0:00
Flowing ad bunted on metrics that look great till the CFO sees them, that's bullspend.
0:05
And marketers are calling it out in dashboard confessions.
0:09
I remember telling my boss, it'll be good for the brand when leads were slow.
0:15
Yeah, it wasn't.
0:17
Cut the bullspend.
0:18
LinkedIn lets you target by company, job title, and more.
0:21
Advertise on LinkedIn.
0:23
Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a $250 credit go to linkedin.com/campaign
0:27
terms and conditions apply.
0:49
This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast.
0:51
I'm your host Kyle Thompson.
0:53
Let's get into it.
0:54
All right, guys, welcome back to the forging table, the mission of Undaunted Life is equipping
0:57
men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience.
1:02
At the forging table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience
1:05
by digging into God's word and we're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with
1:09
us.
1:10
That's Eric.
1:11
That's Ryan.
1:12
That's Matt.
1:13
Guys, we have dug into Galatians one and Galatians two and I'm getting the sense as we get into
1:16
Galatians three that there might be some disagreements here.
1:18
I see Matt's like rolling up his sleeves here.
1:21
Ryan's already had his sleeves rolled up like Browning, I guess we're just going to sit
1:24
here and watch these two duke it out, but guys, I mean, I guess Galatians three is pretty
1:28
straightforward.
1:29
Everyone kind of agrees on everything inside of Galatians three.
1:31
There's not a whole lot of debate on Galatians three, is there?
1:34
No, I don't think that I actually have a disagreement with Ryan.
1:38
That's not going to lead to good content.
1:40
We need some arguments here.
1:41
I think I have a disagreement with the way the wider church interprets some of Galatians
1:46
three.
1:47
I think Ryan probably falls in the same camp as I do.
1:49
It's like, man, this seems to be a book of the Bible that people like really like to hang
1:55
their hats on and for like sometimes I just like, one verse saying their hand.
2:00
Yeah, true, true, but do we need to just go right into the one verse?
2:03
I mean, we could go to the right verse into that verse and talk about complimentarianism
2:07
and egalitarianism if you guys want to.
2:10
I mean, mine as well.
2:11
I mean, we've got, you know, roughly an hour to dig into everything that's here.
2:15
We might as well get into the stuff.
2:16
I want to look at seven through 14 because that's a, you know, substitutionary atonement,
2:20
which some of our critics will call cosmic child abuse.
2:24
So if you listen to empty wrong, I think is what, uh, that was John McCarthur.
2:29
Yeah.
2:30
John McCarthur.
2:31
Our buddy called him empty wrong.
2:32
I'm starting to think John MacArthur doesn't like anybody because it, because obviously,
2:36
you know, Matt hates Tim Tebow.
2:37
Apparently I hate John MacArthur, even though I'm sitting here reading his commentary.
2:41
You can throw in the empty wrong and Brian's answer.
2:44
I say, let's start from the.
2:45
I think we'll get there.
2:46
Let's start.
2:47
Let's start from the beginning.
2:48
Cause I think, uh, I think that's probably the best thing to do.
2:51
That's my opinion.
2:52
Lead us off.
2:53
Go ahead, man.
2:54
My faith or by works of the law, I think just, Paul goes, he got to just continues with what
3:00
he's talking about, you know, having like, we are not justified by our works.
3:04
And then he, now he's going back to admonish the, the Galatians again, like you like calling
3:10
them foolish.
3:11
Like he straight, straight away.
3:13
Why didn't opening a three, he's, he's going right back to you guys are, are foolish.
3:17
Who bewitched you?
3:18
Well, and yeah, the interesting word choice here in the ESV, I don't know what it is.
3:21
Uh, what, what is everybody reading?
3:23
So I have ESV.
3:24
I'm ESV.
3:25
ESV.
3:26
ESV.
3:27
I bring my IV and IV.
3:28
Okay.
3:29
So he's the word bewitched in an IV.
3:31
So in verse one, three one, yes, okay.
3:34
So what an interesting word, cause he hasn't used that word yet in this letter, but it's
3:38
just like, you know, he's, it's taking him almost like a couple of, of chapters again.
3:43
He didn't write these in chapters.
3:45
You know, we broke them up later, but calling them foolish, like it's, he's not basically
3:48
saying, yeah, you know, you guys are confused or you, you were kind of like caught off guard.
3:53
And you know, it's okay.
3:54
Like, you are fools.
3:55
And it's like, who bewitched you?
3:57
Like who, who convinced you that you should act in this way.
4:00
So like, dude, that, that horse is dead and he's still beating this thing.
4:03
I'm here for it.
4:04
Like it kind of goes back to his, his, uh, rebuking of Peter, like these, these people
4:09
have, have obviously heard the gospel.
4:12
He's, he's spoken into them.
4:13
He's told them, you know, about Christ and Christ crucified and, and it's, it's almost
4:18
like I, you can hear him shaking his head.
4:22
Like I cannot believe that you guys have fallen for this false teaching.
4:29
And I like in, in verse three.
4:31
So again, he's kind of keeping this whole, you know, are you so foolish?
4:34
But then he goes having begun by the spirit.
4:36
Are you now being perfected by the flesh?
4:39
And so this again kind of goes back to everything from Galatians one and Galatians two to where
4:43
it's like, okay, like this was a spiritual transformation.
4:46
Now you're trying to add a bunch of physical stuff.
4:48
You're trying to add a bunch of stuff that, that we didn't talk about.
4:50
And it's like, again, we have to kind of remember like who's in charge of this.
4:54
This is Peter.
4:55
He walked around with Jesus.
4:56
Like, you know, Paul never, he wasn't ever of an apostle of Jesus.
5:00
Like, you know, he met him on the road to Damascus, you know, more of an, you know, kind of a
5:04
spiritual way.
5:05
And so that's the interesting thing.
5:06
Like, I guess it makes me feel better when I mess up, like whenever I read the Bible and
5:11
like apply it wrongly, it's like, dude, Peter was walking around with the word of God and
5:15
like still mess this up.
5:16
Like he still didn't get the point.
5:18
Do we know how long, how long after the, uh, I guess this was supposed to be written in
5:23
49 A.D. and we're assuming Jesus died in 33 A.D.
5:27
So it had been a while, so I guess, you know, 16 ish years, but still, I mean, you would
5:32
think that that would have been sticky enough for Peter and the Judaizers not to add a bunch
5:36
of stuff, you know, but I mean, again, the whole Bible is chock full of stories where
5:40
like Moses literally leads the Israelites out of Egypt and then they're like, can we
5:44
go back?
5:45
We were slaves, but like at least we were eating good food and it's like it wasn't even that
5:48
long.
5:49
So like there, like we as a people are just, we always want to turn, we always want to turn
5:54
back or turn a different way.
5:55
And it's like, I think that's just, it doesn't matter.
5:58
It could be five seconds.
5:59
We want it.
6:00
And like, I feel like sometimes this, this is written to me, like the first, first three,
6:04
like are you so foolish?
6:05
I've been gunned by the spirit, like I'm, I'm, I have faith and I have the spirit of Christ,
6:10
but then I want to go do works and I want to be good.
6:16
And it's like even, I think this letter could be written to us in modern times.
6:21
Yeah, I mean, I think it is, but like it's so interesting how I think a lot of times we
6:28
want to go, man, those people, those Galatians, those are, they were so stupid.
6:31
But then we don't look in the mirror and go, Oh, man, I do that.
6:34
Yeah.
6:35
What a testimony to of just the validity of the Bible that again, you, you look at it
6:40
and go, man, the Bible is really embarrassing for the human race.
6:44
You know, why would this be made up, you know, and, you know, because it's, and you look at
6:50
these people just falling left and right, left and right, of course, all need the grace
6:53
of God.
6:54
Yeah.
6:55
And that speaks to the truth, I think, but like God using broken people and it's not
6:59
just this guy who does everything right.
7:01
He's on a shiny horse and he's, you know, never, never puts a foot wrong.
7:06
It's, you know, David, yeah, a really terrible person working for the glory of God.
7:11
So so I need to point this out.
7:13
Well, I was about to point this out.
7:14
It had been about four minutes since you last said something, Ryan.
7:17
So it's like, I don't know if this was like you were building up, like, were you charging
7:21
up?
7:22
Because it seemed like you were kind of letting us talk and let us kind of figure some things
7:24
out.
7:25
I mean, if you want to, I've been turned down, you know, but I want to, I just sometimes
7:29
like to sit back and listen, forget easing in.
7:32
We don't ease in here.
7:33
Like, let's just, let's go for it.
7:34
I was actually thinking about our last conversation.
7:36
Yeah.
7:37
In chapter two, where you asked about, you know, the guy who did good things and by conscience,
7:42
you know what I'm saying?
7:43
Like, look at this verse here in verse two of chapter three.
7:49
Did you receive the spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith, with faith,
7:54
you know?
7:55
So I've done all these good things, supposedly.
7:59
Have I received the spirit?
8:00
Has that guy received the spirit that you talk about?
8:03
No, he hasn't.
8:04
Why?
8:05
Because he hasn't believed my faith.
8:06
And so I think that's one thing that we've got to look at is how do we get to that faith,
8:11
you know, how do we, how do we come to that, you know, come to that faith and then what
8:14
happened with that faith, we were, we received the spirit and that spirit is not the cultural
8:20
conscience of what I was before.
8:22
Now I've turned myself around.
8:25
And now I believe in the spirit of God who's, which is in his word, that brings me to the
8:30
faith that I believe.
8:33
So people were bewitched, they were bewitched by good deeds, they were doing themselves
8:40
swindled by, you know, tellings, self pride, I mean, that's what legal is just self pride.
8:46
It's like, look at me, I'm a better Christian than you are, you know, this might be a little
8:51
bit too philosophical.
8:52
And if it is, I mean, because there's a lot here in Glacier, so I don't want to get too
8:55
too far off on any tangents.
8:57
But why, like, why do we get bewitched?
9:02
Because if we believe in the truth of the gospel, if we believe in there's no more important
9:06
truth in the history of humanity than the truth of the resurrection of Jesus Christ and how
9:11
that was a propitiation for our sin debt, like, how could I guess I just don't understand
9:17
how we could like allow that to be defiled.
9:21
And I guess that gets into the nature of man and the nature of the individual.
9:25
But as you sit there and think about it, I'm not so naive as to think that if I were back
9:29
there in those times that I wouldn't have been hanging out with the Judaizers as well.
9:33
Like I'm not so naive because you hear these people all the time, like they'll be like,
9:35
oh, yeah, if I were in, you know, Germany in the 1930s and 40s, like I never would have
9:40
supported Hitler.
9:41
I never would have been a brown shirt.
9:42
I never would have, you know, supported anyone wearing jack boots.
9:45
It's like, bro, no, like read the book Ordinary Men about these guys that were just literally
9:49
ordinary dudes.
9:50
And then they ended up being people, I think they were, they were Polish dudes that ended
9:54
up like systematically helping murder millions of Jews, right?
9:57
Not these individual guys, but they were part of that entire machine.
10:00
It's like we have this, I guess, CS Lewis would call it, you know, chronological snobbery
10:04
where we just look back on these old timey people and like, I would just kind of dismiss
10:07
them.
10:08
And it's like, no, if you were back in that day, somehow, some way it would make sense
10:11
in your brain.
10:12
Yeah, yeah, yeah, blood of Christ.
10:13
Yeah, that's all good, but also circumcision, but also these dietary restrictions and things
10:18
like that.
10:19
I just, how the heck do we get there?
10:20
Like, how does it happen?
10:21
I think.
10:22
Yeah, it's just because the sole purpose of the ruler of this world is to kill still
10:26
and destroy.
10:27
It has no other purpose other than to do that.
10:29
And so he's he's going around trying to do that very thing and using confusion and
10:34
all, all the time.
10:36
Does he ever take a day off?
10:38
No.
10:39
No.
10:40
And that means you can't take a day off.
10:41
I think about like my input of God's word and my, my just thoughts in general, like, where
10:48
my thoughts go whenever I have nothing to think about, they should go to God.
10:52
But but in general, like what I see in our culture is all the cultural cues and the,
10:58
the trickery and all that is like a massive waterfall.
11:02
It's all the time.
11:03
It's everywhere.
11:04
It's on billboards.
11:05
It's on your phone.
11:06
It's on the TV.
11:07
It's in the things you read.
11:09
It is coming at you all the time.
11:11
And I think it's the same thing if I told you that two plus two is five for the next
11:15
10 years.
11:16
Maybe I could start to convince you if it was really persuasive about that, you know?
11:21
So I think probably what, what needs it practically in our lives, we don't want to have a trickle
11:28
on the other side of this where I read my Bible like once a month, you know, whatever.
11:33
Otherwise, you are just setting yourself up to be lied to and then start to believe those
11:37
lives.
11:38
What did the devil do in the garden?
11:40
He twisted the truth.
11:42
Twist of the truth.
11:43
What did he, how did he do it?
11:44
Did God really say?
11:45
Right.
11:46
God really say this.
11:47
Yeah.
11:48
You know, you could be like God.
11:49
Yeah.
11:50
You know, like that's, that's what gets us.
11:51
I think we forget that.
11:53
Well, we forget that God is more powerful than we are, you know, and it goes back to
11:58
the Calvinist message.
11:59
You know what I'm saying?
12:00
Because like God's sovereignty, we have this ability in our bodies that just wants us to
12:06
do it on our own, you know, to be on our own.
12:09
It's just, it's just the human nature of us is like, I can do this on my own.
12:14
I can do this, but giving something up and allowing somebody to take something else from
12:19
you, it's hard to do, you know, like we're so bent in one way, it's like, Hey, let me
12:23
help you change the baby's diaper.
12:24
And I'm like, no, no, no.
12:25
I got this.
12:26
I got this.
12:27
But it's on your face, but like, is that more of a question of the expectation that we can
12:33
do it all versus we can do some?
12:35
Because I think that comes back to the problem that people have with some of the strict Calvinist
12:39
theology, which is like, no, no, no, we get that Christ did like he died for our sins.
12:46
Like, you know, that that's, that is the message of the gospel.
12:49
But we don't do nothing like we have to do something in order to receive it.
12:54
Like we have to believe that like believing is an action thing and that kind of gets later
12:57
on in verse three or after three.
12:59
I think what it comes down to us is, is it believing because like we have to believe
13:04
first before we repent.
13:06
I think the next thing is sentence.
13:08
That's what you do.
13:09
You repent from the life that you once lived and you're going, I'm going to change my
13:13
mind.
13:14
Benatonia, I think is the Greek word for it.
13:16
Change of mind.
13:17
I'm going to change my mind.
13:18
And I'm not going to live that way.
13:19
I'm going to do a complete 180.
13:21
I'm going to live.
13:22
Live as Christ.
13:23
So Christ.
13:24
Christ died.
13:25
You know, or I died to Christ.
13:26
I died to self.
13:27
You know, and so I think the thing that we do is repentance.
13:30
I think God opens our eyes to the gospel and we see the true beauty of it.
13:35
And then from seeing that beauty, our action is repentance.
13:38
Well, a slide aside before you guys hop in here, that was the first time a Greek word
13:41
was used on the forging table.
13:43
So all of those ticks that we have for all the things that you've done wrong so far, those
13:46
have been absolved, predestinedly absolved in that way because you were the first person
13:52
used Greek, but go ahead, I'm sorry, sorry, I messed it up.
14:00
But I guess what it comes to, and we're going to probably unpack this a whole lot more, but
14:04
when you get into verse 22 of Galatians three, verse 22 is, but the scripture and prison
14:08
to everything under sin so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to
14:13
those who believe that last word there believe it's like, okay, where you really start having
14:18
theological arguments is what do you mean by belief?
14:21
Because some people see you believe as an action verb, like, oh, I believe that, right?
14:25
Based on what?
14:26
Oh, and then you can kind of explain why you believe those things.
14:28
And other people would say, it's like, no, no, belief was given to you, like you don't
14:31
believe anything.
14:32
Belief was given to you, which again, kind of goes back, I think I already mentioned
14:35
CS Lewis, but when CS Lewis talked about mere Christianity, creating a world full of automatons
14:40
is not a world worth creating.
14:42
And that was basically going back to the idea that creating a world without sin also creates
14:48
a world without the potential for love because you can't be forced to love.
14:52
And so I think that's where people get into the belief side.
14:54
It's like, if you were given that belief, then it seems like why would that gift only
14:59
be given to certain people?
15:00
But I think when it comes to CS Lewis and what he's trying to bring about is free will.
15:04
And we still do have free will, I have free will to listen to the Holy Spirit.
15:08
You know, like you have free will to listen to the Holy Spirit.
15:11
Like I could come.
15:12
All right.
15:13
My child just made me angry.
15:14
And lose my temper, cuss, and do whatever I want to do to make my fleshly desire feel
15:20
better about my anger right now, or I can listen to the Holy Spirit handle it in the
15:24
right way.
15:25
That's my free will.
15:26
I now have I've had free will, whether to sin to murder somebody or not to murder something.
15:31
I think that's what he talks about with automatons, not me, not basically on salvation because
15:37
our job is to get the message out there.
15:39
We're not changing anybody's hearts.
15:41
We're the we're the garden that you were the seed planners, you know, we're not we're
15:46
not the water.
15:47
We're not the growth.
15:48
That's that's God.
15:49
That's the messages out there that let God work on them.
15:52
So Ryan, when do you think that someone receives the Holy Spirit?
15:56
Is it prior to their conversion or is it afterwards or at the time of?
16:02
I think at the time of I would say after repentance.
16:05
So there's belief and there's repentance and then I think repentance comes because you
16:10
receive the Holy Spirit because now you're seeing life in a different light and you're
16:14
seeing like, all right, these are the ways of Christ and I need to follow them compared
16:20
to how.
16:21
So I think the Holy Spirit comes out, so yeah, so honestly, like you've given me a really
16:27
good thing to think about because it's like maybe maybe before that belief, maybe you
16:31
are being hit with the Holy Spirit, like God is putting the Holy Spirit in you.
16:34
And now you're seeing the gospel for what it really is.
16:36
Yeah, your eyes are opened and then you.
16:40
So I mean, that's I would love to go a little bit deeper on that one.
16:45
Yeah.
16:46
Yeah, it sounds like a podcast episode.
16:49
I think I think now is a good time.
16:50
This is what I was going to say earlier.
16:52
I'll change a little bit to fit it in here.
16:54
But like, I think it's the daily, the daily repentance, the daily dying to oneself.
17:00
And I say that knowing that I don't even, I don't do that every day.
17:04
But like, and I think Paul gets so frustrated here in chapter three, because clearly they're
17:11
not daily repenting, they are, they are, and again, the Bible is chock full of stories
17:17
where, you know, one day we're like, God is the best, I will never, I will never worship
17:22
any other God.
17:23
And then hey, let's, let's make a golden cow statue.
17:27
And it's like, you have to, you have to have that daily death, that daily repentance.
17:34
And I think that's why getting into the word is so important because we are in constant
17:39
need of a reminder that we are depraved sinners.
17:46
Yeah.
17:47
And don't you think most of us are many believers are waking up in the morning and not putting
17:52
on the armor of God?
17:53
Oh, for sure.
17:54
I think, I think for a lot of people, this whole thing about, oh, yeah, yeah, I believe,
18:00
yeah.
18:01
And that's it.
18:02
That's all they need.
18:03
It's the call, the altar call is, is the moment, like that's it.
18:08
And once the altar call is over, I'm good.
18:11
It's, and I don't think anybody would call it a get out of jail free card.
18:15
I think that's how a lot of people act.
18:16
I feel like a lot of people treat.
18:17
Yeah.
18:18
A lot of people, if you come from that background, a lot of people treat it that way for sure.
18:21
Well, so it begs the question is, so is it, is it free will?
18:26
Do we have free will with everything except for salvation?
18:28
So keep that in mind.
18:29
Cause I'm going to read the actual thing from your Christianity that I was referring to
18:32
with CS Lewis.
18:33
So I found it here.
18:34
God created things which had free will.
18:36
That means creatures which can go either wrong or right.
18:38
Some people think that they can imagine a creature which was free, but had no possibility of
18:43
going wrong.
18:44
I cannot.
18:45
If a thing is free to be good, it is also free to be bad.
18:48
Free will is what has made evil possible.
18:51
Why then did God give them free will?
18:54
Because free will, though it makes evil possible is also the only thing that makes possible
18:58
any love or goodness or joy worth having a world of automata or automatons of creatures
19:04
that worked like machines would hardly be a world worth creating.
19:08
The happiness which God designs for his higher creatures is the happiness of being freely
19:13
voluntarily united to him and to each other in an ecstasy of love and delight compared
19:18
with which the most rapturous love between a man and a woman on this earth is mere milk
19:22
and water.
19:23
And for that, they must be free.
19:25
And so that's where I think people are kind of going to where it's like, okay, do we have
19:28
free will in the morning to put on the armor of God or not?
19:31
Do we have free will or not to pray for our neighbors?
19:34
Is it that we have free will and everything?
19:35
This isn't necessarily challenges just kind of thrown it out to everybody.
19:38
Do we have free will and everything except for our salvation?
19:41
Because again, I go back to whenever John MacArthur wrote that open letter to Governor
19:46
Gavin Newsom in the final paragraph.
19:48
He was admonishing and basically begging Governor Gavin Newsom to accept Christ.
19:52
But everything in that final paragraph were like action verbs like he needed to do something.
19:57
It wasn't like, I hope this is revealed to you.
19:59
I hope you're part of the elect.
20:00
I hope you're chosen.
20:01
And that's where I feel like people, you know, if you read Galatians three through that lens,
20:06
you're only going to hear the things that sound electy or non free wheelie or something
20:10
like that.
20:11
Does that make sense?
20:12
I hear what you're saying.
20:13
But if you think about it this way, you've got to think about we are depraved like we
20:17
are so depraved.
20:18
What makes you think that we could see God and know his goodness if we're so depraved?
20:23
You know, like that's how far does our free will go?
20:26
You know what I'm saying?
20:27
Like I've had free will, but sometimes I do the wrong thing.
20:31
You know what I'm saying?
20:32
So like how far does our free will go?
20:34
You know, and when it comes to salvation, like I think it's something we can discuss over
20:37
cigars and whiskey, and we do that many times and I get admonished a lot.
20:44
But you know, but my thing is, is like, we go back to your analogy, was it was it the
20:50
first episode where you talked about the man in the water who's drowning and then we had
20:54
the watchman name or the man in the water is drowning?
20:57
You know, like that hand could come out, but I don't know what that hand is.
21:00
What if I don't know what a hand?
21:01
You know what I'm saying?
21:02
I don't know that that's going to save me.
21:04
What if that hand that's coming out just keeps pushing me down?
21:07
I want a God that's going to come after me, you know, if, you know, we can get into election
21:12
and I know that's a sore subject for a lot of people, but you see a lot of election through
21:17
the Bible.
21:18
I mean, look at the Jews.
21:19
The Jews were an elected people, you know, the Jews and the mobites weren't elected.
21:24
The Philistines weren't elected.
21:26
You know what I'm saying?
21:27
And the Jews weren't picked because they were awesome.
21:29
Yeah, you know, they were picked because of faith, you know?
21:33
And so, you know, this is something that we can talk about and discuss, but I just, when
21:41
it comes down to salvation and it comes down to the goodness of God, I think that your
21:46
eyes, you know, that beauty needs to be open to you.
21:50
You know what I'm saying?
21:51
Like, I don't think I'm through my depravity, I can actually see that beauty of what Christ
21:55
did on the cross for me.
21:56
I mean, I didn't.
21:57
I was a cultural Christian in name only.
21:59
Why did Jesus die on a cross?
22:01
He died on a cross to save me from my sins.
22:03
Well, what happened to you when you died on a, and we can get in that with that through
22:06
verse seven through 14, you know, what did he die?
22:10
Why did he die on the cross?
22:11
He died on the cross to take on the wrath of God because what is, what does God hate
22:16
the most of sin?
22:18
What was brought into this world sin?
22:20
Why did they sacrifice innocent animals with no blemishes?
22:24
Why?
22:25
Because they were a sacrifice to God and Christ was at ultimate sacrifice, the beauty in that
22:29
he walked this earth and fulfilled the law that we can't fulfill.
22:35
Nobody will ever be that perfect.
22:38
And he drank from the cup of God's wrath, drank the full cup and died on the cross for
22:44
our sins.
22:45
Like, that's a beautiful thing.
22:48
And even as a person who's probably gone up to that altar call three or four times, it
22:51
wasn't until I was 24 years old that I figured that out, you know?
22:56
And so that's where I'm thinking, like, your eyes need to be open.
23:00
I think it's definitely a subject that is worth, you know, a long time to discuss or
23:05
could be given a long time to discuss.
23:07
There are verses in there in the Bible that talk about, I mean, revelations talks about
23:13
name being written in the book before the beginning of time.
23:19
It's not, that's not a quotation, obviously, but that's basically a paraphrase.
23:22
Like your, the elect's name is written in the book of life before the beginning of time.
23:29
God foreknew all who would be chosen.
23:32
And those are some really, some really, some really hard things to, to navigate through
23:37
your stuff.
23:38
Yeah.
23:39
I'm just thinking like, I'm just trying to think, and now, analogously, like I'm running
23:44
away.
23:45
And then I hear a voice and I stop and turn around and realize there's something amazing
23:51
behind me.
23:53
At that moment, I think that's where it's like, to me, it's like, oh, do I have the choice
23:57
to just turn back around and just keep going away?
24:00
Or I have the choice of turning around and walking towards that thing.
24:04
But then what goes into your mind to make you want to turn?
24:08
So it's really interesting, like, I think of Jesus calling Lazarus out of the tomb.
24:13
Like he didn't really have a, like he said that so forcefully, Jesus did, like Lazarus
24:17
didn't even, he didn't really have a choice, but to just come back out.
24:22
That's kind of how I...
24:23
But in that moment, Lazarus, he's dead.
24:25
He was non-sentient.
24:26
So he couldn't, he didn't feel the surroundings, do anything.
24:28
He had to obey because he had no, he literally had no other choice.
24:32
So that's, I guess, the thing with, with your analogy is like, okay, if someone's running
24:34
after you, like, are you being turned around or are you turning around?
24:38
Because one is something else is compelling you to do that, but, and so, but back to your
24:42
thing, Ryan, it's like, I guess the question is like, what would make you want to turn
24:45
around?
24:46
There's more of an ethereal question, whereas most people are asking, like, who is doing
24:49
the turning?
24:50
Is it me choosing to turn around?
24:53
Because dude, that gets so much farther into like a Sam Harris type guy to where it's like,
24:57
or, you know, you know, Dawkins, like, hey, we're just dancing to our DNA.
25:00
Like, this was, this was, it can be foreknown, but it could still be a choice because in every
25:06
other area of life, we can choose, but in this one very specific area, we had no choice
25:11
in the matter.
25:12
That, that's where I think really people run aground on it.
25:13
But think about that story.
25:14
That's, that's a really good, we're all dead.
25:17
Yeah.
25:18
We're all dead.
25:19
Lazarus is dead, but we're all dead.
25:20
But he's like really dead though.
25:21
No, I know.
25:22
But, but that's like, wait, like we are all really dead spiritually dead.
25:26
We are spiritually dead.
25:27
I'm with it.
25:28
Like, like a, like a sack of bones doesn't have any idea that there's weight on it.
25:32
Does that mean the weight isn't on it?
25:33
Like a dead person doesn't know that it's doing something wrong or that there's something
25:37
weighing it down because it's dead.
25:40
That doesn't make it any less dead.
25:42
Like we're dead to our sin in Christ, but we were, we are dead.
25:46
Okay.
25:47
It's spiritual.
25:48
Well, let me ask you to stay in that vein.
25:50
So let's talk about faith.
25:51
So, uh, trying to think of a scientific example.
25:53
So let's say you, you didn't believe in gravity for whatever reason because you didn't know
25:56
what gravity was.
25:57
Like you had no concept of gravity.
25:58
You knew that if you jumped up, you came back down.
26:00
You didn't know that was called gravity, but then someone teaches you about gravity.
26:04
Okay.
26:05
They, they tell you what it is.
26:06
They go through all the stuff.
26:07
They ride on the chalkboard.
26:08
All that.
26:09
So now you know gravity.
26:10
It's in the gravity that you know, because it's been revealed to you by a teacher of
26:14
some kind.
26:15
This is what gravity is.
26:16
Okay.
26:17
And this is why whenever you jump up, you don't keep going.
26:19
You come right back down.
26:21
And so if somebody spreads the gospel, because this goes and gets in like, why do Calvin
26:24
is even like spread the gospel?
26:26
It's either your elect or not.
26:27
Like why even tell someone about it.
26:28
But it's just like at the same time, like when you have these individuals, if someone
26:31
explains to your, your full depravity, if they give you a full-throated exposition of
26:36
the gospel and they give that to you and you go, wow.
26:39
Like not necessarily an emotional change, but maybe an intellectual change where it's
26:42
like, oh, crap.
26:43
Yeah, I'm definitely fully depraved.
26:45
I'm going to repent.
26:47
I'm going to choose to repent.
26:48
I'm not going to be just, you know, moving around a me, but like in, in turned into a
26:51
repenter.
26:52
But it's like, I'm going to choose to repent and I'm going to choose to start studying the
26:55
Bible.
26:56
I'm going to choose to start, you know, developing these fruits and things like that.
26:59
That's where I feel like, again, is somebody turning the runner around or is the runner
27:02
deciding to turn around because it's like they've learned about their faith.
27:06
Now, people start talking about the muse, so people that don't really have a Christian
27:09
worldview, they talk about the muse, right?
27:12
And so it's like, how did I know to write that next sentence or how did I know to bring
27:15
this character into my novel?
27:17
The muse told them, right?
27:18
And so it's kind of hard to define exactly what that is.
27:21
But whenever you're told something and then all of a sudden it clicks and you understand
27:24
it, like, is that you?
27:26
Is that, is that your soul?
27:28
Is that something else that's happened inside of you?
27:30
Again, this, this can get real philosophical and go completely off the rails really quick.
27:33
But go ahead.
27:34
Where Eric kind of changed my mind in regards to where salvation starts.
27:37
Okay.
27:38
I think once you hear that message.
27:39
So go ahead and repeat what you said in case any of the listeners missed it earlier.
27:42
Oh.
27:43
Yeah.
27:44
Yeah.
27:45
No, my question, what you've been talking about, my question.
27:46
Yeah.
27:47
In regards to salvation.
27:48
When do you receive the Holy Spirit before, at the time, or after?
27:50
Correct.
27:51
So I say before, I would, I would actually almost agree before because that's what's opened
27:54
your eyes.
27:55
That's what made you click.
27:57
That's what makes you want to turn around and repent.
27:59
So God has worked that Holy Spirit into you, you know, he's, he's giving you now that
28:04
gift because now you understand the gospel.
28:08
So I mean, if we look at what happened to, um, with Paul, you know, when he was out in
28:15
the desert, you know, Christ came to him, blinded, you know, and he was filled with the
28:21
Holy Spirit, you know, like he knew something he was like, now I believe, and then somebody
28:26
came along and unblinded him, you know, and then he went out in the desert.
28:29
He didn't go and talk to Peter, he didn't go and talk to James.
28:33
He went out into the desert and the Holy Spirit fed him the word, you know, through Christ
28:38
Jesus.
28:39
So I would say you get, I would say it happens before.
28:42
I mean, that would be what would you say?
28:44
Yeah, that, that's a hard call.
28:46
I mean, that I, I, I kind of land on that side too.
28:52
It's just mind blowing to think about that.
28:55
That's how that would work.
28:57
You know, it's, to me, it's like trying to understand the trilogy.
29:00
It's just, I mean, the trilogy, which was.
29:02
Yeah.
29:03
We're talking lethal weapon.
29:04
Yeah.
29:05
Definitely.
29:06
Yeah.
29:07
Yeah.
29:08
Just trying to understand the Trinity, you know, like how that, like that, that blows
29:11
my mind too.
29:12
So understanding my own salvation, it's, it's just, it's like, man, well, see, I don't
29:17
feel like the Trinity is hard to understand.
29:18
It's hard for a Muslim to understand because they're, I mean, just because of their paradigm
29:22
for how they look at things.
29:23
But like, uh, one God, like, but in three persons, like one, one entity, one being, but
29:28
in three persons.
29:29
100% though.
29:30
Yeah, like, so it's like, that's about as easy for me to understand it as it is easy
29:35
for me to see Jesus as 100% Lamb of God, 100% Lion of Judah, 100% Grace, 100% truth.
29:41
But like this seems like something entirely different.
29:43
And I guess this is the struggle that I have is, you know, why, if you are a strict Calvinist,
29:48
why would you share the gospel?
29:49
And most people would just say, Oh, it's because we're told we're supposed to.
29:52
And then it's like, but like, is that just kind of like, because God told us to do it,
29:56
we should do it because he told us to go ahead as a strict Calvinist, you know, a five point
30:00
Calvinist.
30:01
Right.
30:02
I still think you should share the gospel because how are your eyes going to be opened
30:04
if you don't hear it?
30:06
You know what I'm saying?
30:07
So like, but they were elect already there and I can already feel the emails coming way
30:12
every way.
30:13
Every time I talk about this, the long emails I get, but go ahead.
30:16
But how are they going to hear the gospel?
30:20
We're talking about the seats over here.
30:22
You know what I'm saying?
30:23
Our job is to sow the seed, you know?
30:25
So if you've been elected, like written in the lambs book of life and you've never heard
30:30
the gospel at some point, you're going to hear the gospel and you're going to believe.
30:33
But how are you going to?
30:34
How are you going to hear it?
30:35
Yeah, you're going to respond to it.
30:36
But how are you going to hear it?
30:37
So that's our job.
30:38
Our job is to go get it out there because it's like, it's like how many times have you shared
30:42
the gospel with somebody?
30:43
A lot.
30:44
A lot.
30:45
And then have you, has everybody been saved by who you talked to?
30:48
Of course not.
30:49
Of course not.
30:50
You know, because some are elected, some are not, you know what I'm saying?
30:53
And so.
30:54
So what you're saying, some of them had no shot, they had no chance whatsoever to receive it.
30:59
You know what?
31:00
Because that's the way that's really hard.
31:01
It's a really hard pill to swallow, but yes, that's what I believe.
31:05
So this is, this is a thing that's like, it's so deep.
31:10
And I think that is why the seeker church model exists because like even as someone who's
31:19
been a faithful Christian for 10 years, 20 years, like this is still a hard thing to
31:24
understand why would someone who just came to Christ be even ready or willing to think
31:33
about this, let alone try to understand it.
31:36
And so like it's, it's a really hard thing to grasp.
31:40
And I think there's a lot of churches out there that don't even want to try.
31:44
And I think we serve a God who can literally do it every once.
31:49
I mean, we, I mean, I don't think we can definitively come to the answer on that here
31:53
about what that does.
31:55
But man, it's so fun to talk about like all these things.
31:59
But what I was going to say is like that, I think that's why, or one of the reasons
32:02
why this churches that are a mile wide and an inch deep exists is because there's, there's
32:06
some things in here that are really hard to talk about.
32:11
And if you don't get into it, you'll never, you like, you can't just open up a Bible and
32:15
look at, look at, look at the back and look up Trinity, like you can't do that.
32:20
You've got to understand the word, you've got to know what that means.
32:24
You've probably got to open up some sort of theological study on that.
32:28
So that's why reading the Bible is so important.
32:31
So you can understand.
32:32
When even going back to the Trinity, there's no, that the word Trinity doesn't, the word
32:37
Trinity not like even appear in the Bible, like someone was saying it was several hundred
32:40
years later before he went ever like, you know, talked about that.
32:43
But the same thing like in Islam, the, the Tahit or the Shahada or things like that, those
32:47
things aren't explicit in, in the Quran, but the extrapolation of the truce inside or not
32:54
the truth for that.
32:55
But like the contents of the Quran would lead to those things.
32:58
Same thing like if you study the scriptures old and New Testament, you get the concept
33:02
of the Trinity.
33:03
It's, it's clearly there.
33:04
And so that's where you get into the, it would be a whole lot easier if, you know, first
33:08
Jesus one, one told you exactly, you know, this is exactly what you need to do or not
33:14
do or elect or not elect, or if it was just very, very clear, because that's the thing
33:18
that I've seen Ryan with a lot of these, these debates, whether it's a Calvinist and an
33:21
Armenianist or a Calvinist and anybody else, like they're going to have people that here
33:25
are my 10 lists of scriptures in context that say I'm right.
33:30
And then the other person also has 10 that are in context that say that they're right.
33:34
And so I don't think it's foolish for a table like this to, to be talking about because
33:39
it's important.
33:40
It gives us some important food for thought.
33:42
My concern is for the person that isn't as advanced, not to say that we're all like super
33:46
advanced, but it isn't as experienced with this content to be like, how do you, because
33:51
I've asked this of Calvinist before and they can't answer it, but I'm like, in 30 seconds
33:55
or less, how is somebody saved?
33:58
And people just launched into these big, long explanations about how they're saved and
34:02
all that.
34:03
And it's just kind of like, yeah, you, we're in an elevator.
34:05
You got to share the gospel.
34:06
We have, okay, I can see words, belief, repentance, that's how you're saying we're talking Romans
34:11
10, nine and 10.
34:12
Is that enough?
34:13
We're going to have to go back.
34:15
So, but who's repenting?
34:18
Believe in repentance.
34:19
So you hit with belief, you believe that Christ died on the cross for your sins.
34:24
And like as a robot would when you turn them on, you just start repenting.
34:28
Repentance just happens.
34:29
I think that's a really, that's a really simplistic way to look at it.
34:32
Like we serve a God who is so powerful, like mortal people can't even be in God's presence.
34:40
And so like, and I'm not, I don't know where I'm, I'm, I'm probably between the two of
34:44
you on this, where I land, but like we serve a God that is so powerful that like Moses was
34:50
not even allowed to see God.
34:54
And so like though the, the Holy Spirit is so powerful, like it's not a robot, but it's
35:01
like, what other response could you have to the creator of the universe than to turn around
35:08
and repent because you have seen that the king of the universe, the one holy God has opened
35:18
your eyes to the truth.
35:20
Like what other reaction?
35:21
Here's the thing.
35:22
What other response could somebody have?
35:23
I've asked the same question about people that saw Jesus do miracles in the name of the
35:27
father, and they didn't all become believers.
35:29
Right.
35:30
So that's the thing where I struggle is like, I'm with you because I saw that's what makes
35:33
it so hard.
35:34
I saw this, this, uh, it was some TikTok dude who just became a Christian like two years
35:38
ago.
35:39
And he's like, he's, he knows so much about theology and all these other different things
35:42
because he's like, I discovered that whenever I saw the truth of God and I, I believe God,
35:46
I was like nothing else is more important than this.
35:49
And so I'm going to give this all my time and attention, but it's kind of the same thing.
35:52
People that walked with Jesus saw Jesus saw the things that he didn't God's name and they
35:55
didn't believe they walked away as unbelievers.
35:58
So it's like, it's very easy to see how someone could see the power and grandeur of God and
36:02
not respond to it.
36:03
But it's like, why, why didn't they respond to it?
36:05
Did they choose not to or were they just not elect?
36:07
I did.
36:08
Why did Pharaoh who saw the grandeur of God, right?
36:11
Do anything.
36:12
Yeah.
36:13
What did God do?
36:14
The harden is hard.
36:15
Harden is hard.
36:16
Yeah.
36:17
So God hardens people's hearts.
36:18
You know, I mean, as bitter pill to swallow and the election is real.
36:22
Well, that's, and I think that's where that's where I think sometimes people come into this
36:26
cosmic child abuse, like theory and like this belief because you don't want to believe
36:32
in a God who would let bad things happen to good to good people.
36:35
Yeah.
36:36
And I mean, and that's, I think that's incorrect.
36:38
And I think we would all agree that like bad things don't happen to good people because
36:41
there aren't any good people.
36:42
Right.
36:43
Like that.
36:44
Like that is where people get to that belief of like, yeah, there are people that are going
36:48
to be in hell.
36:49
Yeah.
36:50
I don't mean to serve a God that that's going to do that.
36:52
There's going to be people who didn't smoke, drink or cuss, they're going to be in hell.
36:55
You know what I'm saying?
36:56
I was going to be full of good people.
36:57
I had to talk with my five or seven year old.
37:00
You know, we were going over the Reformation a while back.
37:05
And yeah.
37:06
You just basically asked, we were singing Martin Luther's him that he wrote that up.
37:14
But basically what came about was there was a part in there about about God.
37:20
I'm going to.
37:21
I'm going to.
37:22
Should have.
37:23
Well, go ahead and look it up because I've been browning your window.
37:24
I don't know this as well.
37:25
Oh, gosh.
37:26
No.
37:27
Oh, you have nothing to do with this.
37:30
I really don't want.
37:31
Yeah.
37:32
No, I'm just sitting here struggling.
37:33
I guess I was just the thought that was going through my head was, gosh, you know, what
37:38
if what if two of my three children are not elect, you know, like what?
37:42
Yeah.
37:43
Like what am I doing?
37:44
Me and Caitlin have had that conversation.
37:46
Yeah.
37:47
It's just it's so hard.
37:48
I just I just feel like there's something there's a mystery, obviously there's a mystery
37:53
to it that we're just not I don't know that we're going to really understand it.
37:57
But when you understand that God doesn't have grandchildren, like he only has children,
38:03
like we don't we don't get to like impute our faith, acute our faith and our election
38:08
on our kids.
38:09
Like that has to be that's theirs.
38:11
That's a tough one too of like man, it's a chance, both my kids to be in hell.
38:18
Like, man, that's that's a really scary thing to think about it.
38:22
The scary thing to think about that too is, you know, we disciple our children.
38:25
Our children, you know, we're called to disciple, you know, the and great commission, but at
38:32
home, we need to start out with our children.
38:34
And so the sad part is if we disciple our children and then you know what I'm saying?
38:39
Why did, you know, and then that's where election hits even harder, you know what I'm saying?
38:44
I think I think this is like some really like high level theological things, but like you
38:50
I don't think you get to really discuss this if you if you aren't grounded in what Paul's
38:56
talking about in Galatians that justification is through faith alone.
39:00
Because if you can't get there, like you can't, well, who's a like like all of that stuff,
39:05
but like goes goes in different directions that is hard that's hard to grasp if you don't
39:10
understand this fundamental truth.
39:11
Yeah, and that's the thing like I don't look at my son is saved.
39:15
Like he's he's believed and repented, you know, he's going to be baptized soon.
39:20
You know, I don't I don't go and like, oh, you know, I don't think my daughter's elected
39:24
or I don't look at that.
39:25
You know, I'm like, oh, you have salvation, you're elected.
39:27
I really just don't look at election that way.
39:29
Like it's something to argue about and talk about, but I don't look at like, all right,
39:33
that person just got saved.
39:34
So they're elected.
39:35
You know what I'm saying?
39:36
That doesn't pop in my mind when somebody's safe, you know what I'm saying?
39:39
This question comes in mind.
39:40
It goes back to what you're talking about, Eric, but then it goes to your thing as well.
39:43
And obviously, you know, you and I know each other, you know, I'm not challenging on this,
39:46
but like since you brought Will up as an example, how do you as an observer of Will
39:50
know that he has faith and that he has repented.
39:54
So that's the other thing.
39:55
Again, this that may or may not be related, but any time anyone, much less a child, how
40:00
old is he seven?
40:01
Seven.
40:02
Okay.
40:03
Well, like how do you know as dad, because I remember I think I mentioned Tim Charlie's
40:08
own a previous podcast, but I asked him about, you know, kids and salvation, all those types
40:11
of things.
40:12
And one of the things that he mentioned is he's like, you know, he's like, absolutely
40:15
kids can be saved, but what the church should do and what their family should do is wait
40:19
to baptize them to make sure to see that there's fruit and actual.
40:23
So like in how, how do you feel comfortable knowing that he indeed is what you would call
40:29
elect or what some people would call saved or something like that?
40:32
Like what have you seen?
40:33
Because I'm curious as a, as a father of a two year old, you know, as, as my oldest
40:37
child, it's like, you know, I, I can only see if he's Peter's pants are not in the last
40:40
hour.
40:41
Like that's all I can really see about him.
40:42
You know what I mean?
40:43
Yeah.
40:44
I mean, Will, Will's grown.
40:45
You know, he, he asked the questions and that's why I'm going to get in here.
40:48
You know, a mighty fortress is our God was part of the song or him that he wrote.
40:53
And Will had a struggle as we were listening to the song and I was reading the words and
40:58
there's a word.
40:59
So to give some context to this song, this is during the bubonic plague, you know, people
41:03
were dying all around them, you know, it was a tough time.
41:06
And so the first verse is a mighty fortress is our God, a bulwark never failing.
41:11
Our helper he am at the flood of mortal ills prevailing for still our ancient foe does
41:16
seek to work us well, his craft and power are great and armed with cruel hate on earth
41:23
is not his and will was like, what?
41:28
That doesn't have any hate.
41:30
That doesn't be a thing of God is love, you know, God is all about good, you know, and
41:36
I was like, God hates sense, son.
41:38
I was like, what happened here is this is during the bubonic plague.
41:42
All this stuff is going on around them.
41:44
People are dying, you know, and Luther is providing hope in this song that there is a
41:49
mighty fortress to God, even through all this stuff, you know, and through sin that God
41:54
hates, he's still always going to prevail.
41:57
You know, there's a sovereignty aspect aspect to it.
41:59
And so just hearing him ask those questions and then ask more questions in regards to
42:04
that to finally come into inclusion.
42:06
Okay, let's talk about sin.
42:08
And then we talk about sin and we talk about his growth and like, hey, you're a believer,
42:15
you know, you've repented, why did you, you know, why do you, like I asked him before
42:20
we even said the prayer, why do you want to pray?
42:23
You know, and he told me he's like, because I know that I'm not a good person.
42:27
I do these things to my sister.
42:29
I think these things sometimes, and I just know that I need Christ Jesus in me, you know,
42:35
I mean, a seven year old, you know, substitutionary atonement with you, you know what I'm saying?
42:41
Like, we, you've grounded that in them.
42:43
Like, before he's going to be baptized, he's going to know why he's got to tell me why
42:47
he wants to be baptized.
42:48
And it's got to be the right reason to be baptized, or he's not going to get baptized.
42:52
You know, like, I want him to have something to hold onto you.
42:55
But what was funny is I will tell you, like, coming along the lines, he'll, he would want
42:59
to, you know, say the prayer and become safe, and believe.
43:03
And when we go up that night, I'll be like, hey, are you ready to do it?
43:06
And he's like, no, I still have some more sinning to do.
43:08
You know, this is like a six year old, you know what I'm saying?
43:12
Like, you know, he's like, I still got more, because it's just look at that little mind
43:15
and that he knows what he's doing is so serious, and that it's going to change his life that
43:21
he, he goes into it with, with white gloves on.
43:25
You know what I'm saying?
43:26
Like, if I want to do this, I want to do it right, you know what I'm saying?
43:29
And then we had the conversation, you know, hey, buddy, you know, even when you do believe
43:34
you're still going to send your human, you know, but when we're filled with the Holy
43:37
Spirit, that's that conviction of that sin and that's sanctification, you know, and I
43:42
had to talk with him about sanctification, you know.
43:45
And so, you know, three months, four months later, he brings it up again.
43:49
We have the conversation.
43:50
It's probably about a year later.
43:51
He finally, you know, said the prayer, you know, so it just takes time.
43:56
And that's the one thing that we've got to remember is with all believers, there's going
44:00
to be fruit, but there's also going to be times that we send, you know, but it's how
44:04
do we take that?
44:05
You know, how when our brother comes to us and that sin, are we combative, you know,
44:10
or do we sit down and we listen and we try to change and God.
44:14
So I don't know if that was a long rant.
44:17
So, all I know is that my girl knows words that are three syllables long.
44:23
Your son, same age, it was words that are like 18 syllables long.
44:28
That's something special.
44:29
That is impressive.
44:30
Well, he's elect.
44:31
So I don't know.
44:32
Also, he's like to be smarter than your kid.
44:35
Ryan said, let God do, Ken, is that, is that even possible that you let him do anything?
44:41
Let God.
44:42
Oh, of course.
44:43
We're just constantly poking.
44:45
We're poking.
44:46
It's all good.
44:47
No, I appreciate getting into that just because I'm always curious about Christians because
44:51
again, if you didn't come from a Christian home, which I came from, we live in Oklahoma,
44:54
so we believe in God home, but we weren't a Christian home kind of a deal.
44:57
And so it's like, how do you, how do you know, like when, when it's okay to start having
45:01
some of those, those conversations and how do you know if they're understanding it at
45:05
their level?
45:06
Because again, their brains aren't going to be fully developed for another two decades.
45:08
And so it's like, what can they actually fully understand?
45:10
But I appreciate that.
45:11
That's a really beautiful story.
45:12
I like, I liked hearing that.
45:14
That was really cool.
45:15
Well, and that's going to be helpful.
45:16
And this is probably a good time as an aside here, like for those of you listening to this,
45:19
there are going to be things that all of us say every time we come to the forging table
45:23
that are going to be challenging to your paradigm for how you grew up, for the family
45:28
that you grew up in, for the church that you first attended, the church that you're attending
45:31
now, whatever theological background that you have, whatever theological background
45:35
that you don't have.
45:36
And the thing that's so interesting about a conversation like this is all of us.
45:40
So Eric, Ryan, Matt and myself, and anyone else that's going to be sitting at this forging
45:43
table, we're going to be kind of laying ourself and our ignorance bear at different points.
45:49
And I would, I mean, I would almost guarantee that at some point during these conversations,
45:54
we're going to go back on something that we believed not that long ago, as I encourage
45:58
you guys all the time is if you look back on who you were five years ago and you're not
46:01
at least somewhat embarrassed, that means you are not developing as a human being.
46:04
And the same is true with, with your Christian walk and with your understanding of the scriptures
46:08
and theology and different things like that.
46:10
And so just to anybody that's like mad at anybody at the table for something that they
46:14
said, just like we're, we're allowing you to be part of this conversation as we go in
46:18
and try to further understand the scriptures because I don't know about with you guys.
46:21
The first time I read Galatians three this time around, nothing really landed with me.
46:25
And maybe it's because I was just distracted with Galatians two, but then it wasn't until
46:28
I kind of went back through when I heard Johnny Cash say it and whenever he read it and things
46:32
like that, like then things start to kind of come back out.
46:35
One thing I did want to kind of come and talk to a little bit, because we're going to be
46:39
kind of coming towards the end a little bit here is getting into verse 19.
46:44
And it's 19 and 20.
46:45
Why then the law, it was added because of transgressions until the offspring should come
46:49
to whom the promise had been made and it was put in place through angels by the intermediary
46:55
or by an intermediary.
46:56
Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
47:00
So the thing that I think is interesting about that, because we've been talking about law,
47:04
like for the last several weeks, we've been talking about law, you know, are we justified
47:06
by law?
47:07
Why is law there to begin with?
47:09
That was a very nice way of hearing about the law, like the law was there for a time
47:13
and a purpose, and then when Jesus came, he fulfilled the law.
47:17
Again, as he said, I'm going to ruin the quote, but he didn't come to basically get rid
47:21
of the law.
47:22
He came to fulfill it.
47:23
And so I thought that that was an interesting thing that it's almost like a standalone line
47:27
though, like in Galatians three, at least it was to me, versus 19 and 20 to basically
47:32
start talking about why the law was there to begin with, because everything before that
47:36
guys was, Hey, you know, you're not just fired by this law, but then, you know, right towards
47:41
the end of the third chapter, he starts saying like, Hey, this is, this is what the law is.
47:46
Like this is what it was for.
47:47
And it's good for us to kind of understand that and put it in its right context.
47:49
Yeah.
47:50
And I just love, I love this chapter and it's, it's, because it looks back to Genesis 15,
47:58
you know, Abraham and God, they met, right?
48:00
And God said, build an altar because I'm going to make a covenant.
48:07
And we know that, you know, covenants were, you know, it's two parties, you know, making
48:11
an agreement, a covenant with one another and binding it through the sacrifice of an animal.
48:19
And basically saying, if I don't uphold my end of this, may, what we've done with this
48:24
animal be done to me, because it was that serious.
48:28
And so it was so interesting.
48:30
I just love, I loved reading this because I was like, so reminded of that moment when
48:36
God went first, you know, passed through.
48:41
And then nothing after that, nothing.
48:43
He didn't call Abraham to come and do his part.
48:47
God took both parts.
48:48
So he basically was saying, if I don't uphold my promise in this covenant, then may I be
48:57
torn apart like these animals.
48:59
And if you Abraham and your descendant don't uphold your promise, may I be torn apart?
49:07
You know, and that, that was the shadow that was the prophecy, basically in the, in the
49:11
showing that Christ was coming.
49:14
That was the gospel message right there in Genesis 15 and that was just, that's just
49:17
beautiful to me.
49:18
I think that's such a beautiful picture that like even the gospel being preached to Abraham
49:24
as, as we see here of like, this is what's going to happen, and like it's like, and it
49:30
goes into like the God of the Old Testament is the same as the God of the New Testament.
49:35
There's no two separate gods.
49:37
And what a, what a really beautiful story that is.
49:40
That's a great pointer.
49:41
I think it's pretty cool.
49:42
If you look at verse 20, it says now an intermediary implies more than a God.
49:47
So we've been talking about Trinity, right?
49:49
I mean, there's no better way of looking at it, you know, that, you know, God was there
49:55
with Abraham and then God was here with us through Christ.
49:59
You know what I'm saying?
50:00
And so we want to talk about cosmic child abuse, you know, it was like, did God basically abuse
50:04
himself now?
50:05
You know what I'm saying?
50:06
Like that's the argument they made is yeah, he sent his son to abuse him.
50:10
Yeah.
50:11
Yeah.
50:12
It was like, so he sent himself as a son to abuse himself.
50:13
You know what I'm saying?
50:14
That sent himself to save us again, you know, and to save us from sin, you know, and I think
50:20
that's the beautiful thing about it.
50:22
So one thing I think he flows right into verse 21 is the law then contrary to the promises
50:28
of God, certainly not for if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness
50:32
would indeed be by the law.
50:34
Again, it goes, it goes back to everything, goes back to what we talked about last week,
50:37
you know, at the very end of chapter two, verse 21, I do not nullify the grace of God
50:42
for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
50:46
Again, that's that's from which the entirety of the gospel hinges is basically on that,
50:50
not that one scripture, but that reality that Paul talks about at the end of chapter two.
50:54
But then right here, this is a very, very good thing to be like, again, how do we rightly
50:59
categorize what the law was meant for and what the law is now, because you do have people
51:04
that go a little bit farther out on their skis when they say, Oh, that's that's old covenant.
51:08
We don't have to do that stuff anymore.
51:09
That's old covenant, it's usually when they're making a more progressive argument.
51:13
And by progressive, I mean in the modern parlance, which is to mean regressive, but like it is
51:18
a very important thing to understand, like the law is still important, even when the law
51:22
became fulfilled.
51:23
And it's at least important to understand that if you do read the Old Testament, if
51:27
you read through Genesis, you realize that this entire book is about one thing, the gospel
51:31
of Jesus Christ, like that, that's ultimately what this is about.
51:35
Everything somehow, even if it doesn't seem to make sense points to that, that reality
51:39
that we all have to basically center our lives on.
51:41
Yeah.
51:42
Yeah, exactly.
51:43
And you know, very practically, you might run into someone that says, you know, I'm a
51:46
good person.
51:47
I do good things.
51:48
What?
51:49
Why not?
51:50
Why am I not going to go to heaven?
51:51
Come on, prove it to me.
51:52
You know, and then and the law exists because if you just go through those 10, have you
51:58
ever lied?
51:59
Have you ever disobeyed your parents?
52:01
You know?
52:02
You sound like very comfort.
52:03
Yeah.
52:04
That's why I thought you were going.
52:05
Yeah.
52:06
Yeah.
52:07
So, I mean, boom, then you stand condemned, you know, that's that is why the law exists.
52:11
Yeah.
52:12
Show us.
52:13
It's a mirror.
52:14
So before we end, because I know probably not.
52:16
No, go it.
52:17
We got as much time as we need to go ahead.
52:19
Galations three 28.
52:20
Let's just let's just get to it.
52:22
Okay.
52:23
So I have to ask you guys a question.
52:24
You can't you got to read it and then then ask the question.
52:26
Yeah.
52:27
Well, let me ask the question.
52:28
Okay.
52:29
All right, you go.
52:30
And then I'll read it.
52:31
Okay.
52:32
All right.
52:33
All right, guys.
52:34
What is Galations about?
52:35
Is it about salvation?
52:36
Yeah.
52:37
It's about salvation, isn't it?
52:38
It is.
52:39
Yeah.
52:40
It's about our justification.
52:41
Just for Christ.
52:42
Yeah.
52:43
Nothing else.
52:44
Yeah.
52:45
Just do Christ.
52:46
So, Galations three 28.
52:47
There is neither Jew nor Greek.
52:48
There is neither slave nor free.
52:49
There is no male and female for all are one in Christ Jesus.
53:00
This has nothing.
53:01
So we're all not.
53:02
To do with church leadership.
53:03
Yeah.
53:04
I thought it had to be with like we're all non-binary.
53:07
No, I was like there's no male and female.
53:10
Yeah.
53:11
I think yeah.
53:12
This is you were talking about.
53:13
I mean, I think it was a couple of weeks ago versus being taken out of context.
53:16
Yeah.
53:17
Clearly this is a verse that is taken out of context and you can't you cannot read three
53:21
28.
53:22
Boy, you shouldn't read just a Bible verse.
53:24
Yeah.
53:25
Just let's let's start there.
53:27
Don't just read a Bible verse read read the chapter at least if not the whole book.
53:31
Yeah, three 28 is not saying that it has nothing to do with church leadership nothing to do
53:38
with who can and cannot be a pastor.
53:40
So you guys need to back up as to why you're talking about this because again, remember
53:44
this is this is January 2023.
53:46
Everyone's got their own world happening right now.
53:49
Why are y'all bringing this up?
53:50
There is a specific modern culture nowadays, you know, if we go back through Timothy and
53:55
we go back through Titus church leadership is built on a man, you know, just like there
54:02
is a prescription for church leadership.
54:05
Yeah.
54:06
I mean, to be an elder of the church, you have to be a man of good standing, your family
54:09
has to be of good standing.
54:11
Well, now they're making a push.
54:13
Saddleback church is one of them.
54:15
They have a male and female pastor, you know, that's where yeah, yeah, well, yeah, I don't
54:20
think he's there anymore, but he put them into place and they have a female teaching
54:24
pastor and it specifically says in Timothy that, you know, and should preach to men should
54:32
preach to women and children, you know, a woman should not preach, you know, and I feel like
54:39
we're getting away from that and the whole egalitarian, call egalitarianism.
54:44
So egalitarianism takes, there's men and women are equal rather than complimentarianism,
54:49
which says, you know, men and equal men and women are equal on the side of God, but we
54:53
have roles different roles.
54:56
So the e-galitarians take this verse and they say, well, this, this verse right here tells
55:01
you that complimentarianism is wrong because we're all the same in Christ Jesus.
55:07
Yes.
55:08
When it comes to salvation, you know what I'm saying?
55:10
We choose the issue of Galatians, but I mean, we also do, yeah, we also do live in a weird
55:14
culture, but my wife is the only person that can breastfeed our child.
55:19
You know what I'm saying?
55:20
Like, I can't do that.
55:21
How dare you?
55:22
What do you mean?
55:23
What do you mean?
55:24
You said you can't breastfeed your child.
55:25
But Galatians, 328 is there.
55:26
It's there.
55:27
So here's what here's.
55:28
I still have salvation.
55:29
I can't breastfeed my child.
55:30
Obviously, I say that in jazz, but like, like, there are multiple verses that people will
55:41
try to use to sway one side of the argument or not.
55:46
I think, and I don't think this is the, this is the time and place to go through that.
55:52
Um, but I think what is most irritating to me is that this verse is used as a mic drop
56:01
verse.
56:02
Yeah.
56:03
And it has nothing to do with any of that.
56:07
And how arrogant do you have to be to take a letter that was written to persuade a group
56:15
of people that justification is by faith in Christ alone and nothing else and turn that
56:22
into it's about me, your political narrative, your political narrative, like you're what
56:28
you want.
56:30
And I think, I think regardless of where you fall on either side of the argument, I think
56:37
you are doing yourself a disservice and your argument a disservice.
56:41
If you're going to use a verse like Galatians 3 28, and to be clear, Galatians 3 28 is not
56:47
used by a complimentarian's.
56:48
It is only used by a Galatarian's, but it is a, it is a really terrible interpretation
56:55
in use of that verse.
56:56
It's the verse that hinges on their organ.
56:58
Yeah.
56:59
Yeah.
57:00
That's a very, yeah.
57:01
They, they, they think that they can throw that out and it is a mic drop and you're missing
57:04
the point of three 28, because that whole, this whole group of texts is talking about
57:11
how we are all in the family of God, like we are all equal in salvation.
57:19
If we are covered in the righteousness of Christ is, but you've also looked at it too.
57:25
Did the Jews and Greeks stop being Jews and Greeks did slaves stop being slaves and freemen
57:32
stop being freemen after this was written?
57:35
Oh, it all still went on.
57:36
Yeah.
57:37
And again, that's just how it is completely taken out of context.
57:42
And you know, we are, we are all robed in the same righteousness.
57:47
And I think, so sure, it, it doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman, you are still,
57:53
you're filthy rags are replaced with, with Christ garments of righteousness.
57:59
Well, and that's why, well, that's why I think context.
58:02
Is obviously context is important, like breaking news, anyone that didn't know that already.
58:07
But whenever you see someone take a particular scripture and apply it to whatever they need
58:11
you to hear, because again, I thought you're going to be making a joke about there is no
58:14
male or female, right?
58:17
Because if you just take that one scripture out, because this is even in modernity, even
58:20
you know, well-meaning Christians, we love whenever our Bible verses can fit on a tumbler
58:24
or on a t-shirt or a bumper sticker or something like that.
58:28
And we forget about the context and how important that context is to everything overall.
58:32
And if you were to take that out and you were an LGBTQ affirming, you know, rainbow flag
58:37
in your profile picture type of pastor, you could look at that and say, you see, you see,
58:42
whenever I say I'm non-binary, look right here, even Paul, even Paul the apostle, like, you
58:48
know, like the, the great Paul, like he said that there is no male and there is no female.
58:53
And then they will extrapolate from that all of these other things that weren't meant by
58:58
this verse, because obviously if you read this within the context of not even the entire
59:02
letter of Galatians, just the first part of it, right?
59:05
Because again, we broke these up later on in time, so it'd be easier to reference.
59:09
But like around the just the first half of this letter, you're never going to read that
59:13
and think, Oh, egalitarianism is the way to go.
59:16
It's like that's not where we know one is talking about that, like no one at all.
59:20
That's where context is everything.
59:22
So like, you know, I had to listen to a pastor on Mother's Day talk about Phoebe and others,
59:28
you know, if you go and look at in how Paul talks about Phoebe and Romans and NASB or
59:34
ESB, she's a deaconess, but she's a servant of the church, women can, not an elder, not
59:40
a pastor, he's a beakiness.
59:42
But if you go and read the contemporary version, we'll say leader, you know, and so I love
59:51
it, I don't love it, it annoys me when I can see a pastor sit there and talk about certain
59:59
verses of the Bible and use ESB and use NASB, use message, but then go, all right, I want
1:00:05
to, I want to pick and choose this verse right here to kind of push this egalitarian message
1:00:09
and be like, Phoebe was a leader, that wasn't a contemporary context matter, transition
1:00:14
and all matters and as you read, look at the context, read different versions of your Bible,
1:00:21
read ESB, read NASB, read King James, you know, read message, I don't care, read the passion.
1:00:27
Reading single verses out of context can lead to really bad theology and bad theology kills
1:00:32
people.
1:00:33
And like, again, it took me a long time to get there, but like, if you're not reading
1:00:41
your Bible and you can't counteract someone who says that, I wrote down this quote, it's
1:00:47
by Walter Martin, he says, "The existence of the counterfeit predicates the authenticity
1:00:51
of the original."
1:00:52
If you don't know the original word, there's no way you're going to know what a counterfeit
1:00:56
gospel is.
1:00:57
There's no way you're going to be able to refute somebody saying that 328 means that gender
1:01:04
is non-binding or 328 is talking about church leadership.
1:01:08
And church is doing what they do with 328 is no different than the Judaizers.
1:01:13
Absolutely.
1:01:14
And absolutely.
1:01:15
And what they've done to the gospel.
1:01:16
Can we just go back to when you said people should read the message?
1:01:19
I just didn't know like, because there's a lot of great stuff said just there, but like,
1:01:23
I was very distracted.
1:01:24
I think people should read every, you know, every version of the Bible to get the context
1:01:28
of it.
1:01:29
I mean, I wouldn't say just read the message, you know, I know it would take me 18 months
1:01:34
to get the message.
1:01:35
There's worse.
1:01:36
And that one was a little bit worse.
1:01:38
Okay.
1:01:39
The passion is not a translation of the Bible.
1:01:41
Let's start there.
1:01:42
Yeah.
1:01:43
That's not a real, that's not a real version.
1:01:44
I will die.
1:01:45
I will die on that hill.
1:01:46
The passion is not a translation of the Bible.
1:01:47
The message is there are some problems and I'm not an expert on this, but just my small
1:01:54
experience in seeing what the message says, there's some problematic verses in there.
1:02:01
I think for me, the ESV, the NASB, the NIV, those are good, solid translations.
1:02:09
I think obviously kids, they're not, my son is not going to read from an ESV seven, but
1:02:18
I think you've got to gradually take them along that path to where they can read one
1:02:24
that they understand.
1:02:25
Like, there's a storybook Bible and we're literally learning about this in my son is
1:02:29
a school class and this is fresh, so there's a storybook Bible, and then you should get
1:02:32
them a translation that kids can understand.
1:02:33
I think, I think NLT is one of those for kids and then obviously like ESV is, I didn't,
1:02:40
I haven't always read the ESV, but like accuracy matters to me.
1:02:45
I read the ESV to put him to sleep in.
1:02:46
Oh boy.
1:02:47
So like, hey man, we've got a chapter in Romans.
1:02:50
Let's go.
1:02:51
Fellas, we, we went everywhere in this conversation.
1:02:53
We did eventually talk about Galatians three, right?
1:02:55
We did like, was that something that we actually covered?
1:02:57
Summed up.
1:02:59
Because that's what we were supposed to do.
1:03:00
So that's good.
1:03:01
But we're going to have to leave it there.
1:03:02
But come back next Sunday, where we'll dig into Galatians four.
1:03:05
Make sure you read that.
1:03:06
So you're prepared for next week.
1:03:07
But before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost at undaunted life.
1:03:09
Our mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that for just spiritual
1:03:13
mental and physical resilience.
1:03:14
The only link I've got for you today is the donation link again, guys.
1:03:17
We need your support.
1:03:18
If you like this content, if you like everything that we create on this podcast or anything
1:03:21
at undaunted life is because we have donors that are partnering with us.
1:03:24
So go to undaunted.life/donate that will be in the show notes.
1:03:28
Thank you guys for listening to this episode.
1:03:29
Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate and leave us a positive five-star
1:03:32
of you.
1:03:33
If you want to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, you shoot me an email
1:03:36
to info@undaunted.life.
1:03:38
That's i-n-f-o at Undaunted.life.
1:03:41
Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else,
1:03:44
including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way.
1:03:46
Just go to www.undaunted.life and as always, we want to thank the band, August Burns Red
1:03:51
for allowing us to use their music for our content.
1:03:54
And music on this podcast is our song "Cutting the Tides" which is off their 10th anniversary
1:03:57
re-recording of their album Leveler.
1:03:59
The links are in the description.
1:04:01
I'm your host, Kyle Thompson.
1:04:03
Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental and physical resilience.
1:04:09
Keep seeking the Lion of Judah.
1:04:24
And the light comes, you'll be re-absorbed.