THE FORGING TABLE | Genesis 1 (Ep. 703)

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0:50 This is Undaunted Life a Man's Podcast.

0:54 I'm your host Kyle Thompson.

0:56 Let's get into it.

0:57 Welcome back to the forging table.

0:58 The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with content that

1:01 forges spiritual mental and physical resilience.

1:04 At the forging table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience

1:07 by digging into God's word and we're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey

1:10 with us.

1:11 That's Jake.

1:12 That's Eric.

1:13 That's Ryan guys.

1:14 I've been feeling the pressure of this.

1:15 Okay.

1:16 We are going.

1:17 It's appropriate you're wearing an origin shirt today, Jake, because we are getting back

1:19 to the origins and we've been in a little group text for the last couple of weeks because,

1:23 you know, as you guys know, you know, peek behind the curtain.

1:26 We record these in batches and so we're recording like, you know, four at a time and sometimes

1:30 there are passages of scripture where it's like crap, how are we going to turn this into

1:33 an hour's worth of content?

1:34 And then other times, it's like, oh my gosh, there's just no way and it's like we're somehow

1:39 going to have to record the first, you know, four chapters of Genesis, like an hour at

1:44 a time.

1:45 And I forget who said it, but it's like we could spend four hours just on Genesis one.

1:48 And that's not just like debating old earth, young earth.

1:51 And so I guess I'm wondering how y'all feel.

1:52 Am I like the only one that's like feeling a little bit nervous?

1:55 I don't know that I've ever been nervous since the first one we recorded.

1:57 I'm nervous.

1:58 I studied for like three hours yesterday.

2:00 Yeah, you were getting after it.

2:01 Yeah, I was like, I don't screw this up.

2:04 Wait, well, when you were studying, what were you doing?

2:07 Like what specifically?

2:08 Because I know you.

2:09 So one thing I know Ryan loves to do, which is like very inspirational for me is you just

2:12 like you'll read the text and then you'll just go back and you'll just read because you're

2:16 reading the four chapters or whatever we're covering and then you'll just go back and

2:19 reread it and reread it and you'll do that for weeks before you get in here.

2:22 Like for that three hours, like what ish were you doing?

2:25 I went back and reread, look over notes while I was looking over the notes.

2:30 These are notes that I put in there before I go and read any type of commentaries.

2:35 I usually like to read commentaries to check myself to make sure I'm not.

2:38 Reckon yourself?

2:39 Yeah.

2:40 That makes sense.

2:41 I don't I don't go into the any seemingly commentaries, but he has his own commentary.

2:45 That'd be amazing.

2:46 He does.

2:47 I was being sarcastic because we were talking about hair takes.

2:49 But no, I mean, I go I just go through.

2:52 I go through my notes again, reread I probably reread another two times and then I go and

2:58 look at the commentaries.

3:00 And so this one I kind of went through I went through a lot of moody went through a lot

3:03 of voice.

3:04 I actually went through Calvin to on the first chapter.

3:08 So yeah, shocker of all shocks, but yeah, I mean, did that for about three hours yesterday

3:14 while listening to some Shane and Shane.

3:15 Okay.

3:16 Very good.

3:17 That's good.

3:18 So what about you guys?

3:19 How are you feeling about getting into Genesis?

3:20 Genesis, you're shaking your head, Jake.

3:22 I took off yesterday.

3:23 Oh boy.

3:24 I took off work yesterday.

3:26 Okay.

3:27 All right.

3:28 Which you know, with with the time of year it is and everything that's probably not the

3:30 most convenient to do, but I literally took off all day yesterday just so I could keep,

3:35 you know, and like Ryan, I think I read through the four chapters, I don't know, probably

3:40 a dozen times, but then had the logo software and had it on the three screens and here's

3:46 this commentary.

3:47 Here's this commentary.

3:48 Here's this commentary.

3:49 Here's this commentary.

3:50 That's the way guys, if you want to have, so no one knows how to pronounce it, logos,

3:53 is it logos?

3:54 No one actually knows, but we do, we are able to get that out of discount.

3:58 And guys, I get questions all the time in my DMs and my emails.

4:01 How do I get access to that?

4:02 Ryan, where is the link?

4:03 In the show notes.

4:04 It is in the show notes.

4:05 So guys, if you go to the show notes for this episode, guys, guys, the show notes, the

4:08 link, guess where the link is?

4:09 It's in the show notes.

4:10 If you go to the show notes, there is a link to where you can get the Logos Bible software

4:13 at a discount.

4:15 And so by the time you guys are listening to this, they have a little bit of a different,

4:18 you know, structure because you had to like pay for the software and they're moving to

4:20 more like a monthly charge model, but there, there's no more powerful Bible software in

4:25 existence.

4:26 And that's not my opinion.

4:27 It just doesn't exist.

4:28 And so that's what, that's what you were digging into just to get ready.

4:30 Yesterday, I literally bought the Moody commentary on Logos yesterday, right?

4:34 That's another thing.

4:35 So like if you like Moody or MacArthur or Calvin or any of those types of things, like some

4:39 of them will come with your package, but some of them, you can just buy the commentary right

4:43 there inside of the software and then inside of the software, you can still do all the stuff

4:47 for you.

4:48 Highlight words and do a word study on that.

4:50 You can't buy it in the app.

4:52 You have to go to the website.

4:53 Oh, you go to Logos.com.

4:54 You go to Logos.com because I was looking for voice and I was looking and I got the books

5:00 on Amazon.

5:01 I was like, man, it'd be so much easier if I had these commentaries in here.

5:05 And I'm like, I went over and looked for them.

5:07 And I was like, man, this is not, not for sale in the app, not for sale in the app.

5:10 And so I'm like, man, Amazon is the same thing.

5:12 It's annoying.

5:13 I found out it's because Apple will charge them like 40% of like the book price.

5:19 And so what you do is just go to Logos.com, log in, and then go to their store and all

5:24 the commentaries are there.

5:25 I got the Moody commentary, the boys commentaries there.

5:27 The boys one, I'm only going to, I'll buy the second and third volume as we go along

5:32 because by the time I get back into it, I don't need the first volume.

5:35 Okay.

5:36 Fair enough.

5:37 Fair enough.

5:38 It's pretty cool.

5:39 Browning, how are you feeling about all this?

5:40 Feeling great.

5:41 Yep.

5:42 I'm going to go to the next few weeks.

5:44 I'm going to go to the next few weeks.

5:45 I'm going to go to the next few weeks.

5:46 I'm going to go to the next week.

5:47 I'm going to go to the next week.

5:48 I'm going to go to the next week.

5:49 I'm going to go to the next week.

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5:52 I'm going to go to the next week.

5:53 I'm going to go to the next week.

5:54 I'm going to go to the next week.

5:55 I'm going to go to the next week.

5:56 I'm going to go to the next week.

5:57 I'm going to go to the next week.

5:58 I'm going to go to the next week.

5:59 I'm going to go to the next week.

6:00 I'm going to go to the next week.

6:01 I'm going to go to the next week.

6:12 I'm going to go to the next week.

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6:14 I'm going to go to the next week.

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6:40 I'm going to go to the next week.

6:41 I'm going to go to the next week.

6:42 I'm going to go to the next week.

6:43 I'm going to go to the next week.

6:44 I'm going to go to the next week.

6:45 I'm going to go to the next week.

6:46 I'm going to go to the next week.

6:47 I'm going to go to the next week.

6:59 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

7:02 The earth was without form and void and darkness was over the face of the deep.

7:07 The spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

7:11 God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.

7:14 God saw that the light was good and God separated the light from the darkness.

7:19 God called the light day and the darkness he called night.

7:23 There was evening and there was morning the first day.

7:27 God said, "Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters and let it separate the waters from the waters."

7:34 God made the expanse and separated the waters that were under the expanse from the waters that were above the expanse.

7:40 And it was so, and God called the expanse heaven and there was evening and there was morning the second day.

7:46 And God said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place and let the dry land appear."

7:52 And it was so.

7:53 God called the dry land earth and the waters that were gathered together he called seas.

7:59 And God saw that it was good.

8:01 And God said, "Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit beat trees bearing fruit."

8:09 Which is their seed, each according to its kind.

8:13 On the earth and it was so.

8:15 The earth brought forth vegetation, plant yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind.

8:24 And God said that it was good, and there was evening and there was morning the third day.

8:29 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night,

8:36 and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years, and let them be lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light upon the earth."

8:43 And it was so.

8:44 And God made the two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, the lesser light to rule the night, and the stars.

8:51 And God set them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, to rule over the day and over the night,

8:57 and to separate the light from the darkness, and God saw that it was good.

9:01 And there was evening and there was morning the fourth day.

9:05 And God said, "Let the water swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the heavens."

9:12 So God created the great sea creatures in every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind.

9:22 And God saw that it was good, and God blessed them saying, "Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth."

9:32 And there was evening and there was morning the fifth day.

9:36 And God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds, livestock and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds, and it was so."

9:46 And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the livestock according to their kinds, and everything that creeps on the ground according to its kind.

9:55 And God saw that it was good.

9:57 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our lightness, and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the livestock and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

10:12 So God created man in his own image, and the image of God he created him, male and female he created them.

10:21 And God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

10:33 And God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit.

10:42 You shall have them for food, and to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the heavens, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food, and it was so."

10:56 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good.

11:00 And there was evening, and there was morning the sixth day.

11:03 Very nicely done. So guys, getting into this first part of Genesis, it's kind of become like a little bit of a meme joke on my show because I'm very vehement about the fact that we are not going to have a young earth, old earth debate on my show, because people have told me all the time, like, Kyle, you should have this guy on.

11:18 He's a young earth advocate. I want you to talk to him. I'm like, "Nah, not interested."

11:22 And then they're all like, "Hey, this is a guy who's an old earth guy, but he's a Christian, so you should have him."

11:26 And I'm like, "Nah, I'm just not that interested."

11:28 And the reason that I personally have not been that interested in it is because I hope that everyone on this debate can agree that we can't know for certain, that we can't prove it.

11:39 Like, we can't technically prove that we're having this conversation right now, that we are not in a simulation and all this type of stuff.

11:46 It can't be proven how the earth started because we have no tools by which to test that theory, no scientific method, because nobody was there, we didn't see it.

11:55 And so if you can come into it with that, then I'm interested in the conversation, because in doing the study of Genesis 1, you just run up against young earth, old earth.

12:05 Like, you just can't, you just can't escape it.

12:07 And so I feel like that's kind of the first thing that we should talk about.

12:10 So just in general, without any commentary, I want to kind of know where everyone at the table is, because I think I have a guess, but just if you had to put your flag down firmly on one side or even softly on one side, young earth, older, Jake.

12:23 Young earth, young earth, young earth, young earth, Ryan.

12:27 I hate this question.

12:28 You couldn't just say young earth or older, if you had to do something else.

12:31 Well, I'm sorry, young earth.

12:32 Okay.

12:33 So I guess I'm the only person here that would say, old earth, but for me, the my equivocation that I would say, is it depends on how you look at it?

12:41 And I'll get there in terms of what I think.

12:44 But for you guys, I'm curious kind of how you came to that, because Jake, you said something interesting before we started recording, is that you used to be old earth, but now you--

12:52 You are like staunchly younger.

12:55 So like, how did you go through that and did it just happen to be because you went and saw that big dumb boat in Kentucky or whatever that was?

13:01 Ken Ham got him.

13:02 Ken Ham got him.

13:03 Ken Ham got him.

13:04 Definitely, you know, the art museum and the creation museum, there was definitely a lot of, I mean, I've always, I was always old earth, and it just put so many pebbles in my shoes that I just feel like a good walk in that anymore.

13:14 What were some of the bigger pebbles?

13:16 Okay, so first, one of the things was Adam brings death into the world.

13:21 Okay, sin and death into the world.

13:23 And so the idea that there were things that made the animals that lived prior to the creation of man that would have died and become extinct would mean that Adam would not be bringing death into the world.

13:38 Agreed.

13:39 Second, there was also this idea that, okay, all of this vegetation supposedly exists because these animals were feeding on it.

13:47 Yet, we know in Genesis 1 that God created light.

13:51 And so the sun would literally have to have existed prior to when God actually created it.

13:57 So that was another issue that I have.

13:59 There's also some symbiotic relationships that you need for life that wouldn't have existed if like, let's say that these days weren't actual days.

14:06 So he creates plants, but we know that plants need pollen and bees weren't created.

14:18 So if these days were millions of years, literally these plants would not be able to pollinate.

14:24 So there's, there's three.

14:26 I don't know.

14:27 I probably keep going, but those are three of the big ones.

14:29 Or, you know, Google searched it and it says the oldest recorded history goes back just about 6,000 years.

14:36 The dinosaur soft tissues they found is very interesting to me.

14:40 How could soft tissue last for millions upon millions of years?

14:44 Yeah.

14:45 So, I mean, that's interesting to me and some of the radiometric dating kind of issues.

14:50 Carbon 14 being found in these fossils that should have been gone at 60,000 years, which is about the limit for carbon 14.

14:58 What about you?

14:59 Man, I just think it's a question or a thing that we get hung up on that we shouldn't.

15:04 I like what Marcus Dodd said.

15:06 It's not the object of the writers of scripture to impart physical instruction or to enlarge the bounds of scientific knowledge.

15:13 But if anyone wishes to know what connection the world has to God, it seeks to trace back all that now is to the very fountainhead of life.

15:21 If he decides to discover something unifying a principle or illuminating purpose.

15:28 I never really got into young earth.

15:30 I would say I'm young earth just because of what the Bible has to say.

15:34 But I'm kind of like one of those weird things that you probably would disagree with that.

15:39 When God created Adam, he didn't create Adam as a baby.

15:43 He created Adam as a man.

15:45 And so when he created the earth, what makes you think he didn't create the earth with some age and so on.

15:51 So I just think it's one of those mysteries that we'll never be able to understand.

15:55 And I don't think it's something that we're meant to.

15:57 God's going to have his way of doing things and we're just his mere creation.

16:02 So the fact that we think that we have the right to know or that we have the right answer, I think is just, what would the English say?

16:09 Poppycock, that is the first poppycock on this podcast.

16:15 Five dollar word.

16:16 I will say this, there are some awful young earth arguments and none of those were them.

16:22 Because probably the worst young earth argument that I can think of off top of my head is that God placed the fossils in the earth to test our faith.

16:32 And like guys, like really, like, so God gave us all these tools by which we can determine time only to pull the rug out from underneath us at the end and be like, "Gotcha!"

16:44 It's actually only 6,000 years old.

16:46 Like, so that's part of the issue.

16:48 I will say for me, I'm about to read more than I've ever read on this podcast before.

16:53 I had, I was completely agnostic about this and had no interest in it until probably, I don't know, this was pre-undaunted life.

17:00 This would have been maybe 10 years ago, I read a book called Genesis and the Big Bang.

17:04 It came out in 1991.

17:05 Did you guys, any of you guys read that?

17:07 Genesis and the Big Bang.

17:08 So the, and it's so weird that I can remember that the second chapter of this book blew my mind.

17:15 So I'll tell you right from the beginning.

17:16 I don't know that I'm smart enough to read this book, but I did.

17:18 I read it and then I reread it.

17:19 And so it's just kind of one of those things where you just read it and you're like, "I don't, I don't understand."

17:23 But I want to read a few sections here that kind of help undergird where I came to, because I feel like all of you gave a, a pretty good, I'll be a very short understanding of why, why you feel like young earth, because some people are like, the Bible says this.

17:36 So that's all there is to it.

17:37 It's like, that's not all there is to it.

17:39 And as we get into these first few chapters of Genesis, there are some things that need to be explained that can't be explained just by the text because I think we can all agree that Genesis 1 doesn't give us like an exhaustive detail of creation.

17:50 It doesn't tell us everything like which dinosaur was made first.

17:53 Like, you know, what a scientific book.

17:55 Right.

17:56 And so if you come to this as a scientific book, like this isn't a taxonomy book, like this isn't a political science book.

18:03 But I do want to read a couple of sections from chapter 2 of Genesis and the Big Bang.

18:07 And so if y'all will indulge me as I read words that are beyond me.

18:10 I'm seeing the notes right now.

18:12 Oh, you can see it.

18:13 Yeah.

18:14 You just sat me for every time.

18:15 It's fine.

18:16 It's only the bold.

18:17 I'm only reading the stuff.

18:18 Okay, that's good.

18:20 I was scared for a second.

18:21 The Bible gives God six days to form mankind from the material produced at the creation.

18:25 Current cosmology claims it even proves interesting wordies that nature took some 15 billion years to accomplish the same thing.

18:32 And that funny because they've changed that to like 24 billion since 1991.

18:35 Anyway, back to the text, which understanding is correct.

18:38 Both are literally with no allegorical modifications of these two simultaneous yet different time periods.

18:45 It is unequivocal six 24 hour days elapsed between the beginning.

18:50 That spec of time at the start of the Big Bang and the appearance of mankind.

18:54 And simultaneously, it took some 15 billion, 365 day years to get from the beginning or the Big Bang as astrophysicists call it to mankind.

19:06 A little bit later in chapter two.

19:08 So the biblical calendar for the time after Adam presents no problem to archaeology.

19:12 But what about pre Adam biblical chronology?

19:15 Can we integrate the biblical data with that presented by cosmology and paleontology for the period extending from the beginning to Adam?

19:23 Yes, we can, but only if we practice an exercise in logic that we refer to as stretching time.

19:29 This is a very the very heart of the matter.

19:32 How are we to stretch six days to encompass 15 billion years or the reverse?

19:36 How do we squeeze 15 billion years into six days?

19:38 This suggestion is not as absurd as it may appear at first.

19:42 In the Psalms of David, we read, "A thousand years in your eyes are as a day that passes."

19:47 That's Psalm 90 verse four.

19:49 This presents the possibility that God's perception of time is quite different from mankind's.

19:54 But the literal meaning of the verse is qualitative.

19:57 It has the feel of time seeming to pass at different rates for different participants in an event, but not necessarily being different in reality.

20:04 The verse in Psalms is reminiscent of the dilation of time dealt with in Einstein's revolutionary thought experiments.

20:10 Einstein demonstrated that when a single event is viewed from two frames of reference, a thousand or even a billion years in one can indeed pass for days in another.

20:20 The basis we seek for matching the biblical and cosmological calendars is in fact partly found in relativity.

20:27 But Einstein's theory is no longer a theory. It is an empirical observed reality. Einstein's law of relativity tells us that dimensions in space and the passage of time are not absolute.

20:38 Their measurements in an intimate function of the relationship between the observer and the observed.

20:42 It seems incomprehensible that flow of time, which is so constant in our daily lives, can actually change, but it can.

20:50 And this is the last section I'll read here. Hopefully this isn't putting anyone to sleep.

20:53 Now, if there are only six days prior to Adam, how do we squeeze all the cycles of formation and destruction of worlds into the allotted time?

21:01 The biblical commentators on whom we realized it explicitly that their first six days of Genesis were six 24-hour days.

21:08 This means that whoever was in charge recorded the passage of 24 hours per day.

21:13 But who was there to measure the passage of time? Until Adam appeared on day six, God alone was watching the clock.

21:20 And that is the key. During the development of our universe and prior to the appearance of mankind, God had not yet established a close association with the earth.

21:29 For the first one or two days of the six days of Genesis, the earth didn't even exist.

21:34 Although Genesis 1-1 says in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, the very next verse says that the earth was void and unformed.

21:41 The first verse of Genesis is a general statement, meaning that in the beginning a primeval substance was created, and from the substance the heavens and the earth would be made during the subsequent six days.

21:51 This is explicitly stated later in Exodus 31-17, for six days God made the heavens and the earth.

21:57 From what were the heavens and the earth made during those six days?

22:01 From the substance created in the beginning of those six days.

22:04 Because there was no earth in the early universe and no possibility of an intimate tie or a blending of a reference frame,

22:10 there was no common calendar between God and the earth.

22:14 Relativity has taught us that there was not even a divine option of choosing a calendar that would eventually be compatible with all the various parts of the universe,

22:21 or even with the more limited number of parts that eventually contributed to mankind.

22:25 The law of relativity, one of the inherent traits of the universe established at its creation, makes it impossible for a common reference frame to have existed between the creator and each part of the mix of matter that eventually became mankind on the earth on which we stand.

22:39 According to Einstein's law of relativity, we now know it is impossible in an expanding universe to describe the elapsed time experienced during a sequence of events occurring in one part of the universe in a way that will be equal to the elapsed time for those same events that are viewed from another part of the universe.

22:57 The differences in motions and gravitational forces among the various galaxies or even among the stars of a single galaxy make the absolute passage of time that's key the absolute passage of time, a very local affair, time differs from place to place.

23:11 So I know I'm filibustering here just a little bit, but to just drive home kind of where I'm at and again, I'm not going to, I'm not going to die on this hill.

23:18 I'm open to everything that you guys have said.

23:20 But John Linux has also really formed my opinions on this. He has a book called seven days that divide the world, and he's a very fair observer of everybody and all the different things that we look out here.

23:31 And so he says that there are basically there are more than three, but there are basically three main views of the Genesis days.

23:37 There's the 24 hour view, which are the days are seven 24 hour days of one earth week about 6000 years ago, the day age view, which is the days are in chronological order each representing a period of time of unspecified the length.

23:52 And then the framework view, which is the days exhibit a logical rather than chronological order. So I'm going to read something from page 65 and 66 of that book so that I think that this is important, especially with the foundation I set with the previous passages I read.

24:06 This is from John Linux, seven days that divide the world page 65.

24:11 In the three part structure of Genesis 1 1 to 2 3 mentioned above, the initial creation act of Genesis 1 1 and Genesis 1 2 is separated from the six days of creation that follow it.

24:23 You will find this structure followed, for instance, in the sectionalized scheme used in the English standard version, which we're all reading from the separation between the first two parts is underlined by the fact that there is a change of past tenses

24:35 between them in the original language. The verb created in Genesis 1 1 is in the perfect tense and the normal use of the perfect at a very beginning of a periscope is to denote an event that took place before the storyline gets underway.

24:49 Accordingly, there is a switch to the narrative tense beginning in verse three. It is therefore linguistically plausible, though admittedly not so obvious that the beginning of Genesis 1 1 was not necessarily intended to be understood as part of day one

25:04 as it as frequently assumed. The initial creation could have taken place before day one, but Genesis does not tell us how long before, nor does 1 1 to 1 2 tell us how long the creation of the heavens and the earth took.

25:17 Indeed, the astrophysicists would indicate that the heavens existed a long time before the earth, which means that the question of the age of the earth and of the universe may be a separate question from the interpretation of the days, a point that is frequently overlooked.

25:31 In other words, quite apart from any scientific considerations, the text of Genesis 1 1 in separating the beginning from day one leaves the age of the universe indeterminate.

25:42 Sad, therefore, that there has been so much fighting over the issue that has done nothing to commend the rationality and truth of Christianity to a world that isn't remotely interested in such details anyway.

25:53 It should remind us of the principle that there is always a danger of understanding a text to say less than it does as well as a danger of making it say more.

26:03 He essentially made that point when he came on my show, because I got to ask him one question about young earth, old earth, and he kind of, he didn't dismiss the question and I have his quote here, but you guys can go back and listen to it.

26:13 That's episode 365 365 with John Linux called can science explain everything. And so again, I know that that took quite some time. But again, for me, I get comfort from that comfort from knowing we can't possibly know that if you look at if you read the rest of Genesis

26:28 in the Big Bang, it's explaining how like, if you shoot a laser against a piece of glass and it bounces off and it does this and then you kind of do this formula between this space and that space, depending upon where you're looking at that experiment, you will get distance and time completely different.

26:42 And so I'm completely okay with saying that if someone says the earth was created in six days, yes, was earth created in 24 something billion years.

26:51 Also, yes, like everything was created and I don't mean that as like a yes and and all that. I'm like, Oh, yeah, everything's true and it's all relative. I don't mean that is that depending upon your perspective and knowing that we can't have God's perspective.

27:03 I'm cool with either way. I'm not cool with people saying you're not a Christian and you don't believe in the sufficiency of the word of God if you don't believe the way that I believe. So that took a while, but there you go.

27:15 Yeah, I mean, one of the things that I would actually doing a Bible study over Ecclesiastes 7 right now, and I think one of the points that kind of came up in there is the earth is not some sort of predictable machine.

27:29 Okay, I think a lot of times we have these scientific discoveries and we say, now we know how this works. And then, you know, a century later, they go, well, that actually isn't how it works.

27:40 And now here's what we know. And I think when you start thinking of the earth as not some sort of predictable machine where God just set it in motion and then stepped away, but you start thinking of it as a personally governed and complex space.

27:55 I think that actually can kind of make you pause a little bit and start thinking of, okay, maybe some of these discoveries, maybe, I mean, you know, the theory of relativity, you know, never thought about it in that way.

28:09 But I mean, I have always said that you can fit young earth into young earth just by the idea that God can create things with age in them. But at the same time, you can also now with theory of relativity is like, well, now I can fit young earth into old earth.

28:26 I mean, there is that concept. So I think when you start looking at things and start going, maybe this is just a giant mystery we're not meant to know.

28:35 And we're living just in a personally governed space and just use the opportunity of scientific discovery as an opportunity to worship a pretty awesome one.

28:43 Well, the thing about we're not meant to know, I think that's the key because that means you're bringing humility into a discussion, but also intellectual honesty that know this can't be proven.

28:51 And if, because I've listened to hours and hours of debate on young earth, older, that's why I became so disinterested in it because it's kind of same thing with, you know, Calvinism, Armenianism, you listen to these people debate for hours and then they come away more entrenched in what they felt beforehand.

29:04 So you feel like maybe they didn't bring a whole lot of curiosity or intellectual honesty into the conversation.

29:09 But I don't know anyone.

29:11 So it seems like this, and y'all can correct me from your perspective.

29:14 Old earth people look at young earth people like, Oh, God, you rubes, like you absolute morons, like, look at all this stuff, but then you don't have a college degree.

29:22 Right.

29:23 But then young earth people look at old earth people like, Oh my God, you're all pagans.

29:27 You're all satanic.

29:28 Like, and I'm just like, neither one of these is healthy.

29:31 Like neither one of these is good because we can't know it.

29:34 But I will say from the young earth people, I feel like it's a little bit more annoying because they will basically challenge older people and say, like, look, you don't believe in the sufficiency of scripture.

29:43 If you don't believe it, that it's these literal words.

29:46 And I'm like, well, where do we begin the literalness of reading the Bible and non-literalness?

29:50 Like, is Jesus actually a vine?

29:51 Is he a door that we need to knock on?

29:53 Oh, well, no, no, that's allegory.

29:54 It's like, well, but you're saying the same thing here because if you hold the gap theory in any way, shape, or form, you say, Hey, we don't know how long of a gap there was between Genesis 1, 1 and Genesis 1, 2, people think that's anathema.

30:05 I think it's crazy.

30:06 Yeah.

30:07 But I appreciate the Christopher Nolan rundown of old earth.

30:11 What's that?

30:12 He just gave us.

30:13 You ever seen an earth stellar?

30:14 Well, yeah.

30:15 Is that what it kind of felt like?

30:16 Is that an Hathaway said in that movie?

30:18 No, it was like an Hathaway.

30:19 But it's like, you know what?

30:20 We don't even know if there could be a stinking black hole, like, 6,000 years ago.

30:24 That was like messed with time and relativity and whatnot.

30:27 So like, I think it, I think it's...

30:29 So the Christopher Nolan comment was not a compliment is what you're saying.

30:31 Oh, it was a compliment.

30:32 Oh, it is.

30:33 It actually is.

30:34 Dude, Christopher Nolan is the greatest director of all time.

30:36 Until the last few.

30:37 But, you know, anybody watch Oppenheimer?

30:39 It's like three hours.

30:40 Oppenheimer was good.

30:41 I liked it.

30:42 Okay.

30:43 We don't have to get off on that.

30:44 There was a couple scenes that didn't need to be in there.

30:46 Like five.

30:47 There were like five when they didn't need to be in there.

30:49 But yeah.

30:50 But no, but when I think about it, you know, it's just, it's like, I think you're right.

30:56 It's like, we can't just sit here and dwell on who's right and who's wrong.

31:00 And I don't like it that when people say that, hey, if you're an old earther, you don't believe

31:04 in scripture, you know, it's just, just trying to, like, we went on the Christopher Nolan.

31:10 And I, I lost where I was thinking with this, but it's, I think that's where I was getting

31:18 at in the beginning.

31:19 It's like, we don't know.

31:20 And we don't sometimes deserve to know.

31:22 And the fact is, I think we're so full of ourselves sometimes that we think we have the

31:25 answer.

31:26 Like science is fallible.

31:29 But Christ isn't.

31:30 God isn't.

31:31 God, God did this the way he wanted to do it.

31:34 And you're never going to figure it out.

31:35 And the fact that you keep trying and trying and trying and trying, why?

31:40 My answer is why.

31:41 It seems futile.

31:42 Christian.

31:43 I mean, look, Christianity isn't really about what you believe.

31:46 It's about who you know.

31:47 Well, yeah.

31:48 That's what I was talking about with dots, you know, yeah, we can, we can disagree on

31:52 the age of the earth.

31:53 We can disagree on predestination.

31:55 We can disagree on spiritual gifts.

31:58 Aliens.

31:59 I mean, Bigfoot.

32:00 I mean, there's all sorts of things that people are going to believe.

32:03 We aren't even big.

32:04 You're not.

32:05 I'm just saying there's, I mean, Christians can hold a varying array of beliefs.

32:11 But it's the more important thing is who you know.

32:14 I mean, look, I believe every word in the Bible, I do.

32:17 But there are a lot of Christ followers who don't have access to a Bible.

32:21 Yeah.

32:22 They don't have access to scripture, but they are still Christians and I mean, heck, you

32:25 could literally mark the first couple centuries of the faith.

32:30 They did not have a Bible.

32:31 They had scrolls and speaking, you know, and just testimony.

32:35 This first chapter isn't about the scientific explanation of how God created the earth.

32:41 This chapter is about the fact that you were created by God.

32:44 That's it.

32:45 And that's what it is.

32:46 And I think earth and everything was created by God.

32:50 You'll never figure it out.

32:51 When the point you're making for, for young earth people that are anti-science that think,

32:54 like, no, we can't have any scientific explanation for anything.

32:57 Guys, realize that science is God's gift to us to help us understand a modicum of what

33:03 he did.

33:04 Yeah.

33:05 I agree with that.

33:06 Like that's, that's an absolute gift to us to where we can look at these things.

33:08 And that's why when people are like, Oh, well, the dating's all off and this is all junk

33:11 and you can't believe all that.

33:12 It's like, man, slow your role.

33:14 You don't even, you can barely pronounce the words in that textbook.

33:17 So I don't know why you're dismissing an entire, you know, field of study for that purpose.

33:22 Browning thoughts.

33:23 Why are you so disengaged with the young earth?

33:26 Do you seem so disinterested with this?

33:28 No, no, no, no.

33:29 I'm very, very interested.

33:30 You guys have said a lot of good things.

33:32 I was just thinking like on the, I mean, you guys are going down a slightly different

33:36 path, but I was just thinking like practically like I've got a kid that's in high school.

33:38 So what am I doing?

33:39 Like to make sure that he's at least protected.

33:43 His mind is protected from what he's being taught.

33:45 I mean, the geologic column, which when you look at that, just, you know, it's frustrating

33:49 because it seems like it's still being taught and yet it, it has its own huge problems.

33:54 It was created by two guys, one, which was an atheist that was, his hell bent on getting

33:59 rid of the whole Moses, you know, whatever, whatever he called it, you know, so he, he

34:04 was trying to move away from Christians believing this whole younger thing and whatever.

34:11 So you know, just like, I think it's important that we understand when our kids are learning

34:14 in school, not that we have to get huge debates about it and whatnot, but that there are problems

34:20 that are still being taught, you know, to our kids from a science-based perspective

34:25 that they're huge holes in those arguments.

34:28 So just like you're saying, like, I mean, Christians will make bad arguments about young

34:32 earth.

34:33 I mean, there's a lot of evolutionary guys that are making terrible arguments still that

34:37 are in our textbooks today that just don't hold up the grand scheme of things.

34:41 And that's why I think it's important again, like, Eric, you know, I've talked about this

34:45 so much to where, like, if you put your kids in any school, regardless, if it's public

34:50 or private Christian or like, if you just go to sleep at the wheel and you're not paying

34:55 attention to the curriculum and you're not paying attention to the conversations of the

34:57 things that your kids are being taught, you could potentially be setting yourself up and

35:00 your kid up for a lot of pain to get into the actual text here.

35:04 I think the one thing that's important is the first four words in the beginning God, like

35:10 I literally drew a line and a line like, you know, let's just separate that.

35:14 I feel like those first four words are more plausible than any argument I've heard from

35:21 any strict materialist, like a strict materialist atheist, because the thing is is strict materialist

35:28 atheists like a Richard Dawkins or someone like that, they're like miracles are ridiculous.

35:33 It's like, okay, you believe in one miracle.

35:38 You believe that time, space, and matter came into existence in a timeless, spaceless, immaterial

35:44 way.

35:45 So you believe in one miracle.

35:47 And so my question to that person would be why do you believe in one miracle, not several

35:51 or multiple?

35:52 And then to the Christian that's like, no, the big bang's not not true.

35:56 Don't you think this is all this sounds pretty bangy, like as you were reading, like it sounds

36:01 like a bang actually happened.

36:03 So this is interesting, so Sir Fred Hoyle was like the leading scientist on steady state

36:10 universalism, which is essentially the universe has been here.

36:13 It was always here and forever will be here.

36:16 That was his scientific theory.

36:18 It wanted he was one of the biggest proponents of that scientific theory.

36:21 And when the big bang theory was introduced as a possibility for the creation of the universe,

36:27 Sir Fred Hoyle literally said that it smacked of deism.

36:31 When it came out, the idea was like, well, that just sounds like you're saying that

36:35 God created the universe and it's just always been here.

36:38 So it's interesting now that so many atheists point to the big bang is like the alternative

36:43 to Genesis when the scientists who originally debating it were saying that that was way

36:47 more of an argument for God than what they were doing before.

36:50 Right.

36:51 I mean, it was straight up void.

36:52 There was nothing.

36:53 It was like it's not like God took a bunch of things already created by somebody else or

36:58 something else and formed the earth and formed the heavens and the earth.

37:02 No, like he created the bangs to come together and create what it was.

37:07 You know, it's like, it's like thinking back at like us being created as man, like we came

37:10 from dirt, like God created the dirt before he created us.

37:16 So like he's always creating something that comes together that molds and brings something

37:20 else together.

37:21 And like, that's what like, I always hate the analogy of like, Hey, the earth was just

37:26 like this blank canvas, you know, and God and God painted the earth.

37:29 And it's like, no, God created the canvas, then he created the thread to make the canvas

37:34 and then he created this and that and that.

37:36 So you had a canvas, like he created something out of nothing and just think of the sheer,

37:42 the sheer, like ingenuity and thought and everything when we go and look outside.

37:46 Like when I'm outside, sometimes when we're doing our trips for sand and stone, or I went

37:52 to a cabin recently with my wife and I was just sat outside and I was like, look at this

37:55 beauty.

37:56 Like he created this, like this came from his mind.

37:59 My mind doesn't even think this way, you know, you know, the basic questions that all my

38:03 kids have come down to, you know, or asked me is like, how did, how did all this get

38:08 here?

38:09 You know, how did and how and why does, what does my teachers say that it came from a big,

38:15 a big bang?

38:16 If if I can, something come from nothing, I mean, it's like, it's a simple question.

38:21 Nobody can answer that.

38:22 Once you come from a biblical standpoint, you know, one right there, wanted to go ahead

38:26 and slam dunk that shout out.

38:27 So sand to stone, it's got us sand and stone.

38:31 That's okay.

38:32 Now you kind of monitor so nobody got it.

38:33 But yeah, so like, so if you're looking for guys, it's sand in the number two stone dot

38:37 us sand to stone dot us.

38:39 So that's one thing where Eric, uh, lovely Eric Browning over here from foraging tape,

38:43 from forging table fame, takes a father's and sons out into the wilderness and there's

38:47 all kinds of different rights of passage and different things like that.

38:50 So one of the things you're doing is you're forcing, you know, guys that are normally

38:53 just slumming around, you know, in, you know, their, their office and their house and doing

38:57 all these different things.

38:58 You're getting them out into nature, putting them into slightly uncomfortable situations

39:02 and scenarios and things like that.

39:04 But when you think I never think of myself too small, unless I'm thinking about the gospel

39:09 or in nature, because when I'm walking to a deer stand in the middle of the night, I

39:14 feel pretty darn small because I don't know what's out there and I hear a rustling.

39:17 It's probably a squirrel might be a Sasquatch with teeth.

39:19 Like I have no idea.

39:20 And I'm terrified or when you're looking at a mountain or the Grand Canyon or some sort

39:24 of like, you know, the ocean, gosh, you know, whenever you're on a, if you've ever been

39:28 on a cruise and you have a cruise day, where it's like the whole day you're just that

39:31 senior just looking out there in the ocean, you're like, there's nothing for me out there.

39:34 Like, if I were to fall off of this, there's nothing for me that is sustainable.

39:38 Like this is not the earth that I was, that was created in dude, I'm terrified by what's

39:42 underneath it.

39:43 Everybody's worried about stuff flying through the sky.

39:44 I think the aliens are in the ocean, y'all.

39:45 I was like, if anything, like this is what, what was the second movie that James Cameron

39:50 made?

39:51 Or not the abyss, friggin, the blue people, Avatar, like that's what's happening under

39:56 there.

39:57 But it's all evil, like demon like dinosaurs that are still under there.

39:59 Because I'm the Titanic.

40:00 Because guess what?

40:01 The flood didn't kill them.

40:02 The flood just gave them more room to play, y'all.

40:04 They're still in there.

40:05 I'm telling y'all.

40:06 Nobody believes me.

40:07 You're not scared of the oceans.

40:08 I just had a thought about Titanic.

40:10 That's all.

40:11 What's your thought?

40:12 We got to go.

40:13 Great movie.

40:14 Rose, is that like 90 or 9 years old?

40:17 And she doesn't think about her husband or her kids through life.

40:23 She just thinks about some guy she met on a boat that she had a fling with.

40:27 Like her last moments in life.

40:30 You know what I'm saying?

40:31 Like it's pretty sad.

40:32 It's been 84 years.

40:33 You just ruined that movie for like everybody.

40:36 Because yes, we did it.

40:37 It's 2024 and you haven't seen Titanic.

40:39 Bro, her heart will go on.

40:41 How dare you?

40:42 Like what's wrong with you?

40:43 I was like, I was like, that's the worst storyline ever.

40:47 You have, you have no sense of the romantic.

40:50 That's what you have.

40:51 I'm not a romantic.

40:52 You have a problem.

40:53 Yeah.

40:54 My wife would disagree.

40:55 I'm pretty romantic.

40:56 Shall we get Mrs. Horn on the show, see if we can confirm or deny?

41:00 Well, hey, let's get back to the text here.

41:02 The other interesting thing that I saw, so first of all, I just want to tee it up to

41:05 you guys here in a second to just, I know all of you found nuggets whenever studying Genesis

41:10 one.

41:11 Before we get out here, I definitely wanted us to talk about the Dominion Mandate at the

41:14 end where we get the Amango Day and things like that.

41:17 But just even like a little nugget, you know, in the beginning God, the word God there used

41:20 the Hebrew word as plural.

41:22 So it's denoting his majesty, which kind of leads to at the end because there's a lot

41:26 of ink that's been spilled about.

41:29 Then God said, let us make man an hour image and they're like, oh my gosh, like God's non-binary

41:34 has split personality disorder.

41:36 It's like, no, like, you know, he could be referring to Trinity, you know, talking about,

41:40 you know, himself, his son, the Holy Spirit, God, Trinity, you know, that's the plural

41:45 of majesty.

41:46 He could be talking to the heavenly hosts.

41:47 He could be talking to the angels, but we'll get into the Dominion Mandate.

41:51 But there's so many nuggets here in Genesis one.

41:53 So I'm just interested.

41:54 Let's get into some nuggets.

41:55 Boom.

41:56 God's first words.

41:57 His first word was boom.

41:58 No.

41:59 Okay.

42:00 I just want to make sure I know what you're saying.

42:02 This is like when I was like reading it, I was like, man, these were God's first words.

42:06 Let there be light and I just think back to John one one in the beginning was the word

42:12 and the word was with God and the word was God.

42:15 He was in the beginning.

42:16 He was in the beginning with God.

42:18 All things came into him into being through him and apart from him, not even one thing

42:23 came into being that was that has come into being in him was life and the life was the

42:28 light of mankind and the light shines in the darkness and the darkness did not grasp it.

42:34 Like it was void.

42:36 It was dark.

42:37 Like we think about like when we think about good and evil and we'll go through the tree

42:41 of good and evil, there's light and there's darkness.

42:44 And luckily in the garden, we were, you know, Adam and Eve were oblivious to the darkness

42:49 because all they saw was the light.

42:50 They saw God and that was the first thing he created was light and darkness.

42:54 And so or darkness was he already created darkness, but then he created light.

42:58 So you could be out of the darkness.

43:00 And so I just thought that was like a really amazing thing to look at.

43:04 I love how and we'll get into it.

43:05 I think later on it how then God then allows Adam to co-create with him by naming the animals.

43:11 So he uses his words to create, right?

43:14 Yep.

43:15 I think that's wonderful.

43:16 I mean, I think about James of how, you know, it talks about how our words can bring life

43:22 and bring death, depending on how we use them.

43:25 I think that's it's a great corollary if you jump forward to the New Testament.

43:30 So and just the whole idea, like when we get into, we'll go into caverns every once

43:33 while I'm getting complete darkness and just let everybody sit there and just let their

43:38 eyes like search for something that they can't find.

43:41 And then you just the tiniest little light will turn it on and it just illuminates everybody's

43:44 eyes go directly to it.

43:46 It can't help it.

43:47 So anyways.

43:48 But when he calls like when he creates light, he says it is good.

43:51 Like that's the first thing that's good is light.

43:54 Like the contrast between light and darkness.

43:56 And so I think like when we look at the word that we're reading, like we're sitting here,

43:59 we're reading the Bible and like this is the light.

44:02 This is his word and mandate.

44:04 So that's what I that's what I felt before and we'll get into the Winkler nugget here

44:08 in a second.

44:09 But that whenever I was listening to it this morning, I was just kind of like, man, if

44:14 more people actually considered this to be the word of God, I would say more people would

44:18 read it because there is a scriptural reading deficiency in modern Christian.

44:22 I forget if it was, I forget what Barna or whatever group did the study, but they talked

44:27 about some of the beliefs that Christians hold to, like that, you know, Jesus isn't the

44:33 only way to the father and like there was, there was just a slaundry list as people are

44:37 reading it.

44:38 It's like, if you're an evangelical, you're just like, how, how could somebody come to

44:41 these ideas?

44:42 It's because they have a cultural understanding of Christianity and no understanding of biblical

44:46 Christianity.

44:47 Right.

44:48 And so it's like when you're talking to someone about Christianity, I think it's appropriate

44:51 to stop and be like, Hey, can you describe what Christianity is real quick as I may not

44:55 like that version either, because I think Jay, who was sitting right there where Eric

44:58 was when Jay was doing the stuff in Acts, he was like, Hey, can you describe God, because

45:02 you know, you're an atheist, you're angry at this, you know, God character, can you describe

45:06 what you think God is?

45:07 Because I probably don't believe in that gun either.

45:08 So like, let's make sure we're starting at the same place.

45:10 So I mean, just to go off what you said though, and we get to Jake's thing is that I think

45:15 that's where we lose like this is why I want to get into Genesis is we lose sight of God

45:20 being the creator.

45:21 Well, that's one thing that we actually for I forgot to tee up at the very beginning

45:24 is why did we even decide to do this because we would typically like round table and kind

45:29 of figure out, Oh, do we want to get in and we had talked about Romans a little bit, but

45:32 then like Genesis just kind of emerged for us as like, gosh, we at some point, we got

45:36 to go back to the beginning.

45:37 We got to start with the origins.

45:38 I feel like we had to go back to getting there's a lot of similarities in Genesis that happens

45:43 throughout the Bible.

45:45 And so starting with Genesis is a great thing, but I think what we have to understand is

45:48 like, I feel with cultural Christianity nowadays, like I hear it a lot and there's truth in

45:52 it.

45:53 You know, God is the father of his children, his children are the ones who believe in him.

45:57 You know, but we have to remember that everybody, whether they believe or not, is still God's

46:02 creation.

46:03 God is a creator.

46:04 Yeah.

46:05 He created you.

46:06 You are you are the mold.

46:07 You are the clay and he created you.

46:10 And that's where we go back to Romans two 12, wait, no, there was, I guess I didn't write

46:19 it down.

46:20 Oh, there it is.

46:21 Isaiah 45 nine, what are the one who corals with his maker, a piece of pottery among the

46:25 other earth where pottery pieces?

46:27 Will the clay say to the potter, what are you doing?

46:30 Or the thing you are making say he has no hands.

46:34 And so I feel like we've come to that and cultural Christianity that we're talking back

46:39 to the potter and we're not taking what the potter has to say to us.

46:43 You know, we're like creating our own potter.

46:45 Yeah.

46:46 So kind of going back to what you were mentioning earlier, like, why do you pick this book?

46:50 This is the foundation of scripture.

46:52 It's literally the foundation.

46:55 It's got over 200 quotes or references to it in just the New Testament alone.

47:00 Jesus referred to it on 11 different occasions.

47:03 Every New Testament author refers back to Genesis in one way or another.

47:09 If you think about it, if Genesis isn't true, then Jesus is essentially lying.

47:14 And because it is the foundational scripture, the rest of the Bible would collapse without

47:18 the truth of Genesis.

47:20 So I mean, I think I kind of look at it, Matthew 724, 7, wise man builds his foundation on

47:25 solid rock in Genesis is the solid rock of scripture.

47:29 It's all built on that.

47:30 That's great.

47:31 That's awesome.

47:33 So here, if we have more nuggets and if we have time, we'll get into it, but I definitely

47:37 want to make sure we get into the dominion mandate because obviously I'm, I'm just obsessed

47:41 with the word dominion, kind of the dominion mandate.

47:44 So when you go back to verse 26, God said, let us make man in our image after our likeness

47:49 and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens

47:52 and over the livestock over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on

47:56 the earth.

47:57 And we got creeping things coming in the scripture for sure.

47:59 So God created man in his own image.

48:01 That's the Amago day.

48:03 So if you hear people say Amago day, that's I am a G.O.

48:06 space.

48:07 Dei.

48:08 Ooh, dei.

48:09 Amago day.

48:10 Amago day in the image of God.

48:12 He created him male and female.

48:14 He created them.

48:16 And so we are in this political moment where even saying something like that is, is so

48:20 unbelievably, you know, just seen as like so scandalous and things like that.

48:25 But guys, even, even strict atheists will talk about how sexual dimorphism in, in animals

48:35 is older than old, like it's, it's older than anything.

48:38 Like if there is not sexual dimorphism, like the separation of male and female, then there

48:43 is nothing else because we can't have a propagation of a single species without sexual dimorphism.

48:50 And so that, I mean, that's how we get back to that.

48:52 But to go back to dominion, we see the dominion mandate elucidated more in verse 28.

48:57 And God bless them and God said to them, here are your mandates, one, be fruitful, two,

49:02 multiply three, fill the earth, four, subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the

49:07 seed over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.

49:11 And so for us guys, that's why I'm, that might be, even as I'm just kind of, you know, verbally

49:16 processing it right now, because I get asked the one when I go on other podcasts or stuff

49:19 like that, like, why are you so like obsessed with like men's ministry and like getting,

49:23 even though I don't use that phraseology anymore, because it's so like jacked with all these

49:27 wrong ideas, why are you so interested in men like leveling up and getting better, being

49:31 better husbands, being better fathers, being, being all these different things.

49:34 I think it's because like, I can't stand it when people aren't doing the things that

49:37 they're supposed to do when guys aren't living up to their potential.

49:40 Like I remember, because again, I'm, I'm verbally intelligent, but I'm not like intelligent

49:44 intelligent.

49:45 Like I'm not like, you know, 35 on my ACT type intelligence.

49:48 And so like I can kind of trick people, but when you see people that have like some serious

49:52 mental horsepower and they're just, they just suck as humans, like they'd rather play Dungeons

49:57 and Dragons and you know, watch porn and jerk off and eat Doritos and like this is just

50:02 like these people, they're just wasting.

50:04 And because again, I was five to 170 pounds trying to play, you know, six a baseball and

50:09 things like that.

50:10 And it's like, all right, there's no more growing that's happening here.

50:13 And then you see the kid that six foot three, that looks like he was cut out of a piece

50:17 of granite.

50:18 And he just doesn't really want to try hard because he's never really had to.

50:21 And you just like, give me my drive with that, you know, genetics and like my life would

50:27 be so different.

50:28 But again, you know, God has different plans for everybody and things like that.

50:31 That's part of the thing here is I feel like so many people are ignoring their dominion

50:34 mandate on a macro level and certainly on a micro level that it leads to kind of where

50:38 we're at right now where everything's a mess.

50:41 Thoughts?

50:42 Yeah.

50:43 I mean, there's definitely, I mean, I've never thought of it that way, but really what you're

50:51 talking about here is like accountability.

50:54 I mean, dominion is nothing more than like you're accountable.

50:58 I mean, God is giving us stewardship over the resources of the earth here and we're accountable

51:04 to those things.

51:05 But at the same time, there's so many things.

51:07 I mean, I got to, I mean, so often I actually keep saying like, I feel like people are allergic

51:13 to accountability now.

51:14 It's every time, every setting, every setting.

51:17 And so, you know, to the going back to the point of like the person who's been given these

51:22 great gifts and it's like, well, if you, if I just could put my drive in them, then my

51:27 gosh, like how, how great would they be?

51:30 And it's like, you've been given this.

51:33 What are you doing with it?

51:34 God's given you dominion over this gifted in itself and you've just decided to spoil

51:38 it.

51:39 And I mean, I see it all the time.

51:42 Well, you as a manager, you're trying to get people to, yeah, because you end up wanting

51:46 it more than they do.

51:47 I think I've told this, this story before, but I had a guy, he came to our, our, you

51:51 know, fight club thing on Sunday night and I could see it written all over his dumb face

51:55 when he was walking up to me after, you know, after just getting, you know, pounded on

51:59 and just like dying during the entire workout.

52:01 And he walks up and he goes, Hey, Kyle, and I go, no.

52:05 And he goes, what, I go, no.

52:09 He's like, well, I didn't even say anything.

52:10 I was like, you were coming up to me to ask me to help you get in shape, weren't you?

52:13 He's like, well, yeah, I'm like, not interested.

52:16 No, thank you.

52:17 And he was very taken aback by that.

52:20 And you know, then I just kind of, I said, dude, you have a super computer in your pocket,

52:25 like you, you've got all these things at your disposal.

52:28 You make a good living, go figure it out for six months, go figure it out, go, like, go,

52:32 go find a workout thing, go hire a trainer, join a new gym, set up a home gym, do something

52:36 like that.

52:37 Like come back in six months, then I'll help you like, I'll help you sharpen the sword.

52:40 I'm not going to help you find it.

52:42 Like that, like that's the, the big difference I told this guy because I've wanted it more

52:46 than other people have wanted it throughout my entire life.

52:49 And guys would want to get in shape.

52:50 They'd come to me as like, I was going to be their savior.

52:53 I was going to make the plan for them.

52:55 I was going to help them figure out the modalities.

52:56 I was going to help them figure out the injuries and all those types of things.

52:58 And I gave so much effort to these people.

53:01 And they gave basically a little bit of effort at the beginning and then it died off after

53:04 like a week or two.

53:05 And I'm like, I just, I don't have time for that.

53:07 And I don't have like the emotional bandwidth to like be disappointed by people like that

53:12 anymore.

53:13 And the same thing goes with all other things.

53:15 You want something for your sons and it doesn't quite work out.

53:18 You want something for people in a sales scenario and it doesn't quite work out because you

53:21 want it more than they do.

53:22 You've got an underling that's working for you that you're just like, if you gave 50%

53:27 of your brain to this process, like you would, you would do yourself and this company so

53:31 well.

53:32 And I'm just like, I'm over like wanting it for someone else.

53:35 I will help you if you want it.

53:38 But if you don't want it, I ain't going to try to make you want it.

53:40 I get it, Kyle.

53:41 I'm going to try and do the 10 pull ups.

53:42 I promise you.

53:43 That's not what I was saying.

53:44 That's not what I was getting around to.

53:45 It's not what I was getting around to.

53:46 But you know, I do require 10 pull ups of everyone that's in my presence for more than

53:50 an hour.

53:51 Yeah.

53:52 I think I think people get beaten down by performance expectations.

53:57 I think this is part of the problem in life is that people expect people to perform for

54:04 them.

54:05 And we live in a society in a world where we cannot we can't ever we're not going to make

54:12 it very happy.

54:13 There's always going to be, okay, you did this, but now you got to do this or you just

54:17 okay, but you could do better.

54:19 So I do think people get beaten down by this expectation for performance.

54:23 I think the perspective is that and it's I mean, here it is in Genesis one is that we

54:29 don't work for or do things for ourselves or for other people.

54:33 We do it strictly for God and when we talk about stewardship, we are being good stewards

54:37 of what God has given us, not so that we can get approval from man, but that we can we

54:42 can get approval from God or at least be satisfied in working out what he's given us.

54:49 So like, you know, simple simple things like we have certain expectation, minimal expectations

54:54 for grades, but I tell my kids, I was like, you don't I don't want you to go get A's and

55:00 and B's for me.

55:02 Don't do it for mom and really don't do it for yourself.

55:05 Do it because God gave you a brain to have wonder of what what he's put in this earth

55:11 for you to discover or what has been discovered is now being passed on.

55:15 Just a wonder in that and seek him through school, be a good story to give him through

55:21 sports.

55:23 You know, what I I was just thinking as we were sitting back here, like, well, I hope

55:26 someday that I have the opportunity to sit in a heavenly theater and get to see God.

55:31 Amen.

55:32 Let's go.

55:33 Let's go.

55:34 Man, I just want to see how that went down.

55:35 Gosh, I just bring so much joy just thinking that I might get to do that someday.

55:39 And I want to see the the epic movie of my life of the stuff that I couldn't see.

55:46 Yeah.

55:47 So those times when I was so [inaudible] off that I couldn't find my phone and here I am going

55:51 through the house, destroying it, trying to find my phone and I've used this example before.

55:55 But if I had had my phone in my pocket and I got my truck, I would have been at that

55:58 intersection where that 18 Wheeler didn't see the red light and went right through it

56:03 and then I would be warm food, right?

56:05 I've I've seen so many of those things.

56:06 I told you all the story about forging table, Matt Grasmer and I were doing some work together

56:09 in college, you know, with this elementary school and we're driving back to school.

56:13 And I'm if I'm in the front of the line at the intersection, I hate when people aren't

56:17 paying attention at the front of the line because it jacks the rest of the line up.

56:19 So I'm always super dutiful for whatever reason.

56:21 I wasn't dutifully paying attention to the light.

56:24 Light turns green.

56:25 The light's green for probably two or three seconds before I even realize it.

56:28 And then a truck comes careening through the intersection.

56:31 Had I been paying attention, it would have hit me right on my driver's side door.

56:35 Who the heck knows what life looks like from there?

56:38 Like we can't really know that.

56:39 So I want to be in that grand, you know, globe, whatever that that thing is, the Las Vegas,

56:45 that big theater thing, the sphere or whatever.

56:48 Like I want to watch the just the movie of my life because I guess we're not going to

56:51 be sleeping or resting in heaven.

56:52 I don't really know.

56:53 But like where it's like, Hey, look, you little idiot.

56:55 This is all the things I did for you this entire time.

56:57 That's how God talks to me.

56:58 I know I see you guys with a look a little more on like you were mad and I was helping

57:01 you out.

57:02 Like here you go.

57:03 So I think that'd be awesome.

57:04 Thank you, Father.

57:05 That's how I accept love.

57:08 I accept love by completely tearing myself down.

57:11 You know this.

57:12 You know about my internal dialogue.

57:13 You've seen a little bit of it.

57:15 I have.

57:16 It's ratchet.

57:17 Go ahead.

57:18 But dominion, the one thing that I looked at on dominion and this whole thing is like

57:21 that's what separates the man from the beasts.

57:23 You know, we're made in God's image.

57:24 So what that does is we now we have a conscious spirit.

57:28 And so that's the image that we're created like God is a spirit.

57:31 He's not.

57:32 He doesn't have arms legs.

57:33 He's a conscious spirit.

57:34 And so we are given a conscious spirit because we're made in his image.

57:37 That's why, you know, we need Christ in that in the end, you know, we have a spiritual death

57:42 because of Adam's, Adam's fall.

57:44 But then we have to look at and Kyle, you're not going to like this, but all beasts don't

57:47 have conscious spirits.

57:49 So why would I not like that?

57:50 I agree with that 100% because that comes back to your buddy not being in heaven with

57:56 you.

57:57 Oh, you can eat.

57:58 You can eat crap.

57:59 Ryan.

58:00 My golden retriever is going to be with me in heaven.

58:01 Come on.

58:02 He's going to be in heaven.

58:03 He's going to be in heaven.

58:04 Will there be a giant Schnauzer in heaven?

58:07 Absolutely.

58:08 Yeah.

58:09 You know why?

58:10 Because he's on my leg.

58:11 Ryan, look at that.

58:12 We just got Kyle to pull down his pants.

58:14 I knew I could do it.

58:16 You owe me $5 Jake.

58:18 You're welcome YouTube.

58:19 He will be in heaven screw you guys if you don't believe it, but no, but but the thing

58:23 is that's what separates us.

58:24 That's why you have dominion over.

58:25 You had dominion over over Roman the giant.

58:28 That's why he loved you and you were his right hand or left hand guy, you know, but like

58:35 the thing is like we have conscious spirits.

58:37 That's what separates us from the beast.

58:39 That's why we have dominion over them is because they do not have conscious spirits.

58:42 Well, that's why our suffering is wholly different.

58:44 I've heard I wish I could remember who said this because it's like completely shifted

58:48 my brain about like because I love nature is metal on Instagram.

58:51 It's just literally just animals eating other animals.

58:54 But like you hear these animals and they're going crazy as they're being eaten alive.

58:57 Like someone was like, look, since angels are not sentient conscious beings, they don't

59:02 know that they are being eaten alive because they have no concept of themselves.

59:08 There is no they.

59:09 They're not like, Oh my gosh, this is terrible.

59:11 What am I going to do?

59:12 Who's going to take care of my kids like they're just being eaten.

59:15 They're literally dancing to their DNA and like that's where you hear other people talk

59:19 about all like you never see animals just looking up at the heavens like wondering about

59:24 their place in the world.

59:26 If they're looking up at the heavens, it's because they're looking for predators or they're

59:28 looking for prey.

59:30 Like that's literally it.

59:31 But we understand suffering and we understand the suffering of others, which means when

59:35 we cause others to suffer, it's a special level of cruelty because it's not cruel for

59:40 a lion tea to baby zebra, a lion just doing lion stuff.

59:43 But that's the thing.

59:44 That's what it comes back to what you guys are talking about is that we have dominion

59:47 over these things and we have stewardship and how we stewardship not only our animals

59:54 and the way we do our life, but also how we treat other people, you know, other people

59:58 in the Amago day.

59:59 And so I just thought it was pretty interesting when I looked at dominion.

1:00:03 I was like, man, we have dominion over this earth.

1:00:05 But the reason we have dominion is because we are made in his image and we have conscious

1:00:08 spirits that they do not have.

1:00:10 Hey, remember that one time on the forging table when you forced me to pull my pants

1:00:12 down to show everyone in my Roman tattoo on my white thigh.

1:00:15 Do you remember that?

1:00:16 I was like, I was like, I wonder if there's a way I get them to pull them.

1:00:19 I really, I really wish I had like an underwear sponsor because I was in a perfect time with

1:00:22 like double duty.

1:00:24 Hey, yeah, sex guys, I mean, hey, if you're listening to this right now, like I only wear

1:00:28 your stuff.

1:00:29 So it's awesome.

1:00:30 But guys, as we wrap up our discussion, just this one, and there's so much that we left

1:00:33 left out because it's just a matter of doing this, but we're going to be covering this

1:00:37 entire first section.

1:00:39 At the very end, there's something interesting about the very last verse and God saw everything

1:00:43 that he had made, which included the cosmos, right, and behold, it was very good and there

1:00:49 was evening and there was morning on the sixth day.

1:00:52 He created us.

1:00:53 He created humanity on the sixth day.

1:00:56 And this dude created the cosmos.

1:00:58 He created the constellations.

1:01:00 He created all the animals.

1:01:01 He created all these things that we look at and wonder and we're in awe of, but the only

1:01:07 thing described is very good in Genesis one in the creation story is us.

1:01:11 That's the only thing described is very good.

1:01:13 So parting thoughts on Genesis one, well, just interesting on that.

1:01:18 Last verse in the new creation in Revelation, it doesn't seem like there's going to be night

1:01:23 and day.

1:01:24 So when he created all of this, there seems like there's night and day there.

1:01:29 I don't know.

1:01:30 Just never dawned on me that apparently someday there won't be night and day, but in the beginning

1:01:35 when it was perfect, there was night and day.

1:01:38 Yeah.

1:01:39 Good little night.

1:01:40 I would say that earlier we kind of said this isn't a scientific text and it's not,

1:01:45 but science is in here.

1:01:47 If you're looking for it, Genesis expresses the universe in five different terms, time,

1:01:56 space, matter, power and motion and in Genesis one and two, you literally have all of those

1:02:02 things.

1:02:03 You have in the beginning, which is time.

1:02:04 You have God created, which is power.

1:02:06 You have the heaven space.

1:02:07 You have and the earth matter and the spirit of God hovered over to the waters.

1:02:12 That is motion.

1:02:13 So it's there, there was actually something else which I just found fascinating, but there's

1:02:19 science all over the Bible.

1:02:20 One of the things that was so interesting was Leviticus in 12, three, the circumcision

1:02:26 of infants is supposed to take place on the eighth day, which just so happens that a baby's

1:02:32 peak of blood clotting is on the eighth day and then it falls after that.

1:02:38 So there's so many things that God kind of laid out there for us that we have not, we

1:02:42 had not discovered, but in time, we actually came to a discovery.

1:02:46 I've got like eight other examples in here, but I, well, as you're saying that I discovered

1:02:49 that you were the largest man using the smallest tablet I think I've ever seen.

1:02:53 This is like, it just occurred to me that that is, that is super funny as you're using

1:02:57 your giant fat finger to just like, and it's a little bitty thing.

1:03:02 Don't be mean to the same.

1:03:03 Take it easy.

1:03:04 That's actually my cell phone.

1:03:05 Okay.

1:03:06 So to go to go off what Jake said about science and everything, I think sometimes when I read

1:03:10 this is that we have a deep view of ourselves and that we know what's right and we know

1:03:15 what's correct and that we have, you know, science and everything and I feel like science

1:03:20 is, some scientists, not all scientists are trying to disprove Genesis and I think we

1:03:26 have to remember that, you know, some of those people have a deep view of themselves and we

1:03:29 have a shallow view of God.

1:03:31 And so I think that we need to hold on to a deeper view of God and a shallow view of

1:03:34 ourselves when we read Genesis and know that he's the creator and he created us and there's

1:03:39 things that we're not going to understand, but his words here and what he wants us to

1:03:43 get out of his word is a relationship with him and who he is and why he sent his son

1:03:49 and why he created us rather than trying to figure out how old the earth is.

1:03:53 Well, guys, we somehow did it.

1:03:55 That's Genesis one, but we're going to have to leave it there for next week, guys.

1:03:59 Make sure you are read through the end of Genesis two because we're covering Genesis

1:04:03 two next week, but before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost out

1:04:06 undaunted life for mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges,

1:04:09 spiritual, mental and physical resilience.

1:04:11 So we get asked about the log us Bible software.

1:04:13 It is where Ryan in the show notes, but you know, it's also in the show notes breaking

1:04:17 news.

1:04:18 We have a forging table starter set through cross crossway.

1:04:21 There are five books there, the number of emails and DMS I get about, I can't find.

1:04:27 I went to the crossway website.

1:04:28 I can't find the forge table start, blah, blah, blah.

1:04:31 Every time I've talked about the forging table starter set, I've said it's where Ryan in

1:04:35 the show notes.

1:04:36 So guys, if you want to get this five book set that has an amazing Bible, it's got a

1:04:41 commentary in there.

1:04:42 It's got a study journal.

1:04:43 It's got some devotionals.

1:04:45 It's got some great stuff in there.

1:04:46 If you go to the show notes and if you go in there, you can see all those books and then

1:04:51 you can put them together in a cart in a package and guess what?

1:04:54 You can get them for 50% off because we love you guys, but we're going to stop loving you

1:04:58 if you keep asking me where to get it because where you get it is.

1:05:00 The show notes, guys.

1:05:01 And that's where we're going to go from now on.

1:05:02 And guys, I also want to remind you that we are a donation based ministry.

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1:05:21 Please subscribe, rate and leave us a positive five star review.

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1:05:27 to info@undonton.life.

1:05:29 That's I N F O at undonton.life.

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1:05:40 And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for

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1:05:51 I'm your host, Kyle Thompson.

1:05:53 Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental and physical resilience.

1:06:00 You're seeking the lion of Judah.

1:06:30 [BLANK_AUDIO]