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This is Undaunted Life of Man's Podcast.
0:54
I'm your host Kyle Thompson.
0:56
Let's get into it.
0:57
Scroll back to the forging table.
0:58
The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with content that
1:01
forges spiritual mental and physical resilience.
1:04
At the forging table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience
1:07
by digging into God's Word, and we're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with
1:10
us.
1:11
That's OG Browning.
1:12
That's OG Grassmeyer.
1:13
And then I guess you're technically OG Chandler now, because this is your fourth appearance
1:17
on the forging table.
1:19
I mean, it feels like I've got to be an OG at this point.
1:21
Now Matt, here's the deal.
1:23
You've had some accolades.
1:24
You've done some big conferences.
1:25
You've sold some books, you've been on some bestseller lists, but like if you had to like
1:29
rank order where the fourth appearance on the forging table would be like how many important
1:34
things would be below that?
1:35
Because I know it's at the top, but like how many like really important things would be
1:38
below that?
1:39
I keep short lists.
1:40
Yeah.
1:41
Of four or five.
1:42
Yeah.
1:43
This is up there, guys.
1:44
It's up there.
1:45
This is your Mount Rushmore of your career happening.
1:46
It's like it's just studying the Bible with good men.
1:48
Like, come on.
1:49
That can't.
1:50
Guys, no one's good.
1:51
You call them out.
1:52
No one's good.
1:53
Guys, we're David.
1:54
Oh, there it is.
1:55
We've got to work that in every episode.
1:57
Every single episode.
1:58
But here's the thing.
1:59
One thing that we do get to do because we're going to dig into Axate here in just a second.
2:02
But as we've done with Joby once a month for the last several months and we're just
2:06
going to keep doing, you know, until he finally gets tired of me, we do it ask a pastor episode.
2:10
And so we get episodes or we get questions from me.
2:13
I get questions from my forging tablers and we get questions from our donor.
2:16
So guys, if you want to have your question inserted into that, you know, mailbag or whatever
2:20
you want to call it or our little bank of questions, you do have to be a monthly donor.
2:24
But we want to hit you with like a little mini one.
2:26
Like we did a couple of weeks ago list, so we're going to do a little mini one here.
2:29
So I'm going to lead off why they think about their one bullets because, well, get one question.
2:33
Oh, are you ready?
2:34
Grasmire.
2:35
You live ready.
2:36
Like, OK, put that mustache on the mic and give me your question is Hitler involved in
2:39
your question?
2:40
No, I know.
2:41
OK.
2:42
It's a great question.
2:43
That is a good question.
2:44
It is a good question.
2:45
I was here way too long while we were discussing that.
2:47
It's OK.
2:48
It's OK.
2:49
Hit your question.
2:50
Mine's pretty simple.
2:51
Like reading the Bible, but I also like reading past theologians, who's your favorite theologian
2:59
to read?
3:00
I mean, if you listen to me, I had a guy in college tell me that on top of Bible study,
3:06
I need to find an ancient friend and that that ancient friend would tether me or anchor
3:12
me.
3:13
Amazing advice.
3:14
Regardless of how the culture changed in my lifetime.
3:18
And so my guy's Augustine.
3:20
So love Augustine.
3:22
But I mean, I'm a huge Lewis fan, huge Tolkien.
3:26
I mean, I love Spurgeon.
3:28
I mean, I've got a lot of guys, but Augustine's my guy.
3:32
Like if I'm hanging out with the dead guy, it's Augustine.
3:35
So what would you all I'm curious about?
3:36
Y'all.
3:37
What would you all be?
3:38
Who's who's your old dead guy?
3:39
That's your friend here?
3:41
I mean, I would say C.S. Lewis would be mine.
3:45
And I just kind of got into a point in my life where I don't have a distrust from all
3:50
new texts that are written, but I have a skepticism about most of them.
3:55
And I know that I can go back, like right now I'm reading a biography on George Whitfield.
4:00
Come on.
4:01
Love it.
4:02
Yeah.
4:03
So good.
4:04
Whitfield is great.
4:05
His letters to Wesley.
4:06
Man, he does not pull punches.
4:08
Mine would probably be Spurgeon.
4:11
I'm really big Spurgeon.
4:12
If anybody's listening to the forging table, listen to me like they know that I love Spurgeon.
4:15
I also like John Owens, like he's just brilliant.
4:17
But now I'm with you, Lewis.
4:20
If you want to read some really deep theological themes and read them with your kids in a way
4:25
that they understand, read Lewis, read the Chronicles of Narnia because there are some
4:30
really rich like knowledge in there and like who God is, what God is, like how we interact
4:36
with God.
4:37
There's some really, really great things in Lewis and I read those with my kids and it's
4:42
pretty powerful.
4:43
You read a severe mercy, yeah, so good, not written by C.S. Lewis, but written by a guy
4:48
that had a friendship with C.S. Lewis.
4:50
That was phenomenal.
4:51
A quick story about my oldest son.
4:53
This is just the power of Lewis and a child out.
4:55
Shout out, Trafford.
4:56
What up?
4:57
Come on.
4:58
The power of just letting your kids just marinate in some of these themes.
5:05
And like, you know, Tolkien said that all of history is myth, but the one real true myth
5:10
is Christ.
5:12
And Lewis kind of does some similar things and, you know, I think I've told this one
5:16
on the Forging Table 4, but this is just a really amazing story for me.
5:20
The Chronicles of Narnia are great.
5:21
The Voyage of the Dawn Treader is obviously one of the books, but it's also a movie.
5:25
And so Trafford has read all of these books.
5:28
He's just a voracious reader, so he's read these books.
5:30
We're watching the Voyage of the Dawn Treader and one of the characters used as, whose nickname
5:34
in the book is, they call him useless.
5:37
And he's just this kind of [inaudible] guy who just know, he's a know-it-all, but he's really
5:42
smug.
5:43
Like he's Calvinist smug.
5:44
Ah, that's a whole different level.
5:47
That's a level.
5:48
That's a level that's DEF CON 1 smugness.
5:51
I can say that as a Calvinist, right?
5:53
Yes, you can.
5:54
So it's fine.
5:55
You pass.
5:56
So there's this point in the book where he like tries, he turns it, his greed is his
6:01
sin and turns him into a dragon, right?
6:03
And so this, just this theme of like your sin turns you into something that you don't
6:06
want to be.
6:07
By the time you get to that, like you're so far gone, but you've turned into this thing
6:11
that you didn't want.
6:12
And so he, the whole movie, there's this intertwining theme of him trying to get out
6:17
of that, him trying to work himself out of this dragon skin.
6:21
And finally, he like comes in contact with Aslan, who is the Christ figure in the Chronicles
6:28
of Narnia.
6:29
He's the son of the great emperor across the sea.
6:32
And his, he, he turns back into a boy because he comes in the presence of Aslan or Christ.
6:42
And I, I'll never forget this and I, and I wrote it down.
6:44
I've, I've written Traford a letter containing this, because I was just so proud and I probably
6:49
can start crying because it's just a really, really cool thing.
6:52
So we're just talking through it and I was like, Hey, what do you think about that?
6:54
And he's just like, you can see him just sitting there.
6:56
He's like, well, obviously like, it's like seven year old, obviously.
7:02
He's like, I know things.
7:05
Him becoming a dragon is his sin.
7:08
And he, we can't do anything to get rid of our sin.
7:12
And Aslan is Jesus and he had to come to Jesus to remove the sin and like, that's the kind
7:21
of stuff that man, if you'll just, if you'll just let you, God work and like, you, you don't
7:26
like the Bible is great, but man, there are some things out there too, like Lewis is a
7:29
perfect example.
7:30
He can, he can teach us some things that the kids can understand.
7:34
And Lewis's favorite line was like a children's story that was only written for children isn't
7:38
a good children story.
7:39
Yeah.
7:40
Exactly.
7:41
So like even that scene, I don't know that I've ever read that scene when he begins to,
7:44
you know, remove used to his scales.
7:47
Yeah.
7:48
And the movie, it's different.
7:49
And it's painful.
7:50
The book, like when in the book where he's, when he's, he's using his claws, it's like
7:54
the most painful experience, but at the same time, it's this like amazing feeling and relief
7:59
that I didn't even know as possible.
8:01
Yeah.
8:02
Yeah.
8:03
I've never read that and not tiered up that little section.
8:04
Yeah.
8:05
Yeah.
8:06
It's just so powerful.
8:07
It really is.
8:08
Yeah.
8:09
So Lewis is brilliant.
8:10
I mean, these are all good suggestions.
8:11
Mine's Joel Osteen.
8:12
I just like, I knew it was coming.
8:13
I knew it was coming.
8:14
I know who's going to be, but I knew it was coming.
8:15
But he's not dead.
8:16
I know he's not, but I in my head, he's kind of, he's sort of dead, but like, not that
8:21
I'm wishing that upon him, but it's just, yeah, I mean, I just can't, I can't think of
8:24
a better guy to attach myself to.
8:26
So great question, and I love to end my questions with serious answers.
8:30
So Browning, now it's your turn to ask a pastor.
8:32
He's right across from me.
8:33
Hit it.
8:34
Matt, how often do you think about Rome?
8:36
Oh, that's hilarious.
8:37
That's hilarious.
8:38
You've got Roman Empire.
8:39
Every day.
8:40
Correct.
8:41
That's the correct answer.
8:42
Yeah.
8:43
It's a weird, when that thing started going around, I was like, oh my gosh, I do think I
8:47
think about Rome a lot.
8:49
But yeah, but part of the very essence of what I do is studying and what's gone on in
8:53
that part of the world, when they were at their, when they were at their apex.
8:57
So I tried to write it off as that, but I've seen them be glad to hear way too many times.
9:02
It's the one, I feel the need to go, actually go back.
9:05
I know it's doing the Jollusting thing.
9:06
C.S.
9:07
Lewis is mine as well.
9:08
He's the only person on the book list are the 100 books every modern Christian Manchin
9:11
Readless, which you are featured on with the explicit gospel.
9:14
Oh, yeah.
9:15
It's up there on the show.
9:16
I saw it.
9:17
I saw it.
9:18
You probably need to get over there.
9:19
I saw it.
9:20
That's the 100 books every modern Christian Manchin Readless.
9:21
Yours is featured prominently in the Christian category.
9:22
And we've had this debate even recently.
9:24
I have, I think there's six C.S. Lewis books on there, and so I'm like, okay, he just gets
9:29
his own category.
9:30
Yeah.
9:31
So he's the only author that has his own category, but now it is painful because that's a living
9:35
list.
9:36
So I will take books off and add books to it.
9:37
So there's probably been about 25% turnover since I created the list for the first time,
9:41
six or seven years ago.
9:43
And so, but there's certain books, it's like, which, oh, I'm just going to get rid of the
9:46
grief observed or the screw tape letters or mere Christianity.
9:49
Which one am I just going to get rid of?
9:51
Or, you know, I wish I could put, you know, I just think it's cheating to say it's like,
9:54
okay, the entire works of one person, I wish there was a box set of the six books that
9:59
I've chosen.
10:00
But that box doesn't quite, quite exist and all that.
10:02
So, but C.S. Lewis would be mine.
10:04
So my question before we dig into Acts eight, and, you know, I always like to ask big questions
10:11
that require a lot of thought.
10:12
Yeah.
10:13
And so if you need to take a, take a break, take a walk, really think about.
10:15
So I'm guessing this one won't be one of them since you're setting it up this way.
10:18
You never know.
10:19
I'm all about misdirection.
10:20
I, we rolled earlier today.
10:21
Oh, I know.
10:22
My ear might feel it.
10:23
You're telling me right now.
10:24
Lots of misdirection.
10:25
Is a hot dog a sandwich.
10:27
Oh.
10:28
Yeah.
10:29
I'm going to go.
10:30
No.
10:31
Why?
10:32
No.
10:33
Yeah.
10:34
I think when I think of a sandwich, I don't think of a bun.
10:36
I think of just bread.
10:38
You know what most people think when they think a sandwich?
10:40
Meat in between bread.
10:42
I don't know if that's, I don't know that you can say most people.
10:45
I think my brother Matt here has some, I don't know.
10:47
I would like to give some historical context to the sandwich.
10:51
So the Earl of Sandwich took slices of bread.
10:54
All right.
10:55
Okay.
10:56
Slice is, is crucial to the argument.
10:58
Okay.
10:59
So it's a stack.
11:00
So the bread, then the meat, cheese, whatever.
11:01
And then another stacked on top.
11:03
A bun does not allow you to do that.
11:05
So could we say that it is an open face sandwich?
11:10
No, because again, you go back to the stacking, you're like the Earl of Sandwich like right
11:15
here in front of us.
11:16
And the flesh.
11:17
Go back to the stacking.
11:18
Like there has to be a base that is flat.
11:21
There has to be a foundation, if you will.
11:24
Okay.
11:25
As well as a firm foundation.
11:26
Yeah.
11:27
A firm foundation.
11:28
Maybe even a firm foundation.
11:29
Not a like, not a like.
11:30
Yeah.
11:31
Yeah.
11:32
Yeah.
11:33
So okay.
11:34
That is way more than I thought I would ever get from that.
11:35
Thank you guys.
11:36
I feel challenged.
11:37
Yeah.
11:38
And replenished.
11:39
Thank you.
11:40
I feel like I need to repent somehow after this, this question.
11:42
But let's go ahead and get into Acts eight.
11:44
So as we left off last week, we have the first martyr in Stephen and Saul is introduced in
11:50
a very villainous way at the end of Acts seven.
11:52
And so Matt, you look ready and rare to go.
11:55
Mr. Grassmeyer, that is.
11:56
Let's do the first three verses of chapter eight of Acts.
11:59
I think Matt Chandler also looks ready to go to.
12:02
Yeah.
12:03
Yeah.
12:04
He's ready.
12:05
He's jumping at the panel.
12:06
One through eight.
12:07
One through three.
12:08
Oh, wow.
12:09
Oh, for zealous over here and Saul approved of his execution.
12:12
And there arose on that day a great persecution against the church in Jerusalem.
12:16
And they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles.
12:21
Devout men buried Stephen and made great lamentation over him.
12:26
But Saul was ravaging the church and entering house after house.
12:29
He dragged off men and women and committed them to prison.
12:33
Saul's a terrorist.
12:34
So that's the way to look at this.
12:36
So when you look at what Hamas did on October the seventh, when you look at what Isis did
12:41
in Iraq and Syria, when you look at what Boko Haram is still doing in Nigeria that nobody
12:46
is talking about to this day, that's what Saul is doing.
12:49
So when you fast forward to the Pauline letters and you look at Paul is just this squeaky clean
12:55
guy.
12:56
God, he wrote a third of the New Testament like this guy.
12:58
This is the guy.
12:59
Right.
13:00
I know that.
13:01
I know that you know that he used to be Saul and is now Paul.
13:03
This is the guy.
13:04
This is Osama bin Laden.
13:05
This is the current leader of any of these movements that are beheading people, raping
13:10
people, destroying entire villages.
13:13
That is Saul of Tarsus.
13:15
So I can't stand it when people like because we see him in some sort of mosaic or in some
13:20
sort of fancy window or artwork depiction.
13:22
We forget about this again, you know, whether you're, you know, a big tool a person or not,
13:27
depravity is real and the level of depravity that we see here is substantial.
13:33
But when you hear Christians and non-Christians debate, it always comes down to, but why do
13:39
bad things happen to good people?
13:41
Now it ignores the question of who is good, right?
13:44
It just ignores that and goes right past it.
13:47
But because of the persecution, they were scattered.
13:50
Yep.
13:51
And because they were scattered, that created the first opportunity for missionary outreach
13:56
in the church.
13:57
No question.
13:58
Yeah.
13:59
And so again, I always use this example because it's horrific and we all know stories like
14:02
this, the little girl that is kidnapped, tortured, raped, and then murdered.
14:08
When you say, you use that as your extreme example as to how a God that's loving and
14:12
protective couldn't possibly exist, you were assuming that you can see the judgment seat
14:17
that sees every single tendril coming off of that situation and you have judged all of
14:22
them as negative and evil.
14:25
And gosh, I just don't ever want to put myself in that place of judgment.
14:27
So let's talk a little bit about Saul of Tarsus here and just the scattering that we see from
14:31
the beginning.
14:32
Yeah.
14:33
Well, one of the things, I think one of the things that starts to come out here and then
14:36
you just begin to see it as the church grows is that Jesus has redeemed not just people,
14:43
not just Israel, but even the rhythm that Israel was in.
14:46
So dispersion is the threat from day one.
14:50
Here's my covenant with you.
14:51
I will keep you.
14:52
I will be with you.
14:54
If you obey my law, if you return my love, then it will go well with you in the land.
15:02
But if you don't, then the plagues of Egypt and eventually slavery are yours again.
15:07
And so Israel, until this moment, every dispersion of the people of God out of Jerusalem is around
15:13
disobedience.
15:15
And now we get this dispersion through the obedience of one man, Stephen.
15:20
And so this is our first dispersion of the people of God out of the promised land that's
15:26
a part, it's a whole different game now.
15:28
The dispersion's been born of obedience, not disobedience.
15:33
And really, if you're listening to this, your conversion is tied to this moment because
15:39
this is the dispersion that plants the church and you'll get into this in the weeks ahead.
15:43
But this is the church.
15:45
This is the disbursement that leads to the planting of the church at Antioch.
15:50
Antioch is where Saul, Paul, and Barnabas are sent out on the three missionary journeys
15:57
across the ancient world.
15:59
So this is the moment and you're alluded to it where the church probably feels in a lot
16:05
of trouble.
16:06
They just lost one of their studs.
16:07
There's not a lot of studs right now.
16:09
So just lost Stephen, who's the guy man, he can fix organizational problems, he can preach
16:14
the lights off, the guy was just the kind of guy you want on your team and he just got
16:21
killed in front of everybody.
16:23
And so, oh my gosh, if they can kill Stephen, what does that mean for me?
16:27
I mean, we only have so many apostles, so many guys.
16:32
It's not like Christianity now where you might come across some faithful guy, pastor in a
16:36
church of 50,000 you've never even heard of.
16:39
That's not this moment.
16:41
And so this dispersion is the first one where the people of God are moved out of the promised
16:48
land because of obedience, specifically Stephen's obedience.
16:53
And this is the one that changes the world as we know it.
16:56
Like you get to 2.3 billion Christians worldwide, not that I believe all of those are actually
17:00
Christians, but claiming the name of Christ in some way, gosh, we'll see in this text,
17:04
you can claim the name of Christ and just be trying to co-opt him.
17:08
But I love this first verse because this first verse is I see myself, this is like Matt Chandler's
17:15
lines tied to this moment.
17:17
Like I'm going to get caught up in this little dispersion that just happened.
17:21
The gospel will find its way to me because of this moment.
17:25
And that's just a profound thing that happens here.
17:28
This idea that Jesus is just switch, he's redemption, hasn't just saving people, but
17:34
he's saving this whole system that they've been stuck in and stuck themselves in.
17:40
And now the dispersion is part of obedience, not disobedience.
17:42
Well, and if you were to only hover and look over the situation and what happened to Stephen,
17:47
you would say net negative.
17:48
This is bad.
17:49
If you go back to Genesis 50, Joseph said to them, do not fear, for am I in the place
17:54
of God?
17:55
As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good to bring it about that
18:00
many people should be kept alive as they are today.
18:02
Hello?
18:03
Yeah.
18:04
Like that's the moment that we're in.
18:05
So again, I always rail on univariate analysis and it's like, okay, the reason why we do that
18:10
is because it's convenient.
18:12
You go one level deep, you make your decision, you choose your team, you get your flag and
18:15
you plan it, right?
18:17
The problem is almost nothing is that simple.
18:20
And so you do need to dig several layers deeper.
18:23
So when you look at a situation and say, there's no good that could possibly come from
18:26
this again, I warn you, atheist listening to this, and I know that our atheist listeners
18:29
were so glad that you are listening to something like this type of a robust discussion.
18:33
But you've got to reckon with the fact that do you really want to accept that judgment
18:37
seat where you say that there is no possible way that any positive can come from this negative
18:41
situation?
18:42
It's like, bro, you don't want to do that.
18:43
Nope.
18:44
Don't want to do that at all.
18:45
That's too, and it's interesting, last week we talked about we introduced, or we got introduced
18:50
to Paul, and Stephen's last words are, "Lord, do not hold this sit against them."
18:54
And he asked them, he's basically asking for forgiveness, Saul standing there, like Saul
18:59
and Paul, like Paul is forever tethered to this moment too.
19:02
And I think this is obviously speculation, but I imagine as he's writing Letter to Romans
19:08
and we're in chapter eight, and he's saying all things work for the good of those who
19:12
love God in Romans 828, I wonder if he is thinking back through his life of, "Oh, wow."
19:20
This clearly is one of those moments, or even in the death of Stephen, which was kind of
19:25
the springboard to me, and I'm hating God, and we all hate God, until we are clothed
19:34
in Christ, and we have union with Christ, but that's a very interesting thing for me
19:38
to think about, is like, yeah, Romans 828 is played out through the rest of the New Testament.
19:46
I was just thinking about what happened within the camp of believers at that moment, when
19:52
Stephen was stoned, was there a standstill in conversions?
19:58
Did it accelerate?
19:59
I mean, I don't know that I know that.
20:02
I was thinking about just how blessed we are in America, historically, to have the freedom
20:07
to worship freely.
20:09
I know that the Bible is very clear that if we're true believers, we're going to encounter
20:13
persecution, but I do know that in parts of the world, where they're doing discipleship
20:19
with non-believers, like taking them through Bible studies, whatnot Middle East, Aries
20:23
in the Middle East, where it's harsh if you're found out to be a believer.
20:27
These guys are making this decision to become a believer based on the fact that they know
20:33
that if confronted, it could cost them their life immediately, and yet they're all in.
20:40
I just, to me, that's just amazing.
20:42
Matt, I know you can't get into too much detail because you're working in some of these places
20:47
that are behind the scenes, but if you could, because I know we still have quite a bit to
20:50
cover, but flow on that a little bit because people especially here in the burbs of Oklahoma
20:57
or the Dallas Metroplex, we don't even think about those things and think about what the
21:02
spirit is doing and how it's moving in places where you can't just openly have a Bible study
21:06
like this.
21:07
Yeah, and I think we might be seen, even in this moment, the largest revival in the world
21:12
in Iran in particular, Uchin into Iraq, and it's, "I'm really hopeful that in the next
21:19
eight to ten years, there'll be some changes there where we're more free to talk about
21:23
those things," but man, the number of, like, these are just stories from recent team.
21:31
just had a team come back, actually got detained. But like a guy having the same exact dream
21:38
about Jesus over and over and over and over again. And then my friend who was on that team
21:44
met multiple guys that all had the same exact dream. Like it wasn't like this one. I mean,
21:52
this is what Jesus looked like. This is what Jesus said. This is what Jesus looked like. This is what
21:56
Jesus said. This is what Jesus looked like. This is what Jesus said. And so it's just happening at
22:01
a rate now that that's rather stunning. And so they're having to get really creative around how
22:08
they figure out how to how to do discipleship, how to gather, how to it's it's always
22:15
yeah, it's the grounds always I don't want to use word fragile, but that's what's in my head that
22:21
the grounds always thin. You don't know who might invite. But here's the game that can be played
22:29
legally is that the Muslims are supposed to study the prophets. Well, Jesus is in the Quran.
22:36
Yesa. And so I would love to let's get together and let's study Yisa. And that's not illegal.
22:43
Now it is illegal to ask someone to convert to him. So that's why I think the dream things going
22:49
the way it is because Jesus will just handle that. And then and then that's the testimonies coming
22:56
back. We're studying the Bible with people because you legally can. And then boom, they're like,
23:02
hey, last night, this is what Jesus asked me. I said, yes, what does that mean?
23:05
Yeah, that's incredible. I just am reminded of what we see with Nabil Kureshi who reads out what
23:10
you're going to go ahead. No, please, please, please. That's all I was going to say is like,
23:13
that's kind of similar to how Nabil Kureshi was doing things when he was talking to Muslims is
23:17
like, OK, like we know we we're talking about the same guy. Let's let's start there and let's
23:22
fight the foundation there. And it's interesting that when the when the Word of God is suppressed
23:26
by legal action, the gospel explodes, seeking a law, finding Jesus by Nabil Kureshi will
23:33
absolutely explode your plausibility structure about how the Holy Spirit communicates to us.
23:38
Unbelievably or a wind in the house of Allah. There's another great book.
23:42
Okay, very good. So yeah, it gets into a lot more detail of what's going on over there and what,
23:46
I mean, a wind in the house of Allah. I think it's called a wind.
23:49
Yeah, well, while you're looking that up, the bill has three different books. So it's like
23:54
seeking a law, finding Jesus, no God, but one. And there is one that he specifically wrote about
23:58
jihad. And so like, they're incredibly important books because it's like, it's one thing to read
24:03
a Wikipedia page about the different, you know, ideologies and in schools of thought under Islam.
24:08
It's a different thing whenever you grow up from multiple decades. And you're actually an
24:12
apologist for your school of Islam. But we can't get too far off the text because there's still more
24:17
to cover. So Matt Chandler, you're going to read. Am I? Okay. So, but we're going to give you a
24:22
small section just in case, you know, like we got the small, you know, they got the high problems.
24:26
No, I've got the bigger Bible. So what we're going to do is we're just going to make sure
24:29
you want me to hold it up. Like I can just hold it up. No, I need it distant from me.
24:32
Oh, just in my best. Yeah. I don't know about the old eyes thing. So like, you're going to hit
24:36
four through eight. Okay. I'm just making sure I've got, oh, it's just this little section where
24:43
Philip proclaims Christ in Samaria. Yeah, it's just a little thing. Now, those who were scattered
24:48
went about preaching the word. Philip went down to the city of Samaria and proclaimed to them Christ.
24:54
And the crowds with one accord paid attention to what was being said by Philip. When they heard
25:01
him and saw the signs that he did and that he did for unclean spirits crying out with a loud
25:09
voice came out of many who had them and many who are paralyzed or lame were healed. So there
25:15
was much joy in that city. So I don't want to really buzz through this, but we do need to get
25:20
some other to some other stuff in there. But he's the first Christian missionary, right? Like for
25:24
all intents and purposes. And so for for somebody that has done missionary work and that has,
25:30
you know, sent out and equipped missionaries through the village church, but also through Acts 29,
25:35
like, how much do you do you point to people to Philip or point to the lessons that we see in
25:40
Acts? Because I would find it to be, you would be ill-equipped to go out and do missionary work
25:45
if you haven't studied through Acts personally, but let's go for it. Yeah. Well, Philip's doing
25:49
what you do. You land in a place and you begin to proclaim the word of God. We don't have a lot
25:55
of information, but we know that Philip is very well versed in the scriptures. And we know he's
25:59
really good at contextualizing it. And we're going to find that out later in this chapter,
26:03
or maybe it's in the next. No, we'll find it out in this chapter. That's right.
26:08
Well, yeah, yeah, right later on in Acts 8. So he is able to bring the Bible to bear on where
26:14
people find themselves, which would have been a challenge in Samaria, right? There's some theological
26:18
issues in Samaria. Not maybe more than they would have experienced in Jerusalem with the Jews,
26:26
but this is a whole different thing that the Samaritans believe. Different mountain,
26:30
different relationship with God, different, the Samaritans are a whole different animal,
26:36
but the word of God works. Certainly works. And I think another thing to talk about here is anyone
26:41
that's been on a kind of modern worship, not worship, but missionary work. Sometimes people
26:46
go into missionary work thinking like, I just need a reset. I need to go to a place where
26:51
there's poor people that are happy and they'll help me like feel better about the fact that I don't
26:55
have all the things that I need and blah, blah, blah. And so their heart going into mission work
26:59
is different. Philip probably didn't even have a category for that type of thought process.
27:04
He's like, I'm walking into the lines in here, at least intellectually, to try and figure out
27:09
exactly what what's going on. But then like he is proclaiming Christ to these people and not doing
27:15
it in a way that maybe anyone would have expected just weeks before this was actually going down.
27:20
So go ahead, please, Matt. I think this is a good time to talk about like where we're called to
27:25
be missionaries to. Obviously, Philip was called to go to Samaria. And I think sometimes, and I'm
27:31
certainly one that was, you know, guilty of this, I thought, okay, being a Christian means I have
27:36
to be a foreign missionary. I've been there at one point in my life. And it wasn't until I got married.
27:44
It wasn't really what I got married because that still wasn't a mission for me when we first got
27:48
married. But when you have kids and you start to think through these things, and it was really
27:51
about 2019, 2020 that I really started to process through like our we're called to be missionaries
27:57
to our wife and kids as men. And if you're not doing that, I think you're in air. And if you're
28:02
skipping that step, like you're going to be held accountable. And again, I'm saying that to me
28:08
more than anybody, but like we're called to be missionaries to our family. And we can't skip that.
28:14
Guys, we were talking about that last night on the porch while we were having to cook out and
28:18
join just time and fellowship with one another, because we got to talk about Jordan Peterson and
28:22
some of his comments he's made over the last several months. And you know, his forthcoming book
28:25
in November and all that. And it's like, even though I talk about Jordan Peterson on my show,
28:29
I keep trying to remind people like, let's not get wrapped around the axle about whether or not,
28:33
you know, one of the most foremost clinical psychologist, one of the best-selling nonfiction
28:37
authors of the last century, or not century, but the last decade certainly, whether or not he
28:42
becomes a Christian, and forget about our neighbor, our literal neighbor, like the people that live
28:47
on either side of us, or the person that we work with that, you know, has a high level of trust in
28:52
you, or that even just someone that you would share Christ with in a random scenario, a buddy of
28:56
mine that was with us last night, KP, the guy that introduced me to your preaching mat way back
29:00
when we were in college, he was talking about, I've shared Christ more working for this roofing
29:05
company than I ever have in any other context in my life, because it's a Christian company,
29:10
and it's, you know, it's got acts in the name of the roofing company and all that kind of stuff,
29:15
but you're going to these people, and, you know, they call you because, you know,
29:17
State Farm wants you to come out and have a guy look at your roof, and, you know, hey,
29:20
let's, you know, see where all the hell dents are, and like, yeah, let's, you know, let's replace,
29:23
let's not replace that, but then you have a time when someone just thinking this is a transactional
29:27
thing where it's like, you get to share Christ with that person, and just imagine if you were just
29:32
in your truck on your way to the job site, and you're listening to Jordan Peterson, you're like,
29:35
oh, come on, Jordan, you can do it, or listen to the Joe Rogan experience. Oh, Joe Rogan, like,
29:39
I promise you can be there if only we could get, you know, Frank Turic on that show,
29:43
you know, he would finally convert him or something like that. That's what I just try to say, like,
29:46
you know, let's make sure that you realize your mission field is wherever you are right now,
29:50
whatever job you're in and all of that. That's a very important thing.
29:52
Yeah, I know just from a very practical standpoint, one of the things I was, I was taught by the
29:56
navigators is to have a, a hit list or a top five list. It's five, five people that you know are
30:02
not believers, or you presume to not be believers, that you just constantly pray for and ask for
30:09
opportunities to be a witness in their life, not just through modeling, obviously, but actually in
30:15
word. And if so, if five sounds like too many, well, then follow the church of 11 to 22 way of
30:20
doing it, it's just like, who's your one more? Who's your one more? Like the first time I visited
30:24
down there in Jacksonville, and I'm at the San Pablo campus, the main campus where Joby
30:27
preaches from, they're kind of giving me the tour. They had their one more wall. I mean,
30:31
there's just markers sitting right there, and you just write your one more up on that wall.
30:36
So I wrote my one more up on that wall. And the thing is, is like, of all the people, even if I had
30:40
my five, there's one. And it's my dad, like, and I'm just so desperate. Yeah, for that situation,
30:47
just because of what I want for him, not just in this life, but certainly for the next. So that's
30:51
all certainly good advice. But Eric, if you will keep this momentum going, let's get into the David
30:56
Copperfield of the Acts of the Apostles. You want to go David Blaine? No, but here's the Chris
31:03
Angel. Angel, there it is. Here's the Chris Angel of Acts, bottom bang. Let's start in verse nine and
31:08
go through 25. Whoo. Got me like reading that the chapter. All right. All right. Here we go.
31:14
You can get it. But there was a man named Simon who had previously practiced magic in the city and
31:20
amazed the people of Samaria, saying that he himself was somebody great. They all paid attention to
31:26
him from the least to the greatest saying, this man is the power of God that is called great.
31:33
And they paid attention to him because it was a long time he had to maze them with his magic.
31:38
But when they believed Philip that he preached good news about the Kingdom of God and the name
31:44
of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women, even Simon himself believed. And after being
31:51
baptized, he continued with Philip and seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed.
31:56
Now, when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God,
32:02
they sent to them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them, that they may not receive
32:08
the Holy Spirit, for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the
32:14
name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.
32:20
Now, when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles hands,
32:25
he offered the money saying, give me this power also, so that anyone on whom I lay my hands may
32:32
receive the Holy Spirit. But Peter said to him, may your silver perish with you, because you thought
32:39
you could obtain the gift of God with money. You neither have part nor lot in this matter,
32:45
for your heart is not right before God. Repent therefore of this wickedness of yours and pray
32:50
that the Lord, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you. For I see that you are
32:56
in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity, and Simon answered, pray for me to the Lord,
33:03
that none of what you have said may come upon me. Now, when they had testified and spoken the
33:08
word of the Lord, they returned to Jerusalem preaching the gospel to many villages of the
33:12
Samaritans. The big section you stood up at the plate. You just called your shot and you smashed
33:18
it to center field way to go, but it was caught by the center fielder. That's the one thing about
33:21
story that, sorry, just kidding, it was a homer. So let's talk about this. Actually, I'm going to
33:24
default to the mats here, because you all were actually having a discussion about this section
33:28
just a little bit before we hit record. So y'all just kind of flow a little bit on this section here
33:32
about Simon Angel. Yeah. Well, one we know a lot about Simon from extra biblical sources.
33:40
We know he follows Peter to Rome. There are some of the church fathers actually think he's a major
33:47
player in the Gnosticism movement that kind of begins to infiltrate there. So we know a lot
33:51
about this guy. We also know how he dies. He thought he could fly and gathered all his followers and
33:56
went to a tall building in Rome and jumped off. Wait, it didn't work out? Well, here's what's crazy
34:01
to think about. This guy apparently was a true sorcerer. Like he could do things like pharaohs
34:08
magicians. He could match things and do things that had a, I mean, the text told us that he had
34:13
a pretty large following. Like everybody in Samaria knew who this guy was very famous.
34:17
He was looked to as being a powerful man, not regards to economic power or anything like that,
34:24
but he could do magic. He was a true sorcerer in the darkest sense of the word. The thing that Matt
34:30
and I were talking about was that one of the ways the spirits manifesting as Philip is preaching is
34:37
that people who are demonized, those demons are fleeing, screeching as they come out.
34:43
But Simon's didn't come screeching out. And so there's not a lot, I don't know that there's a
34:50
lot to discuss. It was just like, that's a curious, I don't know if like this is the kind that only
34:55
comes out with prayer and fasting or it's a bit of a mystery to me, but it is like Philip's presence
35:00
in preaching is making people manifest as he's proclaiming the gospel. And yet Simon believes he
35:08
sees this and he wants it because my guess is he wants it because he sees that those demons are
35:17
being driven out, maybe feels a little vulnerable. Again, that's conjecture, but that's where I
35:23
would be. I'd be like, man, I want to lose my power. And if those guys are just kicking out the power
35:26
by which I do things, let me get that power. Yeah, I think this is a staunch reminder that
35:34
God forbids the practice of some of these things, not because they're
35:39
hokey and weird and stupid and silly, like these, like they're people all there. Yeah, this is very
35:49
real and it's very demon driven. And I think one of the things I think some of the clues you can get
35:57
is like these people, these people are turning to God and you kind of get some context clues from
36:03
Simon isn't really turning to God with a contrite heart. He is like some modern day schools of thought,
36:10
I can pay $400 a year to be an apostle. And if I can just pay that money to
36:16
is that a website? Yeah, there are. It's gospelplus.com. Okay.
36:20
$999 a month. I've been trying to get that a puzzle title. That's quite work.
36:24
Yeah. Well, I mean, I mean, and again, even today, there are people that that proclaim, like pay,
36:30
if you pay enough, if you if you sow enough seed into this ministry, there it is, you will then receive
36:38
10 fold, 20 fold that. And like, this, this is kind of the start of that. And it kind of, I mean,
36:45
obviously with what Matt's talking about, this is very cult-like. And I mean, clearly, if you're
36:49
taking your people up to the top of a building and saying, Hey, we can fly or drink the juice,
36:56
like that didn't end well for them. No. So when we kind of talked in previous weeks about when
37:02
people get kind of high on their own farts, there are people that are really good at some things.
37:06
And then they assume and other people assume that they're good at all things. So probably one of
37:09
the most prominent examples I've seen in a long time was when Elon Musk was on the Joe Rogan
37:14
experience, and he's talking about fighting Mark Zuckerberg. And he starts talking about different
37:19
grappling positions. And anyone who's grappled for more than a year is going to listen to that
37:25
and be like, wait a minute, he has no idea what he's talking about. And Joe Rogan was very kind of
37:30
diplomatic about it. But it's like, Elon Musk is incredibly smart. He is literally a modern day,
37:35
like Tesla in a lot of ways. And then obviously he has the company of the same thing. But that
37:42
doesn't mean you check all the boxes in every category. And so we default to these people because
37:46
maybe they have an important job, maybe they built a big business. But one thing that I love
37:51
that I learned, Eric actually just learned this week, the main pastor of our church,
37:56
shout out Mark Hitchcock, and the executive pastor of our church, Faith Bible Church here
38:00
in Edmund J. Reisner, neither one of them look at the names of who the givers of the church is.
38:06
And when I first heard that I didn't, it didn't quite compute with me. I'm like, well, why would
38:09
that matter? And they go, they don't want to know who the big givers are. They don't want to know
38:13
them by name. Because when they walk through the congregation, they don't want to be scanning
38:18
for the people that are paying for most of the light bill.
38:21
Does James talk about that? Certainly. Yeah.
38:23
Right. And I think that's the rich people at the front. Right. And I think we give a lot of
38:28
deference to people that have means or to people that have old money or to people that have these
38:33
types of things because we think maybe the Lord has blessed them more. That's why they have money
38:38
or all those things. But we also see in scripture, it's where it's like, look, some of you people
38:41
that are rich down here and got things going on, you've gotten your reward already.
38:45
Like the poor, they're going to get their reward later in heaven. But you're reaping
38:50
like the positive things of your reward now. And you would like to delay that if you could.
38:55
Yes. This is also a reminder of why digging into the Word and knowing what the truth is versus
39:03
what the truth isn't. And knowing the fraudulent because you are so ingrained in the authentic is
39:14
very crucial here. And there is an element of, excuse me, Simon deceiving but also being deceived.
39:24
He had this thought process that he thought this is who God is. And I think there is an element of,
39:29
okay, well, if I can get this, I can gain salvation or I can gain these things. God wants me to have
39:38
these things. So there is a little bit of an element of being deceived. And I think, again,
39:42
we've got to constantly be searching the scripture, being like the Bereans and testing everything
39:46
against the Word. And if you're not in the Word, like get in there and learn the truth so you know it.
39:51
Right. Yeah. Treasury agents spot a counterfeit bill because they know what the real bill looks
39:58
like. The thing I wanted to, I just read an article on this is what popped into my head as we were
40:02
talking with secularism dying on the vine. I mean, everywhere you look, it's broken. The fastest
40:08
growing kind of spirituality right now, we're back to Wiccanism and paganism. It's this. And the
40:16
demonic is very, very real. And we're entering into a season where these kind of powerful displays
40:24
of signs and wonders. And I'm a continuationist. So I'm like a happy Calvinist continuation,
40:30
a bit of a theological mod. And it's fine. But the, but this is demonically driven. And then
40:39
I think it's important to note, I think maybe the thing that I want to everyone to kind of work
40:44
out their salvation with fear and trembling is Simon hasn't come to Jesus because Jesus is his
40:49
treasure. He hasn't found that treasure buried in a field. He hasn't gone away and with great joy
40:55
sold all he had to buy the field. He hadn't done that. What he's done is he's co-opting Jesus
41:02
for what he wants. He's, he's making Jesus a means to me means to it. He's making him his butler or
41:08
is made or that's right. Jeannie in a lamp is an illustration. I try you like he's not that's not
41:13
who Jesus is. And this is the way Simon's coming. So there, there's certainly, I just think on the
41:19
buying salvation thing that's probably in there, I think hopefully Philip's proclamation
41:24
was making it super clear. But I think he just wants this power that he sees. And so he doesn't
41:32
want Jesus. He wants the power. And I think what I've experienced especially among Christians who
41:38
deconstruct is they, they thought Jesus was going to do something or be something that he never said
41:46
he was or promised to be. And then this becomes so disorienting to them and they don't get,
41:51
but they never really came to Jesus because they loved him. Now they'll, when they hear that they're
41:55
going to just come at me that that's not true. But I've had enough conversations now to know,
42:00
no, no, there wasn't like a legitimate, you tell me to go left, I'm going left because I love you.
42:07
You're my guy. Where you go, I go. There wasn't that. It was, yeah, I love Jesus and here are my
42:13
expectations of him. And this is Simon. He's coming and he wants this power. He doesn't want
42:20
Jesus. He wants the signs and wonders, Philip's doing a great book on this subject is The Union
42:25
with Christ by Sinclair Ferguson. He talks about, he talks about a little bit of, we can get to a
42:32
place where we come to Jesus for the things. And we separate him from those where we, okay,
42:38
even even in terms of salvation, I come to Jesus for salvation, but that's not even the right way
42:43
to look at it because Jesus is salvation. You can't separate his qualities from him because he is
42:49
all of those things. And so union with Christ is this, I'm seeking Jesus because I need salvation,
42:56
but he is that. He is salvation. You can't separate that after this is over. Let's,
43:01
let me tell you my Sinclair Ferguson story. Oh, yeah. Write it down. Don't forget,
43:05
but Eric Browning, did a fantastic job of reading a very long section out loud,
43:10
Matt, the pressure has transferred on to the grass mire shoulders because we have an equally
43:14
long section here. What can I ask your question? I guess. Sorry. I'm going to interrupt you.
43:18
Just interrupt me right in the middle of my thing. Hey, man. Go. Hey, do your thing. Go. Go.
43:22
Question about the Holy Spirit. You know, so like, I've always been taught, you know, when I believe
43:29
her comes a believer, they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. So we have the kind of the elephant,
43:33
the room here. It says that the, you know, Peter and John came down for you. Not the Spirit had
43:38
not yet fallen on any of them. They come in. They lay their hands on and they received the Holy Spirit.
43:43
The believers received the Holy Spirit. So what, what's, I'm just curious thoughts on that.
43:48
Because I, I thought, you know, I become a believer. I received the Holy Spirit at the time of that.
43:54
This seems to be a little bit different. Yeah. There is that there's no doubt,
43:59
biblically speaking, that when you become a Christian, you are sealed with the promised Holy
44:06
Spirit unto the day of the Lord that Paul just clearly teaches that in his letter. So that's not
44:13
so much up for a debate. Like passages like this, there are some passages like earlier in the book,
44:21
where it, it appears that they had, well, I mean, the text clearly says that they had,
44:25
they had embraced the gospel of repentance. So John's gospel is what they responded to,
44:30
but not one of saving faith. This passage is a little bit different. What it appears is happening
44:36
here is that we have another Pentecost breaking out in a brand new part. So you got to repeat of
44:42
Acts 1 8 happening here. And so the observable sign signs of regeneration that for whatever reason,
44:54
we see wanting to happen again in Samaria like they did in Jerusalem in 1 8. And so what's
45:01
interesting about the text is it doesn't mention the observable signs. It just notes that they
45:07
weren't there. And so we don't know, is this tongues? Is this prophecy? What's going on here?
45:12
Does everybody think they're drunk after they receive the Holy Spirit like they did in Acts 1 8?
45:17
We don't know, but we do know that this looks like a duplication of what we saw in Acts at Pentecost
45:26
pulled into Samaria. And so to me, this is one of the more unique passages around the Holy Spirit
45:35
coming on someone after an apparent conversion in that I don't know how to make sense of it other
45:42
than that the New Testament is very clear that you receive the Holy Spirit at conversion. You've
45:47
been sealed with it is what the Apostle Paul says. It's not like you're going to get more of it
45:52
or less of it. Now I do think your experience is going to be like a volume knob. There are times
45:57
that the power of the Spirit's elevated in you or muted in you or depending on what God has in
46:05
front of you. But this passage is a unique one. It's the only one that I know of where you see a
46:11
distinction between they believed, but they didn't have the Holy Spirit. And then, okay, now they're
46:16
getting the Holy Spirit and they there weren't the observable signs of the Spirit, which is why
46:22
they sent for the guys from Jerusalem. That's interesting. It says they were only baptized in
46:27
the name of the Lord Jesus, which and obviously Jesus when he commands, he says, baptized in the
46:31
name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. And I always... One is Pentecostals. That's an
46:38
interesting one for me because they believe that... I probably will butcher this, but they don't
46:43
believe in the Trinity the way we believe in the Trinity. They believe it's kind of seems like
46:47
modalism maybe. That's what I would argue it is. Fair enough. So this seems like it's a dispute to
46:54
that. I wonder how they would answer this text like, okay, it says they were only baptized in the
47:01
name of the Lord Jesus. They hadn't been baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
47:06
I don't know. That's just an interesting observation. Yeah, certainly an observation, sure.
47:10
All right. Very good. Well, Matt, go ahead and close out Acts 8. We don't... Yeah, what is that? 26.
47:16
26 is the end. Hit it. Okay.
47:18
Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, rise and go toward the south to the road that goes down
47:26
from Jerusalem to Gaza. This is a desert place and he rose and went and there was an Ethiopian,
47:33
a eunuch, a court official for Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure.
47:39
He had come to Jerusalem to worship and was returning, seated in his chariot and was reading
47:44
the prophet Isaiah. And the Spirit said to Philip, go over and join this chariot. So Philip ran to
47:50
him and heard him reading Isaiah, the prophet and asked, "Do you understand what you are reading?"
47:55
And he said, "How can I unless someone guides me?" And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
48:02
Now the passage of the Scripture that he was reading was this.
48:05
Like a sheep, he was led to the slaughter and like a lamb before its shear is silent,
48:11
so he opens not his mouth. In his humiliation, justice was denied him.
48:16
Who can describe his generation? For his life is taken away from the earth.
48:21
And the eunuch said to Philip, about whom, I ask you, does the prophet say this about himself or
48:27
about someone else? Then Philip opened his mouth and beginning with this Scripture, he told him
48:33
the good news about Jesus. And as they were going along the road, they came to some water and the
48:38
eunuch said, "See here is water. What prevents me from being baptized?" And he commanded the
48:43
chariot to stop and they both went down into the water. Philip and the eunuch and he baptized him.
48:50
And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away and the eunuch
48:54
saw him no more and went on his way rejoicing. But Philip found himself at a zotus and as he passed
49:03
through, he preached the gospel to all the towns until he came to Caesarea. Wherever you want to
49:10
go with this one, there's plenty to talk about. Go for it. Well, my immediate question is,
49:16
how do you know when the Holy Spirit is nudging you? That's different than the whisper. I normally
49:23
hear that kind of in the context of a whisper. It's got a whispering to you, but a nudge. That's
49:27
interesting. Like go do this, you know. I'll say for me specifically, like, it's like you can feel it.
49:36
It's like your own body is talking to you. And so I see that in the context of
49:41
the last example I can think of is there was a homeless person in the parking lot at the
49:47
neighborhood Walmart and was sitting just sitting literally in the middle of parking lot.
49:53
And I'm walking the opposite direction towards the doors and it's like, no, you turn around and
49:56
you walk, you walk to her and you just go talk to her. Or actually, I was another one in Florida
50:00
guy was sitting outside and you know, I'm like, man, you look hungry. You hungry? And I go inside
50:06
and I was in hurry and then I come back out and talked to him a little bit about Jesus and he had
50:10
faith in Christ and all that. And so like for me, it doesn't typically feel like a nudge. It's
50:16
like literally a gut level. You do this or you are blatantly disobeying me kind of a thing,
50:21
which doesn't leave me a whole lot of room. And I've certainly ignored the nudge more than once.
50:27
And so that's how it is for me. How have you historically? Yeah, to me, I would just say that
50:33
it just feels like it's out of nowhere. Yeah. Like I'm not thinking about it. I'm not pondering
50:38
something. I may be thinking about something completely different than it's just boom.
50:42
Yeah. Just all of a sudden, like, where'd that come from? Yeah. Yeah, I agree with it. It's kind
50:47
of a guttural feeling. It is. Like it's like it sometimes can be like a pit, like a pit, like, oh,
50:51
yes. Like, like, I don't know. There are times when you have pits in your stomach, but like when
50:57
you're being nudged or drawn or led, whatever you want to call it, by the Holy Spirit, something
51:01
like, for me, it's like, oh, man, I can't, like you said, I can't ignore this. This like, this
51:06
something is right. If I don't do this, like, well, what's what's it like for like professional
51:09
Christians? Because we're just like minor legalists. And so like, what's wrong? I don't know. I got my
51:12
fine. We make a call. I think I would experience the same way. One of the things that I've learned,
51:19
you know, across the last 30 something years is it's it's rarely a nudge towards something I'm
51:26
really wanting to do at the time. Like, in fact, I can't think of one. Like, I've never got the
51:31
nudge. You should just go get a big rib eye, medium rare. Yes, Lord. And then just take the
51:38
nudge. Just take the night off. Talk about being slain in spirit. All right. So I actually use
51:45
this illustration to open up the Jonah series at the village last weekend. Like, everything I
51:49
love about my life right now, I can trace back to my first real wrestle with the Lord as a 20-year-old.
51:55
Like, I was headed to A&M. I had roommates. I had it was my dream school for reasons we don't have
52:01
time to get into. And I was going and I had Jesus's name all over that. There were Christian guys
52:07
waiting for me there. I didn't leave immediately go off school because I didn't trust myself. I
52:12
mean, I had a background. I was deeply in love for Jesus and deeply compulsive still towards my sin,
52:19
most of which was still secret sin. And then it's I'm reading a book. Everybody's in bed.
52:26
I'm in our living room. And I just got this sense at around 11 o'clock at night.
52:33
That's not what I have for you. And then I meant I, I argue all night long. I mean,
52:40
all night long about how absurd this is about, you know, like the Lord doesn't know. And then
52:44
the round three, the Lord started changing the question, you know, to not A&M is not where we're
52:48
going to do you trust me or you do you not? Are you with me in this? Or are you wanting me to be
52:55
with you in what you have for your life? What does this look like? And again, I didn't feel
53:01
overly rebuked by that, but I didn't feel exposed. Because what I was saying is I've got a vision
53:06
for my life and I want you to fulfill it because I'm thinking about you. I mean,
53:10
I'm going here because I have Christian friends. I'm going here because I know a good church I can
53:13
join. I'm joining. I mean, everything about this was, which was a lot, not everything but a lot
53:18
about this. I've baptized because the stuff you like and but now saying no to that and the stuff
53:26
that followed it led me to Lauren, led me to the village, led me to Josh Patterson is my closest
53:31
friend of 20 years led me to the life that I'm in right now. I say no that night and do what I
53:37
want. I'm sure the Lord's using me. I'm sure, you know, he doesn't, you know, give me leprosy or
53:42
anything. But but because I just said, you know what, I want your vision for my life, not my vision
53:47
for my life. And then what's what's funny is where I have obeyed those nudges. I haven't overthought
53:52
them. I haven't been like, is this the voice of a demon? It's just it's it's there's always been
53:58
some pretty cool fruit on the other end of those stories. So I want to I want to talk a little bit
54:03
about I'm so glad. Excuse me. I'm so glad you brought up the concept of a nudge. I think we were
54:07
talking about this at the act 29 conference about you think you're doing something for other people
54:14
and then you end up doing it for yourself. Yeah. I think you were describing in the context of
54:18
your early days at the village church that your style of preaching and the content of what you
54:23
preached and you think you're preparing your sheet for that boom, you get brain cancer and then you're
54:28
like, Oh, I was preaching that for me. Yeah. He's talking a little bit because that's not a nudge.
54:33
No, like that's a sledgehammer to the front of the Lord. Well, the church, you know, the village in
54:39
my first probably eight years was super young, man. I mean, I didn't do a single funeral for
54:44
someone over the age of 60 for the first decade. I was at the village. Everybody was 32 or eight
54:50
or 17 or 26 or and I had gone to the hospital. One of our members had given birth to a child that
55:00
was severely handicapped, wasn't going to survive it wasn't going to. And so I walked in and this
55:07
woman named Dottie Pons, still at the church, who's the grandmother of this child that was born.
55:12
One of the oldest people in the congregation at like 4850 at the time and she just grabs me
55:20
and starts sobbing into my chest. And man, I'm holding her praying for her. And I just had the
55:28
thought on the drive home, I have to get us ready to suffer in this life. And so then I just started,
55:36
I mean, then I start seeing it everywhere in the Bible. It doesn't matter what I'm preaching on
55:41
or what text I'm in or what they're these warnings, they're these pictures. We blow past so many
55:46
things that you're just like, wait a minute, you just think about that for a second. And like,
55:50
it's almost like the Bible could say, hey, following follow God, it could end badly.
55:53
It's a commercial everywhere. Follow God, it'll end badly. And so I just started highlighting that
56:01
over and over and over again. And the church learned to suffer. And then I had my seizure.
56:07
And it was like, all this work I was doing for them, you were doing for me. And it was a beautiful
56:16
moment between me and the Lord. Well, it wasn't just suffer, it was suffer well. Yeah, that's right.
56:19
That's the big difference. Well, and that was the whole concept, like, how do you suffer well?
56:23
And I buy that felt so prepared in that moment. It wasn't that I wasn't disoriented at times,
56:28
I certainly was disoriented on that journey. And certainly, he cut out of me some things I didn't
56:33
know was in me and discovered on that little journey. But man, I felt ready for that.
56:38
It's interesting when people talk about like, what is God's will for my life, I used to have a
56:43
completely different thought process for that. And I, you know, like what you were saying, Matt,
56:48
like God's will for my life is probably something I want to do that he's going to bless. And
56:55
I've, you know, guys here know that our family's been through some stuff hit. Like, if you want
57:04
to know if you're living God's will for your life, can you answer the question? I'm praying for those
57:09
who have persecuted me. I'm praising you for the downright disgusting things in my view that have
57:18
happened to me. Can I pray for those who have hurt my children? Like, that is a really good
57:25
representation. If you can answer, yes, you're probably you're probably right in the middle of it.
57:29
Right. Right. Right. Where you should be. So then we have a weird view of will, like what is God's
57:36
will for our life. And I think some perspective is sometimes needed. So yeah. Yeah. And I just kept
57:42
thinking of the word abiding in him, you know, just like you alluded to earlier, it's just,
57:49
you know, God is not a genie in a bottle. We don't do things for him so that we get things.
57:54
Sometimes we do things and we don't receive anything. I mean, we read last week. I mean,
58:01
Moses did not receive anything that was promised. On the contrary, right? Like that's the only thing
58:07
you owe in the scripture, like took him up on a mountain, let the clouds part. There she is.
58:12
You're dying up here. That's right. Yeah. You can't go in there. So your your ministry was to
58:18
like wander in the wilderness for 40 years with grumbling complaining people because church folk
58:23
were different back then. That's right. That's exactly right. But I've thought something similar
58:29
as well, just as we wrap to close here, because one of the hardest things for a son is a father
58:35
that's had a big impact, whether that's in business or in ministry or just, you know,
58:39
whatever, maybe there's a good counselor or something like that. But I've thought about a lot where
58:43
when you're building something, so here I'm building a dotted life and this mission to equipment
58:48
to push back darkness and all that kind of stuff. And so you can kind of get into your own head and
58:52
how can I put me in these different positions to have this impact or to do this thing. But
58:57
every now and then I'll get this thought. And I think it might be a nudge. Now that I've heard
59:01
you say that I'm really interested. I think it might be a nudge where it's like, I'm not doing
59:05
this for you. I'm doing this for one of your sons. And I just hear that. And I'm like,
59:09
because we got James and Eli. Yeah. And, you know, generational ministries can be a little
59:14
dangerous. And they could be just like generational businesses. You know, second wave can be better
59:19
than the first third wave is typically a train wreck. But I just keep thinking about to where it's
59:23
just like, Hey, man, you know, your audience, like they're not for you, right? They're for you
59:29
to point to me. And so I love when Joby talks about how Satan was tired of being looked through
59:33
and wanted to be looked to. And then that leads to his fall from grace and to the fall of all
59:39
of humanity as well. And so I just think about those nudges and those nudges may never come to
59:44
fruition in the way that you think. But also it's the Greg Cocle rock and the shoe phenomenon
59:50
to where that person you feel nudge to go talk to, you may not get the falling on their face,
59:56
tears and snot, repentance, and hey, let's find a tub and let's go dunk ourselves in.
1:00:01
That may not be your job. That may not be your role. But you just put a rock in their shoe to be like,
1:00:06
and like I gave my tattoo artist a Bible years back as I knew it was an atheist. And he was just
1:00:11
like, that's weird. Like he just said it out loud. And I'm like, we didn't have like a deep level
1:00:16
conversation, but I got him a Bible with his name on it. Yeah. What if he opens that Bible at some
1:00:20
point? What if the Holy Spirit starts to communicate to him through that and those types of things?
1:00:25
And it's just a nudge. Hey, I feel like you should do this. Okay. Like, and you may not get to see
1:00:30
what it looks like on the back end. And I don't know necessarily that once we're in heaven,
1:00:34
they're going to open up the Rolodex and say, remember all those nudges? Here's what happened
1:00:38
on the back end. Like it's just this is what you're called to do. So you'll be think of Stephen,
1:00:41
like do you think? I mean, if you would have lined those guys up and said, Hey, if you could pick one
1:00:45
guy who's out there who you'd want to convert, I bet that saw would have been one of those guys.
1:00:50
Yeah. I mean, he had he had the equivalent like two PhDs by the time he was like 21 years old, man.
1:00:54
And Stephen didn't get to see the fruition of that. No, like that pebble being placed in Saul shoe,
1:01:00
if you want to call it that, like we have to trust and obey that sometimes Romans 828 doesn't play
1:01:07
out for us on this side of it. That's right. Amen. Well, man, I can't think of a better way to
1:01:11
leave that. But guys, this has been a fantastic discussion of the acts a but Matt Chandler, thank
1:01:15
you so much for spending some time here this week with me and my crew. This has been a fantastic
1:01:19
thing to be here at the table. So let's not make this the last time that you're here at this table.
1:01:23
But we need parting words from you from your first jaunt at the forging table. Listen,
1:01:27
learn to love the word of God. I mean, I would just, it's one thing to study it. It's one thing to
1:01:34
try to dissect it. And it, but man, learn to see the God of the Bible and love it.
1:01:40
And I think the way you're describing and encourage people to do it is the way that you get on that
1:01:47
path is reading the Bible with, I think theology is meant to do in community, meant to be done in
1:01:51
community, not just by yourself. So don't brush out by a systematic book. No, open up your Bible,
1:01:56
get with a group of men and get after it. And that's what we try to do here. Yeah, absolutely.
1:02:02
So keep going, brothers. Very glad you're a part of it. Guys, thank you for being a part of
1:02:06
it as well. And thank you all to the listeners and the viewers as well. But come back here next
1:02:10
week, prepare to discuss and to listen to our discussion about acts nine. But before we let you
1:02:14
go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost. Adam Daunton life remission is equipping men to
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Few links, we've got the crossway starter set. So if you want to start your own forging table,
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if you want to do theology in a group setting, those types of things we got with crossway
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to create this five book forging table starter set, you can get that entire set for half off,
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check it out in the show notes, you'll get the instructions. Also, the Logos Bible software,
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