00 into a 500 page Jordan Peterson book called We Who Restle With God.

58:03 And I mean, when you talk about again, again, this is a non-Christian, this is a for all

58:07 and since purposes, a secular guy that has a tremendous respect for the, you know, the

58:12 Bible and the lessons that we get there in for morality and humanity in general.

58:17 But I mean, we need to wrestle with the text as well.

58:19 And so I'm not being too like poetic in my language here, but whenever we're reading

58:23 a certain section and we can't quite grasp it, if you're like me, you're wired to just

58:27 keep going on.

58:28 Like you have to keep taking ground, even if you don't understand, you know, the ramifications

58:32 of what's behind you, you got to keep taking ground.

58:34 So we still got to get in and wrestle with the Scripture.

58:36 So guys, we're appreciative of all of y'all can be being here to listen to us as we discuss

58:41 through Genesis.

58:42 So come back here next week where we're going to be talking about Genesis 33 and 34.

58:46 So make sure you're read all the way through Genesis 33 and 34 and one quick note, I've

58:50 talked to a lot of, a lot of guys here recently that have started their own forging tables.

58:54 And so, you know, we have the crossway starter set, you know, forging table starter set in

58:58 the show notes.

58:59 You guys can check that out.

59:00 We've got the Logos Bible software, but there are, there are guys like a tables just

59:03 like this all over the world right now that are following along with us as we are going

59:08 through and they're having their own discussion and then they're watching us kind of discuss

59:12 that, that same thing and they're having their own banter and they're talking about whatever,

59:16 you know, you know, specific to their particular group or all that.

59:19 So we highly, yeah, yeah, obviously they're all just talking about golf.

59:22 We're highly, um, we value that.

59:25 We value the feedback.

59:26 We are so thankful that you guys are taking this because that was the whole point of this

59:29 from the beginning.

59:30 It was not to who let's just create some more content.

59:32 It was a model for you guys to be like, okay, this is how dudes, real dudes, non professional

59:37 pastors, non theologians, you can just get around having put in the prep work to earn

59:42 a spot at their table where they could get together and discuss this.

59:45 So we're so glad that you guys are doing that with us.

59:48 So again, Genesis 33 and 34 for next week, but before I let you go around and do a quick

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1:00:43 Just go to www.undonton.life and as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing

1:00:48 us to use their music for our content.

1:00:49 The music on this podcast is their song Perpetua, which is off their self-titled debut album

1:00:54 on Face Down Records.

1:00:55 The links are in the description.

1:00:56 I'm your host, Kyle Thompson.

1:00:58 Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental and physical resilience.

1:01:05 Keep seeking the lion of Judah.

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