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0:30
(Music)
0:50
This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast.
0:53
I'm your host Kyle Thompson, let's get into it.
0:56
Welcome back to The Forging Table.
0:58
The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with content that
1:01
forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience.
1:04
At The Forging Table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience
1:07
by digging into God's Word.
1:08
And we're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with us.
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That's Ryan, that's Eric, that's Jake.
1:12
Guys, we are getting into Genesis 2.
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So it was a small miracle that we made it through Genesis 1 where nobody got hurt.
1:18
There was no blood.
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And again, it wasn't an exhaustive description of Genesis 1, but it also wasn't.
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Genesis 1 isn't an exhaustive description of what is talked about in Genesis 1.
1:27
But we are going to get a little bit more detail as we dig into Genesis 2 here.
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And what were you doing over here in my peripheral vision?
1:33
I think nobody got hurt.
1:34
What is going on?
1:35
Nobody got hurt last time.
1:36
You just pulled your pants down next to me last time.
1:38
Did that hurt you?
1:39
It did.
1:39
Did that hurt your poor little weak heart?
1:41
It hurt my eyes.
1:42
Yeah well.
1:42
We do have studio life center bouncing off of my wife's eye.
1:47
I was like, "Oh, is that a dog?"
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Shut up, Ryan, okay.
1:52
Would you trust a ginger with a tan?
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I certainly would.
1:57
I mean, your freckles could come together and make your own tattoo.
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Yeah, the times that I've prayed for the freckles to actually connect,
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so I could have like one giant tan spot on my body.
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But it's never actually happened.
2:09
It's not in the cards for me.
2:10
My wife's part ginger, so she gets it.
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Yeah.
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Her dad's like a redhead.
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And she's not, but she's part ginger.
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So does she burn or does she?
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She does burn and then freckles connect.
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What about you?
2:22
Are you a burner or do you get any tan on that?
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I get a tan.
2:24
I can look like a walnut.
2:26
Hairless body.
2:26
Yeah, I look like a walnut.
2:27
Wow.
2:28
A walnut?
2:29
Yeah.
2:30
You know, this is one of those.
2:32
There's a whole lot of rage you could describe yourselves.
2:35
Every time, Ryan's on the show, it just devolves.
2:38
At some point, the discussion devolves into walnuts,
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cologne, all kinds of stuff.
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By the way, what are you wearing today?
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Creed Viking.
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Creed Viking.
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I sprayed myself, bro.
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That just sounds cool.
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Two sprays?
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Shoo, bro.
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I ate.
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Whoo!
2:52
No, no, no, hey, wait.
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Hey, for those-- For people that are new to the show,
2:55
what is the proper process of putting all this on the show?
2:59
So here we go.
2:59
You spray both pecs.
3:01
Both pecs.
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You can sit there and shake your head,
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but nobody recognizes your essence.
3:06
Two sprays on the pec.
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Okay.
3:11
One spray on the back.
3:12
Got it.
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Two sprays on the wrist.
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Bam, bam.
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Tap, tap, tap, tap.
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The double tap, and then it becomes a quadruple tap,
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because you go tap, tap on the wrist.
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Describe it.
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Yeah, tap, tap.
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Tap, tap, tap on the side of your neck.
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Okay.
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So where your other--
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And you've got your essence today is Creed Viking,
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which I'm just going to say if Creed released, I can't,
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but if Creed releases a new album and it's not called Viking,
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I'm going to be really disappointed.
3:34
We talked about Dominion last time
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and didn't even bring up one of my favorite bands.
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What?
3:38
Who?
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John Cooper.
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And Skilla.
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Oh, the album Dominion?
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I listened to it the whole time I read that part.
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How-- you can read and listen to music at the same time?
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Yeah, I can.
3:46
It's amazing.
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Man, I can't--
3:47
Man of many towns.
3:49
I will tell you, there is--
3:50
there has been some sort of study about like--
3:52
if you're needing to do deep study or deep work of something,
3:56
that music actually aids that as long as there is no singing.
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Yeah, I usually listen to cello music.
4:02
Because yeah, because how we--
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how our brains respond to the stimulus of language,
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even if it's not our language,
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it just causes things where you can't really concentrate.
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So if you need like deep concentration,
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there's these and stuff like--
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Do you know there's like different names of noises?
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So everyone's heard of like white noise,
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but there's brown noise, green noise.
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I sleep to pink noise, which is like a particular--
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It's like a DEI noise.
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Like thing.
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Wow, shut up, man.
4:24
Like, but like there's--
4:26
but like I heard somewhere where like the frequency of pink noise
4:29
helps you stay in rim sleep longer or something.
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I don't know, but I downloaded a pink noise that they got me with it.
4:34
So, you know, it worked out.
4:35
So I don't know what this has to do with Genesis 2,
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but we're actually going to get into Genesis 2 now.
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So let's do--
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Ryan, how about you just keep talking
4:42
since you're just jawjacking over there?
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Hey, let's do the first three verses of Genesis 2.
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I can do it.
4:47
Your segue was better than you think, Kyle.
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You're talking about sleep and we're going to the day of rest.
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Shoot.
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All right, now here, the one thing that we need--
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here's the one thing that we were going to give correction
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to Ryan to you right from the beginning,
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because how Ryan holds his paper,
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this is what always happens is he stops in the middle of a sentence
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and then he has to flip it over to get to the next one.
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So what you're going to do is you're just going to be ready
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to flip right over without the pause.
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Ready?
5:11
Are you ready?
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Go.
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Thus, the heavens and the earth were finished
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and all the hosts of them.
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And on the seventh day, God finished his work that he had done,
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and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done.
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So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy because on it,
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God rested from all of his work that he had done in creation.
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Not great, but it is improved.
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So we're still a work in progress here.
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So obviously, we're talking about the Sabbath.
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It's OK.
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You're not that slow.
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But so when we're talking about rest,
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and I think we should have a discussion about the Sabbath here,
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because I think there's some confusion about Sabbath.
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And I mean that from me.
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I don't mean I hold the answers and I'm about to give it to you.
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But when I was reading through the MacArthur commentary,
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it's like, OK, obviously, God was not tired.
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Like, God was not so tired from everything
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he had done for six days that he needed a seventh day.
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He was helping kind of establish a pattern for human beings,
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because you have to look at what the text says,
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and you also have to look at what it doesn't say,
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because we have a five-day work week.
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That's kind of like our Westernized way of doing work.
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But work is described as a six-day endeavor
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where a day that we have-- because everyone focuses
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on the person that doesn't take a Sabbath, right?
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But there's very little focus on the people
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that don't work six days and don't get stuff done.
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You have people that are just working part-time,
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and I don't-- I'm not demeaning people that work part-time,
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but there's a lot here in the text.
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But there's something that came up for me.
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And I put it in the question of bang for ask a pastor,
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because somebody posed this and I was like, oh, shoot.
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I don't really know a good answer to that.
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So this is the Sabbath being modeled.
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There's old covenant, new covenant.
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And so when you listen to modern pastors,
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we'll say evangelical pastors talk about the Sabbath.
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It seems like half of them say, oh, yeah,
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the Sabbath is a relic of the old covenant.
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It's not something that we have to do.
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It's just a good idea if we do it.
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They talk about tithing the same way.
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And then there's the other half where they're like,
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no, no, no, the Sabbath is something
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that we can't really leave behind.
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So I'm just curious of all the 10 commandments.
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This is the one where modern pastors are like, oh, yeah.
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The rest of the 10 commandments hold those.
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But the Sabbath, yeah, that's an old covenant thing.
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So that was kind of a confusing thing
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that I didn't work my way all the way through.
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So I was curious for you guys if that came up
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or if you have some thoughts on it.
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- I mean, I don't think the Christian life is governed by rules.
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I mean, Christian freedoms doesn't say that there are no rules,
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but rather we shouldn't need them.
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And so I look at the Sabbath as something that a Christian
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should want to observe in the same way that,
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I mean, the more the day means to you,
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the more likely you are to give deference to it.
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So you think about a memorial day.
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You know, people who, you know, if you've lost someone
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that's very important to you,
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you generally go and visit their gravesite,
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bring them flowers, whatever.
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But if you haven't, you go to the lake
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or you're just taking the day off, independence day,
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veterans day, I mean, president's day.
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There's all sorts of things that we actually
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quote unquote celebrate as a holiday and observe it.
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But depending on how important it is to you,
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is how you behave on that day.
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I don't know why, I mean, so many of us
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are willing to do all of these different things
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for the holidays that are federal, that are worldly.
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But then the Sabbath, we can't give God his one day a week
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and actually observe that.
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So again, I don't think it's, is it something that you have to do?
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No, because we don't have rules under Christianity,
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but we should not need them.
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I think we have a hard time even getting to that point
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because we can't, just in our day-to-day work week,
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have enough time for solitude, period.
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Like what do we do when we have to wait in line?
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Do we pray?
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No, we go to our social media and spend that time
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filling it with something that is just brain deadening.
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So I don't even, I think it's, we should have this conversation,
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but I think people need to be able to be comfortably bored
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in their own lives where when they have nothing to do,
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their minds can start to drift towards God
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rather than mindless activities.
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So that just a thought like that.
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As you were saying that, there was a video,
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I thought someone did it was on Instagram or TikTok
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or something like that, but it was somebody that was,
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"Hey, what would it look like if we read our Bible
9:32
like we scroll social media?"
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And so the video is of the guy waking up
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and he turns over to his side and he opens up his Bible.
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Like the guy's sitting on the toilet,
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he's got his Bible open, the guy's waiting in line
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or he's waiting in a waiting room and he's got his Bible open
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and it's just like, "Ooh, yeah."
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In all those moments, that's when I'm like,
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"All right, let's see how my latest Instagram posted.
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All right, let's see who Jake Paul's gonna fight next.
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Let's just scroll to it or whatever, whatever the thing was."
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And so that is a very convicting thing for what do we do
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when we're in those moments of silence?
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Are we just filling it with something?
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Yeah, and I think about what are those moments
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supposed to be filled with, obviously thoughts of God,
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but one of the things that we do in our family
10:13
is we spend time having moments of gratitude,
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being encouragement, celebrating wins and then just celebrating God
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and how he's provided for us.
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And when we are unable to have time to actually reflect
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or we don't set apart that time, then it's difficult.
10:32
We just go through life and I think we miss out on a lot.
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So anyways, just kind of like,
10:39
there's the momentary acts of solitude.
10:43
There's the being able to think about things rather than just being,
10:48
it goes so many different paths.
10:50
People hear things and they just take it and they don't think about it.
10:54
They just believe it.
10:55
I think a lot of life is spent chewing on things,
11:02
reckoning with them and then deciding what or what not to believe.
11:06
And that comes on any level, but specifically with God.
11:10
I don't think are just reading a passage and then saying,
11:14
"I'm good and I'm a good Christian because I did that as enough."
11:17
Right? It's so much more.
11:18
I mean, that's kind of where my kids live now
11:20
and so I have to lead them into that, what that looks like.
11:23
And how do we chew or meditate on the word?
11:25
But it's left with their own devices.
11:27
They, meditation would be a byword, right?
11:30
So...
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I think when we look at it, we have to look at it as,
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we're fathers, right? We work.
11:35
And so when we're working, do we have time for our kids?
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Not directly.
11:42
Not if we're actually working.
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So I look at it as God is working, he's creating at this time.
11:48
And then Adam's created on the sixth day and he decides to rest.
11:52
And so what does he do usually?
11:53
You know, God is known to walk through the garden with Adam.
11:56
And so this is a time for Adam to commune with God
11:59
and God to commune with his creation on that Sabbath day.
12:04
So I think when it comes down to it, it's just,
12:07
how are we communing with God?
12:09
We have Sundays now to commune with God and we worship him
12:15
and we read his word and we try to commune with him.
12:17
We can commune in so many other ways.
12:19
Like you said, like sitting in the line,
12:20
how many times do I waste time on Facebook or whatever?
12:25
So how are we communing with him?
12:27
The other thing is when we look back at the Sabbath
12:30
and the Israelites and it being in the Ten Commandments,
12:33
we have to look at that that was a law built for the Israelites
12:37
and that was because they were coming out of Egypt
12:40
and God wanted them to recognize what he has done.
12:42
You can kind of put that under ceremonial law,
12:46
but I think it's a very particular law that we can't lose track of.
12:50
And the fact is like we moved it to Sundays.
12:52
We don't do Saturdays, but we moved it to Sundays
12:55
because Christ rose from the dead on a Sunday.
12:58
And so that's where we commune with God and we find that time.
13:02
So technically we are still keeping a Sabbath holy.
13:05
It's just not that day.
13:06
I do Saturdays.
13:08
What do you mean?
13:10
That's when I get my Sabbath.
13:12
Okay, you don't do anything?
13:13
No, I mean, do anything is kind of a lose.
13:16
I won't work in terms of my job.
13:20
Like I avoid my job on Saturdays.
13:24
And that's a good thing.
13:25
But like people avoid like turning the oven on the like 450.
13:29
Well, no, I'm not.
13:30
You know what I'm saying?
13:30
There's like a screenshot of your oven.
13:33
There's like a Sabbath setting on your oven.
13:35
I mean, I'm just cautious.
13:37
I guess I would say I'm cautious on saying it's not any certain.
13:40
I mean, there's people who literally their jobs
13:42
have to be on a Sunday or whatever.
13:44
And it's like the important thing to me
13:45
is that you're able to give one day a week over to the Lord
13:48
and say this is the day I'm communing with you.
13:51
Now, what does that mean?
13:52
Maybe it's I'm investing a lot more time in my family
13:56
and who I've been given dominion over
13:59
that I need to be able to pour into them the word of God
14:03
and that my children can look at me as like a dutiful father,
14:08
someone that they can look too spiritually
14:12
because he's in community with me on that day.
14:16
But if you also look at like the Hebrew word that they use,
14:19
I believe is Vaishbatt means to seize and abstain.
14:23
It doesn't mean to rest and sleep.
14:24
It just means to not do, you know?
14:27
Correct.
14:27
And so it's just like we're going to do something.
14:30
If we're going to commune with God,
14:31
we're going to that's doing something, you know?
14:33
But do you think maybe there's anything related to like,
14:36
you know, I think everybody kind of has some sort of gifting
14:39
that they can point to that God has given you
14:42
that has allowed you to carry out your career, your job,
14:46
you know, whatever you're doing for whatever.
14:48
God's given you some sort of gifting to do that.
14:51
To me, it's almost like I'm not using my gifting on that day
14:55
because I'm essentially thanking God for that gifting on that day.
14:59
All right.
14:59
It's like a day of recognition for that.
15:01
Yeah.
15:02
That's one thing that will truly humble you is we can all,
15:06
whether you're a coxure person or a naval gazer,
15:09
like we can all eventually recognize there are things
15:11
that we were given that we didn't create, right?
15:14
Some people just have a way with numbers.
15:17
Some people just have a way with people and, you know,
15:20
some people have a knack for sales.
15:23
Some people have a knack for how to use words.
15:25
And it's like people ask me all the time, you know,
15:29
not all the time.
15:29
I do get asked,
15:30
"Hey, before you go on and give a speech live,
15:32
are you nervous?"
15:33
And I go, "Man, not anymore."
15:34
Like, if I feel those butterflies, I immediately think,
15:37
"God, you gave me this ability,
15:40
and you can literally take all this away.
15:43
Like, now let's go do something cool."
15:44
Right?
15:45
So like, I'm going to do all the things I can do
15:47
and all the things that I can control,
15:49
which is my level of preparation and my level of content creation,
15:52
which I don't even have full control over
15:53
because where did those ideas come from?
15:55
As I'm developing this presentation,
15:57
they didn't just come from my superior brain, right?
15:59
God put those there as well.
16:01
And so when I'm going in about to deliver a speech
16:04
or something like that, it's like,
16:05
"God, you built me for this.
16:07
You built me for this.
16:08
Let's go do it."
16:09
And that doesn't mean that, you know,
16:11
I can control the inputs and God gets to control the outputs,
16:13
especially whenever the gospel is being preached.
16:15
And Ryan, I can just feel your smarm from my right.
16:19
What do you have to say before you move on?
16:21
I'm not saying anything.
16:21
What?
16:22
What?
16:22
No, you were like that.
16:23
You said that God puts that into your brain to do
16:26
because your brain can't figure it out.
16:27
Oh, is it like a Calvinist thing?
16:29
Like, "Oh God gave it to you."
16:30
Because you couldn't do it on yourself at all.
16:32
I'm just saying, keep proving my argument every time you talk.
16:35
All right, you have a two minute,
16:37
you're in the penalty box for two minutes.
16:38
So Eric Browning, if you will say,
16:40
"Yeah, two minutes, two minutes."
16:42
Okay, you're in the penalty box, two minutes, no talking.
16:45
Two minutes, no talking.
16:46
All right, Browning.
16:47
Let's do fourth through 17.
16:49
Let's get into kind of a recasting of what we saw
16:52
in Genesis 1, the creation of man and woman, fourth through 17.
16:56
These are the generations of the heavens
16:59
and the earth when they were created.
17:01
In the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.
17:04
When no bush of the field was yet in the land
17:08
and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up,
17:11
for the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the land.
17:14
And there was no man to work the ground.
17:16
And a mist was going up from the land
17:19
and was watering the whole face of the ground.
17:21
Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground
17:24
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life.
17:27
And the man became a living creature.
17:31
And the Lord God planted a garden and Eden in the east.
17:34
And there he put the man whom he had formed.
17:38
And out of the ground, the Lord God made to spring up
17:40
every tree that is pleasant to the site and good for food.
17:44
The tree of life was in the midst of the garden
17:47
and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
17:50
A river flowed out of Eden to water the garden.
17:53
And there it divided and became four rivers.
17:56
The name of the first is the Pishon.
17:59
It is the one that flowed around the whole land of Havala,
18:02
where there is gold.
18:04
And the gold of that land is good.
18:06
The dillom and onyx stone are there.
18:09
The name of the second river is Gihon.
18:11
It is the one that flowed around the whole land of Kush.
18:15
And the name of the third river is the Tigris,
18:19
which flows east of Assyria.
18:21
And the fourth river is the Euphrates.
18:24
The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work.
18:29
It and keep it.
18:30
And the Lord God can stop real quick.
18:34
I didn't know where I wanted to go.
18:38
Okay, go to 17.
18:39
I'm sorry.
18:40
My apologies.
18:40
The Lord God commanded the man saying,
18:43
"You may surely eat of every tree of the garden,
18:46
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,
18:49
you shall not eat.
18:50
For in the day that you eat of it, you shall surely die."
18:54
My apologies didn't mean to interrupt you at a note wrong here.
18:57
Thank you for going through 17.
18:59
So the thing that I want to get into here was really in verse 7,
19:03
then the Lord God formed the man of the dust from the ground
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and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life.
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And the man became a living creature.
19:10
So I think there's a lot that we can discuss here.
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So a lot of kind of men's ministry things have really pointed to this.
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Like why do we go out and camp and why do we do all that things?
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Because we are of the dirt, right?
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And so like God made us from the dirt.
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Let's go back to the dirt, that type of thing.
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And I see why you would do that.
19:26
But someone who's maybe grown up in Manhattan their entire life
19:28
hasn't really, didn't even go to like Central Park.
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They aren't really familiar with that.
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Nature may not have the same connection to them.
19:34
So I'm sensitive to it.
19:36
But I know that that Joby's talked a lot about this about in this moment,
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the Ruach of life.
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So are you A.C.H., the Hebrew word, the Ruach of life was breathed into Adam.
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And so that word means wind or breath or spirit.
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And so if we go back to Genesis 1, 2, the spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
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The Hebrew word underneath that is Ruach Elohim, okay?
19:59
So that's a name for God.
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And it's basically the Holy Spirit was given to him in this moment.
20:06
As I was going through this, when do Christians get the Holy Spirit, right?
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Yeah, I think Pentecost, the Holy Spirit is given to Christianity,
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writ large as a gift.
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But then when we become Christians, whenever that is,
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whenever it just happens or whenever we make the decision, whatever,
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we get the Holy Spirit at that moment.
20:25
So is it theologically correct?
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This is an honest question.
20:29
Is it theologically correct to assume in this moment that Adam became saved?
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As it were, because God literally at the creation of Adam,
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breathed into a sinless being that he had created, right?
20:41
Because Adam was sinless, right?
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In that moment, is he is he saved?
20:45
Because he has the Holy Spirit from the beginning?
20:47
Or maybe am I drawing too many different conclusions?
20:49
What is he being saved from?
20:51
Yeah, because there was no sin yet, no brokenness.
20:55
You know, I think about the there's a tribe in New Zealand called the Mayori tribe.
20:59
They have a beautiful greeting that they do, and it's called the "hungy."
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And in the "hungy," they bring you close and your foreheads touch and your noses touch,
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and you exchange breath.
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Let's do it right now, right?
21:12
Let's do it.
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Come on, man.
21:13
Come on.
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Oh, so exchange breath.
21:20
You recognize my essence?
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It's creed-viking, baby.
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But you think...
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God, that was like the probably the gayest thing I've ever done in my life.
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That's right, right here on the fortress table.
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But go ahead and make your amazing point.
21:35
No, no, no, no.
21:36
You know, just think about the beauty of that picture.
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If that's how God did it, don't know that he did,
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had the man form, the man is laying down,
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and God literally just almost lays on top of him,
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brings his forehead to his forehead, and knows there's no assuming God has those body parts,
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and then breathes into him his life.
21:54
I love that picture.
21:56
But we see in this text here, and dude, that Jordan Peterson's obsessed with this idea that
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prior to the fall, God and Adam would go for walks in the garden.
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And so there seems to be a physical manifestation of God with Adam in terms of their connection.
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So like the forehead, nose, breath of life connection seems like there is an incarnate form of that.
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It would make sense.
22:18
Sure, yeah, yeah.
22:19
Other thoughts?
22:20
I do find it, I don't know, the creation of Adam is even a...
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Just the obvious need, I mean even God himself just saw this need for companionship even for himself.
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Yeah.
22:34
I mean, so...
22:36
So into communion with?
22:38
Yeah, like, I mean, just this idea of, I mean, so many people trying to
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loan Wolf life or whatever that might be, I mean, the requirement you have for companionship,
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I mean, even God recognized it in and himself that he wanted someone to communion with.
22:54
I have to, or go ahead, Aaron.
22:55
No, I was just going to say a need, it seems like a...
22:59
Maybe tricky word, like he didn't need anything.
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He had a desire, it was a will to want fellowship.
23:06
Fair enough.
23:06
So two potentially controversial thoughts, but as you know, I like kind of bringing up things
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that are just kind of like, not always like parallel universe scenarios.
23:16
But number one, yeah, Ryan, I know that drives you absolutely insane, but here it is.
23:20
So do we know, or do we have any indication from the text that Adam was created with age?
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Because the Ruok of life and his creation, he could have been brought into the form
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as a newborn baby.
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I think, again, young earthers kind of will say, well, Adam was created with age,
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so why couldn't the earth be created with age?
23:35
It's like, you can't exactly know that.
23:38
And now that's not nearly as controversial as the next thing I'm going to say,
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but it is something that I've thought about.
23:43
So when you look at the evolutionary record and the fossil record and all that,
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and you know, the creation of man, you know, from primordial slime all the way up through
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chimp and all the way up through, you know, bipedal man, that type of thing,
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is it even possible?
23:59
I've heard this posited guys.
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I'm not a pagan.
24:02
I'm not a heretic.
24:03
That's just something that I thought through was one of the created animals, a chimp.
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And then the chimp who had no sentience and no consciousness or any of those types of things,
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did God take a male chimp forehead to nose, breathe a Ruok of life into that, into that chimp,
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and then all of a sudden the chimp became sentient, became man.
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And from there, we have the biological separation of, you know, you know, evolutionary cousins.
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It seems like the, it seems like the chimp would have been made before this with all the other animals.
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All the other animals in the land and not, and that this seems like it's a separate event.
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Because he was created from dirt.
24:46
He wasn't created from a chimp and then buried in the dirt.
24:49
Well, how were the animals created?
24:50
It also says they were created from, from the earth.
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That just sounded like his word.
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He just said let there be.
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Yeah.
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I'm not saying I believe that, by the way.
24:57
No, no, I'm not saying you do.
24:58
I mean, no, I'm just saying like, I don't know, like,
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got created and he probably could create us and then also create a chimpanzee
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using the same form of what he did, you know.
25:11
So it's like, yeah, we're going to have some characteristics,
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but you don't see any chimpanzees now with any sentience or any chimpanzees evolving into human beings.
25:20
Yeah, the issue I have with evolution just, I mean, it still, it stems back to creation itself.
25:26
What existed first, the laws of evolution or the universe?
25:31
Because if, I mean, I don't know how the laws of evolution could actually
25:34
exist without a universe in which they're partaking, but if God is creating the universe
25:39
in and of itself, then essentially God would create any sort of quote unquote evolutionary
25:44
process, which we still do not see today.
25:47
I mean, there's, you know, we hear single cell organisms.
25:50
We never see here about a two cell organism or a three cell organism.
25:55
So you don't really see any of this process.
25:57
I mean, unless God has interceded and say, okay, now evolution's done, we still see adaptation,
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but I don't think we really see evolution.
26:05
So I mean, I guess I'm kind of going back to the chimp argument.
26:08
You know, if, if Adam came from a chimp, I mean, that would still require some sort of evolution
26:15
on the chimpanzees part to be towards his image.
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And I think that's the other thing he's made in his image.
26:20
Right. What is the, what is the atheist answer to if we evolve from chimps, then why are there still chimps?
26:26
Because I've heard Christians pause at that, but I haven't heard a good atheist response.
26:30
Have you all know, no, because with evolution, you leave behind the,
26:34
the, the bad genes or the, the non evolved or the worst form, right?
26:42
You don't have, you know, slug 2.0 and then slug 1.0 is still kind of hanging around.
26:47
Slug 1.0 is now defunct.
26:49
Like that's, that's the oldest blockbuster.
26:51
Anything?
26:52
Nothing. Well, yeah, I don't, I don't know. Other than maybe the chimp was so close to what
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humans are today that maybe they were able to survive. I don't know. I don't have a good answer
27:03
to that. But like that's different than a single cell organism or the whatnot that maybe had a
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millions and millions of versions to go before it got to man, you know.
27:15
Right. Okay. On the, the last thing on this section that I wanted to really talk about is
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really verse 16 and the Lord commanded the man saying you may surely eat of the tree of the garden
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into the 17, but the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat for in the day.
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You eat of it. You shall surely die. This, you know, kind of alludes to something or
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foreshadow is what we see in Genesis three. The command is given to man.
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Okay. So who holds the most responsibility for following through on that command?
27:42
Man does. Right. And so there's no shirking of responsibility. And there's also no sharing
27:47
of this responsibility because it's who the command was given to. So four year old son and
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two year old son, I will tell my four year old son to do something. And if the two year old son
27:57
doesn't abide by that directly, the two year old son is not getting the same level of punishment
28:02
as my four year old son, because I didn't give the two year old son the command. I gave my four
28:05
year old son the command. And if my four year old son tries to appeal to, but dad, the little
28:10
brother did this, that is not a sufficient response or argument that dad will actually take seriously.
28:16
So I thought that that was very interesting because obviously how many times have we read that,
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but it's like, no, that's the mandate. Another thing I find interesting about that is how loving
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God is with that command. Like he gives the command of, this is what you shall eat. You know,
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like he's not coming down and say, don't eat this. Do not eat it. He's like, Hey,
28:32
eat of all these other trees. Just don't eat of this one. This one, because if you eat from
28:37
this, you'll surely die. It's just like, I don't know, it just seems more of a loving way rather
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than a father who is just trying to say, Hey, this is the rules. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
28:46
A good point with that too, Ryan, I forget what commentary I was reading, but they were like,
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there's nothing from the text to suggest that there was anything visibly different about this
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tree. It wasn't as if this tree was like glowing or at the top of the hill. And so it's always up
29:01
there just kind of staring down at you, creating this extra level of temptation. It was just another
29:06
tree, a tree that went by a different name that could give you something different. And so it was
29:10
just another tree that was in the garden. And so it would have been easier for the accuser,
29:16
for the serpent, for Lucifer to tempt you with the golden shining tree that has diamonds that you
29:23
could eat that are on the branches or something like that. So there was nothing especially attractive
29:28
about the tree other than what God told you the tree could do. Yeah. And I think the most
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loving thing God ever did was actually put that tree in the garden. It really was. I mean,
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because people will say, well, why would he even put that there? Why would he tempt them in that way?
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Well, and it's because at that moment, the Adam and Eve had the choice, had a choice to actually
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love God or reject him. Free will. Watch out. We'll go right. We'll be on that.
29:57
Watch out. But I mean, I mean, I mean, literally think about it. If that tree is not in the garden,
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okay, Adam and Eve are created and literally have no other choice, but to be obedient to God and
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to love him, just like, just like, I mean, just like our own children, okay, we lay down rules for
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them. And we say, you can, you can, you can, you can, you can't. And they have a choice in those
30:24
moments to be obedient or to not does that lack of obedience negate like, do we no longer love them
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because that lack of obedience? Of course not. We still love our children. And we try and put them
30:38
back on the right path. It's the same way that God is working here. You have an opportunity to obey
30:43
me or to disobey me. And in that moment, you disobey me, I'm going to punish you. But I still love you.
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I think it's funny if you think about it, it's like, God, do this was going to happen from the
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beginning. Like, it's just like, and we, we set these rules for our kids, like, don't do this.
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You can do this, but don't do that. But we know they're going to break it. Like, we just know
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they're going to break it. Like, I look at them almost like, I don't even know why I'm bringing
31:06
this up because I'm not going to break it. But I mean, but that's it. If we look at it, like,
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God already knew, like, I mean, that's where the, that's where the Trinity came in, where he says,
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well, this make us in our, in our image and Christ and God knew it that in his son formation that
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I'm going to have to come back down to that earth because they're going to, they're going to eat
31:23
of that tree. But the other thing of the trees that I want to point out too is that the tree of life
31:27
is planted there as well. So that shows that God, that we weren't made to be immortal,
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that we had to eat from the tree of life to stay alive.
31:34
Well, and that tree is unique too. I was, I was trying to work with it a long time.
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But we were created to be immortal. Our bodies, our bodies where we need sustenance.
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Yeah. Our bodies weren't created to be immortal. Like our physical bodies.
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Self-sustaining. Self-sustaining. It wasn't meant to be something.
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Not spiritual. Like so our spiritual consciousness is immortal.
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And the fact that like when we die, we were to commune with God.
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But the body. But the body.
32:00
Different substance needs sustenance from outside of itself.
32:02
So the tree of life creates them and keeps you alive.
32:05
All right. So got it.
32:07
Yeah, I was, I was just going back and it's just got to move point. But the, the, the two trees,
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I mean, the tree of life and the new creation in Revelation 22 seems to be pretty darn unique.
32:16
I mean, it's got 12 different kinds of fruit. You'll get those fruits each month and what not.
32:20
So I would imagine that in the garden, it was probably similar. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't.
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But it seemed like it would be set apart if it was producing 12 different kinds of fruit.
32:29
So it makes me wonder if the, the other one was set. Maybe it was different.
32:34
Certainly.
32:34
Who knows? I don't, I don't know.
32:35
Right.
32:36
But okay. Let's get into this last section here. So please.
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Can I make one point? Let's go.
32:41
Because I don't want to go, I don't want to go past this. In verse 15, it talks about work,
32:45
right? So I just, just to make a point about work that work, there's dignity in work.
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And that it's part of the created order and the command of God.
32:56
And so work is a good thing. It's not a bad thing. It's not something, you know,
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we've talked about this before, I'm sure, but like it did not come after the fall as some sort of
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curse. You know, it's something that God gave us to do and something we can look
33:06
forward to do in the new kingdom of heaven.
33:09
So we're going to work in heaven.
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I mean, it's, we, we, you're going to have to do tax returns in heaven.
33:14
That sounds fair.
33:15
I hope not, but we're going to work. But see, I, we're going to worship the way that, well,
33:19
but there we will work. I mean, it's just the thing is, I don't know, I look at this very much,
33:28
like everybody has a part of their job that they just love. They're just like, when I get to do
33:34
this, I really enjoy it. And then there's a whole bunch of things about your job that you just
33:39
don't like at all. And you go, man, I have to do this. That's our toil. But the things that we
33:46
actually really love to do, I actually think that's our gifting. And that's, that's the thing that
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we are put here to do. And I think in a lot of ways, the kind of work that we will do in heaven
33:57
resembles the type of work that we do where we are absolutely required to do this, but
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there is sheer joy in the work that we get to do in that moment.
34:05
But if we look at the work of Adam, probably in Genesis and as we read through it, it's like
34:11
he's naming animals. He's picking out food. He's walking with God. Like that's kind of the work
34:16
that he's doing because he doesn't, he didn't grow any of these trees. He didn't plant the trees.
34:21
They got brought them up. So everything that they had was brought up to them. Like they didn't
34:26
create any of it. He's harvesting though. Yeah. He's harvesting. But now when you think about it,
34:31
if we go back to the fall, if we talk about work, he's now having to cultivate. You ever
34:35
worked to harvest? You ever worked to harvest? I'm sure it's worth. I see. Nope. He's never
34:41
worked to harvest. Soft his hands in America. But what I'm saying is like, that's the point
34:47
of it is that God's no longer going to take care of the growing of the fruit. You know, now you have
34:54
to not, not only do you have to harvest it, you have to cultivate it. Yeah. So which is more work?
34:59
It is. Yeah. I think about there's a book written by J.R. Tolkien during no. Never heard of it.
35:06
During World War II called Leaf by Niggle. I have that book. What's it called? It's called Leaf by
35:11
Niggle. It's good. Hey, let's take over this. My fault. I got really super excited. I really
35:17
liked that book. I can feel his essence getting excited. Yeah. So fill in the links where I lose
35:21
this. But you know, the essence is a guy is trying to do this painting. He's painting these leaves.
35:27
Every time he goes to his work, he gets interrupted by somebody or something and he likes to help.
35:33
So he goes and help and he anybody's thinking like, I really want to get that tree done,
35:37
that painting of that tree done. So he goes back, finally, he's like, okay,
35:41
when he reveals his painting, starts working again, knock, knock, knock. And it happens over
35:45
and over again. Eventually, someone comes and says, we're taking you away. This was, I think,
35:50
symbolic of people being taken from their homes and in prison camps or whatnot. Anyways.
35:55
So he's taken away to a place he doesn't know and he's on a train and an amount of time passes.
36:00
He doesn't know. Maybe he falls asleep. Maybe he doesn't. I think it's symbolic of him dying.
36:04
But anyways, he wakes up and he's on the train in a mountainous area and he comes around a corner
36:10
and he sees something very familiar to him and realizes, wait a second, that's my tree. Those
36:15
are my leaves and realizes that they're perfect and they're done and they're complete. And it's
36:20
extremely satisfying to him in that moment. I think that the point of that that he's trying to get at
36:25
is that in life, because of the fall and then we'll get that to that later, all of our work will
36:31
have thorns that will grow up into what we do. We will always be unsatisfied because we, in some
36:36
respect, because we can't do exactly what we want to do, can't get done fully. But someday,
36:42
God will allow us to fully enjoy our work and to be completely satisfied in him doing what he
36:49
wills for us to do. Which is a great thing that you brought up because I actually learned about
36:54
that book, Reading Tim Keller's Every Good Endeavor. Oh yeah. And so the first prologue of that, he's
36:59
giving you a rundown of "Leaf by Nickel." And I was like, oh man, so I went and bought the book
37:05
on Amazon. It's a really quick read and 30-minute read. But it was the way that he set it up through
37:13
this thing. It's such a perfect example. Well, as you were saying that, I got on Amazon and I bought
37:18
"Tales from the Paralless Realm," which are four of Tolkien's novellas with a bunch of other stuff
37:24
and hardcover. And there's a dragon on the cover. Let's get ready for Genesis 3, y'all. But hey,
37:28
before we get there, before we get there, Mr. Winkler, let's go ahead and round out our reading of Genesis
37:33
2. Go ahead and do verse 18 through the end, which is verse 25. "Then the Lord God said,
37:41
'It is not good that man should be alone. I will make him a helper fit for him.'" Now, out of the
37:47
ground, the Lord had formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought
37:52
them to the man to see what he would call them. Whatever the man called every living creature,
37:57
that was its name. The man gave all names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens
38:03
and to every beast of the field. But for Adam, there was not found a helper fit for him.
38:08
So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man. And while he slept, took one of his ribs
38:15
and closed up its place with flesh. And the rib that the Lord God had taken from the man,
38:21
he made into a woman and brought her to the man. Then the man said, "This at last is bone of my bones
38:28
and flesh of my flesh. She shall be called woman because she was taken out of man. Therefore,
38:36
a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife. And they shall become one
38:42
flesh. And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed."
38:47
So I was, I don't find this to be coincidental at all, but as I was studying this week and I was,
38:55
you know, scrolling social media, I saw a video pop up from The Bible Show. So it's called The
39:00
Bible Show on TikTok. I don't know what the guy's name is. But he had a quote where he was talking
39:04
about Genesis 3. And I saved the video and immediately sent it to you guys because I was like,
39:09
how basically, how has this been here the entire time? And I never drew this connection. And so
39:14
I forget, it may have been you. You said like, there's always stuff hidden in the scriptures that
39:19
is just revealed to us in due time or we make the connection in due time. So I did my best to,
39:24
this isn't like a word for word or what the guy on The Bible Show said, but it is a thought for thought
39:28
of what he said. That God didn't just repeat the process to create Eve like he did with Adam.
39:36
God took a sinless man, Adam, put him in a deep sleep, sleep that was like death, wounded his side
39:44
and out of that bloody wounding, he takes a substance by which he forms the woman.
39:49
God raises the sinless and wounded man in a garden and then presents him with a bride.
39:56
And he's like, this story anticipates the gospel because you have Jesus that was wounded on his side,
40:04
that he was put to death. He was reawakened, resurrected by God. And he was given his bride,
40:10
which is his church. And he is coming back for her at a date that no one can know regardless of
40:15
how big your YouTube channel is. And so that is, I just remember listening to that and I go,
40:21
wait a minute, he didn't just wait, no. And then I went back and re or re listened to or rewatched
40:26
it. And I was like, holy crap, yes, it's been there the entire time. Why would they wound the side?
40:33
Oh, well, that's just what Roman soldiers did to check on it. Is that the only reason?
40:37
Because the Romans knew that that was a way to where you could pierce the heart up under the ribcage
40:41
to tell if the person was just faking it or if they were actually dead. And I was just like, man,
40:46
I was blown away by that because how many times do you hear this preached or read it yourself and go
40:50
like, Oh, well, that's just how woman was created. Isn't that interesting? And then you can get into
40:54
the word ribs and you know, rib actually means side. So it's, it's a helpmate that's fit for him
41:00
because it's from his ribs. So if you put that there, it's fitting into him and all that,
41:04
but it's so much deeper than I ever thought it could be.
41:06
I mean, I never thought of this before until I was reading it. But when I thought about a rib
41:11
in the bone, like we were made of dirt, but our wives were made of our rib. And I went back to
41:18
like first Peter three in the same way you wives, we subject to your husband so that even if any of
41:23
them disobedient to the word, they may be won over without the without a word by behavior of their
41:28
wives as they observe your pure and respectful behavior, your dormant must not be merely the
41:35
external Brady. Oh, well, I don't want to know if I want to go that far. It's all good. We'll do it
41:41
live. Hey, we can't get them to edit that out. Can't wait out too far. But basically, but basically
41:47
in first Peter three, it says, husbands treat your wives with respect as they are the weaker vessel.
41:54
And I'm always, we always understood that weaker vessel meant like porcelain or something like that.
41:58
But like compared to sand, a bone is a weaker vessel. And she came from our bone, which is easily
42:04
breakable compared to sand. And so it just made me realize that like, man, even God in his infinite
42:10
being of creating our counterpart created her from the most weakest vessel. You know, so I thought
42:18
it was, I thought it was pretty good. There's some significance to the rib here. I mean,
42:23
it's, I mean, I think it's interesting that wasn't taken from our head. Yep. So the idea that, you
42:28
know, that we're not subservient to them, so not above us, we're taken from our feet or lower
42:33
extremities, because they're not below us, taken from our side, which means they are an equal. But
42:40
I think it's also interesting that it's rib is under our arm, essentially, they're to be protected.
42:48
Also, the rib is close to our heart, so they should be loved. But I think on the flip side of that
42:54
woman, you came from a rib, okay, a rib protects the heart of the person. And there are also
43:05
some of the hardest working bones. Every breath, they are moving back and forth.
43:11
And you know that if you have had a rib injury, you know that very well.
43:15
And there are also a point of attachment for some of the most essential muscles in the chest.
43:19
So if you kind of look at it from, okay, for women, it's, you know, my wife and I were talking
43:24
about this last night for a woman, it's like, yeah, I am there as a man. My role is to protect my rib
43:30
and to love my rib. I mean, essentially, that's what she is. And she's there essentially, on the
43:37
other side, protecting my heart in a very real way that, you know, whose words pierce a husband
43:45
more than his wife. And so that ability to protect her heart, but also just knowing that
43:52
she's always working, but in a very real way, she's always working essentially for her husband
43:58
because she's moving up and down left and right with every breath that he takes.
44:03
Well, and he seems so awestruck to you by this creation too. So it's not like,
44:07
ah, finally, I've got someone I can tell what to tell what to do and work for me, right?
44:14
Yeah. It's not that.
44:16
I've been hungry for days.
44:18
Don't cook me some food or what? I don't have to pick the fruit anymore.
44:22
This is amazing. Go harvest.
44:24
And we see this as well. So this does get this passage does get into a discussion about marriage
44:32
because verse 24, therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife
44:36
and they shall become one flesh and the man and the wife were both naked and were not ashamed.
44:40
This is a description of the first marriage, but the word marriage is not used here. And so when
44:44
you, especially in a modern context, whenever you will have atheists or leftists or liberals,
44:50
but I repeat myself, they all basically say that, you know, marriage is between any two consenting
44:56
adults. Like that's what marriage is. And then a Christian will say, well, no, we don't get to
45:00
colloquially or culturally define what marriage is. God gets to, and we point to Genesis 2 verse 24,
45:06
but people would be like, the word marriage is even used there. The Hebrew word does not like
45:10
translate into marriage or different things. I've heard a lot of those arguments. And I've also
45:14
heard the argument of guys marriage precedes Christianity. Well, part of Christianity is the
45:21
belief in Genesis one and two where man is described as being created. You can't have a marriage
45:26
between a male human species and a female human species. If you don't describe where they came from,
45:33
right? Because again, if we're just highly evolved chimps, when did the first marriage,
45:37
you're like, where was the first marriage contact contract per se? They can't say,
45:41
but I have heard that talked about a lot and bandied about a lot. And again, we don't have to give
45:46
a fool proof for this because some people are just going to believe it and some people just
45:50
aren't. Some people are given the belief or they are not given that belief.
45:53
Or what have y'all seen in the Bible? Whatever you believe. Hey, relax, chill out over there.
45:58
But like, where have you guys kind of come up or kind of come up across that marriage argument?
46:04
Here's how I look at it. If we look at, even though marriage isn't used in there,
46:08
like that's what the union is considered because Christ goes back in through, I believe Matthew 19,
46:14
when they're talking about divorce and divorce happens to undo a marriage, he quotes this exact
46:20
verse. So that's where I'm just like, yeah, you can try to finagle words. Like they want to finagle
46:27
in regards to sexual immorality. Right, right. The word abortion is not a Bible either. It's like,
46:33
okay, neither is the word Trinity, but we still most believe that, you know. So it's just like
46:38
with pornography, they want to say like, you know, pornia meant this. And it's just like,
46:42
in the Hebrew language, there's so many words. That means so many different things. But like,
46:47
even in our language, the same words that were used in the 1940s aren't used the same way now.
46:52
I would go to the, what I generally will say is, you know, kind of goes, and I think I heard
46:59
this on one of the previous podcasts with one of your interviews, religion, religion didn't become
47:04
political politics became religious. Yeah, that was Josh Hougherton and Joe B. Martin both. It's like,
47:09
hey, when, when, when culture becomes theological, now you're in my lane. So you can tell everyone
47:15
to stay in their lane, but until you veer into my lane, now I got a response.
47:18
So, so the, you know, generally the arguments that you will hear for why we need to allow marriage
47:23
between to a consenting adult or whatever, the argument is is like, well, they need this right,
47:28
this right, this right, this right. And it's like, okay, well, let's get, you know, for example,
47:33
you know, CPA tax guy, or not, I'm not a tax guy, but CPA and the idea that, okay, well,
47:40
I can inherit my spouse's wealth without paying the inherent, you know, without paying the estate
47:46
tax. And so I don't get taxed on any of that. Well, that for married couples, there is no taxation
47:52
for a non married couple, there is. But how about this? Would any of those individuals be married
48:01
if government had no place in marriage? And the answer is no. Whereas would Christian still be
48:09
married if government had no place in marriage? Right. The answer is absolutely yes. That's where
48:14
I'm like, oh, you want the government to stay out of your marriage? I agree. Yes. Right. I don't
48:18
think the government can recognize something, but they can't create it. That's it. And that's
48:21
what happened. Like, if we look at hospitals now, like hospitals were created by churches,
48:26
like we had both our kids at Mercy, which is a Catholic hospital, even though it's run by a
48:31
corporation now, but they will not do, um, tubal, tubal ligations or whatever you want to call them.
48:36
They won't tie tubes. They won't do anything that has to do with a contraception. And we allow that
48:41
to happen because that's based upon their beliefs, but the government ends up taking over those
48:45
hospitals because now let's say somebody who's not a Christian wants an abortion in that hospital.
48:50
Well, the fact that you're not giving them this federal, right? Because now they're messing with,
48:55
they've made it federal. So now they have to go about and do those things. But still,
48:59
when it comes to those two things that we have to go to Baptist just to have our kids so we can
49:03
be able to have a contraception. So it's just like, it's just the government inserts itself
49:08
into so many things. And then everybody just culturally goes along with it and was like, well,
49:13
you can't do this or you can't do that. And it's just like, one, a lot of their arguments fall
49:17
apart because they're like, the argument will be, well, two men should be able to get married or
49:21
two women should be able to get to get married. And it's like, sorry, what is a man? What is a
49:26
woman? Oh, well, you know, it's anyone who thinks they are that way. Wait a minute. Wait a minute.
49:30
Like you're advocating for something that no one advocated for until about 17 seconds ago.
49:36
And that is for someone that is not a male and a female, not a male and a female pair to be able
49:40
to get together, then you get into, uh, throttles and you get into all these other different areas.
49:44
It's like, this all falls apart fairly quickly. So guys, Genesis two, there's still more that
49:49
can be said, but we're actually going to leave it there because I think I got a sneaking suspicion.
49:52
We're going to go along on Genesis three. So guys, make sure you are read through the end
49:56
of Genesis three for next week. But before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience
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you