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This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast.
0:54
I'm your host Kyle Thompson.
0:56
Let's get into it.
0:57
Welcome back to The Forging Table.
0:58
The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with content that
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forges spiritual mental and physical resilience.
1:04
At The Forging Table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience
1:07
by digging into God's word, and we're welcoming all of you to come along on the journey with
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us.
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That's Howard.
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That's Ryan.
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That's Zach.
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Guys, we're digging into Genesis 19 today, so there's been a lot of kind of run-up to
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the things that we see in Genesis 19, and there's quite a bit to discuss with it, so we're
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going to launch right in Howard.
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If you would get us read on verses 1 through 11, and did we convince you in the break
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to switch to ESV, because you kept losing us in the NIV?
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I believe I did.
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You think we can have him?
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I think you answered the message.
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I did go to ESV.
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Ooh, yeah, let's read it in the message so we can know not what the Scripture says.
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Whoa, say anything about homosexuality.
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Yeah, we can know that.
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I didn't download the message, so sorry.
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Oh, shoot.
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That's a good thing.
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All right.
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The two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and a lot was sitting at the gate of Sodom.
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When a lot saw them, he arose to meet them, and bowed before himself to the face to the
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earth, and said, "My Lord, please turn aside to your servant's house, and spend the night
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and wash your feet."
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Then you may rise up early and go on your way.
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He said, "No, we will spend the night in the town square," but he pressed them strongly,
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so they turned aside to him, and they entered his house, and he made them a feast and baked
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unleavened bread, and they ate, but before they lay down the men of the city, the men
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of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man surrounded the house, and
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they called to lot.
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Where are the men that came to you tonight?
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Bring them out to us so that we may know them.
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Lot went out to the men at the entrance, shut the door after him, and said, "I beg you,
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brothers, do not act so wickedly.
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Behold, I have two daughters who have not known any man.
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Let me bring them out to you, and due to them as you please, only do nothing to these men,
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for they have come under the shelter of my roof."
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But they said, "Stand back," and they said, "This fellow came to sojourn, and he has become
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the judge.
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Now we will deal worse with you than with them."
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Then they pressed hard against the man, lot and drew near to break the door down, but the
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men reached out their hands and brought them in, brought a lot into the house with them
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and shut the door, and they struck them with blindness, and the men were at the entrance
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of the house, both small and great, so that they wore themselves out, groping for the
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door.
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So there's a lot in this first section, and I've got to be really honest.
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I read through some commentaries, and I feel like I got more confused with some of the things
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that were happening during this commentary.
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One thing that I was not confused by, which was what exactly were these men wanting when
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they were at the door, because as we were talking about during the break, there were
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people who were like, "Well, I don't think they're talking about homosexuality.
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I don't think they're talking about sodomy."
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It's a nuance to the post.
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It's very nuanced.
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Yeah.
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That's every time someone uses the word nuance.
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That's how I assume they're saying.
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It's very nuanced.
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That's done.
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It's just a lot of gray.
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You know?
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Very laughing.
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I don't understand.
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So yeah, that's not very confusing here in all this.
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But there's one thing here that is something I haven't seen a lot of people comment on,
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and so maybe I'm reading into it a little bit more, thinking about it too much.
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But originally, a lot was going to move his tent near Sodom, but he was never actually
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going to be a part of the city, that he was going to be near the city, but not in the
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city.
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But we can see from verse three that he has a house in the city now, so they did not go
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to his place, which was on the outskirts and the suburbs of Sodom, he's in Sodom proper.
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And so part of this we've seen is the closer you get to an urban city center, the more lawless
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it gets, the less Christian it gets, the more issues you have with crime, single motherhood,
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abortion, fatherlessness, basically things get worse.
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But then the further you get away from those centers, which are politically blue, all of
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them, the more you get towards whether it's real or not, but you get more towards a particular
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type of faith, you're more conservative in your political leanings.
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And so that was interesting to me, because this is almost like a, and again, I'm trying
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not to read stuff into the text, but it's like a lot seems to have been romanced from
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outside the city and to inside the city, and it kind of become one with the city that we
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see going back to Genesis 13.
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This is a depraved place full of wicked, wicked people.
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Any thoughts there?
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Yeah.
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I mean, I think the thing that I saw in Red and several of the commentary is that lots
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of life was a steady progression of compromise, right?
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On the outside of the city, he kind of is romancing about the goodness at well, because
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he moves a little bit closer and then he moves a little bit.
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Now he's in the city and from some things I read, he was a leader in the city.
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That's why he was at the city gates.
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And so, you know, he's, he's fully in now.
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I wonder if he also went into the city for safety and the fact that when he was kidnapped
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by the other kings, he was, his tent was more than likely on the outside of the city.
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And so now he's like, all right, well, I'm going to go back to Sodom, but I'm going
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to be more safer within the walls of Sodom.
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It said somewhere where I read that if you have a place like he does inside of the city,
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it probably indicates that you may have a role or a position within the city also.
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So it's more than just being around.
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You're part of the system.
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Yeah.
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Well, there's a good chance that his wife was from Sodom too.
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Yeah.
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Again, I didn't want to read too far into that, but I did think it was interesting because
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I feel like with a lot of people that we run into, like most of us, I think at different
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points, we've all lived in urban centers.
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I mean, I actually live in Soho in New York City, and so you're like right there in the
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middle of everything.
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But I feel like the more we kind of get into our families, we're all thinking about how
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can we get further out of town, like, how can we have more chickens, like how can we
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like, you know, kind of homestead a little bit?
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And I've heard a lot of people before that are talking about somebody will buy a huge
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tract of land and then they will sell, you know, they'll keep 10 acres, but then they
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sell five acres to this friend and five acres of that friend.
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And so they almost create a little bit of a compound for themselves.
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No, notice how I didn't say cult.
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Notice how I didn't not say cults, but what would you say are kaboots?
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Yeah.
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I mean, that's essentially what kaboots is is that like this is a, a communal area.
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There's a community guard and there's a lot of different things.
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Again, I had the guy on that created the, the show homestead and that's kind of like
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what those people are doing.
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It's all people that are on a particular tract of land that are all, you know, kind of helping
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and surviving.
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Some people do that now in a prepper context to where they're like, okay, this is where
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we can lock down all the gates and here's all the guys that are going to be on the wall,
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but it's almost like when people are doing that, it's, it's not.
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These are typically Christians as well.
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These are typically people that are wanting to protect their families from the predations
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of a, you know, basically an inner city lifestyle.
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And I don't want to like denigrate anybody that lives in a city center, you live where
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you live and you can act how you want to act regardless of what you're around.
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But that was just something that stuck out to me with this early part is that lot was
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not supposed to be in the city.
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And now he's there for a particular reason, whether he has an official role in the government
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and goings on of the city, but he seems to have kind of like acquiesce to the attitude
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of this wicked and approved city.
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I think it'd be different if he came in and really was, you know, fervent in his passion
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to try to change that city, but nothing in the tech shows anywhere of he was that type
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of person, right?
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Like did he come in and try to change the culture and the way, no, he just became a part
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of it.
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Well, after he was kidnapped, he didn't go back to his uncle.
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He went back to the city.
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So the other thing I want to know about what goes down in the town square and saw him.
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Like he goes, yeah, the two angels are like, no, we're going to go sleep in the town square.
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And he's like, no, don't do it.
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You don't go to the town square.
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It's crazy.
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Come sleep in my house.
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I'll make you dinner and clean your feet like you don't want to go to the town square.
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So it's like Central Park at night.
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Oh, dude.
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Yeah.
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It's bad news.
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Now, I will tell you the obviously the most confusing part of this and again, I'm the
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only one at this table without a daughter, but because out of an extreme display of hospitality,
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he's like, no, don't rape my male guests, but I have some virgin daughters that you might
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be interested in.
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Would you like them?
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You kind of broke that nuanced approach with that one.
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Yeah.
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I kind of just went straight with it.
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Didn't I?
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Yeah.
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Again, some people have tried to say that they're not talking that knowing these men
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is not talking about sodomizing these men, but like that's, that is a complete mystery.
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Then why did he say their versions?
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Yeah, exactly.
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Like, take my daughters.
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None of that makes any sense at all.
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The amount of mental gymnastics that you have to do, but why, why would he offer up his
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daughters like that?
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Like what was the point?
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Because yes, it proves the point to an extreme degree that, Hey, I'm going to be hospitable
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towards, you know, these sojourners, but my goodness, I mean, I just didn't see commentary
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that really helped me just another man advocating his responsibility.
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That's, that's worse.
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It's way worse than that.
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It's way worse, but it's just like, you know, he thinks he's being hospitable and we're going
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to see the correlation of what Sodom has done to not only lot, but his daughters later on
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in this chapter.
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And so for them, and he's like, well, I got to take care of these guys.
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Worse comes a worse, you know, they can just take my daughters, you know, for they have
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not known men.
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He's, I don't, he's just advocating his responsibility.
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The commentary I was reading here says again, a lot thought that through compromise, he
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might reach these men, but just the opposite happened.
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They had no respect for him.
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Where do we compromise thinking our thinking, our morals or our standards, right?
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Like, yeah, and I think that's where 2 Peter 2, 7, 8 comes in where he calls them righteous
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and Peter calls them righteous lot.
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He felt what he was doing was righteous and it wasn't.
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Yeah, that's the thing is when you compromise and you are, you know, participating in worldliness,
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you lose your influence in many ways because you don't have that witness and that separation.
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And that's what it says here, because of his worldliness, lot had no spiritual influence
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either in the city or in his home.
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I think that's a big deal.
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One thing is, I don't want to just jump to it, but it struck me, they must have been
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extremely depraved.
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If they were struck blind and then continued to grope for the door, I mean, you got to
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want that in a way that I can't even fathom.
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Yeah.
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If I'm struck blind, I'm out, whatever I'm doing.
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I'm sitting down and I'm walking away, something, you know what I mean?
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They were there to grove and they were groping something.
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Mercy.
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That's what they wanted to do.
11:15
Yeah.
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That's certainly what they wanted to do.
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Not if you have a modern description of what the word "no" means, but yeah, that is a level
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of depravity that these guys were thirsting big time for.
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Let's go ahead and keep this.
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Yeah, go ahead, please.
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I think it's kind of funny if you notice that when a lot offers his daughters, it's basically
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what Abraham did in Egypt.
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He offered us a wife.
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He offered us a wife.
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Yes, right.
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It's my sister as Tefero.
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Save himself.
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You know, to save himself.
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And so a lot was offering up his daughters to save his guests and himself.
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So it's just like kind of, if you look at the parallel version of that, you know, it's
11:48
like, and that's, but that's the thing is that God still looks at, still looks at Abraham
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of being righteous.
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And that's why, you know, God still looks at a lot as being righteous in this moment
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and the fact that these angels are still trying to get him out of Sodom before it's destroyed.
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Yeah.
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And I guess contextually in those days, you know, there was a different perception in paradigm
12:09
when it came to women.
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Yeah.
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I was about to say the same thing.
12:12
I mean, the level, because that's kind of the description that we see in Scripture.
12:16
The fact that the first eyewitnesses of the risen Jesus were women, we don't see that
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as interesting in our modern way of viewing things.
12:23
But like these are a lot of times, especially in that society, women were seen as less valuable
12:28
than livestock in a lot of cases, right?
12:31
And so they certainly would not have their opinions be admissible in court or they wouldn't
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be believed in any type of manner.
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And so to around this time when this was happening or to a reader and, you know, the first century
12:41
or something like that, they would not have been aghast at this type of thing.
12:44
Like we are like, he did what?
12:46
He offered up his virgin daughters so that he wouldn't have to like inconvenience his
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male so-durning guests.
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It's like, well, I mean, this is a really bad thing that we look at, you know, being where
12:55
we're at now downstream.
12:57
It seems so crazy.
12:58
But at that time, again, it just goes back to the reasons why we can look at the Scripture
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as like, no, this is a description of actual reality.
13:04
You know, what's up, pulling this out?
13:05
I think I've made a reference to this on last week's episode.
13:09
But when he was on Joe Rogan, Joe Rogan, you could tell Joe Rogan wanted the other gospels
13:14
that are not part of canon to be real, like just because it's more interesting.
13:17
The gospel of Barnabas and the gospel of Judas and the gospel of Peter.
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But when you see in the gospel of Peter, there's no mention of the female eyewitnesses.
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And so you can tell that somebody tried to clean it up.
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And part of the reason why we can look at the synoptic gospels and the females being the
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first ones that saw that is because that was an inconvenient fact that if you were manufacturing
13:36
the story out of whole cloth, you would not have put that in there.
13:38
That detail would not have been in there because it would not have helped your story
13:40
in any way, shape or form.
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Well, let's keep this going in Genesis 19.
13:45
We're going to do verses 12 through 22.
13:48
So Ryan, how about you hit that?
13:49
12 through 22.
13:50
Let's go.
13:51
All right.
13:52
Bear with me.
13:53
I know you don't like dead air.
13:54
Someone continue to talk.
13:55
Then there was--
13:56
You can sing like you did off in between episodes or whatever.
14:00
Do the Jack Black.
14:01
No, don't do it.
14:02
All right.
14:03
Then the men said a lot, have you anywhere else, have you, have you anyone else here?
14:07
Son-in-law, sons, daughters, or anyone you have in the city, bring them out of the place.
14:12
We are about to destroy this place because the outcry against its people has become great
14:17
before the Lord and the Lord has sent us to destroy it.
14:20
So Lot went out and said to his sons-in-law who were to marry his daughters up, get out
14:25
of this place, for the Lord is about to destroy the city.
14:27
But he seemed to his sons-in-law to be jesting.
14:31
As morning dawn, the angels urged Lot saying, "Up, take your wife and your daughters who
14:35
are here lest you be swept away in the punishment of the city."
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But he lingered.
14:41
So the man seized him and his wife and his wife's two daughters by the hand.
14:45
The Lord being merciful to him and they brought him out and set him outside the city.
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And as they brought them out, one said, "Escape for your life.
14:54
Do not look back or stop anywhere in the valley.
14:57
Escape to the hills lest you be swept away."
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And Lot said to them, "Oh, no, my Lord, behold, your servant has found favor in your sight,
15:07
and you have shown me great kindness in saving my life.
15:09
But I cannot escape to the hills lest the disaster overtake me, and I die.
15:13
Behold, the city is near enough to flee to, and it's a little one.
15:17
Let me escape there.
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Is it not a little one, and my life will be saved?"
15:22
He said to him, "Behold, I grant you this favor also that I will not overthrow the city
15:28
of which you have spoken.
15:30
Escape there quickly, for I can do nothing till you arrive there.
15:34
Therefore the name of the city was called Zor."
15:37
So I'm going to go back to verse 16, but he lingered.
15:42
Yeah.
15:43
So the big question here is why.
15:45
Why did he linger?
15:47
Was he sad that he might lose all of his stuff?
15:51
Was he worried about the city itself?
15:52
Was he worried about these particular people?
15:56
We're left only to speculate because we don't get an exact description from scripture why
16:01
he lingered.
16:03
So I just want to throw that out there and open that up for some discussion.
16:08
I think he just is going to miss the city.
16:09
I mean, Howard is saying he just kept progressing more and more towards the city of Sodom.
16:16
And so it's like, yeah, he's leaving behind memories, he's leaving behind possessions.
16:20
And I don't know if he really realizes the wickedness of Sodom.
16:24
Okay, maybe he's been so depraved or he's been in the area for so long that he doesn't
16:29
realize the depravity that's around him.
16:31
I think that when I was reading through that and it just, either one of the commentaries
16:35
I read are just sitting there, you know, thinking through the idea that, you know, when we think
16:40
about when the Lord's coming back, is there anything about this world that will miss?
16:45
Or do we just think, no, our eyes are forward, not back.
16:49
And to me, that is what Lot's doing here.
16:52
He's thinking back.
16:53
He's not, his eye isn't on what the Lord has planned for him.
16:56
He's more about what am I going to miss from the city or that culture or whatever.
17:01
And it's like, no, like, why should you have any desire or any reflection back on that?
17:08
Or I should be forward.
17:10
And the whole way you described that, which I think is probably the way he'd be thinking
17:14
about it just revolved around the word "I" the whole time, you know?
17:20
And he was rescued, you know, like you said before and went straight back to Sodom.
17:24
So we didn't learn from that.
17:25
In this case, he's just been part of this system and wants to have it his way and not
17:30
God's way.
17:31
God literally had to drag him out.
17:33
Yeah.
17:34
And I think the other thing could be his son-in-laws.
17:36
You know, they thought he was just an angel.
17:38
Yeah.
17:40
And the fact that his daughters were betrothed to be married.
17:43
And so that kind of gave me an interesting look at what that looks like.
17:46
Like when you're betrothed, it's like a year before you actually consummate the marriage.
17:50
And so he already had sons who probably were already Sodomites, son-in-laws who were Sodomites
17:55
that were supposed to marry his daughters.
17:57
And he could have lingered to give them more time.
17:59
Who knows?
18:00
Trying to, you know, trying to say, hey, like, this is going to happen, like look what's
18:04
going down.
18:05
So I don't know.
18:06
There's many things that could have gone on in that.
18:08
Well, it's interesting how the angels ask him, have you anyone else here that you need
18:14
to try to get out of the city?
18:16
And it's like, no, I mean, besides his son-in-laws, we talk about having a group of men that
18:23
you do life with, it's like Sodom, or, I mean, he didn't have anybody in this city.
18:27
No, they're outside trying to rape them.
18:29
Yeah.
18:30
They're blind now, though.
18:31
They're groping the ground.
18:32
They're raping everybody.
18:33
I don't know.
18:34
Well, the other thing about this, so funny thing, that's not funny, but you use the word
18:37
Sodomites.
18:38
So where do we get the word Sodomites?
18:39
It's because of what the people in Sodom were like.
18:41
So again, people that are trying to reread the text and say something that's not saying,
18:45
you have to look at the context of what we're seeing.
18:46
But also, I do wonder if it has something you run, you kind of alluded to this a little
18:51
bit to where you don't understand how to pray if the area you're in is until maybe an outsider
18:56
comes in and sees it, because I remember when I moved to New York City, I had a random
19:01
job with Major League Baseball, and I knew I was going to be there temporarily.
19:04
And so I was never at the speed of the city, never bothered me.
19:07
People would be like, oh, you come from a slow place, so close.
19:09
Oklahoma, it's going to be the speed that bothered you, it's like, bro, these people
19:12
barely talk as fast as I do.
19:14
This is not, the speed is not well worried.
19:16
Worried me.
19:17
It was that you would run into a Christian in a city of, I mean, I'm in a borough that
19:21
has almost as many people as a state of Oklahoma, right?
19:24
And so you would run into a Christian and it would be like, I found the other one.
19:27
That's what it felt like, because the entire city revolves around, and this was 2012, the
19:32
entire city revolved around money, success, sex, partying, and the people I was working
19:38
with, they leaned into basically all of that, right?
19:40
These are people that went out every single night, because we worked every single day
19:44
for nine months, right?
19:45
That was just part of the job we were doing.
19:47
And they would go out, like we would get done sometimes at one or two in the morning, and
19:50
we knew we had to be back by nine AM, and these people would go out because that was
19:54
the currency.
19:55
It was going out, live it up, you know, what is it, feast for tomorrow, we die, or whatever
20:00
the thing is, like, that's what these, these people were doing.
20:03
And I don't know if they could see it.
20:05
I don't know if a lot of these people could see it because they were like, this is just
20:07
my sandbox, and I'm going to play in it.
20:09
But for me, I'm coming in more sober minded, like literally and figuratively, and it's
20:13
like, man, y'all don't understand how to brave this place is, like, and it's just because
20:17
they couldn't see it because they were steeped in it, they were marinated in it for so long
20:21
that you wonder if you could take someone out of that, that place for a while, and then
20:25
put them back and it's like, wait, this city does stink.
20:28
There are rats everywhere.
20:29
Man, the governance of this place is really terrible.
20:31
I just got used to the filth, right?
20:33
Yeah.
20:34
And you see people that are only squatter, not squatters, but people shoot, people that
20:39
have like a million of everything in their house, it's all.
20:42
Hoarders.
20:43
Hoarders.
20:44
Hoarders.
20:45
Hoarders.
20:46
When you see these episodes, it's absolutely haunting.
20:47
These people are surrounded by filth and excrement and just all this kind of stuff, but they just
20:51
get used to it.
20:52
Yeah.
20:53
They don't smell the smell anymore.
20:54
Right.
20:55
They don't understand that I'm surrounded by clutter and filth.
20:57
It's just where they are.
20:58
You wonder, man, if I could just plug this person out for a week and then put them back
21:02
in, they'll actually be able to see what it looks like.
21:04
Yeah.
21:05
Other thoughts on this before God blows awesome fireworks?
21:09
Hoard?
21:10
Nothing to think of on there.
21:12
Okay.
21:13
Hoard?
21:14
Well...
21:15
Hold on.
21:16
No, I did have one more.
21:17
Okay.
21:18
Let's go.
21:19
It's...
21:20
I think this is in Volana Vodie-Bachum's book.
21:21
It says, "You've heard it said, 'As the family goes, so goes the nation,' but it can
21:24
be said, 'As the father goes, so goes the family.'
21:28
And so, if you look at lots of life here, that's the exact truth.
21:32
I mean, look what happens next.
21:35
Yeah.
21:36
It kind of reminds me of what he says when he's like, 'You send your kids to Caesar.
21:39
Don't be surprised.
21:40
They come back Romans.'
21:41
Yeah.
21:42
You know?
21:43
And it's like, 'You send your family to Sodom.
21:44
Don't be surprised that they come back Sodomites.'
21:46
It's kind of like sending your kids to Disneyland, right?
21:48
You know?
21:49
You send them to Disneyland or Disney World.
21:50
They hang out with the bearded lady, right?
21:52
Kind of like that.
21:53
You can't like that.
21:55
Kind of like that, Ryan.
21:56
Is it like that?
21:57
It was no bearded lady.
21:58
No, because you had to like, you know, cover your kids' eyes whether they walk past the
22:01
bearded princess.
22:02
No, hold on.
22:03
Hold on.
22:04
Keep giving them money though.
22:05
That's crazy.
22:06
I just went to Disney.
22:07
Yeah, of course you did.
22:08
And we got back last week.
22:09
And while we were there, we were in Epcot.
22:12
And so, in several of the areas within Epcot, they were telling the Christmas story, okay?
22:20
And several of these people talking mentioned the birth of Christ.
22:23
Oh, wow.
22:24
So I was very... and what he didn't tell you about that part of the story is as soon as
22:28
Disney found out about it, they fired them all.
22:30
They fired them all because they're not only allowed to employ sodomites.
22:33
The gospel was spoken at Epcot more than it is some churches in Oklahoma.
22:36
You want to name them?
22:39
I'm not trying to name them.
22:40
That's not my place.
22:41
But I mean, I was.
22:42
I was very shocked by that several of the, you know...
22:45
Maybe they'll work that into a storyline for a future Pixar thing or something like that.
22:49
Maybe they'll work in, you know, or they'll just go right back to the trans kids thing.
22:52
Hey, yeah, by all means, let's just keep giving money to people that hate us.
22:56
That's great, guys.
22:57
Let's get into speaking to God destroying sodomites.
22:59
Let's go right in to God doing that exact thing, whoever wants to read, 23 through 29.
23:06
The son had risen on the earth when Lot came to Zor.
23:09
Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah, sulfur and fire from the Lord out of heaven.
23:13
And he overthrew those cities and all the valley and all the inhabitants of the cities and
23:19
what grew on the ground.
23:20
But Lot's wife behind him looked back and she became a pillar of salt.
23:25
And Abraham went early in the morning to the place where he had stood before the Lord and
23:29
he looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah and toward all the land of the valley and he looked
23:33
and behold the smoke of the land went up like smoke of a furnace.
23:38
So it was that when God destroyed the cities of the valley, God remembered Abraham and
23:43
sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow.
23:46
And he came, he overthrew the cities in which Lot had lived.
23:51
So the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, one of the, I guess, one of the most known things
23:57
of the Old Testament, things that happened.
23:59
So when it says sulfur and fire, some people are saying that, no, this rained down.
24:05
This was like a supernatural thing that God sent from the sky.
24:08
Some people think, no, this was a volcanic eruption.
24:11
And so it was just a description, yes, some people think volcanic eruption with an earthquake.
24:16
Some might even say it was a shark NATO.
24:17
We don't know.
24:18
We don't know exactly what happened.
24:19
We weren't there.
24:20
We don't have video.
24:21
But have you guys seen any people that are kind of like trying to surmise where that
24:24
happened?
24:25
There are certain people that are over in like Turkey and stuff like that and they're like,
24:28
no, no, this is where it happened.
24:29
So south of the Dead Sea, it's Dead Sea south on the, on the eastern side or eastern side.
24:34
Yeah.
24:35
No, western side.
24:36
I saw eastern.
24:37
You saw eastern?
24:38
Eastern because they were.
24:39
We got super computers in front of us.
24:40
And then they took the calculations because somewhere it says it's south, well, the south
24:47
in that context is like east, southeast, right?
24:52
And so where they went over and found that they excavated and found where all of this
24:57
happened, where they think this happened, the population size, the date ranging of that
25:02
fits with all of those time periods, I think it's the second Bronze Age or whatever.
25:06
Well, in some of the excavations, I actually found sodium balls that would have lined
25:12
up exactly with what would have happened.
25:14
So thought it was very interesting when they pulled up some of those and showed them unearthing
25:18
these little white.
25:19
Yeah.
25:20
So.
25:21
And I think it's interesting.
25:22
Sulfur, sorry.
25:23
Yeah, we talk about this with, we've talked about some other things.
25:26
If the Bible were just a bunch of collection of fables that were all kind of mushed together
25:30
because Constantine needed to like, you know, support his decision to become a Christian
25:33
or whatever.
25:35
Every time we would have an archeological find, yeah, like we would expect it to go against
25:39
the narrative of scripture, but we see the exact opposite and archeology, people just
25:43
assume that everything's been found.
25:46
But you know, again, you talk about ancient Egypt, you talk about the Amazon, you talk
25:49
about these different places.
25:51
There are entire places in the Sahara that are complete.
25:54
There are cities in those deserts, you guys that are completely covered by sand, like they're
25:59
finding whale bones in the Sahara desert because that used to be like lush sea, like, right.
26:04
And so it's like, to presume that we know everything is silly.
26:09
But again, whenever you see these archeological digs go on it, it's usually like, oh, we never
26:12
heard about this people group in this particular area, the Bible does not be real.
26:16
And then we find it and then it's like, oh, shoot, yeah, these people were in this particular
26:19
area.
26:20
We just hadn't found evidence of it yet.
26:21
Yeah, it just doesn't get down on the main screen media when they find that.
26:23
That too.
26:24
Yeah.
26:25
I think I heard an archeologist say a stat, something like we've only unearthed or discovered.
26:29
I want to say is that something like one to two percent of what they think might be possible
26:34
Oh, well, Wes Huff, again, on Joe Rogan, he was talking about ancient Egypt.
26:37
He's like, in terms of what we know of Egyptian history, we've only excavated about one percent
26:43
of that.
26:44
Yeah.
26:45
And so to back up what we think we know about ancient Egypt, which we don't know, Jack,
26:47
we're looking at one percent or less of the stuff that's actually got to watch that.
26:51
I'll tell you something else that can't, I'm kind of having to reach back, but I remember
26:53
looking at some of the stuff that they thought they had unearthed from Sodom and Gomorrah.
26:58
And I believe it was some sort of like, like glass substance.
27:01
Yes.
27:02
Right.
27:03
So forth.
27:04
So if you've ever seen, like to your point of volcano, like what's left after a volcano
27:08
is, it doesn't look like a bunch of glass structures.
27:11
It's like very dark, harsh rock.
27:14
Isn't that where obsidian comes from?
27:16
Is that from volcanic?
27:17
I don't know.
27:18
I'm not sure about that one.
27:19
All right.
27:20
You keep going.
27:21
Sorry.
27:22
I would, I think the point would be it doesn't appear that that would be a volcano.
27:23
And what they think they've found seems to correlate with what's described here.
27:28
Yeah.
27:29
They're talking about the heat, the temperature, I'd be 6,000 plus degrees for that sand and
27:33
that, that mix to get that kind of substance.
27:37
First of all, if you Google, how do we get obsidian?
27:40
Everything's about Minecraft.
27:41
Did I miss something?
27:42
Yeah.
27:43
Like what's like, five, six, seven, eight, the entire thing's Minecraft.
27:47
What did I just stumble into here?
27:49
Rock.
27:50
You all keep going.
27:51
I'm going to actually try to figure out how Google works while you all are talking.
27:53
Yeah.
27:54
I heard something either this week or in the last couple of weeks about the Sahara Desert
27:58
when you actually peel back the, you know, feet of sand, hundreds of feet of sand and
28:04
get down and then they start digging into there what they find.
28:07
You know, at one time it was a beautiful, thick vegetation of that land and the bones
28:13
and stuff that they find under there is just mind-blowing.
28:17
So.
28:18
Yeah.
28:19
I don't know.
28:20
Yeah, I'm not going to get into that.
28:23
Kentucky.
28:24
Everything's in Kentucky.
28:25
All the answers.
28:26
Oh, yeah.
28:27
Yeah.
28:28
You and I love to have conversations about the Creation Museum.
28:30
It came up last time we were here.
28:32
Have you been here?
28:33
Or have you been there?
28:34
Yeah.
28:35
So you and Winkler.
28:36
You went to both, right?
28:37
You've been.
28:38
I haven't gone to the Arc yet, but we went to the Creation Museum and did all the exhibits
28:41
there.
28:42
So do you think there were dinosaurs on the Arc?
28:44
That's what Winkler thinks.
28:45
I don't know.
28:46
I don't know.
28:47
I was there.
28:48
But yeah, I believe that the dinosaurs were here at the same time as humans.
28:51
Yeah.
28:52
Dragons.
28:53
Right.
28:54
So.
28:55
Dragons.
28:56
Genesis 1.
28:57
No, I guess it would have been Genesis 3.
28:59
Isn't when we fought.
29:00
Yeah.
29:01
It was.
29:02
Yeah.
29:03
It was during that time.
29:04
Yeah.
29:05
You're like, there's dragons.
29:06
It's certainly possible.
29:07
Right.
29:08
Isn't it cool for obsidian?
29:09
I thought I was going to say he gave me the day of obsidian thing.
29:11
I'm still trying to figure out what the region was.
29:14
I know.
29:15
So that was like 20 minutes ago.
29:16
Come on.
29:17
Yeah.
29:18
I know.
29:19
Yeah.
29:20
I'm still looking at volcanic rock textures.
29:21
I'm just trying to figure that out.
29:22
I just noticed you can highlight in August.
29:24
I need to remember this.
29:25
Hey, the highlight is the only thing that ever actually like, you know, works for me every
29:30
single time.
29:31
Highlight hit inner.
29:32
So God removed a lot physically from disaster, but the effects of his spiritual errors continued
29:36
to plague them.
29:37
Lot was conformed to the world and all that he lived for went up and smoke and was buried
29:41
under ruin somewhere in the area around the Dead Sea.
29:46
So I guess just going back to be careful what you choose to live in and the people you
29:50
want to hang with and the ultimate consequences.
29:53
What verse did you go through?
29:55
That was in terms of reading.
29:57
Yeah.
29:58
Went to 29, 23 to 29, 29.
30:02
Hey, do we know why she became a pillar of salt?
30:06
Because she looked back.
30:07
No, I know the reason she was turned into a pillar of salt.
30:10
But why was she why you look like a pillar of no properties?
30:13
So why salt?
30:14
Why salt?
30:15
Why?
30:16
Why didn't she just poof not exist?
30:17
Why didn't she turn into, you know, lime jello?
30:18
Like why did she why was she turned into a pillar of salt?
30:21
Because it doesn't seem accidental. Is there any other mentioned pillars of salt in scripture?
30:26
I got a log I'll send here right in front of me.
30:30
Nobody read anything on that because I don't know.
30:32
All I read was like the reason she she looked back was more than likely she had a faithfulness
30:36
and Sodom and Gomorrah and being being a sodomite than being an actual believer.
30:41
And so she was looking back at her looking back at what she loved, and that's why she
30:46
turned into a pillar.
30:47
So now this might be interesting here.
30:48
The Lexim cultural ontology glossary talks about a salt curse.
30:54
That's the practice of spreading salt over an area often a defeated city where you know
30:57
where they say salt the earth, right?
30:58
And the way of saying nothing shall grow in that area ever again, maybe there's a connection
31:03
there.
31:04
So she turns around and she becomes, you know, salt, she's part of the salt curse to an
31:09
area that is to this day not inhabited an area that was completely destroyed.
31:13
A question that was posed to me, what if Lot's wife wasn't turned into a pillar of salt?
31:19
What if that was just thrown in the story to make it better?
31:21
Would you read that from what?
31:24
What is that?
31:25
What's the question Kyle asked us like six weeks ago, I didn't ask you all that.
31:31
What was the context?
31:33
What was I saying?
31:34
Yeah.
31:35
You read the whole thing.
31:36
All right.
31:37
I'll read the whole thing.
31:38
This is on.
31:39
That doesn't show a day.
31:44
Hang on.
31:45
Doesn't matter.
31:46
No, this is from a long time ago.
31:48
All right.
31:49
Here we go.
31:50
Honest question.
31:51
If certain parts of the Bible are factually inaccurate, does that nullify the text in its
31:56
entirety?
31:57
Oh, yeah.
31:58
By the way, I was just, this was just a thought experiment guys.
32:00
I'm not going to hear a seat down.
32:02
All right.
32:03
And so, and then my next thing was, so you know, it's nothing, so you know, it's not
32:08
a gotcha question.
32:09
I've thought about this a lot.
32:10
What if Lot's wife wasn't turned into a pillar of salt?
32:13
I was using that as an example.
32:14
I think she was turned into a pillar of salt, but what if she wasn't turned into a pillar
32:17
of salt?
32:18
What if that was just thrown into the story to make it better?
32:20
Does that disprove the resurrection, which is the foundation of our salvation?
32:24
Lot's wife.
32:25
Hey, I'm trying to read here.
32:26
Shut up, y'all.
32:27
Lot's wife is just one of many examples of things that even if they weren't accurate,
32:30
it wouldn't make me question whether or not Jesus lived, died or resurrected.
32:35
Does that make sense why I posed the question?
32:36
Yeah.
32:37
It makes sense why you posed the question.
32:38
It wasn't way back in here to find that.
32:40
All you gotta do, all you gotta do?
32:41
That's what he was doing all the time.
32:43
He wasn't looking for that.
32:44
He wasn't looking for the reach.
32:45
All I had to do was go to search, and I put in pillar of salt, and it popped right in.
32:49
Oh my gosh.
32:50
That was the point I was making.
32:52
I wasn't trying to do my own version of Andy Stanley here, but I was like, let's say,
32:56
let's say there was a complete, you know, problem with the transcript, and she was turned
33:01
into a pillar of stone and not a pillar of salt, like with that change anything.
33:04
I guess the reason why I thought about that, my freshman year roommate, he was in a somewhat
33:10
in one class, and I don't know if it was philosophy or whatever, but the guy was talking
33:15
about how minor changes to a text or transcript can change the entire trajectory of a philosophy,
33:21
and he's like, wouldn't it change the story of Jesus if he walked on water versus walked
33:27
in water?
33:28
So he's like, I'm changing a single letter, and it changes whether or not we think that
33:32
Jesus was God, because walking in water is completely unsensational, whereas walking on
33:38
water is something that no human has ever been able to do without extreme assistance,
33:42
that type of thing.
33:43
And so that was my thing that I was trying to think through from a thought experiment
33:47
point of view to where it's like, okay, if someone's like, there's no, because if someone
33:50
could say there's no evidence that lots of wife even existed much less, she turned into
33:54
a pillar of salt, it's like if we're talking about the resurrection of Christ, which is
33:58
the basis of our of our relationship, right? The new covenant, all the things, like, if
34:04
that were somehow wrong in our biblical canon, does that mean that that the resurrection
34:09
didn't happen?
34:10
Right?
34:11
That's where I was kind of going with it, which again, if it's scripture's God breathed,
34:13
that means it has to be accurate, you know, all the things and I get that, but I'm just
34:17
like, all right, the chance of somebody being turned into salt and somebody resurrecting
34:22
from the dead. Like, if I believe this, it's easy for me to believe this. You know what
34:29
I'm saying?
34:30
So that's where it's just like, that's where it's just like, I don't get, I don't get
34:32
the question. I get the walk on water question, but then you have to look at the context of
34:36
they're out on a boat and it's storming out. They're afraid they're going to drown. So
34:41
there's no way that Jesus is not walking on water. He's not walking in water. His head
34:46
would be underwater at the point of where the boats at. So that's where I'm like, is
34:51
there anything too hard for the Lord? That was one of the things I wrote down on all
34:54
of this. So it's like, you know, is it unbelievable? There are a lot of things that are unbelievable,
34:59
but is there anything too difficult for him? Nope.
35:01
Including our weak faith, right? Like, that's, doesn't change the truth of the message
35:07
of his saving grace, right? Like, but I think the other piece too that gives us confidence
35:13
is, I think you've talked about this many times is how many copies of their original
35:18
text are there? Thousands. It's been transposed thousands of times, right?
35:23
Well, that's, well, that's actually the argument of atheists is that we have no originals.
35:27
And so that's the problem with all the things that are written down is we have no originals.
35:29
The problem, the problem for the atheist is that we have so many copies and so many fragments
35:34
of copies that, and that, again, I keep going back to West Huff, when he appeared on Joe
35:39
Rogan because one of the things that absolutely blew, there was a wow counter that somebody
35:43
made for TikTok. It was like, how many times did Joe Rogan say, wow, during the interview
35:48
with West Huff? And it was just, wow, wow, wow. But one of the biggest ones is Joe, because
35:53
you could tell that Joe Rogan just didn't really know very much about what he was talking about.
35:56
He knows a little bit about a lot of different things, which could make you kind of think
36:00
you're an expert, but it just, you know, on this particular subject, he was sitting across
36:04
from one. He was talking about the Dead Sea Scrolls and what was it called? The great
36:08
scroll of Isaiah where it was the entirety of the book of Isaiah on a scroll or whatever.
36:14
And Joe was like, well, what did that do for Christianity? He's like, well, wait a minute,
36:17
but that had to be different than what we have today. So how different was that scroll
36:22
to what we have today? And you could just tell West was like, oh, man, I got them. But
36:26
I need to explain it. And so what he explained is what that did is, because at that time,
36:30
we didn't have, we didn't have Old Testament transcripts that were older than the New Testament
36:37
records. Okay. And so he's like, that great scroll that was found there in Coomron or
36:42
whatever, pushed our understanding back a thousand years of what was written in the Old
36:47
Testament, a thousand years. And then he hit Joe Rogan with the one two and he said, and
36:52
it's exactly like what we have in today's Bible. It is an exact translation going back
36:57
an extra 1000 years in that particular thing. And so it's like, you know, that's, and the
37:02
fact that it's Isaiah and that includes Isaiah 53 specifically huge. Hey, you want to do
37:08
some awesome guys listening to this right now, go to Google and there's a guy that will,
37:12
he walks through Israel and he has Jews read Isaiah 53, because whenever they're doing
37:17
their study, they're not allowed to study Isaiah 53, right? And it's just a, it's a very interesting
37:21
thing. One thing I did want to read in Deuteronomy, so I'm just doing some more search on the
37:25
salt thing to try and find a salt answer. But Deuteronomy 29, starting in verse 22, Deuteronomy
37:33
29, 22, and the next generation, your children who rise up after you and the foreigner who
37:38
comes from a far land will say when they see the afflictions of that land and the sicknesses
37:43
with which the Lord has made it sick, the whole land burned out with brimstone and salt, nothing
37:48
sewn and nothing growing where no plant can sprout and overthrow like that of Sodom and
37:54
Gomorrah, Admah and Zoboam, which the Lord overthrew and his anger and wrath. All the
38:00
nations will say, why has the Lord done this to the land, done thus to this land? What caused
38:04
the heat of this great anger? And so again, the description here of brimstone, because
38:09
we always hear about hell, fire and brimstone, but it's also salt, which means again, if
38:13
you're going to destroy a land, like you destroy all the inhabitants, you take down all the
38:19
dwellings, you burn everything and then you salt the earth, you cannot grow anything there,
38:23
you cannot build anything there. So I'm wondering if her becoming a pillar of salt, she became
38:27
a symbol of what was being destroyed in that moment. Like again, I'm providing my own
38:33
conjecture here. I looked at the robot and put it into the robot.
38:37
Okay, what did Chad GBT say? Chad GBT said, so one, a symbol of disobedience is attachment.
38:42
We already kind of went over that. Salt as a preservation. Salt was a valuable commodity
38:46
in biblical times. It symbolizes permanence or durability. Her becoming a pillar of salt
38:50
could represent her permanent memorial as a warning against disobedience of the consequences
38:55
of looking back at sin. Historical and cultural context, some believe the transformation in
39:00
the salt was a natural phenomenon tied to the region's geography, the Dead Sea area near
39:05
which the cities were located is rich in salt. Some think that the sulfur and the fire raining
39:12
down on the cities could have caused the minerals in the area to crystallize in a way that made
39:17
lots. Why figure appeared to as salt appear as a salt formation, reinforcing the divine
39:23
punishment narrative. Okay, so that's kind of in line with what I was just saying. Yeah,
39:27
what is that? That was from Chad GBT. That was from Chad GBT. Man, I don't even eat
39:30
Chad GBT. That just came from all up here, man. You are Chad GBT. I am Chad GBT. Ask me
39:35
questions, man. I got it. Let's go. You're the robot. Let's freak out. Now we can call
39:39
robot. Oh, be boo, be boo. Let's keep this going guys. All right, let's close out Genesis
39:44
19. So whoever wants to read, we're going to do 30 through 38. Okay, I'll take that.
39:50
Now a lot went out from Zora and lived in the hills with his two daughters for he was
39:54
afraid to live in Zora. So he lived in the cave with his two daughters and the first
39:59
born and said to the younger, our father is old and there is not a man on earth to come
40:05
in to us after the manor after the manor of all earth. Come, let us make our father drink
40:12
wine and we will lay with him that we may preserve our offspring for our father. So
40:16
they made their father drink wine that night. And the first born went in and lay with her
40:21
father. He did not know when she when she lay down or when she arose. The next day,
40:28
the first born said to the younger, behold, I lay last night with my father. Let us make
40:32
him drink wine tonight also. Then you go in and lay with him that we may preserve our
40:37
offspring for our father. So they made their father drink wine that night also. And the
40:41
younger arose and lay with him. And he did not know when she lay down or when she arose.
40:47
Thus the daughters of law became pregnant by their father. The first born bore a son
40:52
called and called his name Moab. He was the father of the Moabites to this day. The younger
40:58
also bore a son and they called his name Benaman. And he was the father of the Ammonites to
41:04
this day.
41:05
So this section, yeah, I mean, I don't know. Nobody got raped after this. You know, it
41:12
wasn't the angels, but it was a lot. So it's in the Bible. We can, so that we can assume
41:17
that this happened. It's a very odd or interesting add on after the story of God destroying
41:25
Sodom and Gomorrah. Obviously, it's a very confusing passage. There doesn't seem to
41:30
be a lot of, I don't know. I don't want to say there's no reason that it's here, but
41:35
it's just, it's just very, very odd to me. And I didn't get it cleared up with much commentary.
41:39
It just shows sexual immorality and the consequences of sexual immorality, consequences of abdicating
41:44
your responsibility. A lot raised his daughters in Sodom and Gomorrah. What they did is they
41:49
got him drunk. Where do they learn that Sodom? They wanted to have kids. Where do they learn
41:54
to sleep with somebody Sodom? You know, so basically the Sodomites were ready to rape
41:58
the angels. Basically what happened is lots of daughters raped him and carried a seed.
42:03
And because of that sexual immorality, there's a consequence to the line of Abraham again.
42:09
So now you have the Moabites and the Ammonites who also go up against Israel and start fights
42:14
and they don't not get along and they try to conquer them. So it's just, I think what
42:19
it's showing here is that lots, like you said in past chapters, a lot slowly kept going
42:25
into Sodom. And this is the consequence of surrounding yourself with these types of people.
42:32
And so now he's there and his daughters want what they want. And so they go out of what
42:37
God's context is and trusting in God, probably they don't even know God. And they want what
42:42
they want and they went and got what they wanted. So that's how I look at it.
42:47
No, that makes sense. It's given us a true example. I've read the book several times
42:51
but it's strong fathers, strong daughters. And it shows the weight that we have as fathers
42:56
as we raise our daughters. Same thing with our young men, but it just goes back to here.
43:02
The weight that we have as men to raise our family, to create within them that same faith.
43:10
They got to see that. And so when you read some of these stories, I read one of the commentaries
43:15
that says, "Man, why did the Bible have something like this?" And Aaron Barnhouse says, "It's
43:19
far better for our children to learn the facts of life from the Word of God where the sin
43:24
is condemned than from the dirty words on an alley wall or from a lewd story. So no one
43:30
can escape the knowledge of sin. There are things that never, there were never mentioned
43:33
without being accompanied by the stern warnings that God hates sin and punishes it. And so it's
43:38
like that's that responsibility we have and they're hard conversations to have. But if
43:43
we don't have them, they're going to learn it from somebody else.
43:45
One, why was it in the Bible? Because it happened. And so it happened. It's a testament to what
43:51
that lifestyle leads to. If we want to go back to the nuances of Sodom and Gomorrah, like people
43:57
said, you started laughing. But the thing is, I think God's just like the Bible is driving home
44:02
that Sodom and Gomorrah was a sexually immoral place. Sex was not how God intended it to be between
44:11
one man and one woman and becoming one flesh and having that type of unity. Sex was just what
44:18
it is. It was cheap. It was cheap. It was it was nothing. And it's like, hey, I want to have a kid.
44:22
My dad's the only one around. I'm going to go do that. You know what I'm saying? It's like, oh,
44:26
I want to get my jollies off and grow up something. I'm going to go knock on this guy's door,
44:30
you know, or find somebody in the in the town square and do what I please with them.
44:35
You know, the town square, man. The town square is crazy.
44:37
It's crazy. But that's the thing. It's like, I think what it's really showing is why this place
44:41
was destroyed. Like, look at what comes out of this place. It is a sick and disgusting area.
44:47
And that's why God destroyed it. Yeah. And I just think as a parent, you know,
44:51
it's I think about a lot of a lot of the conversations that we have are at night,
44:55
like when it's time to go to sleep. That's when all the big conversations happen.
44:59
And as you read things like this, you just realize, take that time, invest in it,
45:05
because it's so impact. Well, we've been doing this now. My son's almost 10. And the questions
45:08
that he has now because of the situations that he's facing at school dynamically with other kids
45:13
and teachers and all of that, he's now got sort of a blueprint for how to handle that and he can
45:17
articulate it. But that's after many years of having these discussions. And like a lot,
45:23
I don't think that he was pouring into anybody in his family more than likely. Absolutely. And as
45:27
a father, it comes down to you as a husband, it comes down to you. Period. Quit advocating your
45:32
responsibility. Yep. I mean, if anything, these chapters show us is Abraham abdicated his
45:37
responsibility, lots abdicated his responsibility and look what it's turned into.
45:42
When also what was Sarah, I supposed to be to Abram, she was supposed to be a helpmate. She was
45:47
supposed to be a protector for him. And she was the one that tempted him to abdicate his leadership
45:57
and to go into Hagar, have sex with Hagar and try to like, Hey, let's speed up God's promise here.
46:01
And let's just do it a little bit differently. I think what she did was wrong. One, we got to
46:04
understand that she know God's promise. But two, she thought she was actually helping him.
46:09
You know, and that's what we have to understand is like our wives can come to us and think that
46:13
they're actually helping. And sometimes they can, and most of the time, 90% of the time they can,
46:16
but 10% of the time we have to have discernment. You know, and so this is where he had to abdicate
46:22
and say, No, I'm not going to sleep with Hagar. You know, and then a lot could have been like,
46:27
Hey, we're not going into the city walls with our daughters, you know, like, Hey, I wouldn't,
46:32
you know, I want to move back with my uncle, you know, and be under God's promise. But
46:36
he chose not to do that. He wouldn't, he probably liked the prestige that happened in Sodom,
46:41
where he was, you know, an elder there. And he liked, you know, he had probably had some friends
46:45
there. So there's, there's other things, you know, I think the real reason he went to Sodom in that
46:50
area is one, you know, he could make more money. It was, it was a place, it was a business transaction.
46:55
Like he loved money and fame more than he loved less to the eyes. Yeah, less of the eyes.
47:01
So it was like the prodigal son. It's absolutely anything else on this Genesis 19.
47:07
I think it's great. Even through this, God still shows favor and, and everything to
47:12
lot to a point. You know, we don't know what happens to him after this, but the fact that God
47:16
brought him out of Sodom and Gomorrah, like that's, that's, that's a pretty good, pretty good thing.
47:21
So I think God counted him righteous. So I don't know if Lot's going to be there in heaven or
47:25
not. I assume he is because he's counted righteous, but like to think about it, like,
47:29
he advocated a lot, but God still still, you know, that's still shows us faithfulness.
47:34
Yeah, it shows faithfulness and it shows that God, like that righteousness isn't earned.
47:38
It's given. It's a gift. Grace is a gift. So all right. That's a great place to leave us. So guys,
47:43
that is Genesis 19 come back here next week where we are going to be talking about Genesis 20 and
47:47
21. So Genesis 20 and 21, make sure you're ready to go. But before we let you go, we are going to do
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